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Did Private Eye Know Where Casey`s Body Was?; Caylee Anthony Murder; Madoff Should be Locked Up

Aired January 7, 2009 - 19:00:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, more bombshells. Stunning twists and turns in the Caylee Anthony murder investigation, as Nancy Grace conducts an exclusive interview with the psychic who, months ago, videotaped herself at the very location where little Caylee`s remains were later found.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was like someone punched you in the stomach. It knocks the air right out of you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You won`t believe why she says she didn`t race to tell the authorities about her gut feeling.

What`s your take on this bizarre development? We`ll take your calls.

Plus, the double standard of American justice, brought to you by the Bernie Madoff case. Why does a guy who steals a TV set have to wait for his trial in a jail cell, while a guy who allegedly swipes $50 billion lives the lush life in his fancy New York penthouse? More outrage as America says, "It`s time for Bernie to go to jail."

ISSUES starts now.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Major breaking news off the top tonight in the Caylee case. This one`s a real shocker. Just in: one of the private eyes working with the Anthony family now reportedly says the other private eye was working for the Anthony family and knew where the body was long before it was discovered on December 11.

This is a really shocking allegation with huge ramifications. This private eye, Jim Hoover, videotaped the scene on November 15 with the second private investigator visible on the videotape. Hoover is said to have met with the FBI and handed over that crucial videotape. We will have the latest stunning development in just a second.

Also, shocking footage and an incredible interview with a famed psychic who also visited the Caylee Anthony crime scene months before Caylee`s remains were discovered at that very location.

Nancy Grace had the exclusive. You will not believe your ears. Listen to this.


NANCY GRACE, HOST, "NANCY GRACE": What did you experience when you got to that location?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, it`s pretty phenomenal. And I`ve had it happen before in the case of when there`s bodies. It was like someone punched you in the stomach. It knocks the air right out of you. You feel like you can`t breathe. And it`s almost a -- an utter panic feeling.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Also, will Casey Anthony have to answer tough questions from the lawyers for Zenaida Gonzalez? That woman, whose name will now be forever linked with Anthony`s so-called "Zanny the Nanny," is seeking damages in a civil suit. A judge will rule tomorrow if Casey has to face a grilling.

A new development in prosecutor`s attempts to limit access to photos and x-rays of Caylee`s skeletal remains. Their fear: the images will be sold to the highest bidder for public consumption. That is too sick for words.


BRAD CONWAY, ANTHONY FAMILY ATTORNEY: The Anthonys do not want these photographs released to anyone that doesn`t need to see them. Right now the only people that need to see them are the state attorneys, the M.E.`s office, and the defense. Period.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So much to talk about tonight. I want to hear from you. Give me a holler: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297 to weigh in.

But first, let`s get back to our shocking headline, that a private eye working with the Anthonys says another P.I. who was working for the Anthonys knew back in November that Caylee was dead. Knew back in November that Caylee was dead and where the remains were.

Joining me now by phone with her exclusive report, WFTV`s Kathy Belich.

Kathy, first of all, kudos on a big scoop. Well done. What is the very latest?

KATHY BELICH, WFTV REPORTER: Well, today that private eye that you mentioned with the videotape, James Hoover, sat down with the lead investigators from the sheriff`s office and the FBI and gave them information, gave them a ten-minute videotape. The information might end up being more incriminating.

What we`ve been told by Hoover`s attorney -- and we reported this -- is that the other private eye working for the Anthonys, Dominic Casey, knew where to search and what to look for, and he went to that scene to do a detailed search. He went there twice with James Hoover in November, the 15th and 16th. And then we`re told tonight that Dominic Casey also went back at least two other times. We don`t know whether he was alone.

We know that Dominic Casey had several cell phones, which was very helpful to investigators. Because Hoover told investigators today that Dominic Casey made multiple, numerous phone calls from that scene, some of them on videotape, others not. There is some audio on that videotape, but it`s not clear. And it might be able to be enhanced.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the big question is who told Dominic Casey, if this is, in fact, true -- and obviously this is one man`s word, apparently, against another. I`d be interesting to find out what Dominic Casey has to say about all this. But the big question is who told him to go there?

BELICH: Exactly. That is the big question. Those numerous phone calls that he made. Investigators will obviously be getting his phone records.

When detectives left the meeting with James Hoover today, they called the information that they got very helpful. That`s the way they described it, that it`s helping them move forward in this investigation.

Now, I have to tell you, Dominic Casey has told us in the past that he was talking to his daughter. He only alluded to one phone call. However, again, we heard today that there were numerous phone calls on both of those days when Dominic Casey went to the scene with James Hoover.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, when the detectives say that it`s very helpful, the obvious implication is that somehow is goes back to Casey Anthony. Is there a way to -- to follow the daisy chain if, in fact, it would lead back to Casey Anthony?

BELICH: Well, you have to figure that the information as to where the body would be, would be information that only the killer and those close to the killer, whoever that is, would know.

These investigators have charged Casey Anthony with first-degree murder, and that`s their suspect. That`s who they`re focusing on. So, you know, if they`re saying it`s very helpful, I don`t know what other conclusion you could draw.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right. That`s game, set, match if, in fact, all of this pans out the way we`re describing it. This is an absolutely astounding story.

And my question to you, Kathy, is what kind of charges could this private investigator face? And again, he is saying -- because I remember he said this, "If I`d stumbled across the body, I would have prayed, and I would have called 911 and waited at the location."

So he appears to be at this point denying this. But what -- do you have any idea of what he could face?

BELICH: I don`t because I don`t know exactly the circumstances. Now, I do have to make clear that, according to Hoover, they did not -- at least when Hoover was there -- did not find the body at that location. Although, Hoover`s attorney told us tonight they were very close, as it turns out. But when Hoover was there with Casey, he says they did not find the body.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. I have one final question, because I know you`re busy. And again, this is a big scoop on your part. So congratulations for helping solve this mystery that`s really obsessed the entire nation, if not the world.

How could they have not found it, if the meter reader, Roy Kronk, was there and stumbled across this garbage bag with a skull that came tumbling out? I mean, this was not something he dug up. So if they were there how many times and they didn`t find this?

BELICH: I don`t know. I mean, that`s the big question. I asked if there was water at the location. Dominic Casey said there was. James Hoover said he did not see water. You saw the video that the psychic apparently shot in August. You see how heavily wooded -- and there`s a lot of brush in that area.

Now, what it looked like in November, I have no idea, as opposed to December. I mean, we have, you know, we have some leaves falling in this area. And so it might have been cleared out a little bit later in the fall.


BELICH: That`s a big question.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Kathy, I know you have to get back to work. Great job once again. So get back to it. I want to turn now to my panel. Thomas Luka, attorney for Casey Anthony`s brother, Lee Anthony; Vinny Parko, private investigator and commentator for TruTV; and Jayne Weintraub, criminal defense attorney.

Thomas, I`d like to start with you. You actually spoke to Dominic Casey today. What does he have to say about all of this? He`s the man at the center of the storm right now.

THOMAS LUKA, ATTORNEY FOR LEE ANTHONY: Well, yes, that is correct. I did speak with Mr. Casey this afternoon. And he flatly denied that he ever told Mr. Hoover anything that Mr. Hoover is alleging.

As far as he knows, he never had any -- he never had any conversations with Mr. Hoover about the possible location of any remains of Caylee or anything having to do with the case. He flatly denies that he ever made that statement. And he believes that Mr. Hoover is not telling the truth.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What`s -- what`s Hoover`s motivation, though? Why would he do this?

LUKA: Well, look at it from the -- look at it from the other perspective. If Hoover did have this information back in November, why didn`t he call the police back in November? Why is he waiting until now January to inform everyone that he -- he knew about this all the way back in November?


JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He got a great offer from the tabloids.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jayne -- Jayne Weintraub, I hear you, and I want to hear more from you. Give us the big picture here as an attorney. Who could face charges if this is true? Remember, at this point, this is one private investigator`s word against another`s.

WEINTRAUB: And it`s really stunning. You said it correctly, Jane. This is a shocking development. Why? As a defense lawyer, the thought of an arm in my office as important as my investigator going into the police or the FBI and giving them privileged information or confidential information used in our defense, it boggles the mind, how any investigator can think he`s going to maintain his license without being in violation of some rule.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second. Wait, wait, wait, wait. I would think that -- Vinny Parko, you`re a private eye. You`d be in violation of the rules if you didn`t go and report if you knew that there was a dead body out there that was the subject of a murder investigation.

VINNY PARKO, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Definitely. Now, the problem that you have is that Dominic Casey worked for the family, not the attorney. So he has no privilege. He has -- he has an absolute obligation to tell the authorities if he saw the body. Otherwise...

WEINTRAUB: The body wasn`t there then.

PARKO: Well, you know, everybody says the body was there or wasn`t there. You have a psychic. You have a meter reader. You have everybody...

WEINTRAUB: Oh, please. You`re going to rely on a psychic?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now everybody -- but look, there were a lot of people who pointed -- but the point is, Vinny, what`s his -- let`s talk -- let`s break it down. What`s his professional responsibility as a private investigator? Is it to go to the police and say, "Hey, somebody told me a dead body was there. This is the subject of your murder investigation. I want to report that"? Or is his professional obligation to the people we works for?

PARKO: His obligation is to tell the authorities. The -- his clients are clients. But he has no -- he doesn`t have to violate the law to please his clients.

And how did he know about this place? There`s too many crazy questions on this -- on this investigation. And it`s like the Keystone Kops over here. I would think that he was told where the body was. And I don`t know if he told Mr. Hoover or Mr. Hoover is making this up, but it sounds like Mr. Hoover is covering his behind.


WEINTRAUB: Sounds like he`s making a financial deal somewhere.


WEINTRAUB: Because he`s the one who volunteered his services to come down.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, wait. He`s a volunteer. Let`s remember that Jim Hoover is a volunteer.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. He was a volunteer with the Anthony family.

WEINTRAUB: He`s also part of this thing.

PARKO: He`s working for the attorney. And the attorney is working for Casey Anthony.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Look, it`s -- it`s a can of worms.

PARKO: A big one. A big can of worms.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to talk to Jayne Weintraub about this specifically. If somebody knows, has been told that there is a body somewhere and knows that it`s a murder investigation, particularly one that the entire world is obsessed with, couldn`t they be charged with obstruction or aiding and abetting for -- for not going to the police?

WEINTRAUB: I understand why you`re asking the question. And I`m sure that most people in this country would understand that the answer should be, well, of course that`s obstructing justice, but that`s not true. It`s not obstructing justice, because obstructing justice is hindering or interfering in some way with the investigation.

They`re just sitting on their hands. They are not interfering, tampering, or obstructing anything. They`re not stopping anything.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Going to the actual location and videotaping it, going there not once but repeatedly?

WEINTRAUB: Jane, they`re preserving evidence so that when the state police come in there, for example, and say, you know, "Well, we found the body, and the body was there all along," they`re going to be able to prove, "Excuse me. We videotaped that area where you thought you should be. And there was nothing there."

My question is they have no right, and they do have obligations and responsibilities professionally not to go to the FBI...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Hold that thought.

WEINTRAUB: ... and reveal those things in an interview today.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold that thought.

Just a reminder: Nancy Grace is up immediately following this program at 8 p.m. Eastern. Do not miss it as she drops the latest bombshells in the Caylee Anthony investigation and analyzes all of this. We have lots more to cover here.

Do you think Casey Anthony will have to testify, for example, about Zanny the nanny? Call 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297. And tell me what you think about all of these shocking developments. So much breaking news. We`re back in just a minute.




CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: No, no, no, I know. I`m sorry. Just wondering if there`s anything else you want me to tell Caylee because everybody -- you know, I always get an opportunity to speak to the media. And if you want me to say to Caylee anything you want?

CASEY ANTHONY: Just tell her that I love her and that I miss her. I mean, that`s the constant.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That was Casey Anthony speaking to her parents from jail last July.

I want to hear what you think about the shocking developments in the Caylee Anthony murder case. Give me a call: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877- 586-7297.

And once again, we`re talking about the fact that one private eye is saying another private eye who`s working for the Anthony family told him back in November that Caylee was deceased and where the body was.

Let`s go straight to the phones. Sue in New Jersey, your question or comment, ma`am.

CALLER: Hi, yes. My question is with the maintenance worker who worked -- called in three days in a row. If he was that suspicious and whatnot, and that close, wouldn`t it still have been a smell from the decomposing body?

WEINTRAUB: That`s a good question.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Vinny Parko, private eye. So much of this does not add up.

PARKO: No. There might be -- you remember when a body is decomposed like that, and it was only skeletons. There was no flesh. And the bones would have somewhat of an odor. But it would be the same odor as the surrounding area. There wouldn`t be any distinct odor that this man -- but he could open the bag and look inside and see if the skeleton...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, apparently what I`ve heard from meter readers across the country, who have called, very irate about this issue, was that they`re apparently instructed not to go around and open things and do their own investigations. If they see something, they`re supposed to call and sort of leave it alone. And that`s what I`ve been told by other meter readers.

I want to get back to this big issue of what the professional and legal responsibility was of a private investigator if, in fact, the claims of another private investigator are true. And he told one P.I. to another, "Hey, we know that Caylee is dead, and we know where the remains are. Let`s go over there November 15 and videotape."

Thomas Luka, you are the attorney for Casey Anthony`s brother, Lee. What do you think his responsibility was?

LUKA: Mr. Hoover`s or Mr. Casey`s?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Mr. Casey`s if, in fact, it`s true that he knew -- somebody told him that little Caylee was dead and here`s where you can find the body.

LUKA: Well, obviously, if, in fact, that was true at that point, he would have a duty to, obviously, inform his clients first. And then he would have a lawful duty to -- to preserve the scene, as previously instructed. But I think he also would have an obligation to call 911.

I disagree with Jane`s arguments that the -- that the -- it`s not tampering with evidence. Again, the statutes in Florida are very broad as far as the tampering with evidence, obstructing of justice. Failing to report a crime can be charged in some circumstances. So in this case...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jayne, you`re being -- you`re being dissed right now.

WEINTRAUB: I mean, failing to report a crime, I have never in 26 years in process as a prosecutor under Janet Reno for eight years doing homicide or in the past 20 years as a defense lawyer ever heard of that charge being brought. I mean, that`s absurd.

What I think the Orange County sheriff`s office people are doing is scrambling. They are running all over the place. They are threatening everybody with everything under the sun. They want to have the mother testify against the daughter.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This was a -- this was a local news station that said they talked to this private investigator after he walked away from detectives and the FBI after handing them a ten- minute videotape.

WEINTRAUB: What was he doing talking to the FBI? Excuse me. He`s got a work product privilege. They cannot...


PARKO: Dominic Casey does not have...

WEINTRAUB: ... do that. He goes, speak to the police.

PARKO: He does not have a work product privilege.

LUKA: Exactly.

PARKO: He`s working for the family. He has no privilege at all.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s not the one who -- OK, it`s so confusing. That`s not the one who talked to the detectives. It was Jim Hoover who talked to the detectives.

PARKO: Jim Hoover does have privilege working for the attorney. However, if he saw a crime committed, as a licensed private investigator, he has an obligation and a duty to tell the authorities what he knows.

WEINTRAUB: ... a crime committed? He didn`t see a crime committed. We`re talking about discovering evidence that may be used in the prosecution of...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Just from a human standpoint, Jayne, the entire nation is obsessed with this case. This poor child, you know, nobody knows Cindy and George Anthony. Their lives are devastated.

From a human angle, don`t you let people know, "Hey, we`ve gotten this tip? This is what -- I mean, there -- this is --OK, this is -- I have to ask you this question. Because here`s where I`m getting confused, OK? And that is if the Anthonys did not know about this, which certainly, we`re presuming they did not, because we don`t know who told Dominic.

In fact, if he was told, wouldn`t Dominic`s responsibility have been to tell his clients? And wouldn`t, then, their responsibility have been to tell the authorities, since they`re the grandparents, and they presumably want to find the child?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m asking Thomas Luka. Because you`re the one who represents the brother of Casey Anthony. I mean, this -- these people were working for the Anthony family.

LUKA: Absolutely. If, in fact, that did happen, it`s both the Anthonys and Mr. Casey`s responsibility to notify law enforcement. And that did not happen. And Mr. Casey has denied that he ever -- he located any remains. And he also denies that he spoke to Mr. Hoover. So to me this is a non-issue.

What we have is one private investigator who`s basically selling his story to the highest bidder, it sounds like, to try and get himself on TV, to try and...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we`ve got to stop there. But I don`t want to - - I don`t want to accuse anybody of anything. We`ve got more twists and turns in this case. Give me a call: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. Call me now.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What has your life been like?

ZENAIDA GONZALEZ, SUING OVER USE OF HER NAME: Horrible. Horrible. My name is -- because it`s not so much because they know my face. It`s more or less because they know my name. So they know my name, everywhere I go. They`re obviously insinuating that I did something wrong, because my name is so much in the news. So I haven`t been able get a job, haven`t been able to do much of nothing because everybody is just judging me by my name.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that is Zenaida Gonzalez, who is suing Casey Anthony for essentially accusing her of ruining her life by connecting her to Zanny the nanny.

We`re back discussing the latest shockers in the Caylee Anthony murder investigation: this claim that has come out tonight by one private investigator that a private investigator working for the Anthony family knew a month before the child`s remains were found that, in fact, Caylee was deceased and where the remains would ultimately be found. And went there and, with the other private eye, actually videotaped it.

The phone lines lighting up. Glenna, California. Your question or thought, ma`am?

OK, let`s go to Rosemary, Connecticut.

CALLER: Yes. I`d like to know why they never did a composite of Caylee`s -- Casey`s description of Zenaida Gonzalez. I`m sure she`s not the only Hispanic with that name, the one that`s now suing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. One of the things is -- and I think I can answer that question. Is that the Zenaida Gonzalez who is suing -- and, yes, it is a rather common name. Even though it seems unusual, in Florida, apparently it`s common. Is that Zenaida is suing because she`s the one who was at the Sawgrass Apartment complex, filling out a form, possibly inquiring about maybe living there. And Casey Anthony claimed that that`s where she dropped little Caylee off on June 9, the last time that she ever saw her. And so that`s where the nexus is of that particular Zenaida Gonzalez and this case.

Now, the fact is that that story was a lie. It was proved to be a lie when videotapes surfaced of Caylee still alive with her great-grandfather on Father`s Day several days later. And then Casey changed the story. And depending on who you talk to, she said things like, "Oh, Zanny the nanny kidnapped her from a park."

It`s hard to keep track of all the different stories. So that`s an answer to that question.

I want to go back to Thomas Luka and talk about the stunning development with this allegation now that Jim Hoover says Dominic Casey, the private eye for the Anthony family, knew where the body was a month earlier.

You have said that you`re afraid that your client, Casey`s brother, Lee, is afraid of getting charged with obstruction and aiding and abetting. We`ve heard that Cindy and George, the grandparents, have asked, through their attorney, for immunity. Why are they so afraid? Is there a connection to this?

LUKA: Well, like Jane, I`m also a former prosecutor. Also in Miami under Catherine (ph) Fernandez Rundel, not...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. But why? Are they afraid? Are your clients afraid that they`re going to be connected to the private eye having this knowledge?

LUKA: Well, no, of course not. But they are afraid of, though, is that they have not been -- any murder investigation. A prosecutor`s duty is to explore every opportunity, every facet of that investigation, and to try and crowbar in every possible witness they can against the defendant or the suspect.

In this case, that could be Mr. Anthony, meaning Lee, or it could be her mother or father.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ten seconds. Did Lee tell Dominic this information? Yes or no.

LUKA: No, he did not.


LUKA: Dominic -- absolutely not.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, all right. Hang tight, everybody. Much more to cover on the Caylee Anthony investigation. I`m taking viewer calls: 1-877- 586-7297. Back in a minute.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN ANCHOR: We`re back, and we want answers. Why isn`t Bernie Madoff behind bars? Is there a flaw in our system or is swindling $50 billion and dozens of innocent people`s entire life savings not offensive enough?

And as Casey Anthony`s waits for her murder trial more stunning developments. A "Nancy Grace" exclusive interview with a psychic who says she felt sick and panicked this past summer when she went to the very location where little Caylee`s remains were later found.

I`ll be taking your calls on the case against billion-dollar scam artist, Bernie Madoff in just a moment. Call me. 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877- 586-7297. Let me know what you think and why it`s taking so long to throw this dirt bag in the slammer.

But first, we`re continuing our conversation on the latest shocking developments in the Caylee Anthony murder investigation joined again by my fantastic panel. I know Vinny Parco, a famed private investigator and commentator for TruTV wants to jump in. You`ve got some got some thoughts? Take it away.

VINNY PARCO, COMMENTATOR TRUTV AND PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: There`s a thing called the thousand and one rule. If you lied to a federal agent, you could be charged with perjury. Now, if this investigator spoke to the FBI and additionally to the police, he must have something very important to say.

I don`t know if this Dominick Casey spoke to the FBI. Because if one of them is lying, they could be charged not only with obstruction, but with lying to a federal officer, which is the thousand and one rule, so I would have to think --

JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s not a rule Vinny, that`s a law exactly.

PARCO: That`s a law, ok, I call it a rule. Ok, that`s fine. I`m not an attorney.

WEINTRAUB: But the bottom line is in Florida, if the private investigator was subpoenaed and insisted on a subpoena, to us as lawyers and anyone in the system, everybody knows that confers immunity.

PARCO: Right.

WEINTRAUB: Somebody wants immunity, that means they`re being threatened with a crime or something like that in order to --

PARCO: But that never came up -- I was just told -- I was told on this case that he spoke to the FBI, no one said anything about a subpoena. Now, how come the other investigator didn`t speak to the FBI?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s an excellent question. Thomas Luka, has Dominick Casey -- you talked to him today -- has he talk to authorities?

THOMAS LUKA, LEE ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: Yes, he has talked to authorities in the past.

PARCO: No, no, what about now?

LUKA: Well, he`s not talked to them today. He may talk to them tomorrow. I have no idea.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Are they trying to get to him? Are they seeking to interview him?

WEINTRAUB: Why don`t they just go into the lawyer`s office and try to pierce that veil of confidentiality as well. I mean, where are they going? She is already charged and indicted for the murder; they`re not supposed to be looking for evidence they`re supposed to have gathered new evidence to be ready for trial.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thomas Luka, here`s something that`s always bothered me about this location. The friends of Casey Anthony say this is where she hung out when she was a kid. They told cops to look there. That`s where she always hung out. That`s where she would drop a body if she were going to do so.

And yet it didn`t seem that the family had that same reaction. I would think that let`s say Lee, for example, Casey`s brother would know where she hung out as a kid and would have immediately said, let`s check there a long time ago.

LUKA: Exactly. And believe it or not, I don`t know where this information is coming from because as far as Mr. Anthony is concerned and the Anthony - - Cindy and George, that area has always been fenced in and private.

And the kids never played there as children. They went to school near that area. But they never used that particular area AS a playground or a hiding place or anything.

So I don`t know where this other information is coming up.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, it seems that everybody and his brother was visiting that location a long time before tragically little Caylee Anthony`s remains were found here. Here`s TV psychic Gale St. John, who show body hunter.

She`s telling Nancy Grace in an exclusive last night what happened when she visited this crime scene, the very location we`re talking about back in August. Listen.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My stomach is sick. It`s sick.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, there`s no logic, yes.

NANCY GRACE, HLN ANCHOR: Somebody in the car actually got nauseous when you got to the location?

GALE ST. JOHN, TV PSYCHIC: Yes. Yes. And that`s a feeling that goes with it when you come upon a body. That`s frequent.

GRACE: Did you alert police?

ST. JOHN: Did I alert police at that moment? No, I did not alert the police.

GRACE: At some juncture, did you tell police that you had come to this location and felt very strongly about it?

ST. JOHN: No. We had not been taken seriously when we were there.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Vinny Parco, I know people have various ideas about psychics, but I`ve actually seen shows that were reality shows with frustrated investigators on a cold case who have actually in their frustration called in clairvoyants and claimed that they`ve helped in the investigation.

I mean, should have authorities treated her more seriously given the fact that she actually went to the location a month before they -- they were called there?

PARCO: Law enforcement is very cynical about psychics. I have a girl who works for me who that has some psychic ability. When I say ability, I know a lot of police officers that can tell when someone`s carrying a gun without seeing it.

Some people have a certain ability, they have a certain affinity towards certain things in law enforcement.

WEINTRAUB: But it`s not evidence to be used in a court of law.

PARCO: No, it can`t be used in a court of law. And it`s a tool. It`s a tool. Have you ever heard of a psychic winning the lottery? No. I mean, think about it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think I believe it`s psychic --

PARCO: No, I believe in psychics to a little --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I guess what I`m saying is it seems like everybody and his brother found their way to this location at some point along the line. You`re talking about Roy Kronk, the meter reader with the incredible gut, you`re talking about now these private investigators who were there a month before, you`re talking about a psychic who was there in August, you`re talking about friends who said go there -- to the cops -- because that`s where she hung out, which apparently that`s being disputed by the attorney for Casey`s brother right now on this program.

But it seems like, again, it was a convention down there. The only people missing were the cops to find the body.

PARCO: That`s why I think the body was killed somewhere else or -- and decomposed in a different area and the body --


PARCO: And the bones were later placed there. Look at the reasonable doubt you have. Do you think a jury is going to look at this case and really have a -- a real feel for that particular location? No.

It`s so confusing. I think eventually -- and I hope eventually the investigation will show that this body was not killed in that area. It was killed somewhere else. Possibly -- who knows how it was killed. They didn`t --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Vinny, but here`s my point. The skeletonized remains were scattered. They -- they actually cordoned off an area that was the size of an acre. So that`s not a body -- it`s not like one body out of the movies where you pick a body and move it.

WEINTRAUB: No somebody deliberately placed --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s scattered all over in a way that I don`t think somebody -- you`d have to have an archeological team to scatter a body like that and somehow slip in and do that and then --

PARCO: You don`t need an archeological a team. You just need a bunch of people to throw the bones around. This was not done in any kind of orderly fashion. The bones were spread out in an area.


LUKA: And they`re also looking for evidence like footprints or anything that would lead to the actual killer of the body.

PARCO: You`re not going to find footprints over there because you have got too many people walking around.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there was also water so they wouldn`t find --

Let`s go to Diane in Indiana. Your question or thought, ma`am?



DIANE: Hi. I was just wondering the first time the meter reader called in, why the police didn`t insist on him waiting there for them to arrive?

PARCO: That`s a good question.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, that is a good question. And I would go back to Vinny Parco on that one because you`re a private eye. We don`t want to beat up on the police.

Listen, I was a police trainee for one day many years ago and it was part of a reporter assignment and I was told flat out, you will never be a police officer. You broke so many rules and you made so many mistakes. You shot so many imaginary people.

And so from that moment on, I`ve always had tremendous respect for the work that police officers do and how hard it is. Nevertheless, it does seem --

WEINTRAUB: They blew him off; they said we already searched there. We know.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, they said that they had searched there and the cadaver dogs cleared that area.

PARCO: First of all, forget about the police. Let`s talk about cadaver dogs. They are highly trained. This is all they do. And if they were there and they didn`t find the body, then the body wasn`t there. I think the body was placed there afterwards.


WEINTRAUB: I do, too.

LUKA: I agree.

WEINTRAUB: Jane can I say something about this --

PARCO: Everybody agrees. I can`t believe it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t agree. I don`t agree at all.

PARCO: Of course you`re not going to agree.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, I think that this is exactly what -- I`ll tell you what my theory is. This is exactly what happens in these huge cases. I`ve seen it over and over again, whether it`s O.J. Simpson case, the Michael Jackson case, or the Phil Spector case, or any of case these gigantic cases that become a vortex and everybody comes out of the woodwork and everybody has a different story, and it gets so confusing that a dream team of high- powered defense attorneys and experts can turn it into reasonable doubt out of sheer confusion. That`s my opinion.

WEINTRAUB: Where are you going to find a jury that`s going to make that finding, Jane? Not on this planet, not anytime soon, and not in that venue in that small town where the whole world was at that crime scene except of course the defense lawyer.

PARCO: I agree with you.

LUKA: It`s not a small town. We have a million people.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask you --

WEINTRAUB: Not in the area where the meter reader called mentioning the Anthonys by name.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, time-out. I`ve got to ask another question. Tomorrow could be a big ruling. A judge is going to decide whether Casey Anthony has to do a deposition in the civil case that`s been filed by Zenaida Gonzales against her or it can wait until after the criminal trial.

What are your thoughts Jayne on whether or not she should sit down and do this depo?

WEINTRAUB: Well, of course she shouldn`t. She has a Fifth Amendment Right. That doesn`t mean just because she was served, the Fifth Amendment right doesn`t mean that you`re guilty. It means that it has to take priority. That`s number one.

The Fifth Amendment is only to be utilized obviously in a criminal case. It couldn`t be used against her in the criminal case. And obviously that`s on the front burner; the first-degree murder case. As far as the civil case, she has no money or assets. She`s got a public defender. Who cares?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We could talk about this all night. We`ve got to leave it right there. Fantastic panel. And they finally agreed on something.

Just a reminder, Nancy Grace is on immediately following this program at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. She will have all of the fall-out from the legal mess brewing in the Caylee Anthony investigation.

And coming up in just moments: the legal system`s shocking double standard. I will take your calls on whether or not super-scammer Bernie Madoff should be in the slammer.

Call 1-877-JVM-SAYS; that`s 1-877-586-7297 and sound off.

First here`s New York Congressman Gary Ackerman`s refreshingly blunt assessment of the Madoff situation.


REP. GARY ACKERMAN, (D) NEW YORK: I want to know who is responsible for protecting the security investment because I want to tell that person or those people whose job it is that they suck at it.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The battle to get scam artist, Bernie Madoff, behind bars just beginning. I`ll be taking your calls on our legal system`s double standard.

But first, top of the block tonight.

Bombshell developments in a truly terrible crime: on Monday, I told you the shocking story of a four-year-old boy abducted after his mother was shot dead. The boy was later rescued at an Ohio rest stop. And incredibly, his description helped cops arrest Charlie Myers for the murder of his mom.

Today, horrific new details emerging from an extradition hearing for that suspect. According to the prosecutor, Charlie Myers may have sexually assaulted the boy in front of his mother before killing her. Here he is describing this shocking crime.


RON O`BRIEN, FRANKLIN COUNTY PROSECUTOR: He has alleged that at the home prior to the homicide that there was a gross sexual imposition involving the young boy. I understand the mother was tied up and I understand the mother was attempting to rescue the young child from assaultive conduct.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Just indescribably obscene. According to that prosecutor, the mother got loose and stabbed Myers in the back as she tried to help her son. She was then shot in twice in the stomach with a shot gun. Myers faces numerous charges, we hope, including aggravated murder, kidnapping and child molestation charges. Just a really gruesome story.

I`m going to have more details and analysis. We`re going to break that down tomorrow. And try to see how we can prevent that from ever happening again.

Now to the despicable super-scammer Bernie Madoff; just wait until you hear what prosecutors say accused Ponzi schemer did this time. Remember he posted a $10 million bail? Now he gets to cool his heels under house arrest in a swanky New York high rise. You`d think he`d be on best behavior, right? Well, nope.

According to the U.S. attorney, he defied bail terms by sending friends and family a bunch of bling. Check this out: 13 watches, four diamond broaches, a jade necklace, cuff links and other trinkets worth more than $1 million.

What do prosecutors say he was doing? Getting rid of assets. What I don`t get is why the judge in this case doesn`t get it.

Today`s "New York Daily News" editorial page sums it up perfectly: "Burn, Bernie, Burn. The man is a smooth sociopath. He appears determined to go down stealing. Madoff`s mockery of justice must stop. Throw his butt in the can."

I agree entirely. While so many Americans are headed to the poor house, Bernie Madoff is in the penthouse. But he belongs in the big house.

You`ve been telling us how outraged you are about this double standard, so we`re opening the phone lines again tonight. The number to call 1-877-JVM- SAYS; that`s 1-877-586-7297 if you want to cry foul.

Let`s bring in our fantastic panel: Drew Findling, criminal defense attorney and Ronnie Sue and Dominic Ambrosino. They very tragically lost more than $1.5 million to Bernie Madoff. Ronnie Sue and your husband, thank you for joining us tonight.

How angry are you, Ronnie Sue, that this bum isn`t in the clinker? And what would you like to say if you could to the judge who might be listening or watching right now who is deciding as we speak whether to revoke this scumbag`s bail?

RONNIE SUE AMBROSINO, LOST MONEY WITH MADOFF: Hi. Well, I am angry about Bernie, but I really -- I can`t waste my effort on being angry about Bernie. I have to go on and I have to get my money back from the government.

That`s what I`m angry about. It`s indicative the way they`re handling Bernie and letting him stay out of jail, how our -- our rules and our laws are not enforced to protect the citizens. We had an organization, Security Investors Protection Organization, that is here to protect citizens who were defrauded by brokers.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, let me ask you a question. How has this impacted your life? I understand that you invested heavily with him. What do you have left, and how has it impacted you?

R. AMBROSINO: I have zero.



D. AMBROSINO: Zero left; left with nothing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You invested everything with him?


D. AMBROSINO: Everything.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my gosh.

R. AMBROSINO: We sold the house four years ago and put that money into it. Prior to that, we had refinanced the house. Mortgage rates were such that it was conducive to do that. We were getting good returns from Bernie.

D. AMBROSINO: We left money in there, used to refinance.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Where are you living?

R. AMBROSINO: We bought a motor home four years ago. We retired and bought a motor home and have been traveling the country in that motor home.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you could be homeless. I mean, if you can`t make the payments on that motor home, you could be actually out on the street.

D. AMBROSINO: Basically, yes.

R. AMBROSINO: And we can`t make the payments. Our life savings was with him. We have nothing.

D. AMBROSINO: We have no income. Very little.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And how do you feel about the fact that he`s in a luxury penthouse?

R. AMBROSINO: As I said, our efforts since December 11th have been to learn the facts of what`s happening and right now the facts that I know --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ll tell you something, I`m having more outrage. You`re a saint because I`m feeling more -- I`m so -- -- my head`s going to explode. And you have this incredibly serene attitude. I applaud you for it, and you deserve high praise.

But Drew Findling, criminal defense attorney, I am angry. Every cent this guy is spending while he`s out on bail is stolen money if his alleged confession is to be believed. His wife is paying for security guards so that he can stay at home. That`s stolen money. The $10 million bail, stolen money. It`s all stolen.

FINDLING: Well, you bring up a good point. And I want to address it in two parts as far as the double standard.

First, you have to remember, it`s the U.S. attorney`s office that wanted him out. Remember when he couldn`t get you two additional guarantors other than his wife and his brother it was the assistant attorney that wrote the letter to the judge, we want him out. Now why do they want him out? Because remember, it wasn`t the water-downed, anemic, deregulated SEC that broke this case. Bernie`s son --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, yes. I think they got taken again. We`ll be back in a minute with more on this Madoff scandal.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re back, talking about the Madoff scandal. Phone lines lighting up. Randi in Maryland; your question or comment, ma`am.

RANDI, MARYLAND: Jane, I`m with you 100 percent. I`m so angry with this man. Madoff should be paid to -- should be made to pay off every cent, every dime. And I applaud the people who he has scammed because they are under control. I don`t think I could be that controlled. I don`t see where the judge has to think about a decision unless he got a watch too.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Randi, because there`s a double standard -- and I`ll bring this back to Drew Findling -- there`s a double standard in this country. I mean it`s so apparent to me that he has mesmerized the courts. And somehow, because he looks like everybody`s favorite uncle, he gets to go home.

FINDLING: Well, you know, clearly they need him in the beginning because nobody broke this case. He handed them the case so they needed him. But now they don`t need him as much.

And you`ve got to remember when it`s a double standard, as a criminal defense attorney I am offended here because this country, particularly the federal system, is littered with inmates that haven`t made bond because they had to show the legitimacy of their money. For example, was it drug tainted?

Clearly everything in this guy`s life, his pillows, his toothpicks are all illegal. And nobody asked them to justify the $10 million. Now on behalf of all of the criminally accused sitting in jails this country, that`s wrong.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me just say this, his attorney actually argued and said, "Well, you know, it was his wife who sent the holiday gifts." And let`s face it, he`s not a drug dealer. This is a man who`s inspired one person, at least, to commit suicide, the French aristocrat. And now have this woman, Sonya Cohen (ph) who brought in billions from wealthy Russian investors who has apparently gone into hiding. She`s afraid for her life because the Russian mob might be after her. I mean this is financial murder.

You just heard from these two people. These lovely senior citizens who are totally, totally destroyed by this man.

FINDLING: Well, Jane, we shouldn`t be shocked that the jewelry was sent out. Remember, in the criminal complaint, his sons told the FBI he confessed to them. But said, "I`m going to wait a week. And in that week, I`m going spread out $200 million to $300 million to my friends, and relatives and some of my colleagues." So we shouldn`t be surprised that he was trying to dish out jewelry; that kind of goes along with that modus operandi.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But it should be the reason why they throw him back in jail.

You have the last word, ma`am. Go for it, Ronnie Sue, five seconds.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay, Jane. I don`t understand how we can be so liberal in interpreting the laws for Madoff and for the government payment to the victims.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we have to leave it there, thank you. And I wish you the best of luck. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell and you are watching "ISSUES."


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The shocking story of the Ohio mother who died protecting her four-year-old son from sexual assault at the hands of a stranger and the bravery of that same little boy who led police to the suspect. You will not believe the details that are emerging from this horrific case. That`s tomorrow on "ISSUES."

Right now it`s time to check in with Nancy Grace. Nancy, what do you have for us tonight?

NANCY GRACE, HOST, "THE NANCY GRACE SHOW": Jane, tonight, we have just learned as we go to air that second autopsy of little Caylee`s remains is complete. Famed forensic scientist and Anthony defense expert Dr. Henry lee is with us live tonight and he is taking calls.

Also tonight, Jane, a war over the sale of images of little Caylee`s remains; we have the documents. And a source confirms the Anthony`s PI, private eye, find`s Caylee`s remains nearly a month before police.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s a shocker. Thank you, Nancy. We look forward to the very latest. "Nancy Grace" starts right now.