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NANCY GRACE

Photos Found of Tot Mom Partying After Child`s Disappearance

Aired July 30, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for six long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Let the good times roll! Stunning photos surface, Caylee`s mom smiling for the cameras and celebrating, celebrating repeatedly at a local nightclub. Here`s the kicker. All the clubbing caught on camera is after little Caylee disappears. Well, it looks like Casey Anthony`s search for her daughter, Caylee, includes under every barstool at the club.

Also tonight, more jailhouse phone calls. This time, mom, Casey, explaining why she doesn`t know the baby-sitter`s phone number. Remember the baby-sitter who she says stole little Caylee?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, BROTHER: I understand that we don`t -- in today`s day and age, you don`t really memorize cell phones since you have it programmed in -- you know numbers, you program in yourself.

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING CHILD`S MOTHER: Very much so.

LEE ANTHONY: Would she have been programmed in your cell phone?

CASEY ANTHONY: She was programmed into that other phone that we need to find a way to recover. I mean, I don`t know...

LEE ANTHONY: Help me with tat, actually. You said that you referred to it as your "black jack"?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes. It was a black jack. I`d only had it for probably a week, week-and-a-half. It didn`t keep its charge, so that`s why I started using that other phone.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: Well, on the black jack, do you remember the phone number that the black jack was associated with?

CASEY ANTHONY: It was my same number. I just swapped the sim card back and forth.

LEE ANTHONY: OK. Here`s the thing, how these things work, Casey. The contact information -- the contact stuff is on your sim card, so if you switched it back and forth...

CASEY ANTHONY: It doesn`t always save to the sim card. You can sometimes save things to the sim card or save it specifically to the phone. It just depends on the way the phone`s set up. I thought abut that, too. The phone that I`m currently using, where I guess that the police still have or you guys have it, I had set it up after the fact to just save things to my sim card. But you can also save it to just the phone or to the sim card and the phone, so there`s copies on both.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: What is she saying?

And tonight, a beloved preacher`s wife turns up in a freezer, but for years, he`s been telling congregations she died in childbirth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yellow tape now surrounds the home where police believe a family lived a tortured life. Anthony Hopkins lived here with his eight children. Police discovered something gruesome, the body of a woman in a freezer. Police believe the body was Hopkins`s wife, Arletha (ph). Police say they found the body in a freezer like this one. They say it was wrapped in a sheet in a utility room behind the house. Now police are searching the family`s home, hoping to uncover more dark secrets.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had a victim present at our offices who complained about an ongoing case of sexual abuse that had taken place over many years.

Well, they`re in protective custody. Obviously, I`m sure that the situation has been an ordeal for them, but they`re certainly better off than they were. There`s no question about that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for six long weeks. Tonight: Let the good times roll. Stunning photos surface, Caylee`s mom smiling for the cameras, repeatedly celebrating at a local nightclub, this after little Caylee disappears.

And more jailhouse phone recordings reveal mom, Casey, trying her best to explain why she has no idea what the baby-sitter`s number is, the baby- sitter who she says stole little Caylee.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: So this black jack -- where did you -- you said that you reported it missing and lost. Give me the information so I can find the phone.

CASEY ANTHONY: OK. The last time I know I had it for certain, I was up at Universal.

LEE ANTHONY: For work or for otherwise?

CASEY ANTHONY: I was in through the park, talking to just a couple of mutual friends up there.

LEE ANTHONY: So you were up there for fun or whatever?

CASEY ANTHONY: It wasn`t necessarily fun, but yes, not through work at that moment.

LEE ANTHONY: I got you. OK. I understand.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know I had it at Jay Blanchard Park. I don`t remember where the very last place is I had it.

LEE ANTHONY: Where did you get this phone from? Like, how was it provided to you?

CASEY ANTHONY: Through the AT&T store.

LEE ANTHONY: Was this a phone -- is this another personal cell phone or yours?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: If you lost the physical phone itself, aside from searching for it, how would you go about finding this? How should I go about finding your phone?

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know. That`s the thing. I mean, if I knew specifically where it was -- I mean, my last recollection of me having it was at Universal, but I knew that I had also been at Jay Blanchard Park, and I could have potentially had it there with me, too. I don`t know if you guys have checked through, like, some of the bags and stuff that I have at the house with me, if maybe it was in one of those purses. But I know I kept everything that I had kind of centralized at Tony`s.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: Casey, if you had your black jack with you and you lost your black jack but you still have your sim card in your other phone -- I`m trying just to figure out why you wouldn`t have -- why you wouldn`t lose both, you know what I mean?

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, that`s the thing. If it fell out of my bag, if it fell out of my pocket. It`s a decent-size phone, almost the size of the phone that you have now. It could have easily fallen out of my purse.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: It just keeps getting more and more bizarre. These are the photos we were telling you about, photos that were apparently taken after little Caylee disappears. This, I guess, is part of mom, Casey`s, search for her little girl there at Fusion nightclub.

Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk. Mark, what`s the latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK: Well, the latest, of course, is those pictures surfacing this morning, which really knocked everybody`s socks off. They were taken by a photographer who goes out on Friday nights and takes pictures, and he just happened to run into Casey there at the nightclub. From what we understand, the boyfriend, Tony, was a DJ there, and she would tag along with him.

There`s been that story. The other story has been that she promoted a little bit. She was there to draw some people in because she was one of the beautiful people. So that`s up in the air. You know, and the pictures were obtained from a Flickr account.

The other thing -- the other big news story was the fact that there will not be a second bond hearing for Casey Anthony. The attorney went to court, the fifth circuit court in Daytona Beach, and after looking at a couple of things, even Bill McCollum (ph), the state attorney general, sent a message to the justices there this morning saying that she`s a person of interest, bail is not unreasonably high, and she holds the key to finding Caylee. Also the appeals judges got the psychological report around 11:00 o`clock this morning. That, of course, has not been released.

And those are the big things right there. And the sim card thing -- that just absolutely blows my mind due to the fact that I don`t know anybody who changes out sim cards if they have two phones.

GRACE: You know -- and everybody, a sim card, as you al know, is about that big. It`s the width of a piece of paper, the thickness of a piece of paper. It`s maybe a quarter of an inch, a half an inch square.

And let me get this straight, Nikki Pierce, joining us from WDBO. She`s claiming that she swapped a sim card from one phone to the next and that she must have lost one phone and she had another phone from AT&T, and she doesn`t know where they are and it must have fallen out of her pocketbook -- and her dog ate the homework, right?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: That`s essentially what she`s claiming, the dog ate the homework. We`re just learning about the cell phone shell game that`s happening, but she said she saved the numbers to the cell phone, as opposed to the sim card, and then she lost the cell phone. And it`s very difficult to understand why she didn`t have this baby-sitter`s phone number.

GRACE: Out to Vince Velazquez, homicide detective, Atlanta. Vince, is that even possible, to save phone call -- phone numbers -- like, in your memory, on your cell phone, to save numbers to a cell phone that doesn`t have a sim card in it?

VINCE VELAZQUEZ, HOMICIDE DETECTIVE, ATLANTA METRO AREA: No, you would have to have the phone powered up. And you can save a phone number either on a sim card or the phone memory. You have to choose. So that portion is correct.

But you know, just listening to that conversation with her brother, she contradicts herself. First she says she swapped the sim card out. Then she says, Well, maybe I lost my phone. The brother even said he didn`t -- he couldn`t make sense of that because he was trying to ask her, Well, wouldn`t you have swapped -- if you lost the phone, the sim card would have been lost, as well. So that -- it`s very bizarre. It`s just two different stories that make absolutely no sense at all.

GRACE: And back to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk. Mark, last night, the grandmother, Cindy Anthony had, a lot of revelations, one of them being that they totally believe that their daughter, Casey, has nothing to do with the disappearance of Caylee. What else can you tell us?

WILLIAMS: Well, last night on one of the cable news shows, she told Larry King that she still believes Casey is alive and that -- or Caylee is alive and she is still with the baby-sitter. But nobody can get in touch with this baby-sitter, who police over the past couple of weeks have not been able to find. They`ve tracked everything down. Even your staff has called a lot of folks. And they cannot find this person. This person has disappeared into mid-air. And you know, again, she holds the key to finding Caylee.

GRACE: Well, the mother also stated -- the grandmother also stated that other people are involved. What other people? Don`t you think police would have put out an all-points bulletin on the other people that are involved in the kidnapping, the so-called kidnapping? Why are they being kept a secret?

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, the first thing when we have a missing child here in the state of Florida, police issue a "BOLO," "be on the look out for," and they also issue an Amber Alert. That has not been done in this case whatsoever.

You know, she said several -- last week that she was protecting her family. Who knows? This girl, again, has told so many fabrications, has told so many lies, there`s so many twists and turns in this case, you don`t know who to believe anymore.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to psychotherapist -- psychologist Caryn Stark. Caryn, take a look at these photos. Do you see Casey Anthony partying hearty, shooting the party sign?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: I do, Nancy.

GRACE: This is after Caylee, her daughter, disappears into thin air. What does it suggest to you, Caryn Stark?

STARK: This is a person who is not having a traumatic experience, Nancy. She`s having a really good time without a care on her mind. So she does not look like a mother who has lost her daughter.

GRACE: Now, let me remind everybody that Casey Anthony has been charged only with child neglect, a couple of other related charges. She is not charged with kidnapping. She is not charged with murder.

But Caryn Stark, do you recall the motivation in the murder in the Susan Smith case?

STARK: The motivation was a boyfriend in the Susan Smith case. Do you feel this is similar, Nancy?

GRACE: Well, the boyfriend in this case, Anthony Lazaro (ph), had no idea -- and Casey Anthony had been in and out of his home for the last five to six weeks. He had no idea Caylee was missing. He didn`t know anything about her search for Caylee.

STARK: And so there is a possibility that there`s a similar experience going on here.

GRACE: And again, she has not been charged with murder at this juncture.

To Thomas in Canada. Hi, Thomas.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was wondering, has anybody thought where she went on that shopping spree with her mother`s credit cards, could she have left Caylee in the car in the heat, came back, found her dead and panicked?

GRACE: Interesting question. Let`s go out to Dr. Joshua Perper, medical examiner and author. Dr. Perper, thank you for being with us. It`s a pleasure to see you.

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Sure.

GRACE: If the child died under that scenario -- the cadaver dog hit in the trunk of the car, not on the inside of the car. What does that mean to you?

PERPER: Well, if this indeed happened, there might be some signs of the fact that the child was reposed (ph) there and there was some bleeding or some oozing from tissue which broke down, decomposed tissue. This would be evidence which possibly could be detected.

GRACE: You know, Vince Velazquez, joining us from Atlanta, homicide detective -- Vince, don`t you think out of a shopping mall that someone would have seen the little girl in the car?

VELAZQUEZ: Yes, I don`t see that -- you know, if it`s a shopping day and there`s a lot of people there, I think the police would have been alerted. And you know, that whole thing with the trunk of the car -- and I`ve got to tell you, I`ve smelled decomposing bodies, and it`s a smell that you just can never forget.

GRACE: Yes. There`s no way it smells like an old pizza. I can tell you that much.

VELAZQUEZ: No. Absolutely not.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Kristie in Texas. Hi, Kristie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I was just wondering if Casey was living with Amy and Ricardo Morales (ph). I`ve read a lot of information about that, and I know they have all have, like, MySpace pages and Facebook, and they have a lot of information on there. And I was just wondering if they have information where -- where was she living at the time, at the beginning of June, when all of this started happening?

GRACE: You know, Kristie in Texas, I spoke with the grandmother, Cindy Anthony, and tried so hard to get it out of her where Casey had been for these four to five weeks. I really believe the grandmother, Cindy Anthony. I don`t think she knows. I don`t think that Casey Anthony has revealed to anybody where she`s been that whole time.

I want to go back out to you, Mark Williams. What can you tell us about the Moraleses?

WILLIAMS: This is the first time I`ve heard of this, about the Moraleses. I have not gone on anybody`s MySpace page or Facebook page.

But one thing did come up yesterday. When Casey Anthony was back in an Orange County courtroom with her lawyer, trying to get all these 911 tapes and everything else suppressed, her jailhouse conversations, the videos that they take, she -- an inmate talked to her. Twenty-year-old Travis Nichols (ph) talked to her because they were all in holding cells. And Travis says, Where`s the baby, Casey? She says, I don`t have the baby, my boyfriend has the baby. So that`s another development which has popped up over the last couple of hours.

GRACE: Well, it`s my understanding Anthony Lazaro, the boyfriend, has been fully cooperating with police.

WILLIAMS: Yes, he has been very, very up front about everything. They`ve searched his apartment, police have. They`ve talked to the neighbors of Anthony Lazaro, and thus far, there`s been no body, there`s been no cell phones left behind in Anthony`s place. And the deal is, you know, this guy`s a stand-up citizen, a stand-up guy.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Not only do these stunning photos come out -- caught on camera, Casey Anthony partying, this is after her little girl, she says, disappears into thin air, being kidnapped by the so-called baby-sitter, this is part of her search for the little girl -- but more stunning phone conversations recorded from the jail. Take a listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: I understand that we don`t -- in today`s day and age, you don`t really memorize cell phones since you have it programmed in. You know numbers that you program in yourself.

CASEY ANTHONY: Very much so.

LEE ANTHONY: Would she have been programmed in your cell phone?

CASEY ANTHONY: She was programmed into that other phone that we need to find a way to recover. I mean, I don`t know...

LEE ANTHONY: Help me with that, actually. You said that you referred to it as your "black jack"?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes. It was a black jack. I`d only had it for probably a week, a week-and-a-half. It didn`t keep its charge, so that`s why I started using that other phone.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: Casey, if you had your black jack with you and you lost your black jack, but you still have your sim card in your other phone -- I`m trying just to figure out why you wouldn`t have -- why you wouldn`t lose both, you know what I mean?

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, that`s the thing. If it fell out of my bag, if it fell out of my pocket. It`s a decent-size phone, almost the size of the phone that you have now. It could have easily fallen out of my purse.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: The significant of this jailhouse phone recording is that the baby-sitter`s phone numbers and information were allegedly stored on that phone, and now it`s lost.

Let`s unleash the lawyers -- Susan Moss out of New York, Alan Ripka, defense attorney out of New York, Christopher Amolsch out of Washington, D.C. Susan Moss, weigh in.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: She hits the sauce while her child is lost. You`ve got to be kidding me. If you believe the grandma`s timeline -- and so far, she seems to be the only one who`s playing it straight -- then this woman was out clubbing while her child was missing. Now, she went on and on that she went and searched everywhere for her child. Apparently, it was just in the bottom of a bottle.

GRACE: Alan Ripka, these photos, to my mind, are damning. This is when her child has just been reported missing, disappeared.

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, first of all, these are photos that show someone who most likely did not murder or harm her child. So I`m happy to see these photos because, obviously, she believes her child is safe and in the arms of somebody. So I don`t mind these photos, Nancy.

GRACE: Wait. No, no. Liz, please put Ripka`s -- OK, would you repeat that, please, so I can actually look at you when you say that?

RIPKA: Nancy, this is not an individual who`s acting like she had anything to do with the disappearance or...

GRACE: Really? Because I`ve seen plenty of killers yucking it up in a bar right after the murder.

RIPKA: Nancy, this is a woman whose family has told you and has told the public that she`s been a loving mother, no history of any problems.

GRACE: OK.

RIPKA: She didn`t go out and harm her child and then go to a bar and smile.

GRACE: Christopher Amolsch, can you actually agree with that?

CHRISTOPHER AMOLSCH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I agree with that in some degree, but I also think that everybody deals with grief differently. You know, if this woman is really grieving for her child -- I mean, everybody does it differently. And I appreciate the psychiatrist or psychologist...

GRACE: I guess she does it with a beer and a push-up bra.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can Tony tell me anything?

CASEY ANTHONY: Honey, Tony doesn`t know anything, and I haven`t even talked to him since this morning.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Has Tony seen Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: Tony hasn`t seen Caylee since the beginning of June.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: If you lost the physical phone itself, aside from searching for it, how would you go about finding this? How should I go about finding your phone?

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know. That`s the thing. I mean, if I knew specifically where it was -- I mean, my last recollection of me having it was at Universal, but I knew that I had also been at Jay Blanchard Park, and I could have potentially had it there with me, too. I don`t know if you guys have checked through, like, some of the bags and stuff that I have at the house with me, if it was in one of those purses. But I know I kept everything that I had kind of centralized at Tony`s.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: These stunning phone calls just released from the jailhouse recordings.

Out to the lines, Kimberly in Pennsylvania -- uh-oh. Gary in Wisconsin. Hi, Gary.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. We love your show!

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you for watching, and thank you for calling in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here`s my question. If the cadaver dogs, which we know only scent the scent of human remains, if it wasn`t Caylee`s body then in the trunk, then who else`s would it be?

GRACE: You know, that`s the million-dollar question. What about it, Nikki Pierce?

PIERCE: Well, investigators don`t think it could possibly be anyone else`s, but they are sending out some samples of a stain that was found there and some hair that matched Caylee`s, preliminarily, to the FBI lab and the FDLE lab -- that`s the Florida state lab -- so that they can take a look and find out what`s going on there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, BROTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: So this Black Jack, where did you -- you said that reported it missing and lost. Give me the information so I can find this phone.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING 2-YEAR-OLD CAYLEE: OK. The last time I know I had it for certain I was up at Universal.

L. ANTHONY: For work or for otherwise?

C. ANTHONY: I was in through the park talking to just a couple of mutual friends up there.

L. ANTHONY: So you were up there for fun or whatever.

C. ANTHONY: It wasn`t necessarily fun but yes, not through work at that moment.

L. ANTHONY: I gotcha. OK. I understand.

C. ANTHONY: I know I had it at Jay Blanchard Park. I don`t remember where the very last places that I had it.

L. ANTHONY: Where did you get this phone from? Like how was it provided to you?

C. ANTHONY: Through the AT&T store.

L. ANTHONY: Was this a phone -- is this another personal cell phone of yours?

C. ANTHONY: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: How much more of this can police tolerate?

That is a recorded phone call by Casey Anthony, the mom, speaking to her brother, who`s trying to help her. He`s trying to find out about her cell phone that may have the mysterious baby-sitter`s phone calls recorded on it, logged in it, memorized in it.

Let`s unleash the lawyers, Susan Moss, Alan Ripka, Christopher Amolsch.

Alan Ripka, that is the biggest line of BS. There`s no other way to put it. She goes around and around and around about trying to explain how she doesn`t know where her phone is, maybe the SIM card fell out of her pocket, the phone`s pretty big, how`d she lose it.

You know it`s a big lie.

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t know that, Nancy. I think at the end of the day, people can lose phones and it`s not such a big deal. Furthermore, we know as a fact that she did have a nanny or a baby-sitter who helped to take care of the child.

So who is that.

GRACE: Oh, really, how do we know that for a fact?

RIPKA: So who is that person?

GRACE: No. How do you know that as a fact? The mother -- the grandmother, the grandfather, the neighbor, whom I interviewed, nobody, the boyfriend that she was living with, the Morales, the caller called in earlier, Kristi from Texas, that`s her ex-boyfriend and his current girlfriend -- none of them had ever seen the baby-sitter.

So have you -- did you know who the baby-sitter is, Alan Ripka?

RIPKA: I don`t know who the baby-sitter is, but it certainly makes sense that a mother with a baby will have a baby-sitter to assist her. That`s certainly not out of the ordinary, Nancy.

GRACE: And pay the baby-sitter with what? She`s stealing gasoline out of her family`s cars.

RIPKA: Well, Nancy, I`m sure she has some money to pay a baby-sitter.

GRACE: Why? Why are you sure?

RIPKA: She had a very supportive family.

GRACE: OK.

RIPKA: Obviously, her family are very supportive by all their actions in this particular matter, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, they are being supportive of her, but that doesn`t mean that they were supporting her financially at the time. The grandmother and grandfather had already let her move back in.

RIPKA: Well, Nancy, obviously, she was supporting her baby. She had to have some money to do that. She need food, she needed clothes.

GRACE: She was getting all that from her mother.

RIPKA: Well, she got it from somewhere, right?

GRACE: Yes, but money to pay a baby-sitter and not one acquaintance, Susan Moss, not relatives, nobody has seen the baby-sitter, Zenaida Fernandez Gonzales.

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: This woman puts the I in lie. Everything that comes out of this woman`s mouth is absolutely contradictory and a lie.

Not one single person has seen this baby-sitter. They can`t find where she allegedly lived. They can`t find any idea of this woman. There`s no picture of her that is recognized by Casey. This is all a big lie.

And what`s scary, what is most scary about this is that this woman seems to think she`s going to get away this. It`s not going to happen.

GRACE: What about it, Chris Amolsch?

CHRISTOPHER AMOLSCH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It just seems like if she`s going to lie, there`s a whole lot easier lies to tell than this. I mean this is fairly evolved. My SIM card falling.

GRACE: What, that`s your defense? She could come out with a better lie?

AMOLSCH: Well, if she`s going to lie, I mean, why not just say, I lost my cell phone, it got stolen, instead of going through the whole SIM card.

GRACE: Well, you know what.

AMOLSCH: . if it wasn`t actually true.

GRACE: It`s interesting.

AMOLSCH: Why not just say, I was with Caylee, I turned around and she disappeared at the mall I was shopping at. I mean there`s so many easier ways to lie about this than that.

GRACE: Caryn Stark, I`ve seen this a million times on the stand in court. When people are lying, they don`t know to keep it simple stupid. They just go on and on and suddenly the lie gets bigger and bigger and more detailed.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Nancy, it`s a textbook example of a pathological liar. If you ever saw on "Saturday Night Live," -- do you remember the guy who was the liar?

GRACE: Yes.

STARK: And he would go on and on and on and keep changing his story. I was there, well, I was close. Well, maybe I was not there but I spoke to them on the phone.

That`s what she`s doing. She just keeps twisting her story and trying to make it sound authentic.

GRACE: I mean, Caryn, I know in your practice you must have seen this a million times, but when you`re hearing her on the phone, how does it strike you?

STARK: It strikes me as somebody who`s trying to get herself out of a jam. And she`s used to doing this. You could tell because she`s very quick in coming up with another explanation.

Well, I was here, I wasn`t really having fun, but I was not there for work. And she just keeps turning it around.

GRACE: Well, and the fact that she says Universal -- she claimed to work there at Universal there in Florida, but that was over two years ago that she was fired.

Out to the lines, Kimberly in Pennsylvania. Hi, Kimberly.

KIMBERLY, PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, honey, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

KIMBERLY: I was listening to the sound bites about her in the park.

GRACE: Yes.

KIMBERLY: . and losing her phone. I hope to god this child is alive.

GRACE: I do, too.

KIMBERLY: But what -- if this child has passed and the mom has done something to that child, is it possible that she buried the child in that park and that`s where the phone is?

GRACE: You know, Caryn Stark, have you noticed that when people are lying, they work in bits of the truth?

STARK: Well, they can`t help it because somewhere they begin to stick to their story, but what happens is they keep going round and round and round. So you might get a little bit of the smoke with the fire, but you won`t get the real, honest truth, Nancy.

GRACE: I want to go back to Dr. Joshua Perper, joining us out of Miami, Florida, a renowned medical examiner and author.

Dr. Perper, a concern is, of course, we all want Caylee to be alive. That`s a given. We want this fantastic story she`s telling to be true.

If she`s not alive, at what point will a body decompose so you really cannot tell cause of death?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Well, it depends again in what environment the body was deposed, because in the air, it`s going to decompose much more than it decomposes in the water and much less in the ground. But probably in the Florida climate, in several weeks, maybe eight weeks, nine weeks or more, you will be left with basically skeletal remains or skeleton with very little tissue.

GRACE: You know, Dr. Perper, as you are describing that possibility, I`m just looking at these shots of Casey Anthony living it up at a local bar.

To Mark Williams with WNBD -- Mark, we`ve just gotten more jailhouse recordings while we are on air. I want you and Nikki Pierce to take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: This morning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)

C. ANTHONY: Hey, no big deal, you know, tell you that I miss you. And.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, some of the stuff that we, you know, talked about before, you know, if there`s anything additional or at this moment, I mean, I only have a lot of my notes with my right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, to Mark and Nikki -- first to you, Mark Williams, that`s more relatives trying to get information. They even say, don`t be general, be specific.

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, you know, and you know, Casey has not been playing it straight. And all during these jailhouse conversations, everybody has been pumping her for information. They should probably work for the sheriff`s department, because they`re getting more information out of them -- out of Casey than the sheriff`s office investigators are.

However, the one thing, Nancy, is the fact that if she had a cell phone or if she had two cell phones, they ought to be able to go back to the cell phone provider and pull those numbers where she called. She probably also had detailed billing, so they ought to be able to find her bills and see who she called.

GRACE: You know, to Nikki Pierce with WDBO Radio -- Nikki, last night Cindy Anthony mentioned on air -- this is the grandmother -- that the family had the cell phone records and that they were disturbed that police had not released them to the public.

Why can`t the family release them to the public?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, that`s a good question and I`m not entirely certain if they could release them to the public or not or if they have copies of that.

GRACE: Well, I`m pretty sure -- I`m pretty sure, to Alan Ripka, that if the family has the cell phone records that we`re all talking about, that could prove or disprove the existence of a nanny, they could just send them straight on over to Mark Williams with WNBD or Nikki Pierce with WDBO and I`m sure they`d publish them.

RIPKA: I agree with you, Nancy. I think if they have those records they can release them to the public or an investigator to dial the numbers in those records and determine whether or not they could find this baby- sitter.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: I mean, as far as I`m concerned here, I don`t really know on that level. I guess, understandably, just being out of contact, but, I mean, as far as I`m concerned, nothing`s really changed on that level. So -- and if anything does, I`ll let you know.

L. ANTHONY: All right. I`ve talked with pretty much everybody at this point.

C. ANTHONY: OK.

L. ANTHONY: Most of them on a regular basis, and at least most people within the last few days or day. So I`m definitely, you know, just trying to get my bearings and everything like that with everybody.

C. ANTHONY: OK.

L. ANTHONY: But you know if there`s anything you think that I should look into or follow up on.

C. ANTHONY: Yes, I`ll definitely let you know if things come up if anything goes at all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Sounds like her brother, basically, begging her for more information in the search for their little girl, 2-year-old little Caylee.

You are hearing just-released phone calls. We are getting them as we are on air right now from the jailhouse. These are public records and there`s a recording on every phone call there, telling you you are being monitored.

Out to the lines, Kimberly in Pennsylvania. Hi, Kimberly. Uh-oh, Marilyn in New York, hi, Marilyn.

MARILYN, NEW YORK RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. On a much lighter note very quickly, I just want to say that your babies are just beautiful and I thank you for sharing the photos with us. It`s just great.

GRACE: Thank you, thank you very much. Thank you.

MARILYN: On a more somber note, I haven`t heard anything about a police interview with the boyfriend, Tony.

GRACE: OK. This is what I know, Marilyn in New York. I know that we have been told repeatedly that Anthony Lazaro has been completely cooperative with police. Translation -- they`ve interviewed him, they`ve gone to his apartment, they`ve searched his apartment and he allowed them to do that.

Mark Williams with WNDB, isn`t it correct that the boyfriend that she`s been in and out of his apartment since she went AWOL from her home says he had no idea Caylee was missing?

WILLIAMS: Apparently not. The deal was at one time, apparently, Casey took Caylee swimming at the complex where Tony Lazaro lives, but from that point on, he hasn`t seen Caylee or heard from Caylee and, you know, he -- again, you hit it on the head. He is cooperating. He would love to give more information, but he`s at a standstill, too.

And the phone calls that we`ve heard this afternoon or this evening is the fact that she is trying to placate her brother and her family. She says, well, if something comes up, I`ll let you know.

How the heck does she know if anything`s going to come up because she`s sitting in the Orange County jail right now?

GRACE: And you`re seeing, everyone, photos of Casey Anthony out partying hardy, this is after she says her little girl was kidnapped by the baby-sitter. Here she is at a local bar yucking it up.

Everybody, we are taking your calls live.

And very quickly, I want to switch gears and tell you about another story tonight. A beloved pastor`s wife turns up dead in the freezer. For years he`s been telling people she died in childbirth.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: By the name of Anthony Hopkins was arrested, detained in Jackson, Alabama. We believe that the body to be that of a black female, 36 years of age, of Arletha Hopkins.

We are treating this as a homicide at this point. All we know is that we had a body in a freezer.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Incredible. Out to Robert McClendon with the "Press-Register" there in Mobile. What happened?

ROBERT MCCLENDON, STAFF WRITER, PRESS-REGISTER: Well, we just recently got more facts in the case. They released a court document, the affidavit that led to the search warrant that led to the police finding that body in the freezer.

Apparently, a female relative had been being raped by this pastor and she was 11 years old, according to the document. And the -- Arletha Hopkins, the wife, caught him in the act in the bathroom in 2004 and they had an argument after which he presumably killed her.

According to the court document, he, the next morning, asked her to help him hide her body in the freezer. That was in 2004. So apparently the mother`s been in there since 2004.

GRACE: You know, this is an incredible story and there is a family of several children.

Joining me right now is a very special guest. It is Chief Philip M. Garrett with the Mobile, Alabama Police Department.

Chief, thank you for being with us. How many children are in this family?

PHILLIP M. GARRETT, CHIEF OF POLICE, MOBILE POLICE DEPARTMENT: We believe there`s eight children.

GRACE: And all this time, they`ve been living in the home with the mom in the freezer?

GARRETT: It appears that way for 3 1/2 to maybe 4 years.

GRACE: Chief, have you ever seen anything like it?

GARRETT: I`ve seen some things that were close to it, but I think the totality of this situation is more than I`ve ever seen.

GRACE: To have the mom in the freezer. How were you alerted? Why would you go just look in somebody`s freezer?

GARRETT: Well, one of the family members came forward on Monday afternoon and told us that there was some things going on at home and, in fact, that the mother and the wife were -- she was in the freezer.

GRACE: You know, Dr. Joshua Perper is with us, everyone, chief medical examiner joining us out of Miami.

Dr. Perper, it`s my understanding they are saying they cannot determine cause of death. If she has been in the freezer, many people believe that that completely protects the body and preserves it.

Why can`t you get a cause of death?

PERPER: Well, they would have to defrost the body and after the body is defrosted, they will have to work very fast, because afterward, decomposition changes -- set in very, very rapidly.

So, yes, in my opinion, after that, they would be able to see what was the apparent cause of death whether there was strangulation or blunt force trauma or stabbing or any other cause of death.

GRACE: When you`ve got a body that has frozen, Dr. Perper, do you have to work even faster at determining COD once it is thawed?

PERPER: Yes, because once the body gets defrosted after a long period of freezing, the post-mortem changes of deterioration.

GRACE: Right.

PERPER: . take place very, very fast so you don`t want to be faced with that defect which might be.

GRACE: Right.

PERPER: . thought to be injuries, when, in fact, they are not.

GRACE: Chief Garrett, at this juncture, what is he charged with?

GARRETT: He was booked on murder yesterday morning. We have since followed up with rape, incest, sexual abuse, I believe, and maybe sodomy.

GRACE: With us, Chief Phillip Garrett with the Mobile Police Department.

We are taking your calls live. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Out to the lines, Ebony in North Carolina, hi, dear.

EBONY, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hi. I love your show, Nancy.

GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question?

EBONY: My question is about this family member that came forward. I just wanted to know how that person knew and why it took them so long to come forward with the information about the body in the freezer?

GRACE: To Chief Garrett, I don`t want to reveal the identity of the person that came forward. But wouldn`t you agree that they had actually seen the body in the freezer?

GARRETT: Indications were that there was good evidence that the person had actually seen the body in the freezer.

GRACE: Chief, where are all the children tonight?

GARRETT: Well, the children are in protective custody and that was one of the main concerns we had, is that to get the children protected and out of harm`s way.

GRACE: Chief, what kind of preacher is he?

GARRETT: I`m not certain. I`m not sure about that.

GRACE: Just please don`t say Methodist, please.

GARRETT: No, I`m not sure. He was actually preaching, I believe, at a revival of some sorts at night.

GRACE: Well, that could be anything, chief.

GARRETT: Yes.

GRACE: So you had him arrested right there in the middle of the service?

GARRETT: We were trying to get the children away from him because we`re not sure what kind of state of mind he was in.

GRACE: Chief Garrett, I know it`s been a long time since this woman was committed but, at least now, finally some answers.

Chief, thank you for being with us, Robert McClendon with the "Press- Register" as well.

Let`s stop and remember Army Corporal William O`Brien, just 19, Rife, Texas, killed in Iraq. Awarded the Bronze Star and Purple Heart. A smile that light a room, loved the outdoors, making people laugh and golf. A junior PGA player, his motto, family first, golf second.

Leaves behind parents, Thomas and Dawn, one sister, four brothers, two serving in Iraq.

William O`Brien, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for inviting all of us into your homes. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END