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Protests Growing Over Prop 8; Auto Industry Running Out of Gas

Aired November 12, 2008 - 19:00:00   ET


JANE VELEZ MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the fight to give gays the right to marry hits a fever pitch nationwide. Thousands converge on New York City`s Mormon temple, incensed over the millions the Mormon Church poured into passing Prop 8. Now, the church claims it`s being persecuted.

Plus, millions of American jobs hang in the balance, as our nation grapples with the question, should we bail out the big three automakers? One shocking reason a U.S. car bailout might be doomed to fail.

Here`s a hint...


VELEZ MITCHELL: And more fallout from the stunning hidden camera expose of the chief suspect in Natalee Holloway`s disappearance. We watch Joran Van Der Sloot allegedly luring girls into prostitution. Natalee`s dad joins us to discuss how this could help his missing daughter`s case.

Those issues, and a whole lot more.


VELEZ MITCHELL: Natalee Holloway`s father weighs on the shocking video I showed you last night of Joran Van Der Sloot, the prime suspect in his daughter`s disappearance. Hear what he has to say in just a bit.

And hate in America, a killing during part of a gruesome initiation rites of the KKK. The horrific details straight ahead.

But first, protests have not let up over California`s gay marriage ban and have now spread nationwide from California to Utah and tonight to the Big Apple. Take a look at that. That is a live picture of what is happening less than ten blocks from where I am sitting: protesters converging outside Manhattan`s Mormon temple, furious over the millions of dollars the Mormon Church spent to help ban gay marriage in California.

Joining me now, two men very invested in this proposition in very different ways. Mark Leno, one of the first openly gay men elected to the California assembly. And Matthew Staver from the Liberty Counsel who supports Prop 8.

Mark, these protests just keep on growing. What`s your reaction to this chain reaction of demonstrations that has really swept the country almost spontaneously, I would say?

MARK LENO, CALIFORNIA STATE ASSEMBLY: It has been very spontaneous. It`s probably not surprising, because what Californians have done is very radical and changes our constitution in a very significant way by subverting our equal protection clause, which says very clearly that no citizen or class of citizens should be granted any privileges or immmunities not granted to all citizens on the same terms. And so this changes our constitution in a very radical fashion.

We do think everyone should be respectful of opposing points of view, and there should be no violence in the street whatsoever. But it is a very fascinating debate as to whether a vote of the people...

VELEZ MITCHELL: Well, that is what (ph) we`re looking at right now.

LENO: Good. I`m glad to hear it.

VELEZ MITCHELL: I mean, we`re looking at live pictures and very peaceful people milling about. But there`s a lot of them and they have a lot of signs. And they are outside the Mormon temple in Manhattan.

Matthew Staver, founder and chairman of Liberty Counsel. You support Prop 8. The Mormon Church is now crying foul. They say they are appalled at these protests, and they feel they are being persecuted. I mean, do you buy it? If you can dish it out, don`t you have to be able to take it?

MATTHEW STAVER, FOUNDER/CHAIRMAN, LIBERTY COUNSEL: Certainly, we ought to be civil, and I agree with that. But what we`ve seen is not civil. What we`ve seen in California is a very intolerant, very hateful kind of reaction against those who support traditional...

VELEZ MITCHELL: What kind of things are we asking -- like what?

STAVER: Well, we`ve seen all kinds of e-mails. We`ve seen threats. We`ve seen these kind of radical protests. But in New York, fortunately, right now it`s peaceful, and I hope it continues to remain peaceful.

The Mormon Church is just like most Americans, and they support marriage as one man and one woman, because it`s best for our children. It`s best for our society.

We didn`t radically change the constitution. Four judges voted to radically institute same-sex marriage. The people put it back to where it has commonly been, where it`s always been, and that is, the union of one man and one woman.

VELEZ MITCHELL: Well, you could argue that it`s being put in the past and other states, like Connecticut and Massachusetts, are moving towards the future. We`re going to actually talk about that in just a second.

But I want to show you this. Prop 8 opponents are now being very creative in the ways they`re protesting the gay marriage ban. You`ve got to check this out.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As a society, we should put the best interests of children first, and those interests lie in traditional marriage.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Permitting divorce destroys marriage as we know it and causes a profound harm to society.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We should be restoring marriage, not undermining it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And for those of you who voted yes for Prop 8 but disagree with this petition, why?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything we just said we copied and pasted from literature from your Web site,


VELEZ MITCHELL: Well, Mark Leno, isn`t that the logical extreme of the ban-gay-marriage argument? If you`re trying to protect marriage, isn`t divorce a threat to marriage?

LENO: It`s really the only thing that is a threat to marriage. Certainly not the issuance of marriage licenses to couples who have been together 10, 20, 30, 40 years.

But it`s an interesting point to bring up divorce, in that we do have civil divorce in this country. We have a First Amendment freedom of religion for those churches which do not wish to recognize civil divorce, and that is their right not to do so.

VELEZ MITCHELL: All right. Let me ask Matthew. Let me ask...

LENO: All we`re talking about -- all we`re talking about here, though, is civil marriage. They don`t have to recognize it, but we allow all taxpaying, law-abiding citizens their right to a civil marriage.

VELEZ MITCHELL: Matthew, you say you want to protect marriage. Obviously, just from a definition standpoint divorce is a huge threat to marriage. So why not move ahead to the next way and the next move to protect marriage by banning divorce? Why not -- why not do an initiative on that?

STAVER: Well, certainly divorce is something that is devastating to marriage. And Louisiana, for example, has covenant marriage. You can choose between civil marriage, where it`s no fault, or covenant marriage, where you have certainly counseling requirements to enter into or to exit marriage you have certain waiting...

VELEZ MITCHELL: Are you saying you think divorce should be banned?

STAVER: No, I`m not saying that you ban divorce. I`m saying...

VELEZ MITCHELL: I`m saying it`s the same thing.

STAVER: Certainly, it is something that is destruction.

VELEZ MITCHELL: It`s a logical extension of the argument.

STAVER: I think marriage, though, is the best for children. Obviously, children do best when they`re in the environment of a mom and dad. And I think Californians didn`t want to see what happened in Massachusetts where same-sex...

VELEZ MITCHELL: So why not ban divorce? I`m just asking you. Why not ban divorce?

STAVER: Well, when same-sex marriage -- when same-sex marriage came to Massachusetts, because of that same-sex marriage, you institute this into the public school curriculum.

VELEZ MITCHELL: Matthew, I understand what you`re saying, but I want to ask you that question.

STAVER: I think you don`t ban marriage, obviously...

VELEZ MITCHELL: Not ban marriage, ban divorce.

STAVER: Well, you don`t ban divorce. Obviously, there are situations where there are times where there may be abuse in the marriage. There may be other kinds of things.

But one of the things we do need to do is have a culture that strengthens marriage, and same-sex marriage actually has a policy that destroys marriage.

VELEZ MITCHELL: So you`re saying that, basically, somebody who is not in an abusive relationship should not have the right to get divorced?

STAVER: I`m not saying that at all. You`re putting words in my mouth.

VELEZ MITCHELL: Well, you just said that. You said sometimes, well, hey, there`s abuse, so we should allow for that to be an exception.

STAVER: That`s just one example. It`s just one example. Obviously, it`s not asking for banning divorce.

VELEZ MITCHELL: What about two people who decide, hey, we just don`t want to be together anymore?

STAVER: We`re not asking to ban marriage. I think what we`re saying, though, is that marriage is the union of one man and one woman. That`s the best for society. Californians have chosen that. We need to live with that and move on. I think what we do is obviously strengthen marriage. Same-sex marriage deconstructs the marriage institution itself.

VELEZ MITCHELL: What do you say to it, Assemblyman Mark Leno, one of the first openly gay assemblymen in California?

LENO: I could buy into -- thank you. I could buy into all of Matthew`s arguments if what we were saying, in promoting marriage equality, was denying heterosexuals the right to have families, the right to have a marriage license.

We want to expand the franchise of marriage. We think it`s good for society. It brings stability to our communities and brings the equal protection of the law to all of our families. Not just some of them. It`s a very simple concept, and that`s what`s written into our constitution.

And you can`t have a simple majority vote to make such a radical change to our constitution, without following a requirement of a revision, which this is, to our constitution, with a two-thirds requirement...

VELEZ MITCHELL: Let me ask you this...

LENO: No, let me finish.


LENO: With a two-thirds vote of both houses of the legislature must occur in a revision situation before it goes to voters, the people.

VELEZ MITCHELL: Well, why didn`t they make that -- I want to put the...

LENO: And they didn`t do that. They didn`t do that.

VELEZ MITCHELL: I want to put the gay rights activist on the spot here. Why didn`t you fight that battle before they got all those signatures?

LENO: We did. We did. It`s a very -- it`s a very reasonable question. And we went to the court and made the same argument. The court said, "Come back to us if and when it passes. We`re not going to stop the voters from having an opportunity to discuss this. But come back to us afterwards," which is exactly what we`re doing now.


STAVER: Frankly, what the court did is actually reject that argument, and I suspect they`ll reject that argument again. This is a simple amendment, 14 words, one sentence. It puts the status quo back to where it was just a few months ago. This is not a radical change of the constitution.

You know, polygamists have the same argument. If we open it up for gay marriage, why don`t we open it up for polygamy?

VELEZ MITCHELL: Let me ask you this question, Matthew. Why didn`t the Mormon Church, which officially condemns polygamy, if they want to preserve marriage go after the polygamists when we have the whole scandal in Texas with the polygamy -- the fundamentalist polygamists?

STAVER: Well, clearly, the Mormon Church does not condone polygamy. And that`s part of...

VELEZ MITCHELL: Why didn`t they go after it like they went after the gays?

STAVER: Well, I don`t think they`ve gone after the gays. They`ve gone after preserving marriage. They haven`t gone after anybody. They`ve gone out for preserving the basic...

VELEZ MITCHELL: They just banned gay marriage in California.

STAVER: Well, they`ve gone after what we have the opportunity to do in our democratic process, is to express our views. And they did that, and that is to protect the institution of marriage itself as the union of one man and one woman. We ought to respect them for that, rather than demonizing them for doing so.

VELEZ MITCHELL: All right. Well, I thank you both, gentlemen, for engaging in this debate. And we`re going to have you back, because this debate isn`t going anywhere.

LENO; No, it`s not. You`re right about that.

VELEZ MITCHELL: You know, this may have been backfired in the sense that it has, to a certain degree, as you can see from the live pictures that we`re looking at, galvanized the gay rights community across the country. And we`re going to stay on top of that story.

Once again, those are live pictures of what`s going on ten blocks from where I`m sitting in Manhattan, thousands converging outside the Mormon Church.

Now, while California just banned gay marriage, another state has just cleared the way to allow it. Today a judge in Connecticut opened the door for same-sex marriages. Moments after that ruling, marriages licenses were issued and ceremonies quickly followed. This is a victory for gay couples after the huge disappointment of Prop 8 in California.

It kind of leaves me wondering, will we see a migration of Californians to the East Coast?

Joining me now, Beth Bye, a Connecticut state representative and recent newlywed.

Beth, you just got married today to another woman in Connecticut. Congrats.


VELEZ MITCHELL: How does it feel?

BYE: It feels great. It feels so right.

VELEZ MITCHELL: What was it like? Tell me. Tell me all about the ceremony.

BYE: All right. Well, we had a civil union three years ago in our church. So we had a big marriage ceremony, because we were allowed to, in our religious faith, be married.

But today we had our civil marriage, which is a legal right, and it was great. We had three of our kids. Our fourth child is in Chicago in college, so he couldn`t make it. But three of our children were with us. A sister and brother. And we -- the ceremony was performed by Jonathan Harris, who`s a state senator, and it was -- it was wonderful. We exchanged rings. We exchanged vows and...

VELEZ MITCHELL: Let me see your ring.

BYE: I have my ring.

VELEZ MITCHELL: There you go. OK, San Francisco`s Mayor Gavin Newsom reminds us that the gay marriage ban in California affects a lot more than gay people.

BYE: Sure.

VELEZ MITCHELL: It is a big economic loss to California. "Our human capital is what defines our greatest competitive asset. It`s harder now to recruit people in the gay and lesbian community. It`s harder to retain members of the community. It`s much easier for Massachusetts to do that." And now we add Connecticut.

Do you think Mayor Newsom is right that, for example, in high-tech jobs, somebody is going to decide, I`m going to go to Connecticut or Massachusetts, as opposed to Silicon Valley, California?

BYE: Well, I feel really good about Connecticut today. That`s for sure. And we`ve had a really civil debate over the course of ten years about gay rights in Connecticut. And it`s been progress. It`s been Republicans and Democrats working together. When we passed civil unions, it was members of both parties, people of different ages that passed that. And the legislature was really ready to pass marriage, I think...


VELEZ MITCHELL: I have to jump in. We have only ten seconds.


VELEZ MITCHELL: Why is it that Connecticut is not having an uproar? Why is it that it`s being more like Massachusetts than California?

BYE: Because we`ve had a long-term grassroots effort to grant gay people all the rights and privileges that they deserve to live in our great state.

VELEZ MITCHELL: All right. So it`s been a long-term kind of process. Not an event.

BYE: Positive discourse. Positive discourse.

VELEZ MITCHELL: Yes, that we have to learn from, I think. Thank you so much.

BYE: Thank you.

VELEZ MITCHELL: Please come back. We`re staying on top of this issue, as we mentioned.

Meantime, the U.S. car industry running out of gas. What happens if our tax dollars bail them out, or worse, what happens if we don`t bail them out?

And I will have more of the exclusive footage of Joran Van Der Sloot trying to hire Thai women, allegedly to work as prostitutes. Van Der Sloot, the prime suspect in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. I will talk to her father. What does he think about this shocking new development?


VELEZ MITCHELL: Police had (ph) Joran Van Der Sloot as the prime suspect in Natalee Holloway`s disappearance back in 2005. Now her father says exclusive new video of Van Der Sloot may be more proof of his guilt. I will talk to him in just a bit.

But, first, U.S. automakers are running out of gas. Their chances of survival are getting slimmer by the day. In an effort to tackle this crisis, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi yesterday called for an auto industry bailout.

Well, here`s my issue. Look, I don`t want the auto industry to die out, but we should not, and cannot, just hand over a huge wad of cash for the big three to continue manufacturing gas guzzlers. And I`m not sure they have what it takes at this point to catch up with Japanese and European automakers when it comes to low-emission vehicles like hybrids, like electric cars, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

So, how do the big three catch up after years of arrogantly and willfully ignoring the technologies of the future?

Joining me now, Joe Magyer, senior analyst at the Motley Fool, and Debra Borchardt, reporter at TV.

Debra, I want to debate the future of the industry, but first tell us where we stand tonight in terms of all these bailout proposals that are flying around.

DEBRA BORCHARDT, REPORTER, THESTREET.COM TV: Well, we`ve already given them $25 billion and that was supposed to help them with the green car, but they`ve already got a green car called the Volt, and it`s not going to come out until 2010. And they`ve already said they`re going to lose money on this vehicle. Now they want another $25 billion.

And really what this is all about, it`s not about the cars anymore. It`s about the UAW, the pensions, the health care benefits. They want more money because they owe the UAW a ton of money.

VELEZ MITCHELL: You know, Joe Magyer, you`re over at the Motley Fool, and I love that site.


VELEZ MITCHELL: I look at it often. Remember the Chrysler bailout? I think it was back in 1979 or something like that. And yes, it helped Chrysler, but it didn`t -- it didn`t help the auto industry, as a whole. A lot of people actually thought that actually started the whole arrogance where it`s like, "Oh, we`re going to get bailed out. We don`t really have to do anything smart in terms of planning for the future."

MAGYER: Yes, well, I think that`s certainly reasonable. I mean, here we are a couple decades later, and they`re in almost the exact same spot, if not a worse one. I don`t think there`s really anything that this cash infusion is going to do except keep these guys standing for a couple years longer.

VELEZ MITCHELL: Well, Obama makes a greener Detroit, of course, a big priority than, certainly more than his predecessor. Listen to this.


BARACK OBAMA (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT: I`ve made it a high priority for my transition team to work on additional policy options to help the auto industry adjust, weather the financial crisis, and proceed in developing fuel-efficient cars.


VELEZ MITCHELL: OK, that`s -- that`s nice to hear, but can Detroit ever catch up to the Japanese and the European hybrid and electric models?

I got to ask you that, Debra, because I`m on my second Prius. And I got to tell you, I love it. It`s a fantastic car. It`s a very complicated.


VELEZ MITCHELL: I was told when I bought it, it was $50,000 worth of technology in a $20,000 car. Now, there are American models of hybrids, but if you look at reviews and rankings or rankings and reviews, it says that it`s -- the only American car in the top five is a Saturn or a hybrid, and it`s the fit (ph).

So, the first one is the Toyota Camry hybrid, the second is the Honda Civic, the third one is the Toyota Prius. The fourth is the Nissan Altima hybrid. And the fifth is the Saturn Aura hybrid.

How is America ever going to catch up? Because this is complex technology. If you pour billions, you`ve still got to retool. I mean, shouldn`t they maybe do a deal with some of the Japanese auto makers?

BORCHARDT: Well, that`s exactly the problem, is you know, every company has some price where the other company will come and take them out at. You saw that with Bear Stearns. Albeit a very, very price, $2 to $10. But that`s the problem, is their labor costs are so enormous that these other companies don`t want to take it on. Daimler picked up Chrysler, and look what happened to them.

VELEZ MITCHELL: Yes, but listen, Joe, we also had that documentary, "Who Killed the Electric Car," you know, back in the `90s. And I was in California at the time. There were electric cars. And it was the oil and the auto industry took them back, and they actually crushed them. They crushed the electric car. They wanted to kill it! Shouldn`t they pay for that decision now?

BORCHARDT: You know what, I`m not so sure about that. I mean, even if they hadn`t crushed it, per se, if they did, you know, realistically the car may not have even been economically viable.

VELEZ MITCHELL: Of course it`s not economically viable. Because the Toyota Prius wasn`t either. They -- it was a loss leader, but they knew economies of scale would kick in eventually, and eventually they`d start making money, which they did.

Americans have to stop thinking past the next quarter and have to start thinking about long term and also being of service. We should have been thinking about the environment all that time. I thank you both. I want you back soon.

Could a KKK initiation ceremony have led to a violent shooting death? That`s next.


VELEZ MITCHELL: If I tell you there`s an epidemic and it`s killing our kids, there`s not a parent in America that won`t say let`s do something about it right away. But when that killer is obesity, too many of us fall silent and just keep passing the ice cream around.

Wake up, America. Our bad eating habits are killing our kids.

A stunning new study reveals many obese children have the arteries of 45-year-old adults, which leaves them in the high-risk category for future heart attacks and strokes.

Joining me is Dr. Dean Ornish, the president of the Preventive Medicine Research Institute. And he`s also the author of a fabulous new book called "The Spectrum: A Scientifically Proven Program to Live Longer and Lose Weight and Gain Health." I like all of those doctor orders. Obesity rates have tripled for American kids over the last three decades, and it`s making them literally sick.

What`s likely to happen, health-wise, for the child who has the arteries of a 45-year-old?

DR. DEAN ORNISH, PRESIDENT, PREVENTATIVE MEDICINE RESEARCH INSTITUTE: Well, you`re only as old as your arteries, and so if you`ve got the arteries of a 45-year-old, you`re probably likely to die a lot sooner than you should. And you know, this may be the first generation, Jane, in which our kids live a shorter lifespan than their parents. It doesn`t have to be that way.

And it doesn`t matter if you`re a red state or blue state, when parents hear that their kids are likely to die before they did, it really brings out a primal response in people.

And the good news is there`s something that can be done about it. It doesn`t have to be that way.

VELEZ MITCHELL: Well, this is learned behavior. What is wrong with the diet? And, of course, they`re getting it from their parents. I mean, more than 60 percent of Americans are overweight; 30 percent plus are obese.

ORNISH: Well, you know, we learn by our example. And if two-thirds of parents are obese or overweight, it`s not surprising that our kids are, as well. But it doesn`t have to be that way.

I have an 8-year-old. My son Lucas will be 8 in about a week. And with him we say, "Look, this is -- we eat this way because these foods make you feel good, and they make you look good." And we teach him how to read labels even though he`s only 8.

And so he understands that when he eats a lot of sugar and he gets a sugar rush and starts bouncing around and he feels tired afterwards, that there`s a connection between what he eats and how he feels. And I think parents need to both exhibit examples of that and show kids how they can do things better.

VELEZ MITCHELL: And what is going on in this country in terms of overeating? And it`s ironic and sad, because the other half of the world is in starvation mode.

ORNISH: Right.

VELEZ MITCHELL: And there are kids in Zimbabwe, you know, with distended stomachs, picking little pieces of grain off the side of the road to try to survive. And we`re gorging. Is this food addiction? And what are the addictive foods that we`re eating?

ORNISH: Well, the foods that tend to cause you to gain weight are foods that are high in fat and high in sugar or refined carbs, because fat is very dense in calories. There`s nine calories per gram versus only four for protein and carbs. And sugar makes you fat because you get all these calories that don`t fill you up, and they make your blood sugar zoom up, which in turn makes you convert the calories into fat.

VELEZ MITCHELL: So, eating fruits and vegetables, is that something that we should try to incorporate more into our diet, obviously?

ORNISH: Fruits and vegetables, whole grains, legumes, soy products, and fish. These foods not only -- they`re not only good because of what they don`t have but also what they do have.

What you include in your diet is as important as what you exclude. I`ve also been working with some of the big food companies like Pepsico and Mars, and they`re making healthier foods now. The salads you see in McDonald`s came from my work with them. So...


ORNISH: ... I`m trying to work on a number of different fronts to make it easier for kids to not get obese and not die early.

VELEZ MITCHELL: We have to leave it right there, but, Dr. Ornish, once again, I want to point out your book, "The Spectrum: A Scientifically- Proven Program to Feel Better, Live Longer, Lose Weight and Gain Health."

Thank you. We`re going to have you back to stay on top of the obesity crisis.

The fallout continues. The shocking video of Joran Van Der Sloot`s sex sting. What new information does this exclusive video give us about this crime?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Parents, beaten while picking up their kids from school. Should the attack be labeled a hate crime? I`ll ask the victim in just a minute.

But, first, we`re getting more information about Joran Van Der Sloot`s alleged involvement in bringing Thai women to Europe to work as prostitutes. Van Der Sloot as you probably know was the prime suspect in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway in 2005.

And he`s in trouble again, a hidden camera investigation by a Dutch TV crew caught Van Der Sloot on tape allegedly trying to sell women. That`s right, sell women from Thailand to Dutch prostitution rings.

And now we learn the documentary also claims that Joran`s dad, a powerful Dutch attorney, may have been more involved than initially thought in Natalee Holloway`s disappearance. Joining me by phone Natalee`s father, Dave Holloway, and criminal defense attorney Jeff Brown.

Dave, first of all thank you so much for joining us. I know this has to be difficult as always. This is astounding video that shows Joran trying to lure allegedly young women out of Bangkok to Holland to become prostitutes. What is your reaction to this sex sting?

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: Well, it`s really unbelievable, Jane, that it didn`t surprise me. A lot of the experts following our case had indicated this guy was going to strike again. And had indicated that he`ll be involved in some other criminal activity and I guess they were right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and by the way, we have an open invitation to Joran Van Der Sloot`s attorney, Joe Tacopina, he is welcome to join us here on this show to tell his side of the story anytime he wants. We`ve reached out and we haven`t gotten a comment at this point.

I want to ask you about the connection between this whole Bangkok incident and the Natalee Holloway case. Obviously, that`s your primary concern, Dave. You want to find out what happened to your daughter.

Now, in the documentary, they interviewed Celeste, who is supposedly an ex-girlfriend of Joran`s and she says something quite astounding, that she believes Joran`s dad was more involved than previously thought. Can you explain that? Because you`ve seen the documentary.

HOLLOWAY: Yes. She had indicated that Joran told her that Joran`s father knows more and coached him through this whole process of interrogation and so forth. He also told her that there was one other person who knows all about the case. And a lot of people believe that it was Bob Van Der Sloot himself.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, why do you say that? Because we`ve also heard of another person, Dowry (ph), that was referred to in a previous expose.

HOLLOWARY: In that previous expose, Patrick was the guy who spent about six to seven months with Joran, and, of course, he`s -- he was the one that believes that Dowry is actually his father.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok, so in other words, that`s a name that`s being used and you feel that that`s a cover-up for the father. This is such fascinating stuff.

Jeff Brown, criminal defense attorney. So many legal issues, first of all, speaking of Natalee, can any information gathered in this alleged scam in Bangkok to lure women into prostitution in Holland be used to help solve the Natalee Holloway case by going to the court and saying, look, he`s a bad guy, look what he`s doing now?

JEFF BROWN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I don`t see how you can do that. Most laws, especially United States laws, prevents you from saying somebody`s a bad person in one instance, therefore, they`re a bad person in the other instance.

Another reason why I don`t think that this evidence will ever get anywhere is I think you and I disagree as to what this tape completely says. I don`t hear prostitution. I hear him saying I want people to come be dancers. He shows them what he wants.

So, even this tape itself, I think, is open to interpretation. Do we take it literally in that he`s looking to bring back dancers, as he says, as they say, as he shows them what he`s looking for, is how to dance. Or are we saying that he`s speaking in code and he`s really looking for prostitution? I think that`s a perfect illustration of how this tape itself will be very --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But let me say this, obviously this is just a jumping-off point for an investigation. I understand that the authorities in Thailand are translating this entire documentary so they can understand what happened.

Dave, don`t they have to launch an investigation based on this, I mean, this is not an open-and-shut case. But they can now try to find out was Joran working as a middle man? Is there somebody in Holland that is paying him off? Is he part of a prostitution ring? Don`t they have to do some investigating?

HOLLOWAY: From what I understand, Jane, the videotape is not the only evidence they have. I think there`s some other email conversations between he and his accomplice.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, you`re saying that this is part of a much larger, sort of scope of investigation, and there`s evidence coming up in other arenas. I`ve heard that, yes, there are emails that have come up that also could implicate him.

You know what`s interesting Jeff Brown, is that one of the prosecutors in Thailand of reportedly kind of pooh-poohed the whole idea of prosecuting him. Saying, you can`t prosecute anybody on a TV show. Sure you can.

To catch a predator is a perfect example of prosecuting people based on undercover video that was obtained by a news crew.

BROWN: Yes, you can use a show like that to launch an investigation and keep in mind, in most countries, not all countries, but most countries, what a defendant or a suspect says can be repeated by anybody basically.

The problem that you may run into legally is trying to use other people`s statements that are on the show in a courtroom, in America, for instance, you wouldn`t be able to do that. You`d actually have to call that witness and have them testify and kind of in the present sense. So, you can run in to some of those logistic problems.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dave, we only have a couple of seconds. Do you think that Joran Van Der Sloot is ever going to be prosecuted either for your daughter`s disappearance or for this latest problem in Bangkok?

HOLLOWAY: Well, I don`t mean to be negative or anything. From what I`ve seen in the past and what I see in this tape and what evidence they have, you know, I`m not very confident that they will.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s got to be depressing for you.

HOLLOWAY: It is. It is. I wish they would have done more and developed a case a little bit more than what they did. But who knows? You know, that`s -- the Dutch and the Thai authorities to make that decision, not me.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I just want you to know that we will never forget Natalee. Dave and Jeff, thank you so much for joining us.

You know, I kind of believe all crimes are motivated by hate, in some form or another, which makes this next story all the more horrific.

Investigators searched the home of Raymond Chuck Foster today. He is charged with second-degree murder for allegedly shooting Cynthia Lynch of Tulsa, Oklahoma.

She get this -- have reportedly come to Louisiana to be initiated into the Ku Klux Klan, initiated. Seven other Klan members were arrested for trying to cover up this killing. The cops found KKK paraphernalia in the Klan leader`s home, but as for his victim, right now there are very few details.

What police are saying that the Klan recruited Lynch from the Internet and she was killed after trying to leave the initiation ceremony. Hate doesn`t get a whole lot more specific than that.

Matt Penix is a reporter from the St. Tammany news in the greater New Orleans area. Matt, what do you know about this woman, and why has she traveled all the way from Oklahoma to Louisiana to take part, allegedly, in this bizarre ritual to be initiated into the KKK?

MATTHEW PENIX, ST. TAMMANY NEWS: Not much is known right now. Investigators are still looking into her past. The coroner`s Office at St. Tammany parish has contacted the family, of course, but it`s kind of tight- lipped. Because the investigation is still going in to trying to pinpoint these involvement from these aides and how big this problem is, actually, in Louisiana. And so they`re trying to keep some of it tightlipped so, as to interview more of the -- the -- the gentlemen involved.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You talked about how much of a problem it is in Louisiana. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, there were seven -- count them seven -- Klan groups in Louisiana just last year. So, what`s going on in Louisiana? Is it like a hotbed of Klan activity?

PENIX: Well, yes. It`s got it`s got its moments. Fortunately, in St. Tammany parish and bordering Washington parish, where these eight gentlemen are from, there hasn`t been much incidences, at least in the past 30 years. I know Sheriff Jack Strain in St. Tammany parish has said he has not seen anything of this magnitude in all his career; 30 years in the law enforcement in St. Tammany parish.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me ask you this question. She apparently or allegedly drove -- and this woman is dead now, so we certainly can`t speak to her and get her side of the story, and she may have another side of the story.

But the reports we`re hearing is she wanted to join the Klan and she drove a long way, and then was in the process of, at some point, participating in the initiation ceremony, and decided, o want out of here. I want to go to the local town, she got into and an argument allegedly with the leader and that`s when he shot her and killed her allegedly.

PENIX: Absolutely, it`s a horrible story.

Let me make one point clear though, she did drive by bus here, she didn`t drive herself. And still unclear whether or not this quasi-group, who is apparently a fly-by-night group, actually paid for the ticket, bus ticket, or not.

They did receive an application from her and during the search of the -- Mr. Foster`s place, the accused killer, they did find other applications as well. So, they`re looking into those, but she didn`t drive --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, what`s fascinating about it is that also they got to her through the Internet, which I find fascinating. I never knew the Internet was a KKK recruitment tool.

But apparently there are people who have -- you could fill out an application on the Internet and join the KKK. How insane is that?

PENIX: Absolutely. It boggles my mind that in 2008 that this stuff can go -- still go on, even in somewhere like Louisiana.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And let me ask you about the alleged ceremony that they were participating in. I mean, this is in a campsite about 60 miles outside New Orleans, so it`s in the middle of nowhere. And is this, like, in the old historical footage with the flames and the white robes and all that?

PENIX: There were several robes there. Some white ones, black ones. The black one is typically indicative of the Grand Marshal, but some experts that I`ve talked to say, people can just buy these off the Internet, so it`s a quasi-organization and --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is sick, that they`re selling this stuff on the Internet, these robes.

You know, Matt, I want to thank you. I think this is a cautionary tale, if you get involved in a hate group, you could be on the receiving end of some leftover hate.

And speaking of hate, a lesbian couple, attacked and beaten while picking their child up from school; the alleged attacker has been arrested. The victims want him charged with a hate crime. The stunning details next.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: As I mentioned in our last segment, every crime is motivated by hate, in some form, but some hate is so specifically targeted, it`s really impossible to ignore. It`s hard for violent prejudice to survive in the spotlight, so I plan to shine a big spotlight on this next story.

A lesbian couple attacked outside their kid`s elementary school, just north of the border in Ontario, Canada. We`re going talk to that couple in just a second. But, first, an overview from our Toronto affiliate.


CHRISTINA STEVENS, GLOBAL NEWS: Anji Dimitriou and Jane Currie get dinner ready for their family, but it`s exactly this domestic bliss that seems to have enraged a fellow parent who they say approached them as they were picking up their children at school.

ANJI DIMITRIOU, VICTIM OF ASSAULT: I`m talking to you dike lesbians which one of you (bleep) talked to my kids.

STEVENS: Screaming and swearing on both sides ensued then the man spat in her face.

DIMITRIOU: When I went like this to wipe my face, and that`s when he clucked me.

STEVENS: When Currie came around to help, she was also punched in the head.

JANE CURRIE, VICTIM OF ASSAULT: Then, bang. Just bang, that was it.

STEVENS: There was blood everywhere, and both women were taken to the hospital, with several injuries, including concussions.

They say they`re thankful for the people that came and helped them, but the worst of it, they say, wasn`t their own injuries, it was the fact that their children and others had to watch it all happen.

CURRIE: I might be able to get past the punch in the face and that, but having to explain to my children why my face was bleeding.

BART SCOTT, CHARGED WITH ASSAULT: No, I didn`t hit them. They hit me.

STEVENS: Charged with assault and causing with bodily harm is 28- year-old Bart Scott who claims he was the victim.

SCOTT: There`s still a little small scar here. Ok, she punched me right in my face twice, ok? And this is how the assault took place, ok? Do you have your story right now?

STEVENS: Well, they seem to have gotten the brunt of it if you`ve seen their injuries.

SCOTT: Yes, well, and that`s fine.

STEVENS: The two women want the suspect charged with a hate crime, but police say that`s up to the crowd.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICEMAN: It`s part of the evidence, and it`s gathered and put together but it`s taken to the prosecutor.

STEVENS: Meanwhile this couple is telling their children not to hold it against their attacker`s kids.

DIMITRIOU: You stay friends; it has nothing to do with the children.

STEVENS: Christina Stevens, Global News.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow, joining me now the victims of this attack, Anji Dimitriou and Jane Currie. Thank you so much for joining us and I could see ladies that we can still see some of the marks on your face right now.

This alleged attacker has been charged with two counts of assault. You have called it a hate crime and I want to talk about that in a second.

But, first, Anji, give us a short play-by-play of the actual attack. How did it start? And what happened next?

DIMITRIOU: Our son came from the front doors. We were waiting in our truck. Jane was still inside the truck. She had her seat belt still on. And when we seen our son come out, I came out of the truck and said, oh, where`s the girls because we have three kids altogether.

And he goes, they`re just getting their bags. They`ll be out in a second. I said, ok, so give me your backpack and I`ll put it in the truck. As he`s going to take his backpack off, that`s when the man came -- stood in front of me. Now, I`m stand on the road --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What did he say? What happened?

DIMITRIOU: He came to me and said, which one of you F-men talked to my kid? And I said, nobody talked to your kid. We just got here. What are you talking about? And I said, who are you calling a man? And he said to me, you, you F-ing dike lesbians. Which one of you men talked to my kid?

And I said, nobody talked to your kid, your ignorant pig. And once I said that, he horked (ph) in my face and spit in my face and when I went down to wipe it, that`s when he clocked me right in the face. And I hit my truck and as I --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And, Jane, what happened with you? How did you jump in?

CURRIE: When I -- through the window I watched the situation escalate. And I came out, I opened the door, and I said to my friend, move, move, and by the time it took me to run around to the front of the truck, that`s when he had spit and punched her and I had yelled at him and I said, I`d said to him what are you doing? You just hit a woman.

Actually, I told him he ruined his life because he just battered a woman in broad daylight and then he turned around and he smashed me and I ended up with four stitches and a face covered in blood.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow, this is astonishing I had to read this, this is the statement of the man accused in this case, his lawyer says quote -- "As everyone knows there are two sides to every story and added his client will give his side when he has his day in court during the trial. Now, you want this to be a hate crime, apparently he used the "F" word and the "D" word and I don`t like to glorify by using it again and the "B" word.

Who heard those three words because legally it`s the words that create the motive for the hate crime? Who heard it?

DIMITRIOU: All the witnesses, the witnesses.


DIMITRIOU: We have four witnesses that wrote their statements with the police. But there was over 150 or 100 children and mothers there and a lot of parents heard it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, how did you explain this to your kids? The 6- year-old I understand was screaming and crying. What did you say to your kids?

CURRIE: When we came back from the hospital, I said to them that he was arrested. And he was taken to jail, and he will have to stand up in front of a judge and tell the judge what he has done.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But did you talk to them about why you were attacked, did you say, hey, some people have a problem?

CURRIE: They know that. They know that. They -- our three kids are the most open-minded, well-adjusted children ever. And they know that that`s out there. But they also know that it`s wrong for people to hit and he defied that, anyway.

And we told him that there`s conditions against him. He`s not allowed near us, the school and the like. And we also made it painfully clear for them not to be mad at his kids because they`re just kids as well. He did this, not them. And I`m not going to perpetuate hate with more hate. I`m not going to let the kids --


CURRIE: Keep going. It has to stop.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We have to practice peace, and the way we do it is, by doing exactly what you`re talking about.

Stay right there, because I want to talk about the rally you have planned. I have crucial questions for you.

We`re going to be back in just a moment.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s the guy who allegedly attacked a lesbian couple in what they are calling a hate crime against them.

Back now with that couple, Jane Currie and Anji Dimitriou. Jane, I want to ask you about the rally you have planned and how you worked on Facebook to get people together and the community reaction. Were the other parents supportive of you?

CURRIE: Absolutely. We have received more support than we ever thought possible. And it`s overwhelming, but it has to stop now. There has to be change. I`m -- I wasn`t afraid before, because I have no frame of reference for this, and I`m not going to be afraid now.

And my kids aren`t going to be afraid. Nobody`s children should have to be afraid. And anybody that has any beautiful diversity in their family with gays and lesbians and transsexuals or transgender -- any beautiful diversity -- shouldn`t have to be afraid for them because they have to live looking over their shoulder.

And that`s what this rally is about, it`s about anti-hate and anti- violence, because nobody needs to go through what we went through.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you think that Prop 8 and the whole controversy over gay marriage is contributing to an atmosphere of intolerance or not? Angie?

DIMITRIOU: I think so. I think that -- I don`t even -- I don`t even know what to say.

CURRIE: I`m sorry for all those people who have --


CURRIE: You know, at least all they could do is take away the piece of paper that says that they are married. But they can`t take away the love and the respect that they have for each other and everybody that`s in their families. And I think that that`s very sad what happened. And maybe on the eve of change in your country, something good can come again from that.

DIMITRIOU: Absolutely.

CURRIE: And from what we are trying to do.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How has it changed you, Jane, as a person, because I can tell you`re very emotional about this?

CURRIE: I`m angry. And I`m sad at the same time that all these children had to see that, including his own had to witness what he was capable of. I don`t want anybody anymore to get hurt anywhere. That`s all there is to it. Cut and dried. No more mean. It`s time for people just to be nice, just for a change. It`s time for a change.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow, that is profound, profound word. And, of course, change has been a part of what we have been discussing here in the United States with the election of Barack Obama. Unfortunately, there are some people who haven`t gotten the entire change message, but we`re going to keep plugging it here. I congratulate you ladies for your attitude.

CURRIE: Thank you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Stay in touch. We want to know how the rally went.

DIMITRIOU: Thank you very much for caring.

CURRIE: Thank you for caring. Absolutely.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We do care. Bye-bye.

You know, there are a lot of people talking on TV. Too few of them are saying anything that helps you make sense of the world. I`m trying to change that by keeping it real.

I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, and I`ll see you tomorrow at 7:00, with more real "ISSUES." Have a terrific night.