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NANCY GRACE
Anthony Grandparents Reportedly Seeking Immunity
Aired December 16, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. As we go to air, police and forensic experts still on the scene, still on the scene where skeletal remains believed to be little Caylee found in a heavily-wooded area, and it`s just 15 houses away from the Anthony home.
A utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag, kicks it. A human skull, a tiny human skull literally rolls out, the trash bag containing nearly a full set of child`s remains, the skull apparently still covered in long, light-colored hair, still intact because of thick industrial duct tape wrapped around the child`s head.
Deputies still digging, searching, even sifting through buckets of dirt for more remains. We have confirmed at this hour, bones still being found scattered along the same location where the skull was found. In court today, a state`s attorney seems to slip up, confirming for the very first time it is the skull of a little girl.
And another bombshell tonight. Are grandparents George and Cindy actually seeking full legal immunity? Today they admit to, quote, "conflicting statements" in the past and now want to cooperate. And just hours ago, the defense in court demanding a second autopsy. Grandparents George and Cindy submit to fingerprinting. Brother Lee only gives in when a subpoena forces him. Top federal investigators working around the clock to identify those remains at Quantico. Tonight, are the remains all that`s left of little Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking developments in the case of missing 3- year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Investigators continue to search the remains site for more evidence after saying they have made significant findings at the location.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That information, obviously, and those items are being sifted through, properly identified, sorted, labeled and submitted into evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At a hearing today, an attorney representing the Orange County sheriff`s office revealed that the skull found is that of a little girl.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What we will not do is we will not release photographs of the -- the skull of this -- this little girl to then be broadcast all over the news before the body has even been identified, before the parents have been notified.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Forensic experts are working to officially identify the remains and have sent some of the evidence to the FBI lab in Quantico to confirm the ID. The attorneys for George and Cindy Anthony confirm that the FBI has taken DNA and fingerprints from George, Cindy and Lee Anthony, while the family remains hopeful that the skull found is not their granddaughter.
CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: My heart is aching because I just want to be back with our family. In my gut, every day, stronger and stronger, I know we`re going to see Caylee. I know she`s coming home. I can feel it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Right. You can feel it. Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Stunning details continue to emerge from the crime scene.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some of the best investigators in the country are here at the scene, sifting through the dirt by hand. They`ve already found dozens of bones and other strong evidence that has led investigators to search the Anthonys` home again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re talking about numerous -- a large area that is being sifted through, being gridded out in order to make sure that no stone, no area is left untouched where the child`s remains were found.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If they were to find duct tape in the Anthonys` home, they`d be looking for fingerprints and DNA that might have stuck to the sticky side of the tape. And they`d be looking to match up the ends where the tape was torn. Now, the trash bag, even if it`s not from the Anthonys` home, could hold a lot of evidence.
CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: Jose said that you said everything would make sense once we found Caylee.
CASEY ANTHONY: Well, yes. Once you have someone that you can talk to, that you can get a real explanation from, that`s known where she has been, it`s going to have to make sense at that point. Once we get Caylee, everything else will figure itself out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. I understand police and investigators are still at the scene?
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: That`s right, and they really aren`t saying when they`re going to be leaving. They said that they`ll stay there until all of the evidence that they can find has been found. Each day, they`re finding more and more stuff. They`ve found, you know, bones pretty much every single day.
That area was also frequented by kids around that, so you can imagine that there`s all sorts of beer cans and debris that`s hidden in there. They have to search through every single thing that they find, so it`s a long, tedious process. Attorney Jose Baez even said today in court that they were taking too long, but Angelo Nieves with the sheriff`s office said today that...
GRACE: Wait a minute. The defense said they`re taking too long to look for the little girl`s bones?
PETRIMOULX: Exactly, and that`s why they want...
GRACE: Man, he`s got a nerve.
PETRIMOULX: ... access to the same site that they`re at.
GRACE: Man, he`s got a nerve because they are trying to put together this child`s skeleton. Does he want the -- does he want her buried with some of her bones still laying out near a playground?
PETRIMOULX: What he wants is access to the site where they`re doing all this searching and where they`re putting together these bones. And he wants to be able to have his experts be at that site while they`re doing this.
GRACE: Straight to Natisha Lance, our producer, who is there at the remains location. What are they doing?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, right now, Nancy, actually, they`ve packed up pretty much for the rest of the night. They will be back out here early tomorrow morning. They said that they actually could be finished tomorrow, but also saying that they could work through tomorrow. So as Drew said, it`s still kind of up in the air right now.
GRACE: What have they been doing out there so late?
LANCE: Doing a lot more sifting. They said that there`s a whole bunch of soil that they have already put to the side, and they are going to go back and look through that again, redoing, recovering. They said it`s pretty tedious. They said it`s an acre of area that they are searching and that they are digging up the soil. And they will continue to continue going over it until they feel comfortable with the fact that they have done their job well.
GRACE: Let`s see a shot, Liz, of the scene there where Natisha is -- Natisha Lance joining us from the scene where the remains were discovered. Natisha, you were in court today, and it`s my understanding one of the state`s attorneys slipped up and actually confirmed it is a child`s skull, a girl`s skull.
LANCE: That`s correct. That`s correct. This was the attorney for the Orange County sheriff`s office, Ann Marie Delahunty. But actually, afterwards, there was a press conference this evening here at the site, and Captain Angelo Nieves from the Orange County sheriff`s office said that this was actually a misstatement, and they said that there have been no definitive results that have come out yet as to gender or the general ID of these remains at this point. And because there`s no definitive results or confirmation, they`re not wanting to have that information out in the public at this point.
GRACE: Straight back to Drew Petrimoulx. Drew, it`s my understanding that there at the scene, they are actually sifting through dirt, like a gold miner would, looking for even the tiniest bones?
PETRIMOULX: Right. And they`re taking a lot of stuff with them. You can -- as you watch their trucks, they`re loading in even sticks, and you know, soil from the ground where they`re actually sifting through that and finding even the most minute little pieces of evidence. And they bring those back to the lab and use microscopes and all kinds of technology that these crime scenes are able to use to see exactly what`s in there. They`re even looking at the bugs that are in the soil to see if there`s signs of decomposition that would bring these bugs in there. So it`s a very complicated process.
GRACE: Take a listen to what happened today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If Mr. Baez wants to make a -- turn this into a public records request, we have the ability to pick and choose photographs that we can waive the exemption on and we can provide them to Mr. Baez. What we will not do is, we will not release photographs of the skull of this little girl to then be broadcast all over the news before the body is has even been identified, before the parents have been notified.
We will pick photographs that we believe are relevant, that can help put markers in the ground and may give them sort of a guidepost to what that crime scene looks like. But that will be at our discretion, and we will do that as quickly and reasonably as possible under our ability to waive the exemption to the...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Also, we learned today that apparently still attached to the skull are long, light-colored hairs attached by duct tape.
Dr. Michael Bell joining us out of Palm Beach, the chief medical examiner there. How can that be, Doctor?
DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH COUNTY CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: How can what be?
GRACE: The fact that after all this time, the hair is still attached to the skull. Is it just because of the duct tape?
BELL: Most likely because, oftentimes, the hair is one of the first things that falls off with decomposition.
GRACE: Dr. Bell, how many bones are in the human body?
BELL: Well, there`s more than 200.
GRACE: So it`s completely reasonable that they are still looking for bones, Doctor?
BELL: Absolutely. And I can assure you, they`re going to be quite small.
GRACE: What do you mean by quite small?
BELL: Really small. They`ll be very hard to see.
GRACE: Two inches, a quarter inch?
BELL: Less than that. Yes, more like a quarter inch, especially in the hands and the feet.
GRACE: I want to go back out to the scene where the remains were discovered. Standing by is Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, who actually is searching -- had been searching for Caylee. Leonard, thank you for being with us. What have you observed today?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: You`re welcome. Well, basically, when we came out here this morning, you could see the sheriff`s crew and at least 30 FBI agents getting ready to go out there. And they`re proceeding much like somebody accused them of doing, which is an archaeological dig. In other words, they`ve got at least an area of 40,000 square feet, which, like Natisha said, it`s about an acre. And they`re going through it very methodical because they have to dig down three to four feet where the little animals that get up in there and take their bones and they take them off to the burrows, their nests.
And there are also -- a lot of kids have buried their parakeets and their cats back there, so there`s an assembly, an assortment of bones back there, and they have to sort through there and get the human bones from the animal bones. You would think it would be that easy, but as the doctor said, there are small bones there sometimes that have to be distinguished.
GRACE: To Nikki Pierce with WDBO. On a different note, is it true that grandparents George and Cindy Anthony are actually seeking legal immunity?
NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: That`s what we`re hearing. Their new attorney, Brad Conway (ph), said in a press conference yesterday, after he read a letter from them seeking privacy, that he will try to seek immunity for the Anthonys, and that they admit to misspeaking in the past, and they won`t make misleading statements anymore.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The reason we stay here very long is, again, because they`re doing a meticulous job out there. They`re doing it very slowly, very methodically in order to make a determination and look at all of the items that are there. If there is something that needs attention, they will continue to provide attention to that. Again, the site will dictate how long they will be here, not the investigators.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When investigators found more bones in the woods, they decided it was time to slow down even more. They`re methodical, carefully sifting through soil, leaves and branches in the large wooded area behind Caylee Anthony`s home. And now they`ve invited more experts into the mix, including specialists in the area of insects and plants, to help determine what happened and how long the bones were here.
Investigators say the skull found here is already in an FBI lab, undergoing DNA analysis. An attorney for the Anthonys says the family is waiting for that absolute confirmation and praying, even though all signs point that it`s Caylee Anthony.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Apparently, grandparents George and Cindy Anthony seeking full immunity and want to cooperate with police. All along, we`d been told they were already cooperating.
Back to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. What can you tell us?
PETRIMOULX: About them -- one more time?
GRACE: Immunity. Immunity.
PETRIMOULX: Yes. We understand that that is what they`re seeking, and they have admitted to making false statements, and now they say they`re going to go back and be reinterviewed and this time, they won`t make conflicting statements.
But I have to add that yesterday, through their attorney, they had mentioned that they still believe that it was Zenaida Gonzalez that kidnapped the child. So if they go back and now are going to tell the truth to investigators, come clean and seek immunity, what will they be telling investigators? It`s going to be really interesting to see since just yesterday, they still are talking about Zenaida Gonzalez.
GRACE: OK, I need to get something straight for clarification. Out to Natisha Lance, who was in court today. She is at the location where the skull was found. Natisha, OK, one reporter says they admit to misleading statements. One says they admit to false statements. One says they admit to conflicting statements. What exactly was said?
LANCE: It was said that they were conflicting statements, admitted to conflicting statements, but in these new interviews that they will be giving, there will be no more conflicting statements.
GRACE: You are seeing video right now of the investigators, literally -- it looks like they`re mining -- panning for gold. They are sifting through buckets and buckets of dirt. They are looking at nearly an acre of land, trying to put together all the remains of this tiny skeleton, a skeleton that is widely believed to be that of little Caylee.
Let`s unleash the lawyers -- we are taking your calls live -- former prosecutor Holly Hughes out of Atlanta, veteran trial lawyer Raymond Giudice and defense attorney and author of "Death`s Witness" Paul Batista joining us out of New York.
Ray Giudice, the grandparents want immunity. What does it mean?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, it means there`s some good lawyering on their behalf going on. That lawyer has recognized that whether there are conflicting statements, confusing or false statements, he wants to prevent them from being indicted and potentially be accessories to this crime. He wants immunity, which means they will not be prosecuted for any statements they may have made.
GRACE: OK. Ray, when you go to the prosecutor hat in hand, asking for immunity, do you have to give the prosecutor a proffer of what you believe your clients can offer you? I mean, why should the state give immunity -- I mean, it`s the 11th hour.
GIUDICE: Right. Sure. Well, that`s what a good lawyer like Paul Batista would do. He`d have that level of credibility with the prosecutor and sit down and say...
GRACE: So is that a yes?
GIUDICE: That`s a yes. He`d make a proffer.
GRACE: OK. No need for sucking up tonight.
GIUDICE: All right, Nancy.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: We`re digging for the body of a little girl.
GIUDICE: Well, I`m trying to help him before you attack him.
GRACE: Batista, what about it?
PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think they`re doing absolutely the right thing in requesting immunity, Nancy. You know...
GRACE: But my question was...
BATISTA: Yes?
GRACE: ... do they have to give the prosecutor a proffer, in other words, a peek preview at what the client is going to say? I mean, why would the prosecutor just offer up immunity without knowing what they`re going to say?
BATISTA: Without a doubt. They have to have real and valuable information to exchange in order to get the benefit of the deal, and the deal in their favor would be immunity. But they have to provide something for it.
GRACE: OK. You know what? Maybe I`m the crazy one. I highly doubt it. But Holly Hughes, isn`t it a day late and a dollar short? We found the body, all right? Why are they coming now to try to help the police in the search for little Caylee?
HOLLY HUGHES, FORMER PROSECUTOR: That`s exactly right, Nancy. What they`re doing now is trying to cover their behinds because, so far, they have not been helpful. They have made conflicting statements. Cindy Anthony admitted that when they wanted the hairbrush for DNA from little Caylee, she was going to give them the wrong one, to the FBI. So what they`re trying to do now is look like they`re doing something helpful.
I don`t think they have anything to offer, quite frankly, Nancy. And what they`re doing is, via their attorney, they`re trying to say, Oh, all of a sudden, now we want to do something. It`s too late. They have the body. They`re going to be able to prove that their daughter was the killer of this child, like we have been saying all along. And so they are running scared, Nancy. That`s all there is to it.
GRACE: Well, listen, I want to get something straight, Holly. A lot of people have called in suggesting the grandparents had something to do with Caylee`s disappearance. I don`t believe that. I don`t believe that for a second.
HUGHES: (INAUDIBLE) Nancy.
GRACE: And also, when they publicly lash out at anyone, that suggests little Caylee is deceased or that the tot mom might be guilty -- you know what? When you`re grieving for your granddaughter and your daughter is about to go to the big house, you lash out at things you don`t want to hear.
HUGHES: Absolutely.
GRACE: And I find that not only is it normal, it`s very -- it`s hurtful because they are going through so much. But this whole immunity deal, that`s a whole `nother ball of wax.
We`re taking your calls. Out to Debra in Tennessee. Hi, Debra.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Real quick, before my question, I just want to say this is the saddest thing here at Christmas. This little girl should be sitting on Santa Claus`s knee instead of laying in a cold, dark autopsy room right now.
My question is, do you -- would it be possible for her little dream team that she`s gathered to take this long, long trail of lies that she`s come up with and turn it into an insanity defense?
GRACE: Oh, listen, Debra in Tennessee, where there`s a will, there`s a way. What about it, Ray Giudice?
GIUDICE: That`s right, Nancy. I agree completely. The caller is very insightful on this matter. This holiday time is just -- it`s a terrible situation. There`s no defense lawyer whose heart doesn`t go out to these people and for this terrible tragedy to this child.
GRACE: Well, I think what she`s asking about is, will they be able to make an insanity plea out of this crock of lies we`ve been hearing from the get-go, Ray?
GIUDICE: I don`t think so, Nancy. I don`t believe that.
GRACE: But will they try? Is that where they`re going?
GIUDICE: I don`t think so. I don`t think they`ve laid the foundation for it. I don`t think of they have the science for it.
GRACE: What else can they do, though, Paul Batista?
BATISTA: They can mount the Zenaida defense, if that`s the route they`re going to pursue, Nancy.
GRACE: Oh, the nanny defense. OK. I`ll be right back with Holly Hughes on that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve just been waiting for closure. I`ve wanted her found, of course, alive. But if this is what we`ve got, then you have to respect her. You have to respect the little child. And it`s just cruel.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body, which evidence shows could be Caylee`s, was wrapped in something before it was stuffed into the trash bag. Casey`s parents, who are in seclusion, provided fingerprints, as did Casey`s brother, Lee, to help investigators exclude them as having any connection to the black trash bag holding the remains, which were found right down the street from the Anthony home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to Natisha Lance, standing by there at the scene where the little child`s skull was found. Natisha, what are sources telling you about mom Casey`s reaction behind bars? We were told when she found out last Thursday remains had been found, she had to take a sedative.
LANCE: That`s correct, Nancy. And also, according to her attorney, Jose Baez, today, he said that she is not doing well. She is taking everything in stride. We did hear from the...
GRACE: Taking it in stride! Did you say she`s taking it in stride?
LANCE: Well, she`s dealing with it as best as possible. He said that he`s keeping her up to date with everything that is going on...
GRACE: OK. Quick...
LANCE: ... in terms of motions, court hearings...
GRACE: Just stop. Stop. She could have been in court today. Why wasn`t she?
LANCE: I would assume that it was probably on advisement from her attorney.
GRACE: OK. Is she on suicide watch?
LANCE: No, she`s not on suicide watch. She was on psychological observation, but she was taken off of that today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Crime scene investigators chop away thick brush with machetes. In these woods, authorities have set up a grid. Just as archeologist might excavate a historical site, crime scene investigators are scooping up buckets of leaves and soil and then pouring them into these sifting tables, searching through the debris by hand.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a process that is going to go very slowly, very deliberately, in order to make sure that nothing is left untouched.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once again, Orange County chief medical examiner, Dr. Jan Garavaglia was out here conferring with the lead detectives. She was joined by anthropologists from UCF, as well as numerous experts on insects, trees and other pertinent fields.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They have an entomologist that`s going to be present, a botanist is going to be present, so what we`re doing is bringing all of the proper experts into a wooded area field where this body was recovered and we want to make sure that we do not -- leave any stone unturned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Investigators and police, experts, just now packing up the scene where a child`s skull was found. Now apparently a trail of bones. They are sifting through dirt by the bucketful, looking for the bones of this little girl, trying to complete a full skeleton.
This, as grandparents, George and Cindy apparently ask for full immunity, and agree to fully cooperate with police. Is that true?
I want to go straight back out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Our sources state that the skull actually had long, light-colored hair attached to it, with duct tape wrapped around it. What do you know?
DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Originally, we thought that the duct tape -- or we had heard that the duct tape was just wrapped around the mouth, maybe to keep her quiet or something, to keep her from screaming or crying.
But we have since learned that reports say that it was actually wrapped all the way around the head with flesh stuck to the duct tape and also hair that was similar to the color and length of Caylee`s.
GRACE: Flesh still on the duct tape?
PETRIMOULX: That`s what reports are saying, Nancy. And I know it`s.
GRACE: What reports? What, what report?
PETRIMOULX: These are leaks that come to different news agencies from, you know, people that are at the scene, investigators. I mean we`ve been getting these leaks throughout the case. It`s hard to pinpoint exactly who`s saying them, but there are reports from investigators inside the scene.
GRACE: To Holly Hughes, former prosecutor -- Holly, you know, the caller from Tennessee, Deborah, just called in, talking about this child should be home at Christmas. And not on one of those metal tables you and I are familiar with in autopsy.
The -- this -- what I am hearing now is stunning. It`s very upsetting. That the child`s flesh may still be on the duct tape? And they`re not seeking the death penalty?
HOLLY HUGHES, PROSECUTOR: Nancy, it`s absolutely heart breaking. But from an evidentiary standpoint, we should be grateful as prosecutors that some of that evidence still remains. You`re absolutely right. You know, and I used to tell my juries that when I was doing a murder case.
GRACE: Well, I`m glad you can look at it that way, Holly. I`m glad you can look at it that way like, you know, you`re in a -- laboratory. But I`m not necessarily grateful that the child`s flesh is still on the duct tape.
HUGHES: Well, Nancy, it`s going to provide great evidentiary value. And ultimately, in order to get justice for Caylee, what we need is good, hard, scientific evidence. This way it`s not an eyewitness that they can say lied, it`s not somebody who got their facts wrong.
Science doesn`t lie, Nancy. And when you have to have such a terrible, terrible tragedy like this, you need to find the silver lining. You need to get justice for Caylee and what`s going to enable us to get that justice is this great forensic evidence that we`re recovering.
There is just no other way to look at it, Nancy. As a prosecutor, you know, you laugh or you cry. You have to find a way to get through these horrible, horrible emotional times and that is focusing on your case and providing the best evidence you can in order to get justice for this baby, who should be on Santa`s lap at Christmas.
GRACE: Back to Leonard Padilla there at the scene. Is that what your sources are telling you regarding the flesh on the duct tape?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, ON LOCATION WHERE CHILD`S REMAINS FOUND: Absolutely. And furthermore, if they can just retrieve a portion of a long -- a piece of a lung to see the nitrogen content, the oxygen content, the chloroform content, they can also evaluate whether it was chloroform or some other situation that led to her death.
I -- I know you disagree with me, but I still maintain the duct tape was placed there on the 18th, two days after the child was dead. She did it in order to make it look like a kidnapping. It was not used to cause the child`s death.
GRACE: To Dr. Michael Bell.
PADILLA: Chloroform was the (INAUDIBLE) to do that.
GRACE: . joining us out of Miami, is it possible that this much later, Doctor, there is still flesh?
DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, I think what they`re probably referring to is when the body decomposes, the outer layer of skin sloughs off. And I suspect that`s probably what they`re referring to.
GRACE: Is that possible? Is that -- does that sound reasonable to you after six months?
BELL: Yes. I mean, if they found hair -- again, hair is nothing more than appendage of the skin. So there may well be still pieces of skin. Again, it`s the outer layer of skin. It`s not the entire layer of skin.
GRACE: Joining us tonight from Vancouver is Professor Rolf Mathewes. He`s a biological sciences professor. He`s a forensic botanist at the Simon Fraser University.
Professor, thank you very much for being with us. Professor, what would an expert like yourself, an expert in forensic botany, play in a crime scene like this one?
PROF. ROLF MATHEWES, BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES FORENSIC BOTANIST, SIMON FRASER UNIV.: Well, there`s a number of options, but one of the first things on the cases that I`ve worked up here in Canada would be to look for something that was foreign to the scene, like plant material that was not native to the area where a body had been recovered, for example.
Something -- flowers from a garden or from house plant or leaves tracked in from a car mat that shouldn`t have been to that site, because that plant doesn`t grow there. That`s often included to make a link or a connection to another person, another site or something.
And secondly, when you go to a site like this, there`s a whole bunch of local site things that need to be done after you photograph it all at its original state. That can be very important, actually, before you start cutting a trail and then collecting evidence.
There`s all sorts of things that might relate to disturbance at the time, someone walked in to drop a body, they would break branches or stir up the vegetation in some way. If there was some sort of a grave dug, the turning and disturbance of soil will often cause local vegetation to change.
You will see young plants coming up that were not necessarily there initially, and they will actually (INAUDIBLE) or a grave area. See, I -- all I have is reports from CNN and watching your show. I have no direct connection to this case in any way. But I`ve worked on similar cases in Canada, and intrigued by some of the similarities.
GRACE: Professor Mathewes, quickly, I believe that plants found under water are different from those found above ground. And how could that in this case help determine when the body was placed there?
MATHEWES: Again, I don`t know the specifics of the case, but I understand the site was wet. But I suspect since Caylee disappeared, I think I believe sometime in mid June, I suspect it may have been dryer, and you know, that wetness may be part of the fall changeover and climate and weather.
GRACE: Right.
MATHEWES: So it`s very hard -- certainly water plants are going to be very different. And if water plants are intimately associated with it, that tells you something about when the water level was high enough to.
GRACE: Right. Right.
MATHEWES: . have aquatic plants there.
GRACE: With us is Professor Rolf Mathewes joining us from Vancouver.
Very quickly to the lines, Laura in North Carolina, hi, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I`m wondering how -- I can understand Jose Baez defending Casey pro bono. Everybody is entitled to a good defense. But how is she getting all of these high-profile attorneys and forensic specialists to defend her?
GRACE: Good question. You know, I asked Dr. Henry -- I asked Dr. Henry Lee that on the air and he told me he was working the case pro bono.
What about it, Nikki Pierce? It`s quite an assemblage of experts they`ve got.
NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: It certainly is. And Jose Baez has not directly said one way or the other who is being paid and who isn`t, and how they`re being paid. We do keep hearing pro bono being tossed around a lot. Even Brad Conway, the grandparents` new attorney also said yesterday in a press conference that he was working for free. So we`re not hearing about how anything is being paid for.
GRACE: Very quickly, to John McKillop, former homicide detective at Glendale P.D. with Noble Security, joining us from L.A.
Question: the FBI have taken DNA samples from George and Cindy Anthony. Why?
JOHN MCKILLOP, FMR. HOMICIDE DET., GLENDALE P.D., V.P., NOBLE INC. SECURITY: Well, they have to assemble as much evidence as they can early on. It`s going to be either used to include or exclude everyone involved in the case.
GRACE: When will they release this crime scene?
MCKILLOP: You know, I hear timeframes all the time and I can tell you this. No one should be discussing timeframes. It will be -- it will be released when it`s done.
GRACE: With us, John McKillop, former homicide detective and now V.P. at Noble, Inc. Security out of L.A.
Very quickly, we are stopping to remember the mother of Tennessee friend of the show, Martha Dugger. She was 87 years old. Evelyn Addison. She was so proud of her six grandchildren, her children, her five great grandchildren.
She actually worked for the government during World War II on a secret project. It turned out to be the atomic bomb. A few years ago, she was diagnosed with Alzheimer`s, and she battled it bravely, to the end.
We miss you, Evelyn, and our thoughts and prayers to you and your family at this time of sorrow.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It almost never happens. A murder victim and crime scene discovered and processed weeks after a defendant is already indicted in the murder. But that`s what defense attorneys Jose Baez and Jose Garcia are dealing with as they try to get the evidence to their team of experts before its value is lost.
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: We are in a situation where it is no longer a crime scene. It has become more of an excavation site.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judge Stan Strickland denied the motions for immediate access to photos, videos, and drawings of the scene and to block the medical examiner from doing more tests that may alter the remains.
Strickland also suggested the defense experts` visit to the crime scene Saturday may have just motivated authorities to be more thorough and take more time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) you have time clock on an investigation and if law enforcement doesn`t do an absolutely exhaustive job, then defense counsel is going to argue that his investigation was completely shoddy and incompetent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The judge just hours ago denying the defense motions for their being present there on the scene while the excavation is taking place for their representatives being at the FBI crime lab while the tests are being done. A myriad of requests made in court today by the defense.
Casey Anthony had the opportunity to be in court today, but declined to do so.
We are taking your calls live. Out to Jennifer in Maryland. Hi, Jennifer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. First I want to thank you for following this story so closely. It`s really heart-breaking.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, has Casey ever given a description of this Zanny, the pretend nanny, at all?
GRACE: Oh, yes.
Out to Natisha Lance, what is the description she gave of Zanny, the nanny, the alleged kidnapper?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: She said that she was about 5`7", 140 pounds, brown hair, brown eyes. This brown hair was curly, but it had been straightened and previously in her interview she has said that this nanny was biracial, African-American and Hispanic.
GRACE: I want to talk about the fact that the grandparents are -- George and Cindy Anthony, are apparently requesting full immunity.
Natisha, you stated that their representative says they have given conflicting statements in the past. But they`re still sticking with the nanny did it? How can that be?
LANCE: Yes. This is according to their attorney, Brad Conway. He is saying that they still believe that Zenaida Gonzalez is involved with this investigation, and with the missing of Caylee Anthony.
Now, he also said that he is going to be meeting with prosecutors to seek immunity for the Anthonys and whatever conflicting statements that they have had in the past, they will not be making these conflicting statements in the future when they meet with investigators.
GRACE: But, to Dr. Janet Taylor, psychiatrist, joining us from New York, can they be trusted, Doctor? Because not that they`re intentionally trying to hurt the investigation, but they are intentionally trying to protect their daughter.
DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Well.
GRACE: And do you blame them? I -- don`t necessarily blame them. But how can they one day say nanny -- the nanny did it, and the next day say we want to be straight with cops, and PS, we want full immunity.
TAYLOR: Well, I think there are a couple factors here. The first is they are parents and as parents`, their first job and primary job is to protect their daughter, and then they`re also facing the loss of their grandchild in a very just horrible way. And it is a tragedy.
But secondly, this has been a grueling process, six months. I mean, the only thing that`s probably been able to keep them going on, facing the media, looking for Caylee, is the fact that they believe that someone else took their granddaughter.
If they didn`t believe that, I would think it would be impossible for them to sustain the level of energy that they have had.
GRACE: You know, Doctor, I think you`re absolutely correct. And I`m being an armchair shrink now, but they have, even when they`re lashing out at those of us that suggest little Caylee was deceased, and that the tot mom is responsible. Even when they`re lashing out, they seem real and genuine, and acting out of love for their daughter. But at this juncture, they have got to realize that they have been misled.
Doctor, will they ever really believe it?
TAYLOR: Well I think, you know, when the technology comes in and when the forensics come in, if, in fact, it is little Caylee, then I think they`re going to have to believe it and try to figure out exactly what happened to their granddaughter.
And if their daughter is involved, that will definitely change their whole perspective and their demeanor.
GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who has searched for little Caylee, he is joining us there at the scene where the skull was found.
Leonard, something in that bag, in that black trash bag, made police go back into the night, into the wee hours of the morning, searching the Anthony home, keeping the Anthonys from coming home from California to their own home. They had to go to a hotel.
What are your sources telling you was in that bag? It wasn`t just the bag itself.
PADILLA: No, no. It was the bag, plus the plumber`s tape, plus the linen pillow case, a sheet that she was wrapped in. They needed to.
GRACE: Now how do you know it was a -- how do you know that, that it was a pillow case? Or a sheet?
PADILLA: Because they picked up pillow cases and sheets at the house to compare. The other thing I want to bring to your attention, have you heard the song that the little girl sings about.
GRACE: Yes.
PADILLA: OK. Do you know what the word is that she`s -- that is hard to understand? It`s not "Don`t take my sunshine away." It`s "Don`t take my nana away." That was the nickname that she had for Cindy, so which is a very sad thing. But that`s what she`s saying.
Now here`s another thing. Earlier in one of the recordings there at the jail Casey says that when they find the little girl, she`s going to be able to explain a lot of things as to where she has been and things of that nature.
This little girl, when they get her in that lab in Quantico, she is going to speak volumes louder than Casey ever thought. She is going to give up liquids, in the lungs possibly, nitrogen, oxygen, she`s going to give cause of death, when, where and how. She`s going to speak volumes.
GRACE: Back out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Conflicting reports tonight as to whether flesh was actually attached to the duct tape, wrapped around the child`s head. What can you tell me about pillow cases or linens being found in that bag?
PETRIMOULX: I know that pillow cases were taken from the Anthony house when they went back and served that latest search warrant on the house, was something that was taken along with vacuum cleaners and some chemicals from the house.
And you know, what I`ve talked to people that said that that was possibly for is that if there was hair found in that bag, they may have been trying to take pillow cases from the house to try to recover hair from the house so they can compare those.
If you remember, there may be some discrepancies over the hair that they originally recovered from the house because Cindy may have gave (sic) them the wrong brush.
GRACE: Right. Right.
To Liann in Texas, hi, Liann.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, since the bones have been found, nobody has mentioned about how she looked up how to properly break a neck. And yet they say the duct tape was first around the mouth, now they`re saying it was around the whole head.
Well, that`s my question. My daughters and I keep wondering why haven`t they mentioned about her breaking the neck.
GRACE: Well, apparently, they`ll have to get the bones to the crime lab to determine whether the neck was actually broken. Isn`t that correct, Dr. Bell?
BELL: Yes, although the neck is fairly flexible on a child. And it may be impossible to see any fractures themselves. You can still break it and not leave any fractures.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: We miss her. We love her. I miss her, I love her dearly, and I want nothing more than for her to come home and to be safe and to be where she belongs with her family.
It`s obvious that we`ll stop at nothing to get her back. Because I know in my heart, I know in my gut, I know with every ounce of my being, that we will be with her again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to the lawyers. Holly Hughes, Ray Giudice, Paul Batista.
In a nutshell, Paul Batista, we understand that while the grand parents George and Cindy submitted to fingerprinting, that brother Lee wouldn`t. He only gave in when issued a subpoena. Explain.
PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "DEATH`S WITNESS": Well, the government has the right to fingerprints and hair samples and DNA. And you can voluntarily turn it over, Nancy, or it can be compelled through a subpoena, and apparently the brother waited for that to happen.
GRACE: And my question, I`ll repeat it to Holly Hughes, why? Why not? If you are willing to cooperate and you want to help find your niece, why do you insist on a subpoena?
HUGHES: He`s not willing to cooperate. He is furious at the authorities for arresting his sister. He is still acting out. This is the man who went out and ripped down a memorial to his 3-year-old niece.
GRACE: Well, you know, on that.
HUGHES: Why would he do that?
GRACE: On that -- I don`t know but I see that as acting more out of grief. But the fingerprint thing -- and very quickly, Ray Giudice, these tapes, if this is little Caylee, show her leading her family down the garden path all these months.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy, look, it`s going to be game over on this case pretty soon. Not to be frivolous. The technology and the science is going to come back. There`s a real reason why the parents are -- the grandparents are seeking immunity.
GRACE: You know what, Ray, on this count, I have to agree with you.
Let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Jason Cox, 21, Elyria, Ohio, killed Iraq. Loved to work with his hands. Rebuilt a Mitsubishi with his buddies before shipping out. Wanted to become a diesel mechanic. Planned to be married.
Leaves behind parents Gregory and Kathy, brothers, Matthew and Ryan, also active in the military.
Jason Cox, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And happy birthday to one of our superstars, Rachel. She ducked out on us yesterday to avoid this close-up.
Happy birthday, sweet girl.
Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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