Return to Transcripts main page
ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL
New Info Emerging on Drugs and Michael Jackson
Aired July 9, 2009 - 19:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Today, another flurry of drug revelations in the death of Michael Jackson. Long-time friend and dermatologist Arnie Klein admits he gave the star Demerol but insists he warned Jackson about the powerful drugs he was using.
Meantime, sources close to the family say Janet Jackson was so distraught over Michael`s lifestyle that she tried to stage an intervention with the siblings. But the legend reportedly ordered his security guards to keep his own family out.
And the custody battle heats up. Dr. Klein admits he donated his sperm to a sperm bank. That explains his refusal to say flat-out he`s not the father of Jackson`s kids. But now Klein even says he`ll take a DNA test. Will it really come to that?
Then, did a light unraveling lead to the Steve McNair murder-suicide. Cops say he was killed in his sleep by his 20-year-old mistress before she turned the gun on herself. Now disturbing details emerge about the girlfriend`s downward spiral, including her DUI just days before the massacre. We`ll analyze the warning signs and play you the creepy 911 call from the gruesome scene.
ISSUES starts now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Breaking news tonight in the tragic death of Michael Jackson. The "Los Angeles Times" now reporting that the coroner`s office has subpoenaed the medical records and files from a number of doctors who treated the King of Pop.
One doctor on that list is Michael Jackson`s friend and dermatologist, Dr. Arnie Klein. That doctor dropped a shocker last night on "LARRY KING LIVE." He admits to giving Jackson the narcotic painkiller Demerol.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": What was the strongest medication you gave him?
DR. ARNIE KLEIN, MICHAEL JACKSON`S DERMATOLOGIST: I once -- on occasion gave him Demerol to sedate him. And that was about the strongest medicine I ever used.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Dr. Klein insists he only did what was appropriate for pain relief during medical procedures. Dr. Klein went on to say, he knew that Jackson had used anesthesia to go to sleep while on tour. Klein says he even warned Michael not to keep taking powerful surgical knockout drugs like Diprivan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Did Michael tell you he used Diprivan?
KLEIN: I knew at one point that he was using Diprivan when he was on tour in Germany. And so he was using it with an anesthesiologist to go to sleep at night. I told him he was absolutely insane. I said, "You have to understand that this drug, you can`t repeatedly take." Because what happens with narcotics, no matter what you took, you build a tolerance to them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is for sure. Plus, dermatologist Arnie Klein goes into more depth about the possibility that he could be the dad of Jackson`s kids.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KLEIN: I think to the best of my knowledge I`m not the pop. I`m going to tell you that this discussion, however, is between Michael, his children and this person. It`s not to be discussed who the father is over national television.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But I guess it is being discussed that way. You will not believe what else this doctor had to say about possibly being the dad and the nature of Jackson`s relationship with his ex-wife, Debbie Rowe?
Meantime, TMZ reports the doctor who was with Michael Jackson when he collapsed and died was once under investigation for an alleged botched surgery that left a man dead.
And new revelations that the pop star`s sister, Janet Jackson, was reportedly so worried, distraught about her brother and his prescription drug use, that she tried to lead a family intervention. But sources tell CNN the pop star ordered security guards not to let family members into his home, and he wouldn`t even take calls from his mom, Katherine.
So much to get to tonight. Straight out to my fantastic expert panel: Dr. Dave Archer, clinical psychiatrist; Michael Cardoza, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor who attended the Jackson criminal trial; Tanya Acker, attorney and blogger for the Huffington Post; and Aphrodite Jones, author of "Michael Jackson Conspiracy." And by phone, Stacey Brown, author of "Michael Jackson: The Man Behind the Mask." Plus, Bryan Monroe, CNN contributor.
Bryan, you were the very last journalist to interview Michael Jackson before he died. Did he seem drugged out to you? Did you ever get a sense his family was trying to intervene or that addiction had created a rift between Michael and his siblings?
BRYAN MONROE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, you know, when I sat down and talked with him around September of 2007, that was within eight or nine months of when this alleged intervention happened, or attempted intervention with Janet, Rebbie, Randy and some other members of the family that never actually made it through, because apparently Michael did not want to have that conversation.
But let me tell you, when I sat there with Michael, he was alert; he was active, energetic. He did a lot of talking. I went back and listened to some of the tape. And he was talking a mile a minute. Very passionate about his creative process and about his -- the work that he was doing. So I did not see any sign that he was on anything. And he was on his A-game.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Once again, it doesn`t add up. You`re looking at him dancing a couple of days before he died. And it doesn`t look like a person who`s drugged up doing those kinds of moves.
Now, breaking news just in. The L.A. County Coroner`s Office, according to "The L.A. Times" has subpoenaed the medical records of a number of doctors. And this includes radiology and psychiatric records.
Aphrodite Jones, I know you`ve got some sources at the LAPD. What are you learning about how they`re tracking down these doctors?
APHRODITE JONES, AUTHOR, "MICHAEL JACKSON CONSPIRACY": What I have heard through someone connected to the LAPD is that the security guards for Michael Jackson have now confirmed that he was being driven around, doctor- shopping, and that he would be taken to various places, going in to see a doctor, seeming very lucid, and coming out like a different person, you know, completely drugged out.
And I think as time progresses we`re going to see validation of this coming from not only the security guards but the subpoenas that they`re going to start to receive. And names are going to start to be named.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Michael Cardoza, you were there at the criminal trial we all attended, along with Aphrodite Jones and myself. And we saw Michael Jackson many times. Sometimes he appeared drugged out; sometimes he appeared just merely frail.
MICHAEL CARDOZA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He did. That was an awfully -- an awful experience for him. Going through that trial is an awful lot of pressure. We, as attorneys, when we go through a trial of that magnitude, it`s an awful lot of pressure on us. You can imagine what it must have been for Michael Jackson.
But Jane, the thought that keeps coming into my mind is, No. 1, Michael Jackson was a great talent. There`s no disputing that. But more importantly, whose fault was his death? It seems to me that, when you get to the bottom line, it was Michael`s fault. Shouldn`t he have taken responsibility for his own life?
There are a lot of people that deal with alcoholism, drug problems. And when they finally decide to deal with it themselves, they get themselves through it...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t know. I don`t know if I agree with that. Because Tanya Acker, let`s face it, in the Anna Nicole Smith case, you have two doctors now facing charges. They say they`re not guilty. But we`re talking about prescription drugs here, and the appropriate administration...
CARDOZA: What`s the difference? If it`s prescription or not prescription? It makes no difference. He is responsible for himself.
DAVE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: He is responsible for himself...
TANYA ACKER, ATTORNEY/BLOGGER: Excuse me one second.
ARCHER: He`s responsible for himself but...
ACKER: There`s no question that Michael Jackson is responsible or was responsible for himself. By the same token, doctors take a Hippocratic Oath, and doctors have a responsibility, a legal responsibility, not to dispense drugs to people who they know -- to addicts, to known addicts.
CARDOZA: But I think...
ACKER: And that`s why -- one second, one second -- that`s why, you know, for instance, if you go to the doctor and you keep saying, "I need more Demerol; I need more Demerol," they have a professional obligation not simply just to hand it over to you. I mean, there is a duty there.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: If I go to get my teeth cleaned and say, "I want Demerol because I`m getting my teen clothed," I would think that my dentist would say, "You know what, honey? You`re not getting Demerol, even though you might want it."
And I know in emergency rooms addicts go in pretending to have kidney stones, and they pretend to be in incredible pain. That`s why they do a whole bunch of tests now before they give anybody morphine for kidney stones...
ARCHER: Jane, it`s very, very difficult, though, when you have an individual...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Archer, go ahead.
ARCHER: Yes, it`s very difficult when you have an individual with his amount of money, his amount of power. Because even a middle-class person can go from doctor to doctor to doctor, be very lucid going in, and get script after script after script. So many times the doctors don`t know.
There is a movement to get all the pharmacies united through the Internet so we`ll one day be able to tell, but that has not been done yet. In his case, with his money and his power, it would be hard for these doctors to know that, hey, this guy`s seeing five other people, six other people, and getting all these drugs.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Stacey Brown, could this all...
CARDOZA: In the end it does come down to personal responsibility.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second. Stacey Brown, you`re on the phone. But you wrote the book on Michael Jackson, one of several. We`re hearing, of course, when he was on tour -- he did three world tours. Dr. Arnie Klein said last night he knew he was taking Diprivan when he was on tour in Germany with an anesthesiologist. Could we end up having this case go international? Because with Michael Jackson`s power and money and his tours, he could have easily be getting his drugs from overseas.
STACEY BROWN, AUTHOR, "MICHAEL JACKSON: THE MAN BEHIND THE MASK" (via phone): Absolutely. You`re going to look at Germany, as far as Romania where he -- and Bucharest, well, where he famously had this machine with him that he would hook up to every night. We all heard the stories. And the stories, they are like you said, they`re in a book that I wrote with Bob Jones. But more than that, they`ve been talked about openly amongst his family.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Michael Cardoza, is there such a thing as an international subpoena if these doctors are overseas?
CARDOZA: Certainly you can get an international subpoena, if somehow you can tie them to this case. I mean, it would be very, very difficult to do. You`d have to go through all sorts of diplomatic channels. I doubt if they`d be able to pull it off. But is it possible at times? Certainly.
But again, getting back to what I said earlier, Michael is ultimately responsible. I wasn`t saying the doctor`s responsibility is abrogated, because they did assist in giving him the drugs. But I`ll tell you what. If he couldn`t get it, quote-unquote, legally, he would have gone to the streets and got it illegally.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we don`t know that for sure.
CARDOZA: ... get it any way he wanted.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think it`s hard to say that. All right. Everybody, stand by. Lots more on the Jackson death probe. Will the toxicology report provide the answers to all the questions about Jackson`s reported drug use?
Give me a call: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297. And weigh in.
And what about Jackson`s kids? Will we ever find out who the real daddy is? Arnie Klein tells Larry King he will take a DNA test.
But first we learn Michael Jackson brought a mini clinic with him on tour, including an anesthesiologist to put him down when he couldn`t sleep at night. Here`s CNN`s Sanjay Gupta with more on that bizarre scenario.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Is it odd to you as a medical doctor to have an anesthesiologist with somebody on a tour?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Completely odd. No question. Very odd. And to have all that equipment, as well. I never heard of such a thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, POP STAR: I remain out of the country undergoing treatment for dependency on pain medication. This medication was initially prescribed to soothe the excruciating pain that I was suffering after recent reconstructive surgery on my scalp.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The King of Pop back in `93, admitting that he was hooked on painkillers. Sources close to the Jackson family say in 2007, Janet Jackson, his famous sister, so worried about Michael she tried to stage a family intervention.
Apparently, Michael caught wind of it and reportedly ordered security guards not to let his own family in, and he wouldn`t even take his mom Katherine`s calls.
At the time, the Jackson family released a statement denying there was an intervention. Janet courageously refused to sign that statement. Seems like she wanted to be real and face the problem. But the family may have, if these reports are correct, been covering up, which is textbook enabling, which is when you`re co-dependent, you`re hooked on the addict, and you allow them to continue their self-destructive behavior by minimizing, denying and facilitating.
The lines lighting up. Chris, Indiana, your question or thought.
CALLER: I have both, a question and a thought.
CALLER: My question is, the last I heard the toxicology results were not back yet. Why has everyone already decided that he died of an overdose?
I remember buying "Thriller" when I was, I don`t know, 7 or 8 years old, my first album. I want those toxicology results to come back with nothing in his system. I don`t think they will, but I pray that they would.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, listen, you make a good point. Never assume, as they say, is the first rule of journalism. But report after report and comment after comment from individuals close to him are coming in. Reports of the track marks on his arms. Reports of the veins being collapsed, et cetera, et cetera.
CARDOZA: That Diprivan has a half life. And that means it may not be in his system. But that doesn`t mean it wasn`t administered to him. So don`t be surprised if the tox report comes out, and there`s nothing there. That doesn`t mean he didn`t take the Diprivan, though.
ACKER: And as a matter of common sense, people don`t drop dead at 50 of cardiac arrest without some other -- and I really hope -- I think it`s right to not jump to quick conclusions about what was in his system and who prescribed it and who`s responsible, and so on and so forth. I absolutely do think we should take a step back. But if you just look at this on the surface, this was an untimely death that, by most objective accounts, was facilitated by the use of some pharmaceuticals.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask you, Bryan Monroe...
JONES: You`ve got to remember...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Aphrodite, jump in. Jump in for a second. Then we`ll go on.
JONES: I just wanted to say, that you know, if you think about it for a moment, a portion of Michael`s brain has been kept for the forensics, for the -- the medical examiners to look at. And there`s going to be an analysis. It`s going to take four to six weeks for that to be analyzed.
And it will be able to tell us, first of all, Jackson`s past drug abuse and alcohol abuse, as well -- and what they`re going to do is compare that then to the autopsy reports. So it`s going to be a combination of the analysis of his brain tissue, in concert with the...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that could be one of the reasons why he hasn`t been buried yet, because they still have -- the authorities still have a portion of his brain that they`re analyzing, which to me is absolutely mind-boggling.
CARDOZA: You`ve got to...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let Bryan talk for a second.
MONROE: Let me jump in here. The other piece that in effect you saw on Dr. Klein`s interview last night with Larry King, he also mentioned that he prescribed Demerol to Michael to treat lupus.
And lupus is a very serious auto immune disease that disproportionately affects African-Americans. And it`s painful, where the body`s own defenses turn on itself. And prescribing for Demerol for that use is consistent with having lupus because of dealing with the pain, as well as dealing with the pain that he was dealing with through his scalp injuries.
So there were real medical issues happening there that made some legitimate use of painkillers make sense. But did he go overboard? We don`t know.
ARCHER: There`s almost always real medical issues involved in prescribing narcotic pain killers. But that`s the problem. Initially, it`s a real medical issue, and they`re so highly addictive the individual likes them more for the high than they do for the pain relief. So that even when there`s not pain, they crave the drugs.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Michael Jackson openly admitted to being hooked on pain meds in `93. Listen to what his dermatologist said about his addiction last night on "LARRY KING LIVE."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Did Michael have an addiction you were aware of?
KLEIN: Michael at one time had an addiction. He went to England and he withdrew that addiction in a secure setting, where he went off of drugs altogether. And what I told Michael when I met him in this present situation when I was seeing him, that I had to keep reducing the dosage of what he was on, because he came to me with a huge tolerance level.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, as a recovering alcoholic myself, I can say in order for an addict to remain in recovery after rehab, he or she almost always has to work a program of recovery.
Now, Stacey Brown, the author, is there any evidence that Michael Jackson embraced the 12 steps or did any recovery work after getting out of that British detox after admitting that he had a problem in the `90s?
BROWN: Jane, there was absolutely no evidence that I knew of that he was in any type of 12-step program. And his rejection of his family`s attempts at intervention really showed that this was a man that still had a problem, you know, as late as 2007.
And 2007 was not the only intervention attempt. I first was made aware of an intervention in December of 2001. In fact, in that particular intervention, I understand that his words to his family at the time, who tried the intervention in New York City, was that, you know, stay out of my life, I`ll be dead soon anyway.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. And Dr. Archer, in terms of anesthesia addiction, I`ve heard of so many addictions, but I`ve actually never heard of anesthesia addiction before this story broke.
ARCHER: That`s because it doesn`t exist. Because there`s no anesthesiologist out there that would prescribe this to someone out of the operating room except in this case. I`ve never heard of it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, actually, I got an e-mail from somebody saying, "Hey, doctors sometimes get hooked on it." But that was just an e-mail from a viewer. I have no idea whether there`s any truth to that.
OK, everybody. Stand by, so much to cover. More on the emerging reports of drug addiction in this case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERMAINE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S BROTHER: I would love to see him here.
KING: Is there a place for him here?
J. JACKSON: Yes, there`s a special place, right over, maybe the train station, right over there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jermaine Jackson, brother of Michael Jackson, telling Larry King he`d love for Neverland Ranch to be his brother`s final resting place. Now, new reports just in, the state of California may green light that wish. State officials say they haven`t been contacted by the Jackson family, but they say that it`s possible. What`s required is approval from Santa Barbara County.
Michael Cardoza, we were both there covering the trial. The relationship between the Jacksons and Santa Barbara County officials, poison. They were at war.
CARDOZA: Bad. It was terrible. One good thing, Tom Sneddon`s gone. He`s not district attorney there anymore. And if you remember, Michael wrote a song about Tom Sneddon is a bad, bad man. So I`m not sure Sneddon will be able to come back and exert any type of political power.
But I really hope they get it, because if Michael is buried there, can you imagine -- maybe I`m being a little bit crude here -- but can you imagine the money that Neverland will make? It will make Graceland look like a pauper. All sorts millions and millions of people will come.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Aphrodite Jones, do you think that may be one reason why the county would overlook its hatred of the Jacksons?
CARDOZA: They should.
JONES: I think that there`s -- Jane, let me say this. You and I covered this trial together. We know very well that the officials in Santa Barbara did not like Michael. That`s why they went after him with a vengeance, from the police to the sheriffs to the D.A.
But there`s another issue here, which is that the people of the area in Santa Barbara where Neverland is live in a very passive, quiet, you know, beautiful area.
JONES: Yes. And it is -- it is a place that`s pastoral, if you will. And I don`t know that they`re going to use a zoning board that is going to approve a place that would then bring fans and people from around the world to pay tribute to Michael...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hey, but Tanya Acker, is that...
CARDOZA: It would bring money to the county. They want that.
MONROE: ... not a good deal. If you look at trying to get there, 130 miles, two-lane, one road going in and out. It`s not like Graceland, which is in the middle of Memphis. You get off the train, go see Graceland and come back. It`s not -- it could be the right thing to do but it`s far from...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ve got to get to -- let`s get to Judy.
Judy, Arizona, she`s been waiting so long. What`s your question or thought, ma`am?
CALLER: Hi, Jane. I would just like to say that I`m a big fan of your show.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you.
CALLER: And I really, really appreciate you bringing this to air. Because I grew up in Indiana myself. And I`m a big fan of Michael Jackson`s.
But here`s my issue. My issue is, all these doctors who prescribed these medications to Michael Jackson, they`ve had to have known what types of medications that he was on. And as far as the Diprivan put in there also, why didn`t these doctors say no to the Diprivan or no to some of these other medications that he was already...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Ma`am, that`s an excellent point. Sorry to cut you off but we`re running out of time. Tanya Acker, I`m going to give you the last word. Do you think there will be criminal charges against doctors in this case?
ACKER: I think there very well could be. It`s too early to say. But I think that the attorney general needs to look at the prescription prescribing practices of physicians, especially those who treat high- profile individuals. They are not being careful enough.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yeah. It`s a cautionary tale. There`s a prescription drug crisis in America. We all need to look in the mirror and in the medicine cabinet. Thank you, everyone, for the excellent advice.
BROWN: The man in the mirror.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Rabid speculation over the custody battle brewing over Jackson`s kids. Arnie Klein says he`s willing to take a DNA test. Will we ever know who the biological dad is?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The custody battle over Michael Jackson`s kids heats up. Jackson`s dermatologist admits he donated his sperm to a sperm bank. That explains his refusal to say flat-out he`s not the daddy. Now he says he`ll take a DNA test. Will it really come to that?
Then, did a life unraveling lead to the Steve McNair murder-suicide? Cops say the NFL star was killed by his 20-year-old mistress before she turned the gun on herself. We`ll analyze the disturbing details about the girlfriend`s downward spiral.
Tonight, all sides brace for an explosive high-stakes showdown over the custody of Michael Jackson`s children as Monday`s big custody hearing looms. Now shockingly graphic details are emerging about the possible father of Jackson`s two oldest kids Paris and Prince Michael.
Michael Jackson`s dermatologist, Dr. Arnie Klein, appeared on "Larry King Live" last night and continues to fuel speculation over whether he`s the daddy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Earlier today you said you couldn`t answer that one way or the other.
DR. ARNOLD KLEIN, MICHAEL JACKSON`S DERMATOLOGIST: I still can`t answer it absolutely one way or the other.
KING: That means you donated sperm?
KLEIN: I once donated sperm. I don`t know -- you have to know that...
KING: You donated to him?
KLEIN: No, absolutely not.
KING: So you donated sperm?
KLEIN: Once I donated to a sperm bank. But I don`t think I should go over my legal affairs. Because I think to the best of my knowledge I`m not the father.
KING: You don`t feel you have to take a DNA test to prove anything?
KLEIN: If they want me DNA-tested, they can have my DNA. I don`t care at this point.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok, I`m confused. I don`t know about you.
As for the woman who gave birth to Prince Michael and Paris, Debbie Rowe, did she have a sexual relationship with Michael Jackson? Arnie Klein has something to say about that too.
Meantime, Debbie Rowe told an LAPD station, quote, "I want my children." But then her own attorney says, "Hmm, she`s not exactly sure at this moment in time."
TMZ says this is a shot of Debbie weeping as her daughter Paris spoke at the memorial. Could Debbie be having second thoughts and doubts about the whole idea of trying to take these kids from the Jackson clan?
Back out to my fantastic panel: Tanya Acker, attorney and Blogger for the "Huffington Post;" Stacey Honowitz, Florida prosecutor; Dr. Dale Archer, clinical psychiatrist; Aphrodite Jones, author of "Michael Jackson Conspiracy;" Bryan Monroe, CNN contributor and the last person to interview Michael Jackson as a journalist.
Bryan, I`m a little confused. Perhaps those watching at home are a little confused too. Dr. Klein never really explained why he donated sperm to a sperm bank. Whether it was at Michael Jackson`s request, or was it a random act of kindness because he knew he wanted to have kids? What, if anything, do we know about this?
BRYAN MONROE, LAST PERSON TO INTERVIEW MICHAEL JACKSON: Well, that was a fascinating interview that he did with Larry King. And I urge people to go back and check it out on CNN.com.
But if you look at it, he brought it up in the context of paternity. And it was interesting that he talked about his donation to a sperm bank -- to a sperm bank but made it very clear it was not at the behest of Michael.
But the one thing that I think is crystal clear and we saw this at that final scene at the funeral with Paris speaking and the brothers and sisters all around, that those kids are exactly where they belong, inside the Jackson family.
Their aunts, their uncles, their grandparents and their cousins and that`s the support structure, along with their nanny Grace, that...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But where is Grace? I`ve got to jump in here.
Aphrodite Jones, where is Grace? Was she invited to the memorial service? When is the last time -- everybody`s saying she`s fantastic, she`s incredible. Where is she?
APHRODITE JONES, AUTHOR, "MICHAEL JACKSON CONSPIRACY": You know something, Grace Rwaramba who was the nanny worked for Michael for about 17 years. And in that time, you know, was the nanny for I think all but -- for about 12 years, all their lives. She is being held as a part of the suspicion. The Jackson family have actually asked the LAPD to investigate her for any financial trail that they can now look into, in terms of...
JONES: Oh, yes. In terms of what her part could or could not have been in enabling Michael. She claims that she, quote, "prevented him from overdosing on certain occasions." There are mixed reports...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me just say this. A lot of people have -- there has been a lot of false reports of Grace Rwaramba. She`s been quoted all over the world. The London papers said that she`ll say, "No, I never said that I wouldn`t know how to pump somebody`s stomach if had to because I didn`t know how to do that." And I can understand that, I don`t know how to pump anybody`s stomach.
JONES: I can understand that Jane, but what I`m saying to you is, absolutely for a fact that the Jackson family, have asked the LAPD to investigate his finances. Because she was in control of his finances of him and his children and never allowed the Jackson family in.
And that was according to Joe Jackson himself, who told me that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, well let just say this...
TANYA ACKER, ATTORNEY: Jane, can I jump back in and I got a comment for a second?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok, yes, but let me just say this, Grace if you`re watching you`re invited onto the show to tell your side of the story. We`d like to know what you feel about all of this.
And Tanya Acker, take it away.
ACKER: Yes, I just want to jump back to the doctor`s performance on Larry`s show last night. Am I the only person who found this completely bizarre and distasteful?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, you`re not.
ACKER: I mean, I found it completely inappropriate. A lot of the rampant speculation, I didn`t know where he was going with the, "I donated sperm, but not to him," who cares. He knows exactly the suggestion he was making. It was...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What is exactly the suggestion?
ACKER: I think he was trying to put himself in the mix, perhaps, without putting himself in the mix. And it was absurd, like it made absolutely no sense. I think it was completely inappropriate; it`s a bizarre, distasteful display.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, doctor, Dr. Archer...
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Well, the question was asked of him. They asked him the -- Larry King asked him the question specifically.
ACKER: I don`t think he had any business on the show. I don`t think he had any business there.
HONOWITZ: "I donated sperm to a sperm bank. Do I know whether or not I`m the father? I don`t know, if he took sperm from that sperm bank and it was mine, those kids could be mine, I`ll take a DNA test." I don`t know what so unusual about it, the question was posed and he answered the question.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Dr. Archer -- to me the first thing that occurred to me is, why did he do that? Who asked him? And if Michael Jackson asked him to do that, did he ask other men?
DR. DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: Well...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And could he have a pool of a whole bunch of different sperm from different men and then the whole idea would be, we`ll never know. We`ll never know. It`s Russian roulette, with sperm.
ARCHER: Well, and that was my thought on it Jane was that, he did have more than one person that was involved in it. Because otherwise -- I thought the doctor last night was being very coy about the whole thing.
So, yes, I think that there`s a strong possibility, that Michael was involved in that, had several people and that might have been the plan all along. Because he`s so secretive about the kids and he was so secretive that maybe he wanted to have the father be a secret as well.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Just what was the nature, speaking of secrets, of Michael Jackson and Debbie Rowe`s relationship while they were married?
Arnie Klein also broached this subject on "Larry King Live" last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KLEIN: Did she and I have a love affair you want to know. I think she really cared about his welfare. I think...
KING: It was not a sexual relationship, though?
KLEIN: I think they did have sex.
KING: You do?
KLEIN: Yes, I really do. And -- I can`t guarantee that but I think they did have sex in the relationship.
KING: Do you think Michael ever had sex with other children?
KLEIN: I don`t know that answer. Because I would think that it`s possible that he did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Aphy, you have researched Michael Jackson. Do you guy the idea that Michael and Debbie were husband and wife and knew each other in the biblical sense of the word? Are you just speechless at this point, Aphy?
JONES: I`m just saying -- I`m just saying, look, Michael Jackson may or may not have had sex with Debbie Rowe. We`re not in the bedroom of Michael Jackson. But we do know that they were married...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well actually, we were in the bedroom of Michael Jackson during the trial. We watched videotape.
JONES: Well, we did. That`s true, but not with the two of them there. And I can only say they were married for three years, from 1996 to 1999. And at 1999, she decided to turn over the custody to Michael for I think a large sum of money, as I understand it.
HONOWITZ: I think it was probably -- Jane, I would probably -- I mean, I don`t know. But if you look at the relationship, you know, I`m sure there was an agreement put in place ahead of time. Because it`s not really that natural for a mother to say, "Take the kids, I don`t want custody and I`m not even going to visit them."
Obviously, there was some type of agreement made beforehand. "I will have these children we`ll terminate the rights because you`re the one that wants those kids." So I`m sure she was kind of acting in the role of almost a surrogate.
Maybe there was sex at one time. But I don`t think it was a true marriage. I think it was a marriage made for the purposes of him having kids. And that`s what we`re seeing now...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Bryan what was the financial aspect of all that, Bryan?
MONROE: I got to say to be honest with you, who cares?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nobody does. I mean...
MONROE: Whether they had biblical relations or not. I think the important thing is those children. And are those children in the best place?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the reason why...
MONROE: And will end up in the best place.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Bryan, I think the reason why it`s an issue is that she goes into that custody hearing on Monday and seeks custody of these kids and tries to say, "Hey, I`m his ex-wife, so we had a real relationship and this is -- I gave up the kids and got untold numbers of millions of dollars and a house, but I`m really a good mom now because now things have changed."
Those issues actually could, Tanya, become relevant.
ACKER: They could be -- look, the biological parentage certainly bears some relevance. I mean, there`s no question about that. But at the end of the day, the legal standard for determining the custody of these children is their best interests.
And I dare say the judge, the judge...
MONROE: Absolutely. Absolutely.
ACKER: That judge that decides that after having relinquished custody for a large sum of money she now gets them back. When all is said and done, that judge should leave the bench, frankly, if a judge were to come to that conclusion.
ACKER: So at the end of the day we`re looking at what`s in the best interests of the kids and I`m not sure that it`s her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you to my fabulous panel.
We have been talking about the horrors of addiction for a while on this show. In my new book "I Want," I dive deep into my own personal battle with alcoholism and my journey to sobriety.
It`s a 12-step memoir due out this fall. You can preorder your copy right now. Just click on CNN.com/Jane and look for the preorder section. That is my story of recovery.
Up next on ISSUES, a frustrating update to the search for Lindsey Baum. Cops scaling back search efforts for this little child and her dad is set to deploy to Iraq next week.
Shocking reports come out on the Steve McNair murder-suicide. Were there warning signs that showed his girlfriend`s life was unraveling?
Give me a holler, 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297. Sound-off on this horrific case which cops are saying is murder-suicide.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did a life unraveling lead to the Steve McNair murder-suicide? We will analyze the warning signs.
But first, "Top of the Block" tonight: frustrating news in the frantic search for 11-year-old Lindsey Baum. The adorable girl has been missing almost two weeks after merely walking home from a friend`s house.
With virtually no leads Washington police have been forced to scale back their search. What started as a huge, massive search and rescue dragnet with hundreds of cops and volunteers is now reduced to merely a dozen officers. Investigators say they`re holding out hope that they will soon get that one tip that breaks this case wide open.
Meantime, in a cruel twist -- and I mean cruel -- Lindsey`s dad has been called up to fight in Iraq. He`s expected to be deployed next week. Let`s hope Uncle Sam gives him a break so he can stay in the United States and search for his precious, missing daughter.
That`s tonight`s "Top of the Block."
Now to truly disturbing developments in the Steve McNair murder- suicide: cops now believe they`re closing in on a motive as to why the former NFL star was killed in his sleep, allegedly by his 20-year-old mistress. The 36-year-old McNair was found shot dead Saturday. His mistress, Sahel Kazemi, was also shot dead.
A frantic 911 call follows.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
OPERATOR: Tell me what`s going on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody`s been shot. And I haven`t checked the vitals, but he`s...
OPERATOR: Is it male or female?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two, there`s two people.
OPERATOR: Two people?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
OPERATOR: And they both appear to be deceased?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think so, sir.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Like a scene ripped from a horror movie, cops now confirm what many had suspected, that this was a murder-suicide.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF RONAL SERPAS, NASHVILLE POLICE DEPARTMENT: We believe that Kazemi shot him in the right temple, then shot him twice in the chest, then shot him a final time in the left temple.
Kazemi then positioned herself next to McNair on the sofa and shot herself once in the right temple and expired.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now very disturbing details emerging about the girlfriend`s downward spiral, including her DUI just two days before the massacre. Cops saying there was evidence Kazemi felt her life was spinning out of control and she suspected McNair was seeing yet another woman, not his wife; a suspicion cops cannot confirm.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SERPAS: Over the last five to seven days of Kazemi`s life our investigation is learning she had become very distraught. On two occasions told friends and associates her life was all messed up and she was going to end it all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: While Steve McNair`s family and friends say good-bye in a memorial tonight, many are asking, could this massacre have been avoided? His friends and family miss the warning signs? I want you to weigh in on all of this.
But first straight out to my fantastic expert panel: still with me, Dr. Dale Archer, clinical psychiatrist; Stacy Honowitz, a Florida prosecutor; and joining us Carlos Diaz, correspondent with "Extra."
Carlos, the cops now moving to close -- they`re really getting a motive, they say. What do you know about this 20-year-old girlfriend`s state of mind at the time of this tragedy?
CARLOS DIAZ, CORRESPONDENT, "EXTRA": Well, what we know is what the cops told us in that press conference that this girl basically half the age of Steve McNair, was having a very, very bad few months and talking to her friends about ending it all. After that DUI that you just saw, she went and purchased a gun for $100 and that was the murder weapon.
You know, what they`re saying is that she killed Steve McNair in his sleep. This is really a wake-up call for all professional athletes, that, you know, they`re used to that lifestyle. You know, the extravagance, the richness and the fame and the whole thing.
But when you bring someone into that lifestyle and they experience it and then they feel that they`re being pushed away, you could have a situation just like this.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, that`s an excellent point, Carlos. Follow-up question: was his wife -- McNair was married, had four kids -- was his wife aware of any of this?
DIAZ: Well, that`s the big question. I mean, listen. I`ve been around sports all my life. My father was a sports agent. And I`m not exaggerating when I say this. I would say -- and this is a tough number to throw out -- I would say that at least 90 percent of professional athletes who are married cheat on their wives.
DIAZ: And that is -- I am not kidding you when I say that. When I was growing up, I was around it all the time. I`ve worked in sports, you know, as a sports reporter. I`ve seen it.
And it`s -- listen, I know NBA basketball players who wore their wedding ring in their shoe laces because women would hit on them during the game. And these guys wanted to let women know they were unavailable.
So it`s the classic -- I mean, they`re the gladiators of our time where women want to be with them. And it`s very tough. How could a guy be taught to be competitive his entire life and then turn that competitive nature off when he goes to the club after the game?
It`s just really -- it`s a wake-up call for all athletes that that kind of behavior has dire consequences.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, absolutely. Police say Kazemi told a friend her life was a total mess and she wanted to end it. They also said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SERPAS: We also have reason to believe that Kazemi recently learned before this day that she believed McNair was involved with another woman. And that too precipitated in her state of mind, we think.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Dr. Dale Archer, cops can`t confirm that so we don`t know if this is paranoia on the now deceased girlfriend`s part or maybe the relationship was fizzling and he was straying again.
What do you make of all of this, especially in light what was Carlos had said, about this is being rampant in the NFL and other professional sports?
ARCHER: Well, the stats that I`ve seen have said 80 percent.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, whatever -- 80, 90.
ARCHER: So still, it`s huge. I think the problem here is that there were two lives that were in turmoil.
First of all, Steve McNair, you go from being a kid, you`re a superstar athlete. Most professional athlete`s careers end in five years or less.
So right at the time you`re at the prime of your life, your professional career comes to an end and you have to find other ways to validate your greatness. And often for men, that means going with younger women.
In her case, it was very, very sad. And the take home message is very clear. When you talk about ending it all, you are at extreme risk for doing it. And everyone in America needs to know, if your friend or family member tells you, "I`m thinking about ending it," that means they are at super high risk for suicide. You have to take action.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And there`s another element here, a DUI that occurred a couple of days before this tragedy.
It`s fascinating because it could relate to everything. It could be the inciting incident.
ARCHER: Very sad.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Expert panel, don`t go anywhere; more on the McNair suicide and the girlfriend`s downward spiral that may have led to this horrific crime.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SERPAS: Over the last five to seven days of Kazemi`s life, our investigation is learning that she has become very distraught and on two occasions told friends and associates that her life was all messed up and that she was going to end it all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: McNair`s mistress who was a waitress also opened up to a female acquaintance; told her about her problem with McNair, just about nine days before the murder-suicide.
Listen to what that woman told a CNN affiliate. This is fascinating.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then she asked me, have you ever been in love? That`s exactly what she asked me.
She said we have been in all kinds of vacations. She said, "but lately he acts like he doesn`t want to spend time with me," and she said, "it`s killing me and I don`t know what to do." She knew that their relationship was ending. She was a beautiful girl on the outside but she was just dead on the inside.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It appears she felt she was losing McNair and it ended, according to authorities, in a murder-suicide.
Phone lines lighting up. Alicia, Florida, your question or thought, ma`am?
ALICIA, FLORIDA (via telephone): Hi. Thank you for having me. I watch your show every day. I think you`re great.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you. Thanks for calling.
ALICIA: My question is the firearm guy mentioned that she purchased with $400 a week ago. With that information, how was she and from where was she able to obtain a firearm? Because it was my understanding that you have be 21 and there was a three-day waiting period for the gun.
And for everyone listening, I`d just like to say, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, I love that saying.
Stacy Honowitz, want to take the gun issue?
HONOWITZ: Well, we don`t know if she showed a fake ID because I don`t know what it had to be in order for her to buy a gun. But there`s a three- day cooling off period.
But as we know, it`s not often followed and it results in things that we see right now -- shootings, unnecessary shootings. You know, in order for her to purchase or to get that firearm, somebody could have gotten it for her or she could have shown a fake ID.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Carlos, while I ask you this question, I want to show a little bit of the video of the DUI. She was pulled over for the DUI and according to the published reports McNair actually basically high-tailed it out of there even though he later came back and bailed her out.
Could she have felt abandoned by the fact that he took a taxi reportedly away from the scene?
DIAZ: Well, completely. But I mean, you have really no choice. If you`re in the passenger seat, from what I understand from talking to different people, you don`t go to jail with that person. You leave the scene. You get a cab and you go away.
But the bottom line is, it`s getting that taste of that opulent lifestyle that athletes have and then having it taken away that makes people want to do things like that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I hear you.
Thank you fabulous panel; got to leave it there.
Remember click on cnn.com/jane.