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Police Search for Sandra Cantu`s Killer; Still No Sign of Haleigh Cummings

Aired April 8, 2009 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Cops furiously hunt for the killer of 8-year-old Sandra Cantu. They question hundreds of people but have no suspects.

Meanwhile, perplexing questions surround the nearby church as cops storm in with a warrant. The pastor says he`s talked to the cops and has nothing to do with the case. Sandra`s autopsy results will take at least four weeks. Will cops get justice for her before then?

Then, earth-shattering news in the Casey Anthony case. Casey`s ex- boyfriend, Jesse Grund, makes astonishing claims about the Anthonys, while complaining Casey may have tried to pin Caylee`s murder on him.

And more bad news for Casey`s defense. The Florida bar investigating Jose Baez again. They reportedly got several complaints claiming he told private eye Dominic Casey to keep quiet if he found Caylee`s body. Could that mean the defense camp knew where the body was? We`ll have Jose Baez`s reaction to these shocking charges.

Also Haleigh Cummings has now been missing for two months. It seems cops have hit a dead end. So why do private eyes and reporters keep digging up astounding leads? I`ll sort out the inconsistencies.

Plus, she`s back. Octomom, Nadya Suleman, sets the record straight, claiming she worked double shifts -- get this -- at a psychiatric ward to pay for her fertilization treatment. And apparently, she wants to get out of the public eye. Well, here`s a tip, Nadya. Stop doing interviews. I`ll have the outrageous octo-beefing.

ISSUES starts now.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: A flurry of new developments in the gruesome murder of 8-year-old California girl Sandra Cantu. Her body found on Monday, stuffed into a piece of luggage, and tossed into an irrigation pond like it was trash.

An autopsy was performed to determine the exact cause of her horrific and obscene death. But we do not have those autopsy results just yet.

In the meantime, the hunt for her killer heats up. At least 15 search warrants have been executed. Cops are questioning hundreds of people but say they are not yet focusing in on any particular individual.


SGT. TONY SHENEMAN, TRACY POLICE SPOKESMAN: We are focusing on no specific person at this time. We are looking at a lot of people. Everyone that we`re talking to has been cooperative. And we are working very diligently to locate and identify the killer or killers of Sandra Cantu.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The frantic hunt for the killer led cops to enter, search and remove bags of evidence from a local church last night. It is only a stone`s throw from where little Sandra lived. Clover Road Baptist Church was cordoned off with crime scene tape. The pastor was interviewed. His home, in the same mobile home park as Sandra`s, was also reportedly searched. He has said he had nothing to do with the little girl`s disappearance and was only questioned because his great-granddaughter used to play with Sandra.

In fact, police say they have not identified a suspect. And again, they`re questioning hundreds of people.

Meantime, fear grips this close-knit community as they deal with the possibility that a killer -- that`s right -- a killer may be among them. Right there. And just hours ago, Sandra`s grandfather erupted in anger.


JOSE CHAVEZ, SANDRA`S GRANDFATHER: She was just happy. She just smiled all the time. It`s just sad that somebody would be so despicable to kill this little girl. I mean, that`s crazy. It`s insane. There`s a monster out there. He`s got to be -- he`s got to be apprehended. He`s got to be put away.

There`s anger. You better believe there`s anger, you know? Someone took away my little baby.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: A monster is right. I am taking your calls tonight on this sickening tragedy.

But first, my fantastic expert panel: Steve Kardian, the former criminal investigator; Darren Kavinoky, criminal defense attorney; Jean Casarez, legal correspondent for the legal network In Session. And we are honored to have with us tonight Hillary Sessions, the mother of a young woman, a beautiful young woman named Tiffany who has been missing for 20 years. She`s also executive director of Child Protection Education of America. And by phone, Kara Franklin, a reporter with KFIV 1360 AM.

Kara, what is the very latest?

KARA FRANKLIN, REPORTER, KFIV (via telephone): They`re calling her Tracy`s angel, and you should see everybody. You`re seeing people coming from around the county. They`re coming from San Francisco all the way to Sacramento. People have been coming from all over to leave cards and stuffed animals.

There`s a huge poster here with a picture of Sandra, and people have been signing it. And as they stop by, a lot are crying, a lot are just quiet. It is so sad, because the Tracy police and the FBI have been going through several trucks full of evidence while all of this is going on.

And according to the Tracy Police Department, the luggage that was found with her body inside was reported stolen from the church, that was going to be sold at a rummage sale later this weekend. And it just seems a little funny. There`s this luggage and now here it is with her body in it.

The Tracy police, of course, are saying that no one has been eliminated yet, and there are still a large number of people that are investigating in connection with the case, serving search warrants daily. They`re not telling us who they are serving those search warrants on.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it`s interesting that you`re saying that authorities are confirming that a piece of luggage was stolen. Because my understanding was it was somebody in the church who said, "Yes, somebody else was bringing this luggage in for a rummage sale, and it was stolen on the -- the very day that little Sandra disappeared." But that police wouldn`t confirm that one way or the other.

FRANKLIN: ... confirm it. What I`m looking at, my facts here, it said it was confirmed. But I might be wrong.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Well, it could be -- listen, things are changing by the moment. We`ll try to clarify that.

Now, we learned yesterday, authorities served a search warrant on the local Clover Road Baptist Church, which is less than one mile from Sandra`s home. It was also confirmed by the pastor of the church that his home was searched and some items were taken. But as rumors swirled, the Tracy Police Department came out to set the record straight.

Listen to this.


SHENEMAN: He has been interviewed, as have hundreds of others. Everyone that we speak to could be considered a person of interest. We have no specific person that we are looking at, at this time. And to say that he is being arrested is irresponsible at this time.

I also saw that I named him as a suspect -- a prime suspect this morning. I don`t remember saying that.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The pastor`s wife went even further, speaking directly to CNN affiliate KRON.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you have anything to do with Sandra`s disappearance or her death?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. Nobody we know. No. We`ve know -- we`ve been in the park 13 years. We`ve known her and her sister before they were born. So they`re just like children to our own children.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So what`s difficult here, Jean Casarez, is the police do not reveal why they went into the church and took evidence. And at this point they`ve questioned hundreds of people. What`s your insight into all of this?

JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, LEGAL NETWORK, IN SESSION: You`re right, everything is sealed. The search warrants are sealed. We know they had to have probable cause.

You know, Jane, I think one of the big challenges is going to be that suitcase. Because factually speaking, we know the body was in the suitcase. And based on that, you could probably trace it to a store.

But in today`s day and age, you can buy them at flea markets. You can buy them anywhere. Plus, it could be something someone had for a long time and not necessarily a matching set.

But what came out today that really struck me, because they`re keeping information so sealed, but they said they hadn`t found the murder weapon. And that to me speaks volumes. Because we normally can think in a sexual assault situation, there could be a strangling. If they`re searching for a murder weapon, this could be a very, very gruesome death.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Steve Kardian, given that they did the autopsy, but the autopsy results are not in yet, and they`re still doing toxicology reports. Where do you think that came out of, that they -- that they haven`t found a murder weapon? And what is the significance of that?

STEVE KARDIAN, FORMER CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Well, the significance, Jane, is that they likely know the cause of death. The toxicologic -- the tox tests take four to six weeks. But if there`s any blunt trauma whatsoever to that body, they`re going to be able to determine what that cause of death is, or was. And I suspect that they know that at this time.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So in other words, you know, they found this container. They very intelligently did not walk around and open it at the scene. They canvassed the area, photographed the area, checked for tire prints and fingerprints.

They took the luggage out -- the luggage you`re looking at right there out of the drainage ditch, took it to a safe place and opened it. And essentially what you`re saying, Steve, is that as soon as they opened it, they saw something that was probably pretty obvious that lead them to conclude this is how she died and this is the kind of murder weapon we need to look for.

KARDIAN: Yes. They did it the right way. And there was likely something at the scene that gave them the indication that a body was in there. For them to take it to the morgue and for them to, you know, diligently go through that, photograph it, and do an evidence collection at that scene.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I think one of the reasons is that the workers there said that that luggage wasn`t there when they filled up the pond a couple of weeks ago.

Investigators now focusing, as we`ve been talking about, on the luggage, in which Sandra`s remains were found. There is rampant speculation over where that bag, that bag that you`re looking at right there, that held this poor child`s body, actually came from.

Now, as we`ve been reporting, one member of the church that was searched tells KCRA that the luggage was supposed to be part of a rummage sale. But an identical piece was stolen from another church member on the very day that little Sandra disappeared. Now, we`re going to clarify this once and for all.

Police spokesman Tony Sheneman was asked about that. Listen to what he said just a little while ago.


SHENEMAN: I have heard speculation that it was stolen from the trailer park. I`ve heard speculation that it was stolen from -- by the church. I`ve heard speculation that it was part of a rummage sale from the church. I have no confirmation of any of those rumors.

We did not have a report of stolen luggage. I`ve checked. I`ve checked with the sheriff`s office, and according to them, they have no report of stolen luggage from this area either.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Darren Kavinoky, I think that was very carefully worded. We have no reports of stolen -- who`s going to report a piece of luggage that you were going to give to a rummage sale to police, if it was stolen? It doesn`t mean it didn`t happen.

DARREN KAVINOKY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It would be odd to have that reported, unless it was stolen in a different context. That is, if the item of luggage was stolen as part of some kind of a larger burglary or something along those lines.

But in this particular case, I`m glad to see that the police are being so circumspect about the kinds of comments that are being made and the evidence that`s being released to the public. A defense attorney looking back after an arrest is ultimately made, and of course, everybody would hope that an arrest of the right person would ultimately be made, and the perpetrator of this horrible crime be brought to justice.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And there`s a sense that this is going to be somebody in the area. According to the insinuations of police who said that that area, that pond, nobody knew about it. You had to live in that area to know about it.

Hold tight, panel. More on the hunt for Sandra`s killer in just a minute.

How can we protect our kids from monsters who want to prey on them? Call 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297. And let me know what you think, what your solutions are.

And then, massive developments in the Casey Anthony case. You will not believe what Casey`s ex-boyfriend is now saying. And defense attorney Jose Baez under investigation again. I`ll have the very latest.

But first, the brutal murder of Sandra Cantu rocking this small California community. Everyone itching for the killer to face justice. But cops have to find him first.


SHENEMAN: This is an unimaginable loss for any parent. It`s a very difficult loss for our community.

CHIEF JANET THIESSEN, TRACY POLICE DEPARTMENT: We will be determining the person or persons responsible for this reprehensible act, and we will bring them to justice.




SHENEMAN: The family is devastated. They want us to concentrate on finding the people who are responsible for this. And we`re optimistic that we will do so. But that -- that won`t help in relieving their devastation.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And tonight the dead girl`s uncle saying, whoever did this should face the death penalty.

Phone lines lighting up. But first, I want to go to Hillary Sessions, who is the mother of Tiffany Sessions, a beautiful 20-year-old who 20 years ago went out for a jog and never came back. What a horror.

First of all, I want to thank you for joining us, Hillary. And, you know, our hearts go out to you, and everything that you`ve endured, the unimaginable for two decades.

The mother of Sandra Cantu fainted when she found out her child had died and was discovered in that luggage, had to be rushed to the hospital. We have no idea what she must be experiencing. Can you give us a sense?

HILLARY SESSIONS, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CHILD PROTECTION EDUCATION OF AMERICA: Well, it`s a total devastation. Total loss of your entire world. It`s turned upside down.

And I hate to say this, but Mrs. Cantu really is very lucky, because she now knows what happened to her child, even though it`s probably one of the most heinous crimes that you`ve ever heard of. But at least she knows.

I think the hardest part is the not knowing, for 20 years. I can`t celebrate the fact that Tiffany is home with me. And I can`t recognize the fact that she`s passed away.

And the important thing that I want everybody to know is that there are courses that you can take your children to, and one of them is radKIDS. And that`s R-A-D-K-I-D-S. And you can empower your child to be able to get away from these perpetrators and know what to do in case somebody tries to attack them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree with you. We have to make something positive come of this, Hillary.

And again, our hearts go out to you. I can`t even imagine what you have been through for 20 years, not knowing what happened to your daughter. No trace of her.

Let`s go to the phone lines. Marsha, Pennsylvania, your question or thought, ma`am?

CALLER: Hi, Jane, I remember a case where a child went missing and was found underneath a trailer. And I was wondering when they originally searched for Sandra if they looked underneath the trailers?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, that`s an interesting question. Kara Franklin, any word on that?

FRANKLIN: I don`t think they -- I think they -- when they scoured that whole orchard, the state mobile home park, I`m assuming they went under. They went door-to-door. So I assume they went under, as well.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Jean Casarez, I know that I read that FBI agents went underneath the church, into an underground area and came up with some gloves. What do you make of that?

CASAREZ: Yes, exactly. Well, they released that information, which is interesting. But, you know, there are 100 residents in the mobile home park. They`ve interviewed all of them. And I think that they really have left no stone unturned in their search to try to find the evidence that will be probable cause for an arrest here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Steve Kardian, what do you make of the insinuation by cops that it had to be somebody who knew the area, because this pond is very remote?

KARDIAN: Yes, Jane, the predator enjoys a certain degree of comfort in being familiar with his surroundings, or in this case, the disposal area of the body. And unlike the case with Polly Klaas and Jessica Lunsford, it`s very rare -- it`s less than one-half of 1 percent -- that the abductor is a stranger, if you will.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So in other words, somebody probably in all likelihood, according to experts, somebody who is in the area, possibly even had contact with this child and had seen the child. That`s what the stats say. Is that what you`re saying?

KARDIAN: It is very likely that this predator knows this child or is familiar with the family and the surroundings. Very probable.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Karen, Maryland, your question or thought?

CALLER: Hi, Jane. I watch your show every day. I just get a little bit confused. I`m wondering, after they gathered their information at the crime scene, they said that they took the suitcase straight to the morgue. How did they know that there was a body in there to take it to the morgue? Or did they already know that?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Jean Casarez, fill us in on all of that.

CASAREZ: I don`t think we`ve heard exactly what made them believe that there was a body inside. But the whole community`s been searching. Suddenly this was found. And they determined that it was succinct enough they should take it in.

But I have to wonder whether somebody really knew that irrigation pond. Because would you throw a suitcase in a pond that is regularly drained? No. The killer did not want this suitcase to be found.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. I think that`s pretty fascinating. Stacey, California, your question or thought?

CALLER: Yes. I have a question. Have the police questioned the owner of the property, and his employees? And has the employer of the property hired any new employees recently?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And Kara Franklin, I think when we say the property, we`re talking about the actual farmland where this suitcase was found.

FRANKLIN: Yes. Well, once again, they have sent out how many search warrants. And they`re not telling us how many search warrants, but they`re sending them out daily. So I`m sure. You have to realize, the FBI and the Tracy police have been working on this 24 hours. They are nonstop on this. So they are -- like she said, no stone is unturned. They`re talking to everybody.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Darren, very briefly, the fact that she was found with clothes on, some say that that`s a sign that perhaps whatever did happen, happened quickly.

KAVINOKY: Yes. That -- that certainly is. And also very quickly, to get back to the caller`s fantastic point, that the police need to be doing everything right here, because the defense lawyer ultimately is going to be attacking chain of custody, and the integrity of the evidence collected.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Got to go. I want to thank my excellent panel. Please come back soon.

While the search for the killer of little Sandra Cantu heats up, cops in Florida seem to have hit a dead end in the search for Haleigh Cummings, now missing two months. I`ll have an update.

Then, return of Octomom. A tell-all interview. And refuting claims that she wants a reality show. You`ve got to see this next one.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: In the spotlight tonight, Haleigh Cummings now missing for two months. The desperate search almost at a standstill, as leads slow down to a mere trickle. Cops seem to have hit a dead end. And 5-year-old Haleigh`s estranged mother and father feuding like crazy.

So what`s next? And why do private eyes, bounty hunters, and reporters keep digging up really astounding leads?

Let`s go straight out to T.J. Hart, program and news director with WSKY, 97.3 FM. Joins me by phone.

T.J., what`s the very latest?

T.J. HART, PROGRAM AND NEWS DIRECTOR, WSKY: Here we are in week nine, and still no Haleigh. And I`ve got to tell you, law enforcement is busting it to try to get something going here. They`re following all kinds of leads. But the leads have slowed down to a trickle.

We`ve had all kinds of private investigators and lawyers, and their people who have been out in the field trying to turn up leads, as well. It appeared that we got somewhere about a week or two ago. But right now, we`re not getting any kind of verification. And we`re not getting any answers from law enforcement. And still, Haleigh is missing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And a startling aspect of this case, mystery man Greg. Kim Picazio, she`s the attorney for the missing child`s mother, says witnesses have claimed to her that Greg, this mystery man, was with Misty Croslin on the very night that little Haleigh vanished, on Misty`s watch. But here`s what Greg told investigative journalist Art Harris.


GREG PAGE, CLAIMS RELATIONSHIP WITH MISTY CROSLIN: I was startled to think that they actually thought I was there at the time, you know what I mean? Because -- hell -- only a fool would be at another man`s house laying up with his girlfriend, you know what I mean? I -- you know what. I mean, I -- true enough, I was with the girl, that weekend, before that, but that Monday -- that Monday, she was, of the hospital with her dad and I -- and I never got up with her, I haven`t talked to her since then.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: You can hear that full interview at Fascinating stuff. Art has extensive coverage of this case on his site.

T.J., police say they have spoken to Greg. You just heard Greg insist he wasn`t there the night little Haleigh went missing. But he does have a long arrest record involving drugs and claims Misty was doing drugs in the weekend leading up to little Haleigh`s disappearance. Now, we`ve tried...

HART: And a love fest with not only a little bit of intimacy, but also a great deal of intoxicants, including drugs.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we`ve tried repeatedly to get Misty`s side of the story. We haven`t been able to reach her. We reached her again. We have an open invitation. Misty, tell us your side.

But what are police saying about all of this?

HART: Police are saying very little. They`re still being very tight- lipped, Jane. And it appears to me that either one of two things, and it`s either end of the spectrum. One, they`re getting very close to making some kind of an announcement to bring this to closure.

Or the one we fear the most, they`re still right back at the very beginning trying to figure out the timeline with Misty Croslin who has since gone silent.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, listen, I had no idea whether any of this is true again. This is stuff that`s being dredged up by investigative journalists talking to this guy.

But if hypothetically, if Misty was, or if somebody is doing drugs, could that lead them to pass out so that they couldn`t observe somebody come in to take the child? Could it have an impact on her disappearance?

HART: Of course it could. Of course it could. If you`re knocked out from taking OxyContin or something that`s going to put you in a groggy state or an altered state, and you`re out, you`re not going to hear anything, should an intruder come into your home. You`re almost close to a coma.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, T.J. Thank you, again. Great reporting.

A jaw-dropping update in the Casey Anthony case. Defense attorney Jose Baez reportedly under investigation again. You will not believe the reason this time. We`ll tell you next.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Bad news for Casey Anthony`s defense; the Florida bar investigating Jose Baez again. They reportedly got several complaints claiming he told private eye Dominick Casey to keep quiet if he found Caylee`s body.

Could that mean the defense camp knew where the body was? I`ll have Jose Baez`s reaction to these shocking claims.

Plus, she`s back. Octo-mom sets the record straight, claiming she worked double shifts -- get this -- at a psychiatric ward, to pay for her fertilization treatment. And she wants to get out of the public eye. Oh, really? I`ll have the outrageous octo-details.

The return of octo-mom in just moments.

But first, Casey Anthony`s lawyer faces another accusation of bad behavior. Jose Baez could be in hot water over alleged unethical conduct. He is facing reportedly two accusations now before the Florida Bar Association.

And now CNN affiliate WFTV is reporting that one of the people who filed a complaint against him could be none other than the judge presiding over the Casey Anthony murder case. What? That`s right. Judge Stan Strickland.

The bewildering allegations involve private eye Dominick Casey. And he is the gumshoe working for the Anthonys. And the possibility that Baez instructed this private eye to call him before calling 911, if that private eye found the remains of little Caylee.

Now, that P.I., Dominick Casey, sparked a huge controversy -- you see him right there -- when he was video-taped searching for the remains back in November right there, at the very same location where little Caylee`s remains were found a month later, right there.

Dominick Casey spoke to police and to CNN affiliate WESH about the speculation that somebody, on his side, knew where Caylee was.


DOMINICK CASEY, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: And I had the misfortune to stumble across the remains. The first thing I would have done would have - - the second thing I would have done I would have stayed right at the location and called 911.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is the implication behind this new allegation that the defense somehow knew where Caylee was all along? And how did they know that, if they did?

As for Baez, his spokesman said, quote, "Mr. Baez has done nothing unethical throughout the investigation. And as Casey Anthony`s defense lawyer, he and his counsel will respond at the appropriate time to refute any and all of the untrue allegations."

Meantime, Casey`s ex-fiance Jesse Grund goes on the record about suspecting he, that guy right there, was going to be framed for Caylee`s murder. Listen to his September interview with the cops.


POLICE: Did Padilla tell you how you killed the baby? Did they say how they were putting that together?

JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: I think he did, but I don`t remember.

POLICE: Try to remember for me, because that`s pretty crucial.

GRUND: I think he may have said that I drowned Caylee. I think that`s what they were trying to say.

POLICE: That you intentionally drowned Caylee.


POLICE: Where was the supposed to have happened?

GRUND: I think in the pool in the backyard.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. This is shocking. Jesse Grund makes more stunning claims that we will reveal in just moments.

But first, let`s get my expert panel in on all this. Rebecca Rose Woodland, criminal defense attorney; Paul Callan, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor; and still here Darren Kavinoky, criminal defense attorney and "Voice of Reason" as we call him; and Jean Casarez, correspondent at the legal network "In Session."

Jean, these allegations that Baez allegedly told the Anthony`s private eye not to call the cops, not to call 911, if he found the body, but to call him. Why are they so potentially explosive?

JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Because it`s misconduct. It is ethical misconduct allegedly. Jane, I called the State Bar of Florida today, and I did confirm there is an open investigation.

Now, we`ve got to make sure everybody realizes anybody can file a complaint here. And normally it is not public, who filed the complaint, what the complaint was about, but they can confirm if an investigation is going on.

I did confirm it was in regard to a Dominic Casey issue. But now late this afternoon WFTV is going one step farther saying there are two investigations, one being from the judge himself.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is a shocker to me.

Paul Callan, I`ve never heard of a judge presiding over a murder case, filing a complaint, if this is true. This is just one report. I have no independent confirmation of it, against the attorney for the defendant, whose case he is presiding over.

PAUL CALLAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it`s very rare Jane, it`s not unheard of. I`ve actually seen it happened in cases where a lawyer does something unethical in court and the judge makes a referral to the grievance committee.

But here, this is pretrial. And maybe it involves the burial or the remains of the child. And how would the judge know what the investigator had done? And how would that give him grounds to make the referral? It`s very odd and very unusual.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, Darren Kavinoky, there`s something called suborning perjury. In other words, my understanding of it is that a defense attorney cannot represent a defendant that he knows, knows is guilty.

DARREN KAVINOKY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you can represent them, but suborning perjury refers to the ethical boundaries about what you can do when you know your client who`s got a right to either testify or not testify, wants to get on the stand, for example, and tell a lie.

And so there are certain ways that lawyers must behave. And ask your client a narrative, because they`ve got that constitutional right to testify. So there are certain things that lawyers need to be cautious of.

But one thing on this fundamental question about this complaint, of course, it is highly unusual that a judge would make it, because if it`s something that relates to an incident that happened in court, typically that`s dealt with by way of a contempt proceeding.

And this idea that it relates to the investigator, I would suspect that it may be a lot of things, but it`s probably not Jose Baez saying, don`t call 911 because no one`s under an affirmative obligation to call 911 if they locate a body. Although we`d all like to think that it`s good form if you do.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: They`re not?

KAVINOKY: No, of course not. As a matter of fact, it...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So if I walk home tonight and find a dead body in the gutter on the way home, I just can go, oh, la de da, I didn`t see that, and I`m not in trouble?

KAVINOKY: You have no affirmative obligation to call 911.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ll keep that in mind.

KAVINOKY: Although it`s a polite thing to do.

But in fact, it even cuts the other way, that on the defense, on the defense team, Jose Baez would be in far greater trouble with the bar, I suspect, if they actually did call 911, because that could be divulging incriminating information.

CALLAN: Well, let me jump in with an interesting story here in New York. There was a case involving a lawyer whose client told him where a body was buried. They went out into the woods, the client dug the body up, and the lawyer did not report it. He was prosecuted. You know, the court threw the case out. They said the attorney/client privilege ruled and he did not have an obligation to turn his client in.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And there`s another caveat here that I want to point out, is that Dominick Casey originally as a private eye worked for Jose Baez and then at approximately October of last year, switched over to being the private eye for the Anthony family.

So he was working for the lawyer, don`t they have like some kind of protection because they`re both working together? And let`s bring Rebecca Rose Woodland in on that.

REBECCA ROSE WOODLAND, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, Jane, I sit on a grievance committee in New York here. So I`ve seen both sides. I`ve seen attorneys that are being brought up on grievances for revealing confidences, and as well judges reporting attorneys.

But this is an odd situation. I have to agree with all our guests. It doesn`t make a lot of sense. Where is this coming from?



ROSE WOODLAND: The judge is investigating. What is it?

CASAREZ: Here`s an idea, Jane. Do you remember about a week ago when Jose Baez wanted an ex-parte hearing with the judge, all by himself with the judge to discuss a very private matter because he wanted a subpoena for some evidence for their defense and didn`t want anyone to know.

The judge in his order said we cannot do that. We can have a closed- door session with all parties, but not just you by yourself. Did something come from that communication?

CALLAN: I think that`s a great point. Because a lot of times in criminal cases a piece of evidence comes into the hands of a defense attorney, a weapon, maybe something that was found in conjunction with the body.


CALLAN: The defense attorney holds on to it.


CALLAN: Does he have to turn it over?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ve got to move on, because so many tidbits here.

We`ve heard a great deal about a fight between Casey and Cindy Anthony the night before little Caylee went missing. Now, Jesse Grund, Casey`s ex- fiance painting a much more vivid picture with possible physical violence. Listen.


GRUND: Lee, shortly after my second interview with Orange County, confided in me that the reason that he thought. Cindy confided in him that the reason he thought she felt that Casey ran off was, there was a big fight between the two of them. And the fight concerned Casey not being home a lot and not bringing Caylee by. It got into a very heated argument which turned physical and Cindy started choking Casey.

POLICE: Was there anyone else in the house when this happened?

GRUND: He didn`t actually expand upon that. As far as I understood from what he told me, it was just Cindy and Casey.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Rebecca Rose Woodland, if it was just Cindy and Casey, can any of this get into testimony unless Cindy admits it in court?

WOODLAND: No. I mean, this is hearsay. So you know, third party statements can`t be admitted in court. So he`s a third party. He just knows this.

Cindy, now, I`m sure, will be questioned by prosecutors intensely. And if she`s on the stand, she has to tell the truth. We all know that. Will she? We don`t know that.

But they will certainly question her as far as they can. The defense will object. And we`ll see how far it goes, if the judge allows this line of questioning at all.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Darren Kavinoky, ten seconds, how will this important fact of a fight the night before the girl goes missing get before the jurors?

KAVINOKY: My God, I can`t answer anything in ten seconds, Jane, please. You`re talking to a panel of lawyers here.

There`s lots of ways to try and get stuff in through the back door. I wish I could give you more from the voice of reason. But I hear the music in the background.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we`ve silenced "The Voice of Reason."

Thank you, everyone, for the great insights.

For more shockers in the Casey Anthony case, please tune in to "NANCY GRACE" tonight at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. She will have an exclusive interview with Jesse Grund`s father. You don`t want to miss that.

And right here on ISSUES, I will have the latest octo drama. Yes, she`s back.

Nadya Suleman tells all in an interview with "Life & Style" magazine. She claims she has no desire to be in the public eye, none at all. Of course not.

Are you buying it? Call 1-877-JVM SAYS; 1-877-586-7297 and let me know. Next.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: She`s back. Octo-mom returns and tells all to "Life & Style" magazine. I`ll have the octo-details in an octo-moment.

But first, "Top of the Block" tonight.

An update on Jamie Foxx`s terrifying brush with a stalker. Last month a man rushed into Foxx`s hotel room claiming he was Beyonce`s producer. Foxx immediately realized that`s not true; it was a hoax and he had to physically toss this man from his room.

Steven Taliver, a.k.a. Willie Brown, was later arrested for false imprisonment, stalking and a whole bunch of other charges. A judge has ruled this man you`re looking at is too mentally unstable to face trial. You think? The alleged stalker will undergo a psych evaluation and will stay in jail until his next hearing in June.

It kind of sounds like one of those movie scripts that Jamie Foxx must read all the time. But this time, it was too real for that star.

That is tonight`s "Top of the Block."

Now, just when you thought you`d seen the last of her, octo-mom, back, and with a vengeance. It seemed as though octo-mom, Nadya Suleman, had retreated from the limelight to quietly care for her 14 children. But like a nasty habit you just can`t kick, she`s back. That, even though she has shouted from the rooftops she does not, does not want media attention.


NADYA SULEMAN, MOTHER OF OCTUPLETS: I`m now a celebrity. Thank you. I`m not a celebrity.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I just love to hear that.

News flash: Nadia, if you don`t want to be a celebrity, maybe you should stop doing so many interviews and plastering your face all over entertainment magazines, like this week`s "Life & Style" magazine.

The cookie cover girl gave "Life & Style" an earful -- look at all those kids, wow -- no topic was off limits. Octo-mom explained how she paid for her in vitro fertilization treatments and denied reports that she and the kids will star in a reality show.

But that begs the question, just how is octo-mom paying for the expensive care of her precious babies? I have got the octo-details. We`re taking your octo-calls. Give me an octo-holler at 1-877-JVM SAYS; that`s 1-877-5867297.

First, my expert octo-panel -- ok, I will stop, promise, no more -- Judy Kuriansky. Dr. Judy, clinical psychologist and Suzanne Rozdeba, senior news editor for "Life & Style" magazine.

Maybe just one more sometime in this segment.

Suzanne, of all the things that Nadya said to your magazine, what struck you, because there`re so many competing possibilities, as the most bizarre or fascinating?

SUZANNE ROZDEBA, SENIOR NEWS EDITOR, "LIFE & STYLE" MAGAZINE: Well, the reality show is definitely fascinating, because she has been saying this whole time, well, I don`t want to be famous. I don`t want to be out in the public eye.

And she said she doesn`t want a show. Meanwhile she`s out shopping everywhere. She`s in the public eye. She`s got her photos taken. She`s telling us that the person that she would love to date is George Clooney.

Is that what someone says when they`re not famous -- when they don`t want to be famous?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And remember, she said she never even thought about Angelina Jolie, and then we heard a report that Angelina Jolie was reportedly getting letters from this woman for a long time.

Now, rumors have swirled about an octo-mom reality show. Listen to what she told TMZ back in February.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you going to star in a reality show?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When your kids are all like grown up?

SULEMAN: No, I think that`s exploitation of my kids.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exploitation of her children, that`s what she said. But just today TMZ said octo-mom was close to a deal for a reality show. And get this. Just hot off the presses, TMZ is just reporting now that Nadya Suleman, otherwise known as -- bleep -- we won`t say it again -- is in talks, meeting with producers today.

Please, Dr. Judy, explain.

DR. JUDY KURIANSKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: This woman is full of contradictions and they`re very distressing. This whole question of her Angelina connection, all you have to do is look at her, and see that in fact she has transformed into trying to look like Angelina and with a lot of kids.

Here`s one thing that really concerns me, though and Suzanne, you can respond to this. The woman says octo-mom, well, you said it, Jane, but it`s 14 kids, remember. So it`s like quint-mom. And quint-mom has said in fact, according to what Suzanne`s magazine "Life & Style" says that she doesn`t feel like a woman, she feels more like a man, and she hasn`t had sex in nine years, or six years.

How many years has it been? This really concerns me. Suzanne, what are the facts there?

ROZDEBA: Oh, it`s definitely been nine years.

KURIANSKY: Nine years.

ROZDEBA: We asked and we said, it`s been that long? She said, "Well, I don`t have those needs." She said she doesn`t believe in having random sex. And she hasn`t dated in nine years either.

And she said that if she is going to date, she`s not just going to sleep around with anyone before she introduces a guy to her kids. It`s going to be about five years.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait, wait, wait.

KURIANSKY: I read that part about waiting until she introduces a man to her kids. Jane, that`s very healthy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Five years? That`s not healthy, waiting five years.

KURIANSKY: Not five years.

ROZDEBA: That`s what she said though.

KURIANSKY: Five years is too much but it`s all contradictions and all wrong. And after nine years...

ROZDEBA: But wait, you know what`s the craziest thing?

The craziest thing is that she`s been getting all these fan mail. She`s getting fan mail to her house saying that all these single dads want to date her. You don`t even know how many offers she`s gotten already.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Scott Peterson also gets a lot of offers and so do the Menendez brothers.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t know exactly, but yes, it`s true, though.

I`ll give you that, Suzanne. There`s a lot of people who are attracted to the unusual, takes all kinds, I guess, right, Dr. Judy?

ROZDEBA: Oh, absolutely.

KURIANSKY: Sure and these men know equally that they are going to get a tremendous lot of attention. But I`m concerned about these contradictions in terms of her getting her nails done, making herself look as she thinks far more beautiful and then saying I feel more like a man.

This is tremendously just saying anything and everything that would be controversial, so even on this kind of reality show, it will not be the truth. We`ll be hearing all kinds of these yeses and nos that are not right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I like what you said. More quinto (ph) drama in just a moment.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think you`re going to start a reality show?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When your kids are all grown up?

SULEMAN: No, I think that`s exploitation of my kids.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nadya Suleman telling cameras that a reality show would be exploitation but TMZ reporting just moments ago that their sources say she was in meetings with producers of a reality show today.

Who`s telling the truth?

You know, I think it could be leverage. She could be trying to get leverage maybe to make more money out of a reality show. That`s a possibility, I don`t know. I`m not psychic.

Donna in New Jersey, your question or thought, ma`am.

DONNA, NEW JERSEY (via telephone): Hi, Jane.


DONNA: I have a question.

She`s on welfare and since she`s making all this money with these magazines and possibly the reality show and all her interviews, why is she still getting welfare when, you know, that`s for people in need?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Suzanne, I understood that she was getting some form of public assistance, because she had disabled children. She says that`s not welfare, but what`s the money situation?

ROZDEBA: Exactly, Jane. She actually vehemently denies that she`s on welfare. She said that a little while ago she asked for food stamps and she only used them for a short time. She says, "I am not on welfare, I don`t want to use it."

She says that she`s been saving up since she was 19 years old for all of the in vitro, for caring for her kids. She says she has the money.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Dr. Judy, just giving birth to her children in that hospital and getting those little babies ready to go home is estimated to cost anywhere between $1 million and $3 million. And that reportedly is ultimately probably going to get billed to Medi-Cal, which is California`s health system which is tax dollars.

KURIANSKY: The main thing, Jane, is that everything she says cannot be trusted. And this is something that`s very important for all the viewers to know. When this reality show happens, which it probably will, because everybody...


KURIANSKY: ... yes, will be glued to the men who want to be the other octo-dads so to speak, we`ll have that phrase you`ll love.

ROZDEBA: It will be amazing and I hope that it does happen.

KURIANSKY: Why do you hope that will happen?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Whoa, whoa, why do you hope it happens? I mean, these poor kids -- do you know what it`s like to grow up under the klieg lights?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean, how many child stars have we seen gone south because of that?

ROZDEBA: Look at shows like "Jon and Kate Plus Eight" which people are absolutely glued to. Nadya saying that she doesn`t want to be in the public eye, she`s out getting photographed every single day.

KURIANSKY: I know but what bothers me about it is that she`s dishonest about so many things. She speaks out of both sides of her mouth and that`s a serious problem that all viewers need to be aware of.

ROZDEBA: Let`s find her a good man.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ladies, we`re going to have to continue this octo- drama one last time. I had to say it.

You`re watching ISSUES on HLN.