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Jackson Coroner Report Finished; Health Care Debate Furor; Cartels Victimizing Would-Be Immigrants; New Information on Control of Michael Jackson's Estate

Aired August 10, 2009 - 22:00   ET


JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: And John Roberts in here, John Roberts here for Anderson Cooper tonight.

Tonight: President Obama gets ready to wade into the bitter town hall fight over health care reform, your money, your future, your life.

But, first, briefly, another late development. Authorities know how Michael Jackson died, but they are not saying -- not just yet anyways.

Ted Rowlands in Los Angeles working that story, and he joins us now.

Hey, Ted. What do we know?

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, after weeks, the L.A. County Coroner's office has finally come out and said they are completely, done with the death investigation into Michael Jackson. The toxicology is in. The cause of death is in.

Coming up later, we will tell you when we are going to find out the details of that report that everybody has been waiting to find out what it -- is in, the details of what killed Michael Jackson. We will have that a little bit later.

Also a little bit later, a busy day in court. The fight over the estate continues. Coming up, we will tell you why a judge today delayed the proceedings, saying the Jackson children need their own lawyer in court -- that coming up later.

ROBERTS: All right, we will see you then. Ted, thanks so much for that.

Now to health care reform -- the president taking questions on it today in Guadalajara, Mexico, where it was 72 degrees and mild. He will face more questions tomorrow in New Hampshire at a town hall meeting, the kind of where temps and tempers have hit the boiling point.

Today, North Arlington, New Jersey, just outside of New York, protesters laying into Democratic Congressman Steve Rothman.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Quite honestly, we don't trust the government anymore to live up to this.



ROBERTS: But, just outside Atlanta, Democrat David Scott firing back, saying protesters could have made an appointment, but chose an ambush instead.


REP. DAVID SCOTT (D), GEORGIA: You want a meeting with me on health care, I will give it to you.


ROBERTS: At an event outside of Detroit last week, Hitler Obama signs outside, inside, protesters shouting down Democrat John Dingell.

REP. JOHN DINGELL (D), MICHIGAN: And health care...


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about free speech?



ROBERTS: Well, there are exceptions to all of this.

An event today in rural Missouri went calmly. But we have seen a lot more heat than light, one reported death threat, a number of brawls, some of the anti-form sound and fury carefully orchestrated.

However, much of the fear and loathing seems real.

In just a moment, Gary Tuchman speaks with some of those New Jersey protesters.

First, though, Tom Foreman is just back from a town hall, and he joins us now live from Baltimore.

What did you see, Tom?

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is quite a night, John.

A lot of people showed up, easily over 500, maybe 600, or -- or more than that, I'm not sure, if you put all the people inside, and all the people outside who couldn't get in. They started showing up several hours ahead of time to meet with U.S. Senator Ben Cardin from here in Maryland.

Just outside Baltimore is here where they were gathering for this meeting at a local university. Clearly, clearly, clearly many, many, many of these people were there to oppose the plan. There were some supporters, certainly, but an awful lot of them were there and they were very vocal about why they were opposing this plan, many because they feel it is being rushed too much, many because they don't like the cost of it, and many for a lot of other details, even as some tried to defend it.

Take a listen to what was being said outside this hall at Towson University before it began.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is nobody that understands what it is. The congressmen haven't even read this bill. It is 1,000 pages plus. They don't even know what is in it themselves.

FOREMAN: So, you don't see any transparency in this?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm a union guy. I'm a big, strong supporter of my union, but I -- I don't think that we should be forced into an option that you may or may not want.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm just an average citizen who believes that the people have a right to speak.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you compare the United States to a lot of developed Western nations, there's a number of things when we're -- we're -- we are falling behind. We are falling behind in life expectancy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why does everybody else from the world come here for health care, then?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They come here because we have the good facilities. Now, what I would do, I would favor a system where it's kind of -- can you just let me speak, sir? Do you mind if I speak?


ROBERTS: A lot of passion there, Tom.

And -- and with what we have seen in other parts of the country, there must have been some concern that this meeting wouldn't even be possible, that there would just too much shouting, angry voices, that sort of thing. What about all that?

FOREMAN: Absolutely right, John.

They brought on extra security here. They tried to be very orderly and very clear with people about how many people would get inside. There are about 500 allowed inside, at least as many outside who were not able to get in. So, they tried to make that clear to people.

And, then, inside a lot of that bubbling of the pot continued. The senator stood up there and listened and gave as best -- as good as he could, while listening to the crowd there. By and large, they let him speak. Listen to what happened inside.


SEN. BENJAMIN CARDIN (D), MARYLAND: I only have -- I only have one more slide to go.


CARDIN: And I -- if I... look, some of -- all's, again, I ask is, if you give people a chance to have their questions heard and give a chance for a response, I think it might be a little bit easier.


CARDIN: Now...


ROBERTS: Tom, how did the senator take all of that?

FOREMAN: Well, you know, he rolled with it pretty well. And so did the crowd, I have to say.

People were very hot about this, very strong emotions, a lot of it one-sided, people who were against the plan. Nonetheless, by and large, despite a lot of jeering and booing and carrying on, he generally was able to answer the questions. They generally permitted that in the crowd.

And it did go the entire time to the appointed finish time, at which point the senator left. There were some heated words, some very heated passions. But they managed to get through it all, John.

So, afterward, I asked the senator how he felt about it. And he said, by and large, he supports the right of people to protest. By and large, he feels like this bill is still very much in flux. And there's going to be a lot more talking, both with the public and among lawmakers before this ever becomes law -- John.

ROBERTS: To say it is in flux is probably quite an understatement.


ROBERTS: Tom Foreman for us in Baltimore tonight -- Tom, thanks so much.

Again, President Obama holds a town hall meeting tomorrow afternoon in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. CNN, of course, will be there. So, he will meet with kind of mix of people that you saw with Tom in Towson and whom Gary Tuchman spoke with today in northern New Jersey.


GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A packed senior center on the hottest day of a summer with an air conditioner that wasn't up to the task. The mood at this health care town hall in North Arlington, New Jersey, even hotter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who doesn't want massive changes to the health care system?




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is your job to...


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... you what constituents.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, sir.

TUCHMAN: Democratic Congressman Steve Rothman says he has some qualms with the health care reform proposal, but he wants to see reform occur. However, the overwhelming majority here just want things left things alone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's my opinion that we have the best health care in the world. People from Canada and Europe come here for life-saving procedures. Where are we going to go if this health care gets passed? And you know this president only...


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the purposes of this health care reform, or health insurance reform, is to keep the insurance companies out of...





UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... keep government out...


TUCHMAN: There was also anger outside the building, because the town hall was so full, scores of folks were kept out. The numbers of people surprised even the mayor. PETER MASSA (D), MAYOR OF NORTH ARLINGTON, NEW JERSEY: We were not generally prepared for this type of turnout, in light of the fact that there is this hot-button issue.

TUCHMAN: The town hall went longer than its scheduled time of two hours. And things continued to heat up. When the congressman talked about his health care goals, he had a tough time convincing many in the crowd.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the health care bill passes, will elective abortion be paid for by the government? Answer: No.


TUCHMAN: They also doubted the congressman's numbers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Address in some way and another and improve the situation, where we now have 47 million uninsured.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does that include...


TUCHMAN: So, why all is the yelling and screaming necessary?

ANDREW DERENZY, SEASIDE HEIGHTS, NEW JERSEY: They are taking our money and giving it to other people, and we don't want to sit down and take it.


DOM LAROCCA, VALLEY STREAM, NEW YORK: If you were -- if you were about to be hit by a bus and you didn't see it coming, would you like me to -- to yell and get your attention?

TUCHMAN: I would definitely like you to yell.


LAROCCA: Well -- well -- well, this is a bus that's going to hit...


TUCHMAN: This is a little -- this is a little slower -- this is a little slower process than a bus, though.


LAROCCA: It absolutely is.


LAROCCA: But this is where it starts.

TUCHMAN: This town hall meeting is similar, in some ways, to a boxing match, where most of the audience throw figurative punches. The congressman defends himself, throws a few jabs of his own.

The room, like a boxing ring, get hotter and hotter. The people get tired and sweaty, but nobody wants to quit.

(voice-over): But, finally, after three-and-a-half-hours, 90 minutes longer than scheduled, it ended, with the congressman and most of his audience agreeing to disagree.

Gary Tuchman, CNN, North Arlington, New Jersey.


ROBERTS: Well, debate continues online at

And right here after the break, our guests, two radio talkers hearing from and speaking for an awful lot of people on both sides of the people, Ron Reagan and Dana Loesch coming up.

Also, new developments in the aftermath of that midair collision above New York's Hudson River. Our Erica Hill goes airborne to survey the risk, and we hear for the first time early word of that terrible moment.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An airplane just hit a helicopter. The helicopter went down into the water. The plane, I'm not sure what happened, where it is.



ROBERTS: Politics, they say, ain't beanbag. People play for keeps, health care politics especially.

There's so much at stake for so many involving such wealth and deeply vested interests that a calm public debate on the merits is almost unimaginable. Yet, today, President Obama called for just that. He is going to try it out tomorrow in New Hampshire.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... your taxes.




ROBERTS: He wants everyone to calm down just a little bit. But, as you have been seeing tonight and all last week, at the moment, it is a very potent mix out there.

Here to talk strategy from the left and the right, Ron Reagan of Air America and Dana -- Dana Loesch, also a radio show host, and affiliated with the Saint Louis Tea Party Coalition.

Dana, let's start with you.

Why so much anger, mistrust and misinformation out there? And we wonder, has this whole thing devolved to the point where it is not only unproductive, but, frankly, it could be potentially dangerous?

DANA LOESCH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I don't think it could be dangerous.

I think Congress is responsible for setting the tone. And what we have seen is that Congress hasn't really allowed for discourse of one of the most important pieces of legislation in American history. And I think that is what people are reacting to.

You know, they're -- they are tired of calling their legislator and leaving a message with an aide. They're tired of going to a Web site and filling out a form e-mail. So, we are seeing at these town halls are people who -- they are flocking there because they have their elected official's ear, and they want to express their concerns about the health care legislation.

ROBERTS: So -- so, Ron, what about this argument, then, that these -- these people, they're not organized, it's a grassroots movement, these are -- these are merely Americans who want to get involved in the process, and they're deeply concerned about health care because it affects each and every one of us so much?

RON REAGAN, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, it's fine to get involved, and -- and it is good to show up at a town hall meeting and -- and have a conversation. But you have to have the conversation and you have to have the discussion.

And many of these people -- not all, I'm sure, but many of these people are clearly showing up to shut the conversation down. And they are being inspired by -- by some members of Congress who are floating this rumor, as -- as certain talk show hosts do, that, you know, Obama is all -- is all about killing the elderly, and, you know, there are these death panels, as Sarah Palin put it on her Facebook page.


REAGAN: And I -- I don't know that it's going to get dangerous out there. I tend to think that a lot of these might calm down a little because they realize this is not good press for them.

LOESCH: Well, yes.

REAGAN: But let me just add that, in Arizona today, a gun dropped out of one of these people's pockets while they were hooting and hollering at one of these town hall meetings.

LOESCH: Maybe they had a concealed-carry license.



REAGAN: Well, maybe they did, but, you know, you have got to wonder whether you really need to be packing heat to go to a town hall meeting.

LOESCH: Well, you know what? I tell you here, at Russ Carnahan's town hall meeting, as a -- as a young woman looking back at a bunch of really big guys in SEIU shirts who were glaring at me, I was a little bit afraid, I have to tell you. And that's stuff that we're facing.

REAGAN: Really -- really thinking you were going to be coming to harm, Dana?

LOESCH: Well, I...


REAGAN: I don't think so.


LOESCH: ... was beaten down in the parking lot afterwards, so, you know?

REAGAN: Well, you know, it is only a matter of time before somebody pulls out a gun and does something with it.


ROBERTS: Well, I don't know.


LOESCH: Yes, but the...

ROBERTS: Yes, it could be that this person did have a concealed- carry license.


REAGAN: I'm not arguing with you that they didn't have the concealed-carry license.


LOESCH: You can't immediately assign a negative -- you can't immediately assign...


REAGAN: But that's not the point.


LOESCH: ... negative simply because they -- they may have had a concealed-carry license.

But you know what? It is interesting that the guy didn't pick up his gun and start shooting everybody with it.

REAGAN: Well, let's hope not.



REAGAN: When that becomes the good news story of the day, I think we're in trouble, Dana.

LOESCH: He was demonstrating responsible firearm ownership.


ROBERTS: I'm sure the gentleman just picked up the gun and put it right back in his pocket, where it was duly licensed to be.

REAGAN: Put it right back in...


LOESCH: But that's -- I mean, that's -- that's besides the point. I mean...


ROBERTS: Hey, let me -- let me just, Dana, ask you about a point here that Ron made just a second ago.


ROBERTS: President Obama did talk about this in Guadalajara, Mexico, today. And he seemed to suggest that, after the August recess, that things might calm down. Let's listen to what he said.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I suspect that, once we get into the fall, and people look at the actual legislation that's being proposed, that more sensible and -- and -- and reasoned arguments will emerge, and -- and we're going to get -- we're going to get this passed.


ROBERTS: Do you think that that will happen?

LOESCH: Well, I think people already know what is in the legislation. That is why they are going to these town hall meetings, because they don't like the canned responses that they're getting back from their elected officials.

I mean, these people who are going, they are well-versed in what is going on with this legislation. They know what is in there. They are asking questions and they're wanting answers. And that's -- they're not getting the answers. They're not getting answer, period.

I mean, at the Russ Carnahan town hall event, it was literally a PowerPoint presentation. And some of the slides had like honeybees on them and sunflowers. And one of them said, sunshine is a disinfectant.

I mean, it's kind of like talking a little bit below the audience.

ROBERTS: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

LOESCH: So, I mean, I can kind of understand their frustration. I mean, anybody in their right mind would be frustrated, you know?

ROBERTS: And this idea, too, of talking to the audience, and maybe talking down to the audience -- Steny Hoyer and Nancy Pelosi came out with that editorial in which they said it was un-American to -- to -- to come out with dissenting views.

LOESCH: Well, yes.

ROBERTS: And -- and -- and, you know, there are people who have distanced themselves from that, and they -- they are from the White House.

Ron, was that just a little over the top?

REAGAN: Well, if you are saying that it is un-American to have dissenting views, that is clearly over the top.

But it's -- but it is un-American, I think, to take a town hall format and try to shut it down. That's not about airing dissenting views.

LOESCH: Well, I don't think anyone was trying to shut it down.

REAGAN: That's about -- well, yes they are. Sure they are, Dana.

LOESCH: No. I mean, no -- I mean, no, because...


REAGAN: That's what going on. We have the marching orders for these people. And that's they're supposed to do.


LOESCH: You want to talk about marching orders, how about Kathleen Sebelius' -- her -- her conference call with SEIU? How about Organizing For America sending out e-mails, telling people, let's roll up our shirt sleeves, let's show up in force at these things.

REAGAN: Yes. Uh-huh. LOESCH: I have received many of these e-mails.

REAGAN: Isn't the other side doing the same thing, Dana?

LOESCH: No. We're -- all we're doing is saying...

REAGAN: Yes. Yes, they are.

LOESCH: ... look, this is the time and the location. We are not saying, as the president said during his campaign, let's get in people's faces.

REAGAN: FOX News: Here is all the Democratic town hall meetings. We would do the Republicans, but we just don't have it.

LOESCH: That's what he's already said. I mean, it's all over YouTube.

I mean, so, if you want to talk about who is getting marching orders, marching orders have clearly been laid out. In Saint Louis alone, there was an ad on craigs -- craigslist asking for paid progressive activists, $90 a day, to show up at these town hall forums. So...



REAGAN: Well, good. Maybe they will bring their guns, too.


ROBERTS: Sarah Palin, the former...

LOESCH: No. They -- they don't believe in guns, remember?

REAGAN: No, that's true. They're peaceful people. They're...

LOESCH: Right. Right.

ROBERTS: Sarah Palin, the former governor of Alaska, came out, calling for a civil...

LOESCH: That's why all their protests are the most violent.

ROBERTS: Dana, if I just could get in here for a second here...

LOESCH: Yes. I'm sorry. Go ahead, John.

ROBERTS: ... former Governor of Alaska Sarah Palin came out today calling for civil discourse on the health care proposal, just days after she characterized the plan as downright evil and suggested that there would be death panels who -- that would decide who gets health care and -- and who doesn't.

You know, Newt Gingrich, over the weekend, was talking about the slippery slope toward euthanasia.

You know, it's -- all of this, Dana, I mean, is -- is it just scaring people?

LOESCH: I don't think it is scaring people.

I think -- I mean, definitely, there is a concern about care -- health rationing. There's a concern about end of life.

ROBERTS: I mean, there is nothing in the bill -- there is nothing in any of the bills about death panels. There is nothing in any of the bills about euthanasia.

LOESCH: Well, it about -- all about perspective. I mean, it's all about perspective.

I mean, when you are talking about -- when you are talking about insuring 46 million, 47 million Americans with health care, and not raising the costs, where is the cost control coming from? And especially when you have Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, who is one of the advisers to the president, who has some, like, very questionable ethics with regards to health care, I mean, definitely, that is going to raise some red flags...


ROBERTS: Quick -- quick final word, Ron.

REAGAN: Well, something is going to be passed in the fall. We will see what it is. We are not going to get what we really need in this country, which is universal single-payer. We might, if we're very, very lucky, get a strong option that will compete with the private plans. And let's -- let's...


LOESCH: But not with the government owning the -- not with the government calling the shots. It's like owning a football ball and also owning the league.

ROBERTS: All right. Well, we will see where...

REAGAN: Like -- like they do with Medicare and the VA? Yes.


ROBERTS: We will see where all of this goes.

We have got to run, folks.

LOESCH: Thanks so much.

ROBERTS: Dana Loesch, Ronald Reagan, thanks for being with us tonight.

REAGAN: Thanks, Dana. Thank you. ROBERTS: Really appreciate it.

Ron, I know it's been an awfully long day for you.


ROBERTS: And, as always, there is a lot more online at

With all the shouting about not wanting this country to turn into France, Great Britain or, heaven forbid, Canada, you can log on and see how those other countries compare in terms of quality, coverage, and cost. It's a place for you to get an awful lot information.

Tomorrow night on 360, answering critics who say we should focus first on doing something about all the money we waste on health care before we start spending money to reform it. We're "Keeping Them Honest" on that.

And coming up tonight: Watch Secretary of State Hillary Clinton get a little undiplomatic when she thought she was asked about former President Clinton.

And what is holding up answers in the Michael Jackson case? We will check back in with our Ted Rowlands -- just ahead on 360.


ROBERTS: Coming up on 360: Mexico's drug cartels have found a new way to make billions of dollars smuggling people across the border, collecting ransoms for some, selling others who can't pay into slavery. Michael Ware investigates.

But, first, Erica Hill joins us now a 360 news and business bulletin.

Hi, Erica.

ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: John, good to see you.

Explosions across Iraq today, killing 50 people and wounding more than 200. Most of the victims were civilians in Shiite areas. And today's attacks follow a series of deadly bombings on Friday, which also mainly targeted Shia. An Iraqi official tells CNN al Qaeda in Iraq is behind the increasing violence, which is intended to stir up sectarian tensions.

In Congo for part of her Africa tour, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton uncharacteristically losing her diplomatic cool. It happened at a town hall meeting in Kinshasa. A male university student asked her what President Obama would think about Congo's financial dealings with China.

One program, though. The translator apparently made a mistake and instead relayed the question as asking, what does the secretary think Mr. Clinton would think. And here is how the secretary responded.


HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: You want me to tell you what my husband thinks? My husband is not the secretary of state. I am. So, you ask my opinion, I will tell you my opinion. I'm not going to be channeling my husband.


HILL: Starting tomorrow, more than 225 General Motors dealers in California are going to try a little something new, selling their vehicles through eBay. It's a four-week trial, which lets consumers bargain with dealers virtually using the online auction site.

Dramatic pictures from Taiwan, video cameras capturing the collapse of a hotel at one of southern Taiwan's oldest and most famous hot springs resorts. Floodwaters from a typhoon washed out the soil and the land under that building's foundation. Now, it is believed the hotel had been completely evacuated before the collapse.

You have to hope so.

ROBERTS: That's pretty dramatic video.

HILL: Very.

ROBERTS: And -- and the whole thing with the secretary of state, as I understand it, ended well.

HILL: Yes.

ROBERTS: The translator said: "Oops, I goofed. I'm sorry."


HILL: We got it -- we got it all fixed.



HILL: But -- but, clearly, she is not going to tell you what her husband thinks.

ROBERTS: Yes. I would say that that -- that is pretty clear.


ROBERTS: Erica, thanks so much. We will see you a little bit later on.

Next on 360: horror above the Hudson -- new details on that midair collision over the weekend. Did the crowded airspace contribute to the tragedy? Erica takes you up on a helicopter flight, "Keeping Them Honest."

And, later, dealing in drugs and lives -- Mexico's cartels are not just sending narcotics into America. Michael Ware reports on their human trafficking business -- when 360 continues.


ROBERTS: Divers return to the Hudson River tomorrow to search for the ninth victim of Saturday's midair collision between a plane and a helicopter. They found an eighth body today. It was in the submerged plane.

Tonight, investigators are looking for clues as to what caused the accident. They're studying the wreckage. They're also talking with witnesses.

Here is one 911 call moments after the impact.


911 EMERGENCY OPERATOR: Nine-one-one operator 132. What is your emergency?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just saw a -- an airplane hit a helicopter in the Hudson River here. I'm -- the location is River Road and Fourth, approximately.

911 EMERGENCY OPERATOR: River Road and Fourth Street?


911 EMERGENCY OPERATOR: And you said...


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An airplane just hit a helicopter. The helicopter went down into the water. The plane, I'm not sure what happened with it. It -- I can't see it from my window.


ROBERTS: Now, the airspace above the Hudson may have played a factor. It is a very busy corridor. One pilot has a name for it. The Wild West, he calls it. But is it really?

"Keeping Them Honest" tonight, here is Erica Hill.


HILL: Every bit of New York is a tourist destination, including the skies. Sightseeing companies run helicopter tours up and down both sides of Manhattan. Mixing with private aircraft and business charters, it all adds up to some very crowded airspace.

Pete Zanlunghi has been a helicopter pilot for 26 years. He says the only problems above the Hudson are pilots who aren't paying attention.

PETE ZANLUNGHI, HELICOPTER PILOT: What you have on the weekend is, you have people that are out sightseeing. They are not paying attention. And they are trying to explain to the other people in the airplane. So, they (INAUDIBLE) to people like us.

HILL: Moves that can happen so quickly, there isn't time to respond, which many speculate may have caused Saturday's deadly crash, when a small private plane and sightseeing helicopter simply didn't see one another, and collided.

(on camera): One of the main thing pilots rely on an airspace like this one up and down the Hudson is not necessarily a radio or an air traffic control tower, because of the altitude they're flying at. Instead, it's their own eyes, something you call the see-and-avoid tactic, basically looking out for everything around you.

ZANLUNGHI: See, like I just picked up the helicopter probably 500 feet above us. See, similar to being in a car, you're always looking around. If you're not looking around, you're going to get bumped by somebody.

HILL (voice-over): They're also a dedicated radio frequency for the airspace below 1,110 feet. Pilots register their location as they pass well-known landmarks.

ZANLUNGHI: That's the Statue of Liberty right off to our right. Three helicopters just left here. We were all in contact with each other, (INAUDIBLE) That is the way it supposed to be done on the river.

HILL: Supposed to be, but it isn't required.

And, while this pilot doesn't see the Hudson as an especially crowded area, after Saturday's midair collision, there are definitely more eyes on this airspace.

REP. JERROLD NADLER (D), NEW YORK: It is unconscionable that the Federal Aviation Administration, the FAA, permits unregulated flights in a crowded airspace in a major metropolitan area. The Hudson River flight corridor must not continue to be the Wild West.

HILL: But, to Pete Zanlunghi, it is not more any more wild than the roadways. Still, he would not mind a few changes.

ZANLUNGHI: Well, I would like to see airplanes (INAUDIBLE) of above 800 or 900 feet. That's where helicopters (INAUDIBLE) feet (INAUDIBLE) and all the helicopters, because we're landing on the rivers. These helicopters and heliports have operated for 50 years (INAUDIBLE)

HILL: And this pilot would like it to stay that way.


ROBERTS: Erica, you were telling me, that was your first time up in a helicopter.

HILL: It was, yes.

ROBERTS: A busy corridor to go up in a helicopter.

HILL: Yes. It was interesting today. I asked him what it's like on a normal day. Because today there was still that temporary flight restriction in place. And we also went up just before the Yankees game started. And interestingly enough, there are other flight restrictions an hour before and an hour after. It was a little quiet. On a normal day, he said probably 10 to 15 aircraft, which he doesn't consider to be very busy.

ROBERTS: Over the course of an entire day, only 10 to 15?

HILL: Well, when he's flying that particular -- keep in mind, you're not in that space for too long. He said that would be sort of an average day when he's going up and down that space.

ROBERTS: Right. So every time he's up, there's ten to 15 other aircraft.

HILL: Well, that's an average. We're just going to keep my -- today we saw maybe three or four other aircraft. It was also later in the day. It was probably around 6:30, 7 o'clock. So all these things come into play.

It is. But he does say the busiest days are absolutely weekends when you have not just official sightseeing tours but more people taking their private planes up doing unofficial sightseeing tours and family members.

ROBERTS: Great firsthand look for us. Erica, thanks so much.

HILL: Thanks.

ROBERTS: And let us know what you think. Join the live chat happening right now at

And coming up next, kidnapping on the border. Mexican drug cartels have a brutal new tactic: selling people for money.

Also, new developments in the Michael Jackson death investigation and the new battle lines in the fight over his estate, when 360 continues.


ROBERTS: President Obama wrapped up the North American leaders summit in Guadalajara, Mexico. At the meeting, he defended Mexican President Felipe Calderon's battle against the drug cartels. There have been accusations from some in Washington that Calderon's government is sacrificing human rights to win the war. Here is President Obama's response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I am confident that, as the national police are trained, as the coordination between the military and local officials is improved, there is going to be increased transparency and accountability and that human rights will be observed.

The biggest, by far, violators of human rights right now are the cartels themselves that are kidnapping people and extorting people and encouraging corruption in these regions. That's what needs to be stopped.


ROBERTS: The president also touched on immigration, calling it a broken system. For the cartels, however, illegal immigration is a booming industry and a bloody one, at that. They are not just smuggling narcotics across the border.

With tonight's "Crime & Punishment" report, here's CNN's Michael Ware.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (speaking foreign language)

GRAPHIC: Because they didn't let me free, they raped me.

MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): I cannot tell you her name, nor anyone else's in this story. Nor can I show you their faces or tell you where I met them. Because if I did, they say, they would almost certainly be killed.

That's because the violent drug cartels have a new and lucrative business. Think of it as a hostile takeover, the people smuggling business.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (speaking foreign language)

GRAPHIC: We were very scared because these men were very bad. They don't have a soul. They can just kill an immigrant without a thought because to them, we don't count for anything.

WARE: This woman fled the poverty of her hometown, the seventh of 12 children. As hundreds do every week in Central America, she headed north for Mexico, bound for the U.S., only to be seized by one of the most brutal cartels in the business, Los Zetas.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (speaking foreign language)

GRAPHIC: We boarded the train, when the train arrived to (UNINTELLIGIBLE), many vans drove by with members of Los Zetas. They kidnapped us and took us to a secret location.

WARE: The cartel ransom them off for whatever they can get, selling them back to families who barely could pay. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They control all the routes. They have the infrastructure. They have the money. They have the people. They have the guns. They have everything right now to control everything.

WARE: This man is one of few working with the cartel's victims. He tells us the cartel's new business, human trafficking is flourishing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. This is not only a drugs issue. It's getting money. Where come from the money, they don't care.

WARE: And some of the money is used for bribery. When the car carrying the young woman in our story arrived at an immigration police checkpoint, she hoped her ordeal with the cartel was over. She said the immigration officials were in on it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (speaking foreign language)

GRAPHIC: I was telling myself, thank God, something is going to happen the instant an immigration officer approaches. But the kidnapper in the car said he was a member of an organization without name, and made some hand signal, and the immigration officer said, "OK, go through."

WARE: This is another woman who was held by a cartel. Her family was unable to pay a ransom, so for four months she was forced to work, cooking for the other hostages and the cartel kidnappers themselves.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (speaking foreign language)

GRAPHIC: While I was kept in the safe house I found out a lot of things about the cartel, because being the cook, I had to serve them. I had to attend to them, bring them their beer and their food when they were in their meetings.

WARE: She says she was also ordered to take food to prisoners, shackled in makeshift torture chambers, and to wash the clothes of the cartel jailers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (speaking foreign language)

GRAPHIC: Because I washed their clothes, it was always bloody. I didn't realize why. But then I realized the people tied and cuffed, they chopped them into pieces, then burned so there was no evidence of that.

WARE: The men chopped into pieces, she says, were hostages who could not pay or more often, they were the men they called coyotes, the Mexicans who specialize in smuggling people across the U.S. border. The cartels literally butchering their competition.

And anything that makes cartels like Los Zetas stronger is a threat to America, particularly when them the means of importing more drugs. The Zetas are a prime example of an organization that has, from a traditional perspective, looked into other areas of making money, specifically with the human smuggling situation. It is a means of introducing drugs into the United States.

WARE: And that means only one thing: many more horror stories to come.


ROBERTS: Michael Ware joins us now from Guadalajara.

And Michael, the women in your piece, do we know what will happen next to them?

WARE: The short answer to that, John, is no. They don't know what will become of them. The people caring for them don't know what will become of them.

They're caught in a limbo, John. They can't move forward to the United States. They can't move backwards to their impoverished families. They are literally caught in the middle.

So we are going to have to monitor their fate and see what becomes of them, because they are very much a barometer of the human tragedy that is now about to unfold for those who are trying to get to the United States through Mexico -- John.

ROBERTS: And these cartels, Michael, first drug smuggling, now human trafficking. Is there any business they won't get into as long as there's money to be made?

WARE: Absolutely not. One would imagine, as the DEA tells us, that the cartels are under pressure from the Mexican government, military operations, from interdiction from U.S. forces at the border. So they're looking for other revenue streams.

However, other people will tell you that, in hard economic times, like any good company following any decent business model, the cartels are diversifying their business interests.

So from here on in, it's virtually fair game for any illicit and sometimes legal businesses that are operating in areas controlled by the cartels. Soon it will be the taxis, the hotels and goodness knows what next, John.

ROBERTS: Well, so far, though, not exactly a decent business model. Michael Ware for us in Guadalajara. Michael, thanks so much.

Mexico's drug cartels are now operating all across America. Go to to see a map of their expanding network.

And still to come tonight, Michael Jackson's autopsy is complete. But his estate is far from settled. We'll have the latest on that angle. And will there be a movie made from his final rehearsals? Some answers ahead. Also ahead, reality star mom Kate Gosselin breaks her silence and sheds some tears. What she revealed, tonight on 360.


ROBERTS: Tonight's 360 follow, the latest in the Michael Jackson investigation. As Ted Rowlands reported at the top of the hour, authorities now know how Jackson died. They confirmed today the coroner's report has been completed. And investigators are not making that report public, at least not just yet, and there are other new developments tonight to tell you about, as well.

Ted Rowlands joins us again from Los Angeles.

Hi, Ted.



You get the feeling that the coroner's office would love to share their findings after weeks of not only holding people off, saying, "We should be finished next week. Next week. Next week."

They really do in their press release say that they've done a thorough investigation, and they've come to a conclusion in terms of their death investigation. But they are not going to release any of this information to the public until the LAPD gives them the go ahead.

And the LAPD has asked the coroner's office for now to hold that information and keep it out of the public view until their criminal investigation or their death investigation, which could turn criminal, is complete.

So obviously, the LAPD has served search warrants in Houston, Las Vegas. I mean, there could be more warrants at Houston, Las Vegas. We understand there could be more warrants down the line. Until they're finished they're not allowing the coroner to release the information, therefore not allowing the public to find out exactly how Michael Jackson died and what was in Michael Jackson's system at the time of his death.

ROBERTS: There's also new information about control of Michael Jackson's estate. What are we finding out about that?

ROWLANDS: Another day in court on that front. Katherine Jackson and her lawyers there, along with the executors of this will and the estate. And what they're hammering out is basically what deals to take on to make some money for the estate.

And the judge today said, "You know what? I don't feel comfortable any more unless there's a lawyer here that represents the best interests for the children." He did OK Sony Pictures and Columbia Pictures to make a movie, a documentary, using the rehearsal footage that Michael Jackson compiled in the days leading up to his death. That's going to be released in October. That's a done deal. That Sony paid $60 million for it. They expect to get all of that back and more.

But what the judge said is there are some other things out there, a memorabilia tour of different cities, and some concerts next year in London that start in July. The judge said, "I'm not going to rule on this until we appoint another lawyer for the children's benefit." And if you think about it, a year from now, a memorabilia tour, does that really help the children? So they're going to appoint the lawyer, and they're going to tackle those things next week.

ROBERTS: All right. Ted Rowlands for us tonight from Las Angeles. Ted, thanks so much.

A lot of moving pieces to this story. Let's dig deeper on it now with our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.

Plenty of cases in the past, Jeff, where the cause of death has been released, toxicology reports, whatever, and the police investigation continues. So why in this particular case has the LAPD told the coroner, "Don't tell anybody how he died?"

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Because they are concerned that witnesses, presumably starting with Dr. Murray, the chief suspect in this case, will line up their stories with what they know the scientific evidence shows. They want the witnesses to tell the truth and then see if it really is the truth, because they have the scientific proof on the other side.

COOPER: So we're six weeks into this investigation. He died about six weeks ago. And the longer this goes on, what are the likelihood the charges might be filed against Dr. Conrad Murray? If you've got a pretty good case, don't you files charges close to, if not right away, you know, just a couple, three weeks out?

TOOBIN: It's certainly one of the truisms of criminal law that cases don't get better with time. You should -- you should file a case as soon as you have good evidence. But this is a complicated case. There's a lot of scientific evidence involved. The issue of cause of death. Michael Jackson's access to drugs is really a complicated one.

And Conrad Murray is not a fugitive. He's not going to go anywhere. So I do think it makes a lot of sense to make sure you have the best case you possibly can before you file any charges.

ROBERTS: Does it suggest uncertainty? And if there is uncertainty how much in Dr. Murray's favor might that play, should he be charged?

TOOBIN: Well, certainly, uncertainty will always play in a defendant's favor. I don't think six weeks is that long. And given the complexity of this investigation, I wouldn't draw any real conclusions, one way or the other, based on the fact that they haven't charged -- charged him yet.

ROBERTS: And so let me get back to what the judge today said. Michael Jackson's three children, I want you to have legal representation. Katherine Jackson is the guardian of these children. Would she not look after her best interest legally?

TOOBIN: Well, I think the judge is acting prudently. Because it's interesting what Katherine Jackson is doing here. She's not challenging the will. Because if she challenges the will, she loses all of the money. But she's sort of channeling the procedures in administering the will so far. She's raising a lot of questions. She's asking to see more documents. She's asking for more time.

At some point her interests may conflict with her children's. So the judge is doing what judges often do, which is let's make sure everybody has their own representatives, especially when you're dealing with kids who can't represent themselves.

ROBERTS: You've got Katherine Jackson who's looking after the kids, but now you have an attorney who's going to be looking after their kids' best interest. There are so many potential points of conflict are emerging now.

TOOBIN: That's just the reason. Because at some point, if Katherine Jackson becomes an obstruction that could -- that could challenge the children's interests. That could hurt the children's financial interests. So they want -- the judge wants a lawyer to say, "Hey, let's make sure that the kids get as much money as they can down the road."

ROBERTS: When we first started talked about this, you told me probably three -- two to three years to figure it all out? You want to revise that?

TOOBIN: Well, I think three is looking more like two. The lawyers will certainly do well.

ROBERTS: Jeff, it's always great to see you. Thanks for stopping by tonight. Appreciate it.

Still ahead on 360, one half of "Jon & Kate," minus the eight, speaking out about why she's still wearing her wedding ring. You know you've been wondering, even if you'd rather not admit it. Tonight we've got the answer for you.

Plus, they were presumably looking for a thrill, not sheer terror. Two dozen people trapped in a roller coaster 80 feet up. We'll show you the dramatic rescue pictures in just a moment.


ROBERTS: A lot happening tonight. Let's get the latest now on some of the other stories that we're following. Erica Hill joins us again with the "360 Bulletin."

Hi, Erica.

HILL: And John, a bit of a 360 follow to start for you. The U.S. government now convinced the top Taliban commander in Pakistan is, in fact, dead. Senior officials confirming Baittullah Mehsud was killed in a CIA missile strike last Wednesday. Clinton VID (ph), they say he was spotted just before that strike on the roof, getting treatment for his diabetic legs.

They were left hanging, some for nearly six hours. Two dozen people stuck on the Invertigo roller coaster at the Great American Theme Park just south of San Francisco. The ride stopped at the high point, which in 98-degree heat became a low point. Frankly, I rarely think the high point is every a high point. Luckily, no one was hurt.

Kate Gosselin is speaking out, explaining why the "Jon & Kate Plus Eight" co-star is still wearing her wedding ring, despite the announcement of a divorce.




GOSSELIN: I don't want to upset them. While I have been very real and as honest as I need to be, I don't want to shock them. I've walked slowly through this with them.


HILL: And they're obviously speaking about her eight children.

And your canine companion is smarter than you think. A study shows the average dog has the same I.Q. as a 2-year-old. In fact, it can count up to five and learn more than 165 words. The honor students among the breeds: border collies, poodles and German shepherds, in that order, John. The not so bright bulbs are apparently hounds and some beagles, which is bad news for my father. He's a big beagle lover.

ROBERTS: I know a few beagle owners myself. I had a golden -- I've had Golden Retrievers for much of my adult life.

HILL: And where do you believe they fall?

ROBERTS: I don't think they can count to five, and I've never heard any one of them ever speak a word. So they're not too good at the vocabulary.

HILL: Yes, the 165 words, I'm a little cautious.

ROBERTS: Yes. They mostly know food, food, food.

Thanks, Erica.

Still ahead, a new video from auto tune the news. Those are the folks who found the way to make the most boring C-SPAN speeches absolutely captivating, even dare we say, danceable.

Plus, no auto tuning necessary. Town-hall meetings across the country, tensions over health-care reform erupting. Tempers reaching the breaking point. You'll hear from some of those angry Americans, coming up.


ROBERTS: Tonight's "Shot" comes from the folks at, Erica. They've made a new video. You know the drill. Maybe not. More than a handful of 360 staffers were baffled when they were asked about that.

HILL: Me included.

ROBERTS: Including Erica. Basically, the idea is you take real news and real newsmakers, and you put them through an auto tune. Take a look.




ROBERTS: Now are those guys clever or what?

HILL: I like it.

ROBERTS: The Gregory brothers. I talked to them about a week ago.

HILL: Yes. Do they have favorite people that they like to auto tune?

ROBERTS: Yes. Michelle Bachmann from Minnesota.

HILL: Really?

ROBERTS: Yes. John Boehner, as well. She apparently works very well. And they also liked Hillary Clinton.

HILL: They have some new material from Secretary Clinton now.

ROBERTS: Yes, they do. They get new material each and every day, no question of that.

HILL: Yes. Never a lack of it.

ROBERTS: Thanks, Erica.

You can see all the most recent "Shots" at our Web site at

And coming up at the top of the hour, the heat over health-care reform.