Return to Transcripts main page


Caylee Anthony Murder Case; Ashley Judd vs. Sarah Palin; Octuplet Mom Speaks Out

Aired February 6, 2009 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Casey Anthony`s kooky comparison. The attorneys for the woman charged with murdering her baby girl, Caylee, told "The Today Show" Casey Anthony has got a lot in common with "The Fugitive"?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I told her not to remember.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: A bit of a stretch?

Also, the countdown to Caylee`s memorial service begins. Furious preparations are being made for this major event, but Casey`s family`s attorney has a serious message for attendees.

BRAD CONWAY, ANTHONY FAMILY`S ATTORNEY: Nothing is going to get in the way of a dignified and respectful service for this little girl.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Plus, she`s the controversial one-woman baby boom. Now Nadya Suleman, who gave birth to eight babies last week, is finally talking. You`ve got to hear her bizarre explanation of why she wanted to have more babies when she already had six.

And Ashley Judd takes aim at Sarah Palin.

ASHLEY JUDD, ACTRESS: It is time to stop Sarah Palin and stop the senseless savagery.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Judd`s crusade to ban the controversial practice of aerial wolf hunting heat up. We`ll tell you why the movie star had Sarah Palin locked in her sights. All the latest fiery details coming up.

ISSUES starts now.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, brand-new developments in the Caylee Anthony murder investigation. Furious preparation gets under way for little Caylee`s public memorial service this coming Tuesday.

Meantime, Anthony family attorney Brad Conway had some warnings to issue on "LARRY KING LIVE."


CONWAY: There are some people out there that do not have good intentions. I know there are people out there looking for pictures of Caylee`s remains, as well as actual remains. So we`re going to make sure that security is tight and nothing is going to get in the way of a dignified and respectful service for this little girl.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And as Conway warns against any indignity, including pictures, local affiliate WFTV is now reporting that Casey Anthony may be willing to part with more photos of daughter Caylee to help pay for her defense.

Plus, in a twist you would never predict, Casey`s defense team has a new theme.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The name, Dr. Richard Kimble. The destination, Death Row State Prison. The irony, Richard Kimble is innocent.

"The Fugitive"!


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. They are comparing her to Dr. Richard Kimble, "The Fugitive." Casey`s defense attorney, Linda Kenney Baden, drew that comparison this morning on "The Today Show."


LINDA KENNEY BADEN, CASEY ANTHONY`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The person who seemed to be so guilty, that the locals had made this person so guilty, he was so hated. He ran from the law. It turns out he was innocent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And in this case?

KENNEY BADEN: And in this case, we believe our client is innocent.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, depending on your age, and I`m not going to reveal mine, you either remember "The Fugitive" movie, "The Fugitive" TV show or the actual case of Sam Shepherd, upon whom the TV show was based. Either way, we know how that story ends, that he`s innocent and somebody else did it. But will Casey`s be ending the same way?

Joining me now, Pam Bondi, Florida state prosecutor; and Darren Kavinoky, criminal defense attorney as well as Jennifer Herstein, a clinical psychologist. And boy, do we need one tonight. Plus, Rozzie Franco, a reporter at 540 WFL AM.

Rozzie, let me get this straight, are they saying Zenaida is the one- armed man, or might they be alluding to the fact that they have found another mystery person who they say is responsible?

ROZZIE FRANCO, REPORTER, WFL AM: It`s really interesting, Jane. That`s exactly what I thought. They were pointing the finger to Zenaida. And what they were really saying is they were equating the press to "The Fugitive," the way the press really came down on Dr. Kimble in that actual show, to how the press is coming down on Casey. The difference here is what happened with Casey after her daughter went missing is her behavior, and that`s why it blew up so much in the press.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, I have to say, Pam Bondi, that Linda Kenney Baden is a very, very savvy attorney. And there has to be a method to her madness.

Remember, this is the woman who is credited with getting a hung jury in the Phil Spector case, which was considered an open and shut case. He`s a man with a history, a long history of pulling guns on people. He was the only other person in the mansion or the castle with Lana Clarkson when she was shot in the mouth, and it was considered an open-and-shut case.

Then Linda Kenney Baden got involved. And guess what? We had a hung jury, and the retrial is occurring as we speak. What is she up to with this "fugitive" comparison?

PAM BONDI, FLORIDA STATE PROSECUTOR: Well, first of the all, don`t think this was the first high-profile defendant to be compared to Sam Shepherd, the truly innocent man. I think she`s got a very creative mind. She`s a very brilliant, lawyer, of course. And I was shocked as well that Phil Spector was a mistrial. She`s a good lawyer. And she`s going to come up with anything she can, anything, to distract away it from her client.

Now, we do know she`s clearly not going to go with an insanity defense. Because to go with insanity, she has to say her client`s guilty. So she`s saying she is not guilty; she`s innocent, and somebody else did it. The problem is coming up with a credible, alternate suspect.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s exactly where we`re going right now. I can`t get enough of this "Fugitive" thing. It was made famous by the 1960s TV show, famously claiming that a one-armed man killed his wife. In the end, we learned that he`s actually innocent and telling the truth.

Now, when asked on "The Today Show" this morning, who is this trial`s version of the one-armed man, this is what Casey Anthony`s attorney Jose Baez said.


JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: We have a defense in which we believe Casey Anthony is innocent, and we will show that out in trial. And that`s really as much as we can say.

As much as we want to go out there and scream it from the top of the mountains, we don`t feel that`s in her best interest. And, quite frankly, that`s the type of situation we find ourselves in. She faces -- it`s her against the world right now. And, quite frankly, it doesn`t do any defense attorney any advantage by disclosing what your defense is before the day of trial. (END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Darren Kavinoky, nobody seems to be believing the Zanny the Nanny story. So is there another one-armed person out there?

DARREN KAVINOKY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there better be something out there. But I absolutely agree with what the defense is doing. It`s going to be a long time before this case plays out in a court of law.

And so at this point they`re doing what they need to do, which is to influence the court of public opinion. And candidly, that`s where the 12 people that will ultimately have the real decision to make in the case are going to be drawn from.

So they`ve got to get out there with something, and to compare their client to an innocent person, where the odds and the evidence seemed overwhelming in his guilt, it`s a -- it`s a smart move. And I got to tip my hat to that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Jennifer Herstein, as a psychologist, it seems to me that they`re trying to make her into some kind of a media martyr. I mean, Jose Baez saying it`s her against the world. Is this going to work? I mean, considering that we have seen photos of her out dancing and partying during the very time period where her daughter was missing and nobody had reported it to the police for a month.

JENNIFER HERSTEIN, PSYCHOLOGIST: Right. I think it`s a very interesting question. I think there are a lot of people that look at what she did and say, "Your daughter just died. How could you be doing these things? And at the same time you have to figure out a way to have some sort of sympathy."

So to play it that it`s everybody against poor Casey. And isn`t it such a shame? And we have to find some way to tap into the society`s need to feel badly for her. And I think that that`s a really great strategy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s see if it works. You know, after watching Linda Kenney Baden, I guess it fits, I really do, that they are taking a page from the O.J. Simpson trial. Listen to what she said this morning on "The Today Show." Then I`ll get your response.


KENNEY BADEN: I am an attorney who specializes or likes to specialize, likes to specialize, dabbling, some people would say, in forensics. But this one relies on science. And we`re going to find out in the next week or so from the National Academies of science, that what prosecutors put forward sometimes as science, what law enforcement puts forward as science.

I have to separate this case. I can`t specifically talk about this case, may not be science. It may not be accurate, may never have been tested, may not be reliable. But we`re going to be looking hard and fast at what we`re given, when we`re given the scientists` gathers (ph), which we have not been given so far, for the most part. And we`ll have it reviewed by our experts.

And then my job will be to advise Jose and the client what the science really shows and what it doesn`t show, more importantly.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, boy. I`ve got to get my attorney`s response on this. Let`s start with Pam, but I want to hear from Darren, too. I mean, isn`t this the whole garbage in, garbage out...

BONDI: Sure is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... strategy that Johnnie Cochran used with such tremendous effect during O.J.?

BONDI: And Jane, you`ve been saying that, too. You thought this was going to be the defense. And yes, I think that`s exactly what it`s going to be. They`re going to try to muddy the waters with anything they can find: a hair, anything at that crime scene. A Coke can with someone else`s fingerprint on it anywhere near the woods. Anything that can distract attention away from their client.

What prosecutors are going to do is stay focused. We know we believe they have a strong case. And they are going to keep their eye on the ball, and they`re just going to lay it out and chip away at her, and her credibility, and what kind of mother she was, what kind of person she was, along with all the evidence. And I think the defense is still going to have a real tough time.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Darren Kavinoky, remember back in O.J. when they kept saying, "Oh, look at the criminologists stepping all over the crime scene," like they`re supposed to fly in and pick up evidence without ever touching the ground. They made that work, though.

KAVINOKY: Well, wait a second. In this particular case, what we`ve got to do, we`re talking about staying focused. What I was just hearing was that Casey Anthony is engaging in conduct unbecoming to a mother, or especially conduct unbecoming to a grieving mother. And that`s not necessarily firm evidence that this is the person who committed the crime.


KAVINOKY: And so -- and I also think that Linda Baden is being quite modest when she says she dabbles in science. She shares a pillow at night with Michael Baden, who`s one of the best forensic experts in the business. So it`s more than just a passing fancy with her. If there are scientific challenges to be mounted, she`s exactly the right lawyer for the job.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we saw it. We saw this go down in the Phil Spector case. They created confusion. And where there is chaos and confusion, sometimes there`s a hung jury or even an acquittal.

All right. We`re just getting started on the Caylee Anthony case. Don`t forget: Nancy Grace is up immediately following this program at 8 p.m. She will have the very latest on all of these breaking developments.

And we will have much more right here on ISSUES. In just a minute, I will speak to Casey Anthony`s civil attorney to see what he`s got up his sleeve for the Zanny the nanny case.

But first, here is the Anthony family attorney discussing plans for Caylee`s memorial.


CONWAY: There are some people out there who do not have good intentions. I know that there are people out there looking for pictures of Caylee`s remains as well as actual remains. So we`re going to make sure that security is tight and nothing is going to get in the way of a dignified and respectful service for this little girl.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What has your life been like?

ZENAIDA FERNANDEZ-GONZALEZ, SUING CASEY ANTHONY FOR DEFAMATION: Horrible. Horrible. My name -- because it`s not so much because they know my face, but it`s because they know my name. Since they know my name everywhere I go, they`re obviously insinuating that I did something wrong because my name is so much on the news. So I haven`t been able to get a job. I haven`t been able to do much of nothing, because everybody is just judging me by my name.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That was Zenaida Gonzalez before she revealed her face, explaining how Casey Anthony`s mention of her name has ruined her life.

Joining me now, in addition to my fantastic panel, Jonathan Kasen, the civil attorney for Casey Anthony.

Thank you so much for joining us tonight, Jonathan. I want to ask you, you say you`re filing a mystery motion. What indeed is that mystery motion?

JONATHAN KASEN, CIVIL ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: I wouldn`t deem it a mystery motion, but we`re filing a motion to dismiss, a motion for sanctions and a motion for what`s commonly referred to as 57105, or attorney`s fees in this case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So what sanctions -- what are you basing the request for sanctions upon?

KASEN: Well, we`re requesting sanctions, because it`s our position, based upon the research that I`ve done, based upon the facts in this case, that it`s clear that this case was brought solely to generate publicity for the plaintiff`s firm.

It`s clear that Ms. Anthony had a qualified privilege to speak to the police in mid-July of `08 when she did, specifically Detective Melich (ph). And in doing so, anything that she said as it related to the furtherance of an investigation of a crime, is protected. That, coupled with the fact that the Zenaida Gonzalez that she refers to has no connection to the plaintiff.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let`s bring in our other attorneys. Pam Bondi, do you think that the sanctions have a shot?

BONDI: I don`t, and I can tell you, I personally know John Morgan. I talked to him about this case. And he cared deeply about Zenaida Gonzalez and what she`s been through. He really, truly does. This woman needs to clear her name. And I think the problem -- and it`s tough for Jonathan. He has the civil suit and then you`ve got Jose Baez with the criminal suit. And, of course, Jonathan can`t let her say anything in the civil suit. Completely understand that.

But however, if Baez is still in the criminal suit, what we just heard, they haven`t given away their mystery defense, is going to maintain that Zenaida Gonzalez has something to do with this, the woman has the right to clear her name.

The timing of it, of course, isn`t good, any way you look at it, but Zenaida Gonzalez needs to clear her name, especially now at the trial Casey Anthony`s going to stick to the story that she`s given numerous times to law enforcement that Zenaida Gonzalez had something to do with it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jonathan, speak your piece (ph)?

KASEN: Well, I disagree with her. I don`t believe Mr. Morgan has any interest here, other than generating publicity for his firm. I believe, if you look at his tactics, look at the myriad of interviews that he`s given - - this is the first interview I`ve ever given on television on this matter.

If you look at the fact that he`s inviting the media to certain depositions. If you look at the fact that he sought to depose Casey Anthony during a criminal case, it`s clear that he`s not looking for the truth here. He`s looking to generate publicity.

Because if you look at what happened in the O.J. case in the mid-`90s in California, Dana Petrocelli`s (ph) firm filed a civil lawsuit subsequent to a resolution in the criminal case so that O.J. would be forced to answer questions.

In this case, she cannot be forced to answer questions during the pendency of a criminal case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Jonathan, what about the argument that, since you have filed a counterclaim, that you`re basically undermining your own argument, because you have also filed a legal action in the civil arena?

KASEN: That`s an interesting question, Jane. And the way I would answer it is that Mr. Morgan has put forth this idea. I think the media has picked this up, and it`s patently inaccurate.

The law and Florida statutes require that, if you are sued and you wish to bring either a counterclaim or an affirmative defense, it must be filed at the time in which you file your answer. And it looks as if Mr. Morgan wants it both ways. He wants to say, "I want to proceed forward in this matter, but I should not be allowed to file an answer. And if I do file an answer, then I am subjecting my client to a deposition." That`s patently incorrect.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I could just hear Darren Kavinoky trying to jump in on this conversation.

KAVINOKY: Well, and I agree with all of the legal blah, blah, blah that`s going on. But the thing that I think of with Zenaida Gonzalez is, I`m recalling Ed McMahon, who recently went through this -- this bankruptcy and all of the proceedings that he did. And now he`s turned that around and he`s doing commercials for check-cashing places.

I`m not sure that Zenaida Gonzalez needs protection. I`m sure that there are people out there that would appreciate...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But she said she`s been fired because of this. She said nobody wants anything to do with her because they think the media`s going to approach her. She can`t get work. She`s got kids. I mean, she says this has impacted her life.

KAVINOKY: I know -- I know that`s what she`s saying. And all I`m saying, Jane, is I`m just not buying it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Yes. OK.

KAVINOKY: I think there`s more to that story.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Last night I spoke to the attorney for Zenaida Gonzalez. Let`s hear what he had to say.


JOHN MORGAN, ATTORNEY FOR ZENAIDA GONZALEZ: We`re going to be able to prove through discovery and through testimony that the Zenaida Gonzalez that she referred to was our client, Zenaida Gonzalez. She`s now saying, "Oh, it was another Zenaida Gonzalez." But in our interrogatory to her, she can look at this picture and she can simply say, yes or no, is this the Zenaida Gonzalez that was your babysitter, yes or no? And that would go a long way for us, and for Ms. Gonzalez, to put closure and perhaps put this whole thing behind her.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So Jonathan, he`s saying answer one question and you can make it all go away. Why not do that?

KASEN: No. 1, it`s a trap. The reality is we have sought to defer or to stay any of the depositions or interrogatories during the pendency of the criminal case. Judge Rodriguez denied our request as it relates to the interrogatories but granted it as it related to the deposition.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Can you say that in English? Because our viewers aren`t attorneys.

KASEN: No, no, I understand. I should slow down.


KASEN: A deposition is, in effect, testimony under oath, many times with a camera there but oftentimes with a court reporter there, so that what is being said is memorialized.

Interrogatories are questions that are what`s called propounded or extended to an individual to answer. Specifically, your name, what do you do for work, how you got involved in the case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the bottom line, you`re saying you cannot answer that question.

The reason why he says it`s the same is that she claimed initially she dropped little Caylee off at the Sawgrass Apartments and that`s where this particular Zenaida Gonzalez had filled out a form. Quick answer to that, Jonathan.

KASEN: Jane, I would say that the picture that Mr. Morgan sent to us was the same photo, to my understanding, that Detective Melich (ph) showed to my client. My client said, "That`s not the lady. The lady I`ve interacted with is 24. The plaintiff is 39. The lady I`ve interacted with is childless. This lady has four kids." There`s no connection other than a common last name and first name that many Latins have in Florida. I think more than 20.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Guys, we`ve to leave it right there. I`m so glad that you joined us, Jonathan, Pam, Darren, Jennifer, Rozzie. Jonathan, thank you so much. We will have more on the Caylee Anthony case later in this program.

Plus, the woman who gave birth to octuplets breaks her silence, and you will not believe what she is saying.



MICHAEL PHELPS, OLYMPIC MEDALIST: I think it`s hard to really, you know, to be ready for any of this. You know, to understand anything that`s going to happen, I think it`s impossible for anybody to really know the definite answer.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is Michael Phelps` swimming career up in smoke? Let`s recap and review.

You saw him on a box of Wheaties. There he is. Then you saw him on a box of Corn Flakes. And that may be the last cereal box you`ll see him on for a while. Kellogg`s has just dropped him as a pitch man after all the bad publicity, caused by this now infamous photo. USA Swimming also gave him a three-month suspension.

Joining me now is P.R. consultant and crisis manager, Fraser Seitel.

Great to see you, Fraser.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, so many people are asking how can Phelps fix his image? That`s where I have a problem. It`s like we fall in love with this image, this role model, this cardboard cutout of a human being. And then as soon as he proves himself to be a flesh-and-blood human who makes mistakes, we dump him.

Can anybody live up to the impossible expectations we are setting for these very young Olympic athletes?

SEITEL: No, it`s a very good point. And he`s a 23-year-old kid. And when they came out with their damage control, what they said is, "I`m 23, and I make mistakes." So that`s fair.

What I think he has to realize, and think has now, after two strikes against him, is that, as a swimmer, he`s got a very narrow window of fame. If he wants to collect, it`s once every four years. So it`s very dangerous now for him to make any other mistake. Therefore, he`s got to stay out of the pot, into the pool, and I think he`ll be fine.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, after a few days of silence, Phelps is finally talking about the infamous photo. Let`s listen.


PHELPS: I clearly made some bad judgments and mistakes in my life, and I can -- I think the best thing is, you know, learn from your mistakes. And I just -- that`s already what I have done and what I continue to do. And, you know, I`m going to do everything I can, you know, in the pool. And I`m already back in the water training, still deciding on a lot of things.

But I`m happy to be back in the water. And that`s a place where I feel at home and feel comfortable.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: He`s 23 years old. He made a mistake. He apologized, and yet Kellogg`s Frosted Flakes dumped him. Good idea or bad idea?

SEITEL: For Kellogg`s it was a rather easy call. His contract was up in three months. They said the integrity of the brand is important. Zero tolerance on drugs. He`s over the side.

I think the other sponsors, which are more adult-oriented, Visa, Subway, HSBC, they`ll cut him some slack. In fact, Speedo and Omega, which are kind of hip products, they`re probably secretly saying, "You know what? He`s no longer perceived as a dork." That will probably help him.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He had a squeaky clean image up until this point. And again, I`ve discussed this with you before, Fraser, but this whole notion of endorsement always struck me as odd. It doesn`t mean if you swear Speedo, you`re going to become an Olympic swimmer.

There seems to be a cynicism built into these massive endorsement deals that bestow all of these millions on these young people and then tell them to behave perfectly.

SEITEL: That`s an excellent point. The society is wacky. But what has been proven is that, if somebody uses the product, somebody wears Manolo Blahnik shoes, I will wear them. In this young man`s case, he`s got to keep squeaky clean, and he`ll be fine.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Got to go. But it`s all -- the consumer has to make smarter decisions.

Coming up, the mother of those octuplets breaks her silence. You`ve got to listen to this.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN ANCHOR: Is Casey Anthony a modern day Sam Sheppard? The doctor who was wrongly convicted of murdering his wife 50 years ago; a story that inspired the famous "Fugitive" TV series and movie? Casey`s attorneys think so. What do you think?

"ISSUES" continues right now.

Casey`s defense team now comparing her to "The Fugitive" while preparations for Casey`s memorial are under way. So much to talk about tonight.

I am back with Darren Kavinoky, criminal defense attorney as well as Jennifer Hartstein, a clinical psychologist.

You know, Darren, as they did the rounds, the defense team for Casey Anthony was saying, everybody`s saying she`s guilty. Don`t call her guilty. I don`t think a lot of people on television are saying she`s guilty.

A lot of people are reciting incriminating facts like the fact that she did not call authorities and her child was missing for a month before finally she was confronted by her mother and it was actually her mother who called 911 in that famous phone call. And that during that time, there is a lot of testimony and evidence that she was out partying.

DARREN KAVINOKY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, they are reciting those facts and all of that conduct unbecoming to a mother in order to then draw the inference that, of course, she must be guilty. And in conversations that I had with people around the water cooler, people do exactly that. They say she must be guilty because she`s done all of these things.

So what the defense is doing is reminding people that we`ve got this presumption of innocence. That it`s good to defer judgment until all of the facts are aired and all of the evidence is tested, and, frankly, that`s how our system of justice works best.

I think Jose Baez is doing a smart thing by going out there, reminding people of that. I loved the comparison to "The Fugitive." I think that`s a wise move. He shouldn`t be tipping his hand about who the one-armed man really is before it matters. That`s when you get into a court of law, not the court of public opinion.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Boy, I cannot wait for this trial to start. It is going to be a humdinger. Unfortunately, we have to wait until the end of the year or perhaps the beginning of next year.

Last night on "Larry King Live," Anthony family attorney, Brad Conway was asked about George and Cindy`s relationship with Casey. Listen to this.


BRAD CONWAY, ANTHONY FAMILY ATTORNEY: They support their daughter 100 percent and they love her. And that`s never going to change.


CONWAY: In terms of the case, it`s hard to comment on that because there`s so much evidence that has yet to come out from the state attorney`s office and from law enforcement.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jennifer Hartstein, one thing where I completely agree with the Anthony family is that everybody shouldn`t be beating up on Cindy and George for supporting their daughter. They wouldn`t be the first family that supports the defendant.

As you possibly know from looking at criminal cases, when everybody else has given up on a defendant, when all his friends have left him, it`s always the mother and father that are still there by the defendant`s side, insisting that their child is innocent. That`s what parents do.

JENNIFER HARTSTEIN, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGY: Right. It absolutely is a parent`s duty, Jane. The fact is that parents want to support their children. And who wants to believe the absolute worse of your child, they could be a murder or that they could be a rapist. They could be any of those things. So they are going to stand behind their child and support them in whatever way that they can.

And it`s no different for Casey Anthony`s parents. That`s really what they are trying to do it. It may be killing them to even have to consider that their child has done something as awful as murder. But we don`t know all of the facts. We`re still trying to know -- we have to presume innocence and her parents have to stand behind her.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I think we have to lay off on the parents, especially in light of what George has been through.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Quickly, we only have a couple seconds, Darren. What about WFTV reporting that Casey is willing to part -- this is their report, we can`t confirm it -- with more photos of her dead daughter to help pay for her defense. At the same time that they are warning people, do not take photos inside the memorial. It seems like a dual message coming out.

KAVINOKY: You know, it`s a horrible thing and a real tight rope the defense has to walk.

But look, you may be familiar with this notion in another forum. And that is you can either save your face or you can save your butt, but you can`t save them both at the same time. These are the most serious charges that a person can face. If she has got now the choice of either funding her defense or not funding her defense and perhaps going down in flames, you have got to do what you have got to do to fund the defense.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I think that`s the best way to leave it. You have got to do what you have to do.

Darren, Jennifer, thank you so much for your incredible insights. Come back soon.

Don`t forget, Nancy Grace is up next at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. She will have the very latest on the Casey Anthony case.

Turning now to the ongoing feud between actress Ashley Judd and Governor Sarah Palin; the two are polar opposites on what Ashley says is a brutal and savage practice -- the hunting of bears and wolves from helicopters. Judd was enlisted for a public service announcement by the animal protection organization called Defenders of Wildlife to draw attention to what is going on in Alaska.


ASHLEY JUDD, ACTRESS: Palin even proposed a $150 bounty for the severed foreleg of each killed wolf. And now she is encouraging even more aerial killing.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: As for governor Palin, her office says, quote, "Our predator control programs are scientific and successful at protecting vulnerable wildlife."

I want to get to the bottom of this right away. Joining me: Rodger Schlickeisen, president of Defenders of Wildlife Action Fund. Roger, thanks for coming on tonight.

RODGER SCHLICKEISEN, DEFENDERS OF WILDLIFE ACTION FUND: Thank you Jane. I`m pleased to be here with you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How many wolves have already been gunned down in Alaska? And what`s your response to this claim by Sarah Palin that this slaughter is scientifically grounded and protects vulnerable wildlife? How do you protect wildlife by killing it?

SCHLICKEISEN: That`s a good question, Jane. We have been wondering that too. The fact is that scientists and wildlife experts have been after Sarah Palin to stop this unscientific program for years and she frankly just won`t listen. In fact, now she`s trying to expand it.

You ask how many she`s trying to kill, well, this year, this winter, which we are in right now, she`s planning to expand the number of wolves killed, if she can, by four to five times the numbers that were killed last year. She wants to kill over 600 wolves this year in an area of Alaska that`s about 50,000 --


SCHLICKEISEN: Yes, over 600 wolves, I think it`s 606.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How is that going to affect the population -- the wolf population?

SCHLICKEISEN: Well, that`s a good question that the scientists raise. Her spin may be that this is a scientific program, but I can tell you that there are hundreds of scientists the world over who have repeatedly gone to Alaska and gone to Sarah Palin and told her that she has no scientific basis for this program, and in fact they could be doing severe ecological damage with the program.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. This next video speaks for itself. I want to warn you, it is graphic. Although the real process is a heck of a lot more gruesome than this video shows. You might want to have your kids leave the room for this one. Here it is.


JUDD: Using a low-flying plane, they kill in winter when there is no chance for the wolves to escape. Riddled with gunshots, biting at their backs in agony, they die a brutal death.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I have two dogs. Aren`t wolves cousins of dogs? I mean, imagine if we went over some aerial area and we`re starting to shoot dogs, the uproar that that would create. But these are just like dogs?

SCHLICKEISEN: They are. In fact all domestic dogs are ancestors of wolves -- they all evolved from dogs -- dogs all evolved from wolves. You`re absolutely right about that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, what`s really funny about this is that Sarah Palin describes your organization as an extreme fringe group. That was kind of funny because I went on your site and I noticed you have the "Reader`s Digest" has named you America`s best wildlife charity. You don`t look like a radical extremist to me. Tell us just a tad about your organization.

SCHLICKEISEN: Well, Defenders of Wildlife and Defenders Action Fund together have about a million supporters across the country. We have been in existence for a long, long, long time. And I think probably with a million supporters, we probably have about three or four times as many people supporting us that voted for Sarah Palin for governor. It`s a little strange to have her calling us extreme.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Governor Palin`s policy has the support of the Alaska Outdoor Council, an organization that supports hunting. Here`s what they are saying in response to the PSA. "Our professional wildlife Alaska biologists who manage predator prey are the most experienced in their field. Governor Palin is not `casting aside science` as Ms. Judd says in the PSA." Your reaction to that comment?

SCHLICKEISEN: That`s foolish. Their Alaska Outdoor Council, of course, are the ones that promoting this because they`re very interested in increasing the number of moose and caribou, artificially increasing the number of moose and caribou.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And don`t they want to do that so they can shoot them? In other words --

SCHLICKEISEN: So they can shoot them, yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s not like they want to save the moose and caribou. They just want to be able to shoot them instead of having the wolves eat them.

SCHLICKEISEN: And they want wealthy out-of-state hunters to be able fly in and shoot them, too. But again back to the science, we have hundreds of scientists that are --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`ve mentioned that.

SCHLICKEISEN: And they`ve never responded to that, including the American Society of Mammalogists, which is the oldest, most respected and largest scientific body that studies mammals in the world.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Got to leave it right there.

Rodger, if folks want to check out what you`re doing, I can tell you they can go to And I do get all your e-mails and I love getting them. Please keep sending them along.

Thank you so much, roger. We are just out of time.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Animals can`t speak for themselves so we have to speak for them.

The controversy surrounding the birth of eight babies to a single mom who already had six at home is up next. She`s finally speaking to the media, but apparently her father is not.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you want to say anything?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is your daughter home?

SULEMAN: She`s not home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s not here?

SULEMAN: Absolutely not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She left the hospital.

SULEMAN: I have no idea.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have no idea?

SULEMAN: No idea.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where else could she go if she`s not here?

SULEMAN: You tell me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Aren`t you curious of where she might be?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re not curious where she is?

SULEMAN: Have a nice day, sir.



VELE-MITCHELL: The woman who gave birth to octuplets after she had six children tells her side of the story. Do not miss the bizarre highlights.

First, "Top of the Block" tonight.

By now we`ve all heard the Christian Bale freak-out from the set of his "Terminator" movie. We`ve also heard the dance remix. Bale has now publicly apologized for that embarrassing incident. He was on KROQ`s "Kevin and Bean Show" in L.A. this morning and here is what he said.


CHRISTIAN BALE, ACTOR: I was out of order beyond belief. I was way out of order. I acted like a punk. I regret that.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Bale went on to say that he`s still trying to get used to the movie star thing and that he hopes his lapse in judgment doesn`t overshadow all the hard work everybody else put into the movie. As for the poor cinematographer who was the target of the outburst, Bale said they worked it out and have worked together every day since that incident.

I think it`s really good to see a celebrity taking responsibility for once.

Turning now to the controversy surrounding a California mother of six who gave birth to octuplets just 11 days ago; she is now a mother of 14, and she is speaking out.

Nadya Suleman has sparked a national debate. Why did she continue to seek fertilization treatment after already having half a dozen kids? Just hours ago the Medical Board of California announced an investigation into whether the fertility clinic was in violation of medical standards.

Now the single mom is talking even more, and she`s taking more heat over a disputed claim that she was from a, quote, "dysfunctional family." Who isn`t? She says she wanted so many kids because she was an only child. She defended herself to NBC`s Ann Curry.


NADYA SULEMAN, OCTUPLETS` MOM: I`m providing myself to my children. I`m loving them unconditionally, accepting them unconditionally. Everything I do. I will stop my life for them and be present for them and hold them and be with them. And how many parents do that? I`m sure there are many that do, but many don`t and that`s unfortunate and that`s selfish.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lots of material there. She even takes a shot at other parents. The entire interview airs Monday on "Today" and Tuesday on "Dateline."

Time to bring in the shrink: Jennifer Hartstein, clinical psychologist. We`re also delighted to have Brooke Anderson, co-host of HLN`s "Showbiz Tonight," thrilled to have you Brooke. And Pete Demetriou, veteran reporter and newsman for KFWB News 980 in Los Angeles.

Pete, what is the latest thing on this wacky case?

PETE DEMETRIOU, REPORTER, KFWB NEWS 980: The latest thing on this is that people simply cannot believe what is coming out of this woman`s mouth. There are contradictions right and left. I want to be a parent. I want to give myself to my kids completely.

Well, love doesn`t pay the rent, love doesn`t buy diapers, doesn`t buy food. And her saying that she was never on welfare but she`s receiving $160,000 in state disability payments for injuries suffered while she was a worker at a state mental hospital. There`s a disconnect here.

Something is wrong in what she`s saying and people are saying there are some real problems as far as the facts about this woman`s life and what it`s all about. And there`s a selfishness that some people are saying, I just want to have children because I was deprived. Yes, well, one, two, six, 14? There`s a lack of maturity here.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Something tells me there`s more to the story than meets the eye. I`m curious personally as to how she can afford. Because I have talked to friends who had in vitro procedures and it`s hugely expensive. That`s something I think that might be coming out in the next couple of days, how does she afford doing all these tests?

Let me ask you this question, Brooke. What`s fascinating to me is that this really has become a litmus test of our society`s ever changing attitudes as medical technology advances. In the old days and we have done, both of us, so many of these stories, it would have just been a miracle of birth and all sunshine and roses. And it`s immediately transformed into a story of that ethical considerations or the lack thereof.

BROOKE ANDERSON, SHOWBIZ TONIGHT: Right. Initially, I think, Jane, everybody was celebrating the relatively healthy birth of these octuplets. And then it has shifted now that everyone has found out that she does have six other children all under the age of 7. Everyone conceived by in vitro fertilization.

And you know, when I watched that interview with NBC`s Ann Curry, I thought, she seems sweet, she seems bright. Wants to go to college in the fall for her counseling degree. She seems like she wants to be a good mother; is optimistic about things.

Here I am, Jane, a few months from having my first child --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Congratulations.

ANDERSON: -- trying to prepare financially -- thank you very much -- trying to prepare financially and be responsible about this, and spiritually and emotionally. And it`s one child. You have to think, how will these children be impacted?

Thank God they were born relatively healthy. But what kind of developmental problems will they have in the future? How will this impact them?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Everything she says, for example, I will be able to support them because I`m going back to school in the fall to get a master`s degree. It takes a while to get a master`s degree and she`s not even going back until the fall. Her parents recently declared bankruptcy. She`s living at home with mom and dad.

Anyway, don`t get me started.

Let`s take a look at another clip from Nadya Suleman`s interview with NBC`s Ann Curry.


ANN CURRY, NBC ANCHOR: Did he explain to you the risks of a multiple birth?

N. SULEMAN: All of them, absolutely. It was all of them

CURRY: You didn`t want just one or two embryos?

N. SULEMAN: Of course not. I wanted them all transferred. Those are my children and that`s what was available and I used them. I took a risk. It`s a gamble; it always is.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask you, Jennifer Hartstein. She says she`s working out some issues because she was an only child and she didn`t feel that she got the kind of attention she wanted. Is it healthy to work out your childhood traumas in this particular fashion?

HARTSTEIN: Absolutely not. People look to children for unconditional love. To a certain degree it is. At the same time you`re now just transferring your issues potentially onto your children. And she wants to be able to provide attention and give attention.

But if she really wants to have special time with each children; it`s going to take her two weeks to have one full day with each child. It`s almost impossible for her to do. You can`t do that. It`s really transferring problems to the next generation.

She needs to go therapy to figure that out so she can figure out how she`s going to really manage 14 children on her own.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Pete, what about this ethics investigation?

DEMETRIOU: The ethics investigation would deal with the idea of the fertility clinic on whether the doctors knew about her previous situation. And someone should have said -- I hate to say it, Jane -- where were the adults here? Where was the mature person to say, hold on. She`s got six kids. She wants to have more. You`re implanting how many embryos? Somebody should have said full stop.

There is a problem here and I think the state of California may very well look to the idea of saying perhaps the time for the state to step in and start putting some restrictions and controls and reassessment.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brooke`s got the last word. Is she going to end up on a reality show or not? We only have a couple of seconds.

ANDERSON: You know there`s word that she was shopping her story for millions. But a spokesperson for her says there was no monetary motivation and that she`s looking at all of her options. And who knows, Jane, if she does get a reality show or a book deal. Will there be a backlash from the public?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, stay right there. We`re going to have more on this outrageous interview with Octu-mom when we come back in just a moment.


E. SULEMAN: To be honest with you, because of all -- it`s too much. I mean, I understand you know it`s your job, you need do it but give us a break. Too much is no good.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re back talking about the most-talked about mom on the planet right now. Nadya Suleman has finally spoken out but she hasn`t exactly cleared the air by doing so. I think that she`s raised more questions.

Brooke, what about the reality show angle? We were just talking about that before the break. There is a reality show called "Johnny and Kate Plus Eight" about a couple with eight kids. Are those in the biz looking at her as a possible reality show star?

ANDERSON: Absolutely, Jane, she is getting so many offers. And a spokesperson for her said she`s the most wanted mom out there right now. And she`s getting these offers pouring in. She`s got a publicist. But right now she is just looking at all of the opportunities and they claim that there is no monetary incentive to having all of these children. That she just wants do what`s best for them.

TV show, book deal, who knows what we will see, more interviews down the road. But as you say there are still more questions to be answered. I don`t think she has cleared the air entirely.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, she`s kind of like the Mona Lisa, Pete. She has that mysterious smile but you know something`s going on behind it.

DEMETRIOUS: Well, not only that. It`s the idea that somebody is peeling the layers of the onion on this person when we`re talking not only about her individual character but the financial background her family, her own financial background and everything else like that.

My only question is somewhere down the line is someone going to file a legal action in court or is children family services going to look at this entire proceeding and say what wait a minute, we have a fitness hearing on her capability of actually being a parent able to provide and sustain a family for these now 14 kids.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We will give Jennifer last word. Would it be healthy for these kids to be put into a reality show environment? Would it turn them into freaks?

HARTSTEIN: I would think that it is going to be unhealthy. They`re going to have a hard enough time getting adjusted just being in this kind of environment. Putting them on TV and under the lights is only going to make it harder for them to have any sort of normalcy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. As we leave I want to leave you all with a thought. Each day in the third world 16,000 children die from hunger or malnutrition. That`s one child every 5.4 seconds. That is what we should be thinking about also; the world cannot sustain people having that many children. I leave you with that to think about.

Pete, Jennifer, Brooke, thanks so much for your participation in this crazy story. I`m sure we`re going to be back talking about it again.

I`ll be on "Showbiz Tonight" to talk more about this truly, bizarre and controversial story. That`s tonight at 11:00 p.m. Eastern.

I am Jane Velez-Mitchell and you are watching "ISSUES" on HLN.

MIKE GALANOS, HLN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, I`m Mike Galanos. Here`s your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

Olympic gold medalist Michael Phelps has been suspended from USA Swimming for three months. He also lost his endorsement from Kellogg. Now, it`s all over that photo in the tabloids -- there you see it showing him taking a hit from a bong at a frat party. Phelps says his suspension is fair.

The FDA says a Georgia peanut company sent out shipments even though they tested positive for salmonella and didn`t test them further to try and prove they were safe. This happened as far as back to 2007. Peanut Corporation of America is linked to the massive peanut butter recall. Eight people have died and more than 500 have gotten sick. Some products actually went to four states for low-income student lunch programs. The company`s denying the wrongdoing.

And Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg plans to return to work on the court in less than three weeks. The 70-year-old justice had surgery for pancreatic cancer on Thursday.

That`s a look at the news for now. I`m Mike Galanos.