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Casey Anthony`s Defense Claims Evidence Proves Her Innocence

Aired August 21, 2009 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, jaw-dropping developments. Casey Anthony, the mom charged with murdering her daughter, Caylee, in court for the first time in months. And boy, did she look devastated as her dad George took the stand.

Meantime, her lawyers unveiled stunning new legal strategy, saying they have evidence Casey`s murdered daughter was dumped in the woods after mom Casey was locked up behind bars. Therefore, she couldn`t be the killer. Is this a desperate attempt to fool the jury pool?

Then Mark Lester, a former child star who played the lead in the classic movie "Oliver!" He`s the very same guy who claims he could be Paris Jackson`s biological father. And he`s challenged by Matt Lauer. Why doesn`t this guy take a DNA test and be done with it already?

Speaking of TV appearances, Dr. Arnie Klein lawyers up with a criminal attorney. Just wait until you hear what they had to say.

And get ready to buy your tickets to the Jackson movie. We`ll tell you where and how to get in.

ISSUES starts now.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Breaking news tonight as the murder trial of Casey Anthony, accused of killing her own 2-year-old baby, Caylee, for the very first time in months the 23-year-old was called back into court. There she is. This time, Casey`s attorney dropped a real shocker.

He says the defense team has proof -- proof, mind you -- that Casey is innocent. The defense claims somebody else dumped little Caylee`s body in the woods after Casey was already arrested and behind bars. So they claim she couldn`t have done it. Oh, really? Is that so?

Meantime, they`re seeking the phone records of Casey`s ex-boyfriend. That signals a possible shift away from blaming the infamous, unnamed, and some would say totally fictional Zanny the nanny.

Casey usually appears quite stoic at these court hearings, but today she got very her emotional as her dad, George, took the stand to answer questions about bounty hunter Leonard Padilla.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, Mr. Anthony, how did the person communicate from the backyard to the other -- the other people from Ms. Cherpandia`s (ph) group?

GEORGE ANTHONY, FATHER OF CASEY: As far as I would know, probably through a cell phone or a portable radio. I`m not really sure exactly.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Look at that face. Where is the smirking party girl we`ve all come to know? Could the reality of this entire mess finally be sinking in? I think so, based on that expression.

And as her father, George, left the stand, he blew a kiss and mouthed the words, "I love you" to his daughter. This was the very first time he had seen her in months. Watch this.

That one moment said it all.

Cindy and George talked to reporters after the hearing about their daughter, Casey`s tears. So many developments.

Straight to my fabulous expert panel: Jayne Weintraub, criminal defense attorney; Mark Eiglarsh, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor; Thomas Luka, an attorney for Casey Anthony`s brother, Lee; Pat Brown, criminal profiler and CEO of the Pat Brown Criminal Profiling Agency; Judy Kuriansky, Dr. Judy, clinical psychologist extraordinaire; plus, by phone, Rozzie Franco of WXLA-540 AM in Orlando, Florida.

Rozzie, you watched the whole hearing today. What is the very latest?

ROZZIE FRANCO, WXLA REPORTER (via phone): Jane, Casey`s defense argues today that there is proof that someone else, not Casey, is responsible for placing 2-year-old Casey Anthony`s remains near the Anthonys` home. They claim the slain tot`s remains were dumped there while Casey was in jail.

And right now, it`s critical to the defense that volunteers from EquuSearch, including its founder, Tim Miller, testify at Casey`s trial. Her defense argues today that they can prove Casey`s innocence by showing that area had been searched by EquuSearch, and no remains were ever found.

Now, arguing that 30 volunteers had searched over 3,000 acres in that specific area, it`s not been ruled yet if the defense will get the chance to question those volunteers to prove at least one searcher may admit they searched the area and found nothing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we`re going to get to all of those details in a moment, but I think the big story here is always Casey Anthony herself. Casey and her parents emotional in court today. Here is mom Cindy right after the hearing.


CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOM: I just want to let you guys know that it was awesome to see my daughter today. It`s been a long time since I`ve seen her. And it -- it just gives me a lot of -- you know, a lot of peace to see that she actually looks OK and she`s -- looks healthy.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I thought that Casey looked very defeated. I mean, I`ve never seen that expression on her before. You see the tears, the dark circles under her eyes. She looks as little bit heavier, as well. It`s not the defiant Casey we`re used to seeing at past hearings.

Let`s compare. She looked downright cheerful. Take a look. There she is smiling. Not the demeanor of somebody accused of murdering her own daughter.

Dr. Judy, what does this change in Casey`s body language and emotional expression tell you?

DR. JUDY KURIANSKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: It tells me, Jane, that she is emotionally labile. That means that it makes perfect sense that, at one moment, she could be despondent and look despairing and at another moment, she could be totally composed. So the crying is part of this lability.

And, in fact, that it`s been dragging on so long, that some of this drama does end up getting to her, especially with her dad saying, "I love you." Which by the way, he really should have kept eye contact with her. It was very strange to me, psychologically, that he walked by after saying that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I thought it was very strange that, Cindy, her mom, seems so calm and really almost cheerful afterwards. I mean, if that was my daughter, I`d be so devastated after walking out and seeing her crying.

But let`s get back, Pat Brown, criminal profiler, to Casey Anthony herself. This is from just a layperson`s perspective. I`m not a shrink. To me, it seems, hey, the reality is finally catching up with her. She`s sitting in jail day after day and all the fantasy she had in her head and the arrogance and the cockiness has gone out the window. And she is left there with the reality of the situation that her life has become.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, I guess it`s even more telling that she has no -- I guess no belief in her own defense`s theory. I mean, they just came up with this great defense that she didn`t do this crime. She should be looking really cheerful. But apparently, they haven`t even convinced her.

JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Pat, she`s in lockdown 23 hours a day. She`s got that jail pallor now on her face going on, because she has no sunshine. She`s not outside. You know what that does to somebody. But the solitary confinement day after day, month after month, it would get to anybody.

And you notice the weight, Jane. You`re right. Because all they`re given is a couple of starches a day. It`s awful.

BROWN: Her arrogance is wearing off, though. That`s what`s happening. Her arrogance. In the beginning she thought she could control everything, and over time she`s realizing she is not winning this game.

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s one possibility, Jane, but floor possibility is that somebody sat her down and finally got in her face and said what I tell my clients in a high-profile case: "Hey, listen, the cameras are on you. Everybody is analyzing, as we are, every move you make. Wipe that ridiculous smirk off your face and take this thing seriously." And I think that`s probably what happened, especially with this new edition to the defense team.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Thomas Luka, you can`t -- you can`t fake tears or force tears. And this was actually the first time that, just from a heart perspective, I felt sorry for her, Thomas.

BROWN: Oh, why?

LUKA: Well, again, Jane, you have to remember. It is -- the trial is coming up. It was set for -- as far as I know, the trial is set for October.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, please. That`s never going to happen.

WEINTRAUB: Give it up.

EIGLARSH: What year?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: October 2015 maybe.

LUKA: Right. Even so, she is charged with capital murder. She is staring the death penalty straight in the face. I mean, anybody, innocent or guilty, is going to have that particular -- is going to be -- take that seriously at some point in their own mind.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I agree with Pat Brown. It`s shocking that, when they finally come up with this defense that says -- it proves that she`s innocent, that`s when she decides to cry.

Let`s look at the time line. EquuSearch led several extensive ground and aerial searches for Caylee last summer. Then, on October 14, Casey was indicted for murder and thrown in jail. A few weeks later, EquuSearch temporarily put searches on hold because of a lot of ground water. In December, Caylee`s remains were found. So the defense is arguing, Mark Eiglarsh, they searched, didn`t find the body, and then after Casey`s locked up, they do.

EIGLARSH: Yes, that`s huge. And we don`t know if the evidence supports it at all. The defense wishes it did. But if you can create reasonable doubt by suggesting that they searched the area and her body wasn`t there, and she`s locked up when they do find it, look, you can have a ton of really damning evidence. But if the jurors can`t get past that issue, that could be reasonable doubt.

WEINTRAUB: I`ll tell you something. Sorry. In a death penalty case, especially in Florida, the state should not be objecting to any of this. Because it is -- it is worthy that it is to be explored. And under our rules of discovery, the state has the obligation to lift any witness that may have relevant information to the charge. That doesn`t mean whether or not it`s admissible. That just means that they need to turn those records over so that the defense can explore it.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thomas Luka, here`s the problem with the theory.

KURIANSKY: Any reasonable person would understand and know that a body can be moved. I think also it`s very significant that you said, Jane, that you felt sorry for her. This is consistent with histrionic personalities, that they can be...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m not histrionic.

KURIANSKY: No, I meant -- I mean, with Casey being histrionic that they can -- they have over emotions. And they`re convincing about them because they really feel them, but they feel them more extreme than normal people do.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, when we come back, we`re going to talk about the fact that there is a fantastic argument against their theory that she must be innocent. And that is that Tim Miller, the head of EquuSearch, said they could not search the specific area where little Caylee was ultimately found because, guess what? It was under water. So why did they want more than the 32 people who actually searched that area? Probably to find some nut job, some sort of off the wall...

EIGLARSH: That`s it. That`s it.


EIGLARSH: That`s it. That`s what you want. You got one or two people who say, no, we really did search that area. And the body wasn`t there, and that`s it. That could be your ticket out.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: More developments in the Casey Anthony case in just a moment.

And we`re taking your calls: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.

Casey Anthony breaks down when her dad blows her a kiss. Clearly she wants out of jail. Is her defense team`s new strategy her ticket to freedom? Or a desperation move?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The body or the remains of Caylee Anthony were placed there after Casey Anthony was locked...




LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Caylee, the only unreasonable doubt, is deceased. The FBI knows it. Orange County knows it. Cindy and George know it. And most of all, Casey, the perpetrator of her death, knows it.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That was bounty hunter Leonard Padilla before Caylee`s body was discovered. Remember, Padilla was once a supporter of Casey. He even bailed her out of jail. Then he turned on her, became her harshest critic. Now the defense wants to muzzle him. One more piece of the drama surrounding this case. We`re going to take calls in a second.

But first, Rozzie Franco, give us the insight into this whole battle over Leonard Padilla.

FRANCO: Jane, they don`t want this guy saying anything. As you can see, Padilla is very open to the media. And he talked to a number of reporters, and his story hasn`t changed. As soon as Casey got out of jail, she went into her home, and she told someone in -- that was a security guard a lot of information. And he says he`s privy to that information and he`ll let it go.

WEINTRAUB: Not a security guard...

EIGLARSH: I don`t buy it. I don`t -- I don`t...

WEINTRAUB: It`s not a security guard. It`s somebody who works for Padilla. And as working for Padilla, he is bound by the contract of privacy and an arm of the defense ministry.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Why is that?

LUKA: Not necessarily.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thomas Luka, I don`t buy it. I mean, this guy is Casey`s harshest critic and then want to keep him quiet because of it. Go ahead.

LUKA: He`s only bound -- he`s only bound by confidentiality if, in fact, he was in the employ of an attorney at the time the statement was made. I don`t believe that was true in this particular case. I think they`re going to have to find it very difficult to put a muzzle on Mr. Padilla, and any comments that he may or any of his employees may have to say.

EIGLARSH: Jane, regardless, this is a -- this is a win-win -- this is a win-win for the defense. Either they`re able to keep his statements out, or the state is going to call Leonard Padilla, a guy who suffers from Spotlightis Embiosis, to be able to destroy him? They will destroy him.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t know about that, Judy Kuriansky, because this guy is unflappable. Like him or don`t like him, and I don`t know if he can wear his hat when he`s taking the witness stand, he does stick to his guns, so to speak.

KURIANSKY: Yes. And when people are that consistent with what they say, they end up sounding a little bit believable, but everybody in this case is suspicious of -- in my view, psychologically, for what they end up saying and whether or not they really are believable, because it`s become a drama rather than a real situation.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s become a circus.

Let`s go to the phones. Robyn, Louisiana, your question, ma`am?

CALLER: Yes, I`d like to make a comment about Casey`s demeanor, the way she acted in court today.


CALLER: I think she`s honestly starting to realize how much trouble she is in and that she -- she may be going to jail for the rest of her life, and it`s not a game anymore.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Pat Brown, it`s beyond going to jail for the rest of her life. She could face...

BROWN: The death penalty. Yes, Jane, but that`s something that`s a little bit scarier. People who are psychopaths, when they get into the jail, they know that they can manipulate everybody, and they can have a pretty darn good time in some ways. So it`s the death penalty that really freaks them out.

And that`s why some psychopaths and serial killers will say, "Well, I don`t mind killing, but I won`t kill in a death penalty state."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, let`s...


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, go ahead.

WEINTRAUB: Jane, can I just bring on Padilla before we lose it? You know, with an attorney-client privilege, the privilege belongs to the client. With a work product privilege, such as this with Padilla, the privilege belongs to the lawyer. The lawyer and Padilla have a signed private confidentiality agreement.

This security guard that Pat was talking about before is not a security guard. He`s an employee of Padilla. And, therefore, don`t you think the client should have the right to feel comfortable talking in those -- in those people`s heads and be able to share information?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m not sure that he did sign a contract with the lawyer. As Thomas Luka said, that`s just a big hypothetical.

EIGLARSH: Well, that`s going to be something that the judge...

WEINTRAUB: It`s a confidentiality agreement. It`s not a contract for a book, like Padilla wants.

EIGLARSH: But here`s the thing. There`s no Fourth Amendment, First Amendment. There`s no constitutional issue that`s triggered here. Even Judge Strickland said today, as I watched the hearing, "Wait a second. Just because you have some agreement with Leonard Padilla, I`m not bound by that agreement. And so if he wants to come into court and say those things, well, I may let him do it."

WEINTRAUB: I have to believe...


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think this guy is much more dangerous in the sense that anybody -- because he was in the house. He was in the house.

BROWN: I agree.

EIGLARSH: Wait a second. Hold on one second. This woman, Casey Anthony, is questioned for hours over and over and over again. She never admits anything to anyone. All of a sudden she`s bearing her soul to Leonard Padilla? Come on.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: When you`re in the comfort of your own home you let your guard down.

LUKA: And if you have -- if you have the appearance of confidentiality you may end up dropping that guard. And that`s the key.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Say that again, Tom.

LUKA: The appearance of confidentiality. If there`s an appearance of confidentiality, or she thought there was confidentiality, she may have dropped her guard. We don`t know that.

BROWN: I don`t believe that. The psychopaths are always in the manipulation mode 24 hours a day. The only reason she would have, quote, "dropped her guard" is because she thought she was going to get something out of whatever she was doing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: If she`s a psychopath, why is she crying?

BROWN: Psychopaths cry for themselves.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I might ask -- hold it, hold it, hold it. Dr. Judy?

KURIANSKY: It is entirely possible, Jane, to be psychopathic with other features. And that`s why I`m saying she has histrionic features, which means she can cry crocodile tears.

BROWN: Lots of people cry crocodile tears.

KURIANSKY: And look real.

BROWN: Wait a minute, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Look at all these guys that come on television and stand in front of the cameras and say, "My child has been murdered and I don`t know what happened to him. My wife is gone," cry, cry. And then they`re the ones that killed them, put them underneath the cement.

WEINTRAUB: But she hasn`t done that before. And you can see genuine sincerity in her eyes.

BROWN: Oh, she`s no genuine sincerity.

EIGLARSH: None of this matters until -- until we come to game day. The only thing that matters is how she`s acting in front of the 12 people who are going to decide her fate. This is all practice.

LUKA: The problem is, though, Mark, the 12 people may be watching TV today and watching this right now and seeing her reaction to -- to the hearing today.

EIGLARSH: They won`t make commentary (ph)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on. We`ll be back in a second. Hang on.

We`ve got more. Today with Casey Anthony`s first court appearance in months. How did she hold up? Better yet: how did her defense team do? Those answers, plus, the latest on the investigation right after the break.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Each person would communicate from the back yard to the other -- the other people from (UNINTELLIGIBLE). On the radio. I`m not really sure, exactly.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Casey Anthony getting emotional today. Her lawyers want the phone records of one of her ex-boyfriends, Anthony Lazzaro. Now the father of another ex-boyfriend said he thinks Casey was trying to set up his son to take the fall for the murder. Listen to this.


RICHARD GRUND, JESS GRUND`S FATHER: You said fine. She shows up. He figured he`s going to get to see Caylee in the process. But she shows up by herself and says, oh, Caylee is with the nanny at the beach.

And he noticed that she was clean. She didn`t really need a shower. She went into the bathroom to take the shower and left the bathroom door open. Jesse had enough commonsense at that point to go into another room and get in front of the television.

The minute he told me that, I just had this chill. Maybe she was there to grab something from that bathroom. Maybe she was there to begin to plan however she was going to explain what was going on.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Pat Brown, a very few people buy the Zanny the nanny story, that this mystery nanny, this Zenaida Gonzales, the nanny took the child. So now, could they be switching to, hey, a boyfriend did it. And that`s why they want to phone records of this boyfriend, Anthony Lazzaro, who actually helped out the cops, at one point by wearing a wire and interviewing Thomas Luka`s client, Lee Anthony.

BROWN: Absolutely. I have been brought into profile crime by defense attorneys. And I`ve actually had them say, "OK, what do you think happened?"

I said, "The guy murdered her in the garage. Absolutely murder one."

"OK, well, ignoring that, what other story could be possible? What other way could this woman have been murdered? How about a car jacking?"

I`m like -- and they want you to -- they go and create stories. This is what goes on behind closed doors, many a time. They create a story and look for a way to tell it...

WEINTRAUB: That`s not imagination. That`s reality. He was on the computer typing chloroform searches. That`s reality. This is not fiction. That`s fact. This is not something the defense made up. And you know, honestly...

BROWN: The defense, they take one thing and they turn it into a story that they think they can sell the jury. There is -- that`s one of my objections to the way our defense attorneys in America...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to clarify something any way. Hold on. I think I`ve got to do a fact check here, Rozzie Franco. I don`t think Tony Lazzaro was Googling the substance that Jayne just mentioned. That was...

FRANCO: That was found -- that was found on Casey`s computer, whatever they took as evidence. They couldn`t prove whether Tony did that or whether she was going Googling it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And now they`re going to say he did that so they could start shifting the blame or they come up with some kind of theory or incredible story to the jury.

BROWN: Well, then they -- they have to look at all the evidence to prove something`s true. But they`re just trying to sway the jury at this point. We all know that`s...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Can I ask a question?

WEINTRAUB: You know, the job of the prosecutor isn`t to win or convict at all costs. The job is to seek the truth and to see justice. Especially in a death penalty case, where you`re looking to kill somebody.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Can they just say, "Never mind. We want to throw Zanny the nanny and that entire story out the window"? I mean, how do you put that genie back in the bottle?

EIGLARSH: Let me explain how this works. They don`t have to commit to any offense for me, for you, for anyone. Their job, as Jayne Weintraub, who I actually agree with, is trying to point out, is to discover all the possible evidence that could assist their case. The only time they have to commit to a defense is when they get up and do their opening statement. That`s their obligation, and that`s their job.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And with that, without the gavel, we`re out of time. Thank you, fantastic panel.

The latest in the grizzly murder of a swimsuit model.

Then, the L.A. pharmacy that Michael Jackson used for years raided. We`ll have the very latest.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mark Lester, a former child star who played the lead in the classic movie "Oliver." He`s the very same guy who claims he could be Paris Jackson`s biological father and he`s challenged by Matt Lauer. Why doesn`t this guy take a DNA test and be done with it already?

Speaking of TV appearances, Dr. Arnie Klein lawyers up with a criminal attorney. Just wait until you hear what they have to say. And get ready to buy your tickets to the Jackson movie. We`ll tell you where and how to get in.

But first, new developments tonight in the international man hunt for a murderer. Cops, federal agents and Canadian authorities continue their desperate search for the suspect, reality TV star Ryan Jenkins. The self- proclaimed multimillionaire is charged with the grisly, and I mean grisly murder of his 28-year-old swimsuit model Jasmine Fiore. Late today, U.S. marshals offered a $25,000 bounty for any information that leads to this creep`s arrest. That`s their wedding photo, by the way.

TMZ has brand-new video of Jasmine vacationing with an ex-boyfriend back in July in Mexico. Could jealousy over that liaison have driven her ex-husband to murder? Despite her vacationing with another guy, Jasmine was back with Jenkins this month. These pictures, there it is, taken just two weeks ago, show Ryan and Jasmine seemingly happy together.

Now he`s accused of killing her in a horrible way. The couple had a major blowout a week ago and that was the last time Jasmine was seen alive. Hours after that alleged argument, Ryan Jenkins spotted leaving that hotel alone with a suitcase. Operative words, suitcase. The very next day, Jasmine`s body was found naked stuffed in a suitcase which had been thrown in a dumpster-like trash. Authorities revealed the really gory, and I mean gory details surrounding her murder last night.


KEN COOVERT, BUENA PARK POLICE DEPT: Your question was about mutilation? Yes. We`re prepared to answer that question at this time. Yes, the fingers and teeth were removed.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look at her family in the background, just almost collapsing. This is nauseating. Because of the lack of teeth and fingerprints, the DA`s office tells us Jasmine Fiore had to be identified through her breast implants.

Straight out to my colleagues, the expert panel, Mark Eiglarsh, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor, Jayne Weintraub, criminal defense attorney. Judy Kuriansky, the Dr. Judy, clinical psychology. Pat Brown, criminal profiler and CEO of the Pat Brown Criminal Profiling Agency. And Mike Walters, the one and only assignment manager for TMZ.

Mike, you are all over this case. I`m almost afraid to ask, what is the very latest?

MIKE WALTERS, TMZ: Well I`ll tell you what, I think they have the smoking gun in this case and that is a surveillance tape from this swanky hotel in San Diego where they have Ryan and Jasmine going in looking like a totally happy couple carrying suitcases, going to this poker tournament that they went to.

Now, they also have the tape where Ryan comes out Friday morning by himself with suitcases and, guess what, one of the suitcases resembles the case found in Buena Park in that dumpster. That`s what they are looking at now. And I`ve got to tell you, you talked about the breast implant serial number, someone actually thought it out enough to cut off fingers, take out teeth but then call it in themselves? I mean, that is what the operating theory is here. We don`t want to convict them, but it`s unbelievable that that`s how it was thought out. And obviously, hopefully, the $25,000 bounty that just came out might help them to get closer to where Ryan is. But at this point, no Ryan, no white Mercedes, no fingers, no teeth, they don`t have anything yet.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And they think he may be in Canada. Ryan Jenkins, a contestant on the VH-1 reality show "Megan Wants a Millionaire," watch him in action.


RYAN JENKINS, REALITY TV CONTESTANT: Time with Megan alone was enough to let her get in touch with my deeper side and redeem myself for you know, some of the silly things I said at dinner.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Deeper side and redemption? Oh my god, the show`s production company now admits they didn`t vet him properly. Hmm, yes, I think that`s the understatement of the century and they will quote "do better in the future."

Ryan Jenkins reportedly has a criminal record in Canada for assaulting another girlfriend a few years ago. On the show he was nicknamed smooth operator. Dr. Judy, though, how do explain that this guy appears so polite on television, but can allegedly, allegedly strangle his ex-wife, cut off her fingers, radio and allegedly cut off her fingers and pull out her teeth and then stuff her naked in the suitcase?

JUDY KURIANSKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGY: This is a violent psychopathic guy who already, as you said, has a criminal history, extremely narcissistic, thinking that he can get away with everything and then on top of that, he had a sex addiction as he was diagnosed from the last time, that he assaulted a girlfriend. It`s a very horrific case. He obviously then committed the crime of passion, lost it when he realized that this woman that he married was off with another guy. This is what happens with guys like that when they are cuckolded, when they realize that the woman they want is off having sex with another guy.

JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Where is the evidence of any of this, Jane?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: We don`t know that she had sex with anybody. Go ahead, Michel.

EIGLARSH: Let me just say two words, Ted Bundy. I mean here`s a guy who was, you know, he was as charming as they come and was just vicious. And I don`t know if this guy is guilty or not. Let`s give him the presumption of innocence so Jayne Weintraub doesn`t yell at me. But you know, he would have one appearance on the show and then apparently a vicious monster who is capable of chopping off fingers and pulling out teeth.

KURIANSKY: He is a monster. And Jayne, you always say, don`t convict somebody until it`s proven, but in my psychological view, this is a guy who ended up finding out that his estranged wife was off with someone else, texting her ex-boyfriend, and totally lost it by choking her, and then trying to cover it up and trying to get rid cleverly of anything that would identify her.


PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Not cleverly enough because he didn`t plan on this unexpected thing that her breast implants would actually identify her, because if he had known that, she would have been at AAA when they found her.

KURIANSKY: Oh right, and who would ever dream of that? Now we`ll know about that, but who would ever think of that before? Somebody told him, I bet, that he murdered her by choking her and then someone told him you better do something to cover it all up and they identified victims by their teeth.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second, nobody needs to tell - unfortunately, sadly, because of our TV shows and movies, that are so obsessed with crime, nobody needs to tell anybody anything. Everybody knows about fingerprints and about teeth, dental. It`s the -- I`m not trying to knock "CSI," but it`s called the "CSI" effect that we all know about these sort of basics of criminology at this point.

Let`s get into this case in depth. Jasmine Fiore`s family and friends spoke to "Larry King Live" about what she knew about their relationship. Listen.


GWENDOLYN BEAUREGARD, FAMILY FRIEND OF JASMINE FIORE: She didn`t tell me that she married him. She told me the day that they met, which was St. Patrick`s day. She called me the day after and she said, mommy, I met the most perfect guy in the world and his name is Ryan. And she just went on and on and on about Ryan and how perfect he was and that was all I knew.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s not actually her mom. That`s a woman that she calls mommy but every time I hear the word perfect, I always grab my wallet, as they say. Jasmine`s mom, her real mom says that this guy was insanely jealous and the last time that they were seen together they apparently got into this major blowout in San Diego. A source told ABC News, "she was being very rude and putting Ryan down." They also said, "She has a cunning sense of humor and he was really angry."

Still, Pat Brown, it`s hard to imagine put-down humor can lead to alleged strangulation.

BROWN: That`s true but unfortunately what happens to a lot of women, or some women is they don`t give the relationship long enough, really take their time, slowly get to know someone so that the can find out what kind of person they really have. What they do is they jump in, especially when the guy has million dollars. Because if this guy ran a gas station, for example, she probably wouldn`t have given him the time of day. But she met this guy, oh god, he`s got tons of money, I can see myself on a plane, I can see myself in Paris. And all that excitement goes to your head and you start minimizing his other issue.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I mean he`s a good looking guy. I don`t say that with anyone, but he`s a presentable, good looking guy.

BROWN: But he`s immediately manipulative. You can see that. Even Megan on the show says he was manipulative. So I`m sure those things started popping up pretty quickly. But the thing is, you`re excited about what he represents and you start minimizing the things that you`re seeing because you don`t want to give that relationship up because you think it has something to offer you.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me see the panel.

EIGLARSH: Jane, one issue I wanted to raise. I mean this confident, good looking guy, may if he`s caught, be facing the death penalty. But here`s the problem.


EIGLARSH: Because he chose -- excuse me -- because he chose to go to Canada, they will not send him here unless California agrees to waive to the death penalty. Boy, it`s like playing tag and Canada`s the tree, you can feel safe if you make it to the tree.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me bring in Mike Walters. We`re going to show some video of Jasmine Fiore on vacation in Mexico with her ex-boyfriend Robert Hasman. Tell us about this video in a couple of seconds.

WALTERS: Well, I think it`s really important because the video shows after their marriage, she`s a married woman, she`s in Cabo in Mexico with her ex-boyfriend. This is the same guy that where we`re told that on Friday morning, late Thursday night, that text messages were going back and forth between the two which could have caused this argument where possibly the enragement, the love triangle could have had something to do with her death. So the reality is she`s off in vacation. Ryan at this time in the video you`re looking at was down in Mexico, also, but he was shooting a reality show, a second reality show. So the reality is at this point is that now you can see the love triangle there. You can see it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ve got to leave it right there.

WALTERS: Robert was at a press conference yesterday.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s not blame him and let`s not blame her. She was conflicted. It`s a horrific tragedy. Thank you, fantastic panel. A shocking crime, an even more mind-blowing confession. Police say a woman tortured a man to death for being a snitch. What world do we live in? Then, former child star Mark Lester says, he could be Paris` biological dad. Wait until you hear his reaction when he`s challenged on national television. I want to hear from you. Give me a call, 1-877-JVM-SAYS.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The stop lights keep on coming. In the wake of Michael Jackson`s death, today the DEA raids the king of pop`s favorite pharmacy. The latest in a moment. But first, "Top of the Block" tonight.

This is a super sick case. Cops arrest a woman in the brutal murder of a wheelchair-bound man whose body was dismembered and later set on fire. Listen to this.



QUESTION: How did you do it?

SIMPSON: I beat him to death.

QUESTION: For how long?

SIMPSON: How long did I beat him? Forty-five minutes, an hour.

QUESTION: He was there for three days, right?


QUESTION: What did you do during that time?

SIMPSON: Well, I killed him and cut him up.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Terry Neely`s dismembered body found in a trash can. Angela Simpson has not been charged or arraigned yet. Investigators say she was behind his killings. Simpson told police that she lured the victim into her apartment, tortured him, beat him, pulled out his teeth and strangled him with a TV cable. She said she did all of this because he was a snitch. Autopsy results showed a 3-inch nail driven into his brain. He was stabbed about 50 times and his throat had been cut. Simpson admits that Neely was awake for much of the torture and that she made him watch in a nearby mirror. Her words are truly incomprehensible.


QUESTION: But you killed other people?

SIMPSON: Well, they will find that out.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: HLN has confirmed that because this is a new case, Simpson has not yet been assigned an attorney. The court told us a mental evaluation for Simpson has not happened yet, but it will be at least a month if one is requested and the judge OKs it. We are going to have complete analysis of this head spinning story Monday night right here on "Issues." That`s just a taste of it. That is tonight`s "Top of the Block."

Tonight, fast breaking developments in the Michael Jackson death probe, plus another bizarre claim from the godfather of Michael`s three kids. Hours ago, DEA agents swooped in on what seemed to be Michael Jackson`s favorite pharmacy, the Mickey Fine Pharmacy in Beverly Doors, it`s right next door to the offices of Jackson`s friend and dermatologist, Dr. Arnie Klein. Law enforcement sources tell TMZ the feds were hunting for evidence of "improper dispensing of controlled substances" in connection with Jackson`s death.

You think? A couple of years ago, the Mickey Fine pharmacy sued Michael Jackson after he allegedly failed to pay two years worth of pills for prescription meds. The outstanding balance, more than $100,000 for less than two years of bills. That people, averages to almost $1,000 a week on meds. For the record, the case was dismissed a month after it was filed, which usually means it was settled out of court.

As for Dr. Arnie Klein, two of his lawyers showed up on "Larry King Live," last night, the day after the coroner paid a second visit to Dr. Klein`s office and six weeks since Dr. Klein himself appeared on the show.


LARRY KING, CNN ANCHOR: Since his appearance here, nobody`s seen him.

RICHARD CHARNLEY, KLEIN`S CIVIL ATTORNEY: It`s tough, as I`m sure you can imagine. And every time some new rumor pops up, paparazzi is out in front of his office and it`s making it hard for the people who know him to come see him.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, nobody ever said that being Michael Jackson`s doctor would be a cake walk. Meanwhile, remember Michael Lester, the godfather of Michael Jackson`s three kids? He`s the Brit who crawled out of the woodwork earlier this month and dropped this stunner.


MARK LESTER, GODFATHER OF JACKSON CHILDREN: I`m talking to the news of the world about when Michael asked me to become his sperm donor. I believe that Paris could be my daughter and I`d be willing to take a paternity test.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Just wait until you hear what Lester told NBC`s Matt Lauer this morning about why he says Jackson asked for that sperm.

Straight out to my fabulous expert panel, Mark Eiglarsh, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor. Judy Kuriansky, Dr. Judy, noted clinical psychologist. Firpo Carr, former Jackson spokesperson and Jackson family friend. And Jim Moret, attorney and chief correspondent for "Inside Edition."

Jim, dare we ask what is the very latest?

JIM MORET, ATTORNEY: Well, the very latest is the DEA descended, as you just indicated, on Mickey Fine`s pharmacy looking for additional information. They are really trying to put pieces of the puzzle together, how many drugs was Michael Jackson prescribed, under what names, over how long a period of time and they are really trying to connect the dots, not only with respect to how he died but also to the months leading up to his death.

But don`t forget, with the DEA and the California Attorney General involved, they are not just interested in the cause of death. They are looking into irregularities and doctor shopping and aliases and so forth, just as they did in the Anna Nicole Smith case. And this Mark Lester element, it`s kind of a bizarre comic relief to this terrible, terrible story.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t understand. Let`s see, Firpo Carr, why they waited this long to raid this pharmacy. Anybody who has covered Michael Jackson has long for a long time that they had this lawsuit a couple of years ago and that he allegedly owed him 100 grand for less than two years of pills.

FIRPO CARR, FORMER JACKSON SPOKESPERSON: Absolutely. That`s something that they should look into. I don`t know why they have waited this long either. But I also think it should be mentioned that someone else gave Michael Jackson the diprivan or the Propofol long before Dr. Murray did, because Michael Jackson apparently had been accustomed to taking that. And I think that`s something that should be looked into and as far as this Mark Lester thing is concerned, I think that I don`t wish do discount this whole thing but I do think the next person who`s going to jump out is Elmer Fudd to say that he`s this children`s father.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Mark Eiglarsh, let me get back to this. Why didn`t they raid this pharmacy two days after Michael Jackson passed away?

EIGLARSH: Oh, because we`ve got this little document called the constitution. You`ve got to put together evidence and you`ve got to -- if there`s a warrant, you`ve got to make sure that a judge signs the warrant. There has to be enough stuff to go into the warrant. And him having a huge bill, while it is a red flag, and I think that someone should have done something sooner, might not have been enough. Their investigation I think then led to the probable causes they needed to go in and raid the pharmacy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Michael Jackson admitted he was an addict. I`ve also struggled with my addition. In my new book, "I Want," I reveal details of my battle with alcoholism. You can get it.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ve all heard and seen that footage hundreds of times since Jackson`s sudden death June 25th. Well, there are more than 80 hours of footage from his comeback tour rehearsals to be turned into a movie. "Michael Jackson: This Is It" in theaters for a limited two-week release on October 28th. But get this, you can buy ticket as early as September 27th online or at movie theaters. So mark those calendars, September 27th.

Phone lines lighting up. Evelyn, West Virginia, your question.

CALLER: Yes, ma`am, I just think that people need to leave the kids alone. Michael was the only father that those kids ever knew and they just need to leave him alone.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree with this caller. The interlopers who come in and say, I might be the father without taking a DNA test first, I think it`s irresponsible.

KURIANSKY: Yes, it`s true. It reopens the whole issue, Jane, though, of Michael Jackson`s sexuality. It is quite explosive that this godfather of the children says he was -- he, meaning Michael Jackson, was very shy around women, and found it very difficult to actually do the sexual act. Now we know that Michael Jackson grabbed his crotch during a lot of his dancing. And there was an entire question about sexuality in his marriage with Lisa Marie Presley and the public is quite interested with the issue of fatherhood and whether or not this was a natural act or an insemination. People want to know about that.

EIGLARSH: Dr. Judy, can we go back to the crotch grabbing? What does that have to do anything?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Time out. OK, Firpo, why is he afraid of the act -- I mean, was he -- this seems to apply that he was asexual.

CARR: Michael Jackson was not asexual. Of course, I don`t know that to be sure because I haven`t had any reason to know about the details of anything he`s done in private, but I will say this. His religious upbringing, once again, being brought up as one of Jehovah`s Witnesses, it is against the tenets of their religion and the bible for someone to have sex prior to marriage, or to have extramarital sex. So Michael Jackson under the guise, perhaps, of being shy -- and of course, he was that too, but he was also still trying to embrace some of the tenets of the religion. So that`s something that needs to be taken into consideration.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Firpo, I love that, that`s a brilliant analysis, but I don`t buy it for a second, Jim Moret, that this was all because he was a Jehovah`s Witness. Obviously he had issues, as they say.

KURIANSKY: I would definitely agree with that.

MORET: But, wait a minute. Jane, to be honest with you, it doesn`t matter if somebody else did provide the DNA. It`s totally irrelevant. The fact is, Michael Jackson was the dad to these three children. He`s the only father they knew. Under California law, he had two of these kids while he was married. The law presumes he`s the father. Why would you do this to these children at this time? Especially when they`re grieving for their dad? They don`t have a mom. Leave them alone.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I agree. We`re going to end it on that note. Leave them alone, if you can`t take a DNA test to prove it. Thank you, fantastic panel. Michael Jackson admitted he was an addict. I`ve also struggled with addiction. In my new book, "I Want," I reveal details of my battle with alcoholism and how I finally got sober 14 years ago. You can pre-order my recovery memoir, You`re watching "Issues."