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ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL
New Details Revealed in Anthony Case; Octuplets Born in California
Aired January 29, 2009 - 19:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, on the eve of a key hearing, startling, intimate secrets of Casey Anthony`s family, revealed by "People" magazine. Internal battles, a separation and e-mail wars as Cindy`s own brother fumes Casey is playing her parents like a fiddle.
The new shocking article claims Casey`s own parents may finally be doubting their daughter`s innocence.
We`ll take your calls as Casey`s attorneys prepare to demand proof that Casey`s former fiance is not little Caylee`s biological father.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m glad my dad is going to prison for the rest of his life.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: These two daughters survived the unimaginable, raised by a man known as the Monster of Missouri. Those daughters are speaking to us tonight live about their father, who is now charged with viciously raping another daughter, fathering four children with her, and killing at least one of the offspring. These courageous young women tell me their story of survival with a monster dad.
And Bernie Madoff gets a case of the boohoos. That`s right. The man accused of being a $50 billion scammer, the very man who has somehow dodged jail so far, is reportedly complaining about his current holding area, his own multimillion-dollar Manhattan penthouse. You won`t believe what else Bernie is whining about now.
ISSUES starts now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Explosive new developments tonight in the Caylee Anthony murder case. A picture is now emerging of how prosecutors plan to argue how, when and why Casey murdered her little girl. The pieces of the puzzle coming together. A Winnie the Pooh blanket and a toy horse. The duct tape used to seal Caylee`s mouth. It`s all evidence that could seal Casey`s fate.
Shocking details in the new issue of "People" magazine which hits the newsstands tomorrow. The cover story also paints the Anthonys as a seriously dysfunctional family long before the tragic murder of little Caylee. Cindy and Casey reportedly bitter rivals. George and Cindy once on the brink of divorce.
And after Caylee`s disappearance, Cindy Anthony`s own brother, Casey`s uncle, fuming that his sister was in total denial about Casey`s involvement. In an e-mail sent about a month after Caylee was reported missing, Casey`s Uncle Rick writes to his sister Cindy, quote, "You need help! You are delirious. I was trying to help you. Your granddaughter is dead. There, I said it. Casey has killed her some way, either by accident or on purpose," end quote.
And tonight, we learn that a judge has once again ordered Casey Anthony to be present for all pretrial hearings. Her next appearance in court set for tomorrow at 8:30 a.m. Eastern.
Whoa. A whole lot to talk about. Give me a call: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297.
But first I want to bring in my expert panel: Jayne Weintraub, feisty criminal defense attorney; Drew Findling, Atlanta criminal defense attorney; Bill Manion, pathologist and assistant medical examiner for Burlington County, New Jersey; Dr. Gail Saltz, psychiatrist. And boy, do we need one tonight. And Rozzie Franco, reporter for WFLA 540 AM.
Rozzie, what is the very latest?
ROZZIE FRANCO, WFLA: Well, you just mentioned it. Judge Sam Strickland ordered today that Casey must be present at all the hearings.
Now, tomorrow we`re going to learn three things. We`re going to learn the trial date. We`re going to learn if -- if attorney Jose Baez and his defense team are going to have access to the crime scene, or rather where Caylee`s remains were found. And also if he`s going to be able to access discovery. Fingerprint evidence, DNA and so forth, of Jesse Grund.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow, it`s going to be a big hearing tomorrow. And once again, as you mentioned, Casey has to show up. Judge`s orders. And what`s really fascinating is that we can kind of see the pieces of the puzzle coming together here in terms of what the prosecution when this trial does start could argue in terms of motive. And it could boil down to really a battle of wills between a mother and a daughter.
"People" magazine puts a glaring spotlight on Cindy Anthony and makes her out to be controlling and manipulative. Here`s a quote: "Though almost everyone agrees that Cindy was an exceedingly devoted grandmother, she and Casey had intense rivalry. In the hospital after the delivery it was Cindy who held the baby first, which remained a source of friction. That pattern was to be repeated again and again."
In fact, Jesse Grund says Cindy used to call herself "Mommy" to Caylee right in front of Casey. Probably have to say that a couple of times for it to sink in. Grund says this was a calculated move to get under Casey`s skin.
Now, put that together with last night. Nancy Grace explores the twisted family ties. Take a listen to this exchange with producer Natisha Lance about what might have set Casey off.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST, "NANCY GRACE": Natisha Lance, what about a Father`s Day argument? What do you know if anything?
NATISHA LANCE, PRODUCER: Well, Cindy Anthony went to see her parents earlier in that day. And apparently, during this meeting, she was confronted by her mother, who told her that Casey had stolen some money from her grandfather`s assisted living account.
Now, when Cindy Anthony got home, apparently, reportedly, she had this confrontation with Casey. She apparently grabbed Casey around the neck. She was going to kick Casey out of the home. And she apparently told Casey that she was going to be taking custody of Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Gail Saltz, you are seeing this picture of a dysfunctional family, a battle of wills between mother and daughter. Could the motive, according to prosecutors, could they argue revenge? Revenge by Casey against Cindy for her basically treating the child as her own?
GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST: You know, Jane, I got to tell you. There are a lot of dysfunctional families. There are a lot of mothers and daughters who don`t get along and who have friction. And when there`s a grandchild involved, it can often involve that child. But they don`t murder their child.
So, I mean, could that be a motive of -- a lot of anger and hostility can be taken out in the sense of "I`m going to take something away that you dearly love."
SALTZ: "That will be your punishment." Is it a possible motive? Yes. On the other hand, you know, in the infinite number of mothers and daughters who don`t get along, this would be a very unusual outcome.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Drew Findling, what Natisha Lance, the producer was saying was that this confrontation happened the very day before Caylee disappears, when she`s last seen. It happened on Father`s Day, which is June 15. And the last time she is seen, depending on who you believe, is either the night of June 15 or the morning of June 16. So we`re talking about timing here, too.
SALTZ: You know, it is timing.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But let me -- let me pose that to Drew Findling.
DREW FINDLING, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m really -- I`m really going to go with the psychiatrist on this. I see where they`re going, and I see that they`re upset and I see emotions are flying. But is that reason enough to kill somebody? I think we`re really, really stretching.
I think there`s some other things that materialize that are of concern. Forensic things. Locations of tape over the mouth and the heart on the mouth. Those are very disconcerting.
But in terms of a blow-up in a house, you can go into the living rooms of America today and see parents and children fighting. And no one`s going to be murdered by the next morning.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely. And by the way, we`re not hearing Cindy`s side of the story. And I think she`s been through so much. Her husband, apparently, trying to end his life. But now, thankfully, in the process of regaining the will to live and getting better.
And to have all this stuff said about her, I think is without her being able to really respond and say, "Wait, you know, here`s what the story was," is not fair. But -- but the bottom line is that she was trying to protect her granddaughter.
And let`s talk about the forensics. Because that`s absolutely fascinating. We`re now getting this very clear picture of how prosecutors intend to use the evidence found with little Caylee`s remains. We`re talking about a Winnie the Pooh blanket that cops say matches the set in Caylee`s bedroom was discovered with the body. Also at the scene, a plastic horse similar to others the toddler had at the Anthony residence, which is close by.
So let me ask Bill Manion, the forensic pathologist, why are those items so critical? It matches the scene of the remains with the Anthony home.
BILL MANION, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, they`re trying to find the location of the child`s killing. And presumably, when the body was swept up, thrown in a bag, perhaps other items were taken with the body, and that may be the area -- the location of where the body was murdered, was actually killed.
It was interesting. In the last week the prosecutor has released all the information from the FBI laboratory. And for those forensic fans out there that want to see real FBI reports, it`s quite interesting to see how the FBI is going through all the -- all the evidence presented to them and finding, for instance, that hair in the trunk has mitochondrial DNA of the child that is identical to the mitochondrial DNA of the mother. So...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s not a good sign, Jayne Weintraub. But getting back to the Winnie the Pooh blanket and the plastic horse, OK, the Winnie the Pooh blanket, they say, matches Winnie the Pooh set in the house.
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It matches the set. It doesn`t say that the threads are the same, from the same, and match the ones that were in the room. You see, a part of a matching set could be just a different one from a different store.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But the point -- the point is that -- come on. I mean, what`s the likelihood of...
WEINTRAUB: Everybody has Winnie the Pooh.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s got to be someone who had access to that room. And how many people have access to that room? Could she argue that Zanny the nanny has access to that room? Yes. Apparently she claims that Zanny, who nobody`s ever seen, has a key. But I think this really is very, very huge incriminating evidence.
WEINTRAUB: Jane, what they`re -- and that`s just what the prosecutors want you to think, because of all the leaks in this case that they keep making.
You know, the one motion that Rozzie didn`t mention or I didn`t hear was there`s a motion to recuse the state attorney`s office handling this case tomorrow. That`s first up on the docket at 8:30 a.m.
And that`s a very significant motion. Because what they`re alleging is that the state attorney`s office is supposed to be a neutral body seeking justice. Not seeking a conviction at all costs. It`s a different ethical obligation as a defense attorney.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Jane, we are going to talk about that -- that motion to recuse when we come right back. It`s a biggie. Everybody stay right there.
Just a reminder, Nancy Grace has been following the Caylee Anthony case since day one. She will have the very latest immediately following this program at 8 p.m. Don`t miss it.
And right here on ISSUES, we will have much more analysis of the Caylee Anthony case. What do you think of the details emerging about rifts within the Anthony family? Give me a call: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877- 586-7297 and let me know.
Plus, last night we brought you an intense car chase from California. A woman stole a U-Haul as police pursued her for two hours. Tonight, I will show you the wild finish. It is crazy. You will not believe how this one ends up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: I was in Lake County two days ago.
CASEY ANTHONY, CHARGED WITH MURDER: OK.
CINDY ANTHONY: Is there anything there?
CASEY ANTHONY: Mom? I`m sorry. I love you guys. I miss you.
CINDY ANTHONY: All right, sweetheart. Here`s Dad. Hold on.
CASEY ANTHONY: No. I`m going to hang up and just walk away right now. Because...
CINDY ANTHONY: Please, don`t.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m frustrated and I`m angry and I don`t want to be angry. This is the first time I`ve truly, truly been angry this entire time. But I`m so beyond frustrated with all of this. I can`t even swallow right now. It hurts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Casey and her parents in the lost jailhouse videotapes from August. Everyone reaching the boiling point of frustration and desperation.
I am back with my fantastic panel, and we are taking your calls. Boy, are they lighting up.
Ginger, Georgia, question or thought, ma`am?
CALLER: Yes, Jane, I love your show.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you.
CALLER: I`ll make this really quick. Casey was allowed to have her feelings in jail, her gut feelings that Caylee was nearby and OK. And I have my gut feeling that she killed her baby.
But my question is, defense attorneys. Everyone deserves one in the United States, and I understand that. But is their only objective to get their clients off scot-free, even if they know their client is guilty or even if they don`t know their client is guilty? And where is the justice in that?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it`s a question tailor-made for the feisty Jayne Weintraub, who is a defense attorney.
WEINTRAUB: Ginger, the answer to the question is that a defense attorney`s ethical obligation is to zealously represent their client to their best within the boundaries of the law.
That means defense attorneys don`t make stuff up. They go within the boundaries of the law to zealously advocate for their client. And it doesn`t matter to the lawyer whether the client is guilty or not guilty. They`re going to zealously represent their client.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Janine in California, question or thought?
CALLER: Hi, I was calling regarding the -- I think that Lee obviously knows something about the paternity of this child. I think that if anybody in that family would have known anything, it would have been Lee. And how often do they communicate now? Since she said she was sending everybody individual letters, how...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, you raise a very important point. And I want to go back to Rozzie Franco. My understanding is that the family hasn`t communicated with Casey in more than three months.
And that one of the reasons, according to some of the reports I`ve read -- we don`t have this factually, this is what some people are intuiting into this situation -- is that the family wants to have this funeral behind bars so they can have some private time with Casey and not be audiotaped when they`re having a conversation.
FRANCO: That`s correct, Jane. But they`re not going to be allowed to have that funeral. Getting back to the question, though, as far as the paternity of the child, I mean, you know, I had an exclusive with Cindy back in July. And when I asked her about the -- the child`s father, she said to me plainly, no one`s ever going to know that. No one will ever know the father of the child.
And we had the whole story about the child`s father being killed in a car accident. And she just plainly said, no one`s ever going to know the father of the child.
WEINTRAUB: Sounds like she`s protecting somebody, doesn`t it, Rozzie?
WEINTRAUB: Sounds like she`s protecting somebody, doesn`t it?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No. I think maybe she just doesn`t know who the father of the child is. And what`s interesting is -- maybe we`ll bring Drew on this, into the conversation, is the defense attorney, Jose Baez, seems to be reaching out to Casey`s exes. He wants DNA proof that ex- fiance Jesse Grund is not the father of little Caylee.
Now, why would he want that? Is he going to create a mystery dad who was responsible for this? Do you think that could be their next move, since nobody seems to be buying Zanny the nanny?
FINDLING: I have to tell you, I`m a little confused by this move. And really the only thing that I can think is what you said. It`s throwing a little bit of gray into it. And quite frankly, I think I can figure out a lot of things. But this is one that I can`t figure out, except to possibly cast a little bit of suspicion in another direction.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we got to talk about another gruesome, but very, very crucial piece of evidence: the duct tape found over Caylee`s mouth and stuck to her hair.
Now, according to the search warrant and "People" magazine, quote, "Duct tape that could have been used to silence Caylee." Authorities are checking to see if that heart-shaped sticker that was apparently on the tape matches any stickers in the Anthony home.
Now, this is very crucial. When "People" magazine pressed their source to answer why the duct tape was valuable, was it because it contained fingerprints? The answer was, quote, "Read between the lines."
Dr. Bill Manion, if -- and I`m saying "if." I don`t know this. But hypothetically, if Casey`s fingerprints are on that duct tape, is it all over for the defense?
MANION: Well, it`s just another nail in the coffin, because it`s another piece of evidence that that duct tape was handled by her.
I was also concerned that epithelial cells could have been left on the duct tape with DNA, and perhaps they can do DNA studies on those cells and see who that match is.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yesenia in California, your question or thought, ma`am?
CALLER: Hi. I was just wondering, do you think Casey Anthony hid the baby`s body from her parents because of some sort of Munchausen by proxy disorder?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Well, we got to go to Dr. Gail Saltz on that. But what`s interesting is that there have been numerous reports now that Cindy was sort of in denial about the pregnancy. And, in fact, her brother noticed that Casey appeared very pregnant. And Cindy apparently said, "No, she`s just gained a few pounds."
SALTZ: Well, that sounds like maternal denial of something that your -- I mean, it`s not unusual for a mother to be stunned and perhaps even very unhappy if they have an unmarried daughter who is not planning to be pregnant get pregnant.
But Munchausen by proxy is a very interesting question. It`s a very real phenomenon. But you would expect that there would be a history of many doctor`s visits...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What the heck is it?
SALTZ: Well, Munchausen by proxy...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: In a nutshell.
SALTZ: In a nutshell, it is a parent who makes their child sick. Usually very, very sick, purposely, over and over again, really so that they can get attention for themselves.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I don`t think that`s happening here.
SALTZ: It can happen. And actually, you can end up killing the child accidentally. But that might be the intention.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me give Jane Weintraub the final word here in terms of the evidence, the forensics coming together. It seems pretty -- pretty damning, at least on the surface.
WEINTRAUB: I still don`t see any forensics that have put it together. I see a horse cup that was similar to a toddler. Everybody has Winnie the Pooh or Sesame Street stuff in their house when they have a 3-year-old. That`s No. 1.
I still don`t see a manner of death, a time of death, and I don`t know how or where the baby was killed or by whom.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me tell you, if I`m ever in trouble, Jayne, I`m calling you.
I want to thank my fabulous panel, of course. We`re going to have more on Caylee and Casey in a minute.
First, a woman gives birth to octuplets. We`ll explain. It`s a shocker.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: For only the second time in U.S. history, a Los Angeles woman has given birth to octuplets. That means eight kids coming out one after the other. Eight.
The mother`s name has not been released, but speculation abounds as to whether she used fertility drugs. Now we hear mom already has six other kids at home. We are talking 14 children total. What was she thinking? Was she thinking?
With me, my panel: Jim Beck, national field director of the Christian Coalition of America and Dr. Michael Tucker, a clinical embryologist and fertility expert.
Doctor, can a woman have eight children without fertility drugs? Is that likely? And what`s your opinion if, in fact, that`s not likely and she did take fertility drugs?
DR. MICHAEL TUCKER, CLINICAL EMBRYOLOGIST: The fact of the matter is in nature this would just not occur. And given the state of the assistive preproductive technology these days it would be irresponsible to end up with a pregnancy with eight fetuses. So the fact of the matter is it`s very likely she took the drugs herself or with poor guidance from a physician.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jim Beck, a team of 46 doctors and nurses and medical personnel prepped for weeks for this. Now these children are in incubators and respirators.
Who`s paying for all this? This woman apparently comes from a low- income family. She`s already got six kids. She`s living with her parents. This to me is the height of irresponsibility.
JIM BECK, CHRISTIAN COALITION OF AMERICA: Well, first of all, let me say we pray for the children. We pray for the mother. They`re here now, regardless of how they got here. They`re here now. And obviously, we have to take care of them.
It is -- it is a concern. I mean, it`s one thing to become a single parent by virtue of a divorce or death. It`s something out of your control. It`s another thing to set out to be one. That concerns me greatly.
I`m not going to bash single parents, but I can tell you this. I`ve really got to question the wisdom of a woman that has six children having some more. But this is America.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me ask you a question. Do you think it would be OK if she could have 14 kids as long as she had a husband? That would make it OK?
BECK: I think that, you know, we as a society don`t really embrace the power of two parents raising children.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, but that`s another issue. I mean, with all due respect, the issue here is that we have a severe overpopulation crisis on this planet. The planet cannot sustain the increases in population that we`re experiencing.
Each day in the third world, 16,000 children die from hunger or malnutrition. That`s one child dying every 5.4 seconds.
Do you think, Jim, that in this day and age, with what`s going on with this world, that somebody who certainly can`t afford it should have 14 children? And even if they could afford it and even if they were married, should they have 14 children?
BECK: I really don`t know what her intent was. I mean, I hope her intent was not to have eight children. Because I think that would have been the height -- as you said, the height of irresponsibility. I hope that was not her intent.
Quite frankly, the technology is well ahead of us as a people. And, you know, with all due respect to Dr. Tucker and his colleagues, at the end of the day, they`re working awfully hard to improve this type of technology. And we as a people just haven`t come to terms with where we are on this issue, even the faith community is divided.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Tucker, let me ask you briefly, what are the health risks that these children face down the road if they survive?
TUCKER: Jane, there`s a possibility that these children may end up with cerebral palsy or even fairly subtle developmental anomalies as they grow up. It`s pretty darn high. We won`t even go into the social impact or the context of having that many children growing up in a single household. Certainly...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ve got to go, doctor.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you for your insights.
A Missouri man accused of raping and impregnating his daughter. I`m going to speak to the two brave daughters who reported it. Amazing. Don`t miss it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Stunning, isn`t it? Anthony family secrets revealed in "People" magazine. Fights, separation, e-mail wars. How other family members fumed at Cindy and George for remaining in denial. Now, how Casey`s own parents may be changing their tune on Casey`s role in her daughter`s death.
We`re back discussing the Caylee Anthony murder case and the stunning new developments brought to life by "People" magazine, and of course the judge`s order to Casey Anthony, "You must come to court." That`s tomorrow morning at 8:30.
Still with me: Jayne Weintraub and Drew Findling. You know, we were talking about this Baez motion to recuse which is a fancy way of saying, Jayne, that he wants the entire prosecution team thrown off the case.
First of all, that is highly unusual. But two of the basic explanations that he is giving for why he wants the entire prosecution team thrown off: one, that there were multiple leaks to the media made by the prosecution about chloroform, duct tape and other issues. In other words, we the media found out about it long before the discovery was released, even before, perhaps, they, the defense, got the discovery.
Is that a good ground for recusing the prosecution team?
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it`s one of the grounds. Yes, it certainly is. It shows that they are not abiding by the rules. They are seeking to prejudice the potential jurors that are out there rather than seeking justice, which is their ethical obligation.
The other thing is don`t forget, Jane, what we talked about last week. The prosecutors probably anonymously filed this bar complaint against Jose Baez further distracting him and interfering with Casey`s Sixth Amendment right to freedom of counsel.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Funny you should mention that because in the motion to recuse, Drew Findling, the defense says that on January 26th, 2009 -- just recently -- WFTV reported that someone from state attorney`s office forwarded news releases about defense attorney Baez to the media. Should that be grounds for recusal?
DREW FINDLING, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it certainly to me is grounds for recusal. The reason is because we don`t want a system where prosecutors want to select the defense attorneys they want. Maybe the Baez law firm is being so aggressive and is drawing in experts from all over the country on a minimal budget and the prosecutors decide they`re being a little bit too intimidating, so now we`ll try to get them removed from the case.
I`d certainly be doing the same thing as the Baez law firm. We talk an awful lot about this dream team. But you can have all the people you want on your team but you can`t equal up to a prosecution and law enforcement that leak information to the press before you have the opportunity to view it. It`s unconscionable. And that`s where things need to be evened out. I`m glad to see the Baez law firm is getting people to help them even the score.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So this is going to be a possibly a very ugly, fiery hearing tomorrow. He also, by the way, claims the state attorney`s office leaked negative stuff to the Florida bar which then began an investigation.
The phone line`s lighting up. Danja, Ohio, question or thought, ma`am?
DANJA, OHIO: Yes. If the police are looking for the place Caylee was murdered, have they checked for chloroform residue in the Anthony house, especially in Caylee`s bedroom?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t know if we have the answer to that. I think, Jayne Weintraub, it`s certainly a smart idea.
WEINTRAUB: What we don`t have is the inventory for the search warrant. They always tell you where they`re going, but they don`t tell you that it was fruitless; they didn`t find what they were looking from. Believe me, if they had the chloroform source they would have reported it already. So far I have not seen it in any of the documents released.
FINDLING: Jane, I think the more we start probing in the house, I just want to comment a little on what Jayne talked about regarding the stuff found from the house or questionably from the house around the body. I`m telling you, having done so many multi-defendant cases, I know Jayne`s done them, at some point it becomes an "every man for himself" mentality. When we have grandma and grandpa seeking immunity, when we find things in the house, we have suicide attempts. Sometimes it doesn`t make a difference that you`re grandma and grandpa and daughter. Sometimes that "every man for himself" mentality hits and we may be seeing that in the weeks and months ahead.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we have to leave it right there but we`re going to stay on top of the story. We`re going to cover the 8:30 a.m. hearing from start to finish. Tune in on "ISSUES" to get the very latest on what comes out of that hearing.
Drew, Jayne, thank you so much.
Don`t forget Nancy Grace up at 8:00 p.m. She`s also going to have the very latest on the Anthony family in crisis. You don`t want to miss it.
Now, I want to turn to a story that continues to make my blood boil. Alleged Ponzi scheme swindler Bernie Madoff whining that his $7 million penthouse is too small for his big self. "The New York Post" reports that Madoff, who is under house arrest, is fuming, complaining, quote, "I can`t go anywhere."
Well, Boo-hoo-hoo, Bernie. You won`t get any sympathy from me or the many, many people whose lives you ruined. Wells Fargo bank has just been forced to write off $294 million because Madoff`s fraud wiped out many of its clients, leaving them unable to pay their loans. Wells Fargo is the first big bank to report taking a hit because of Madoff`s alleged $50 bill Ponzi scheme.
With me now, my fantastic panel: Ali Velshi, CNN chief business correspondent and author of "Give Me My Money Back" and Congressman Anthony Weiner of New York who has publicly called for Madoff`s bail to be revoked.
Congressman, now Madoff, as you heard reportedly complaining about house arrest. Can you believe that this guy is playing the "poor me" card when he has ruined countless lives? What is wrong with these judges that they will not throw this guy in jail?
REP. ANTHONY WEINER, (D) NEW YORK: Well, it`s truly remarkable that he even is in the penthouse to begin with and then to hear that he`s complaining. Imagine how this sounds to his victims. Some of them are literally without any place to live at all, charities that were cleaned out by his Ponzi scheme. And now he`s complaining that he can`t go to his favorite French restaurant in the evening.
You know, it really does make your blood boil because it reinforces the idea that there are different rules for Bernie Madoff than for anyone else who got caught committing a crime this heinous.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, it`s true. There are different rules.
Ali Velshi, when we hear Wells Fargo took a write-off of almost $300 million because their customers had invested with Madoff and couldn`t pay back their loans, is that the tip of the iceberg? Are other banks going to come forward and say similar things?
ALI VELSHI, CNN SENIOR BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: You know, the interesting thing is lots of secondary investors had invested with Bernie Madoff. A lot of people we`ve spoken to, Jane, who have invested $10,000 or $15,000 -- not rich people -- with somebody who then invested with Bernie Madoff.
So I think you`re going to hear of a lot of people who were invested with him. He claims there was -- allegedly claims that there was $50 billion involved. Investigators haven`t found much more than $30 billion. So clearly, he knows something they don`t.
A lot of the callers and e-mailers we get, Jane, have exactly the same question that you do. What is it that`s keeping him out there? If I were him with those kind of allegations against me, I`d be kind of happy that I was stuck in my fancy penthouse as opposed to in a jail cell, which is where a lot of people think, given the allegations, that he should be. It`s a very, very strange situation given that we thought we had toughened up about white collar crime.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And personally, I think that it`s another example of why he`s a flight risk in my opinion because he`s complaining about being in a penthouse.
VELSHI: He wants to get out.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, exactly.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Congressman, let me ask you about this. According to published reports the probe is being widened. Now New York state investigators are looking into claims that a prominent Madoff middleman may have had a role in ripping off charities and nonprofits for millions of dollars. What do you know about how this scandal is spreading out?
REP. WEINER: The line of reasoning is that no one steals $50 billion on their own. And did all these people who were directing people to make investments into Bernie Madoff`s funds, did all of them have clean hands? Did they all get duped as well?
There`s an element to this that`s strains credibility. That so many people who are so sophisticated, who are so skillful at earning at lot of money would have been completely duped by Bernie Madoff. A lot of investigators are thinking there`s no way one person can steal $50 billion all on their own.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, then President-elect Obama had this to say last month about the need for reform in the aftermath of the Madoff scandal. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In the last few days, the alleged scandal at Madoff investment securities has reminded us yet again of how badly reform is needed when it comes to the rules and regulations that govern our markets. Charities that invested in Madoff could end up losing savings on which millions depend; a massive fraud that was made possible in part because the regulators who were assigned to oversee Wall Street dropped the ball.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ali Velshi, Congress is supposed to be looking into this again next week. But hearings, hearings, hearings -- what about action to prevent this from happening again? What about an investigation into the SEC in terms of why they didn`t catch this?
VELSHI: Two parts to this story. First of all, for the people listening to us who probably don`t have the kind of money that people invested with Madoff, please don`t depend on regulatory agencies to protect you. We`ve seen time and time again with Enron, at WorldCom and Tyco that that won`t be the case. So please diversify your investments and don`t assume that because you invest in something it`s safe.
Secondarily, the SEC doesn`t have the teeth to have been on this case but they should. The bottom line is they are a regulatory agency and they should have the ability to investigate and find out when things are wrong. Especially when they`re tipped off as the SEC was that there was something wrong with Madoff.
Fundamentally, that`s not what they do. This administration has got to convince investors and the American public that regulation really is regulation. It`s oversight. It doesn`t have to stop the flow of good business. But it does have to stop the flow of bad business. And this administration has got to get on that pretty fast.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Congressman, it just seems like prosecutors are just not taking this as seriously as they should. There were reports that they`re just now in the process of putting bugs in his apartment, listening devices. This scandal broke in December. Shouldn`t we have been listening all along?
REP. WEINER: I can`t say with certitude when certain steps were taken. I do know that very early on the prosecutors had made a decision that they weren`t going to ask that Bernie Madoff be held without bail. They eventually came around to the position when Bernie Madoff was squirreling away a million dollars worth of watches and trinkets that they better do that.
The problem that we seem to have here is I don`t think people quite understand that there`s really only two places Bernie Madoff should be. He should be in a jail cell or he should handcuffed to his desk pointing to FBI officers on where the money is.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly. Thank you Ali, Congressman. Please come back soon.
REP. WEINER: Thank you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Shocking story here: a Missouri man accused of raping and impregnating one of his daughters. I will speak to the two courageous daughters who turned this monster in. That is next.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Danial Rinehart accused of raping and impregnating his own daughter. In just moments I`ll talk to the two other daughter who had the courage to report him to authorities.
But first, "Top of the Block" tonight: yes, we have it for you; the conclusion to the wild car chase in California. I promised it and I`m delivering. Alicia Mankin stole a U-Haul and led cops on a two-hour chase through southern California.
It all started when she and a male companion were pulled over Wednesday afternoon. The man was detained but Mankin jumped into the truck and sped away, beginning a two-hour ordeal. She drove across medians, weaved through downtown L.A. And even drove on sidewalks.
The dramatic chase had an intense finish as Mankin jumped out of the truck and ran down the street -- there you see her -- before cops finally - - there he goes, he`s just about got -- they got her. Tackled her to the ground. Mankin will be charged with possession of a stolen vehicle, reckless evasion, DUI -- why isn`t that one shocking -- and misdemeanor hit and run.
The lesson here: if your get away vehicle is a rental truck, you may want to rethink the whole thing from beginning to end. I just don`t think it`s going to work.
Now to an update on a truly twisted story out of the Midwest. The unimaginable horror suffered by a teenage girl at the hands of her own father. The 47-year-old Danial Rinehart is accused of raping her night after night from the age of 13. The family moved frequently so neighbors would not begin to notice the unspeakable acts going on behind closed doors.
Rinehart was expected in court today to a hearing related to incest and murder charges. His daughter is not the only one who suffered abuse at his hands. After giving birth to four children, he is also charged with killing one of them -- giving birth to four children by his daughter, I might add. Only one of those four children survives today. Rinehart`s hearing has been postponed until March.
I am now very privileged to be joined by two of his other daughters, Terri and Hayley Rinehart. They were brave enough to save their sibling by escaping their father`s clutches and telling authorities about their ordeal and the toxic secrets in the home.
Terri and Hayley, first off, let me say how courageous I think you were to risk your lives to help your sister. Bravo to you.
Hayley, let`s start with you. Apparently your mother, your father and all of you four daughters lived together in a very small camper. What were the sleeping arrangements and how did you first come to learn of your sister`s sexual abuse?
HAYLEY RINEHART, DAUGHTER OF DENIAL RINEHART: Well, I was really scared from all of us living in the same place, you know, we`d been sleeping in a motor home. And everybody`s, you know, all together. And just sitting there listening to my dad, whatever he`s doing to my sister. You know, hurting her, raping her, doing all this. And I had enough of it. I just got -- I had enough and I just turned him in.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: He had threatened, according to you in published reports, he threatened to kill you if you said anything?
H. RINEHART: Yes, he has threatened to kill me because I opened my mouth and I got him in trouble with the cops.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I know this has to be very, very difficult for you. I`ll address this to Terri. You`ve said both of you that you`d like to see your parents go to jail. What, Terri, was your mother`s role in all of this?
TERRI RINEHART, DAUGHTER OF DANIAL RINEHART: She was basically sometimes not around. She was gone between -- she and my dad never really got along. But they stayed married. They often told me that they were going to get -- get divorces, but I never really saw it.
And it`s difficult because we had to live that way. We were always on the run. I can`t describe how -- how everything was. It`s just so -- it`s a nightmare for me right now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, do you think your mom knew about the incest between your father and your sister?
T. RINEHART: Yes, she knew about it. She knew about this since Ashley was 13. Since my sister was 13.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Let`s not mention names. We want to preserve the privacy of somebody`s who`s gone through a lot. I understand she`s in a safe place and that you have a message for her, Hayley. What is your message for your sister who we`re not going to name?
H. RINEHART: I love my sister. I`m proud of what I done. I`m glad I saved her life and she doesn`t have to suffer no more what was going on. She don`t have to suffer and I love her very much. I can`t wait to see my sister.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What was her reaction to this continuing alleged abuse over time? Did she fight it?
H. RINEHART: She was scared a lot. You know how girls when they get raped they are scared. She was scared a lot more than anything.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to say before we go any further that there is a fund, a Rinehart`s children fund, that is set up. We want to make sure that people who are concerned about what you`ve gone through donate generously: FNC Bank, P.O. Box 157, Holden, Missouri 64040. We hope that people who realize that you young women need help now will be generous.
Let me ask you a little bit, Terri, about the boy who was the product of the incestuous union according to allegations, there is a 3-year-old boy that your sister had who was fathered by your father. Where is this child now and how is he doing?
T. RINEHART: I`m not going to say where he`s at. I`m just going to say he`s safe right now and he`s doing okay. I`m just not going to say where he`s at right now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is he physically healthy?
T. RINEHART: Yes, he is.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you plan on having a relationship with him down the road?
T. RINEHART: Yes, I do.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you love him?
T. RINEHART: Yes, I do.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. You young ladies are absolutely astounding, and I just applaud you know. I applaud you for what you are doing and what you`ve done. Stay right there.
We have to take a very quick break, but first, here is the suspect`s brother reacting to these accusations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GARY RINEHART, SUSPECT`S BROTHER: It`s kind of like, you know, being in a nightmare just seeing this. It`s hard for me to understand what`s going on and to believe what`s happened because, see, I`m still that little kid remembering him taking me to my football games, watching me, being a dad look up thing for me and, yes, it`s really torn our family apart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOLORES RINEHART, DANIAL RINEHART`S MOTHER: I didn`t even know it. I didn`t even know that girl was pregnant. To me, I think I`m that dumb to know that these things happened, and I didn`t know about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That was the mother of Danial Rinehart, the man accused of fathering four children with his own daughter and murdering one of them.
I want to bring in Gail Saltz, psychiatrist, to analyze. You heard these young women -- these courageous young women who finally got old enough to turn their father in essentially. What do they have to deal with in terms of recovery? What are your thoughts hearing them speak?
GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, actually, they are remarkably impressive. Sexual abuse and additionally, they`re really speaking of tremendous, emotional abuse to be told I`m going to kill you if you, you know, speak about this. They were abused as well.
Sexual abuse is really about the most traumatic experience one can have. It`s essentially, you know, soul murder.
It is very difficult to recover from, though treatment would absolutely be, I`m saying imperative here really for all of these girls because for the girl who reported to, you know, the conflict between the guilt that she must have felt listening to this and knowing that it was going on and the fear that it could happen to her as well. The fear that he would kill her if she reported. So all of these feelings, it`s just a tremendous, overwhelming conflict.
In addition, for these girls, this is their father, too. And so who is going to take care of them? You know, who is going to love them? Kids, even when parents abuse them desperately long for and try to hold on to some decent, good parent because that`s all they`ve got; even if it`s not real and even if it`s not there. It`s what keeps them there a lot of the time.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What does this three-year-old boy face as he grows up and becomes old enough to find out this he`s the union of incest?
SALTZ: Yes, I mean, you know, look, this is the worst disaster of all disasters. He will need a lot of treatment. He will need a lot of support. He will need those girls to be his loving family. To be the surrogates, you know, who love him and support him. And I think that with treatment, you know, the question is for all of them. How are they going to go on to have healthy, intimate relationships themselves? That`s what is most potentially --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We have to leave it there but a lot of wisdom there, courageous young women, a terrible bind (ph).
I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell and you`re watching "ISSUES."
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What mother would hurt their own child? A truly disturbing trial under way right now in Texas as a young mother stands accused of the beating death of her angelic little two-year-old Riley Ann Sawyer (ph). Riley, a beautiful child, really beautifully, beautifully raised until she was horrifically killed. I will have the heart wrenching details. That is tomorrow on "ISSUES."
Right now it`s time to check in with Nancy Grace. Nancy, what do you have for us tonight?
NANCY GRACE, ANCHOR, "NANCY GRACE": Jane, the clock ticking down on a courtroom showdown. Local reports emerge, jail officials say they will use force if necessary to ensure tot mom Casey Anthony shows up in court tomorrow morning. And as we go to air, Jane, the defense demanding sealed documents regarding DNA parentage of Caylee, in other words, who`s the daddy?
And, Jane, an all-American coed accused of the violent murder of her 21-year-old British roommate.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wild story. Thank you, Nancy.
"Nancy Grace" starts right now.