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Anthonys Sit Down with Larry King; Honeymoon Horror

Aired May 14, 2009 - 19:00:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: Tonight, electrifying developments in the Casey Anthony case. Parents, Cindy and George, sit down with Larry King and put a whole new spin on key evidence in the case. And they also lash out of at the media.

But they still have no answer for why their daughter did not call cops after little Caylee went missing. Also, why did the Anthonys still have their own private eye investigating Caylee`s disappearance? I`ll show you the intense interview.

And yet another crazy turn in the Haleigh Cummings disappearance. Investigative journalist, Art Harris said a convicted drug dealer is pounding the pavement in search of the five-year-old child. The dealer is reportedly using his street sources to dig up information so he can work a deal with the cops. I`ll speak to Art Harris for the latest shockers.

Then, honeymoon horror as an American man allegedly drowns his wife in Australia. David Watson turned himself in to Australian authorities yesterday and could face life in prison if convicted. The alleged motive for this appalling act? Possibly pocketing the wife`s modest life insurance policy.

And Jon minus Kate plus eight? Reality TV stars Jon and Kate Gosselin could be calling their marriage quits. At least that`s what Kate`s brother told RadarOnline. So were rumors of Jon`s affair true? And what will happen to their eight kids who are already living under the media microscope?

ISSUES starts now.

Tonight, astonishing claims and jaw- dropping admissions as Cindy and George Anthony take to the airwaves, all part of the national public relations road show they have staged to defend their daughter Casey. She, of course, charged with murdering their little granddaughter, Caylee.

Cindy and George Anthony along with their attorney, Brad Conway, defend Casey`s words and actions for a full hour on CNN`s "Larry King Live." The Anthony team seized the moment to dispute key evidence in the case against their daughter. You will not believe what they say about that heart sticker and duct tape reportedly found along with Caylee`s remains.

The most shocking comment of all, Cindy`s attempt -- and I mean, attempt -- to explain why Casey waited a full month before letting anybody know that her daughter had vanished. Listen.


LARRY KING, CNN HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Do you have any idea why Caylee (SIC) didn`t call police all the time her daughter was missing?

CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Casey? I can`t answer that. You know, Casey was probably coping and grieving the best that she could.

KING: Yes, but isn`t that...


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hello. Why would Casey be grieving? Her daughter`s skeletal remains were not discovered until several months later. The very first time she was confronted, Casey claimed the nanny, Zanny the nanny, took the baby and told her brother Lee, she thought little Caylee was alive and well.


LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Do you think Caylee is ok?

CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF KILLING DAUGHTER CAYLEE: In my gut, she is still ok, and it still feels like she`s close to home.


C. ANTHONY: So, that is still my best feeling at the moment.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, was she grieving? As Cindy said? Or was still holding out hope that Caylee was still alive? This is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to discrepancies that came to light last night. We will get to more of those in a moment.

But first, my incredible panel: I`m very thrilled to welcome Terence Lenamon, Casey Anthony`s former death penalty qualified attorney -- a lot of controversy there -- we`re going to get to that in a second; also Debbie Magids, psychologist; David Schwartz, criminal defense attorney and former New York City prosecutor; Rebecca Rose Woodland, criminal defense attorney; and the one and only Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, law professor and author of "And Justice for Some."

Wendy, Cindy says Casey didn`t report her daughter missing for a month probably because she`s grieving. Of course, there`s ample evidence she was out partying during that time. Cindy and George are obviously trying to help their daughter. We empathize with that. But does this kind of statement boomerang on them?

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: You know, all I can think of is how much I love Freudian slips, Jane. I don`t know. She would probably say, "Well, yes, she was grieving for the disappearance, but not the death." I think the word grieving tells us a lot about not only what Casey knew, but what Cindy knew about what Casey knew. That`s no mystery.

I mean, this family has been lying since the beginning. And sometimes even Larry King when he doesn`t throw the hardest questions at people can uncover something important. Is it going to be the key evidence in the case? No.

But here is what I think is fascinating to me. The fact that this family keeps trying to do this PR stuff, they don`t realize, they think they`re trying to help their daughter? Every time they do something on television, or something in the media, they give the judge a reason to say, "No way Jose," so to speak, about the change of venue motion.

The Clark Rockefeller Case in Boston last week, the judge said, "You know, I`d like to give you a change of venue, because everybody in Boston hates you. And they`re going to use that against you. But you know what - - it`s your fault, dummy. You kept courting the press."

When the defense team courts the press, they have to live with the consequences, which includes that you can`t change the venue. The jury may dislike you. And thanks to Cindy and George they may be helping build the case against their daughter.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, that`s what I said -- boomerang. I thought it was an excellent interview that really revealed a lot.

Debbie Magids, psychologist, you heard Wendy talk about Freudian slip. When somebody uses the word "grief," what does that say?

DEBBIE MAGIDS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, you know, these parents -- I feel for them because they`re grieving the loss of a granddaughter and they`re grieving...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re talking about Casey.

MAGIDS: No, I know that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Grieving back before she reported her daughter missing for an entire month.

MAGIDS: What I was going to say and they`re grieving the loss of their daughter. They`re doing everything they can possibly do to defend their daughter because they don`t want to lose her. That`s why I`m saying they don`t want to grieve her.

So yes, it was a Freudian slip because I do think these parents are doing everything they can to protect their daughter, even though inside I think they may know something other than what they`re saying. So it is slipping because they`re working overtime to hide something.

VEELZ-MITCHELL: The Anthonys seem to be using their appearance on "Larry King Live" to highlight discrepancies in the prosecution`s evidence. Take the issue of the heart sticker. Listen to this.


KING: The duct tape covering Caylee`s mouth allegedly had a heart- shaped residue apparently from a sticker and a sheet of a heart-shaped sticker was missing found at your home. How do you explain that?


KING: What do you mean not true?

CONWAY: Not true. There was no heart-shaped sticker on the duct tape.

KING: It was reported.

CONWAY: That`s, again, speculation that comes from the thousands of pages of...

KING: How can you speculate a heart-shaped thing on a duct tape? It`s either there or it isn`t there. How do you speculate that?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. How do we figure all that out? In an affidavit, a detective did say there was, quote, "the perfect shape of a heart on the duct tape." Outline, not the heart itself. There is the heart itself, the sticker that was found nearby. But get this -- the FBI lab report says no stickers or sticker fragments were observed on the tape.

You know, this is the kind of thing, David Schwartz, we see all the time in all these cases. The gobbledygook from the lab reports, hard to analyze. Does this give us a clue as to what the defense is going to do during trial? Take these little inconsistencies and blow them up?

DAVID SCHWARTZ, FORMER NEW YORK CITY PROSECUTOR: Yes I think there are a lot of inconsistencies that the defense can work with. This is a product of speculation, this heart situation. We have to wait and see what the evidence is.

And you know what, when you hear Wendy Murphy telling us beforehand, oh, the jury`s going to hate them, the jury`s going to hate them, you know what? The jury is supposed to be a laboratory. We have to remember what we have courts...

MURPHY: Then tell them to shut up.

SCHWARTZ: the first place, there are trials for criminal defense...


SCHWARTZ: We`re supposed to have a jury hating people before the trial even starts? That`s what`s wrong with this...

WOODLAND: I have to agree with Wendy. You do not have your client come on national television and reveal information that is inconsistent. You have them be quiet because they are not helping this girl`s case. She`s facing death.

These parents are not prepped. They don`t know what they`re saying. They`re saying all these things that are affecting the people who will be potential jurors. Good or bad, they`re trying to help, but they are not doing a good job.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I say, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. They think if they just keep talking, somehow they`re going to talk their way out of this mess. But they`re digging themselves in deeper, according to some people.

Listen, I want to bring in a very special guest, Terence Lenamon. He is Casey Anthony`s former death penalty attorney. And we`re so happy to have you.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: You appeared on "NANCY GRACE" earlier and said that you had a disagreement with Jose Baez, Casey`s current defense attorney, over strategy that was mental health related. Some people took this to mean well, maybe you were thinking, oh, she should ask for -- she should plead not guilty by reason of insanity. But you`re saying that`s not the case.

What exactly did you mean? What kind of disagreement did you have that was mental health related with Jose Baez?

LENAMON: It was clearly not -- insanity was not the issue. Miss Anthony has never admitted to this. And she still maintains her innocence.

I was brought in initially to deal with the issue of the death penalty. When you`re dealing with the death penalty, one of the things you deal with is mitigation, a life history, things that happened to her in her past, things that happened during a period of time where, as you described and some of the panel has described, her behavior was quite questionable.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So what you`re saying -- just to translate, you`re saying that when you talked about mental health issues, you`re essentially saying, "Hey, if she`s convicted, we should try to point out that she had some mental health issues as a mitigating factor so they don`t give her the death penalty?"

LENAMON: Well, I think, that`s part of it. Part of it is that everyone jumps to the conclusion that just because she`s acting a certain way or a person acts a certain way that they believe that`s consistent with guilt.

It`s not necessarily always consistent with guilt. It may be consistent with some other form of behavior that can be explained. I`m not sitting here on national television saying one way or the other. I was involved in a very limited way in this case. Mr. Baez obtained me to get the death penalty waived. I got it waived.

Four months after they found the body, they decided to seek the death penalty again. And I have concerns now that whoever comes in on this is going to look at it with fresh eyes and not be predisposed to any other theories that the defense may have because when we`re talking about death, we`re talking about the real thing, where this woman may ultimately be executed. And we need someone who is really familiar with this to come in and do the job that needs to be done.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, yes. You said some very interesting things about how after Caylee was born, Casey became a different person. We`re going to dive into that in just a second.

Fantastic panel, stay right there. More Casey Anthony drama on the way.

Don`t forget, "NANCY GRACE" up at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. She will have the very latest developments in this case. And we will have much more analysis right here on ISSUES.

Why do you think George and Cindy still have a private eye working on the case? Yes, that`s true. They do. Call 1-877-JVM-SAYS; 1-877-586- 7297. Let me know.

Then, could a convicted drug dealer break new leads in the Haleigh Cummings disappearance? I`ll find out.

But first, Casey Anthony`s parents have been very vocal, perhaps too vocal in their support of Casey. Her brother Lee has been unwavering, too.


JOHN MORGAN, ATTORNEY FOR ZENAIDA GONZALEZ: Was it your impression that night that she was making it up or did you believe that to be true?

L. ANTHONY: To this day I believe everything my sister tells me.




CINDY ANTHONY: If you don`t have hope, you don`t have faith. And I know you don`t have faith.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen, listen, just shut up.

CINDY ANTHONY: No, I`m not shutting up. Tell me I can`t pray?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: A furious Cindy Anthony storming out of the deposition in the Zanny the nanny case. She knew full well TV cameras were rolling. But apparently she could not contain her anger.

Are Cindy`s on-camera appearances helping or hurting her daughter`s case? The phone lines lighting up.

Terry in Florida, your question or thought, ma`am?

TERRY, FLORIDA (via telephone): Yes. Last night on Larry King, Cindy said that she was so devastated while Caylee was missing that she was writing suicide notes. Wouldn`t any grandmother find it strange that while she was thinking of suicide, her granddaughter`s mother was out partying almost every night?


MURPHY: Well, yes. I don`t even know where to go with that. It`s pretty obvious that Casey Anthony`s behavior was inconsistent with a mother who was grieving, period. About anything related to this.

WOODLAND: Wait a minute. They did say on Larry King they believed she was only out one night. That was their answer to that question. When Larry asked her, they said no, she was only out one night. Is that true? I mean, obviously, the photographs speak for themselves.

SCHWARTZ: Why make conclusions about anything? Wendy`s got the whole case figured out. We shouldn`t even have a trial. We shouldn`t even hear the evidence...

MURPHY: No, stop being -- don`t be ridiculous.

SCHWARTZ: We should have a fair jury of her peers.

MURPHY: You think behavioral evidence doesn`t matter. You keep saying behavioral evidence doesn`t matter.

SCHWARTZ: The jury should hate her, but beforehand...


MURPHY: It`s so important to jurors.

SCHWARTZ: You don`t believe in fair trials, that`s your problem.

MURPHY: You can say all you want about that.

SCHWARTZ: You don`t believe in the right to a fair trial. Everyone should have a fair trial.

MURPHY: I didn`t say she shouldn`t get a fair trial.

SCHWARTZ: Yes, you do. Every comment, she shouldn`t have a fair trial.

MURPHY: I said stop, stop saying it`s ok for the parents to do PR nonsense.


SCHWARTZ: Did you ever hear of the sixth amendment? The right to a fair trial?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think what Wendy`s saying is that with their explanations, they might be actually asking us to suspend disbelief.

But I want to bring in Terence Lenamon back. You were her death penalty attorney. You wrote in a court document that after Caylee`s birth, people noticed a different person. That Casey`s spending, bad check writing, multiple unstable relationships, indicated episodes of extreme emotional disturbance.

So this idea that she just went out once, in essence you`re saying, yes, she was acting in a very bizarre way?

LENAMON: Let me emphasize the importance of what a role of the death penalty lawyer is going to be in this case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to ask you about that. I want to ask you about her behavior.

LENAMON: I`m going to follow that up.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Just go right to it because we don`t have -- we have an hour but not to answer your question.

LENAMON: In my 30-page waiver letter, I footnoted 130 specific factual entries all from newspaper and media. Everything I talked about that you just mentioned came from the public. This was dissected to the public. This was an independent investigation.

I spent this weekend in a six-hour course dealing with trauma. You`re talking about the Anthonys and why they`re doing things the way they`re doing it. Every individual, whether they`re a child, or a 20-year-old girl who just had a baby, or a parent whose child has been accused of murder, deals with trauma in a different way.

This is the way the Anthonys are dealing with it. Whether Wendy agrees with it...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is the ugly coping. Well, wait a second. You said you disagreed with it...

LENAMON: ...or you agree with it or not, this is a response to trauma. And there`s explanations behind it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but you said you disagreed with Jose Baez and he appears to be going with what you`re saying, the ugly coping defense. That`s in a nutshell what they call it.

LENAMON: I don`t know what Jose`s defense is. I know what I would do. I know how I would approach this case. I`m not the lawyer in this case.

MURPHY: You`re being ridiculous about one thing, all right? You keep saying her mental health matters. Her mental health matters. Well, that`s a kind of behavioral evidence. You know what? The jury`s going to judge her other behavioral evidence.


WOODLAND: Wendy, that matters in Florida because she`s facing death. So if she`s found guilty, they present mitigation.


LENAMON: ...of why she`s behaving this way, during the guilt phase, and the jury believes that because during whatever period of time, whether it`s five days or 30 days, they believe that she was acting this way because of some traumatic event, mental illness, something that they -- the 12 jurors, not you, Wendy, not you, Jane, 12 jurors decide they believe this. Guess what. She`s walking out the door.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on, guys. I need to get more calls in.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Where`s my gavel?

Reggie, Colorado, your question or thought.

REGGIE, COLORADO (via telephone): Yes. Hi Jane. I think your show is top of the block.


REGGIE: My whole thing that I`m getting out of this is it`s a carbon copy of the Scott Peterson case. The parents being in denial in the face of all the evidence that points back to no one but Casey Anthony. And she knows where Scott Peterson ended up. That`s all I have to say. Thank you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Debbie Magids, I think the bigger point is the parents always defend their children. That`s what parents do and certainly shouldn`t attack Cindy and George for doing that.

It`s just if we`re wondering if it`s going to really help them what they`re saying.

MAGIDS: Well, I was just going to say and I support that. I think there`s too much anger going towards the parents instead of where the anger belongs. I mean, if Casey killed her daughter, that`s where the anger belongs.

Parents have the right to defend their child. I do agree, I think them doing this, they`re trying to help, and they`re probably hurting. But I understand from a psychological perspective why they`re trying do it. They do not want their daughter to die or go to jail.

And it`s unfathomable for them to even believe that their daughter killed their granddaughter. They`re in a tough position, these parents.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: They really are. We have to leave it right there.

LENAMON: And Jane, can I interrupt...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Can I ask you to come back? I love you. I think you`re great, articulate, but we ran out of time.

Great panel, everyone.

More analysis of this case in just a little bit later. And Terence, if you want to stick around, we want to keep you around for the next segment.

A man accused of drowning his wife on their honeymoon in Australia. I`ll tell you what police allege may have led the man to kill.

Reality TV stars Jon and Kate Gosselin could be splitting up. We`ll have the very latest on this scandal.


In the "Spotlight" tonight: honeymoon horror as a man allegedly drowns his new wife on a diving trip to Australia. Alabama native, Gabe Watson turned himself in to Australian authorities yesterday. He`s being charged with the death of his wife Tina Watson during a scuba diving trip to Australia`s Great Barrier Reef back in 2003 just, get this, 11 days after their wedding.

The horrifying image you are looking at is wife Tina lying motionless -- there she is right in the corner -- with her arms outstretched on the ocean floor. Can you say honeymoon over? Initially ruled an accident, the death was changed to homicide last year after police revealed Watson changed his story 16 times.

Watson had told police his wife panicked in a strong current and he returned to the surface for help. But the problem with that is Watson was a certified rescue diver trained to deal with exactly that kind of situation. So why did he need to go away to get help?

Joining me now by phone -- Matt Murphy, morning show host for 1070 WAPI out of Alabama which is the suspect`s and victim`s home state. Matt, Australian authorities say a possible motive might be his wife`s insurance policy. What else can you tell us about this bizarre case?

MATT MURPHY, MORNING SHOW HOST, 1070 WAPI, ALABAMA: Well, Jane, first of all, thanks for inviting me. I appreciate the opportunity to talk about this case that we`ve been talking about in Alabama for quite some time.

I tell you, the insurance money really points to Gabe Watson for those who believe that Watson is culpable in the death of his wife. Her father, Tina`s father believes, and states on the record, that Tina told him that he gave -- asked her to change the insurance policy directly before the honeymoon flight. Wanted her to up the insurance policy and put it in his name.

She told Gabe, according to her father, that she did that. But she didn`t do it. She left it in her father`s name. So that might present a motive.

Also, really this got on the radar screen in Alabama in March of 2005, Jane, when he, Gabe Watson, went after the travel company to get some money back, and this is obviously after he discovered that he would get none of the insurance money because all of that was in her father`s name.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I always say, follow the money. Tina Watson`s family always had doubts, as you just heard, about her husband`s assertion that she panicked in a strong current. Listen to what her dad said just last year.


TOMMY THOMAS, TINA WATSON`S FATHER: You had a diver that was on the (INAUDIBLE) port with him that came to see me. And he asked me to relay the story that I was told. And after I relayed what I was told, to him, he told me, that that didn`t happen. And started telling me all the reasons why it didn`t happen.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Watson reportedly changed his story 16 times. How did that play a role in these charges being brought? Did he essentially bring suspicion upon himself?

MURPHY: I tell you, Jane, the crux of this, I believe, is the money trail. And it`s further the fact that this guy did change his story so much so soon afterwards.

If you read the reports of the detectives in Townsville, Australia, you know he changed his story five days after her death. He volunteered further information. He asked to be re-interviewed so he could kind of correct his story.

There are those in Helena, Alabama where Tina`s from and in Hoover, Alabama, that completely and totally agree with Tina`s father. There is a contingent in Alabama that believe that Gabe is being set up by Australian officials for what reason we don`t know six years after the event. But it all leads back for many of us in Alabama to the money and Gabe Watson.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hey, Matt, we`re out of time. Come back soon. Love to have you.

Casey Anthony`s parents sit down with Larry King. You don`t want to miss this. Next.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Another crazy turn in the Haleigh Cummings disappearance. Investigative journalist Art Harris says a convicted drug dealer is pounding the pavement in search of the 5-year-old child. Could the dealer use his street sources to dig up new leads?

And "Jon Minus Kate Plus Eight." Reality TV stars Jon and Kate Gosselin could be calling their marriage quits. So what will happen to their eight kids who are already living under the media microscope?

Those stories, plus explosive testimony in the case against Darrell Littlejohn accused of brutally torturing and murdering a beautiful 24-year- old grad student.

But first, back with my fantastic panel: Rebecca Rose Woodland, criminal defense attorney and David Schwartz, criminal defense attorney and Debbie Magids, psychologist, along with -- we`re very happy to have Terence Lenamon, Casey`s former death penalty qualified attorney.

And we`re talking about the Cindy and George Anthony public relations road show. Is it working or is it back-firing?

Phone lines still lighting up. Hollis in Ohio, your question or thought ma`am?

HOLLIS, OHIO (via telephone): Yes hi, Jane.


HOLLIS: I`m wondering if you also feel like I do, that Cindy Anthony is also partly responsible for Caylee`s death. Early on, after Caylee was born, Casey Anthony told the truth for once in her life, and said she didn`t want to be a mother, wanted to give Caylee up for adoption.

Cindy Anthony puts her foot down and says, no way. And then Cindy Anthony, all confident, takes no responsibility and, you know, leaves Casey an unfit mother. And I think she`s partly responsible. And Caylee might still be alive if the adoption happened.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, very, very well articulated comment. Debbie Magids, we never want to pass judgment, but this is a cautionary tale. All of these cases are cautionary tales about trying to control somebody else`s life and their decisions.

DEBBIE MAGIDS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes. You know, these things don`t happen in a vacuum. And everything starts with our parents in our childhood. And yes I think this caller makes a really good point.

And truthfully, when I watched Cindy on these interviews, I think there`s a lot of guilt in her. I think it spews out of her pores. I think she`s guilty about certain things she did with her daughter. I also think she feels guilty about things like the initial phone call she made saying her granddaughter`s missing and she smells a dead body in her daughter`s car.

So I think she`s trying to make up for a lot of guilt that happened way before this case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well Terence Lenamon, as Casey`s former death penalty attorney, I don`t know how much contact you have with the family, but obviously they`re going through hell. What is your analysis of this mother/daughter relationship that the entire nation seems so obsessed with?

TERENCE LENAMON, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER DEATH PENALTY ATTORNEY: Well, I think the entire nation has seen a lot more of the relationship than I got to see when I was involved. If you remember, I was involved for a very short period of time. I met with the Anthonys.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you met with the Anthonys.

LENAMON: On several occasions.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean, you`ve seen these people face to face, which is totally different from seeing somebody on TV. Do you think essentially that they`re behaving in a self-destructive fashion by going on and talking so much and then bringing attention to some of the very issues that are not necessarily flattering to their daughter?

LENAMON: You know, Dr. Magids pointed out something -- and something happened very interesting and dynamically in the studio within the last 15 minutes, as Wendy came out screaming and yelling about the Anthonys and the Dr. Magids came in and talked about coping skills and how people are dealing with it.

And you notice that Wendy toned down her accusations against the Anthonys. There are a lot of things we don`t agree with, both you and I, myself and Wendy, about the way the Anthonys are handling this.

But this is a coping situation for them. Now, if I was the lawyer, I would be advising differently than what`s going on now. But I am not the lawyer.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What would you advise differently?

LENAMON: I just don`t think it`s -- I think this should not be played out in the press at all.



LENAMON: This entire case should not be played out in the press.

SCHWARTZ: I totally agree. I think it would help their daughter if they stayed out of the press, and out of the limelight. And I`m not quite sure what the strategy is to go on all these talk shows. I really don`t. They`re not helping.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It reminds me of a case that I covered, Lana Clarkson, a beautiful actress who actually lived not far from her house in Venice, California, at one point murdered by Phil Specter.

And I knew of some people involved in the case and I begged them, please have the family go on camera, please and they refused. They just wouldn`t talk. They only did one or two interviews. It took years for Phil Specter to get convicted.

First there was a mistrial. And I kept saying, I wish they had talked. But you know in the end their strategy worked. They didn`t say a word and he was convicted ultimately.

Is there a lesson there, Rebecca?

REBECCA ROSE WOODLAND, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sure. Actually I know -- I know her brother. So I thought the same thing. And he refused to go on any shows. He says, "He will get convicted. One day, we know it. She was such a wonderful young girl. But we don`t want anything to discuss in public."

And in this case, I agree with David. These people should not be talking on air. They do not properly present, because they are not attorneys they do not understand what is going to happen at trial. And it is very serious.


ROSE WOODLAND: I think they should understand that.

SCHWARTZ: And I think people should get convicted in the courtroom, and not in the media.

ROSE WOODLAND: Absolutely.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Terence, I just want to invite you back, thank you for engaging in a very...

LENAMON: Thank you Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ...fiery debate and we just want to try to learn from this case too. So please come back as we update this story.

Another bizarre twist in the search for 5-year-old Haleigh Cummings, authorities continue their meticulous investigation into little Haleigh`s disappearance. But they do not believe they have a stranger abduction case on their hands.

Meantime -- get this -- just last night, in the wee hours of the morning, into this morning, and just 75 miles away from the Cummings` Satsuma, Florida home, an intensive kidnapping of a 4-year-old girl in Orlando and it was foiled by the little girl`s blood curdling scream.

This is the suspect believed to have broken into that Orlando home in an attempt to snatch that child. Her parents were jarred awake by their daughter`s screaming. Thank goodness those screams chased that man away. That young girl is ok tonight.

Now, you will remember that the teen bride of Haleigh`s dad, Misty Croslin, the last person to see little Haleigh -- she disappeared on Misty`s watch -- told cops she woke up to go to the bathroom and Haleigh was gone.

If that story is correct, it would appear little Haleigh who was reportedly terrified of the dark never screamed. Why didn`t little Haleigh scream? Are authorities right? Was her abductor somebody the child knew?

Haleigh`s dad, Ron Cummings, continues to plead for any tips that will lead to his daughter`s safe return.


RONALD CUMMINGS, HALEIGH`S FATHER: I want to ask you to just please, please keep looking. Keep going, just whatever you think, calling in, it doesn`t matter. Just keep looking. Thanks for everything you`ve done.

And Haleigh, if you`re watching, baby, I love you. And we`re still looking for you.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Meantime, do cops have a drug dealer informant helping them chase down leads in this case?

I`m joined now by investigator journalist Art Harris from the Web site, "The Bald Truth," an excellent site. Art has been covering this case from the very start.

Art, what is the latest with this convicted drug dealer? The cast of characters in this story is something that...


VELEZ-MITCHELL: ...a Pulitzer prize-winning author could not come up with.

HARRIS: The pop sub-culture of crime in America...


HARRIS: ...Jane. And this guy is Jerome Williams (ph) 37 years old. A convicted felon who`s had a number of drug convictions, served his time in prison. Suddenly he`s out and under his thumb are two of the young women who are close to Misty and the family. There is "Nay Nay" Kristina Prevatt who drove Misty on her last weekend...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But who is this guy? Let me ask you this guy?

HARRIS: This guy, Jerome Williams, is someone who bonded the two girls out of jail. And they were living with him.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And he`s a guy who thinks he can help out because he`s got a lot of connections in the drug world?

HARRIS: I talked to him last week, Kim Picazio, Sheffield -- Crystal Sheffield`s lawyer talked to him. Suddenly he was thinking, "Gosh, maybe I can change my life -- turn my life around. And I can dig into, you know, the people I know on the street. I may be able to find some of the drug dealers who actually knew Misty and others close to the family."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And why would he do that? What would he get out of it?

HARRIS: He would get possible immunity. He would get a $35,000 reward and faces multiple drug trafficking charges. He`s behind bars, arrested this week again. And no bond this time for cocaine possession, illegal substance.

So he needed a deal. Cops were actually upbeat thinking that if anybody could get into the naked underbelly of Putnam County, it could be him. But they are very disappointed, Jane, because his leads turned out to be a bust.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, the cast of characters in this case, is to put it mildly, confusing. And we will try to break it down. And I hope you have a notepad.

There is Misty Croslin, she was with Haleigh, the night she went missing and later married Haleigh`s dad Ron which some feel is very odd. Misty was partying with another woman, "Nay Nay" -- there is "Nay Nay" the weekend before Haleigh went missing. And Misty was fighting with another woman, Amber Brooks. Ok, there s Amber Brooks, Amber is reportedly the mother of one of Ron Cummings` other children, Jordan.

Now, both "Nay Nay" and Amber have been hanging around with the man we just talked about, Jerome Williams, the convicted drug dealer who allegedly has links to two convicted child predators and was trying to use his sources to find Haleigh.

What are cops saying about all these connections and what about the child predators?

HARRIS: Well, they are trying to keep the focus on what they know and that`s a missing time line. A lot of gaps in what Misty Croslin says happened that night.

As for the child predators, Jane, there are 247 registered sex offenders in Putnam County, and they say they have looked at the ankle bracelet reports, the GPS, you know, logs, and none of them were near the trailer that night.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I have ten seconds. Why do you think Ron is standing by Misty, if Misty`s stories, according to cops, are filled with inconsistencies?

HARRIS: Well Jane, he`s told me, he`s told others, he loves the girl and can`t explain some of her behavior. But, you know, they`re in it.


HARRIS: And they`re -- through thick or thin.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Art, we want to keep you coming back updating this story. We want to find this little girl alive.

A quick programming note, be sure to tune in tomorrow at 7:00 p.m. Eastern. For a special "ISSUES Investigation: Human Hunters." I will analyze America`s most infamous serial killers. And we will hear in their own words what drove them to become killing machines. That is tomorrow night, right here at 7:00.

We will be back with the very latest courtroom drama from the Imette St. Guillen`s murder trial.

Plus, Jon and Kate Gosselin, from the hit reality show "Jon and Kate Plus Eight," they could be splitting up. Is infidelity to blame? Give me a holler, 1-877-JVM-SAYS. I want to hear what you think about this.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: "Jon and Kate Plus Eight, Minus Jon?" The reality stars could be splitting up. I will tell you if the hit show will survive.

But first, "Top of the Block" tonight.

Darrell Littlejohn on trial for the brutal and I mean brutal murder of beautiful Imette St. Guillen. Yesterday, defense attorneys went on the attack, grilling Danny Dorrian, the manager of the bar where Imette was last seen alive in an effort to pin the blame on the privileged playboy.

The defense got him to admit allegedly he was a drug user and they claimed Dorrian pointed the finger at Littlejohn only after his powerful dad hired a team of attorneys who discovered Littlejohn`s long rap sheet.

Well, today the finger got pointed back at the defendant, Darrell Littlejohn. His ex testified Littlejohn wanted her to lie and say he was visiting his sick mother in the hours after the murder.

But cell phone records reportedly put Littlejohn in almost the exact spot that St. Guillen`s very brutalized body was found. Here on ISSUES we will stay on top of this really sadistic case. It is just one that has horrified all of New York.

That is tonight`s "Top of the Block."

New developments tonight in the rocky relationship of the reality TV`s most infamous couple, Jon and Kate Gosselin, after rumors swirled that each half of the relationship was having an affair. Kate`s brother tells RadarOnline the marriage is over.


KEVIN KREIDER, KATE GOSSELIN`S BROTHER: Six months ago Kate came to Jon and said, you know, "Hey, it`s over." And I don`t think typically I would say this, but they`re showing America that they`re a thriving family. And it`s not what they`re living.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: What`s more, Kate herself tells "People" magazine she doesn`t know if she and Jon are in the same place anymore. Could Jon soon be minus Kate plus eight? "Star" magazine reports Kate`s sister-in-law claims they`re marriage is governed by a secret contract where Jon is allowed to see other women as long as he stays on the show.

Well, we`re going to examine that claim.

In a meantime, production for the 5th season of the reality show "Jon & Kate Plus 8" marches on. The one-hour premiere set to run in less than two weeks and will reportedly focus on the problems in their marriage. You think? I would think they would have to include that.

Will the reality program sugar coat it or give us, well, reality? What do you think? I`m taking your calls.

Straight to my fantastic panel: Debbie Magids, psychologist and Suzanne Rozdeba, contributing editor for "Star" magazine. Plus, we`re delighted to have A.J. Hammer, host of HLN`s "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" which airs every week night at 11:00 p.m. Eastern right here.

A.J., so many scandals swirling, can you sort it out for us?

A.J. HAMMER, HOST, "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT": No. I can`t. My head is going to explode, Jane.


HAMMER: Last week Kate was saying, and in fact to our own Larry King on CNN saying, "I am hesitant to believe any of these stories about my husband, Jon, cheating and all the allegations that have been made."

And now you mention the "People" magazine article, that issue is in stores tomorrow. And in that article, she`s saying, "Now you know what, I don`t think I know if I believe him. And I don`t think I know the whole truth." And as you said, she`s saying, "I don`t think we`re in the same place anymore. Or even on the same page. Or want the same things out of it."

So we`re hearing all kinds of things. Allegations against her, that she`s cheating on her husband with her bodyguard. She has vehemently denied those. And boy is she angry about all of it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes. Well, let`s just recap and review. Because you really do need one of those little note cards for this one, too. Rumors that Jon was having an affair with a 23-year-old teacher surfaced, he and the teacher deny that.

Now, Kate, as A.J. just mentioned, dogged with rumors that some suggest she`s having an affair with her bodyguard. Kate and the bodyguard deny it. But it was Kate`s own brother who told RadarOnline about Kate`s alleged affair. Listen to this.


KREIDER: Jon came to our door one day and told Jody that he suspects that Steve the bodyguard. And he feels that he`s getting the bad rap. But he feels that Kate`s not being faithful either.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: But to put this in perspective, "Star" magazine says this brother and his wife wanted to get paid for being on the reality show and Kate allegedly wouldn`t allow that.

So Suzanne Rozdeba, you are with "Star" magazine, could they be -- could they have a grudge?

SUZANNE ROZDEBA, STAR MAGAZINE: Oh, you know what, this whole marriage is a complete sham. And you know what? I interviewed Kevin and Jody in person, during that interview, and they said that Jon told them in person that he believes that Kate is having an affair with the bodyguard.

Not only that, when Kate comes home and is actually with the kids, when she`s not in her bookstore and doing everything else, Jon is sleeping above the garage. They are not sleeping together. And that she came to Jon with a contract six months ago and said, "This marriage is over. As long as you show up for taping, you can have girlfriends on the side. I just want you to pretend like this is a big happy family." It`s a sham.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s -- you know, that`s a very, very serious charge, A.J. Hammer.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean, what can we say about something like that? Because we have no independent confirmation.

HAMMER: Well, that`s exactly right. And Suzanne, you spoke with him, but I`ve got to tell you, I watched the video on RadarOnline and I`m thinking why should I believe this? You know what I`m saying, it`s tough.

We don`t know. Did money change hands there? What`s going on? Where is the credibility?

Now, in the past when Kate`s brother came out and was saying some things about the affair and saying that the marriage wasn`t working, she denied that as well.

Well, we don`t know what`s going on as far as who`s telling the truth, but I have a really hard time taking that brother-in-law on his word particularly, if he was upset because he wasn`t getting paid to appear on that reality show.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Debbie Magids, we only have a couple of seconds before the break, but what impact is this is going to have on the kids?

MAGIDS: It`s going to have a terrible impact on the kids. I mean, first of all, putting kids on TV to begin with has a terrible impact on them. And now having this circus around them it`s going to affect them now but really in the long run, as they grow up and this is what they have to remember with their childhood experience.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, more reality show turmoil when we come right back; "Jon and Kate Plus 8."



KATE GOSSELIN, "JON & KATE PLUS 8": It`s a very, very full-time job. It comes with a lot of public, you know, scrutiny as is evidenced in the current media.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Kate Gosselin talking to CNN`s Larry King about the reality show "Jon & Kate Plus 8," the show is set to start it`s fifth season in less than two weeks despite allegations that both Jon and Kate have been unfaithful which they both deny but they administration, they`ve problems, people.

Annie, Indiana, your question or thoughts.

ANNIE, INDIANA (via telephone): Hi, Jane, thanks for taking my call.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thanks for calling.

ANNIE: I watch you every night.


ANNIE: I want to know at the end of the season Kate said that they were going to be moving. Has that happened? And also are they separated and if they are, who has the children?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Suzanne Rozdeba?

ROZDEBA: Absolutely. They did move. They used to live only a couple of doors down from Kate`s brother, Kevin. They moved to a larger home. And right now they aren`t saying that they are separated, but from what Kevin has told us the relationship really is in turmoil and Jon is not in the same bedroom with Kate when they are home.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Jon and Kate clearly argued during the show "Jon & Kate Plus 8," watch this.


KATE GOSSELIN: I thought we agreed that only Friday and Saturday nights we watch movies.


KATE GOSSELIN: Ok, is what you say every time I confront you about it. She`s up there throwing a royal fit and has all of the kids awake because she wants the TV back on.

JON GOSSELIN: No, I let her watch a couple of minutes of something and then she falls asleep.

KATE GOSSELIN: That is why our kids don`t sleep anymore. TV is not a babysitter.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, A.J. Hammer, we`ve seen this with so many reality shows. If you want to know why their marriage is in trouble I think you just have to look at the fact. Imagine having an argument with the TV cameras rolling. I mean, is that going to encourage intimacy?

HAMMER: Yes, absolutely. That`s exactly what it`s going to do, Jane. No, I mean, it`s ridiculous. We`ve seen it time and time again. And I`ve got to tell you, I feel so terribly for these kids.

Can you just imagine that they`re going to have the scrapbook to look back on years from now or they`ll be in schools and said, hey, I saw that fight that your parents were having the other night on TV.

You know, throughout this whole deal, Kate said, I want to protect my children regardless of what happens. Well, guess what? You want to protect your children, take them the heck off television.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree 100 percent.

ROZDEBA: I do to.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And she`s now saying and I`m the victim and oh, the media. You know what, if you`re going to turn your whole family into a commodity don`t be shocked when other people decide to jump on that bandwagon and try to make a buck, too. And you`ve lost the moral high ground unfortunately, "Kate & Jon plus 8" except for the eight, they`re still ok.

Thanks to my fabulous panel for joining me tonight.

Got a question or comment about the show, click on and send me your email. You are watching ISSUES on HLN.