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NANCY GRACE

Police Analyze Casey Anthony Pattern of Phone Calls, Texts

Aired April 15, 2009 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates with skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct-taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple-bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.

Bombshell tonight. Inside tot mom`s murder investigation, we learn police spend literally hundreds of man-hours meticulously creating a detailed and high-tech analysis of tot mom`s sleep patterns, tracking her every movement based on literally thousands, thousands of phone calls and texts, texting and calling until 2:00 and 3:00 in the morning, and up by 6:00 or 7:00 to go at it again, her nights spent feverishly texting in the hours and days after Caylee goes missing. Tonight, we have the police tracking charts.

And tonight, in a stunning about-face, the state brings down the hammer and announces they will seek the death penalty against tot mom Casey Anthony. In the last hours, grandparents George and Cindy Anthony react, as does brother Lee. Tot mom`s lawyers announce she will not be, quote, "intimidated by forces out to get her." They claim a death penalty trial costs too much. Can tot mom really put a price on her little girl`s life? All the while, the state adds to its 100-plus witness list, and we have that surprise witness on audiotape. More raw footage of grandparents George and Cindy Anthony being confronted under oath.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: And you last saw her a month ago?

CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: Thirty-one days. It`s been thirty- one days.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators believe Casey Anthony did not want them to find Caylee`s body. That`s why she never reported Caylee missing.

911 OPERATOR: Why are you calling now? Why didn`t you call 31 days ago?

CASEY ANTHONY: I`ve been looking for her and have gone through other resources to try to find her, which was stupid.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One week after Casey`s July 17th arrest, new records we decoded (ph) show detectives weren`t sleeping at 4:00 o`clock in the morning, they were plotting Casey`s sleep patterns, using her cell phone activity to try to find out when and where she dumped Caylee`s body.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Local 6 analyzed hundreds of text messages and phone calls placed and received by Casey in the two weeks after Caylee disappeared. We found only 24 times when three or more hours passed with her phone remaining silent.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They plotted her down time, when there were no calls, no texts, and for how long. They cross-referenced that evidence with what they found out from eyewitnesses about her whereabouts and when she was unaccounted for.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDFATHER: I`m not going to discuss (INAUDIBLE) my granddaughter, the last thought I had of her, the last time I saw her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t ask your last thought.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes, you did. Yes, you did. You asked me what the last thing I -- don`t do that to me, sir.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight breaking news, Tracy, California. The search for 8-year-old Sandra Cantu comes to an end, her body folded into a suitcase in a nearby irrigation pond. Prime suspect, 28-year-old female Sunday school teacher Melissa Huckaby, now charged in the sex assault and death of the 8- year-old girl. Huckaby under suicide watch after reports she tries to swallow Exacto knife blades.

We also learn the very night she`s arrested, 28-year-old Huckaby sends text messages including "lol," laugh out loud. Well, bye-bye insanity defense! But she has the wherewithal in court to demand a free lawyer -- free to her, that is of course. We, the taxpayer, get the bill. If she`s crazy, she`s crazy like a fox, swearing to family and friends she`s innocent, but then changes her story. New story tonight? She says 8-year- old Cantu`s death was an accident. But hello? What about that alleged rape? Was that an accident, too? This Sunday school teacher better start praying!

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I miss my little girl! I love her!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the case of 8-year-old Sandra Cantu, whose body was found stuffed inside a suitcase only two miles from where she was last seen. Reports have emerged that Sunday school teacher Melissa Huckaby, accused of raping and murdering Sandra, told cops that the child`s death was an accident. New details have also been revealed about an alleged suicide attempt by Huckaby just days before her arrest, with one station reporting that Huckaby tried to kill herself by swallowing Exacto knife blades.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Feel she`s innocent?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Outside court, Huckaby`s father, Brian Lawless, told ABC 7 the allegations against her do not fit the daughter he knows.

BRIAN LAWLESS, HUCKABY`S FATHER: The young lady I see on film is not my daughter. I just don`t see that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meanwhile, during her interview with cops last week, Huckaby reportedly admitted to writing the note she claims she found the day after Sandra`s disappearance. The note contained the words "Cantu, suitcase, water."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just sad that somebody would think -- be so despicable as to kill this little girl. I mean, that`s crazy. It`s insane. There`s a monster out there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family of Sandra Cantu held a private funeral for the 8-year-old today. Dozens gathered for the service at a local chapel, where a horse-drawn carriage then carried the casket to the Tracy mausoleum.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. We go inside tot mom`s murder investigation and learn police spend literally hundreds of man-hours meticulously creating a detailed and high-tech analysis of tot mom`s sleep patterns -- that`s right, sleep patterns, tracking her every movement based on literally thousands, thousands of cell calls and texts in the hours and days after Caylee goes missing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I know what I`m honestly up against. You guys understand what I`m honestly up against. And with keeping me here, you`re not helping me help myself.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators map cell phone towers near key locations -- Sawgrass Apartments, where she first claimed Caylee was dropped off with the mystery nanny, her house, her boyfriend`s apartment, even the east Orange County landfill. They even use detailed cell tower maps to trace her movements June 27th, the day she ditched her car, which investigators and even her father say smelled of death.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Decomposition smell, yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you smelled that in the car?

GEORGE ANTHONY: It`s a smell, sir, you never forget.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The duct tape over the face, the sticker over the mouth, those are the parts of the heinous and cruel nature of the crime that then elevate this horrible crime to something worthy of the death penalty in Florida.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: If they think that this is going to make her plea, they`re sadly mistaken. They have no witnesses, no confession.

GEORGE ANTHONY: You guys have torn apart my family so much, every single one of you. Every single one of you. You don`t realize what you`ve done to us. And you don`t care.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is outrageous. This is outrageous.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: It`s not outrageous.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You -- this is a court proceeding. This is going to be played at a trial at some date. For your own good, please stop.

CASEY ANTHONY: Stop it!

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams, reporter and anchor, standing by there in Orlando. Hundreds of man-hours spent by police tracking her every movement. How did they do it, Mark?

MARK WILLIAMS, REPORTER/ANCHOR: Well, they did it, of course, through a computer program that they have. And what they did, Nancy, was they took a look at all those cell phone pings and text message pings that went from place to place. The only thing they cannot figure out, Nancy, is the fact that they are still trying to determine when Casey killed Caylee and when she dumped the body, Nancy.

GRACE: Out to Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer, on the case from the very beginning. We are taking your calls live. Ellie, I`m thinking this probably took thousands of man-hours, not hundreds of man- hours. And Ellie, how many calls and texts are we talking about?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: This is -- this is the call log. It`s 147 pages. Conservatively, there`s about 30 texts or calls per page. So if you add that up, we`re talking over 4,000 calls or texts.

GRACE: In what period of time?

JOSTAD: This is just from June 1st to July 17th.

GRACE: OK. That`s crazy. Now, Ellie, you have analyzed the police chart. Rosie, as soon as we can, let`s put that chart up so the viewers can see it. It`s extremely detailed. It`s a little difficult to read unless you really know what you`re looking at. Ellie, what do we learn?

JOSTAD: Well, the upshot of this chart is that Casey Anthony is texting or calling her friends and her boyfriends until 2:00 or 3:00 o`clock in the morning every night. And then she`s up again at 6:00 or 7:00 o`clock in the morning, calling these people, sending more text messages.

GRACE: Now, Ellie, tell me about when there were big holes, holes in the texts. Now, you`re talking about 4,000, conservatively speaking, texts and phone calls. And then, amazingly -- that`s, like, how many an hour, 12 or 13, 14 an hour? But then, amazingly, there will be a chunk of three or four hours where everything goes dead.

JOSTAD: Right. The key dates here are June 17th, 18th and 19th. Those three days, she has dead zones for about two or three hours in the middle of the day to the early evening, times when she`s usually sending a flurry of texts, making calls, receiving and getting texts.

GRACE: Joining me right now from Raleigh, North Carolina -- when I say expert, I mean expert -- Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert. Mr. Levitan, thank you for being with us. In November, you personally analyzed her text messaging activity. What did you learn, and what have law enforcement been able to learn?

BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT (via telephone): Nancy, you broke this story back on November 14th when you sent me this material. Now, what the police have done is they have taken the telephone calls and plotted them out. But if I have to take the expert`s position for the defense, I`m going to say, Well, many of these calls might have gone straight to voice-mail. She didn`t necessarily take these calls. So that`s why when we did our analysis back in November, we only looked at text messages because that means she actively had the device in her hand.

And I -- my findings were consistent. She slept about three-and-a- half hours a night. She averaged 12 text messages an hour. And I analyzed the four days before and after June 16th. I found the same thing. I found that in the morning, she`d get up very early, she`d send out about 60 text messages. Now, you`ve got to imagine what 60 text messages (INAUDIBLE)

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: With me from Raleigh, North Carolina, is Ben Levitan. Cold case expert Sheryl McCollum with us. Sheryl, you ever laid awake feeling guilty about something? You twist and you turn, you feel hot all over. At least, I have. What do you make of it?

SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST: Absolutely. The reason she can`t sleep is she had a dead body in the trunk. She had to keep moving. She had to hide that body, Nancy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes, I still believe there`s a Zanny out there. I do.

CINDY ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl! I need to find her!

She`s been a victim just as much as Caylee has.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m just as much of a victim as the rest of you. And it hasn`t been portrayed that way, and it probably won`t be. But I know that, and at least there are other people that know that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How come everybody`s saying that you`re not upset, that you`re not crying, that you show no caring of where Caylee is at all?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I`m not sitting here (DELETED) crying every two seconds!

All I want is Caylee home. But I want to be there when she comes home.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I got within three feet of my daughter`s car. The worst odor that you could possibly smell...

Certain smells, sir, you never forget.

There was pizza full of maggots and all kind of stuff, an odor that was very, very, very strong.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: I have no idea who took Caylee. I believe what she was telling me was accurate.

CASEY ANTHONY: I want to hear Caylee laugh. I want to be with my baby!

CINDY ANTHONY: I`ve never seen her be a bad mom. She loves her daughter.

CASEY ANTHONY: Mommy loves her very much.

CINDY ANTHONY: I have -- I don`t -- I have no idea who had -- who took Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were saying you`re not sure if your daughter was telling the truth or not about the picture. Or do you know?

CINDY ANTHONY: I believe Casey may not have been shown a picture of this particular Zenaida.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. You say you believe that. You believe that now.

CINDY ANTHONY: I believe that now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

CINDY ANTHONY: That there`s a possibility that she may not have been shown that picture.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Now, the flip side -- you know, we`ve heard, through -- and you were saying it before about the description and the police showing her. Are you saying that the police are being untruthful about that they showed your daughter a picture of my client?

CINDY ANTHONY: What I`m saying is that the sheriff`s department has stated many things that have been not truthful.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live tonight. We learn hundreds, if not thousands, of police man-hours spent tracking tot mom`s sleep patterns. What do they hope to prove?

Back to Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer. Are they trying to pinpoint not only when she was texting, when she was not texting, but where she was based on pings?

JOSTAD: Right. They are, Nancy. They put together a map that shows where all the various cell phone towers are around her home, around where her boyfriends lived. And they`re trying to figure out where she was going when she was making all these calls and texts.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Diana, Arizona. Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you, Nancy?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just had a question regarding the Zenaida Gonzalez questioning of George and Cindy Anthony.

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They have both stated that this Zenaida is not the one that is the kidnapper.

GRACE: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I`m just wondering why that case is still going on. Why are they still being questioned?

GRACE: Interesting question. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, family law, child advocate, attorney Susan Moss out of New York, Renee Rockwell, veteran defense attorney, Atlanta jurisdiction, and trial lawyer throughout the country Alan Ripka. Sue Moss, weigh in.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: That`s because they have the right to make sure to prove their case that not only was this not the Zenaida, but all of the damages that she suffered because she has been dragged into this mess.

GRACE: You know, Renee Rockwell, I believe at the get-go, at some point, tot mom stated the real Zenaida Gonzalez that is bringing this lawsuit is not the one that took the baby. But they still have to prove damages.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s right. But Nancy, I don`t know why this lawsuit continues, except for the fact that they`re getting a whole lot of mileage out of this publicity-wise, and also...

GRACE: Oh, come on. You`re saying that Morgan needs mileage? His face is plastered on every billboard and bus that goes by!

ROCKWELL: But Nancy...

GRACE: He doesn`t need this case!

ROCKWELL: And also, I think that the state is going to use everything that`s being discovered through this civil case in the criminal case. They can`t change their story.

GRACE: OK. You know, Alan Ripka, I guarantee you the prosecutors don`t have a secret cone of silence up with civil lawyer -- he`s an empire -- John Morgan to get him to do their dirty work and use his depositions at trial. That`s not what`s happening.

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s not what`s happening here. And as I told you a few weeks ago, Nancy, there`s no civil case here anymore because once this person is not identified as the person who did something that she did not do, her face -- there`s no defamation. There`s no loss of reputation and thus no damages. The case will be over.

GRACE: Well, all I know is she lost her job and she can`t get another job, and she`s been through hell, according to her. Now, that might not mean anything to a Manhattan 5th Avenue lawyer like yourself, but to her, it might mean something, Ripka.

Out to the lines. Marie in California. Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. God bless and you and your children.

GRACE: Thank you very much. They have been sick the last couple weeks. Mommy`s been up to 3:30 in the morning every night. So I appreciate that. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) I`d like to just state, why did she need a baby-sitter, a nanny, if she didn`t even have a job? And two, grandchildren mean everything. I have a granddaughter. And they`ve known her their daughter all her life and they know she`s a liar. Why are they standing behind her? I don`t understand that. Their granddaughter should have meant everything to them. Thank you, Nancy.

GRACE: Leonard Padilla -- thank you, Marie in California. Leonard Padilla, you know them better than we do. You`ve been in the home. Go ahead, hit me.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Thank you. Let me explain something to you. In the system that the United States functions on, a lady like Zenaida that cleans houses, her next level of achievement is baby-sitting. How many people are going to hire her to be a baby-sitter, to get her out of the house cleaning thing that she`s in? When I went back there, she was living in a Motel 6, which I think she still is.

Now, getting back to the baby and the timeline from the phones -- the baby was killed about 1:15, 1:30 in the morning of Monday the 16th. And 2.6 days of decomposition puts her being double-bagged, triple-bagged, actually, with the laundry bag, at about 2:00 o`clock in the afternoon of the 18th. She was in the car until the 24th, when George almost got to the trunk, and that`s when she drove around the corner and dumped the body. And that`s how she got terpins (ph) in the trunk of that car.

GRACE: OK, the question was -- let me refresh your recollection, Padilla -- about the grandparents.

PADILLA: Grandparents? I mean, you`ve seen them every day of the week. They`re going to be on the Oprah show. What can I say? What can I say?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAEZ: If they think that this is going to make her plea, they`re sadly mistaken.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m trying to look at things objectively.

BAEZ: They have no witnesses, no confession.

CASEY ANTHONY: Again, it`s going to blow over.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They don`t know the cause of death. They don`t know when the death was caused. They don`t know who caused the death. They don`t know how it happened.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not going to give the media anything when I get out of here. It sucks for them because I have nothing to say.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Today, the Anthony family reacts to the announcement the state will seek the death penalty. What did they say?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, they said that`s not going to change their love for Casey, they`re standing by her, she deserves a fair trial, and that she`s innocent until proven guilty. If four jury members convict her, then they`ll cross that bridge when they get there. Also, Jose Baez reacted, saying that he`s standing by her, he`s prepared her for the possibility that this may happen, and that they`re ready to fight for her life.

GRACE: To Dr. Caryn Stark, psychologist, joining us from New York. Reports emerge tonight that she has become bulimic behind bars, stoking up on junk food, pastries, chocolate, expensive bottled water, then vomiting the rest of the night to keep her figure for trial. Thoughts?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, if she`s thinner, Nancy, she`ll certainly be more sympathetic. Bulimia is usually much more complicated than that, but it is a coping mechanism and it will, in her opinion, I`m thinking, make her be more sympathetic.

GRACE: To Dr. Marty Makary out of Johns Hopkins. Dr. Makary, how would people know she`s become bulimic?

DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: Well, oftentimes, there`s a clear indication that they`re malnourished from their facial appearance and their muscle wasting. But often, bulimia is associated with other psychiatric illness, like mood disorders and severe anxiety.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I don`t know what your involvement, sweetheart. You`re not telling me where she`s at.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: Because I don`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) know where she`s at. Are you kidding me?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your daughter throughout that time was indicating that Zanny had her, right?

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: At the beginning, sir, that`s what I was told, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, did -- sometime during the time she was missing before the remains were found did.

G. ANTHONY: You know something? If you say the remains one more time, sir, I`m walking out this door.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

G. ANTHONY: How dare you say that about my granddaughter? How dare you?

CASEY ANTHONY: I still have that feeling at present. I know that she`s alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there any other person besides your daughter that has told you that they have met or seen Zanny?

CINDY ANTHONY: No. But Caylee talked about Zanny`s dog.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ll get to that.

CINDY ANTHONY: She`s another person.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I appreciate it. I just want.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. Well, if there`s a dog that belongs to Zanny, then there must be a Zanny.

CASEY ANTHONY: Everything has been taken from me. I have no one to talk to. Jose when he comes, he`s the only person that I can talk to right now.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: We feel our client`s innocent and we want to have her day in court.

CASEY ANTHONY: I wish that, like I said, that none of this would have happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Hundreds if not thousands of hours, of man-hours dedicated to tracking tot mom`s sleep patterns and her cell and text phone -- cell phone and text activity. Up to 4,000. And that`s conservatively speaking. Calls and texts in the days and hours after little Caylee goes missing.

There is one period of inactivity on June 16, Sheryl McCollum. McCollum, an expert in cold cases. What do these periods of three and four hours of inactivity on a woman that texts 10 and 12 times an hour? What does it mean?

SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST, DIR. OF COLD CASE SQUAD AT PINE LAKE P.D.: It means she`s moving the body. We know the child was in the trunk at some point, decomposing. We know the child wound up somewhere else. So you have a primary crime scene, you`ve got a secondary crime scene, and in this case possibly a third.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Linda in Illinois. Hi, Linda. Do I have Linda, Rosie?

LINDA, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

LINDA: I just want to tell you I watch your show every night.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you so much.

LINDA: And I think the pictures of your twins are great.

GRACE: You know I keep wanting to show the Easter photos that we took of them. Believe me, we practiced egg hunting so they`d have an edge. They ended up giving all their eggs to other children.

LINDA: Oh, my.

GRACE: OK and putting them in their baskets. It did not go as mommy had thought it would at all. But it`s hard to take joy and show these pictures when we`re covering cases like this and Cantu. But I`m going to show them.

Thank you, dear. What`s your question?

LINDA: I just want to know if she`s convicted that will she still be in a single cell? If she`s convicted.

GRACE: Excellent question.

LINDA: But I think if she is convicted she ought to be put in general population and share some of those treats.

GRACE: Share some -- you know you should see her commissary list. I get it every week, Linda. Chocolate, expensive bottled water, seafood. Mexican food. Pastries. You name it.

Out to Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka. If she does get the death penalty sentence, she will be housed on the row, which is not in general population, Renee.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, it`s not. And Nancy, in Florida, you can expect that this does happen to pretty young white females at some point.

GRACE: What happens to pretty young white females?

ROCKWELL: That they too can get the death penalty and sit on that row and just wait.

GRACE: Now, why would you even bring up the possibility of differentiating her because she`s, as you say, a pretty young white female? What`s your point, Rockwell?

ROCKWELL: Nancy, because you would think that as a defense attorney if I would had to look at a photo book of all the people that are sitting on death row and I had to choose my client it would be this girl right here.

GRACE: Because?

ROCKWELL: Just because, perhaps a jury would have a hard time doing it.

GRACE: Because she, you`re saying, is pretty and young and white?

ROCKWELL: That`s right, Nancy. Just look at the list.

GRACE: Well, let`s see them. If I can get Rosie to put those pictures up, we`ll show you the photos of women that have been sentenced to the death penalty in Florida. We showed them last night. What about it, Ripka?

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I completely disagree. And the reason I do is because people are going to say to themselves this is a mother who may have killed her own kid. And at that point this little girl had no defense.

And you look to your parent, your siblings, for a defense. And she had nothing in her last minutes. And therefore, a jury, if they convict her, and I don`t think they will, by the way, if I was her defense attorney. But if they do, they will hang her faster than you know.

GRACE: Out to Jennifer in Wyoming. Hi, Jennifer.

JENNIFER, CALLER IN WYOMING: Hi, Nancy. I love your show. I think you`re great.

GRACE: Bless you. Thank you. I don`t deserve that. But I appreciate.

JENNIFER: You absolutely do. My question is what are the chances that she will actually receive the death penalty if and when she`s convicted?

GRACE: You know, Sue Moss, I think they`re pretty good.

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. This jury will dare to give her the chair. But I`ve got to tell you something. When you look at this chart, this text message chart is going to pull -- you know, tear any alibi apart.

Because she`s going to have to say when did she meet with Zanny? And there are going to be texts before and after, and I bet there is no mention of Zanny, there is no mention of her daughter, and all she`s talking about is partying.

GRACE: Out to Ben Levitan, our telecommunications expert joining us out of Raleigh, North Carolina. He made a very similar analysis of the cell and texts several months ago for us. Bottom line, what do we learn? Break it down for me like you would a jury.

BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: What we`ve got is someone who is using a texting device 12 hours a day, not talking about her kids, never mentioning her kids, talking about partying, just like she said.

And we do have -- what I found interesting was the gap of 12 hours on June 16th and then again on June 17th, which yes, either she was doing something else or it`s something that`s completely out of her sleep pattern, like maybe she was disturbed about something she had just done.

But I agree 100 percent. From looking at the text messages, you know that she was actively doing that. And not only that, when you look at that cell tower map you put up there, we can specify where she was down to one third of those circles.

GRACE: Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert, joining us tonight.

Out to Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer. In all of those 4,000, as you conservatively say, 4,000 phone calls and text messages from her phone, how many times do we know that she mentioned Caylee?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: Well, from these records, we just know what number she called.

GRACE: Right.

JOSTAD: But you remember we got documents that had Amy Huizenga`s text messages back and forth with Casey Anthony.

GRACE: Yes.

JOSTAD: There were hundreds. I think there were 700 or 800 text messages. In two of those she mentioned Caylee.

GRACE: OK. You know what? I know what the defense attorneys are going to say. That doesn`t mean anything. It says volumes to me.

Natisha Lance, tell me, Natisha, where are we getting the information that she has become bulimic behind bars in an effort to stay trim for trial?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: This is coming from a recent report, Nancy. And what the jail is saying is that they don`t monitor something like this but even if they did they couldn`t give that information to us because that is something that would be held with the medical arena. So they`re not confirming nor are they denying this report.

GRACE: You know, Sheryl McCollum, she`s in jail. They know when you take a poop. All right? I`m sure that the guards can hear her gagging herself if in fact that`s happening.

MCCOLLUM: Oh, absolutely. They know she`s doing it. They just can`t obviously release that.

GRACE: Out to Mark Williams, anchor and reporter, joining us from Orlando. A new witness has been added on to the 100-plus state`s witness list. Who is it?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Kathy Kutcher. She`s a sheriff`s deputy. She was the one who went with Deputy Richard Kane back in August when he initially met with Roy Kronk. It was around August 13th.

I had my deputies mixed up because there`s so many deputies.

GRACE: Kutcher. Go ahead.

WILLIAMS: Kutcher, yes. And one other thing, Nancy, what I told you last year, she is the text messaging queen in central Florida. I don`t think anybody else ever text messages that much as well as Casey Anthony.

GRACE: Ellie Jostad, what`s the significance of this new witness, Kutcher?

JOSTAD: Well, Kutcher is the one who went out there after Deputy Richard Kane, the one who was just fired last week. She arrived shortly after he did. She saw him walking out of the woods. She says that Roy Kronk said several times -- she said she would be -- or she said she was real close.

GRACE: So he`s referring to tot mom. Out to Melissa in North Carolina. Hi, Melissa.

MELISSA, CALLER FROM NORTH CAROLINA: hi, Nancy. Love your show.

GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?

MELISSA: I have a question. And I would like to know, what are the chances if this case turned out to be strictly circumstantial evidence? In other words, what are the statistics on that as far as the prosecution in this case?

GRACE: OK. Susan moss, Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka. To you, Renee. Many, many cases, in fact the majority of cases I ever prosecuted were circumstantial evidence cases. It`s very rare you have a confession or you`ve got an eyewitness that`s believable to the jury.

ROCKWELL: And Nancy, this case may come down to a fingerprint on the duct tape. But by virtue of the fact that they`re going back to the death penalty, I think they`re going to have a harder time getting a conviction.

GRACE: Blah, blah, blah, blah.

ROCKWELL: Now that the jury knows death is being sought.

GRACE: Uh-huh.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stunning details today in the tragic murder of 8-year-old Sandra Cantu, who police say was killed by local Sunday school teacher Melissa Huckaby.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A woman accused of killing the 8-year-old, stuffing her body in a suitcase and throwing it into a pond, is also accused of raping little Sandra.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police want to know if a Sunday school teacher accused of raping and killing an 8-year-old girl had any other alleged victims.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was a Sunday school teacher and did have contact with children. That`s why we`re asking.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Melissa Huckaby, again, a Sunday school teacher of all things.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to reports, Huckaby told investigators during her interrogation last week that Sandra`s death was an accident. The state has not yet announced if they are seeking death against the 28- year-old mother.

In other developments, just days before her arrest, Huckaby allegedly attempted to commit suicide by swallowing X-Acto knives. While Huckaby reportedly denies the claim she remains behind bars on suicide watch.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: She swallows not one, not two, but three X-Acto blades?

Dr. Marty Makary, why didn`t it work?

DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: Well, actually, most people are surprised, they often are not fatal. And it`s actually common.

GRACE: Well, I`ve never even heard of swallowing an X-Acto knife. Those are the blades that you slice for a precise cut -- yes, there it is. OK. Well, which one is it? Which one, Rosie, is the one that she swallowed? The one in the middle? The one on the left.

Whoa. Hold on. Makary, she swallowed three of the ones on the left and she lived to tell the tale?

MAKARY: Oftentimes the body has a way of sort of entrapping the knives and they can pass through with only some bleeding. Most people live, and it`s a way a lot of people, especially prisoners, get a lot of attention as they try to get out of the situation that they`re in.

GRACE: Out to Bob Moffet with KMBK News Talk 1530. He`s joining us from outside the jail. First she says she has nothing to do with it. Then she blabs to the media, changing her story, and waves the red flag. Then she apparently writes some zany note which I guess she sends herself. Quite showing where the body is. Says she didn`t do it.

Then she says she`s innocent. Now she says it`s an accident. But there`s a little problem with the alleged rape of the child. And what can you tell me about reports out of KOVR from several parents that this is because this woman may have been involved in child pornography?

BOB MOFFET, REPORTER, KMBK NEWSTALK 1530, ON LOCATION OUTSIDE MURDER SUSPECT`S JAIL: Well, from what we have heard, the investigation has turned into other victims. The Tracy Police Department has asked for parents to come forward with any stories that their children may have told them about any possible misconduct by Melissa Huckaby.

And if you`ll remember, shortly after Sandra Cantu`s body was found there were search warrants served in the trailer park and also at the church belonging to Melissa Huckaby`s grandfather, Mr. Wallace. And a computer was taken from the pastor or from the church as well.

So we`re not sure where the pornography, pornographic images may have come from if they in fact exist, if they may have existed on one of those computers.

GRACE: Well, let me just give a little clue to the police. Try her cell phone.

You know, Sheryl McCollum, I can only think of one word -- freak.

MCCOLLUM: Absolutely. Checking her cell phone is brilliant, Nancy. She`s going to have photographs of those children on there. The computer is, you know, investigation 101. She`s been on Internet sites. She`s been in chat rooms. This is nothing that`s not going to be real easy, you know, to show everybody what she`s been doing.

GRACE: Because you know, the fact -- the anomaly of a female sex predator that commits murder is highly unusual. But when you throw in the specter of a child pornography motive, then it starts making more sense.

What about it? Out to Sebastian Kunz with KNEW Radio.

SEBASTIAN KUNZ, REPORTER, KNEW RADIO, COVERING STORY: Nancy, I understand that these razor blades she may have swallowed, in fact, may have started the entire unraveling process because it is a person, some anonymous source in the public that tipped off a local newspaper reporter to the fact that someone was hospitalized for an apparent suicide attempt that might have been related to the Cantu case.

It is that reporter that then figured out it was Melissa Huckaby and then got a phone interview with her, put an interview in the paper, and thus the police read this interview and say hey, this is not what you told us, what`s going on here?

GRACE: OK. Let`s go to the lawyers. Unleash them. Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka.

You know what, Susan, why doesn`t she just take out a billboard on Third Avenue screaming I did it? She changes her story. She writes this kooky letter telling where the body is in cryptic words. She swallows X- Acto knives. Said she didn`t do it, then says it was an accident. Uh-oh, but what about the rape?

MOSS: She`s trying to stage an insanity defense, but it`s not going to work. It`s not going to work. She knows the difference between right and wrong. Heck, she probably taught that in Sunday school. It`s not going to work, and she is going to be convicted.

GRACE: OK, Renee Rockwell, what`s your story this time?

ROCKWELL: Rule 101, do not say anything. She`s backing herself into the corner. She said she didn`t do it. Then she said it was an accident. Remember, Nancy, if it`s an accident, it means I did it but I didn`t mean to kill her. So she`s all over the place.

GRACE: You know, Renee, that`s what I just told you. I`m asking you to tell me what your defense would be.

ROCKWELL: Nancy, the first thing you do is put a muzzle on her and.

GRACE: Too late.

ROCKWELL: . and make her stop talking, but it`s going to be a mental defect defense, Nancy. And because this suicide attempt itself is so entirely crazy I think they`re going to be able to make some ground, maybe not much, with the defense.

GRACE: Ripka?

RIPKA: The bottom line is the fact that she tried to commit suicide is not coming into the trial. It`s not evidence of guilt in a court of law. And secondly, she may have attempted to do something sexual with this girl, but that does not mean she had an idea to premeditate and murder her. And I think the defense are going to be.

GRACE: Wait, put Ripka up while he says that. So.

RIPKA: Well, she didn`t intend on murdering her and that`s the defense.

GRACE: She molests a child but everything was an accident, unintentional. How do you rape a child with a foreign object and tell me it`s accidental, Ripka? Don`t hold your earpiece. You heard me.

RIPKA: Nancy, at the end of the day, she may be responsible for some sort of sexual misconduct. That does not mean she intended on murdering her.

GRACE: OK.

RIPKA: It could have been an accident. The girl could have tried to run away. There could have been a problem that may not have.

GRACE: Yes, that`s a problem.

RIPKA: Well, that`s the defense.

GRACE: Caryn Stark, Caryn Start, we need a shrink. We need one fast. Weigh in.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Nancy, to me she clearly knows that she did something wrong. She`s giving it away. She does know the difference between right and wrong. We have no doubt about that. And so it does really seem like she`s going to be in deep, deep trouble.

GRACE: As I said earlier, this Sunday school teacher better start praying.

Georgia in California, what`s your question, dear?

GEORGIA, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: My question is, Nancy, if she raped this child with a foreign object, has anybody -- has CPS been to evaluate and examine her own child to see if there was any sexual molestation in the home?

GRACE: That would be step number one. What do we know, Moffet?

MOFFET: Well, the police department was asked about that last week as a matter of fact. They said they contacted the child and had inspected her and had found no reason to charge Melissa Huckaby with anything further.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lawless says his family is in shock over what has happened and can`t imagine his daughter being responsible for the horrific crimes that she`s being charged with.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The young lady I see on film is not my daughter. I just don`t see that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We`re taking your calls. Annette in Arkansas, hi, Annette.

ANNETTE, CALLER FROM ARKANSAS: I just want to tell you how much I love your show and how much I appreciate everything that you do and your compassion that you have for just everything.

GRACE: You know what I thought I knew about being a crime victim but now that I`ve had a twins, cases like this I actually think about them and dream about them and worry about them.

What`s your question, love?

ANNETTE: It`s horrendous. I am just wondering about this woman. I mean it`s obvious she knew what she was doing. With the things that she`s doing right now, are they going to do a mental analysis on her?

GRACE: Annette, yes, they are. Yes, they are. But her own grandfather says she knows right from wrong. She was functioning properly up until this incident. In other words, she had her wits about her. She knew enough to lie to police.

If she hadn`t yak so much, Renee, they may have never even gotten on to her.

ROCKWELL: That`s right. Are you talking to me, Nancy?

GRACE: Yes.

ROCKWELL: There you go, Nancy. The biggest nightmare that a defense attorney could have is a client that has painted herself into the corner. And it`s going to be heck to deal with that. The only thing I see is them attempting to get anything that she said, possibly excluded.

GRACE: OK. What about it, Sue Moss?

MOSS: There is no accidental rape. She may teach Sunday school but she`s going to hell and all her statements are coming in in this trial.

GRACE: You know, Sue Moss, they may need to listen to you when they write their closing arguments.

Everybody, let`s stop and remember Army Private Charles Barnett, 19, Bel Air, Maryland, killed in Iraq. From a long line of vets. Had a smile that lit up a room. Loved video games. Sketching portraits. Fantasy comic book characters. Dreamed of being a SWAT officer. Leaves behind parents Yvonne and Kenneth, one sister, three brothers including one brother in the Air Force.

Charles Barnett. Look at that smile. American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

END