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ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL
More Clues Lead to Further Questions on Jackson`s Death
Aired August 26, 2009 - 19:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JIM MORET, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the unraveling mystery surrounding Michael Jackson`s death. TMZ reports paramedics say Jackson may have been long gone at least an hour before they arrived. So why did everyone wait so long before dialing 911? And what about the other drugs in Jackson`s system? Did Dr. Murray concoct a recipe for death and not know it?
And Redmond O`Neal, the drug-addicted son of Farrah and Ryan O`Neal, on reality TV? "In Touch" magazine says his dad helped broker a deal, and he`ll start filming in four months, when the troubled Hollywood offspring is sprung out of jail. Redmond says he wants to do the show to honor his mom, but is this really the healthiest reality for a drug addict?
Then, what on earth was Casey Anthony thinking when she got a tattoo that says, "Beautiful life," in Italian? A beautiful life while little Caylee is nowhere to be found? This and thousands of other shocking revelations have just been handed over to Casey`s defense team from prosecutors. You`re not going to believe what else we`ve uncovered.
Plus, did Chris Brown beat Rihanna up more than just one time? According to a probation report, the once-in-love pair were involved in at least two other domestic violence incidents before the February attack. Have there been more unreported spats? Should Rihanna keep her distance from her former boyfriend?
ISSUES starts right now.
MORET: Good evening. I`m Jim Moret, attorney and chief correspondent for "Inside Edition," sitting in tonight for Jane.
Tonight, new clues and more questions about Michael Jackson`s mysterious death. The coroner says lethal levels of Propofol are what killed him. But exactly how much Propofol would kill a man of Jackson`s size? TMZ is reporting cops don`t believe Dr. Murray`s claim that he gave Jackson only 25 milligrams of the drug.
And what about the other drugs that were in Jackson`s system. According to an LAPD affidavit, Dr. Murray gave him a combination of sedatives and anti-anxiety meds, and then topped it off with Propofol mixed with Lidocaine. Lidocaine, when given through an IV, is a cardiac suppressant. Could that have been enough to put him over the edge?
Meanwhile, as we pointed out last night, Dr. Murray told police he believed Nurse Cherilyn Lee gave Jackson a, quote, "cocktail" containing Propofol.
TMZ caught up with Lee, and she`s sticking to her story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How would you be able to prove that you didn`t do this, as Dr. Murray said you did? Can you prove it?
CHERILYN LEE, NURSE WHO TREATED JACKSON: There`s no history. There`s no history from my clinic or anywhere. I do nutritional cocktails. And maybe he got confused with the word "cocktail." My cocktail is a nutritional IV, with vitamin C.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
LEE: This is for fatigue, athletes, students.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORET: So just who is telling the truth? A critical witness might hold the key. He is itching to talk to cops. Alberto Alvarez, seen here on the Web site of the "U.K. Mirror," was the security guard who called 911.
The attorney for Mr. Alvarez says he has some important information about the June 25 timeline, and he says he wants to talk to police.
I`m taking your calls tonight, but first, straight to my panel: Dr. Kathleen London, board-certified family practice physician; Judy Kuriansky, clinical psychologist; Bryan Monroe, CNN contributor. He conducted the last domestic interview with Michael Jackson. Tom Ruskin, former New York City police detective, investigator and president of CMP Protective and Investigative Group; Tamara Holder, criminal defense attorney.
Tamara, if evidence shows that Dr. Murray has been untruthful, it would seem that he`s in deeper trouble. What`s your take on this?
TAMARA HOLDER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, he has been -- had diarrhea of the mouth from the beginning. He went -- you know, it`s lack of a better term, but he -- you know, he went to the authorities with his attorney and started talking and giving his -- his detailed timeline. That was the stupidest thing he could have possibly done. His attorney should have advised him to keep his mouth shut from the very beginning and let the police do their investigation without -- without a statement.
Now, he is locked into this timeline and what he did for Michael Jackson. And they`re going to use that to charge him with, I believe, a murder.
MORET: Well, Tom Ruskin, if you`re -- if you`re one of the cops talking to this doctor and he doesn`t choose to have an attorney present, isn`t that his problem?
TOM RUSKIN, FORMER NYPD POLICE DETECTIVE: Absolutely. And I would welcome him in any time he wanted to come in. And I would take his statement time and time and time again. And we would lock him into a statement, and we would lock him into a timeline. So later on, when we find other evidence such as his cell phone calls and other thing, he has a lot of explaining to do.
And I think he really has locked himself into possibly a murder charge.
MORET: Dr. Kathleen London, put it into perspective that we can understand as lay people. When you`re talking about Lidocaine and giving these drugs, Propofol, you -- clearly, you can`t walk out of a room like it`s being alleged that Dr. Murray may have done. You`ve got to have medical equipment. Does all of this on the surface just sound like this doctor`s in a lot of trouble?
DR. KATHLEEN LONDON, FAMILY PRACTICE PHYSICIAN: Absolutely. I mean, first of all, all the drugs he gave earlier that all end in "Z-A-M," they`re all variants of Valium. There`s shorter-acting and longer-acting. But they`re all in the class of benzodiazepine. That`s a very dangerous combination, to use that along with Propofol, as they both lower heart rate and respiratory rate.
Add into that Lidocaine, which is used because Propofol hurts when it`s going in. Lidocaine also can cause cardiac arrhythmias and lower your heart rate. And it`s a recipe for disaster. It`s why this drug is only given when you`re on a monitor, you know, with trained personnel. And this guy was way over his head. Why he was doing this is unbelievable. And to do it without a monitor is insane and does belong with a murder charge.
MORET: TMZ is citing law enforcement sources who say that the coroner has been unable to pinpoint the exact time of death, his death, according to these same sources. Paramedics believe that he was already dead for at least an hour, maybe longer. So does that offer any insight into this?
JUDY KURIANSKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely. That shows that there`s something that was going on in that time that he was afraid to really talk -- call about. This is the same thing that happened, by the way, to Heath Ledger...
MORET: Hey, let me just point out to our viewers. What we`re doing is we`re showing you the timeline as depicted in the affidavit. You see 10:40 a.m., Propofol and Lidocaine; 10:50, doctor apparently leaves the room; 10:52, Jackson`s not breathing.
Then this series of phone calls. Three cell phone calls between 11:18 and about noon. Finally, at 12:21, security called 911.
So first of all, let me -- let me go to Bryan, CNN contributor Bryan Monroe. This delay, this timeline delay, this is very troubling. We know that Michael Jackson had a say in who was around him. Many people were not allowed upstairs. The doctor was one of the only people on the staff that could be upstairs. What do you make of all these revelations coming out?
BRYAN MONROE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, the delay in calling 911 is critical. Because even if you believe the timeline laid out in the affidavit, there`s a lot of questions there. For instance, did he really just step out for a couple of minutes, as he says?
You know, that kind of medicine, that deadly cocktail being topped off with Propofol, you have got to have -- as the doctor said, it`s got to be monitored and monitored with the proper equipment right there on the spot. You can`t walk out, take -- make a few phone calls.
And then for him to take the time, as it`s alleged in the affidavit, that he made several phone calls before calling 911, that just doesn`t wash. It really doesn`t make sense.
KURIANSKY: I don`t think...
MORET: Dr. Judy?
TAMARA HOLDER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Obviously, you know...
MORET: Go on. Who`s talking there?
HOLDER: I`d like to -- I`d like to point out that what I find interesting about this timeline is pre-10 a.m. Remember, the chef went on "LARRY KING LIVE," I believe, and she said that Dr. Murray, every morning - - every morning -- went downstairs to get Michael Jackson`s breakfast. And he didn`t...
MORET: But not this morning. Not on this morning. That`s right.
HOLDER: And that is -- that time that he would do that was about 9 in the morning. So my -- my idea is that something happened terribly wrong before the Propofol, before he left the room for two minutes. Somewhere in the early morning hours, maybe even in the middle of the night and during this, you know, post-9 a.m., Dr. Murray was trying to undo what he`d already done. Which I believe, already killed Michael Jackson.
LONDON: The only thing that doesn`t...
KURIANSKY: Well, it is...
MORET: Let me talk to -- I want Dr. Judy to jump in here. Dr. Judy, I want to give you an opportunity to talk.
We saw this tape of Dr. Murray talking about himself, saying, "Don`t worry, I`ll be fine." What do you see when you see this doctor? Didn`t even mention Michael Jackson. Didn`t say this was my patient; this was my friend. What did you make of that?
KURIANSKY: I made that he has some psychological personality disorder himself. We know about all his problems that were going on in his life, so I see a lot of flat affect. And since he was so unprofessionally behaving there, Jim, then something is really desperate about this man. And that`s what I see.
MORET: We`ve got more on the Michael Jackson death probe coming up in just a bit. We`re also going to be taking your calls on this at 1-877-JVM- SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297.
Did reality TV star Ryan Jenkins have an accomplice when he killed his swimsuit model ex-wife? Well, we`re learning about a half-sister and why cops want to talk with her.
Then, new details emerge in the Michael Jackson death probe, but are we any closer to answering when Michael Jackson actually -- actually died?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. We`re on our way there. If your guy`s doing CPR as instructed by a doctor, he has a higher authority than me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERMAINE JACKSON, BROTHER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: My brother, the legendary King of Pop, Michael Jackson, passed away on Thursday, June 25, 2009, at 2:26 p.m. It is believed he suffered cardiac arrest in his home. His personal physician, who was with him at the time, attempted to resuscitate my brother.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORET: Still shocking. Welcome back. I`m Jim Moret from "Inside Edition," filling in tonight for Jane.
It`s been two full months since that tragic news conference, yet we still don`t know for a fact exactly what killed Michael Jackson or his true time of death. And when, if ever, will we know?
I`m back now with my panel. Let`s go first to Tom Ruskin, former New York City Police detective, investigator, president of CMP Protective and Investigative Group.
Tom, from an investigative perspective, you`ve got to help the coroner in getting information, and it seems like the cops in this case were thwarted from the beginning because of a lack of information.
RUSKIN: Right. It seems like they had trouble getting in touch with every single person who worked for Michael Jackson. One of the interesting people that I would want to speak to if I was running this investigation was the security guard, who seems like he wants to talk to cops. So I would get an understanding from his attorney, what he`s going to tell me, and if he tells me...
MORET: Why the -- why the heck is he in London and police haven`t talked to him? I don`t understand that.
RUSKIN: Well, I don`t either. And that`s one of the questions. If he wants to talk to cops, fly back to L.A. and speak to the cops.
But the cops have to speak to every single person in this case to put this timeline together to determine where Murray was. Was he on the phone? Was he doing something else? It`s all relevant to when Michael Jackson may have been in distress or in cardiac arrest.
MORET: Dr. Kathleen London -- wait, Dr. Kathleen London. From a physician`s standpoint, Dr. London, you know the body temperature will change after death, but this particular room the bedroom, Michael Jackson, we were told, was literally sweltering, over 90 degrees. Doesn`t that hinder the coroner`s ability to really even pinpoint with any specificity when Michael Jackson died?
LONDON: Yes. Because the body temperature will change at about a degree per hour to whatever the ambient temperature is, so if the room is that hot, it`s not going to shift a whole lot.
But the other thing that doesn`t make sense in terms of what Dr. Murray has been saying is that he only gave 25 milligrams of Propofol. I don`t believe that, because in order to -- when we use it in terms of induction of sleep, for sedation, 40 milligrams is usually given. And then there`s maintenance doses that are either given in -- continuously in a drip or given in shots as they go on, but every few minutes.
MORET: But a doctor also doesn`t usually admit to walking out of the room either.
KURIANSKY: There are a couple of things that are really important to say about these drugs, too. Even if it`s Propofol that`s found as the crowning blow, to stack those drugs, to stack those drugs, all those suppressants...
KURIANSKY: ... that can lead to cardiac arrest, depressing the central nervous system, one hour after the other, that is deadly in and of itself.
And on top of that, it has to be pointed out that having each of those drugs can be the reverse affect. By the time you give all of them, you wake the person up. They become agitated instead of falling asleep. So even that is professionally wrong.
LONDON: Well, just mixing them...
MORET: We`ve got a caller from Florida, Brenda. Brenda -- hold on, my panel. Hold on. We want to take a caller who has a question.
Brenda, are you -- can you hear me?
CALLER: Yes, I can.
MORET: What`s your question for the panel?
CALLER: OK. I`m a recovering addict and now I have my own out- patient drug and alcohol center. And I think that Michael Jackson`s death is going to make a difference to make doctors and pharmacists more accountable. Because as an out-patient, I see people coming in with so many different prescriptions and ask them, how do they get them? And I just...
KURIANSKY: Yes, I think the caller is absolutely right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The caller makes a great point.
KURIANSKY: That`s what people do. And that`s how they manipulate the poor doctors. The people manipulate, but the doctors are going to have to pay attention, and so do the pharmaceutical companies.
There`s another issue here, which is you asked me about Dr. Murray. I`m worried about his potential of killing himself, since he`s under the biggest hot seat ever here. He gave some King Kong pills to Michael Jackson over time, and this could be the biggest tragedy for him. People are after his life. He could have...
MORET: Tamara Holder, as a defense attorney -- as a defense attorney, Tamara, what -- what do you say to this doctor? I don`t even understand why this doctor was allowed to make that YouTube tape last week. I really don`t.
HOLDER: Here`s the thing. A lot of people who are criminals, what they do is they go out and they make statements. We all know about Scott Peterson going on TV. And that kind of...
MORET: But this doctor hasn`t even been charged yet. So we don`t necessarily want to call him a criminal.
HOLDER: Well, neither was Scott Peterson. Scott Peterson did an interview, and he was -- his wife was allegedly still missing. My point is, is that he is continuing to put himself out there.
But my biggest problem, something that was just brought up, is that, you know, he -- this doctor took off and left the scene after Michael was put into the ambulance. So the LAPD, I think, is making some mistakes here in the beginning. I`m not saying that they can`t recover from those mistakes, but when there is a major scene, a crime scene potentially, you lock down all of those witnesses and you make sure they do not leave the crime scene.
MORET: Well, lock down the witnesses, there was a moving van...
HOLDER: Dr. Murray was...
MORET: Bryan, jump in here. There was a moving van that came in. The family took out a lot of the stuff that was in the house. They didn`t lock down the scene or the witnesses.
HOLDER: Not at all. And he left.
MONROE: There were the -- there were the reports that they found additional medications in some of the closets that they didn`t find the first time. So I don`t know if that scene was locked down at all.
HOLDER: It wasn`t long enough. Dr. Murray was allowed to leave and go back...
RUSKIN: In the beginning -- wait a minute. In fairness to the LAPD, you didn`t know you had a crime scene. You know you have an injured victim.
HOLDER: That`s not true.
RUSKIN: You know that he`s under a doctor`s care and you know he`s going to the hospital. Until later on, when you determine that you may have a crime scene, there`s no reason to lock it down. You don`t have...
MONROE: That was -- that was determined fairly early in the process.
MORET: OK. Hold on. Let`s take another caller. We`ve got Carol from Washington who`s on the line.
Carol, what`s your question?
CALLER: Yes, I`d like to know, when Dr. Murray goes running down the back steps into the kitchen and the chef sees him, and he wants Prince, who was applying CPR to Michael at that time?
MORET: Well, that`s -- that`s a great question. And frankly, I know that a lot of people have that question. Let`s let Dr. ...
MONROE: Well, in fact, one of the questions...
MORET: I`m sorry, Bryan, I just want to get it from a doctor.
MONROE: I was going to say that -- OK.
MORET: Go on, Bryan. I didn`t mean to cut you off.
MONROE: No, I was just going to say, one of the questions that came up early on was that the doctor performed CPR on the bed, or so he said. And we know that performing CPR on a bed, not a hard surface, was an issue.
KURIANSKY: You don`t do that.
MORET: Dr. London, if you`ve got a patient who`s been in cardiac arrest for, if it came down to 12:05, you`re talking over an hour and ten minutes already, is it even going to do anything?
LONDON: OK. So the first thing you do is you yell out for help and you ask someone to call 911 even before you start doing anything. I mean, that`s -- so everything -- nothing here -- he panicked, clearly. There was, you know, things that just don`t make sense at all.
And from -- in terms of how one performs as a physician and -- in this kind of case, nothing makes sense: from the drugs he gave, everything.
KURIANSKY: The man was exceptionally desperate to do things, and nobody paid attention. You don`t -- and also, when you walk into a room that`s 90 degrees like that, that should give those people who entered that hot room some hot tips about what`s going on.
MORET: And that`s the last word. That`s the last word. Thanks to our great panel.
Hollywood offspring Redmond O`Neal, Farrah Fawcett`s drug-addicted son, gets a reality TV show. Is jail to TV the best therapy for a guy with a drug problem?
Then, Casey Anthony`s strange tattoo. Why she got inked in Italian. And wait until you hear when she got it done and what it says.
MORET: Welcome back to ISSUES. I`m Jim Moret from "Inside Edition," filling in tonight for Jane.
Farrah Fawcett`s son Redmond O`Neal is locked up on drug charges. So how is he passing the time? By brokering a deal for a reality TV show.
"In Touch Weekly" says Redmond will star in a show about addiction once he`s out of the slammer. Setting all up, dad Ryan O`Neal, yes, the very same dad who got arrested with his son for drug possession. Sources say Redmond is doing this to honor his mother. He was given special permission to leave prison so he could see Farrah before she died.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RYAN O`NEAL, FATHER OF REDMOND O`NEAL: Dr. Pirro (ph) wrote to the judge, and said this could be her last time they would ever see each other.
(on camera) You look good. You look good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORET: That was in Farrah Fawcett`s NBC documentary.
Now, it`s no secret that this kid has a troubled past: in and out of jail on drug charges, kicked out of rehab. Is a reality show really the best idea? Is this just another case of a star`s kid getting rewarded for bad behavior with a TV deal?
Out now to Kim Serafin, senior editor for "In Touch Weekly."
Thanks for joining us, Kim.
KIM SERAFIN, SENIOR EDITOR, "IN TOUCH WEEKLY": Thanks for having me.
MORET: Give us details of this deal as you know it.
SERAFIN: Yes, a source tells "In Touch" that Redmond has signed a deal to do this reality show when he`s released from this detention center, where he is now undergoing this very intense treatment for his drug addiction. That the filming will start when he gets out of this detention facility, and it`s going to focus on him getting a job, getting a real life. There will be a bodyguard there with him, a trainer with him, according to this source. And it`s going to follow him.
And he really wants to do this, this source tells "In Touch," for his mother, to honor his mother in her memory. It`s something he really, really wants to do. He wants to be off drugs because of her.
MORET: This may be good TV, but do you think it`s a good idea?
SERAFIN: You know, it`s certainly not the first time we`ve seen a celebrity rehab program where people are followed around. We follow their addictions. We follow their struggles.
Look, now with Redmond, certainly, he has been through a lot before. As you mentioned, you know, been arrested for heroin possession, DUI, the carrying heroin into a jail while he was already on bail for another conviction.
So I mean, he`s certainly been through a lot, but according to sources, he just wants to do this for his mother.
And I know there have been other reports. Alana Stewart has said Redmond is really doing well in this treatment program he`s on. He wants to kick this habit for his mother. They, of course, as you showed, they had a very emotional meeting.
And look, he wasn`t there for Farrah`s death. He saw her for that meeting, probably knew it would be the last time he`d see her alive. And he was in jail when we found out his mother had passed away. So I think if anything kicks him into full gear, it`s that.
MORET: Jim, we`ve got about 30 seconds left. Is Ryan O`Neal attached to this, then, as executive producer and he`ll be in the show? How does that work?
SERAFIN: According to this source, Ryan did broker the deal. And according to the source, he will be in it. So we`ll see what happens. Now, it`s not been bought by a network yet. So we`ll have to find out when and if we ever get to see it. But the deal, according to the source, has been signed.
MORET: So this, in short order, could be made, but not yet sold?
SERAFIN: Right. Exactly. I mean, again, the source does tell "In Touch" that the deal is signed, but you know, you know how it is with reality TV.
SERAFIN: Whether it`s sold to network, whether network picks it up, we don`t know. But I think a lot of people would be interested in seeing this, and I think, if it keeps him on the straight and narrow, that`s a good thing.
MORET: Thank you, Kim.
Coming up, Casey Anthony`s defense team got 2,000 pages of discovery documents from the prosecution today. What`s in them? The latest on the case right after the break.
MORET: What on earth was Casey Anthony thinking when she got a tattoo that says beautiful life in Italian. A beautiful life while little Caylee is nowhere to be found? This and thousands of other shocking revelations have just been handed over to Casey`s defense from prosecutors. You`re not going to believe what else we`ve uncovered.
Plus, did Chris Brown beat up Rihanna more than just one time? According to a probation report, the once in love pair were involved in at least two other domestic violence incidents before the February attack. Have there been more unreported spats? Will Brown strike again?
Welcome back to the second half of ISSUES. I`m Jim Moret from "Inside Edition" filling in tonight for Jane.
It`s a big day for the Casey Anthony defense team. They are pouring over more than 2,000 pages of documents from the prosecution. They handed over 29 CDs loaded with photos, including aerial shots of the woods where Caylee Anthony`s remains were found. Also on those CDs, pictures of Casey partying in nightclubs while her daughter was missing.
We`re also learning that her murder trial is set to start in June of next year. The defense wants Casey`s check fraud trial to start four months later. The court has not set a date in that case yet.
There`s a lot to get to, straight to my expert panel: clinical psychologist, Dr Judy -- Judy Kuriansky; former prosecutor Wendy Murphy; Florida prosecutor Stacey Honowitz; and on the phone Rozzie Franco, reporter for WFLA 540 AM.
Stacey, first to you. When we hear that the prosecution turns over documents and we`re told over 2,000 pages; they don`t have post-its on it to say, this is the important stuff. They just say here -- here`s everything right?
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Yes. You present -- in Florida, the discovery`s ongoing. So as things come in to the prosecutor of course it`s got to be turned over to the defense so there`s no unfair surprise at trial.
But we don`t put on there, "Hey, this is something you should really look at." Everything`s turned over and certainly it`s up to the defense to muddle through, get through all those documents and figure out what they think is going to be the important things at trial.
MORET: And Wendy Murphy, when you talk -- you have to turn over all these documents, right? This isn`t a choice.
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes.
MORET: The prosecution has to do this.
MURPHY: And good prosecutors just give their whole files to the defense. As well they should. And the defense -- look, let`s be honest about something.
The defense already knows what the case is against this woman. They already know and have a plan, I`m sure, about how they`re going to defend her. They sound like 2,000 pages of really important all new stuff. I don`t think so.
They`ve known the deal from day one and you can bet Casey told them the real deal on day one. The only people who don`t really know the truth is us, we the people, who aren`t entitled to much at all because although Florida Sunshine Law is generous and everyone says we get to see and hear everything, it`s a bunch of nonsense.
A judge can and does refuse to release any evidence that might interfere with the defendant`s fair trial rights. In other words, Jim, we`re getting a whole lot of nothing in this case. The truth is far, far off in the distance.
MORET: Let`s go to Rozzie Franco, reporter WFLA 540 AM. What are the latest developments? What`s the latest that you`re hearing out there.
ROZZIE FRANCO, REPORTER, WFLA 540 AM: Jim, that may be true because a lot of this information that surfaced in this particular evidence has already been out there before. We already knew that Casey got a tattoo on her left shoulder just shortly after Caylee was gone. And that tattoo was "Bella Vita" which in Italian means a beautiful life. We saw the photos that she posted on the various social networking sites that she was on.
Now what we don`t know are the two new people that was added to the witness list. We don`t have access to that and we don`t know when we`re going to get it released to the media.
MORET: Judy Kuriansky, clinical psychologist, we just hear this reference to this tattoo and this tattoo she got while her daughter was missing. It says in Italian, "beautiful life."
From a psychological standpoint, it`s just odd. It`s odd to do that, isn`t it?
DR. JUDY KURIANSKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Beyond odd, Jim. That is so inappropriate and it`s just...
MORET: Well, it`s creepy. It`s not just inappropriate, it`s creepy.
KURIANSKY: Yes, it is creepy and it buries her to an extent because that is absolutely not the way a grieving mother would behave. And so, no matter what anybody says about it, you never know how people are going to grieve, that there`s all different ways a grieving mother whose child was just missing and might be dead would not be thinking about a beautiful life. She would be thinking about horrendous, awful things and would be terrified. She would not be partying and tattooing herself.
MORET: Casey`s defense team revealed one of their strategies at last week`s hearing. Here is her attorney Todd Macaluso (ph).
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TODD MACALUSO, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: There is substantial evidence that we`ve discovered and that`s been set forth in our brief, your honor, that the body or the remains of Caylee Anthony were placed there after Casey Anthony was locked up in the Orange County Correctional Facility. There is substantial evidence and that proves, your honor, her innocence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORET: It`s the "I didn`t do it" defense. We`re going to have to wait and see what that substantial evidence is that he`s referring to.
Stacey, do you think the defense can actually prove that Caylee`s body was put in the woods while Casey was in jail?
HONOWITZ: Well, Jim, I have no idea what evidence they have or what evidence they intend to produce at trial. Obviously, they intend to put on a case because of what they`re saying.
All I can tell you is that there are going to be experts that are called by the prosecution that will be able to tell you how long the body was there. That`s based on plant life, on insect life, anything that had to be found on the remains.
So what you`re going to hear is experts from the prosecution who are going to come in and tell you that that body was there. You`re going to hear probably from Tim Miller who they wanted to come in to say that there was no way that they could search that area because of the standing water and what was going on.
Then you`re going to have her team coming I guess and say, "This is what we found and what we believe." I don`t know what`s up their sleeve. I don`t know what they intend to produce at trial.
MORET: We have about a minute left. But I want to put up that tattoo again. Casey Anthony of course looked different than we`re used to seeing her at last Friday`s hearing. She appeared very tired and certainly not the smiling party girl that we`ve come to expect.
I`m sorry, again, show the tattoo. I want to go to our prosecutor Wendy Murphy. You`re the prosecutor, you say, look at this tattoo that this woman had put on her arm while her daughter`s missing. What do you say to that juror?
MURPHY: You just point at it and go, you know what I mean. You don`t even have to make an argument about it Jim. It`s not the only evidence that she was a bad parent, but by the way, it doesn`t mean she killed her child.
She has got some stuff that demonstrates beyond any doubt that she was a horrific mother, but that`s not what the prosecution is going to have to prove. There`s going to be a weakness in the prosecution`s case because it`s possible someone else was involved.
The investigation at the beginning of this case was all about other people. Where Casey was bringing the child, to some apartment where God knows what was going on. Nefarious behavior -- remember, this case has been described as being prosecuted as a sex crime. What`s that all about? We still have so much to uncover in this case. It`s a very important case...
KURIANSKY: "Bella Vita" may not mean she killed her daughter, but it certainly shows that her state of mind, which was not the appropriate state of mind...
MORET: That`s the final word on the topic. Hold on. I don`t have a gavel. I see why she has a gavel now.
I have to thank you, my fantastic panel.
Coming up next, before he was found dead in Canada, a motel manager says Ryan Jenkins was with a mystery blond. Who was she? We`ll give you the latest, coming up next.
And Chris Brown was sentenced yesterday in the assault of ex- girlfriend, Rihanna. Now, court documents expose the history of violence between the two superstars.
We want to hear from you. Give us a call, 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1- 877-586-7297.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: ... grappling with addiction and I`m one of them. In my new book, "I Want," I reveal details of my own personal battle with alcoholism and how I finally got sober more than 14 years ago.
It`s a recovery memoir due out this fall. You can pre-order your copy right now. Just click on cnn.com/jane and look for the preorder section.
If you know someone with a substance abuse problem or an eating disorder, this book will help you cope.
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MORET: In case you`re tuning in looking for Jane, she is off this week. I`m Jim Moret from "Inside Edition" filling in.
There has been serious speculation but now it appears the truth has come to light. According to Chris Brown probation report, there were at least two instances of violence between him and Rihanna prior to that infamous February attack.
We`ll tell you all about it next, but first "Top of the Block:" tonight, Ryan Jenkins, the reality TV contestant who killed himself after being named the prime suspect in his ex-wife Jasmine Fiore`s murder was last seen checking into a Canadian motel with a mystery blond.
Today, reports say that woman could be Jenkins` half sister Alina Jenkins (ph). According to several sources, Canadian authorities are talking to the Vancouver native and police were spotted outside an apartment complex yesterday where an A. Jenkins is listed. Also, a silver PT Cruiser belonging to Jenkins` father was parked outside that very apartment complex.
Employees at the motel say Jenkins was dropped off in an identical vehicle. Could that be a match?
Plus, cops in L.A. have found Jasmine Fiore`s Mercedes. What clues will it provide?
Joining me now is Rob Brown, reporter of CTV. Rob thanks for joining us. What`s the latest?
ROB BROWN, REPORTER, CTV: Well the latest is as you recapped there, we have learned that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police may -- and we emphasize may -- have found the so-called mystery woman, that blond who apparently dropped Jenkins off.
As you know Jim, you were at that motel in Hope, British Columbia on Thursday just hours after it`s believed that he entered on foot into Canada from a tiny peninsula in Point Roberts, Washington. So this blond pulls up in her PT Cruiser. She pays for a three-day stay in cash and then leaves Jenkins alone.
We have now learned that the Mounties have been questioning Jenkins` half sister, Alina Jenkins. She`s 19 years old, she`s blonde. She lives here in Vancouver. Her mother however, and this is Ryan Jenkins` stepmother has a home in Point Roberts, Washington. This is where Ryan Jenkins pulls his boat up and then again is believed to have crossed the border on foot.
So the question is, who is that person perhaps waiting on the other side and police are working to get to the bottom of that?
MORET: As you mentioned, we`ve just learned Jenkins` half sister might have helped him.
His mother spoke out about his suicide on "Good Morning America" yesterday. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NADA JENKINS, RYAN JENKINS` MOTHER: My son is innocent and I think he panicked. I`m just, I`m dead inside. I`m devastated. I love him. He`s my only child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORET: Rob brown, I was at a news conference on Monday in Hope and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police said they believe they know who the woman is and they wanted to assure everyone there is no problem as far as public safety.
It seemed unusual. What`s the sense you`re getting up there? This is, according to them, the biggest crime would be helping him cross the border having nothing to do with the murder. Is that correct?
BROWN: That`s right. The only jurisdiction the Canadians have is over any crime that may have been committed on their soil, so the only crime that Ryan Jenkins is accused of committing on Canadian soil is failing to report at the border when he crossed.
If somebody did help him out, if he was an accessory or she was an accessory after the fact or any crime here in Canada, it would have been that infraction and that`s a relatively minor one. It carries nothing more than a fine.
They are taking this seriously, but more from an investigative point of view. They want to know exactly what happened. I don`t think they have an eye necessarily to laying a charge, because it would be very difficult to lay a charge in this case given that they would have to be able prove that this person knowingly picked this Ryan Jenkins up, knowing that he failed to report.
How can they prove that? The only people that know that is the person who may have helped him and of course Ryan Jenkins, who is now deceased.
MORET: Rob Brown, joining us from Canada, with CTV. Thank you so much for your time.
BROWN: You`re welcome Jim.
MORET: Turning now to a case of domestic violence. R&B star Chris Brown was sentenced to five years probation in the February beating of his then girlfriend, pop princess Rihanna.
We`ve learned that night was not the first time that he got violent. Chris Brown was sentenced Tuesday to probation and 1,400 hours of labor- oriented service for the assault on Rihanna. The assault which included biting, punching and choking left Rihanna bruised, battered and almost unrecognizable in this photo that you see posted on TMZ.
Now, according to Chris Brown`s probation report, we`ve learned there were two other incidences of violence during their relationship: one just three weeks before that February incident. Chris Brown issued an apology for the February incident on YouTube this past July.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS BROWN, R&B SINGER: As many of you know, I grew up in a home where there was domestic violence. I saw first hand what uncontrolled rage could do. I sought and I`m continuing to seek help to ensure that what occurred in February can never happen again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Ok. He mentioned what happened in February, but he never mentioned the two other incidents. Was that apology all spin and no heart? Maybe, considering Chris Brown was out partying last night after his sentencing.
Let`s go straight to our panel now: Judy Kuriansky -- Dr. Judy -- clinical psychologist; Stacey Honowitz, Florida prosecutor; Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor and author of "And Justice for Some;" Kim Serafin, senior editor of "In Touch Weekly."
Kim, what is the latest? Have you heard anything from the Rihanna camp?
KIM SERAFIN, SENIOR EDITOR, "IN TOUCH WEEKLY": No. But as you did mention, I think everyone was a little bit shocked to see that Chris Brown was out last night. Of course, you saw him very somber in court. And people had seen that YouTube video, where he seemed very apologetic.
The court papers also said that was embarrassed. That he really wanted to -- he didn`t want to carry on the cycle of violence that he saw in his own house. And then, of course, he`s out at this "Guys and Dolls" lounge last night, apparently singing to Michael Jackson songs and dancing.
Obviously, not that he is not allowed to have a life, but I wonder -- sort of putting on my PR cap -- if that was sort of the best way of addressing this because obviously was reporting about that last night. That he was out partying away when this is a very serious issue. When they also released a lot of other details in that report about what happened the night of this incident.
MORET: Wendy Murphy, as a former prosecutor, you must cringe when you see a defendant and you get sentenced and then the next shot is that they`re in a nightclub.
MURPHY: You know it`s just so O.J.-esque isn`t it -- to just go smirking off into the sunset and arrogant. Look, it`s bad PR. On the other hand, I don`t care that much that the guy wants to go have a life. I care about the truth that came out today, about what he did to this woman.
The description is unbelievable. And it was soft-pedaled for a while. He`s punching, punching, punching her with a big, fat ring on his hand. He strangled her until she almost lost consciousness. The studies say men who strangle women are much, much more dangerous than other kinds of batterers. And he bit her; he did a Mike Tyson on her ear. He chomped on her ear then he bit her fingers.
This guy is an animal. He did it in the past. He really hurt her bad in this one and he should have gone to jail. He will hurt another woman again.
MORET: Judy Kuriansky, do you agree?
KURIANSKY: I agree with that. Yes Jim, the statistics prove that that`s the case. That one-time battering leads to at least three more. I think his apology was thin and it was meaningless. I think the judge is an outrage. This guy should be locked up and punished. That`s the only way that he is ever going to get anything through his thick skull.
And on top of that, his being given group therapy is ridiculous. I think he needs some deeper therapy than that and on top of that, family therapy. Because he was even quoted as saying, his stepfather hit his mom, made him terrified, felt he had to pee on himself. He was going to go crazy on him, the stepfather, if you don`t get to the source of this battering and anger which is as a family, nothing is ever going to change.
He`s going to beat more women. This guy is a terror to society and women.
MURPHY: But Jim, let me tell you something.
MORET: Stay right where you are. We have to take a quick break. We`re going to be back with more on Chris Brown right after the break.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE PATRICIA SCHNEGG, LOS ANGELES SUPERIOR COURT: Remember, even though you have probation, this is a felony. And it does come with the potential of state prison if you should violate in any way the terms and condition of this probation or pick up any new case. Do you understand that? I just want to make myself perfectly clear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORET: That was the judge at Chris Brown`s sentencing. He was sentenced to serve five years probation, 1,400 hours of labor-oriented service for the February 8th felony assault of his former girlfriend, pop princess, Rihanna.
Stacey Honowitz, why did the judge specify that it had to be labor- oriented service?
HONOWITZ: Jim, I think that she was really trying to send some sort of message, that even though you`re not getting any jail time for this case, what you have to do has to be meaningful in the form to show you that you`re being punished for something criminal that you did. And so you`re not going to go and work in the soup kitchen and give out -- excuse me -- and give out soup. You`re going to do something labor intensive.
KURIANSKY: Oh, that is...
MORET: Hold on, Dr. Judy. Wait, wait.
HONOWITZ: I didn`t do the sentence, the judge did the sentence.
Let me just say one other thing. This should really, really shout out to women that when something happens to you, you need to report it. There are two priority instances in this case and then finally, this third one, where she was beaten to a pulp.
You have to have the courage to go forward, to report it to the police, and to go forward on a prosecution. Because many times, once the police get involved, the woman will call the state attorney`s office and say she doesn`t want to go forward. She doesn`t want to be embarrassed. She doesn`t want to be cross-examined. She doesn`t want to air her dirty laundry. This is a perfect example for those women out there, if you`re in a domestic violence situation, you must come forward.
Why the judge made that clear to him was because this is a negotiation between the state and the defense. He wasn`t getting jail time and she wanted to make sure that some sort of punishment, some sort of lesson was taught to him.
MORET: And I just want to make a point here. I`m the only guy on screen right now. There are four women.
I have two daughters. They`re both in their 20s. If one of my daughters, God forbid, is treated like Rihanna was treated, I want her to come forward and I would support that, even though it`s clearly difficult, because you have to testify.
Dr. Judy, it`s clearly difficult in a situation where a woman goes back, time and again. But you`ve got to stress that the only way to empower these women is to have them stand up for their rights.
KURIANSKY: I agree. The women should definitely, as you said Jim, should stand up for their rights. And Rihanna has her own, and all women like her, has her own psychological conflicts that they let the guys back in and allow that them make that so thin apology, oh, I`m so sorry, that means nothing. You just melt, but it`s totally useless, because they go back into the buildup when they get angry and then the blow up.
MURPHY: Because we live in a culture...
MURPHY: We live in a culture that has so little respect for women, we tell them, "oh, forgive them, go back."
KURIANSKY: This is the legal system going wrong.
MORET: Hold on. This is nothing we`re going to solve now. I want to thank my panel. I want to thank you. We are, unfortunately, out of time. We`re clearly going to follow this a lot more. I promise you.
Thank you, all of you.
If you had 24 hours to live, would you finally forgive the one who hurt you the most? Could you recognize what you`re truly grateful for?
These are just some of the answers I look for in my new book, "The Last Day of My Life." It`s coming out in November 1, it`s available now for pre-order on amazon.com.
I`m Jim Moret from "Inside Edition ". You`re watching ISSUES with Jane Velez-Mitchell.
Thank you so much for watching. We will see you again right here on HLN tomorrow night.