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ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL
Mother Opens Up about Missing Girl; Do Inconsistency Stories Hide Truth about Haleigh?; Rapist Who Imprisoned Daughter on Trial
Aired March 17, 2009 - 19:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, a hair-raising twist in the frantic search for Haleigh Cummings. Crystal Sheffield, Haleigh`s mother, joins us tonight to talk about her new foundation and a possible custody battle over Haleigh`s little brother, all this as police say Ron`s new wife Misty has changed her story several times. Why all the inconsistencies? Could Misty hold the secret to finding this precious missing child?
Plus outrage in Austria. Day two in the horrifying incest trial leaves jurors traumatized. More harrowing testimony about the man who now tries to hide his face as he`s led into court. He kept his daughter locked in a basement bunker for decades while repeatedly raping her, farthing seven children with her and then allegedly letting one die.
Then the ugly rumor about whether Lee Anthony is, in fact, the father of little Caylee is finally put to rest. You will not believe the stunning court documents examined just hours ago involving DNA tests for Lee, Casey and little Caylee.
And shocking new details emerge in the deadly case of football stars lost at sea. A Coast Guard report says the lone survivor talked of one man getting unruly, fighting with the others and throwing punches. We`ll look at the psychological and physical torment of their ordeal.
Plus, outrageous new octo-drama. Frantic preparations made to make Nadya Suleman`s new home safe for her babies` arrival. We`ll bring you the very latest on the octo-saga.
ISSUES starts now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The shocking answer to the paternity question that has long surrounded the Caylee Anthony murder case. Who is the little girl`s father? Newly-released documents reveal stunning DNA information. I will have the very latest details on that breaking story.
But we begin tonight with Haleigh Cummings` distraught mother, Crystal Sheffield. She is speaking out right here on ISSUES.
Her ex, Haleigh`s father, Ron Cummings, appeared on "NANCY GRACE" last night where Nancy asked the very tough questions, as she should. He didn`t throw any punches. In fact, he threw a few jabs at Crystal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST, "NANCY GRACE": They seem to suggest that the only reason the mother lost custody was because she missed some court dates. Is that true?
RON CUMMINGS, FATHER OF HALEIGH CUMMINGS: Absolutely not. She missed her first court date. The judge gave her wah-wah story another try. She showed up, lawyered up. And the truth is I was a better parent. Still am. Better provider.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Last week, Cummings also accused Crystal of making up a false lead in the case, namely that their 4-year-old, Ronald Jr., saw a black man in black take little Haleigh. What on earth would a distraught mother have to gain by leading the investigation astray?
Crystal`s response to all of this is moments away. She`s going to set the record straight for us tonight.
Meantime, Misty Croslin Cummings, Ron`s new bride and the last person to see Haleigh before she went missing, has spent more than 30 hours talking to investigators, but cops still have no clear timeline. How is that possible? Why is Misty hiding key information? We will examine the very day little Haleigh went missing.
Joining me now, my expert panel: Rebecca Rose Woodland, criminal defense attorney; Brian Russell, forensic psychologist and attorney; and Don Clark, former FBI special agent charge.
But first my very special guest, Haleigh`s mom, Crystal Sheffield, joins us by phone, as does her attorney, Kim McCazio (ph).
Crystal, I would like to start with Haleigh Bug, the foundation you just started to find your precious child. You have set up headquarters in town and painted it purple which was Haleigh`s favorite color. I understand you`ve also hired a private investigator.
Crystal, tell us all about this new strategy you have for finding your daughter.
CRYSTAL SHEFFIELD, MOTHER OF HALEIGH CUMMINGS: It`s just something where everybody can come. I mean, anybody that wants to do any donations, I mean, call. I mean, it`s just a place for me to be where I don`t have to be out in a tent or, you know, because I`ve got my 11-month-old baby. I mean, it`s just a safer place, and it`s just something I wanted to do for Haleigh.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And why did you hire a private eye?
SHEFFIELD: I didn`t. I didn`t hire him.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. All right. I -- that was a report and we want to set the record straight.
Crystal, I also want to give you an opportunity to set the record straight about something else. On "The Today Show," Ron claims you made up the story that you made Ron Jr. saw Haleigh`s abductor. Let`s listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEREDITH VIEIRA, CO-HOST, NBC`S "THE TODAY SHOW": Your 4-year-old son, and the fact that he said that somebody, a man dressed in black, had taken Haleigh out of the trailer that night she disappeared. Did she tell that to either one of you? Misty, you were there at the time. Did he say anything to you at the time?
MISTY CROSLIN, WIFE OF RON CUMMINGS: No.
CUMMINGS: Me either. I think this is some of the garbage that Geraldo and Crystal, the mother, has made up. But I`m just going to leave that at that.
VIEIRA: So you don`t even believe that Ronald Jr. said this at all?
CUMMINGS: I don`t know. I wasn`t at home; I was at work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Crystal, that`s kind of harsh on Ron`s part. What is your response to this claim that you made this up?
SHEFFIELD: Well, I know for a fact my son told me that. I`m not lying. I did not ask him no questions.
The following weekend after Haleigh went missing I asked him no questions. As soon as I picked him up he said, "Mommy, I want to find my sissy. A man in black took her," and that is what he told me.
I swear I`m not lying. You can say I`m making it up if you want to. That`s fine. I -- I have no reason to lie. I want my daughter back, and that`s what my son told me. If it`s true or not, so be it. I mean, he told me that, and that`s my baby, so...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Crystal, just to understand, first we heard that he said a man in black took little Haleigh. Then apparently, we heard a couple of days later that he said a black man in black. Did his story change or did -- was it just an error in reporting?
SHEFFIELD: Well, at first he did say it was a man dressed in black. And then I asked him the following -- the two weeks later when I got him again I asked him about it. But I didn`t want to question him about it, because I know it`s hard on him enough. And I asked him about it and I was, like, "What about the black -- the person dressed in black." And he said it was a black man dressed in black, and he had squeaky shoes. And the I`m not lying. I have no reason to lie.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s why we have you on tonight, first of all because we want to do everything we can to find your precious child and put her face out there so that somebody, anyone out there who has anyone any kind of clue, please, we`re begging you, come forward.
Now let`s talk about Misty Croslin, Ron`s new wife. Was the last person, of course, to see little Haleigh the night she went missing, but her story has been full of holes. She was asked on "The Today Show" Friday about all the inconsistencies. Let`s listen to what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VIEIRA: Why were there -- help me out, Misty, where were there inconsistencies? Why did you say one thing one time and one time the other? One thing the other?
CROSLIN: Um -- I don`t know.
VIEIRA: But you know you did do that?
VIEIRA: And you`re not sure why.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s pretty amazing -- Kim McCazio (ph), you`re Crystal Sheffield`s attorney -- that she doesn`t know why she`s telling inconsistent stories, for example, when did she first call 911? We initially heard something about, hey, Ron was at work and she called 911 and he rushed in at the tail end of the conversation, because we hear him on that call. But now Ron is saying he got home, saw Misty standing there. The child was missing, and he told her to call 911. What do you make of it?
KIM MCCAZIO (PH), ATTORNEY FOR CRYSTAL SHEFFIELD: Well, I think that all of the inconsistent statements are making it very difficult for the police investigation to go forward, and I wish we could clear up these statements. I don`t know why they are being made.
I don`t know if Misty is just a naive child who`s trying to make up stories that may make her look better or her husband, or if she has something to hide. And I guess the investigation will -- will figure that out.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Quick question, Crystal. What about this potential custody battle between you and Ron over your little boy, Ronald Jr.?
SHEFFIELD: I -- I don`t feel safe with him. I mean, my daughter is missing. He has a 17-year-old that he is married to now. She`s a child. Obviously, she`s -- I mean, she`s been out doing drugs. He`s caught her with drug dealers, and I don`t feel safe with him there.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to say, first of all, that I have no independent confirmation of that, and we don`t have any information or confirmation of that at all. A lot of stories circulating. A lot of point, counterpoint, charge, countercharge.
But one thing I know for sure is that Crystal Sheffield is suffering tonight.
And Crystal, I want to thank you so much for being on. And I wish you the very best of luck with your new foundation and the Haleigh Bug house. And, of course, that`s little Haleigh`s nickname. And we just pray that she`s brought home alive and safe. Thank you, Crystal.
All right. As always, our thoughts are with that little child. And we`re going move now onto my expert panel, fantastic group here.
You`ve been listening in. Don Clark, what do you make of it? The fact that there are all these inconsistencies that this Misty doesn`t have any explanation for, and she just blankly says, "Yes, I`ve told different stories and I have no explanation"?
DON CLARK, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE: Yes. In one way, Jane, it`s a -- it`s a bad thing that these inconsistencies are going on. But from a police investigation, they ought to be really cataloging these things, really working at them and really trying to find out why one counters the other, other than the fact that she said that.
They`ve got to keep in mind here that everybody is a suspect in this case, Jane. Everybody is a suspect. And clearly, the people close to the environment and the situation, particularly those in the house, they have to be suspects in this case. I don`t understand how anybody could be released from this, and particularly when you have all of these inconsistencies, just flowing back and forth.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Rebecca Rose Woodland, if everyone is a suspect, and she`s the one who`s telling the inconsistent stories, is there any way that they can bring her in and arrest her on some kind of very lesser charge just to put pressure her to try to get the story straight?
REBECCA ROSE WOODLAND, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Not yet. I don`t think so. As far as what we know so far, Jane, there`s not enough here. I think what the authorities are doing is trying to question her, interrogate her. I`m sure there`s certain pressure they`re putting on her while they`re interrogating her.
If you remember last week she refused to speak to one of the detectives and said, "I won`t speak to him. He made me nervous." Probably because he was putting pressure on her to explain the story. What`s the actual story here, Jane? That`s what we want to know.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, we`ve got to find out. Everybody, stick around. Lots more to cover in the desperate search for this precious 5- year-old girl.
And I want to hear from you. Do you think the inconsistent stories Ron`s new wife has given police require further scrutiny? Give me a call: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297.
Then just miles away, explosive new developments in the Casey Anthony case. New discovery documents just released answer the question of whether Lee Anthony is, in fact, the father of little Caylee, an ugly rumor that`s been out there. We will have the answer in a moment.
But first, as we enter the fifth week in the search for Haleigh Cummings, a reminder of what Misty Croslin had to say just days after her disappearance.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROSLIN: At 3 a.m. in the morning I got up and -- I got up because I had to use the bathroom, but I didn`t make it to the bathroom. I seen the kitchen light on. And I walked in the kitchen, and the back door was wide open. And I didn`t notice about Haleigh until I seen the back door open. And then I go in the room and she`s gone. And that`s all I know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know who the father of -- of Caylee...
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: I do not know 100 percent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t have to answer that question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lee Anthony dodged the question, but will he have to answer it now? Breaking news on that story coming right up.
But first Ron Cummings` new wife, Misty Croslin, has a big problem keeping her story straight. Is that hampering the search for little Haleigh?
Back with my expert panel, and the phone lines are lighting up. Charles in Missouri, your question or thought, sir.
CALLER: Yes, Jane. I want to thank you for taking my call. I watch your show. I watch it every night.
CALLER: What I`m -- I`ve been watching the interviews with Misty and I can`t help but go back to the time of the Susan Smith case. You`ve got two women fighting over the affections of a man. It was earlier reported that Haleigh was daddy`s little girl, and I just wondered if there`s anything to that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Don Clark, you were familiar with that case. What do you make of it?
CLARK: I`ll tell you what. He makes a good point there. I mean, in particular, you saw the same thing with Susan Smith back in those days and the same type of activities there. So it is something to think about.
But, you know, Jane, I really do think that at some point that the police may -- might have to look at some obstruction of justice charges here, because she is telling stories that leads one direction, telling stories that leads another direction, and they`re all inconsistent with each other. And I really do think that that can be listed as obstruction, and maybe they`ll move forward after that charge.
CLARK: Jane, can I jump in?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Sure.
CLARK: I agree with Don and I disagree. On the one hand, I think he`s right. I think that she may be obstructing.
On the other hand I`m not seeing Susan Smith-like behavior. What I`m seeing is some possible confabulation, and that`s where people try to fill in details that they really don`t remember. And I think that she may not be 100 percent sure what exactly did happen that night. I don`t know this, obviously. I haven`t tested her blood, but imagine if she were under the influence of some substance that night. And she didn`t...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wouldn`t they have tested her?
CLARK: They may not have. They may not have taken toxicology on her, because it really might not be 100 percent relevant yet. But if she were under the influence of something, she may not want to admit that. Just think about, for example, if she were underage drinking or using some illegal drug. She might not want to admit, but that would explain some of the inconsistencies.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Well, as you said, Misty Croslin has spent more than 30 hours being interrogated by cops. They don`t have a clear idea of what happened that day.
Here`s what we do know. At about 5 p.m. an air-conditioning repair man visited the home. At 7 p.m., Haleigh`s great-Grandma, Inez Sykes, came by with clean clothes. And she says she saw Haleigh with Misty.
And last night on "NANCY GRACE," Ron and his mom Teresa Neves gave differing opinions of whether or not a cousin stopped by. Listen closely.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST, "NANCY GRACE": There was a repairman there. The cousin was there who police have investigated. Who else?
TERESA NEVES, MOTHER OF RON CUMMINGS: My mother came by that night.
GRACE: For what reason?
CUMMINGS: My cousin wasn`t there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did you hear, very, very softly Ron says, "My cousin wasn`t there"?
So they can`t agree over even whether a cousin was there. And now investigative journalist Art Harris is saying Misty put the kids to bed at 8 p.m., washed their blankets and then went to sleep herself.
How come -- and I`ll put this to Rebecca Rose Woodland. Investigators can`t get a clear handle on a timeline, given that it looks like she`s claiming she was at the trailer home all night long. I mean, it`s not a mansion. It`s a trailer home. How can you not get a timeline on what somebody was doing inside a trailer home?
WOODLAND: I`m very -- that`s what`s disturbing about this case, is that how big can a trailer home be? She can probably put her both arms out and feel both sides. The baby went to sleep without blankets. She was washing the blankets, came back. She claims she put the blanket on the baby, then went to sleep herself, but she doesn`t even remember when that was.
Well, you know how long wash takes. You wash, you dry and put it in the washing machine and the dryer. You know, this isn`t that difficult to figure out. So there must be issues and so many inconsistencies that we don`t have a timeline.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sharon in Virginia, your question or thought, ma`am?
CALLER: Yes, I just want to tell you that it`s not coincidental, that the person who took Haleigh, you know, had to have known that that screen door had to be propped open.
And Ron said that there were no cinder blocks in his backyard. So they would have had to brought a cinder block with them, prop that door open and get in and out.
And also, where would these kids sleep when Ronald and Misty are, like, making love. I mean, surely they`re not sleeping in the bed with mom and now their new stepmom.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`m going to throw that one to the psychologist, Brian Russell. I don`t want to touch that one.
BRIAN RUSSELL, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, look, I`ve said many times that these things very, very, very rarely happen randomly. Polly Klaas is an example of an exception. But I think that somebody knew that that little girl was in there, poorly supervised, in a place that was likely to be unlocked, with no father there to defend the home, and it`s probably somebody who knew him or her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I want to thank my fantastic panel for their wonderful insights. Please come back.
Moving on to a deeply disturbing story in the spotlight tonight, a father accused of repeatedly raping his daughter and keeping her prisoner for decades. The details are absolutely chilling.
Then the most-asked and ugliest question about the Caylee Anthony murder case. People ask it. Is Lee Anthony the father of the little girl? I`ve got the answer in just moments. Stay right there.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: In the spotlight tonight, a monster who locked his daughter in a basement dungeon for two decades. Today marks day two of harrowing testimony in the Austrian trial of Josef Fritzl. He tried to hide his face as he was dragged into court, but there was no escaping his daughter`s nightmarish story.
She testified via video about her 24 years imprisoned in the secret dungeon where her father raped her thousands of times, fathering seven children. He allegedly let one of them die.
The horrific details included forcing her to watch and re-enact porn videos. He forced three of the kids to live with her in the booby-trapped basement while allowing three others to live upstairs.
This is beyond nightmarish. Helping me with this, Dr. Dale Archer, clinical psychologist.
Dale, what strikes me is so much, but especially his double life. A sinister rapist in the secret basement and then an upstanding family man upstairs. What`s your analysis of this personification of evil?
DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I mean, obviously, the guy is sick, and I think that one thing we have to realize is to look back at his history and, according to sources that I`ve read, I mean, he claims that he was abused. He grew up during the Nazi time in Germany. He was there when the Russians overtook Germany and, apparently, he was abused emotionally and physically by his mother.
Now, this is not an excuse, and I think it`s very important. But what it does point out is a cycle of abuse. And when you`re an abusee, you`re more likely to become an abuser. And we have to shed light on that and help people understand.
There are two reasons why this happens. First of all, when you`re abused, you take this as normal. This becomes normal for you. When you`re a child and you grow up like this, this is your norm. And as you get older, you start perpetrating the exact same things that happened to you, even though in this case he did it a hundred times worse.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask you this question, Dr. Dale.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The wife, I do not get this, the denial of the wife who is now divorcing him. She claims she had no idea about any of this, even though he brought three kids from the basement upstairs and told her, well, the girl ran away, the daughter, when she was 18 to join a cult and she`s had these kids and dropped them off here on the doorstep. It boggles my mind.
Didn`t the kid say, "No. We`ve been downstairs in the basement all these years"?
ARCHER: Yes. I mean, obviously, it boggles my mind, too, Jane. It`s absolutely incredulous to believe that she did not know what was going on. And why she didn`t take action is just beyond me.
But very often in these cases, you know, these individuals are enablers and they basically allowed this to take place. I see it all the time when there`s abuse that goes on. And the mom allows it to happen and actually takes the side of the dad who`s doing the abusing against the child. And, unfortunately, this really affects them growing up, and because they`re seen as a liar as well as being abused, it makes it very, very difficult to treat.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean, look at this elaborate dungeon. Just putting food down there so people could survive. Why are you going downstairs with food year after year, day after day, week after week? None of this makes any sense.
ARCHER: Yes, you have a pet monster down there? I mean, what`s going on.
Absolutely right. And she had to know what was going on. I think she was an enabler. I think she knew, and I think she was complicit in all of this. And now she`s saying, "Well, I want a divorce."
You know, but the same way he`s saying, "I want psychiatrists to study my brain because I don`t want this ever to happen again." Hello? Why didn`t you do that 25 years ago before you started hurting every single person in your family?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what? It`s beyond comprehension.
Dale, sit tight. You will be joining me again in a bit. The prosecution has released a witness list in the case against Casey Anthony, and her brother Lee is it. We`ve got the answer to the shocking question you`ve all been asking about him next.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The ugly rumor about whether Lee Anthony is in fact the father of little Caylee is finally put to rest. You will not believe the stunning court documents examined just hours ago involving DNA tests for Lee, Casey and little Caylee.
Plus, outrageous new octo-drama, frantic preparations made to make Nadya Suleman`s new home safe for her babies` arrival. We`ll bring you the very latest on this octo-saga.
More on octo-mom`s new octo-drama in just moments.
First, I want to get straight to the stunning and I mean stunning breaking news in the Caylee Anthony murder case. For months, you have been asking this question.
Now finally we have your answer for you. Recently released DNA discovery reveals new information about little Caylee`s father. So is it Casey`s brother, Lee? Thanks to expert analysis from the FBI we can now put that ugly rumor to rest. They say absolutely no.
Now here is the technical jargon for conspiracy buffs who may demand proof. "Based on the STR typing results the DNA obtained from specimen Q18-1 (Caylee Anthony) could not have originated from a biological offspring of the individual represented by specimen K9 (Lee Anthony)."
There it is please, no more questions about that.
Even though Lee is not the father his attorney is still fighting tooth and nail to prevent him from having to answer the question about who the dad really is. In a civil suit brought by Zenaida "Zanny" Gonzalez, why is he still avoiding that particular question?
A lot to get to tonight. I`m back with my fabulous panel: Rebecca Rose Woodland, a criminal defense attorney; Brian Russell an attorney and forensic psychologist; and joining the discussion, Dr. Bill Manion, pathologist and assistant medical examiner; along with Rozzie Franco, reporter at WFLA 540 AM.
Dr. Manion, we need you first please explain the DNA mumbo-jumbo in a way that we non-experts can understand about why Lee is not the dad.
DR. MANION, PATHOLOGIST AND ASSISTANT MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, always pride myself on being able to explain things in a simple manner and in fact I Googled this topic before I came on. And there is a sample of paternity test at a Web site, www.paternityusa.com. And if people want to look at that they can actually see a paternity test that was done.
But basically, when we do a paternity test, we look at genes from the mom and dad. And these genes have two all alleles in each gene. And for instance, this would be a typical gene we would test. In this gene the mom has a 15 and 17 and the child has a 16 and 17.
Now we know that this is the daughter of the mom and therefore, that 17 must have come from the mom. Where did the 16 come from? Well, there we would look at the potential father and see if he`s capable of donating a 16 allele. And in this example, yes, there is a 16 over here and this is just an example of one gene that would be tested.
Remember, when they do these tests they test about 15 genes and are very, very careful and come up with a probability to a 99.9 percent...
MANION: ...probability or they very quickly can rule out...
MANION: ... the putative father -- potential father.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you just brought me back to high school and for some reason logarithms comes to mind which is something I flunked. But I think we get your point, thank you for that, doctor.
Listen, breaking news just in, remember there was this big hearing that was set for tomorrow, well, we`re hearing now it has been canceled. A deal has apparently been reached, Rebecca Rose Woodland, between the lawyers for Zenaida Gonzalez and Brad Conway, the lawyer for Cindy and George. They are going to be deposed now, Cindy and George April 9th, but with limitations, no media present.
Remember they had gone to court to fight them having to give a deposition saying that George had recently attempted suicide and he was just too, too fragile to do this. What do you make of this deal?
REBECCA ROSE WOODLAND, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know what? At some point they either had to put up or shut up. They had to show documentation about his psychology, about all his distress. How was he treating? Where was he treating and when was he treating with and what was he treating?
So at this point, I guess the attorneys either stopped his treatment, which is possible. His treatment is under control or his condition is under control well enough that he can proceed. Whatever the path was, the attorneys either have decided with their clients to go forward or they`ve decided that there was not enough to go to the hearing tomorrow to ask the judge to prevent it.
So they came to a deal together, not involving the court which is wonderful, actually.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, with the way the leaks are going in this case, we`ll probably hear what they said even though the media hasn`t been allowed.
While Lee Anthony did answer most of the questions in his civil deposition, he did not respond to two.
The first was whether Casey is capable of killing Caylee and the second one was about the father of little Caylee. Listen to Lee and his lawyers skip the question at the deposition.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know who the father of -- of Caylee...
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: I do not know with 100 percent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objections. Don`t answer that question.
L. ANTHONY: Ok.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Russell, as psychologist and an attorney you`re best qualified to answer. Why is he so adamant about not answering that question given that we now know he is not the father? That ugly rumor is just false.
Hello? We can`t hear him. So guess what? I`m going to toss it back to Rebecca for that.
WOODLAND: Ok. Why? You know, the reality is, is there relevance to that question in this civil deposition with Zenaida Gonzalez? The relevance may be in the criminal -- absolutely in the criminal case. But in this case, with this issue about Zenaida Gonzalez, what does it matter who the father of, unfortunately the now we know deceased child is.
Really, there is no relevance in this case, if I were Lee`s attorney, I would object also. I think the main issue, though, is going to go into the criminal case, who is the father? Is he that boyfriend years ago where there was a paternity case? No one knows where it is.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, we`re not going to know. It`s a can of worms.
WOODLAND: It is Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen, Rozzie Franco, I want to ask you about other breaking news. A state`s witness list just released a whole bunch of people on it. What do you know about that?
ROZZIE FRANCO, WFLA 540AM, ORLANDO, FLORIDA: Well, I do know that there are a number of people on it including people at the nursing home where Caylee was seen in that video where Cindy actually had her, but more -- other than the witness list, I talked to John Morgan today who is actually lead lawyer for Zenaida Gonzalez and he says he`s going to be a permanent fixture right now because he`s going to be asking Lee. And he believes that the judge will let him ask him who the father is.
He believes if he can find the father then he can clear his client.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I don`t know if I necessarily get the connection between clearing his client and finding out who Caylee`s father is, but I don`t doubt you that he`s going to be all over it.
Here is the witness list. It includes and -- I`d like to know when we have Dr. Russell back, oh, good.
Dr. Russell, this is for you. Cindy, George, Lee, Cindy`s mom, Kio Marie Cruz, Casey`s childhood friend who said that they used to hang out at the location where the remains were found and they even buried pets there.
What`s really fascinating is that on the prosecution witness list is Casey`s maternal grandmother. She`s been subpoenaed. She reportedly sent Cindy, Casey`s mom, emails suggesting Casey was lying and involved in Caylee`s disappearance.
So it`s a lot of Casey`s family that`s being called by the prosecution.
DR. BRIAN RUSSELL PH.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST & ATTORNEY: Yes. And I think that they`ve got a lot of questions that they want to ask about the stories that Casey told different people. And not just the ones that we know of publicly, but what was she saying before the whole case became public?
I think what they`re trying to show is that there was a web of deceit, that she was trying to weave amongst her own family members before we all even became aware of it publicly.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Rebecca, Cindy and George are very loyal to their daughter. If they take the stand and they`re supposed to be a prosecution witness and they`re not cooperative, what happens then?
WOODLAND: Jane first, they may not be cooperative, but they are under oath. So what the prosecution needs to get at is facts, statements, facts, what happened, when did it happen and what did she say and where did she say it?
If they`re uncooperative well, they can be very aggressive and ask the judge to treat them as...
WOODLAND: ... you know uncooperative witnesses.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ve got to get to this very important question. Dr. Bill Manion, Dr. Michael Baden who is a famous forensic expert married to defense attorney Linda Kenny Baden may have slipped. He told Geraldo that they found chloroform in little Caylee`s hair which would be huge for the prosecution because there was chloroform in Casey`s trunk and somebody using Casey`s computer Googled chloroform.
What do you make of that kind of slip?
MANION: Well, was the chloroform used to knock the child out and suffocate her or is the chloroform merely used to put the child to sleep while the mom went out to party? I don`t make anything of the chloroform, really.
RUSSELL: But even though it was just a sedative though, that`s your aggravated child abuse. Even if she tried to sedate her with it.
WOODLAND: Yes, but that`s not -- murder in the first degree.
RUSSELL: But it may have been an accidental death.
WOODLAND: Right. But not murder in the first degree in Florida...
RUSSELL: Right it wasn`t pre-meditated exact -- there is your felony murder though.
WOODLAND: ...which could be punishable under...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second. She Googled chloroform on her computer before the child disappears. To me, that`s connecting the dots to intentional murder.
WOODLAND: Not necessarily.
MANION: Well, no. Many -- many physicians, scientists gave their children barbiturates, chloroform in the 50s and 60s. It was known that this was a type of baby sitting that that would be done and occasionally there would be an accidental overdose and death. So it`s not uncommon.
RUSSELL: But keep in mind, if she committed aggravated child abuse, though, that`s a felony that can precipitate a felony murder.
MANION: I see. All right and what...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s bad news, if it`s true. All right. Thank you so much for your insights, panel. Please come back.
It may finally be time for Nadya Suleman to put the mom in octo-mom as two of her babies get ready to come home. But is she ready? Give me a holler and weigh in, 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297. Taking your calls.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Octo-mom, Nadya Suleman may soon welcome her babies to her new baby-proof pad. Her house is ready. Is she ready?
Your calls in just a moment, but first, "Top of the Block, tonight.
New details in the case of the football stars lost at sea -- A just- released Coast Guard report reveals stunning information about their fate. Word of punches flying, punches flying just hours after their boat capsized.
The lone survivor Nick Schuyler says one man freaked out, threw off his life vest and then disappeared. Another was unruly and threw punches as hopes of rescue faded. By morning, only one man remained alive. I cannot imagine the psychological and physical torment of this ordeal.
Our hearts go out to the families of these four men, one of whom survived.
That is tonight`s "Top of the Block."
Now the latest in the land of octo mom where two of Nadya Suleman`s babies are expected to come home from the hospital any minute now. Frantic preparations for the preemies have been under way for almost a week. It`s a race against the clock to make the half-million dollar crib safe. A celebrity baby-proofing company, that`s right, they exist, has installed 43 safety latches and a dozen door locks in the home on Madonna Lane.
But before any baby is released, hospital inspectors have to give the go ahead. And we`d heard originally that that would mean more anxious waiting. But right now we`ve got breaking news, radar online reporting two of the babies are expected to arrive at Suleman`s new home in La Habra momentarily. So that`s a big development.
Of course, octo mom retreated to Knottsberry Farm and to Disneyland with the six older kids over the weekend. My question was the Magic Kingdom the last escape from reality for the single mother of 14? I want to know what you think about this. Give me a holler.
First to my expert panel: Dr. Dale Archer, clinical psychiatrist joins me again; along with Dr. Judy Kuriansky, clinical psychologist and author and Kim Serafin, senior editor of "In Touch Weekly."
Kim, we got this breaking news just in. The babies are expected to arrive any moment now. This is a huge development, what octo mom had wanted from the start.
KIM SERAFIN, SENIOR EDITOR, "IN TOUCH WEEKLY": Exactly. We had heard yesterday that it was going to happen but then apparently Kaiser Permanente Medical officials came, inspected the house and didn`t think it was ready. We even knew that the gas company needed to come and that CO2 monitors needed to be installed. And then even Nadya in her daily blog that she does for Radar Online had said the hospital wanted to make sure that she was able to feed the kids in a certain amount of time.
But this would be big news if they do come home tonight. We know as you mentioned baby proofing has been happening and Goo Goo Busters, the company that does baby proofing to the stars, of course, they`ve done Britney Spears, Tom Cruise and celebrity and Katie Holmes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is unbelievable. There are celebrity baby proofers?
SERAFIN: Did you think she wasn`t going to go with a celebrity baby proofer? Come on. Obviously they do a good job and top of the line, certainly. So, no, they do other home, not just celebrities and they certainly do a good job. That`s why she`s gotten the best of the best and they take care of things not just for the baby, but for the older kids as well. Gates on the stairs...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Maybe they should have gone to the doctor who performed all this and baby proofed his house.
We`ve seen plenty of the outside of the new octo home and now a sneak peek at the nursery. Check this out from Radar Online.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Has it sunk in yet?
NADYA SULEMAN, OCTO MOM: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re still close?
SULEMAN: Even when the babies are home, I swear I don`t think it`s going to sink in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re going to love the house, it looks amazing.
SULEMAN: I know. I`m so, so relieved.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw the nursery today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just quickly.
SULEMAN: I can`t wait. I`m so excited. It`s a total surprise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Many of the good people who donated their time, labor and products did so out of concern for the kids, not for Nadya. I want to ask you Dr. Judy, given all this controversy, will these kids risk having to face taunting as they grow up or will people lay off these poor kids even if they can`t stand the mom.
DR. JUDY KURIANSKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Those kids are going to have a really hard time because they have started out being used to a great extent. What I`m really concerned about, Jane, is the other kids, every mother out there knows what sibling rivalry is. And those six kids who are home when the little babies, those two little infants come home, those six kids are going to have a really hard time adjusting. They don`t always say, "How wonderful that we have two new ones in our home."
Every mother knows there will be trouble and acting out and eating problems and sleeping problems with the other kids. So I`d be really worried about that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Terry, West Virginia, your question or thought?
TERRY, WEST VIRGINIA: I have a question and thought. I just want to know, no one has mentioned this doctor that performed this and I wanted to know why nobody`s questioned him or if he came on TV. And my comment was, when she talks, she talks child like and I`m just wondering if she needs psychology help.
KURIANSKY: I know. That`s very, very clever of you. I noticed that, too, and I think that is a problem.
I have seen, by the way, when I was working at the hospital many young girls who want to be mothers because they want to be mothered. Who want children to love them and who are infantilized themselves, so I agree with you. That was a very interesting perception of yours.
DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: I want to disagree about that. I think that octo mom is an entrepreneur and an opportunity, ok? Everyone is saying she`s got psychological problems and she`s depressed and she`s got this and that.
KURIANSKY: She does. She is depressed. She`s been diagnosed as depressed. How could you say that?
ARCHER: You know what? I think that she has taken this 15 minutes of fame and turned it into an absolute career.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s true, too.
ARCHER: She is getting money every time she talks. She gets money every time a picture`s taken. She`s going to have a reality show. She`s got more help for those kids than you can imagine. I absolutely do not...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Isn`t it possible that she`s an opportunist and depressed.
KURIANSKY: Thank you. Right. Both.
ARCHER: If she was depressed I think that she`s been treated for it and she`s taken this and run with it and she is going to do fine. I do not feel sorry for her.
KURIANSKY: I totally disagree with you.
She`s going to do fine?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I love it when you argue. It`s my favorite thing.
ARCHER: Look at all of the help she has. Look at all of the money she`s getting. She may have 14 kids...
KURIANSKY: It doesn`t matter.
ARCHER: ...She`s going to have probably five nannies.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Well, actually more with Angels in Waiting.
ARCHER: There you go.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Back in a second, more octo-drama here on ISSUES as you can see.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SULEMAN: I`m not a celebrity. But I`m not...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re absolutely a celebrity. You have paparazzi around you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was just cruising by. I`m on my way home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re curious to see what the house looks like and where she lives.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were in the neighborhood.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What kind of bothers you more, a little bit more are the people that drive around and pass by the driveway.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Octo-house lookie-loos. The octo-house has now become a major tourist attraction. What is wrong with people?
Sharon, North Dakota, your question or thought, ma`am?
SHARON, NORTH DAKOTA: Yes, I have a question. If the state intervenes and takes custody of these kids, what will happen to the kids and what is the cost going to be to the state for doing this, with the kids in foster care or wherever? And what is she going to have to do to obtain her children back?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, gee, Dr. Archer, you want to take a crack at that?
ARCHER: There`s no way these kids are going to be taken away. She`s got more help and more people supervising these kids than we can possibly imagine. The only way these kids are going to have problems down the road is when the paparazzi tires of this story and moves on to something else and all of this help starts to go away. But for now, these will be the best taken care of kids in America.
KURIANSKY: I don`t care how much help they have, they`re going to have psychological problems anyway with all of them in the house and all of them competing.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me ask Kim Serafin from "In Touch" this question. Angels in Waiting, they`re going to provide around the clock care for all the kids. It is estimated to cost $135,000 a month, but I`ve heard that they`re having money problems.
SERAFIN: Well, you know, Gloria Allred, Dr. Phil`s foundation stepped in. There`s a lot of people coming forward and stepping in. I don`t think she has to worry about the money problems. And honestly I don`t think the paparazzi are going to go away for a very long time. You see the circus camped out outside her house.
That`s just for the first two baby, then there`s the second two and then the third two babies coming home and then their first birthday party. And when they start to walk and then when they start to date. This will go on for a long time.
ARCHER: No, no, no.
KURIANSKY: It doesn`t matter how much you have.
ARCHER: Once they`re not cute anymore, they`re not going to be there. Once they`re not cute, the paparazzi moves on.
SERAFIN: I disagree. I think the paparazzi are going to be interested in this story for a long timing.
KURIANSKY: They`ll be watching the kids as they grow up.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m getting tired of it. I can tell you that.
ARCHER: Exactly. We`re already getting tired of her right now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re tired of octo mom, but I`m totally on the side of the kids.
Anna, New Mexico, question or thought, ma`am.
ANNA, NEW MEXICO: Oh, sorry. First, I just want to thank you for accepting my call. Based on recent reports, she`s admitted to being unemployed. So how is she being financially held responsible for these octuplets?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh it`s going to cost millions to take care of them, the hospital bills, extraordinary. The state of California might have to pick it up.
Thanks to my fabulous panel. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell. You`re watching ISSUES.