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ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL
New Details in Casey Anthony Case
Aired January 12, 2009 - 19:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, bombshell developments lead to a flurry of damning conclusions against Casey Anthony. Police sources say evidence now shows Casey, acting alone, intentionally killed her daughter.
Plus, more shocking revelations about a meter reader who found Caylee`s remains. Did he take photos? Also, he was once reportedly accused of kidnapping. We`ll tell you why the charges were later dropped and his record expunged. We`ll take your calls.
Plus, a shocking litany of abuse and neglect comes to light as authorities investigate the troubled history of the young man accused of the horrific murder of an Ohio mother and the sexual assault of her 4-year- old boy. Tonight, we ask why was this man walking the streets when he was clearly dangerous to himself and others?
ISSUES starts right now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, unbelievable breaking news. Bombshells in the Caylee Anthony case. For the first time, we get a look at the controversial private investigator video that could impact the murder trial of Casey Anthony.
What you are looking at is video showing George and Cindy Anthony`s private investigator, Dominic Casey, recorded by the other P.I., Jim Hoover, searching an area just feet from where Caylee`s remains were eventually found one month later. You can see Casey with the cell phone to his ear.
The video was released to CNN affiliate WFTV. They have aired it without sound, but report that Dominic Casey is heard saying on the tape, quote, "It would be right here," end quote. What? What would be right there? A body? If so, who is directing him there?
Dominic Casey insists he had no advanced knowledge. We will debate this wild development.
Meantime, a stunning new report reveals police sources now say there is overwhelming evidence that Casey Anthony, acting alone, killed Caylee intentionally. Not by accident. Investigators believe Casey dumped her daughter`s body on June 18.
But here`s the real horror. They believe Caylee had been in the trunk of Casey`s car for two days before the body was dumped.
Also, meter reader Roy Kronk will give his first national sit-down interview since he found little Caylee`s remains last month to "Good Morning America" tomorrow.
And now another stunner. He took a photo and has reportedly licensed it to ABC for an undisclosed amount. Let`s see: is that how a Good Samaritan behaves? We`re going to debate that.
So much to talk about tonight. I want to hear from you. Give me a holler: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297, to weigh in.
Joining me now, my fantastic panel: Kathi Belich, reporter with CNN affiliate WFTV, Orlando; Gail St. John, famed psychic; and host of the forthcoming TV show, "The Body Hunter"; Vinny Parco, private investigator and commentator for TruTV; and Dr. Bill Manion, pathologist and assistant medical examiner for Burlington County, New Jersey. Plus, Judge Jeannine Pirro, former district attorney and host of "The Judge Jeannine Pirro Show."
Kathi Belich, you have listened to the audio on the November 15 video taken at the scene where the remains were later found about a month later. What exactly did you hear?
KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV: The clearest thing I could hear on the tape was private investigator Dominic Casey, who was hired by the Anthony family, saying to the other private eye, who was actually shooting the video, Jim Hoover, he -- Dominic Casey said, "It would be right here."
And what you`re looking at, at that moment, that you hear that is a tight shot of concrete blocks, paver blocks at the scene, just feet, apparently, from where Caylee was later found, just weeks later.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So the implication is, even though he had said previously he was talking to his daughter, that he might be directed to that area by someone on the phone and that someone would presumably know where the body was. Therefore, that someone would somehow, if connected to Casey Anthony, be proving the prosecution`s case. Would that be fair, Kathi?
BELICH: Well, that`s what Jim -- private eye Jim Hoover, who was videotaping that video that you just saw, he says that Dominic Casey told him, "Caylee is dead, and I know where she is." And that`s why they went there.
And then when you hear him say, "It would be right here," you know, you have to interpret it, I guess, however you interpret it. But Hoover says that`s why they were there.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Here`s a fascinating angle. You know there are many, many reports coming out of many different stations. There`s a report from WESH-2 news that says that the Anthony family`s private investigator told authorities he was talking on the phone with a psychic as he searched woods in November. In other words, he`s, according to this report, not talking to his daughter. He`s talking to a psychic that is, apparently, leading him to this area.
Now, we have a psychic with us tonight, Gail St. John, psychic detective and host of "The Body Hunter."
Gail, is that how psychics work? Do they talk on the phone to somebody and say, "OK, make a left. Turn here. Take a look at the tree. Go down the hill. There`s the concrete blocks. That`s where you`re going to find the body"?
GAIL ST. JOHN, PSYCHIC DETECTIVE: Well, I mean, it`s possible. It could be that way. I mean, I have worked with law enforcement in the past and, you know, while they were out in the field, you know, and describing stuff to them so they could find the body. So, you know, I mean, it`s extremely possible.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, what do you make of the fact that he`s now saying he`s talking to a psychic, according to this one news report?
ST. JOHN: Well, you know, I mean, I wasn`t there. So I don`t know who he was really talking to. I mean, like I said, there again, it could be possible that he really was. Or he was not.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you got competition, then. Because you actually said that you went down there in the summer and, apparently, he`s talking to another psychic who has led him there, if he can be believed.
All right. Judge Jeannine Pirro, you`re a former D.A. I want to bring your perspective into all of this. Because this is -- it`s such a wild story. And the twists and turns every five seconds, it`s almost entering the realm of surrealism at this point.
Let`s bring us down to earth. How do you analyze this situation?
JEANNINE PIRRO, HOST, "THE JUDGE JEANNINE PIRRO SHOW": All right. Well, first of all, it sounds like complete and utter hogwash to me that someone who`s a private investigator says he`s on the phone with a psychic who`s telling him where to move. And then he says he`s talking to a sick daughter. But here`s the bottom line.
The feds will find out who he was talking to and, if he lied to the feds and said he was talking to his daughter or he was talking to a psychic, then you`ve got him automatically on a crime of lying to a federal officer.
But here`s what makes more sense. You`ve got a private investigator, hired by the defendant`s mother and father, who is in the vicinity, within feet of where the body was subsequently found, stabbing garbage bags. And we know that the skull was found in the garbage bag. That is tampering with evidence, that is, possibly, criminal facilitation after the fact; it`s conspiracy.
Here is a guy who was dead to right, without a doubt, either going to be indicted for information that he had, or he`s going to turn evidence against the Anthonys. There is no confidentiality here. There is no privilege here. This is too close for comfort. And that`s why law enforcement is saying that they now can prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt of intentional murder. It all makes sense, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. So you`re linking these -- yes, you`re linking those two. That`s fascinating.
Now, let`s look at private eye Dominic Casey in the woods, adjacent to where Caylee Anthony`s remains were found on December 11. We see him with some sort of stick prodding and poking the ground. At times, he seems to spot something and dig with the same stick.
As you can see from the date stamp on this video, this was shot November 15, almost a month before Caylee`s body was found by the investigators.
Now, my investigation question to Vinny Parco, who was a private eye, could he be destroying evidence, albeit accidentally? You know, we have to give him the benefit of the doubt at this point. Is this how private investigators behave?
VINNY PARCO, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR, COMMENTATOR FOR TRUTV: No. First of all, if you notice, he didn`t -- he didn`t secure the crime scene area, number one.
No. 2, he should have had the other investigator videotape closer to what -- to the information that he was picking up. For example, he opened a couple of bags. First of all, he didn`t have any gloves on. So if there were any fingerprints on the bag, he would -- he would corrupt that evidence.
He cut the bag open with a knife. He should have opened it up with his hand and looked inside and had it videotaped so, if there was something of value in there, it wouldn`t have destroyed the evidence.
It was totally -- I really don`t think that this was done in a professional manner. I think it was done to sort of, again, reasonable doubt. Try to -- try to get the onus away from that particular area.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Bill Manion, you`re a forensic pathologist. You`ve just seen the video of this guy. He`s going through there and just poking and slashing his way. Somebody said it was almost animalistic the way he was going through and digging everything up.
Can you give us a sense of what could have been destroyed in that process?
DR. BILL MANION, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes. I mean, that`s very upsetting, because whenever you see a crime scene established, right away you see the tape go up around the scene, and everyone is very, very careful walking around the crime scene. Everyone has to wear gloves. Everyone has to wear coveralls, because the person themselves carrying the most contamination. Your footprints can contaminate the area. There may be -- there may be footprints that are viable that can be found there.
And of course, sticking a wooden stick into a bag with bones and stuff, you may fracture some of the bones. These would be, hopefully, port-mortem fractures that a forensic pathologist and an anthropologist could realize -- recognize, that these were postmortem fractures.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. So it`s a bad thing.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, let me just ask you, Judge Jeannine, if, in fact, the police trace these cell-phone calls, and it somehow winds back to Casey, some way, shape or form, daisy chain back to Casey, is that game, set, match? I mean, is that proof that, hey, the only way she could have directed him there is if she knew?
PIRRO: Without a doubt. Without a doubt, Jane. You see, this is really, as far as I`m concerned, the mother load, because it is an agent of the defense, who is finding and locating the -- in the area exactly where the body was subsequently found, on the phone, frantically going through bags, contaminating evidence.
And, you know, Vinny, I agree with you. Anyone professionally would have done this in a totally different way. It indicates that the intent was not to, you know, recoup or recover a body but, rather, to contaminate and possibly take away information.
And if he lied about who he was talking to, and make no mistake, law enforcement will found out like this, and I`m sure they already know who he was talking to. And then it`s -- it`s exactly as you say. It is over for Casey Anthony.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Game, set, match. We`ll see, though. The chess game is still going on.
OK, guys. Stay right there. Don`t forget: Nancy Grace, up at 8 p.m. immediately following this program. She will also have the very latest on the Caylee Anthony murder investigation. You don`t want to miss it.
And of course, we will have much more analysis of the Caylee Anthony case on the way. Give me a holler: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297. And tell me if you think private eye Dominic Casey has inside information about the location of Caylee`s remains.
Here`s Casey Anthony in jail, back in July, talking about her love for Caylee. In light of the latest reporting, this is chilling stuff. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF MURDERING DAUGHTER: We miss her; we love her. I miss her. I love her dearly, and I want nothing more than for her to come home, to be safe. And to be where she belongs, with her family.
It`s obvious that we will stop at nothing to get her back. Because I know in my heart, I know in my gut, I know with every ounce of my being that we will be with her again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE STAN STRICKLAND, ORANGE COUNTY CIRCUIT: Raise your right hand for me, if you would. I need to swear you in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s Casey Anthony, hauled into court last Thursday by order of Judge Stan Strickland, struggling to raise her cuffed right hand as she`s sworn in.
I want to hear what you think about the latest developments in the Caylee Anthony murder case. Give me a holler: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1- 877-586-7297. Let`s go straight to the phones.
Alice in Wisconsin, your question or thought, ma`am.
CALLER: I was wondering if she received state aid being that she never worked or anything. And if so, did she collect it for the months that she hadn`t reported Caylee missing?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s a fascinating question, Kathi Belich. Because we know that she lied about having a job. And who knows where she was? There was many, many different reports.
BELICH: I was having trouble understanding that question.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did she get any kind of aid, like when you`re not working and you get unemployment benefits or welfare or something to that effect?
BELICH: Not that we`re aware of, but we do know she`s been accused of stealing a lot of money from her family and from friends of hers. So maybe that`s how she got money.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right. In fact, those were some of the first charges she faced before the murder charge came down.
Dawn, Washington, thought or question.
CALLER: Hi, Jane. How are you?
CALLER: Yes. I was wondering if Casey Anthony was the one that called that investigator, would the jail have that on record?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Good question. Vinny Parco, if Casey were the one who called, let`s say from the pay phone down the hall that we all see in the movie, they obviously would know that, right?
PARCO: Yes. I would -- all those calls are taped. I would assume that if the call came from anyone, it was her attorney.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And again, we can`t -- we could speculate, but we don`t know for sure.
PARCO: That`s why I said. Certainly assume.
BELICH: Her attorney says he did not call. Her attorney says he was not the one on the phone.
PARCO: Any phone calls from a jail are all monitored. Every call.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we`ve seen all of her conversations with her family played on television.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So certainly, I would think they would have those phone calls.
You know, it`s so fascinating to me. Why don`t police just come out and say, Kathi Belich, who he was on the phone with? I mean, sometimes there`s so much confusion and chaos generated by a circus like this about this one particular issue, you`d almost think it would be in interests of authorities to just say, "Hey, you know, we`ve done the search. Here are the cell phone records. Who is he talking to?"
BELICH: I don`t know. You know, I don`t know if they have the cell- phone records already at this point. Obviously, that`s the first thing they would be looking for: checking the time-date stamp on the videotape to make sure that was accurate. Those are all things, of course, they would be doing.
They don`t always, you know, come right out and tell everybody what they`ve found. I think they have to talk to a lot of witnesses at this point, and they`re still working on a murder case here, as well. So...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: By the way, here`s Dominic Casey, explaining what he would have done, had he found little Caylee`s remains when he searched that site back in November.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOMINIC CASEY, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Had I had the misfortune to stumble across any remains, the first thing I would have done would have been -- I would have prayed. The second thing I would have done, I would have stayed right at the location and called 911.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Now we`re hearing from one account that he says, Judge Jeannine, that he was talking to his ill daughter. And then we also hear a report from another local station that he says he was talking to a psychic.
Why don`t authorities -- they have leaked so much. We`ve gotten so much, and we`re going to cover it. The fact that they`re believing now that Casey killed Caylee intentionally and had the body in the trunk for two days.
If they want to settle this once and for all, since it`s obsessing everybody, why not just release or leak who he was on the phone with?
PIRRO: Because, Jane, it`s not in the best interest of law enforcement to resolve the obsession that the media has. They`re playing it close to the vest. They have done this from the beginning of this case.
What is happening is they -- they already know who the call was made to and who he was talking to. Make no mistake about that. As sure as I`m sitting here, they know that.
But what`s happening, Jane, if you watch the genesis of this whole investigation, they have known long in advance -- and people have started to lock themselves and back into situations that are perjurous [SIC], that are possibly indictable. And so law enforcement sits back. There`s no obligation to identify the evidence until they go to trial.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. But let`s -- can I jump in and ask you a question? Judge, why, then, are we getting all these leaks about the forensics? We`re being leaked reports that they now know the time frame, very specifically, of when little Caylee`s body was dumped at that location, being June 18. That was two days after they believe that Casey Anthony killed her intentionally.
We`re getting all sorts of detailed forensic information leaked by the authorities. Why are they doing that? To send a message to a potential jury pool?
PIRRO: Well, you know what? I know where you`re going, Jane, and what you`re saying is that this can contaminate and pollute a potential jury pool, and you`re absolutely right. As this stuff gets leaked, it`s not good for the defendant.
But you know what? When you have scientific records, they go back and forth. You`ve got all kinds of people involved. Scientists involved. I mean, I`m not going to blame anybody. But what I`m saying is, law enforcement does not have an obligation to show all their cards.
They may be continuously investigating this guy, Dominic Casey. That`s why they`re not going to let him know what they know, because it`s in their interest. They need him to testify if he`s got information. And the way to do it is to squeeze him by getting enough evidence to file charges against him. And I don`t think there`s any question that`s what`s happening.
Remember, they knew long in advance that there were Internet searches for neck-breaking and chloroform before we knew anything about it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right. We`ve got to leave it right there for now. But we`re going to continue this. We have more bombshell developments to sort through.
One of the strangest aspects of this case, meter reader Roy Kronk. Do you think Kronk will try to sell any photos he may have taken of the site where Caylee`s remains were found? Call 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586- 7297. Let me know.
First, let`s listen to Kronk`s August 911 call leading police to the very same area where Caylee`s remains were found.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROY KRONK, METER READER: There`s a swamp. And if you`re heading back out towards the main road on the left-hand side, in a area, I noticed something that looked white and there was -- I don`t know what it is. I`m not telling you it`s Caylee or anything of that nature.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF KEVIN BEARY: I think there`s been an open wound in the community. And I believe we can start putting some closure to those open wounds. And having a kid at -- you know, I`ve raised two girls. Goodness gracious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is an emotional Sheriff Beary on December 19, the day that the remains found in the woods near the Anthony home were identified as little Caylee Anthony.
We`re back talking about the continuing twists and turns in this sad case. Phone lines are lighting up. Let`s go straight to Gonzalla from West Virginia. Question or thought.
Hey, Gonzalla, you there?
CALLER: Yes, I`m here.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, your question or thought, sir?
CALLER: OK, I`ve got a question. My question is about Dominic Casey, the private investigator.
CALLER: OK. I`m wondering whether or not he can be charged with obstruction of justice, because it`s obvious that he had inside information about the location of the little girl.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Very good question. And go ahead.
PARCO: I think so. I think definitely.
PARCO: And they`re going to use that as pressure. I think Jeanne [SIC] will agree with me that the prosecutors will use that as pressure to get him to turn on whoever was talking to him on the phone.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but what about the whole idea that he was at one time working for the defense team, not just the Anthony family and that, therefore, he is protected because he is really basically investigating the defense case, and they`re going to uncover things as a part of their investigation?
PARCO: All smoke and mirrors, this whole case.
PIRRO: Listen, though. The issue, Jane, is very simple. Whether he`s working under the guise of privilege through the attorney, if he is tampering evidence or obstruction of justice, he gets charged. There`s no protection.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ve got to talk about so many things. Let`s talk about Roy Kronk. This is another crazy aspect of this case.
Now, there is concern or question about whether he`s profiting off this case. He`s scheduled to come up to New York City and appear on "Good Morning America," and ABC has that they paid for travel expenses and to license a photo, amount not disclosed.
Now, here`s what his attorney said. Quote, "For all the money he saved taxpayers, he deserves some measure of substantial compensation. You know, Vinny Parco, is that how good Samaritans are supposed to work? Isn`t that what reward money is for?
PARCO: That`s what a reward is. That`s what he`s getting, a reward. Maybe he was a Good Samaritan at the time, but some people -- maybe his attorney, maybe his friends and family said, "Hey, you can make money on this. You`ve got a photograph. Why not?"
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Kathi Belich, he also has a back story that`s pretty fascinating. An accusation of kidnapping that was later dropped, and that whole thing was exonerated and expunged. But tell us about it.
BELICH: That`s right. Back in the 1990s, apparently, he was stationed with the Coast Guard in Key West, and he went to South Carolina to help a girlfriend or ex-girlfriend of his -- ex-girlfriend, I believe, move.
When he got there, I guess her new guy accused him of kidnapping her, and then it turned into a criminal investigation. Took it to a grand jury, from what I understand. Was not indicted, and then his record was expunged. And from what I understand, the local investigators are not really concerned about that. He was very up front about that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And one other fascinating aspect. Before he became a meter reader, anybody want to guess what he was before he became a meter reader?
PARCO: A P.I.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: He was a bounty hunter.
PARCO: A bounty hunter, oh.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. You can`t make this stuff up.
PIRRO: No, you can`t.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ve got more calls coming. Please give us a call: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297. Sound off on the shocking developments in the Caylee Anthony case.
Plus, Charlie Myers is suspected of killing a woman and molesting her son. You won`t believe the shocking details emerging in that case.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Shocking developments in the Caylee Anthony case. As investigative sources now say Casey did it alone and intentionally. That as stunning new video emerges of the crime scene, taped a month before Caylee`s body was found.
And bombshell developments involving the meter reader who`s going to New York to tell his story; a stunner emerges from his past.
What do you think of these new developments? Give us a call.
Stunning new video and forensics in the Casey Anthony case.
Back with my fantastic panel: Kathi Belich, reporter with CNN affiliate WFTV Orlando; Gale St. John, famed psychic and host of the forthcoming TV show "The Body Hunter; Vinny Parco, private investigator and commentator for TRUTV; Dr. Bill Manion, pathologist and assistant medical examiner for Burlington County, New Jersey; plus Judge Jeanine Pirro, former DA and host of the "Judge Jeanine Pirro Show."
The phone lines once again, very hot. Emily, Ohio, your question or comment, ma`am.
EMILY FROM OHIO: Hi. Yes, I have two questions. First of all, who has control over Caylee`s remains? I heard it was Baez. And why is there not more public outcry about why this little baby hasn`t had a funeral and still just sitting in a box?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Excellent comments and question, Kathi Belich, give us the update.
KATHI BELICH, WFTV ORLANDO REPORTER: I believe her mother has the control over her remains even though she is in jail. And I believe her attorney Jose Baez is doing -- is carrying out her wishes.
There is a lot of outrage over why there`s not been a funeral. I`ve personally gotten dozens of emails about that. But I think we heard recently that the defense believes they still have some work to do on that second autopsy. More tests that they want to perform on the remains. And until they`re done, they`re not going to release them for that reason.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But you`d think that they`d have at least one of the public memorials. They said they were going to have a public memorial. I mean, a long time has passed now. And this girl still has not been publicly honored.
BELICH: That`s true.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, it`s strange.
BELICH: That`s true.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Once again, let`s look at the stunning video of private eye, Dominic Casey; this time in the yard of an abandoned house, close to where Caylee Anthony`s remains were found.
Now, there you go. We see him opening up trash bags, sifting, poking, slashing, seeming to search for something. And again, many conflicting stories emerging. Some wondering was he getting a tip-off from somebody about where Caylee`s remains were because they were ultimately found a month later in the same exact vicinity.
But he has been quoted as saying that when he`s on the cell phone at this location, he was talking to his daughter and then another report says, no, he was talking to a psychic.
So a lot of controversy about that tonight and some stunning information, Dr. Bill Manion, a forensic pathologist, about the time frame of death.
The reason why that`s crucial is that the forensic analysts working for the prosecution, we`re talking botanists and etymologists, analyzed insects, foliage grass growing through the remains to determine that the child had died in June and had been dumped there on June 18th.
Now, how do you use insects and grass to make that kind of determination?
BILL MANION, M.D. PH.D. FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, with respect to insects, there is an evolution of insect species that overcome a body. First, blow flies will lay their eggs. You`ll see maggots form and they`ll age over several weeks.
Then other invertebrate insects, arthropods, spiders, beetles will also begin to inhabit the body, lay their eggs. And so over time, you can see this progression of insect species in the remains.
With respect to plant botanists, they may be looking at different plant species that are growing around the remains. They may also wash the nasal sinuses like in the skull. Sometimes you can wash the nasal sinuses and find pollen or diatoms pollen.
And that`ll help you see what time of the year this person was breathing and had that particular pollen in their nose.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What doesn`t make sense to me though doctor that this area was underwater for quite a -- quite a while, for months. Apparently, let`s look at the footage from famed psychic Gale St. John. She is with us tonight.
This is Gale close to the site where Caylee`s body was found. This footage was taken in August. Now, let`s listen.
All right. Ok. Well, I got to tell you that essentially we can talk to Gale right now about what she said. Excuse me, I`m sorry, somebody is talking to me. You`ve got it. Ok, let`s play it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Skull of hair and the fences.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This was searched by cadaver dogs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can only go so far and this is water. You know what I mean?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Gale St. John, there you were out in the field. You said you were drawn to this very area. When and why?
GALE ST. JOHN, PSYCHIC DETECTIVE: Well, I`d done a blind drive -- what we call a blind drive on August 11th. And that`s the video that you`re seeing. And you know, it`s something that we do in most cases. And when I was drawn there, I felt strongly the feelings that I get when there is a body there.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Which are?
ST. JOHN: Well, you feel like you`re getting punched in the stomach, kind of like lose your breath. It`s a very strange feeling that you will never forget.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, was the area underwater? Because we just heard Dr. Manion explain, well, these insects and they go through all this evolution. But that`s not happening I don`t think if the entire area is submerged.
MANION: That`s right. That will delay everything. If it`s submerged, the decomposition will continue, but there will be some delay with the different insects coming in. You`re right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I mean, that`s -- Kathi Belich, I want to go to you on this. How are people talking about all of these detailed forensics when we`ve been hearing, from Tim Miller from Equi Search, hey, we couldn`t even get in there to search because it was all covered in water. That`s why we didn`t find the body because the body was underwater.
I mean, now we`re hearing oh, well, all of these insects were able to grow and this grass was able to grow and that`s how they`re determining cause of death.
BELICH: The best that I could tell you about that is I`m not sure that that information that has gotten out is entirely accurate. And that might be why you`re having a hard time trying to reconcile it with reality.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. In other words, you`re saying that the reports that they have, the authorities have narrowed the time of death and that the botanists and the etymologists have analyzed the terrain and come up with these determinations. That there is controversy about whether or not the police source has actually said that?
MANION: I think you could give an approximation, but you`re not going to be able to say June 18th the body was there, I think that`s very, very dangerous to that. I think they can give an estimation that the body was there in the spring, it was there in the summer, it was there in the fall, based on different plant species or pollens that`s there.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Wandy in Georgia, your thought or question, ma`am.
WANDY IN GEORGIA: Yes, my question is if the Anthony`s given immunity, is there a possibility that perhaps one of them may say that they actually committed the crime? Excuse me. And that Casey will be free?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. You`re going to have to say that one more time. Speak really, really clearly, ma`am.
WANDY: I`m sorry. I said if any of the Anthony`s are given immunity, could one of them say they committed the crime and actually get Casey off?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, wow. Oh, my Gosh. Yes. You should have been a crime writer, my dear.
Judge Jeanine Pirro, they love their daughter. They said they`ve done anything for her. Is it within the realm of possibility that somebody would falsely confess to get somebody else off that they love?
JEANINE PIRRO, "JUDGE JEANINE PIRRO": Look, your caller has asked a very good question. And it`s what happens that prosecutors like myself and you run an office, you make sure that you don`t put someone in the grand jury who`s going to get immunity who can then turn around and confess to the crime.
There is no question that if they got immunity they were given -- they gave statements before that were under oath, of their version of the facts. And therefore, they could be charged with perjury, which would be the least of it.
But the evidence is circumstantial. It is so great at the end of the day. You could shoot down any confession by any family member. Given the fact that it was Casey led the car, Casey who had the baby, Casey who doesn`t really care that the baby is lost who borrows the shovel, who backs into the garage. I mean, everything points to Casey here.
So it would make for a good novel, but at the end of the day it`s not going to fly here.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I almost heard a closing argument there, Judge. Ok. Kathi, Gale, Vinny, Bill, Judge Jeanine, thank you so very much.
Just a reminder, Nancy Grace will have all the latest twists in the Caylee Anthony murder investigation, including much more on this new video of private eye, Dominic Casey. She is up immediately following this program at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. Don`t miss it.
Charlie Myers, suspected of killing a woman after molesting her 4- year-old son. I`ll tell you why new details suggest he shouldn`t have been a free man on the day of the crime. And that`s the understatement of the year.
I`ll be taking your calls. Dial 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586- 7297 to talk to my expert panel about this gruesome case.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Shocking details emerging about Charlie Myers, he is the man charged with killing an Ohio woman and molesting her 4-year-old son. His criminal past has everybody wondering why this very dangerous man was free to walk the streets.
But first, "Top of the Block" tonight: more Madoff outrage. Alleged Wall Street con artist and slime ball Bernie Madoff will not be going to jail anytime soon. A judge today said no to prosecutors who wanted to revoke bail for the man accused of stealing $50 billion. The name of that judge, by the way Ronald Ellis; write it down, Ronald Ellis.
While on bail, Madoff allegedly tried to send $1 million worth of jewelry to friends and family. Previously he allegedly had $173 million worth of signed checks in his office ready to be delivered to special friends. The Christmas Eve mailers of jewelry were in violation of Madoff`s original house arrest terms.
So what did the judge order: stricter house arrest. Now, Madoff has been given a home work assignment, he must compile an inventory of all of the items in his home because he was so good and accurately reporting assets and never hid anything.
Bernie Madoff could face 20 years in prison. For now, though, he`ll have to settle for living in his $7 million penthouse. I`ll be sure to update you with any more infuriating details. I know the people who lost their life savings are pulling out their hair tonight over that ruling.
From outrage over Bernie Madoff to bombshell revelations about a man who never should have been free to roam the streets at all; now the shocking past of Charlie Myers. He is accused of murdering that Ohio mom and sexually assaulting her 4-year-old son while she was tied up just a few feet away.
Myers has a history that includes being abused as a child himself, attempted suicide, and a bizarre tryst with a cross-dresser. Court documents show Myers spent most of his childhood in 20 different foster homes; 20. That he started smoking pot at age seven, drinking alcohol at age eight. At ten he was diagnosed with mild retardation and a severe hearing disability. He tried to kill himself at 11. He would then go on to steal cars. In 2004, burglarized a neighbor`s home and set fire to the house, burned it down.
These the judge`s words at his sentencing -- quote, "Charlie, what this court wants to do is make sure that you are protected and that other people are protected. I don`t want you to hurt anyone else, and I don`t want you to hurt yourself," end quote. Yet despite her cautionary words, Charlie Myers was not protected. And he did become an extraordinarily dangerous man; one with the mind of a child who fell through the cracks.
The lines are open. Give me a holler -- 1-877-JVM-SAYS; that`s 1-877- 586-7297.
Now, let`s go straight to my panel -- by the way, we`re not mentioning the names of the victims to give them privacy -- Dr. Brian Russell, forensic psychologist and attorney; Atlanta criminal defense attorney, Drew Findling; and Denise Alex, anchor and reporter with Ohio News Network.
Denise, you`re covering this case. What is the very latest?
DENISE ALEX, ANCHOR AND REPORTER, OHIO NEWS NETWORK: You know, I guess, a lot of people are waiting to hear what`s going to come out of this hearing on Friday. It`s set for 4:00 in a Dayton courtroom. We`re waiting to see if they`re going to look into the death penalty. That`s one option that prosecutors are weighing right now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, I`ve got to say, Dr. Russell, the insanity defense comes up in my mind when I heard that litany, that litany of trouble and abuse and self-medication and attempted suicide. Could you argue this guy doesn`t know right from wrong?
BRIAN RUSSELL, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: No. And here`s why. Did his horrendous upbringing -- is it heart-breaking? Yes. Did it probably make him a sociopath? Yes. But did it prevent him from knowing right from wrong? Absolutely not. And when you have somebody who`s --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Why not?
RUSSELL: Because when you are a sociopath, you place your needs, your wants above those of everyone else and you do it consciously and you can see that in this case. There was lots of planning. He found the car that he stole. In that car he found the way to get to their home.
And he went to their home and he forced his way in and he took what he wanted. All of that is purposeful, planful activity.
I got to tell you, Jane, when you have somebody who is an adolescent, late adolescent or adult who is a sociopath, you`ll never talk them out of it. The only way you`ll get them to conform their behavior to the law is to punish them severely enough that they start to see it in their own best interest to follow the law. And I think it`s probably too late for this guy.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and you know, I absolutely agree with you, but I think society has to come up with another solution beyond punishing the person who commits this horrific crime.
Clearly, Drew Findling, this was a failure of the foster care system. He experienced years of physical abuse. His mother died of a drug-induced heart attack when he was a toddler. He lived with an abusive father. He was then placed in foster care and switched 20 times. And he likely had fetal alcohol syndrome, not to mention being deaf and having the academic functioning of an elementary school child.
I`m not condoning what this guy did. I want him to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. But we as a society, if we took some of the money we spend prosecuting all these cases and throwing these people in jail and all the money we spend on the criminal justice system, and if we just took some of that and put it into the foster care system so that a child with this history doesn`t go to 20 different foster homes, we could save lives on top of saving money.
DREW FINDLING, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jane, you just gave a phenomenal closing argument at the penalty phase if there were a death penalty case on why with the mitigation that you just presented this would not be a death penalty case. When he`s assigned counsel, what they`re going to have to do is present that very same argument you`ve made to the prosecutor so they don`t pursue the death penalty and hopefully they won`t have to make that argument because hopefully the prosecutors in this case in the privacy of their own conference rooms will talk about that and decide this isn`t a case to pursue the death penalty.
But rather because of the way that foster children are treated and the way we really can`t reach out to troubled teens and youth like this young man, they shouldn`t waste the taxpayers` dollar, but rather take that same money to pursue the death penalty and figure how to treat people like him throughout the state of Ohio.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Denise Alex, you`re in the area. What is the court of public opinion saying about the death penalty?
ALEX: I think a lot of people here in Ohio want to see it imposed in this case. But then again on the other side, a lot of people feel bad for Charlie Myers. He had no chance growing up. His mom died of a drug related heart attack. His father abused him.
A lot of people are thinking that maybe it wasn`t the fault of the foster care system -- yes, he was in and out of 20 foster homes -- but it started when from mother`s womb. He really didn`t have a chance from day one right there. So, it`s kind of mixed right now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So do you think, Drew Findling, that`s going to result in a change of venue in this case?
ALEX: You know, it possibly could and I think a lot of people are thinking that may happen because there has been so much media publicity. Every day this has been in the newspapers and on TV but then there are some people in rural areas who may not have a clue. So it`s kind of up in the air. We might know more a little on, later on this week.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What do you think, Drew?
FINDLING: Well, a change of venue is a very difficult argument to make. And also when you`re defending the case, you want to make sure. You don`t want to wind up in a place that you`ll be worse off. So you`re really going to have to look at the community, and see not only is the community outraged by the crime, but is the community also outraged by the treatment of young men, such as this young man?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Stay right there. I`m going to be taking calls on this horrific crime.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE MYERS, MURDER SUSPECT: I just want to say sorry for the crime but this is the first time that I`ve ever had in my whole life. I`m 22 years old. And I`ve never had a gun in my whole life. I made mistakes and I apologize to the family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s accused killer, Charlie Myers, apologizing in what would seem like a confession. Back with our fantastic panel and the phone lines are lighting up.
Jenny, Ohio; question or thought, ma`am?
JENNY, CALLER FROM OHIO: Yes, I actually have a question. Since they`re stating he`s been a sick boy all of his life, is this going to be an insanity case? And if so, does this still make him eligible for the death penalty?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, well, we kind of covered some of that ground but I think what`s really fascinating is how this so-called confession is going to play into this case. You just heard it. He`s apologizing.
Brian Russell, is that a confession, and how does that impact the case?
RUSSELL: Yes, I believe it is. And I think the issue is he competent to make the confession and I think he probably is. It`s not an insanity case. He may not be death penalty eligible though because of his intellectual functioning. They`ll have to test him. And as the Supreme Court said you can`t execute somebody who falls in the clinically mentally retarded range and we`ll have to see if he does.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, he hasn`t issued a plea yet.
Drew Findling, do you think that he`s going to plead guilty or not guilty? Because how many times have we seen guys confess and then plead not guilty?
FINDLING: Well, you have to understand, whether you hear them say they`re not is not going to affect the decision. I think if it`s a death penalty case his lawyers will have to consider whether or not to just enter the plea of guilty and focus all of their effort on the sentencing and that is talk and mitigation about his problems growing up.
I will say this, I do not think that you can just right now, you know, minutes after this case, start eliminate that somebody may bring up the insanity defense because we really do not know the statements that are attributed to him, other than the one he makes there. We don`t know where they come from. We don`t know if he plotted and planned this. We don`t know if one of his two roommates were part of this as well.
So we don`t know that. We don`t know if he was manipulated by other people. We just don`t have no knowledge yet. I think it`s a little hasty to eliminate an entire defense right now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Brian Russell, we only have a few seconds. Is that so-called confession admissible? Can it be played at trial?
RUSSELL: It depends on if he`s been read his rights and he had his due process before he made it. And if he has, then, yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And of course we cannot forget, Denise Alex -- ten seconds -- this hero child. What an amazing young boy who, not only went through this ordeal, but on top of that had the wits about him to tell authorities, his home address, two phone numbers and describe the suspect which led in part to this man`s address.
Dennis, Brian, Drew, thank you for your insights. I`m Jane Velez- Mitchell and you`re watching "ISSUES" on HLN.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: As tragic as his life circumstances may have been, there is simply no excusing the crimes Charlie Myers is alleged to have committed. Will prosecutors feel the same way or will sympathy play a role in seeking punishment for this confessed murder and alleged child molester? There is a hearing in the case this week and I will have the details on "ISSUES."
Right now it`s time to check in with Nancy Grace. Hey, Nancy?
NANCY GRACE, HLN ANCHOR, "NANCY GRACE SHOW": Jane, secret video of the Anthony`s private investigator searching the same heavily wooded area where little Caylee`s remains were discovered weeks before police discover her tiny skeleton. Jane, we have the video.
And, Jane, tonight we go live to southwest Florida in the search for a 6-year-old little boy who vanishes into thin air.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nancy thanks. Look forward to it.
"Nancy Grace" starts right now.