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Evidence Paints Picture of Casey Anthony as Pathological Liar; Larry Birkhead Moving on

Aired March 23, 2009 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, stunning revelations in the Casey Anthony case. It looks like Casey`s own grandmother could become the key witness against her. Testimony from the grandma says Casey`s five-fingered thieving almost left parents Cindy and George homeless. From lies about her father`s stroke to the cryptic claims about the identity of Caylee`s father, a chorus of family and friends describe Casey as a pathological liar. But does that help convict her of murder?

Then breaking developments from the Natalee Holloway case. Refusing to give up, her father`s hired an investigator who`s scouring a pond one mile from Natalee`s last known location. The private eye says he`s more confident in this lead than any he`s followed since her 2005 disappearance.

Meantime, another heart-wrenching story of a dad fighting to get his child back. In 2004, David Goldman`s wife left the country with their son and filed for divorce from Brazil. She died shortly after, and 8-year-old Sean has been living in limbo there ever since. Now Hillary Clinton is getting involved. With the White House behind him, will Goldman finally get his precious son back? I will speak to the desperate, anguished dad.

Then, Octomom, Nadya Suleman, makes a public apology to her brood`s secret biological father. It must be very sincere, since she did it in front of the cameras. I will show you this bizarre video.

Plus, twists and turns in the Anna Nicole Smith case. Larry Birkhead, father of Smith`s daughter, apparently moving on with his life as one of Hollywood`s most eligible bachelors. He was spotted canoodling at the clubs and kicking up his heels for the paparazzi. I`ll have an update.

ISSUES starts now.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Breaking news tonight in the case of Octomom, Nadya Suleman. It is a shocking -- and I mean shocking -- development that could have a profound impact on Suleman and the eight tiny babies she just recently gave birth to. I will have that breaking story in just a bit.

But first, stunning revelations tonight in the case against Casey Anthony. As the 23-year-old mother awaits trial for the murder of her daughter, Caylee, hundreds of pages of just-released evidence reveal potentially damaging allegations from Casey`s closest friends and family.

Casey`s material grandmother, Shirley Plesea, told cops that, in addition to stealing checks from Granny, her seething granddaughter stole herself $45,000 from Cindy and George, nearly causing them to lose their house.

Meanwhile, Casey`s friends are painting a picture of a young mom who was a compulsive liar. Amy Huizenga told cops Casey canceled plans abruptly because George Anthony had suffered a mini-stroke, something George confirms never happened. Total fiction. That`s not a little white lie.

But if Casey is a pathological liar, does that make her a murderer? Can the prosecution make hay with any of this.

Plus, just who is little Caylee`s father? Conflicting accounts continue to pile up. We will try to get to the bottom of this paternity nightmare.

So many issues, and we want to hear from you. Give me a holler: 1- 877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297.

But first, my fabulous expert panel: Thomas Luka, attorney for Lee Anthony; Steve Kardian, former criminal investigator; Darren Kavinoky, criminal defense attorney; Judy Kuriansky, Dr. Judy, clinical psychologist; and Jean Casarez, anchor for the legal network In Session.

Let`s start with you, Jean. Great to see you again. Tell us all about the shocking claims of Casey`s grandmother about Cindy and George almost losing their house, and then she has these shocking comments that she felt Casey should have gotten beaten up in jail so she`d finally tell the truth.

JEAN CASAREZ, ANCHOR, IN SESSION: Thank you, Jane, so much. Shirley Plesea is the mother of Cindy Anthony. She is the grandmother of Casey Anthony. She spoke to investigators August of 2008, and very insightful comments of what she and Cindy had gone through.

First of all, she said that Casey has stolen so much money from her mother, Cindy, and from their family that Cindy literally had to go into her own 401(k) plan to pay it back. That they almost lost the house.

She also said that, in relation to herself, that Casey would go in and would steal checks from her and sign them to herself. Notably, $54 from the public supermarket for Caylee`s second birthday party and also about $354 to pay a cell phone bill.

She also said, when investigators asked her, "What can we do so Casey can help us?"

She said, "You know, she`ll push you so far. She might have to get physically beat up in jail before she`ll say anything."

And last but not least, she said the last words she ever said to Casey Anthony, her own granddaughter, were "I love you, but I just don`t like what you do."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my gosh. Wow. This is -- this is quite shocking because it is a member of Casey Anthony`s own family, her own grandma.

Now, Cindy Anthony`s frantic 911 call from July contained a key piece of information that is now being corroborated, as you hear, by friends and family, that Casey Anthony was a thief. Let`s listen.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, what did the person do that you need arrested?



CINDY ANTHONY: For stealing an auto and stealing money.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Casey`s grandma once again told police not only did Casey steal from her, forging checks, but Casey stole from her parents the total, quote, "about $45,000."

Dr. Judy Kuriansky, is this just about money? Or is there hostility underneath this kind of behavior toward one`s parents and grandparents?

DR. JUDY KURIANSKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, there certainly is a lot of anger there. And this shows that, in fact, something is amiss in this family when we know that parents and grandparents usually stand by their family members, even if to the rest of us they seem like they may be guilty of something. And they protest, and they say they`re such a good person and condemn something.

But when they are that angry, as it sounds like happens in this case, and particularly money -- I have to say, I`ve seen this happen before. When money starts to play a role in feeling like you`ve been hoodwinked, then sometimes that honesty comes out besides anything of trying to support a family member.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Darren Kavinoky, could you imagine this trial getting under way with Casey`s own grandmother as the star prosecution witness? That would be truly historic in a negative way.

DARREN KAVINOKY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I`m sure the prosecution would love that, but I have so many problems with this kind of evidence. I don`t even know where to begin.

First of all, Casey Anthony is charged with murder. She`s not charged with bank robbery or embezzlement or some kind of theft crime. So the idea that she would have engaged in these acts of thefts should be irrelevant.

And this is also one of my problems. And we`ve discussed this before, Jane. Where are the attorneys seeking a gag order in this case?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Let me go back a second. You`re saying it should be irrelevant, but to me, Jean Casarez, this is very much to the point of the case. This is a woman who did not report her own child missing for a month until her own family confronts her.

Given the fact that she apparently -- or allegedly stole 45 grand from her own parents, why would they believe anything? Why weren`t they more quickly suspicious of the fact that she wasn`t producing her grandchild day after day, week after week?

CASAREZ: And this money allowed her to go and party and do those things and the life she wanted to lead. And I think that`s going to be one of the major motives for prosecutors in this case.

KURIANSKY: And I agree with you, Jane, and I agree with you, Darren, that this starts to look like a profile. After a while, you`ve put lying together in one situation, stealing money in another, and you get one dysfunctional picture that can fit in a way that you might not be happy about.

KAVINOKY: Well, look, I`ll absolutely agree that there is dysfunction afoot in this family, but that`s a far cry from saying that, because she stole this money, therefore, she killed her daughter.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, but Darren, what about what Jean Casarez said, that she used the money to go out partying, which was part of what prosecutors could argue was her motive for killing the child, that she didn`t want the child? We know she tried to give the child away to a friend who couldn`t have children of her own, and her mother nixed that. So again, couldn`t that paint a portrait of somebody who wanted the money to go out partying and didn`t want a child?

KAVINOKY: Well, that`s exactly what the prosecutors are going to be arguing in terms of the admissibility of this kind of character evidence. But the question is ultimately whether we`re going to have a little mini- trial on all of these issues. It`s a -- it`s a huge legal issue to unravel.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thomas Luka, you represent Lee Anthony. What is this doing to this poor family? We had some solidarity, as we saw at the memorial service for Caylee with Cindy, George, and Lee. And now with Cindy`s own mom, the grandmother, coming out, that we`re reading about this for the first time. She said it a while back. This has got to be devastating.

THOMAS LUKA, ATTORNEY FOR LEE ANTHONY: It is devastating, Jane. It`s actually tearing -- literally tearing this family apart.

And in this situation, as Darren pointed out, this is a very circumstantial case. And every statement is important and is important in this case. And turning one family member against another, there is no worst tragedy that could compound this particular one.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. But who`s doing the turning against each other? Isn`t it Casey, in the end of the day, when she`s the one who`s stealing the money and telling the lies?

LUKA: Well, if that is, in fact, true then, yes, she is tearing the family apart. But the family is being torn apart nonetheless. Doesn`t really matter who`s doing it.

KURIANSKY: It`s very telling when somebody in the family comes out and says that they -- that their family member has done something like this. To me, it`s extremely damning and really reveals a lot, and is very relevant psychologically, whether or not there`s a legal part of that case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`ve got so much more to cover. Everybody sit tight. Lots of incriminating testimony to analyze. All of this evidence suggests Casey Anthony is a sociopath, perhaps, but does that mean she`s a killer? 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297. I want to hear what you think about all this.

And breaking developments tonight in the search for Natalee Holloway. Today, a private eye hired by Holloway`s fire is in Aruba with a search dog, following what he says is his best lead yet. I will tell you what he found.

But first, while family and friends describe Casey Anthony as a liar, one person supported her the whole time, her brother, Lee. Here he is defending Casey under oath.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it your impression that night that she was making it up or did you believe that to be true?

LEE ANTHONY, BROTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: To this day, I believe everything that my sister tells me.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know who the father of Caylee...

L. ANTHONY: I do not know 100 percent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. You don`t have to answer that question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s the basis?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Basis is it`s irrelevant to the defamation suit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, the relevance is, you know, could that person have had something to do with the disappearance?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Again, if you want to go before the judge, you can go before the judge, but I`m certifying the question. Because again, I don`t think that has relevance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re instructing him not to answer?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s correct.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lee Anthony, not the father of little Caylee, may hold the key in the true identity of the little girl`s father.

Of course, I am taking your calls. Phone lines lighting up.

Sandra, Florida, your question or thought, ma`am?

CALLER: Hi, Jane. I know it`s a little late for little Caylee, but why can`t the Florida laws be changed and have these people enforce a lie detector test?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s very interesting. Steve Kardian, you`re the criminal investigator.

Steve? All right. Let`s go to Darren Kavinoky on that one.

KAVINOKY: Yes. Well, on this one, polygraph tests are only admissible in court if both the prosecution and defense stipulate to -- to their admissibility. So they are still used from time to time.


KAVINOKY: Generally -- generally speaking, it`s -- the problem relates to the reliability of that evidence.

LUKA: Exactly. It`s not yet admissible in Florida courts because there`s been no uniform polygraph tests that have been acceptable by all parties and the state legislature.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ve talked about these rumors flowing about the identity of Caylee`s father. Casey`s friend, Melina Calabrese, told investigators two stories about little Caylee`s dad. At first, Casey said Melina the father was Jesse Grund. Then her story changed.

Quote, "It was shortly after her and Jesse broke up in May 2006. She explained to me that it had been a gentleman named Josh." When the detective pressed for details about Josh, Melina said Casey told her he was basically a one-night stand from Georgia.

Later in the conversation, the detective asked if Casey ever mentioned what happened to Josh. The response was, quote, "Josh passed away in a car accident shortly after little Caylee`s second birthday."

Now what`s so shocking about this, it`s very similar to another story about a possible father, Jesus Ortiz, an old classmate of Casey`s who did actually die in a car accident. The Ortiz family claims Jesus never told them about any possible granddaughter.

Dr. Judy, why all of this mystery and secrecy surrounding the father?

KURIANSKY: She`s living in a fantasy land in a lot of different ways. This is a young woman who`s not grounded in reality. And she`s lost in all her lies about all those men and all the other people who were involved with her little girl`s disappearance.

And Darren, I have to disagree with you. All these little pieces get put together, and to me they do -- they smell really nasty in terms of what, possibly, this girl could have done.

KAVINOKY: Dr. Judy, wait, wait. I agree, Dr. Judy, that all of this can look and smell really nasty to you, but that`s a far cry from what we`ve got to deal with in a court of law, rather than your opinions, which get to be formed in the court of public opinion.


KAVINOKY: The fact is that we`re all relying on a bunch of material that we don`t know the jurors will ever get to hear, and this sort of smells to me like a big smear campaign.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. I`ve got to go to Jesse in Georgia.

CALLER: I wanted to know what is the most she could be charged with and what`s the least she could be charged with?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, she`s already charged, Jean Casarez.

CASAREZ: Right. This is a first-degree murder case. It`s a capital murder case. So life in prison, life day to day, no possibility of parole. The prosecution can have two theories. One, premeditation. The other is felony murder, the commission of a felony, which would be aggravated child abuse and during the commission of that felony, a killing occurs.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. One of the most shocking lies to come out of all this evidence, Casey canceled a trip to Jacksonville with a friend and Caylee, using the excuse that her father had a stroke.

The friend, Amy Huizenga, told authorities, quote, "I text messaged her at about 6 to make sure she was awake. She texted me back she was on the way to the hospital with her dad and would let me know. I finally heard back from her that her dad had a mini-stroke."

Guess what? George later confirmed this never happened. And Steve Kardian, this was on June 13, three days before authorities believe little Caylee was killed. What do you make of it?

STEVE KARDIAN, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: And it`s just one of a long line of deceptive practices that she has done over a period of time that law enforcement is going to focus on and possibly prosecutors are going to use against her.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. It`s -- to me, it`s just beyond comprehension.

Dr. Judy, I think that there`s some hostility there when you fantasize that your own dad had a stroke.

KURIANSKY: Absolutely. But there`s anger in all the family. It`s beyond anger, Jane. This is made-up stories that she`s living in. The pathological lying just fits together with a lot of what you called a psychopath and a drama queen. I`ll add that onto it, as well.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Speaking of drama queens, bounty hunter Leonard Padilla wants to buy the land where little Caylee`s remains were found back in December. He made an offer of 50 grand on this piece of land, told the "Orlando Sentinel" he hopes to make a Caylee memorial on the site.

The property owner is asking for $89,000, so you could say Leonard Padilla low-balled them with a 50 grand offer.

An attorney for the homeowners association says this community absolutely does not want a permanent memorial there.

You know, what do you make of this, Steve Kardian? Do you think this guy is out for publicity or money or is he just obsessed with this case?

KARDIAN: In following the case in the beginning, I think that he is out for publicity, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And so it`s worth it, 50 grand, for him to buy this plot, even though the neighbors don`t want that? I mean, why shouldn`t he give money to a search, for example, to find Haleigh Cummings, the little girl who is missing 70 miles away.

Thomas Luka, wouldn`t that be better use of the money?

LUKA: I agree. I think trying to buy this land is incredibly bad taste. It`s going to not only ruin the -- not only be a constant reminder to the Anthonys of this tragedy, but the entire neighborhood. There`s just no reason for it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How does the Anthony family feel about Leonard Padilla?

LUKA: They are not happy with him in any way, shape -- any way or form. He has been, from the beginning, a total publicity hound. He has not looked after the best interest of Caylee, Casey, or the Anthony family. He`s only been out for, they believe, himself.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to thank my excellent panel. And please, all of you, come back soon.

Switching gears to another tragedy: the death of Anna Nicole Smith. Her ex and father of her daughter, Larry Birkhead, seems to have moved on with his life. He is one of Hollywood`s hottest bachelors. Caught on tape, locking lips at a nightclub. But could he be dragged into the conspiracy surrounding Anna Nicole`s death?

And a stunning development tonight in the Octomom story. The swarms of paparazzi, the least of Octomom`s problems. A bombshell. Real major breaking news to come in a minute.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Our spotlight tonight, shocking developments in the death of Anna Nicole Smith. RadarOnline just published these stunning photos, alleging indicted psychiatrist and so-called friend Khristina Eroshevich is caught up in a cocaine scandal. Radar alleges that Eroshevich is, quote, "snorting white powder with many more lines chopped and waiting on a nearby mirror," end quote. Eroshevich is accused of conspiring to supply the former "Playboy" playmate with drugs.

If these pictures are true, how does that impact the conspiracy case? We have reached out to the doctor to get her side of the story but have not heard back as of yet.

In the meantime, Larry Birkhead, father of Smith`s daughter, seems to be moving on with his life, you might say. TMZ spotted Birkhead canoodling at the nightclubs. Making out is another way of putting it. He even fired back quips as the paparazzi buzzed him with questions.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Larry, do you think you could be a suspect? Do you think you`ll be a suspect, bro? Are you worried about getting in trouble, as well? Have any lawyers contacted you, bro?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Birkhead, not a suspect in the Anna Nicole Smith drug case. In fact, he reportedly valiantly tried to keep drugs away from her.

I want to bring in my good friend, Harvey Levin, executive producer of TMZ.

Harvey, put this video that TMZ shot of Larry Birkhead into context. He seems like he`s having a grand old time.

HARVEY LEVIN, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, TMZ: He was having a great time, Jane. He was out at the Rainbow Room on the Sunset Strip. And I don`t know how many women were around this guy just encircling him. But he found one that he really liked, and I should quickly add it is either a woman who was inside the crew or a band member from Motley Crue. We couldn`t tell which. But he was definitely making out with her or the band member. It was definitely her.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Despite all these arrests of the two doctors and Howard K. Stern, he`s not a suspect. He`s in very good spirits.

LEVIN: Yes. I mean, look, Larry Birkhead has nothing to do with this investigation. He`s dealing with, you know, raising Dannielynn, his own career. And he`s having a good time. I mean, he was -- I`ve got to tell you. He`s really having a good time, Jane. I mean, he is -- he is partying way more than you and way more than me. I guarantee it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, I know you guys at TMZ always have so much going on. What`s the latest? What you got cooking for us?

LEVIN: Well, this is such a great story. So, you know, we`re doing a lot of stuff in Washington, D.C., now, because we`re trying to show people what the personalities are behind all of these congressmen and senators.

So there`s this congressman, Aaron Shock, who`s 27 years old. He`s a freshman from Illinois. So we found him about a week and a half ago, and we walked up to him, and we said, "Hey, if there was an ab contest between you or Barack Obama, who would win?" And it was just like a fun question.

Turns out we get this picture today, Jane. This guy looks like he came out of "Men`s Fitness" magazine. It is so funny. So everybody is now doing the story. I mean, we put this thing up. And over the last couple of days, everybody has been doing this. So Aaron Shock is now like officially the Brody Jenner...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my gosh. And what an angle. What an angle.

LEVIN: Well, you know...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think we do have to leave it right there. But what a way to leave it. All right, Harvey. Thank you so much. Talk to you soon.

In 2004, David Goldman`s wife left with their son for Brazil. After filing for divorce, she died in Brazil. Now Goldman is fighting to get his son back. A horrible story. I`m going to speak to the dad in a moment.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: A heart-wrenching story of a dad fighting to get his child back. David Goldman`s wife left the country with their son and suddenly filed for divorce from Brazil. She died shortly after and 8-year- old Sean has been in limbo there ever since. I will speak to the desperate anguished father.

Then octo-mom, Nadya Suleman, makes a public apology to her brood`s secret biological father. It must be very sincere since she did it right in front of the cameras. I will show you this bizarre video.

The heart-wrenching story of a dad`s fighting to get his child back from Brazil. I will speak to that anguished father in just moments.

But first, very hopeful developments in the Natalee Holloway case as a new search for her body began earlier today. This is big stuff. Natalee`s father is refusing to give up the hunt for his beloved daughter. So he hired a tracker dog specialist to scour a pond one mile from Natalee`s last-known location.

The private eye has searched for Holloway eight times before, but he says he`s more confident in this particular lead than any he has followed since her disappearance almost four years ago. Can you believe it`s been almost four years?

That lead comes from a witness who said he saw chief suspect Joran Vander Sloot coming out of this pond with only one sneaker on. This witness has reportedly passed a polygraph test. Holloway disappeared while on a class trip to Aruba.

Vander Sloot, the prime suspect was arrested multiple times but he was never formally charged. That even though he was once caught on tape saying Natalee died in his arms. Natalee`s body has never been found.

Joining me right now, Ashleigh Banfield, anchor for the Legal Network "In Session" and Julia Renfro, editor-in-chief of "Aruba Today."

Julia, what is the very latest on this particular search that went on today? And how big a pond are we talking about here?

All right, Ashleigh, I`m going to start out with you on that one.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, ANCHOR "IN SESSION": Ok. What I know about it is that it`s a retention pond. And that there seems to be a delay in searching the retention pond because they were waiting for it to dry up so that they could actually search the muck down below.

But what I find a little odd is that it`s taken four years before a witness came out. At least last year, the witness came out and this year there will be a search. It seems awfully strange with a story of this caliber.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, it sure does.

Julia Renfro, you`re the editor-in-chief of "Aruba Today" you`ve been on this story from the very beginning. Why this search now? Hasn`t this pond been searched before? And this is a different pond, I assume, than the pond that was drained early on in the investigation.

(ON THE PHONE) JULIA RENFRO, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, ARUBA TODAY: Yes, this is a different pond completely. But it`s still close by the area where she was last seen.

VELEZ-MITCHEL: Have they searched this one before?

RENFRO: Yes, it has been searched before. Actually, last year, Tim Miller was here with a boat called the "Persistence" and they searched the area after this man came forward.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So what -- how could they expect to find something now given that they`ve already searched this once? I mean, this island has been so thoroughly searched. Do you -- do you think, Julia -- you`ve been in on this case from the beginning.

Is this practical? As much as we`d like to believe that there`s a chance, or is this somebody really clinging on to a hope?

RENFRO: I believe that Dave Holloway really hopes to find out what happened to his daughter. But in the first question, no, I do not believe this will bear anything on the case. There you go.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The only remaining suspect in this case, Joran Vander Sloot, was arrested multiple times, never formally charged. He was caught on tape however, in an undercover sting, allegedly talking about how Natalee collapsed on the beach and he called a friend to dump her body at sea. Listen.


JORAN VANDER SLOOT, SUSPECT: He looked and said, "Yes, she`s not alive anymore. Dead.

PATRICK: How did he do that?

VANDER SLOOT: He was bent over her and looked. That wasn`t good.

PATRICK: Of course, I understand. But she could have been in a coma.

VANDER SLOOT: That`s possible, too, huh. That`s very possible.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ashleigh, we just heard Joran in a secret video essentially admit to standing over Natalee`s seemingly dead body. His lawyer Joe Tacopina says his client is not responsible and this tape is not a confession. Do you agree?

BANFIELD: Well, Joe Tacopina is a very, very good defense attorney. But he has had clients who`ve lost before, too. I think that`s remarkably unsettling, that little tape. And I think that that`s something that the officials in Aruba will probably look at very carefully.

And just to add, by the way, one more thing. Since a witness actually came forward to point to the retention pond and this report that Joran was walking out of that pond missing a sneaker, they may actually be able to give a little more attention that perhaps it wasn`t given before.

For instance the mucky bud of it that`s dried up. So maybe the search there before wasn`t as intense as it could be now.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And, of course, Joran Vander Sloot famously lost his shoes on that night. Julia Renfro, what happened to the Calpo brothers who were also seen with her that night, are they totally? Are they still on the island?

RENFRO: They`re still on the island, but they are no longer suspects in this case. They were actually released in December of 2007, along with Joran. But Joran was reinstated as a suspect after that tape that we just heard there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. It`s -- it`s really perplexing story and a mystery that we do not have the answer to. And the last I hear, Joran is back in the Netherlands, I believe, after having a bit of a scandal involving allegedly trying to lure Thai women to the Netherlands as quote, unquote, "dancers" but possibly something else.

I want to thank both of my guests and please come back soon and obviously we`ll stay on top of the Natalee Holloway case.

Turning now to another story of a heart-broken dad, who refuses to give up; David Goldman fighting to bring his eight-year-old son home to New Jersey. Sean Goldman kidnapped by his own mother when she took him to her native Brazil in 2004.

David devastated when his wife called with two shocking demands. First a divorce, second, even more devastating, she wanted sole custody of their son. Well, David said no. He held his ground for four long years. And then last August when she died, David`s battle became even more complicated. The woman`s Brazilian husband decided to keep the boy.

But David is fighting back with the help of Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. She has appealed to the government of Brazil and now for this anguished dad, it is an unbearable waiting game.

David is here tonight along with his attorney, Patricia Apy to tell us more. David, thanks for joining us.

DAVID GOLDMAN, FIGHTING FOR CUSTODY OF 8 YEAR-OLD SON: Thanks. Thanks for having me on Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You got to see your son for the first time in four years just last month. Tell us about that visit and why couldn`t you just take him home with you?

GOLDMAN: I wish I could. My visit with Sean was beautiful, our bond is still strong. He was calling me dad, telling me he loved me. As the witnesses that were there said, that if they were just walking by and they saw Sean and I together, they would have thought that it was something that we`ve been doing for years.


GOLDMAN: And I couldn`t leave with him because of these rulings by the Brazilian courts at that point.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now David, you were a guest on "Larry King Live" earlier this month and so was a spokesman for your late wife`s family who happens to be your uncle. And Larry asked him about your son`s relationship with the man who married your wife. Can`t make this up. Take a listen.


HELVECIO RIBEIRO, SPOKESMAN FOR MOTHER`S FAMILY: He`s not his biological father, but he also calls him daddy. Sean knows that, you know, Mr. Goldman is his biological father.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: David, why is this guy so intent on keeping your son?

GOLDMAN: I have no idea. But it`s not his son. He`s my son. And I`ve been trying to bring him home for over four years. And we were still legally married in America. And she somehow was able to marry this man in Brazil ten months before she passed away.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So I understand that President Obama was meeting with the Brazilian President Da Silva earlier this month and they spoke about this case, although privately. And we don`t know what was said.

At the same time, there were protests going on outside the White House. And we`re going to show you those protests in a second. Also, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is publicly in your corner. She has appealed to the government of Brazil.

So why is none of this working? And let me give that one to your attorney.

PATRICIA APY, DAVID GOLDMAN`S ATTORNEY: Well, the case is back in the Federal Court of Brazil. And of course, we`re hopeful that for once and for all they`ll do the right thing.

I think it is actually working. I think for the first time, this case is before the Brazilian government with accountability.

It`s one thing to do something in secret when nobody in the world is watching. But it`s clear now that there is everyone watching, particularly in both countries, and, again, having the opportunity to have your listeners and others have an opportunity to know what`s going on, they can`t do it in secret anymore.

And we`re expecting that they`re going to do the right thing and send Sean home.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And who are all these people protesting on your behalf David?

GOLDMAN: Some family members, friends, people who just know the truth and what is right and the right for a parent to be with their child and raise their own child. And it`s an affront to human decency which is happening here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How is this impacting your child? I mean, to be the center of this tug of war, David, what is it doing to him psychologically? Is this man trying to poison him against you?

GOLDMAN: I can only imagine.

APY: You know, one of the things, Jane, that you have to realize is that the process is placing pressure on this child as well. This child was being tortured basically on a daily basis to indicate that he wants to stay in Brazil. He doesn`t want to come home. Even against that huge pressure, he has a bond with his father that is obvious to everyone who looks at it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, well, I`m looking at the list of the things that this man who has your son has allegedly done.

He married your wife, who was not legally divorced. He tried to take David`s name off of Sean`s birth certificate allegedly. He never informed you when Sean`s mother died. And now he`s keeping the boy against international law.

I mean, why isn`t the government of Brazil immediately filing charges against this guy, David?

GOLDMAN: That`s an excellent question. And I mean, I can -- the list goes on. They went to the Supreme Court, took the case records, because I was in an appeal still fighting for my son to come home with Bruna. And this man took the records from the Supreme Court of Brazilia and filed responsive pleadings on her behalf and never even told the court that she passed away.


GOLDMAN: Let alone me.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well listen, we`re going to stay on top of your story. We really hope and pray you get your son back soon. Come back when you do.

GOLDMAN: Thank you.

APY: Thank you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: David, Patricia, thanks.

An update on the Chris Brown assault case; mystery hearing canceled. I`ll have the very latest.

Plus, octo-circus continues. Nadya Suleman brings home two more octuplets but in a stunning late breaking development, octo-mom makes a shocking decision that could jeopardize her ability to care for her fourteen kids. The latest in a second. Call 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586- 7297 to sound off on octo-drama next.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Octo-mom Nadya Suleman has just made a shocking decision that could completely change everything for her 14 kids. I will tell you about these stunning developments -- new development in just a moment.

But first, "Top of the Block" tonight.

An update on the Chris Brown assault case: Brown`s famed Attorney, Mark Garagos, requested a closed-door hearing set to take place today but it was mysteriously canceled. Many speculate the hearing was going to be centered on something that could make or break this case, namely whether Rihanna would testify against Brown.

Brown is charged with felony assault stemming from the allege beating he gave Rihanna back in February. Here on ISSUES, I will have the very latest developments leading up to Chris Brown`s April 6th arraignment.

That is tonight`s "Top of the Block."

Shocking, breaking new developments tonight in the never-ending drama of octo-mom, Nadya Suleman. Octo-mom tells RadarOnline she has just fired Angels in Waiting. That is the non-profit charity organization that offered 24/7 care for her 14 children.

How the heck is she going to care for her ginormous brood now? Octo- mom says she prefers to hire her own nanny. Will Angels in Waiting now throw octo-mom under the bus? Will child services move in to take these kids?

And in another shocking twist, after bringing two more babies of her octuplets home to their baby-proof pad this weekend, the mother of 14 finally revealing some information about the secret biological dad of all of the children. She talked to Radar about his reaction to her latest pregnancy and even apologized to him.


NADYA SULEMAN, MOTHER OF OCTUPLETS: He just couldn`t talk. He couldn`t even seem to utter a word. He was angry at the doctor, I think, like everyone else.

Doesn`t that doctor know you have five children already? I told him I`m sorry. I`m sorry for all of this mess and I hope he isn`t scared that it will come out because it won`t. As far as I`m concerned, I will never disclose who he is.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: What a pose there.

Apparently he, whoever he is, should learn to count. She had six children before the octos. This week it`s homecoming for the second set of babies; brings the total number of at-home preemies to four. This latest arrival drastically calmer than the complete chaos that unraveled last Tuesday.

But that doesn`t mean the event had no eruptions of its own; an explosive exchange between octo-mom and octo-grandma. The most intense altercation to date caught on tape. You won`t believe this really nasty exchange.

As always, I`m taking your calls on all of this; the latest twist and turns. But first, to my expert panel: Ashleigh Banfield, anchor on the legal network "In Session;" plus Dr. Judy, Judy Kuriansky, noted clinical psychologist; and Mike Walters, managing editor for TMZ.

Mike, now that octo-mom`s tossed out Angels in Waiting, she may actually have to consider new offers like the one that`s coming from Vivid entertainment. Tell us about that.

MIKE WALTERS, MANAGING EDITOR, TMZ: Yes. Well, you know what, Jane? It seems like she`s taken money from everybody else, from every different directions so why not the porn industry?

They even backed off her having to take her clothes off and do some kind of pornographic film. They just said look, let`s put Vivid girls inside the house as nannies because obviously Angels in Waiting is now not going to be there which is who`s going to take of these kids. So let them come in and let us film it and we`ll still give you a $1 million in health insurance.

I don`t think it`s not bad of an idea. Do it. It`s a lot of money. She needs the money.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This story has gotten so crazy, actually. Radaronline reporting that she fired Angels in Waiting which was providing $135,000 a month worth of round-the-clock care for these kids. Is she making that much money that she could afford $135,000 in terms of nannies to pay for her own?

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, ANCHOR, "IN SESSION": I don`t know how much money she`s making, but I think she`s making a lot because if she has that kind of discretionary decision-making she clearly has money to hire nannies. Because I`ll tell you one thing, if she doesn`t have money to hire help and provide a safe environment for those kids, well then Child Protective Services has a right to come in. A safe environment is crucial. If it`s not there, she`s in trouble.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, maybe she`s just crazy and doesn`t realize the repercussions of what she`s done, Dr. Judy.

BANFIELD: I think she`s crazy.

DR. JUDY KURIANSKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: God forbid she would take an offer like that, and not just for herself, but for those kids to ever grow up thinking and knowing what their mom is doing. It is very, very suspicious. Bodies are buried there somewhere that she is firing those nannies. She is afraid that the truth will come out. That`s what it looks like.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, that there`s some secret. Oh, that`s interesting. Maybe I`m naive. I didn`t even think of that.

By now, we`ve learned octo-mom and her mom, octo-grandma, do not get along. This weekend, one of the most explosive arguments today caught on camera. Watch this.


N. SULEMAN: Oh, I don`t want to open the door now. Come inside.


ANGELA SULEMAN, NADYA`S MOTHER: You`re so disrespectful to me because you are.

N. SULEMAN: I need you to listen.

A. SULEMAN: And I will not -- I will -- I got a ride from somebody and I will never come back, lady. I will tell you that.

N. SULEMAN: Mom, you need to calm down.

She`s very self-absorbed. If she doesn`t have the attention she needs or wants from me, she`ll go off. That`s why I don`t like to surround myself with her negative energy and nor do I want her -- she`ll influence the kids negatively.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Judy, I have to go back to you on this one. What is going on with this public display of hostility between mother and grandma?

DR. KURIANSKY: Well, we could hear, Jane, the chaos that was going on with those kids back there, and this is the worst thing for them to be having -- hearing that the grandmother, their grandmother and their mother are having a falling out.

But the grandmother, I`m sure, has just had it up to here. And is very frustrated and feeling, I don`t want to be part of it. We`ve heard her say that before. This is the worst thing for the children to be around.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, gosh, Ashleigh, about 15 seconds. Your reaction to this fight

BANFIELD: She seems like one of the most intransigent and self- absorbed women I have ever laid eyes on through video and I`m not talking about the grandmother.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I agree. I think the grandmother is a voice of reason. And so she`s the one who has to play bad cop because otherwise we`re in fantasyland.


DR. KURIANSKY: That`s right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, guys, hang on. More on octo-mom and her latest media blitz. But remember she`s not a celebrity.


N. SULEMAN: I`m not a celebrity.

But I`m not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re absolutely a celebrity. You`ve got paparazzi around.




N. SULEMAN: We`re at the house. And I can`t wait, I just can`t wait to get the other four home so I won`t have to keep trekking back and forth but the other four will come home really soon. Two more soon and then the other two in maybe a couple of weeks.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Octo-mom talking to radar online. Phone lines lighting up on this one.

Karen, Illinois, question or thought, ma`am?

KAREN, ILLINOIS: A little of both, Jane.

I`m outraged that this woman has custody of all these children. The red flag should have gone at the six when she`s got -- what is it, two disabled and an autistic child of the first six. And now trying to get the other eight home.

And by the way, where are her parents? I understand her parents were in foreclosure. Did she have the heart to take her parents in the way that they took her in?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s a very good question.

Mike Walters, what do you know about all this? Particularly the Angels in Waiting development?

WALTERS: You know, I will tell you, what we`re about to get a 911 tape and I wish I had it for you right now but we`re about to get it. They called, the nanny from inside the house, called 911 on Gloria Allred from inside the house the day when the two twins came home; the first ones. So this was a brewing problem.

And I`m being told right now that basically there`s a problem because Angels in Waiting had the Web site that filled up with money for donations for the kids and they don`t just want to hand it over to Nadya Suleman.

And I`ll tell you what, Jane, you were talking before about the money and is it going to keep coming? You know what? The train wreck`s good to walk but when the train`s about to hit the wall, everyone doesn`t want to turn off of the TV.

So it`s one of those things where I hope that she can keep making money but I tell you what -- Angels of Waiting is out. So the Web site`s out, Dr. Phil`s out, Gloria Allred`s out. Everyone is out that was helping her.

And I just called Kaiser Permanente and they said, "Whoa, what are you talking about? They`re all shocked. They are not going to help either.

So this is going to be a bad situation for her if this gets hideous and she doesn`t get the help she needs.


Aurora, Virginia, your question or thought, ma`am.

AURORA, VIRGINIA: I really just have a comment. I think what frustrates me personally is that for every dollar of public assistance nonprofit organization money that is spent on her poor choices is that much less money for those responsible people who fell on hard times through no fault of their own.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree you.

We`re going to give Ashleigh Banfield the last word here.

BANFIELD: It`s just so sad to see the pictures of those little faces because they`re the victims here. And if she can`t figure out how to meet the basic needs of these kids, that`s a requirement to keep your children. And she`s under the watchful eye.

I keep wondering when she might actually decide down the line, to reveal the name of the father, which she has promised not to do because she might be able to make some money.

DR. KURIANSKY: Ashleigh, that`s so drama. Who`s the daddy? Who`s the daddy?

BANFIELD: She could make money off of that.

WALTERS: Oh, yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes exactly. She`s using that too. What a character, and let`s hope these children don`t suffer because of her character defects.

I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell and you`re watching ISSUES.