Return to Transcripts main page


Jackson Custody: Deal or No Deal?; Activists Fight Monkey Breeding Facility

Aired July 14, 2009 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, mind-boggling news in the ferocious Jackson custody clash. Is Debbie Rowe`s bitter battle for the kids over? Reports say Rowe sealed a deal with the Jacksons, getting 4 million bucks to give up her parental rights, but her lawyer says that`s completely false. So deal or no deal? It wouldn`t be the first time the mother of Jackson`s two oldest children has cashed in on it. And where do these reports leave lightning rod grandpa Joe Jackson?

Plus, fast-breaking developments. A slew in the arrests in the horrific double murder of a beloved Florida couple dedicated to helping special-needs children. A squad of criminals in ninja garb gunned down the couple in their own home.

DAVID MORGAN, ESCAMBIA COUNTY SHERIFF: We have found them and they are in custody.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And what was the motive for this monstrosity? Getting a safe.

Then another episode of Jon and Kate drama. Is Jon shaping himself up to be the villain in this soap opera? The new bachelor seen gallivanting across the globe with his 22-year-old gal pal, while Kate stays home with the kids. How will this affect the divorce proceedings?

Plus, plans to breed thousands of monkeys for lab testing in Puerto Rico sparking global outrage. It`s the story you won`t get anywhere else.

ISSUES starts now.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight a firestorm of controversy and conflicting reports, all about the custody of Michael Jackson`s three children. Is there a back-room deal? Are millions of dollars about to change hands?

The cover of today`s "New York Post" screams "Cash Cow!" A family source telling "The Post" that Debbie Rowe has, quote, "squeezed" four million bucks out of Michael`s mom, Katherine Jackson, this in exchange for giving up her parental rights. But Debbie Rowe`s lawyer objects. Objection! He wants a retraction. Attorney Eric George says to reporters, quote, "unequivocally false. There has been no agreement reached between Ms. Rowe and the Jacksons. Ms. Rowe has and will not `give up her parental rights`."

And "The New York Post" responds that it is standing by its story. Not a total surprise, given this isn`t the only report of a possibly custody deal. And if there`s truth to the speculation, it wouldn`t be the first of its kind, either.

According to published reports, Rowe`s reportedly got payout packages worth many millions in the past. Just today the TV show "Extra" released a new interview with Rowe`s friend who says another deal is in the works. So what is that deal? That same friend telling "Extra" that Debbie doesn`t want the kids.

Meantime, just hours ago the L.A. coroner`s chief investigator showed up at the office of Debbie Rowe`s former boss. We`re talking about Michael Jackson`s friend and his slash doctor, Arnie Klein. Investigators want to, quote, "look at the documentation he agreed to provide."

TMZ is reporting they were looking for more Jackson medical records, claiming Dr. Klein had not cooperating with the investigation, while the coroner today, well, he said he had been cooperating, but TMZ has a new report saying no, no, no. We`re going to get to it.

So much to talk about. And I want to know what you think about all of this. But first straight out to my fantastic expert panel: Michael Cardoza, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor. He attended the Michael Jackson criminal trial. Firpo Carr, Jackson family friend and former Jackson spokesperson; Jim Moret, chief correspondent for "Inside Edition"; and attorney Dr. Reef Karim, psychiatrist and addiction specialist. Boy, we need you tonight, Dr. Reef. And joining me by phone, Stacey Brown, co-author, "Michael Jackson: The Man Behind the Mask."

Stacey, I want to start with you. You told us last night right here on ISSUES that a deal was in the works and even went into detail about there being no ban on Joe Jackson being around the kids.

So what do you make of this very, very clear letter from Debbie Rowe`s attorney with a vehement denial of a deal, essentially telling "The New York Post," "You`ve got to issue a retraction." "The New York Post" saying, "We`re sticking by the story."

STACEY BROWN, CO-AUTHOR, "MICHAEL JACKSON: THE MAN BEHIND THE MASK" (via phone): Jane, "The New York Post" should stick with their story. The only issue I have with "The New York Post" story is that they reported that Joe was not going to be allowed to be around the kids and my sources, and I tell you, Jane, they are impeccable sources, there`s no language in this agreement that prevents Joe from being around the children.

I also stand by my sources and, you know, I`m not a Jackson family source, but I have some great sources on this story, and they are impeccable. This deal is -- has been agreed to. It was agreed to over the weekend, verbally. And the only thing that is left, Jane, is for it to be signed.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How much money are we talking about, in your opinion?

BROWN: From what I`ve heard from two different people, it`s anywhere from $3 to $5 million. And my guess is that it`s somewhere in between.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Listen, I`ve got to say, we see that the attorney for Debbie Rowe has sent a letter saying this ain`t true. I want to read details of it. So I have no idea what the truth is. We`re just reporting both sides. We have an open invitation to Debbie Rowe. You come on and tell your story, girl. If you think we`re not telling the truth, we want to hear from you or your attorney. Anybody can come on. And we`re going to talk about this letter in a second.

I want to play a clip from CNN correspondent Randi Kaye, appearing on "LARRY KING LIVE" last night, talking about what her sources said about a potential custody deal.


RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We are told the family certainly wants her to give up any notion of custody and any visitation rights, but apparently the family is also trying to work out some nondisclosure agreement. Our source says the family may even force Rowe to agree not to give any more media interviews.

As far as money, absolutely part of the deal. Seems like there is quite a large payoff, actually, in the works. Our source told us that Rowe stands to be paid, quote, "many millions" if she agrees to give up any contact and any custody with her two children so the singer`s mother, Katherine, can actually raise them.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. So Jim Moret, we`re talking "deal or no deal." Reading this letter, I want your analysis. This is the letter from Debbie Rowe`s lawyer, saying Ms. Rowe has not accepted and will not accept any additional financial consideration beyond the spousal support she and Michael Jackson personally agreed to several years ago.

First of all, they were divorced ten years ago. Why are they agreeing to spousal support several years ago? And do you think spousal support could be the euphemism that they use to refer to money continuing to change hands?

JIM MORET, CORRESPONDENT, "INSIDE EDITION": Well, look, I`m reading the letter along with you.

It`s been reported, CNN has reported that Debbie Rowe agreed to around $8 million some years ago, but claims that she hadn`t received all of that money yet.

But this letter makes it very clear that she`s not seeking any -- look, it seems very specific. I don`t think spousal support is a euphemism. I mean, you`re right, the divorce was finished long ago, and as far as we know, there was no spousal support in that divorce document. So I think he`s backed himself into a box here with this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me ask you this, Michael Cardoza. When she says she doesn`t want anything except the spousal support they agreed to, does spousal support continue beyond Michael Jackson`s death? Does that normally happen? And is it possible that she`s saying, "I`m not making a deal to walk away. No, I`m just making a deal to continue the spousal support"?

MICHAEL CARDOZA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Keep in mind, I`m not a family law attorney, but you can agree to anything. If that`s the agreement that Michael Jackson and Debbie entered a while back, of course you can have spousal support continue after death.

But this thing -- on a level, I mean, I mumble because this is a mother that sold her children. And I know we talked about it earlier, but when these kids grow up, they are going to find out about this. Can you imagine the mental health bills that will be -- and the mental health issues that will come up, and the mental health that they will need, the type of help? This is just -- a mother selling her children really is beyond the pale to me.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Dr. Reef Karim, these children seem very strong. They`ve seen a lot of bizarre things. They`ve had a very, very unusual dad, and sometimes what doesn`t kill you makes you stronger.

DR. REEF KARIM, PSYCHIATRIST AND ADDICTION SPECIALIST: Yes, I knew you were coming to me next. It -- yes, it comes down to this. In childhood development, any research done on developmental psychology always says the same thing: a secure attachment is what you need. The best interests of the children is what you need.

So if there already is a primary care giver, be it -- be it the grandma, be it the nanny, be it other people that are involved in their life, and if they don`t even call her "Mom," which is what it`s reported, then she`s not going to have as pronounced an effect. There still will be an effect, because she`s the biological mom. But it won`t be as severe as you think. If there are other primary caregivers giving them a stable attachment.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, well, supposedly they call her Miss Debbie, Firpo Carr, but as I said yesterday, I`m sure that one Google search engine check will show these youngsters, who obviously have Internet access, what the real story is.

And that`s -- that`s where I think the real damage will come. When there`s a disconnect between what they`re being told by their caregivers and what the real world says out there.

Firpo, what is your take on this whole custody deal or no deal?

FIRPO CARR, FORMER JACKSON FAMILY SPOKESPERSON: Well, there are three things you want to keep in mind, Jane, and that`s, one, Michael Jackson loved his mother, and he told me that personally and in private. And guess what? He parlays that love to the children. So now, and I`ve seen it with my own eyes, the children especially love his mother. So that`s...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m asking about a deal.

CARR: Oh, the deal. I`m getting to that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, get to it. We`re about to go to commercial.

CARR: OK. Here we go. The barn doors are open; the cows are out. Debbie Rowe has already proven what type of woman she is. She takes money on behalf of her children. It`s that simple.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Then why even make a deal? Why not go to court and say, "Hey, judge, this woman shouldn`t get custody of the kids because of her past behavior."

CARR: Because it`s too obvious. It`s like, "Wow, I don`t want to go down in history as Debbie Rowe, as the woman who sold her children. I don`t want that to be my legacy."

CARDOZA: She is going down that way anyway. I mean, she`s got that reputation now. Why not get more money? She is what she is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Hang on, gentlemen. More custody clash drama on the way. Deal or no deal? Do you think Debbie Rowe will fight for custody: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297. Let me know.

Then cops make seven -- count them, seven arrests in the brutal double murder of a Florida couple who adopted a dozen special-needs children. Now everybody wants to know why that beloved couple was targeted.

But first, Debbie Rowe reportedly fighting tooth and nail to get Joe Jackson out of the Jackson kids` lives. Michael Jackson`s friend and dermatologist told Larry King he, too, was worried about Joe`s influence.


ARNIE KLEIN, JACKSON`S DERMATOLOGIST: I worry about the Jackson family only because I worry slightly about the father.

LARRY KING, CNN ANCHOR: What about the father?

KLEIN: He was very difficult to deal with, with Michael. They announced his new record label at the memorial, as you remember, and they see him more interested in making money.




URI GELLER, FRIEND OF MICHAEL JACKSON: I screamed at him, and I used the words, "Michael, if you continue this, you will die."

CHERILYN LEE, NURSE WHO CLAIMS SHE TREATED JACKSON: He said, "Can you find me a doctor? I don`t care how much money they want. I don`t care what it is they want; I want this drug."

I said, "Michael, this is something serious. You don`t want to take this. You just don`t want to take this."

DEEPAK CHOPRA, FRIEND OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Yes, Michael Jackson was addicted. His addiction was darkened by and perpetuated by licensed M.D.s.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... investigator went to the office of Michael Jackson`s dermatologist, Dr. Arnie Klein, today. And we are getting word in from TMZ just now that Dr. Klein did not fully cooperate.

He -- Dr. Klein has said, "Yes, I fully cooperated, and I`m not even a focus of this investigation." But the assistant coroner who just went to Dr. Arnie Klein`s office telling TMZ, reportedly, that he went to the office because Dr. Klein was not cooperating fully, that they had asked him on July 2 for medical records, that he sent partial records, promised to send the rest later and never did.

And again, we`d love to get Dr. Klein`s side of the story here. He has said he`s cooperating and is not the focus of the investigation.

Jim Moret, what do you make of that TMZ report that the coroner went there to get records that they`d asked Dr. Klein to send over, and he didn`t?

MORET: Well, it`s clear that the coroner is interested in one thing: determining the cause of death. When they go to Dr. Klein`s office, they`re doing so because they want to look for additional records.

The assistant coroner came out, the deputy coroner, said that Dr. Klein has extensively cooperated. Those were his words. And I believe that while Dr. Klein wasn`t there, his lawyer was there. So this wasn`t a surprise visit.

But I also want to speak on behalf of Debbie Rowe, if I can, just for a sec.


MORET: Because you know, I don`t know her motivations, and I don`t claim to. But I will tell you that she is the biological mother, and under California law, she does have parental rights.

She may have felt Michael Jackson was the perfect father. The fact is, Michael Jackson is gone. Maybe she`s concerned because Joe Jackson has been making statements that troubled her over the past few days, like forming the Jackson 3 with Michael`s three children. Maybe she`s concerned.

CARR: He`s always reckless with his speaking, though. That doesn`t mean -- I doubt that you`ll ever see a Jackson 3, Jim.

MORET: And I`m just -- I`m just throwing out there the possibility that maybe she is concerned about those kids and maybe -- maybe -- she wants to have some part in their lives.

CARR: That may be true.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the shrinks say it`s multi-determined. You know, it`s a little, I want this, but a little bit that I could also do that, and I could also accomplish that.

CARR: Well, knowing the family as I do, I can guarantee you Katherine Jackson will not sign anything that keeps Joe Jackson out of the mix.

CARDOZA: Look at her Blanket`s mother. She`s completely out of the picture. Isn`t that a better situation for the children, instead of having Debbie Rowe come in and out of their lives, as the doctor talked about? As long as they have a parental figure to attach to, aren`t they better off in not being confused with the mother coming in and coming out?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Michael, you`re assuming that that mom will never come out. And I think that there`s fear in the Jackson camp, Stacey Brown, that that mom of Blanket, who we don`t have any idea who she is, will somehow emerge one day and say, "Look at me. I`m here."

BROWN: Yea, Jane, I`m surprised that we haven`t seen that yet. You know that there are bombshells after bombshells when you`re talking about Michael Jackson, and this is the one that I`m sure everyone is bracing for. This is the major earthquake that everyone is bracing -- bracing for.

And just to touch a little bit on what Michael Cardoza was saying, you know, Katherine has -- she`s also has raised other grandchildren, as we speak, so this is not anything that`s too much of a burden for her, just to set, you know, that record straight, if I could.


BROWN: I`m not in contact with Katherine, but I do know that she is raising other grandchildren.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s get to the other phone lines. They`ve been waiting patiently. Debbie, Michigan, your question or thought, ma`am.

CALLER: Yes. Jane, I love watching your program.


CALLER: I would like to have someone explain to me what is the purpose of making a legal binding will with specific instructions and issues and yet not be honored?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow, that`s a great question. Jim Moret, Michael Jackson specifically omitted Debbie Rowe from the will, specifically.

MORET: But Michael Jackson cannot take away Debbie Rowe`s parental interests in two of those children, because they`re biologically hers. So regardless of what it says -- and all it says in the will is she gets nothing, Debbie Rowe. And he wants his mother to be the guardian. However, Debbie Rowe still have a right to go to court and say, "Wait a minute. I`m the biological mom."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tica, North Carolina, your question or thought. Tica.

CALLER: Yes. My question is -- hi, Jane.


CALLER: I would like to know, does anyone know if Joe Jackson is suffering from a form of dementia.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hey -- well, oh boy, Firpo. Firpo, you...

CARR: Joe Jackson -- Joe Jackson, that poor guy. And he`s a harmless guy. Yes, he doesn`t have the best judgment when it comes to saying certain things. But I`m telling you, I`ve got -- I`ve got to know Joe very, very well. And he is a good guy. Underneath all of the crass talking, and underneath all of that showboating, he`s a nice guy. And I can tell you, around his grandchildren, which

I`ve seen him a million times, he is a big teddy bear.

CARDOZA: I`ve got to tell you, I have defended a lot of people, and I`ve talked to serial killers.

CARR: Come on.

CARDOZA: And 99 percent of them are nice people, but it`s that 1 percent that you`ve got to be awfully afraid of.

CARR: Can I just say...


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Fabulous panel, stay right there. We`ve been talking about the nightmare of addiction for a while on the show. In my new book "I Want," I dive deep into my own personal battle with alcoholism and my journey to sobriety. It`s a recovering memoir due out this fall. But you can preorder your copy right now. Just click onto and look for the preorder section. It`s my personal story. And I`ll tell you right now, it`s got some real shockers.

Up next on ISSUES, a reality show about following the Jackson brothers finished shooting before the King of Pop died. Will the world ever see it?

And plans to build a monkey breeding facility in Puerto Rico sparking global outrage. I`ll have it next.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: In the spotlight tonight, global outrage grows louder over a plan to build a lab monkey breeding facility in Puerto Rico. Hot on the heels of recent undercover footage showing what appears to be abusive treatment of primates at a research facility in Louisiana comes a call for action to stop a new facility planned to breed monkeys for laboratory testing in Puerto Rico, of all places.

Furious locals have joined an international coalition of animal protection groups. They are calling on Puerto Rico`s governor to halt the construction of this monkey-breeding farm.

ISSUES broke the story nationally, inspiring some officials in Puerto Rico to take action.


CINDY BADANO, PUERTO RICO BAR ASSOCIATION: Many on the island including ourselves found out about this in the southern part of the area, because we saw it on your show. We live here, and we didn`t even know this was going on. We already started our investigation, and we are just appalled at what we have found.

EDER E. ORTIZ, PUERTO RICO SENATE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in the area. We are conducting our investigation with the permits.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: With an investigation now in motion, many are asking why so many in the community were kept in the dark.

Joining me is Wayne Pacelle, president and CEO of the Humane Society of the United States.

Wayne, why is it that that humane organizations around the world are uniting to stop this facility from going up?

WAYNE PACELLE, PRESIDENT/CEO, HUMANE SOCIETY OF THE U.S.: Well, Jane, you know, we`re going the wrong direction here. We should be deconstructing these breeding facilities for primates. As we learn more about them, we learn how intelligent they are. You know, there was just a picture on the front page of "The New York Times" this week, two rhesus monkeys, in this cases, in a laboratory for 20 years in a small enclosure. We shouldn`t be subjecting these highly-intelligent primates to this sort of treatment that they`re going to endure.

We at HSU just did one of the biggest undercover investigations at a primate research facility in Louisiana and found some really terrible stuff. We should really be thinking about alternatives and moving away from the use of primates and using more innovative technologies.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you`re right. We`re living in a high-tech world with molecular and even sub-molecular research. We don`t take boats to get to Europe any more. We don`t need to torture these animals to get information that we need.

A survey shows there is massive opposition to the construction of the monkey breeding facility among Puerto Rican citizens. Listen to what some Puerto Ricans said at a news conference denouncing this project.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It should be painfully obvious by now that this project is (SPEAKING SPANISH) for Puerto Rico.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am outraged. I am opposed. I don`t want it to happen. This is unspeakable.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wayne, this proposed facility will reportedly hold at least 3,000 macaw monkeys. I`ve heard claims it could hold thousands more. Reports are these monkeys will be sold for $3,000, approximately, to pharmaceutical companies for research. You know, what do you say to officials who justify with one word: science?

PACELLE: Yes. Well, Jane, you know, our investigation in Louisiana recently found that there`s a provision, federal law. It was adopted 24 years ago. So U.S. laboratories are supposed to account for the psychological well being of primates. Congress specifically said these animals are different. They`re so intelligent we found no evidence of any attentiveness to the psychological well being of the animals. They`re warehoused for years and years.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we have to leave it right there, Wayne. Always great to see you.

By the way, a protest is planned for this coming Friday morning, July 17, in Guayama, Puerto Rico, the site of this proposed monkey facility. We will stay on top of this story.

Cops make quick work to find justice for the Florida couple gunned down in their own home. Seven men arrested. But the question still remains, why? Why would they do this?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Fast breaking developments and more arrests in the horrific double murder of a Florida couple dedicated to helping special needs children. A squad of criminals in ninja garb gunned down the couple in their own home. What was the motive for this monstrosity?

Then another episode of Jon and Kate drama, Jon was seen gallivanting across the globe with his 22-year-old gal pal while Kate stays home with the kids. Is the new bachelor the villain in this soap opera?

More Jackson news in just moments, but first, unbelievable new developments in the gruesome double murder of a Florida couple known for adopting children with special needs. The local sheriff makes a stunning announcement today. A mind-boggling seven people are in custody in connection with the shooting deaths of Melanie and Byrd Billings, including a 16-year-old; cops say they are looking for one more person.

The sheriff announced the breakthrough while an adult daughter of this wonderful couple, Ashley Markham, stood by.


SHERIFF DAVID MORGAN, ESCAMBIA COUNTY, FLORIDA: I asked you if there was anything that I could do for you and your response back to me was, "Sheriff, find the people who did this." It is my honor today to tell you, Ashley and your family, we have found them and they are in custody.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: But the big question remains, why? Why would so many people allegedly put on black ninja outfits and masks and storm into this wonderful family`s home, execute them and leave within about four minutes?

Murder suspect David (sic) Patrick Gonzalez Jr. appeared in court today via video link and told the judge it wasn`t him.


LEONARD P. GONZALEZ JR., CHARGED WITH MURDER: I think the entire case is based on hearsay and circumstantial evidence and the confession of a mentally-challenged person with a long history of making false statements. In those confessions, I am not guilty of the crimes for which I`m being charged.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The community still baffled about why the Billings, parents to 17 children -- 17 children -- were the target of this brutal double murder. Cops say the primary motive was robbery, but what about other motives? Prosecutors say we are going to have to wait for the case to go to court for the rest of the jaw-dropping details.

Straight out to my expert panel: Curtis Sliwa, founder of the "Guardian Angels;" and WABC Radio talk show host, David Schwartz, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor; Brenda Wade, psychologist; Rob Williams, anchor and morning host of News Radio 1620 AM in Pensacola, Florida.

But first, I am very honored to have with me tonight, Sheriff David Morgan. Sheriff, first of all, congratulations on a swift and fantastic job tracking down the monsters who allegedly did this.

How in God`s name did they commit double murder and find this safe in only about four minutes? There`s got to be something else at work, they had to know possibly where that safe was and where to find it, no?

MORGAN: Well, we found out today with the conclusion of this case, and again, I want to give all of the congratulations and the laudatory comments to my staff and to the investigative union of the Escambia County sheriff`s office, because within 96 hours, we have solved these two horrendous murders. But today at the conclusion of this case with some of the interviews that we finalized our case with today, we found out that these individuals had in fact trained together.

Some of them up to 30 days, they trained together for this operation. And so they knew what they were going for when they entered the compound. And as we`ve said all along, it was a well-executed, well-planned operation.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is that just a question of stupidity, sheriff? I mean monstrous stupidity that all these guys get together and allegedly train and hut, hut, hut. Some of them have military backgrounds and then they`ve put on these black outfits and masks and they storm into this house -- for what?

All seven of their lives are ruined, their families` lives are ruined and most importantly, they have ruined the lives of this incredible family that did such important work. And you have to say for what? For what did they think was going to be in that safe that was so important that all of them had to do this? It`s so excessive.

MORGAN: We have indications again, that it was about robbery; it was about cash, money, that`s what it was all about.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But you had said something about other motives. And I remember reading that one of these guys on a MySpace page made some kind of a reference to the fact that his daughter disappeared and he felt that she was taken under false pretenses.

Could there be anything there at work? Anything kind of a -- it feels too personal to be simply robbery. I had heard in your news conference you said at least one of them had visited there at one point and maybe doing some yard work or something very menial?

MORGAN: That is true. And again, as we want to restate, upon the direction and counsel of the state attorney`s office -- because now we`ve moved into the prosecutorial phase of this case, that we are stating that the A motive -- A motive was robbery, but, yes, there are other things I`m sure that will come to light and come into play as this case progresses.

But again, we`ve been asked by the state attorney Mr. Bill Eddins to tell the public that the primary focus and motive was robbery.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, sheriff, I just want to say, again, excellent job, great detective work.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: You moved fast and you really did an amazing -- we cover so many crimes, I haven`t seen this kind of fast work in a while -- so congratulations to your entire team.

MORGAN: Well, thank you, ma`am. And again, we want to thank the media for their assistance because you were critical and pivotal in the conclusion of the case. And we`ll be eternally grateful in Escambia County, Florida. Thank you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We try to work with the law enforcement agencies whenever we can to get those tips out there so that the law-abiding citizens can help out and find the monsters who pull these kind of crimes.

I mean, this one boggles my mind, Curtis Sliwa. It really boggles my mind.

Now, they were so careful about putting on their ninja outfits and hut, hut, hut marching around training for this, but they didn`t bother to check to see whether there were surveillance cameras, which apparently were all over the house because of the special needs kids, which is one of the reasons they were caught like that.

CURTIS SLIWA, GUARDIAN ANGELS: Well, no question. Probably amateur hour, they were watching some flick, they were imitating some Rambo-esque invade this home, invade this.

But remember, 30 days training, premeditated robbery, premeditated murder -- minus the 16-year-old, throw him out -- but how about those other six guys? They are all adults. I say death penalty, start correctional facility, put the jutes (ph) in their caboose (ph) and you know Florida does use the death penalty.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, I have to ask Rob Williams, something doesn`t add up. You`re the reporter tracking this case. I wanted to be at that news conference to ask questions, but even when I was talking to the sheriff, we`re not getting the questions of the why.

It doesn`t make sense to me that these guys all went in there without knowing and managed to execute two people and take a safe within four minutes, approximately, unless there`s something else at work that they must have known that there was a safe there. What do you know?

ROB WILLIAMS, NEWS RADIO 1620 AM, PENSACOLA, FLORIDA: Well, what we know is that there`s been a very tight hold on the information we`re getting from the sheriff`s office and the state attorney`s office. It will all come out as these people are arraigned, as the case is being developed. They will drib and drab this info out.

We do know the sheriff was very specific, they took a medium-size to say, maybe they needed three or four guys to carry a medium-size safe out of the house. But what we don`t know what was in the safe, was it just cash, was it gold, jewelry, there`s just no way of telling right now.

Also, they`re not even talking about how many of the guns have been recovered if any of those have been recovered yet, Jane. So this case, while it may be over and it took only 103 hours from the time the shots were fired until the click of the last set of handcuffs -- 103 hours, that`s great police work -- but there is still a way to go in this case and certainly finding out more information.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And because there were surveillance cameras all over the place, I have to ask you a quick follow-up, where there cameras actually catching the execution of this man and woman?

WILLIAMS: I spoke with Sheriff Morgan the other day because Monday we had him on the radio at News Radio 1620 and he said, you have seen the video and it just shocks you the first time and every time you`ve seen the video since then.

Those video cameras and the recordings can trace those guys from the yard into the house down the hallway, into the various rooms they covered. That will be very damning evidence when they finally take that to court, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow, that is sickening.

David Schwartz, the attorney, I want you to react to this. Suspect David (sic) Patrick Gonzalez Jr. was adamant that he was not involved in the murder and asked the judge for a lower bond. Listen to him react.


GONZALEZ JR.: There is no hard evidence that links me to the scene of the crime that occurred July 9th. All I ask for is an opportunity to clear my name. I also am a father and husband, I have six children at home and a wife whose well-being my responsibility as a breadwinner.

I am also socially prominent with work I`ve down in Project Fight Back. I`ve trained over 20,000 local children in abduction awareness and kidnap prevention and just a few weeks ago won the Seville Sertoma Club`s Service to Mankind Award.



DAVID SCHWARTZ, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I think he needs to be presumed innocent, ok? He`s got to be presumed innocent. I think what he is saying is he wants his day in court and the state has to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt just like they have to prove every one of these defendants guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they go it on camera.

SCHWARTZ: Well, well -- we have to look at the degrees of culpability here. Who was the shooter, there`s a lot of questions still unanswered. Curtis mentioned the 16-year-old; I`m not so sure they`re going to let the 16-year-old off that easily...


SCHWARTZ: ...but we have to see what this culpability is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brenda Wade, I`ve got to ask you this question.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is this just sheer stupidity? It seems to me that this is a stupid factor gone tragic.

WADE: Jane, I don`t know if it`s stupidity or not. But what I do know is that we are seeing some very bizarre crimes linked to people being willing to do truly horrific things for money.

So I`m sitting here asking myself, how is it? Because looking at this psychologically, how is it that you would throw any kind of human compassion or integrity out the window for money? And the only conclusion I can reach is that we have a group of people here who are the outsiders outside society who probably grew-up in some way feeling outside, unloved, unwanted because their behavior is so terrifically anti-social behavior.

WILLIAMS: Money is the oldest motive around, Jane. It`s the oldest motive. They are out forever.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, you`re absolutely right. It makes me sick to my stomach. I`m just happy that the cops broke this case. Thank you everyone for the wonderful analysis.

The Jackson family reality show completed shooting before the "King of Pop" died. So what will happen to all the footage?

Jon Gosselin takes his new gal pal across the globe while Kate stays home with the eight kids. Is he the villain in this real life soap opera? 1-877-JVM-SAYS, call me. I want to hear what you have to say.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: More Jon and Kate drama. I will tell you where Jon was spotted with his 22-year-old gal pal. That`s right, 22 years old.

But first, "Top of the Block" tonight:

Reports emerging that Jackson family reality show finished shooting right before Michael Jackson died last month. The 1-hour A&E special entitled "The Jackson Family" -- good title -- followed Jackie, Tito, Jermaine, Marlon and Randy as they worked on a new album and reunion tour. No footage has been filmed since the "King of Pop" died and the Jackson sisters previously had no involvement with the show. What`s that about?

But all that could change since A&E hopes to spin off the special into a series. So could a revived version hit the waves in the future? No news of that yet but A&E reportedly hasn`t reached a decision on whether or not to air it, change it, scrap it -- who knows what`s going to happen. We`ll have to wait and see.

That`s tonight`s "Top of the Block."

In other reality news -- so to speak -- Jon Gosselin, the newly separated dad from "Jon & Kate plus 8" is out on the town with his new girlfriend just three weeks ago. Just three weeks ago the reality superstar announced a separation from his wife Kate Gosselin on their hit reality show.


JON GOSSELIN, "JON & KATE PLUS 8": I`m hurt by all of this, but I`m excited and hurt at the same time because I have a new chapter in my life. I`m only 32 years old. I really don`t know what`s going to happen.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: From the looks of things, Jon has already started that new chapter with a 22-year-old girlfriend, Hailey Glassman. Get this, she`s the daughter of Jon`s not yet ex-wife`s plastic surgeon -- lovely.

The two held hands, canoodled, sipped champagne and smoked cigarettes aboard a yacht owned by the designer behind the "Ed Harvey" label in the South of France. TMZ reporting Jon will soon be designing a fashion line for the very same label for kids. Well, hey, maybe his 22-year-old girlfriend can give him some insight into a kid`s life.

Meanwhile, where was estranged wife Kate during all of this? At home taking care of -- who else -- the eight children, remember them?

Jon has said time and time again he does everything with his kids in mind. But has he really thought about how dating somebody well before the divorce is final will affect these youngsters? Plus, what will Jon`s new girlfriend mean for the divorce settlement? Could he be giving up millions for his new love?

Straight out to my fantastic panel: Joanna Greenwald, criminal defense attorney; Brenda Wade, psychologist; and Ian Drew, senior editor, "US Weekly."

Ian, what is the very latest on Jon`s vacation with his gal pal?

IAN DREW, SENIOR EDITOR, "US WEEKLY": Well, it is just now coming out in the open now. And, of course, we have these photographs of them, but we have kind of known about this for a while. He was spending private, intimate weekends with her. They were going to local haunts around Nyack, New York where she is living with her parents.

She also has a wild child background. She has a mug shot that we discovered. She had a pot arrest. She had another arrest involving drinking. And friends close to her have all told us this week she is after fame. This is definitely someone who is on the ride of Jon Gosselin right now and riding it now as hard as she can.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, she is getting it. She is getting her 15 minutes right now.

DREW: Exactly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ll try to give you 15 minutes, honey.

DREW: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jon Gosselin just wrapped up a vacation as we`ve been talking about in the French Riviera with this new 22-year-old girlfriend, Hailey Glassman. Glassman is the daughter of Jon`s estranged wife, Kate`s plastic surgeon. He`s the one who did her tummy tuck. That`s kind of humiliating right there.

And according to RadarOnline, this young woman is a college dropout, nothing wrong with that. Hey, some of the most creative people and the most successful people never finished college. But Jon and Hailey were actually seen together before his break from Kate. Back then they said they were just friends.

RadarOnline now reporting Glassman, as we have just been mentioning, was arrested back in 2005. Is that the mug shot? That`s a pretty good mug shot.


DREW: Yes, that`s it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s a good one -- looking good there, girl. Ok.

And she was also charged with marijuana possession. You know, I don`t want to beat up on her. I think the point is that she is just 22 years old, Brenda Wade.

WADE: This is a classic, isn`t it?


WADE: The newly-divorced man going out with someone who is significantly younger than himself.

GREENWALD: He is not divorced yet.

WADE: And in this case -- that`s true, he is not divorced, but the thing I want to say is that when I look at Jon and Kate, I think, was it, again, money. Here`s a couple that got all confused about what was more important, love or money, their family, their children.

And once again, I want to come down with both feet, Jane, and remind people that money is never a substitute for love...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Right. I love it.

WADE: And the people who are going to pay the tab are going to be those children.

GREENWALD: What does that have to do right now with the picture of him with the girlfriend? What does that have to do with anything?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Joanna, let me...

GREENWALD: I just wanted to say that.

WADE: We have a rule when people split up; we usually say within the first year you try to stabilize things for the sake of the children.

GREENWALD: Well, you try to.

WADE: Having a new girlfriend isn`t stability.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Joanna, your turn.

GREENWALD: Ok. Well, the problem -- here`s where the problem is and where you do give weight as far as the girlfriend. What her age is and all those things, that might bother people, but where she see really does come in, where you will an effect on him dating her, is that it`s not the arrest, but if she actually pled guilty and has a criminal past, not arrest but actual guilt.

They do mental health evaluations of anybody who lives in a home where the parents are. So she is someone who is a negative impact potentially on these children and he is dating her. That`s where you will have problem with potential visitation and custody issues. That`s where you have a problem with her.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, what about it affecting the actual divorce? I mean is it "no fault" where they are? Which I think is Pennsylvania. Or what?

GREENWALD: I don`t know Pennsylvania as far as "no fault." If they had been in New York, he having an adulterous affair during the course of the marriage that is grounds for a divorce.

However once you file for divorce, is it bad taste? Yes. Does it potentially damage the children when they have their own mental health evaluation, would it be in good taste even if you had the power to tell them to stay away? Yes.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Sit tight. More Jon and Kate drama in just moments; we have more for you.



JODI KREIDER, KATE GOSSELIN`S SISTER-IN-LAW: We had hoped that if enough people become aware of this, that everyone will do their part and turn off the TV, turn the channel, do it.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That was Kate Gosselin`s sister-in-law, Jodi, telling RadarOnline people should start boycotting the show. Well, with electric- high ratings for the last episode in June that`s not likely to happen any time soon. In fact, ratings pretty darn good.

We`re taking your calls.

Haley, Georgia, your question or thought, ma`am.

HALEY, GEORGIA (via telephone): I`m wondering why it took people so long to even consider him a villain. Every time he`s alone with those kids one of them ends up in the ER. People complain of -- people complain about her being grouchy or mean to him.

If anybody had eight kids and they had to constantly be telling your spouse what to do and how to do it and please do it and please help me over and over and over again, anybody in their right mind would get tired of it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Haley, I think you make a very good point. Ian, you know, Kate`s taken a lot of hits but maybe Jon is due for some.

DREW: Well, one thing we can`t forget here is this is not the first time he`s even been with another woman. The thing that started this whole thing, the thing that ended up with them on magazine covers was when he had another affair with Deanna Hummel the school teacher that we actually broke on the cover of "US Weekly." And then that`s when the story totally exploded.

It`s been nonstop with him. He`s done nothing but acted up; done nothing but cause trouble. She`s not totally innocent on her side either, though. She has a pretty bad track record of being a diva, being intolerable, being mean to people.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, water does find its own level.

GREENWALD: She doesn`t have anything wrong with being a mother.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes she does. Who said that?

GREENWALD: I said it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Anybody who put -- anybody who puts their kids on a reality show like this I think it`s questionable judgment as a parent.

GREENWALD: I disagree with it.

DREW: We`ve had story week after week after week of her being a bad mother.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t want to character assassinate her at all. Probably doing the best she can.

Brenda Wade, there is something -- we do have to question the thought of putting cameras in front of these kids.

WADE: You know, Jane, we have to question it. But look, she`s not the only mom struggling. Jon and Kate aren`t the only couple where money has played a role in their lives falling apart whether it`s too much or too little in these economic times. I`m seeing a lot of people struggling.

Here is my free tip today. Ten things you can do to make love and money come together better in your life, free on my Web site.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Happiness is an inside job.

WADE: That`s right. Thank you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s not about money or being on TV. Thank you, fabulous panel. Click on and preorder your copy of my new book, "I Want."

You`re watching ISSUES on HLN.