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Remains Found Near Missing Girl`s Home

Aired December 11, 2008 - 19:00:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Bombshells tonight with grisly breaking news out of Florida. The skeletal remains of a young child found in a plastic bag near the home of missing toddler Caylee Anthony. Could this stunning discovery finally break the case wide open? We`ll have the latest details.


SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENT-ELECT: I have never spoken to the governor on this subject. No representatives of mine would have any part of any deals related to this seat.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: As Obama blasts Blagojevich, the disgraced Illinois governor clings to his job with shameless determination. Wait until you hear about the extraordinary measures being taken to force him from office and who else might fall with him.

What do you think about this corruption scandal? We`ll have the latest details, and we`ll take your calls on the shocking case.

These issues, and more, tonight.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Breaking news tonight. We bring you in-depth analysis of the bombshell developments in the Caylee Anthony case. The little Florida girl vanished last summer, leaving an entire nation to wonder, where is she?

This morning, a gruesome discovery: the remains of a small child were found in a wooded area less than half a mile from the home of Caylee`s grandparents.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We recovered this human skull. It appears to be that of a small child, and now we have to -- the investigation continues. We`ve got a lot of lab work to do, a lot of DNA work to do, a lot of crime scene work to do. We may be here all night.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Cops say an Orlando, Florida, utility worker combing the ground as part of his job found that skull. Police say it is a young child`s skull. Cops add there are no other missing children in the area. They are working, as you just heard, around the clock to determine if this is, in fact, Caylee.

We need you to call right now. Let me know your thoughts or questions on this grisly discovery and how it could impact the upcoming murder trial of mom, Casey Anthony. Call 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297, with your comments and questions.

Here with the very latest from Orlando, Florida, Zack Stein, a reporter with WDBO radio in Orlando who is live at the Anthony home. Also joining me, my fabulous panel of experts, Ashleigh Banfield, anchor with "In Session," and Jayne Weintraub, criminal defense attorney. Plus Pat Brown, criminal profiler, and Dr. Harold Adelman, a pathology consultant and former deputy chief medical examiner, Suffolk County, New York.

Zack, you are on the scene at the Anthony home. It has been a very, very dramatic day with the arrival of Cindy and George Anthony from California back to Florida. What is the very latest?

ZACK STEIN, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, the latest is this home is now a crime scene. The Anthonys are not allowed inside. They are looking for evidence that might -- they might find it here, they could tie to what they found out in the field early this morning. They might be looking for other things. We don`t know. Right now they`re being very tightlipped.

But the Anthonys are not allowed to go back home. So they fly all the way back from Los Angeles. They are whisked away on the tarmac in a white van. And we just don`t know where they are right now.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is really shocking. I mean, we have been covering this case since last summer, Zack, and never at any time did it appear that they could -- couldn`t go home at all.

Now, we have a Google map of exactly where you are in Florida. There it is. And it also shows where the remains are found. I`ve heard everybody give us different estimates of how far this distance is, anything from a couple of blocks to half a mile to a mile. Spell it out for us. How far are you from where the remains were found?

STEIN: Well, it`s about five minutes to my right. You go down to the end of the street here, you take a right. It`s a dead end. There`s an elementary school on the other side of the wooded area, and they`re -- it`s about .4 of a mile, they say.

And it`s a place where kids have been known to hang out. Casey Anthony and her friends hung out there when they were in high school. It`s just a wooded area, just in this suburban development. And it turns out to be the place of -- possibly the place of Caylee Anthony`s remains.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ashleigh Banfield, anchor of "In Session," the race on to determine now, is this actually Caylee Anthony`s skull? We have so many ways to try to do that. We`re going to get to the DNA in a second. But it was found in a bag. Tell us how they use that bag to make the determination.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, ANCHOR, "IN SESSION": (AUDIO GAP) Garbage bags come out of production line. They come out with certain striations that can actually be tracked in sequence. So it means if the garbage bag that these bones were found in, if they`re Caylee`s, if those garbage bags are found under the sink in the Anthony home, it is not good for this case for them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, it certainly isn`t.

Jayne Weintraub, as an attorney, what do you make of the fact that the Anthonys, the grandparents of the missing child, have not been allowed back in their own home? Because we did hear -- one of the investigators say -- one of the authorities say today we may need to get more search warrants, meaning apparently, they may need to go back in to try to match up something in the home with something they found at the new crime scene where these remains, which have not been identified yet as being Caylee`s - - they`re still working to determine that -- have been found?

JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This is one more search in a manner of several searches in a rush to judgment. Everybody in the court of public opinion has already decided that this is Caylee, that Casey did it, and that the grandparents somewhere or somehow were complicit.

But the truth of the matter is, Jane, that with the body being found comes a bunch of new questions being found that might be very helpful to the defense.

For example, now we`re going to have a determination of the cause of death and the manner of death, which is different. The cause of death being was she strangled? Was she strangled because of the duct tape, which by the way, could have adhesive and could have fingerprints on it?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second. You`re -- you`re -- with all due respect, what duct tape? Nobody said anything about duct tape. We`re talking about a garbage bag and a skull.

Phone lines are lighting up. But first, let me go to Dr. Howard Adelman. You are a former deputy chief medical examiner. You know how they go into this: DNA. Apparently, the skull has been taken to the medical examiner`s office. From there, it`s going to go to the FBI to be analyzed.

How quickly could they determine -- I mean, they`ve got dental records they could look at. They`ve got just the physical appearance of this skull. What do they do now?

DR. HOWARD ADELMAN, PATHOLOGY CONSULTANT: I think this is in the hands of the forensic anthropologists, the forensic odontologists.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, big titles aside, what do they do, sir? I mean, do they look at the skull and say, "Wait, it looks like it belongs to a girl. It looks like it`s a 2-year-old child"? I mean, can they make those determinations by looking at the skull?

ADELMAN: Yes. They can make the determination as to the race, the approximate age. Also, a skull is only a part of the body, and we need the rest of the body. And that`s why the search will be continuing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. So we can determine the sex, the age, and the race just by looking at the skull, Pat Brown, and the body apparently was underwater. In other words, they searched this area after she went missing this past summer, but the area was flooded. Now the waters have receded, and this is what they came upon.

What does that tell you about the challenges of identifying this body, Pat?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, being under water is always one of the worst things possible. That`s, of course, what somebody hopes when they dump a body, that the elements are going to cover everything up and allow the body to decay a lot more than if it were in a dry climate.

But I`ll tell you, it`s very interesting. The location she was found, most perpetrators, when they`re dumping a body, will pick a place they`re very comfortable. Some place they know and are familiar with, so they`re not going to be surprised by people they don`t expect to be there, or have some -- a police car show up and scare them. So they`re going to pick a place that they know well about. So the fact that Casey spent some time at this location shows to me she picked a convenient location where she felt comfortable and had the time to dispose of a body.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That spot, it wasn`t just a comfortable location. Her school -- her old school is right near there, indeed, right?

BROWN: Right. Right. And it`s where the teenager hung out.

STEIN: I`m not sure if she -- I`m not sure that she went to that school, but that is an elementary school.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s what I heard, that she went to that school.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And her brother did, too.

STEIN: The other thing is, and to bring it up, they have mentioned duct tape was found bound -- there were reports that duct tape was found bound around the head and that`s back and forth. And that has sort of died away during the day. But duct tape has been a part of this, and there is speculation maybe they`re looking for garbage bags and duct tape that they could find inside the home that could match what they found at the scene.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, that`s good information coming in.

And Jayne Weintraub, you were right on the money with that duct tape. So I stand corrected.

Bob in Missouri, what are your thoughts or questions on this, sir?

CALLER: Well, I had two questions. One was, has Casey Anthony ever taken a polygraph? And can they ever figure out how long the body has been there?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Ashleigh Banfield? I`ll -- I know you have been covering this, as well. Tell us about the polygraph, first of all.

BANFIELD: I wouldn`t be surprised if she`s taken a polygraph. I`m also not surprised if that`s not public information. And by the way, that`s not the kind of thing that makes it into court anyway. It`s just something that helps investigators as they move along.

As far as how long the body has been there for, that can be tricky. We know she disappeared six months ago. So perhaps six months. If -- again, I`ve got to back this up. If it`s her. This is all on speculation that a toddler`s bones have been found in an area where not many 3-year-old toddlers are missing. So that`s something that they can look at. It`s not always easy to determine

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ashleigh, it would probably be a shocker if it wasn`t her.

BANFIELD: Jane, let me tell you something.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Near the grandparents` house. It`s a small child. It`s the skull of a young girl. There`s no other missing children in the area.

BANFIELD: It would be odd if it were anybody else but this -- but this child. But we have to remain, you know, open-minded about this.


BANFIELD: I just want to add to that duct tape thing, because duct tape is a really, really good piece of evidence. As Jayne mentioned, you might have fingerprints on it. But guess what else gets stuck to duct tape? Everything.


BANFIELD: Hair, fibers, shreds from your own clothing that you`re wearing. That kind of stuff is just golden for an investigation. So immediately what you want to do is go and see if you can find anything that matches what you find on the duct tape in the different areas of interest in this investigation.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Are you absolutely right, and that is probably what they are trying to do right now, which is probably why Cindy and George can`t go back into their own home.

Panel, stay right with me. Joining with me in just a bit, Nancy Grace herself, the woman who has been on this case since day one. You do not want to miss Nancy`s insights into this tragic story. That`s coming up in just a few minutes.

And I want to hear your thoughts and questions. Call 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297. Let me know what you think of this tragic case of little Caylee Anthony.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know how long the DNA test will take so that you can actually confirm -- whether you can confirm whether it`s Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The forensic units for the FBI lab to continue to do their follow-up work.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The remains of a child discovered just a half a mile from the home of Caylee Anthony`s grandparents. Police gathering forensics and waiting for DNA results. It`s a top priority. They`re going to try to get them in as soon as possible. The big question, is it Caylee Anthony?

I want your thoughts. Call 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297 with your comments and questions.

My panel returns. Ashley Banfield, anchor with "In Session"; Jayne Weintraub, criminal defense attorney; Pat Brown, criminal profiler; and Dr. Howard Adelman, a pathology consultant and former deputy chief medical examiner of Suffolk County.

This child`s skull found in a wooded area. It`s damp. Reports suggest it was partially buried, and everybody in the world wondering what can this skull tell us? And we`re going to find out pretty soon.

Lorraine in Kansas, what is your question or thought, ma`am?

CALLER: Yes, ma`am, I thought -- I can recall that Leonard Padilla had made a comment about bits of what Casey said were always weaved in with bits of truth. In a jailhouse visit to her mother, her mother asked her, "Where do you think Caylee is?"

And she said, "Mom, I believe she`s close -- she`s close to home."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, you are so right.

CALLER: She knew she was.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You are so right. Pat Brown, criminal profiler, you just heard the lady say it absolutely on the money. She always said, "My gut feeling is that she`s close to home."

And let me add another thing. Psychiatrists have been sent to her jail cell, and her attorney has been sent to her jail cell. Some published reports say she is distraught. What does all this tell you?

BROWN: I think she`s distraught because she knows everything`s closing in on her.

And what`s very interesting about people who exhibit psychopathology and are pathological liars, is they will tell the one story and then, when things get a little closer to the truth, they have to adjust their story to align with it a little better. So I`m sure the next story coming out is going to be how the babysitter was the one who dumped Caylee there. And then, when that doesn`t work, then she`ll go for the "it was an accident" ploy.

So everything is going to move in that direction. And the trick about questioning somebody like her is to make her believe you know more so she`ll give up more.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I tried to make a list of all of her lies. And I`ve got to tell you...

BROWN: It would be too long.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... it`s really -- it`s took long. Take a look at this. These are all of her lies, and I had to stop, because I ran out of time. It`s unbelievable the stories that she has told in this case. And we`re going to get to a time line in just a second.

But first, M.J. in Ohio, your thought or question?

CALLER: Well, it was stated on another news report that there was either an entire skeleton that was found or was it just the head, No. 1? No. 2, if there is a skeleton that was found, would there not be some flesh, it only being a few months?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Dr. Howard Adelman, take that one away. With the body being under water, presumably for months, would there be any tissue left, or would it simply be skeletal?

ADELMAN: There would certainly be tissue left, and that`s why I say it`s important to get the entire body. And one wonders why the head would be separated from the rest of the body, if there`s a decapitation involved.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, yes, I think Jayne Weintraub, a very interesting aspect of this is that they`re talking about a skull. And yet, you know, there has been speculation perhaps this was an accidental death. In an accidental death, the skull generally is not separated from the rest of the body.

WEINTRAUB: But in decomposition it is. And if it had been floating in the water a long time, that could happen. We don`t know what the separation is. We don`t know the manner of death. And also, she could have been dead before she was placed in the bag.

You know, that duct tape just might have fingerprints of somebody other than Casey Anthony, No. 1. No. 2, what are you all going to say then? And No. 2 is...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re crazy about that duct tape. You won on the duct tape. I`ll give it to you.

WEINTRAUB: But maybe she was distraught because her baby was found dead and maybe, just maybe, she was out partying because she didn`t want this kid to begin with, and maybe she gave the child away to whomever, and she didn`t think the child was dead. Did anybody ever occur -- did any...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. You know what? Ashleigh Banfield, you`re going to have to help me out here.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Because I have a very good defense attorney on my hands. Maybe you should take over the case, honey.



ADELMAN: Just want to make one -- one thought.

BANFIELD: As much as I love Jayne, I`ve got to say, Jayne, I would agree with so much of what you have to say if Casey weren`t a pathological liar in prison. You don`t do this if you`re desperately trying to find your child. You don`t mislead authorities. You don`t tell them stories that aren`t true. Her behavior has led to the speculation that so many have about her, whether it`s right on wrong.

And we all have to remember, so far, we don`t know that these are the bones of Caylee. That -- that is to be determined. So we can`t make speculations as to whether there will be DNA or fingerprints on the duct tape.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I just have one thing to say. She waited more than a month before finally admitting to her mother that the child was missing. During that time, and I believe we have photos -- she is a partier. She parties quite a bit. During that time, there were photographs of her taken. During the time she says she was secretly hunting for her child, of her out partying.

So if you`re out partying and you haven`t told anybody that your child is missing, I think that is extraordinarily incriminating evidence, and I don`t think we can just say, oh, you know, we can`t consider all of that. And the timeline is absolutely astounding. We`re going to get to the timeline in just a bit.

Marisha in Florida, your question or comment?

CALLER: Hi, good evening.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening.

CALLER: One of the things that I`ve noticed in listening, one thing, the father, he`s a retired police officer. The mother, being a nurse. If, indeed, quite frankly, if they thought they had anything to do with the disappearance or the removing of the body or hiding the body, I don`t think they would have had it so close to their neighborhood.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree. I think the one thing that we can`t all agree on, and I definitely disagree with you, Jayne, on this issue, is that everybody assumes the grandparents are involved.

I have tremendous sympathy and compassion for the grandparents. They have been through hell. And if they`re in denial, I don`t think that`s a crime. They went to California because they thought there was a sighting of their granddaughter. And you know what? We`ve got to give these guys a break. Their -- their lives have been shattered or destroyed.

Hang tight. A reminder: Nancy Grace is up immediately following this program at 8 p.m. with the latest, and she`s also going to join us in just a moment to give us the latest insight. Hang in there. We`ve got more calls for you.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 911, what`s your emergency?

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: I called a little bit ago, the deputy sheriff. I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing. Get someone here now!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your daughter admitted that the baby is where?

ANTHONY: The babysitter took her a month ago, that my daughter`s been looking for her. There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car!


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That was the infamous 911 call in which Cindy Anthony calls cops and says, "Hey," you just heard it, "it smells like there was a body in the -- dead body in the damn car." That was on July 15. The child had been missing for a month. Casey Anthony just admitted that to her on that day, sparking the call.

It`s -- it`s a shocker that any mother would wait for a month before notifying even her own family that her daughter was missing.

Phone lines totally chock full.

Erica in Georgia, your comment or question, ma`am?

CALLER: Hi. Yes, this is a horrible tragedy, first of all. Everybody has been devastated by it. But I would like to know how long will it take before we know if this is Caylee Anthony or not?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Howard Adelman, just give us the nutshell here on the DNA. Is it going to be days? Is it going to be weeks?

ADELMAN: Well, first, I want to make the comment, in decomposed bodies, the head usually does not separate spontaneously.


ADELMAN: It stays there. And to a great extent, if the body were placed in a plastic bag, it would be protected from the outside elements, so the decomposition would be a little bit different, especially if it was cold.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. How long for the DNA, sir?

ADELMAN: The DNA could take a matter of weeks.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But there -- Ashleigh Banfield, we know -- and I`m sorry to interrupt you, sir. We know that they can put a rush on this. Obviously, the entire world is wondering is this Caylee? Aren`t they going to just put a rush, put this at the top of the list and get this done in a couple of days?

ADELMAN: They can put a big rush on this. But you have to remember that, because the body has been submerged in water...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, all right.

ADELMAN: ... a lot of the DNA is degraded.


BANFIELD: There`s also dental records, though, Jane. There are a number of different kinds of ways that they can identify this body. And they`re working with the FBI with some of the most sophisticated facilities available in this country and, to my knowledge, they`re sending some of these remains to Quantico in a very timely manner. I don`t know how long it`s going to take, but my thought is that it would take a shorter amount of time than the average case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Susan in New Hampshire. Hey, Susan. All right.

CALLER: ... on that baby`s -- the little skull that was found today?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Say that again, ma`am.

CALLER: Wouldn`t there be some hair left on that little skull?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. That`s excellent. Pat Brown, we`ve only got 10 seconds. Your thoughts on that?

BROWN: Again, we`re talking about -- we`re talking about decomposition and what`s happened in the water. Animals being around there. Which is one reason you can have a separation from a skull from the rest of the body. Animals gnaw through the bag. And it`s been a long time. And gnawed around, and that could have caused a separation, as well. We often find bodies in lots of pieces in wooded areas.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Stay right there. We`re going to have more details on what could be the discovery of Caylee Anthony`s remains after the break. We`re also going to be joined by the one and only Nancy Grace. Nancy will be here in just a bit to offer her insight into this truly tragic story.

Plus, more on the scandal surrounding Illinois Governor Blagojevich. How do we know who to trust in the world of politics after that?

Call 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297, to sound off on either of these stories.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, top of the block, shocking new developments in the Caylee Anthony case this morning. The remains of a small child found in a wooded area less than half a mile from the home of young Caylee`s grandparents.

A utility worker combing the ground while on the job found the skull. Police say it is a young child`s skull. Authorities working frantically to determine if it is, indeed, little Caylee.

Joining us by phone Nancy Grace who has been following this case since day one. Nancy, thank you so much for coming on.

NANCY GRACE, HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR, "NANCY GRACE": Jane, thank you for having me.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nancy, this feels like it is really the crucial turning point we`ve all been waiting for, for months now. What are your sources telling you?

GRACE: They are telling me that the FBI, a source within the FBI says this is definitely little Caylee. Now, our research shows there are four other missing children in the Orlando area so they can`t be ruled out.

But, Jane, just looking at it, common sense wise, this body is found about -- as the crow flies -- one block from the Anthony home and I believe it to be a garbage bag, an opaque garbage bag.

The area has been searched on several occasions, but the area was searched when there was very heavy flooding after hurricane Faye. Now that those waters have receded, the bag is more plainly visible.

It was about -- it was originally set 40 to 65 feet away from the street. Now, it`s about 25 feet away from the street and it`s between the Anthony home and the elementary school, Hidden Oaks Elementary School, where not only tot mom Casey Anthony went, but so did her brother. It was just basically around the block; about 15 homes away from the Anthony home.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now presumably Nancy, they have all along had the dental records of this child in the event that something like this would happen. How quickly could they make a match in that regard?

GRACE: Immediately. You can look at the clothes the child was wearing. If you will remember the Daniel van Dam case, the remains which were completely decomposed where immediately identified by a Mickey Mouse earring the little girl was wearing.

In this case, there was a slip, and it`s already been stated the child was not wearing clothes or there were not any clothes inside that bag. And I want to remind you, Jane Velez, that way back when on our show, it came out that tot mom Casey Anthony had stated upon her initial release from jail, police haven`t even found the clothes she was wearing that night, indicating the child and the clothes were separated. And now we find a bag with skeletal remains with no clothes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nancy, I know you`re getting ready for you`re show. I have one more quick question, and I can`t help to ask you this. They are not letting apparently --

GRACE: I`m not in a rush, Jane. Go ahead.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok, they can`t -- they will not let the Anthony`s, Cindy and George, back into their own home according to the reporter who was on the scene. What do you make of that?

GRACE: Well, Jane, they are getting another search warrant. It`s very plain that this skeleton, this skull found in the road, in a very heavily wooded area has produced additional fodder for a search.

There is something in that home they want to go look for. Something in this bag, something about these remains are making them look for additional evidence. I don`t know what it is yet.

Also, they don`t want any outbursts at the home tonight. They just got back from California; they`re following up on a tip. And the public has been very angry about this case, so I`m sure they also want to protect the Anthony family.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nancy, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to join us. And appreciate it very much. Make sure -

GRACE: You know what, Jane? All I can say, is God bless little Caylee.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Absolutely, absolutely you are so right. Let`s keep our focus on what really matters and that is this beautiful little child. Thank you.

GRACE: Thank you, friend.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thanks, Nancy.

And make sure to check out Nancy immediately following this program at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. She will have the very latest on the stunning developments.

I want to bring back my panel now. Ashleigh Banfield, anchor with "In Session" and Jayne Weintraub, a criminal defense attorney and Pat Brown, criminal profiler.

Listening to what Nancy said, I think we have to also review the other evidence Ashleigh Banfield against Casey in the sense that she borrowed a shovel from a neighbor; there were checks on her Internet. On her computer, she did Internet searches for chloroform and for missing children`s websites and there`s also all the forensic evidence, the cadaver dogs, hinting on the scent of death in her car, air samples from the trunk consistent with human decomposition.

Chloroform found in the trunk which matches the search for the chloroform that somebody made from her computer and a hair strand found in the trunk that showed signs of human decomposition and is likely Caylee Anthony`s or at least the very least Ann Anthony, a member of the Anthony family.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, "IN SESSION" ANCHOR: Yes, and you know what, that coupled with now what we may have a body in this case, becomes extraordinarily powerful.

But if the body yields any chloroform, sadly you have to rule that out. Because a decomposing body actually produces chloroform. So that wouldn`t be something that you could rest your laurels on.

The other thing is it would be very important to find out what condition this body is in because if there are tool marks from the skull or the neck is broken, these are the kinds of things that they can match to evidence. Tool marks found in the home, and perhaps a screwdriver or a hammer that would match that depression --


BANFIELD: And there was a search made for how to break a neck in that home as well. And you know what else Jane, I don`t know that a lot of people are talking about this right now, but it wasn`t just a few days ago, that it was announced that they weren`t going to seek the death penalty against Casey Anthony.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, I want to talk to you about --

BANFIELD: Finding the body could change that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I want to get into the entire trial, which has been postponed now. But it is coming up.

Susan in Florida, your comments or questions?



SUSAN: Why does Casey need a nanny when she doesn`t have a job?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, now you`re getting to the entire fantasy world that Casey Anthony was living in.

Jayne Weintraub, this is a young woman who told her parents she was going off to work and later told police that she worked at Universal Studios, actually gave them a tour of Universal Studios. And it was determined she did not work there; she did not have a job there.

This is a young woman who talked about having a nanny name Zanny. And nobody ever actually met Zanny and the police believe nanny is a figment -- nanny Zanny is a figment of her imagination.

JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And doesn`t that tell you what her state of mind is? And that maybe we should be looking culturally at kids -- having kids that don`t want to have kids. That don`t even know what they are saying or doing.

I mean, maybe she was really off her rocker. We really don`t know. We just don`t know enough of the facts. And I agree completely with Ashleigh. They will re-evaluate whether or not to seek the death penalty. And based on Florida law, they`ll have to look at the aggravating circumstances versus the mitigating circumstances. They will look into forensics --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Why did they every say they didn`t want to seek the death penalty?

BANFIELD: Oh, that`s an easy one. There weren`t enough aggravating factor and she is a woman and she`s pretty woman, it is hard, hard to get a jury to agree to that, but you know something if they discovered that this child was abused --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That makes me so angry because somebody is pretty you don`t seek the death penalty. That`s really sick.

BANFIELD: You got to convince a jury though, Jane, and it is hard. But now if they have aggravating factors and they have a child that who was abused or whose skull was crushed, in an aggravating and heinous kind of murder, they can actually go back to a judge -- even though they are outside the 45 window after the indictment -- they can go back to a judge and reinstate the death penalty and say, we have plenty of aggravating factors now.

WEINTRAUB: But they really don`t Ashleigh, if you go down the list, they really don`t. And it`s not a numbers game.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes, they do.

WEINTRAUB: Remember in Florida, it`s whether or not the totality -- or they can give as much weight as they want to one aggravating factor versus three mitigating factors and the aggravating can win.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wouldn`t aggravating factor be, not reporting your own child missing for over a month.

WEINTRAUB: No absolutely not.

BANFIELD: No but having a child who was beaten to death and taped and possibly somehow tortured or suffering pain before her death, is a very aggravating factor.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m getting very aggravated, I can tell you that right now.

BANFIELD: But there are few mitigating factors in her case?

WEINTRAUB: What if there is no skull fracture, what if there is no poisoning, and what if -- what if there is hair fibers or some sort of evidence from somebody else? From a neighbor, from the natural father, from a date, from somebody? Then what is everybody going to be saying? There is a presumption of innocence, let`s not rush.

BANFIELD: No, but they had the opportunity to say if these are her bones and her bones are badly beaten and broken, we may revisit the idea of the penalty in this case.


BANFIELD: And I wouldn`t be surprised if they do, if they find the body.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to bring Pat Brown in. I think Jayne made an absolutely incredible, important point when she said let`s look at the big picture here. This is a girl who had this child as a teenager. She didn`t want the child, Pat, and she tried to give the child away to a friend who couldn`t have children. And the mother, according to the court documents, reportedly this friend said that Casey`s mom, Cindy said no, you can`t give the child away. You have to have the child. This is a cautionary tale.

PAT BROWN: Well, we`re talking about a sick family dynamic going on here that Cindy Anthony, I personally think, wanted a lot of power and she enjoyed having that grandchild in her home and having the power over that grandchild.

It`s interesting when she got really upset when she thought her grandchild was dead, she was angry at Casey and she was fighting against Casey. And as soon as time went by, suddenly she`s on Casey`s side.

I think that`s when she knew that child was dead and that`s when the obstruction of justice, I believe, started to occur. So I do believe Cindy Anthony knew what was going on at a certain point.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I have to say, Jayne, Ashleigh, Pat, you are a fabulous panel. Thank you so much for discussing this. I`m sure you will be back as developments warrant.

Fall out continues from the Blagojevich scandal. Call 1-877-JVM-SAYS; 1-877-586-7297 and tell me if you think we can trust any politicians. Shocking new developments, again, today. Next.



GOV. ROD BLAGOJEVICH, (D) ILLINOIS: Illinois is a land of opportunity. Family, community, patriotism are the values that make us strong. But over the last several years, our state has been adrift. Corruption has replaced leadership. I am running for governor, because I believe Illinois can do better.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That was Illinois governor Rod Blagojevich in a 2002 campaign commercial. What a sad joke that turned out to be. I`m going to go out on a limb here. I don`t sense he was sincere about those campaign promises.

Today, despite overwhelming calls for him to resign, from the president-elect of the United States on down, the disgraced governor showed up at work again today, acting like nothing is wrong. Illinois lawmakers outraged over the governor`s arrogant attitude, working quickly to hatch a plan to oust him. Meanwhile President-elect Obama finally opening up about this controversy at a news conference earlier today.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Let me be absolutely clear. I do not think that the governor at this point can effectively serve the people of Illinois. I -- the legislature is going down to Springfield to make a determination as to how to resolve this issue. I think they are going to come to the same conclusion. I hope that the governor himself comes to the conclusion that he can no longer effectively serve and that he does resign.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So will the governor get it and resign? Or will he continue to ignore the will of everybody around him? We want to hear what you think. Give us a call 1-877-JVM-SAYS; that`s 1-877-586-7297 to get your opinion heard.

Now let`s turn to our panel. Stanley Brand, former general council to the House of Representatives and criminal defense attorney, and Don Clark, former special FBI agent in charge and J. Von Ornsteiner, a.k.a. Dr. Buzz, psychologist.

How are you doing?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Buzz, what kind of mentality does it take for a man accused of massive corruption to show up at work while everyone around him including the next president is demanding he resign? I kind of think he needs to go to a Workaholics Anonymous meeting, because this guy has got a twisted work ethic.

VON ORNSTEINER: His work ethics is to exploit. His work ethics is to ahead, to gain power and control over all people, over the taxpayers and look how successful he`s been. He actually has been governor at this point and he refuses to leave.

These are the type of people who gain these kind of positions in life because they thrive on power. They thrive on exploiting people. He also has a wife who probably has similar interests and background and she is supporting him in this area. She comes from a political family. It`s probably ingrained in her too. It`s probably a situation of temperament and that temperament then becomes their personality and they seek to control everyone.

He`s not going to go anywhere; he`s going to try to stay there like a pit bull. I trust you. He`s going to stay there until someone actually has to take him off his throne.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Don Clark, former special agent in charge of the Houston FBI, I want to know all about how they wire tapped this guy. They apparently, according to what we`ve heard from federal investigators, they tapped his home phone, his personal office, the conference room in the Friends of Blagojevich campaign headquarters. How do they do all that surreptitiously?

DON CLARK, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Jane, as you well know, wiretap`s very difficult technique to be able to put into place. It takes a lot of probable cause. And in a case like this, with a politician of this magnitude, it`s probably almost to a proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

My senses are, Jane, there was an inside source somewhere at the beginning of that. But trust me, that inside source in and of itself didn`t lead itself to a wire tap because it takes too much probable cause for that. Bear in mind that this process has to go from the FBI and to the highest level in the FBI. With this particular person I can assure you of that, to the department of justice, a United States attorney`s office is involved in that, and a federal judge has to approve it. They had a lot of information.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask you this question, Stanley Brandt. The Huffington Post is reporting that some local reports are suggesting -- so this is six degrees of separation in terms of who actually suggested this but let`s just raise the issue. They`re claiming somebody out there, that Obama`s chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, may have tipped the feds off to the corrupt dealing. That there was a tip that came together very quickly because this governor may have reached out to Emanuel in an attempt to leverage the seat and Rahm said I`m going to call and knock this guy down.

STANLEY BRAND, FORMER GENERAL COUNCEL TO HOUSE OF REP.: Well, we already know from the affidavit that was filed, that one lobbyist went to the FBI and told them that he was being held up in a sense for one of his clients to give a campaign contribution in return for a state aid project. So that`s already out. Who else he may have tried to exert influence on, I don`t know. But that`s already in the affidavit.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: When pressed on this issue today, President-elect Obama also said this about his team. Take a listen to this.


OBAMA: I`m confident that no representatives of mine would have any part of any deals related to this seat. I think the materials released by the U.S. attorney reflect that fact. I`ve asked my team to gather the facts of any contacts with the governor`s office about this vacancy.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Don Clark, analyze this, does this completely and, of course, the authorities said that the president-elect had nothing to do with this and cleared him immediately during their initial news conference, but are there any unanswered questions left about whether or not there was any contact at all?

CLARK: Well, I don`t think so and we will know in due course here, but Jane, here`s what took place here in my opinion is that there was more than one source of information once the FBI got involved into this. Clearly someone called and talked to the FBI and gave them a pip and from there, they did a lot of investigation before they got the wiretaps.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Stanley Brand, what`s going to happen next to the attorney general of Illinois says hey, I`m going go to the Supreme Court of Illinois and declare him unfit. But then we could also have a special election. We`ve only got a couple of seconds and what`s your guess as to what will happen?

BRAND: There`s no easy way to get rid of this guy. I think going to the Supreme Court in Illinois is a Hail Mary pass. The impeachment process is long and drawn out as we saw with Bill Clinton. Unless he steps down, there`s no quick way to get this done.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What a nightmare. It`s unbelievable! All right, gentlemen. Stay right there, more on the fallout from the Blagojevich scandal -- not easy to say -- right after the break. Stick with us.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re back taking your calls on this unbelievable Illinois corruption case and Susan from Illinois, your question or thought, ma`am?

SUSAN FROM ILLINOIS: My thought is that we`ve just been waiting for this and there`s going to be more to come and there`s only four percent of us in Illinois that supported him or support him now, that`s his ratio. I mean, he doesn`t even go to the office in Chicago. He should be living in Springfield. That`s where our mansion is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, you know, you make a very good point is that he`s going work every day now since this scandal hit him, but normally he doesn`t go to work. He works out of his house.

Dr. Buzz, what about wife Patti, because there`s a quote here. I am so scared to read it because that`s how many curse words are in it. She`s caught on the phone saying, "Hold up that bleep. Bleep cubs, bleep them." I can`t even read this. There`s too many profanities in it to read.

VON ORNSTEINER: She`s swearing like a drunken sailor. You know what? We all can lose it. That only makes us human. Her she is; she feels that her husband is being persecuted. She`s the wife.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, no, this is long before. This is on the affidavit. There`s a big, thick affidavit and this is secretly taped phone calls. She did not know she was being taped.

VON ORNSTEINER: Look, she swears like a sailor. Maybe that`s her. Maybe that is who she is. She`s very predatory, she`s in real estate. She`s like minded. She`s like minded people, you know, find each other.

We always say that opposites attract. They make for great maybe romantic partners, but similarities make the best partnerships. Similarities make the best marriages and they usually have the same goals. So like-minded people find each other; that`s who she is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Water finds its own level.

Don Clark, they had all these bugs. Now Jesse Jackson, Jr., who has now been identified as candidate # 5 spokes for an hour and a half to the governor right before the scandal broke, but there`s no mention of that conversation. Why would they have not tape recorded that one?

CLARK: Well, you don`t know that they didn`t tape record that conversation, Jane. They could have tape recorded a lot and I suspect that they probably did. Keep in mind now, the process for this is that unless they have some reason to really be tape recording another party then they have to cut off and go back when there`s something that is associated with the probable cause that they have.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re going to have to leave it right there. Thank you, gentlemen, great analysis.

I am Jane Velez-Mitchell and you are watching "ISSUES."


VELEZ-MITCHELL: New reports suggest the prime suspect in the murder of beautiful Arkansas anchorwoman Anne Pressly may have stalked her yet authorities continue to say this was a random crime. What`s fact? What`s fiction? I will have the latest details tomorrow night.

Now it`s time to check in with Nancy Grace.

Nancy, incredible news coming out of Florida tonight.

NANCY GRACE: Jane, potentially the big break police have been waiting for in the disappearance of three-year-old Florida girl Caylee Anthony. As we go to air, skeletal remains of a small child discovered dumped in a plastic bag about 15 houses away from the Anthony home. And according to our sources, Jane, investigators say it is three-year-old Caylee.

At this hour the remains heading to Quantico`s FBI lab, forensic investigators say they`ll work night and day to make an I.D. The bombshell discovery made around the same time the defense attorney publicly announcing Caylee`s alive.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely stunning information and Nancy will have all the latest details.

Nancy Grace starts right now.