Return to Transcripts main page


Details Emerge of 18-Year Kidnapping

Aired August 28, 2009 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, a twisted, almost incomprehensible ordeal stretching 18 torturous years. The victim, an innocent 11-year-old kidnapped by a known sex predator, hidden from the outside world, forced into motherhood. How did her abductor keep her hidden for so long? Where does Jaycee Dugard turn, now that she`s free?

Then, breaking developments in a swimsuit model`s death. The royal Canadian mounted police say they now know who helped reality TV star Ryan Jenkins in the days following his ex-wife`s brutal murder. Who is she? Why did she help the alleged killer? And will the discovery of Jasmine Fiore`s Mercedes help authorities piece together this horrific murder mystery?

Plus, Michael Jackson, the King of Pop, murdered? The L.A. County Coroner`s office officially announced the cause of death. We`ll tell you what was said, how it will affect the investigation. And why did some rotting marijuana found in Jackson`s bedroom send his family into an absolute tizzy? Wait until you hear what they mistake the illegal weed for, why it sent cops on the hunt for balloons and razors.

ISSUES starts right now.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. I`m Jim Moret from "Inside Edition," sitting in tonight for Jane.

First, breaking news in the death of pop icon Michael Jackson. The L.A. County Coroner`s Office rules Jackson`s death is a homicide. The coroner says the cause of death is acute Propofol intoxication. Propofol, a powerful anesthetic used in hospitals. But a cocktail of other drugs contributed to his death. We`ll have much more on this breaking news in a few minutes.

Also breaking news tonight in the Jaycee Dugard abduction horror case. The young girl missing for 18 years. We have brand-new details of her unthinkable captivity and an interview with her captor that is simply beyond belief.

Police are raiding the home of 58-year-old kidnapping suspect Phillip Garrido. They`re looking for possible evidence in the murders of several prostitutes. Their bodies were found in the 1990s, dumped in an industrial park near where Garrido works.

He and his wife, Nancy, are facing 29 counts in the Dugard case, including kidnapping, false imprisonment, forcible rape. Maximum penalty on all these charges, life sentence. They have both pleaded not guilty.

Police say Garrido kidnapped little Jaycee Dugard back in 1991. She was just 11 years old. In the 18 years since, Jaycee has been locked away in a bizarre hidden compound behind Garrido`s California home. Police say he raped Dugard and is the father of her two daughters. The girls are now 15 and 11, and they`ve lived their entire lives in Garrido`s backyard prison.

Now shocking words from this apparent monster are showing us how disturbed he really is. Listen to what he told a local reporter from jail.


PHILLIP GARRIDO, ACCUSED OF KIDNAPPING JAYCEE DUGARD: The last several, several years, was I completely turned my life around. And you`re going to find the most powerful story coming from the witness and the victim. You wait. If you take this a step at a time, you`re going to fall over backwards. And in the end you`re going to find a most powerful heartwarming story. Something that needs to be understood. That`s about as far as I can go.


MORET: Wow. Heartwarming story. I cannot even imagine being Jaycee`s parents and hearing those words.

So much to get to with my expert panel: Scott Kernan, California Department of Corrections; former criminal investigator Steve Kardian; CNN legal analyst Lisa Bloom; Dr. Dale Archer, clinical psychiatrist; Robin Sax, prosecutor and author of "Predators and Child Molesters; and Ed Lavandera, reporting from our sister network, CNN.

Ed, what`s the latest?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, late this afternoon Phillip Garrido and his wife, Nancy, were in court where they have been issued the charges against them. Almost 30, 29 felony counts against them, including charges, felony charges of kidnapping and rape, as well. They are being held without bond.

We are outside Phillip Garrido`s home here in Antioch, California, where authorities from the local police department of nearby Pittsburgh, California, are carrying out a search warrant as we speak. It`s hard to see the officers right now. But they are inside the home right now, searching through it in relation to murders dating back to the mid-to early `90s. So that is what`s going on here at the scene right now -- Jim.

MORET: And Ed, the description of the area behind the house is so hard to imagine that it was hidden from view, and it was a series of sheds and tents. And effectively, this young girl and her two daughters, now, at the hands of a predator, were basically captives for all this time. Is that your understanding?

LAVANDERA: So hidden to the point where we`ve heard from several neighbors who have actually been in the backyard, who have been in there, had walked around, spoken with Phillip Garrido and said that they -- that they never noticed anything out of the ordinary. That is what, you know, lends the shocking nature to this story.

MORET: You`re looking now at an aerial view, presumably from Google Earth, as we zoom in on that area.

Robin Sax, prosecutor and author of "Predators and Child Molesters." Robin, this is your area of expertise. But I can`t imagine that this case doesn`t just shock you.

ROBIN SAX, PROSECUTOR/AUTHOR: It is. No matter how many cases one deals with as a prosecutor, you hear a case like this. And as a mother this is your worst, worst possible nightmare in terms of the worst type of criminal that is out there.

MORET: I mean, I met your beautiful little daughter backstage. And you know, I have three kids. Imagining -- I don`t want to imagine this, frankly. It`s just horrific.

But what do you do as a prosecutor, now? You`ve got the people in custody. You know, the victims` lives are all in shambles. But you`ve got to go forward. What`s the first thing you do?

SAX: Well, the best part of this case is that this case is occurring in the state of California. And it`s not very often that I say California has the best laws on the book. But in terms of sex crime and sex strikes here, we have the ability as prosecutors to charge sex crimes as life crimes.

Because there is kidnaps and because there is a sex crime that occurred for sure, based on when the sex act occurred, these defendants are dealing with 15 years to life just on one count alone. So for as heart- wrenching as this is, we`ve got lots and lots and lots of time that`s potentially fileable against the Garridos.

MORET: This case is so unimaginable and sick. There is no excuse, obviously, for what Phillip Garrido and his wife allegedly did. But does he understanding or even forgiveness? Garrido says it was a mistake and that he`s a changed man. Listen.


GARRIDO: It`s a disgusting thing that took place with me in the beginning, but I turned my life completely around and to be able to understand it you have to start there. I`m so sorry. I want to help you further, but I also need to protect the sheriff`s office here. I need to protect the federal government, and I need to protect the rights of Jaycee Lee Dugard.


MORET: I don`t even know what to say about that.

Steve Kardian, let me go to you. In all your years as an investigator, have you ever heard such -- such a monster like this reforming?

STEVE KARDIAN, INVESTIGATOR: No, no. These type of people, Jim, they never reform. That`s a part of the problem, is that they -- they repeat so often and so proven that, no, no, this man is a monster.


MORET: Lisa Bloom? Yes, Lisa, I was going right to you. I could -- I could feel you wanting to say something.

BLOOM: Yes. To say something is a mistake is outrageous. A mistake is something that you do once. To hold a girl captive for 18 years, with all of the meticulous planning that went into that, the building of the sheds and the tarps in the backyard, impregnating her twice. God knows what he did to those other two little girls who were around the age that Jaycee was when he abducted her.

I mean, this man is facing 28 counts. He should be facing tens of thousands of counts for every minute he held this little girl in this backyard that was not his. For every time that he raped her, for every time that he may have touched one of those other little girls. This is one of the most shocking cases I have ever seen. And nobody should let him think that this was just a mistake and all will be forgiven if he just apologizes. That is outrageous.

MORET: And Dale Archer, the clinical psychologist -- I`m sorry, who is that talking? I can`t see.


MORET: OK. I want to go to you. Dr. Archer, the fallout psychologically must be unbearable for these families.

ARCHER: Yes. I think, though, that the important point here is that you can`t automatically assume that these folks are going to be psychologically damaged for life. Because this is a tremendous stress, no doubt. But what you have to do here is you do an evaluation of them and you do an ongoing assessment.

But I think it`s very, very important for the doctor not to think, oh, wow, I`ve never seen anything like this. This is the worst stress imaginable. Therefore, how in the world can they be normal?

But the fact is that people can be normal after this. They can overcome it. So you do the assessment. If the symptoms are there, you treat them. But the most important thing as a doctor here is you have to hold out hope. You have to let them know you`ve treated severe cases before and that these folks have recovered and gotten well and that the same thing can happen in this case.

MORET: Scott Kernan, California Department of Corrections, I want you in before the break. We`ve got about 30 seconds left. Once you have these people in custody, you`ve got to keep them separate, don`t you, from the general population?

SCOTT KERNAN, CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS: Yes, often the sex offenders are held separately for their own safety.

MORET: And that`s because there`s a code even among -- even among felons, I suppose, right?

KERNAN: There is. An unofficial code among felons that sex offenders are the worst of the bunch.

MORET: We`re going to have, obviously, more on this shocking story coming up right after the break. We`re also taking your calls: 1-877-JVM- SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297.

Michael Jackson, his death ruled a homicide. The latest from the L.A. County Coroner`s office. And what the breaking news means for the investigation.

Then, Jaycee Dugard was just 11 years old when she vanished 18 years ago. Can you imagine the shock and the joy that her parents are going through?


CARL PROBYN, STEPFATHER OF JAYCEE: I did lose hope, but I`m coping as it`s over. And the last 18 years have been pretty rough, but these last two days have been pretty good.



PROBYN: 911?


PROBYN: On Pineyard Boulevard, my daughter was just kidnapped. On top of the hill, it was a gray Ford. A man and a woman in the car.


MORET: That was Carl Probyn`s 911 call back in 1991 after witnessing his stepdaughter Jaycee`s abduction. Probyn himself was under suspicion for years. He says that Jaycee`s kidnapping let to the breakup of his marriage.

I want to welcome back my expert panel and first go to Dr. Dale Archer. You talk about the fallout that the family suffered. When you lose a child, in this case a stepchild, Carl Probyn says it caused just havoc with all of their lives. How does this family reconnect at this point?

ARCHER: The first thing, understand that the loss of the child is the most stressful thing that any human being can experience. That`s No. 1. No. 2, is that when they are going through the actual event, again, hope is absolutely the key. And we only have to look at Elizabeth Smart to know that there can be a happy ending in these cases.

Now that the family is back together, it`s very simple. They have to do the simple things as a family again and just spend time with each other. That`s when the healing starts.

So they are reconnecting. They are getting to know each other again as a family. Doesn`t have to be anything big or major. Just sitting around, talking, watching TV, and being together. That`s how they`re dealing...

MORET: But Dr. Archer, isn`t it complicated, though? Because you`ve got two now grandchildren that have basically been living their entire life in a back yard. They may not be socialized. God knows what they`ve gone through. So it clearly complicates things, doesn`t it?

ARCHER: Yes. It`s absolutely incredibly complex. And 18 years is just such a long period to be under this type of stress. I`m sure that the family had given up hope of ever finding her alive.

So no doubt that it`s complex and it`s stressful, but you know what? You`ve got to start with a single step. And that step is we are a family. We are going to get through this. We are together. And, of course, there will be professional involvement to help them along, but it doesn`t have to be complicated. It`s very straightforward and simple. Do the simple things as a family together again.

BLOOM: And Jim, you know, look at the charges in this case. The wife is also charged with rape. So that either means that she was an accomplice to rape or that she, herself, is charged with some kind of sexual misconduct.

I mean, it shocks the mind to consider what all three of these girls went through. They never went to school. They never went to a doctor. They lived their entire lives in a shed locked from the outside in the backyard.

And there`s a woman involved in this, as well. You`re looking at her picture right now. I mean, I think a lot more is going to be revealed. I think all three of these girls have a very long way to go before they`re close to recovery.

MORET: Robin Sax, let`s not overlook the fact that these two grandchildren are 11 and 15. They`re the same age group that Jaycee was when she was molested and raped by this very predator. We don`t even know, yet, if he`s charged with raping them.

SAX: That`s absolutely correct. And it wouldn`t surprise me one bit if they had been victimized by him, given the fact that they were the same age that Jaycee was when she was abducted, given the fact that they, too, were living in solitude, and deprived of the medical and educational resources, just as Lisa said. And clearly...

MORET: Robin you had a point, though, about the statement that this suspect made. You called him a narcissist specifically because of the way he said the statement. What did you mean?

SAX: That`s true. When you look at the statement, you look at it in written form, which is really very powerful way to look at it. Hearing it is one thing. But seeing the actual words together.

There`s one word that you see come up over and over again. And that`s the word "I." "I" this, "I" that, "I" this. He is not concerned about anyone other than himself. He has no concern about Jaycee. He has no concern certainly about the sheriff`s department prosecuting him. He is concerned about getting his hide out of trouble.

MORET: We have a caller in Iowa. Hold on, we have a caller in Iowa.

Rea (ph), you`re on the line. You have a question for our panel?

CALLER: Yes, I have a question. Do they have any idea if the woman that`s involved, the man`s supposedly wife, if she could be a victim of his from before the daughter was taken?

MORET: Well, listen, Steve Kardian, former criminal investigator, you want to take that one?

KARDIAN: Yes, Jim, they`re -- they`re going to look at her, and they`re going to see what she did know. Was and how much was she controlled by this individual and if, in fact, she did participate in the crimes.

We already know based upon the witness` statement from the father, that she was present during the initial abduction.

MORET: Police...

BLOOM: She`s an adult woman. She`s an adult woman. She`s responsible for her own actions. Doesn`t matter if she was also a victim, if she was...

MORET: But Lisa -- Lisa, wouldn`t you suspect that, from a defense standpoint, she`s going to look at this case, or her lawyer will, from a very different perspective than his lawyer? And you can just see it coming right now: "I was victimized. I was made to do this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."

BLOOM: Yes, I can see that. But she`s an adult woman responsible for her own actions under American law. Unless she`s so mentally ill that she can`t conform her conduct to the law.

I mean, they`re both sophisticated enough to snatch this little girl while they`re both in the car and then to raise her day after day and to imprison her in the back yard shed. You know, that takes a lot of planning. That takes a lot of consciousness of guilt.

I don`t think either one of them has a good mental illness defense, given all of the calculating intellectual activity that had to go on to keep these three little girls, these poor little girls, prisoners in their own backyard.

MORET: Ed -- wait, Ed Lavandera is on the scene for us right now. Before he runs off, I want to ask him a quick question.

Ed, do you know what is planned for this family over the weekend? This is going to be their first weekend together in 18 years. Are they being given space? Are they kept in an undisclosed location? What`s happening up there?

LAVANDERA: Well, you know, that`s the million-dollar question at this point. The latest we`d heard is that Jaycee and her two children were at an undisclosed motel. Whether or not they`ve made any kind of significant contact with family members or what their plans will be this weekend, we haven`t heard yet.

MORET: Thanks. That`s Ed Lavandera on the scene to us.

Police admit that they missed a chance to rescue Jaycee and her daughters three years ago. Someone called 911 to report Garrido, but the tip went nowhere. Listen to this.


SHERIFF WARREN E. RUPF, CONTRA COSTA COUNTY: We missed an opportunity to bring earlier closure to this situation. A caller to our 911 dispatch offered that there were tents in the neighbor`s backyard, that people were living in them, and that there were young children. The caller also said that Garrido was psychotic and had a sexual addiction.


MORET: Wow. That gives you chills.

Robin Sax, we have 30 seconds before break. How did he get away with this for 18 years?

SAX: Well, to get away with, it definitely takes a lot of calculation. But this missed opportunity, and I appreciate Sheriff Rupf coming out there and being honest about it. Missed opportunities are no excuse. We have to hold our law enforcement officials, our prosecutors and our cops to a high standard. There were three kids, for all intents and purposes, who were held in -- as hostages.

MORET: More with my expert panel in just a moment.

It`s finally official: Michael Jackson`s death has been ruled a homicide. Was it an accident or just plain murder?

Then, a family reunited. What will tomorrow bring for Jaycee Dugard and her accused abductors? Stay with us on ISSUES.



UNDERSHERIFF FRED KOLLAR, EL DORADO COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPARTMENT: The search of the residence revealed a hidden backyard within a backyard. The hidden backyard had sheds, tents and outbuildings where Jaycee and the girls spent most of their lives. There was a vehicle hidden in the backyard that matched the vehicle originally described at the time of the abduction. The tents and outbuildings in the backyard were placed in a strategic arrangement to inhibit outside viewing and to isolate the victims from outside contact.


MORET: Welcome back. I`m Jim Moret from "Inside Edition," sitting in tonight for Jane.

That was undersheriff of El Dorado County, explaining the unthinkable conditions that Jaycee Dugard and her two girls endured for years.

Now back to my guests. Let`s go right out to Scott Kernan, California Department of Corrections.

I understand that it was a parole officer who actually did an interview that -- where this entire horrible ordeal was revealed. Is that correct?

KERNAN: It was. And I really have to take exception to the panelists` comments about the holding law enforcement. I think that the jurisdictions, the Berkeley Campus Police, my parole officer and the Concord P.D. cracked an 18-year mystery through diligent police work. And I think all of the law enforcement officers in this matter handled themselves appropriately.

MORET: Well, why do you think it took so long for this to come to light, then?

KERNAN: Again, 18 years. I think you earlier reported neighbors in the backyard not seeing this. The only one to blame for this horrendous act is the parolee, himself.

MORET: Well, let`s look at this. We`re looking at a hidden backyard within a backyard. That`s how the undersheriff just described the compound that the Garridos allegedly kept Jaycee and her two daughters trapped in.

Take a look at this. To the casual observer, it seemed like a typical, perhaps messy house. The backyard full of trash that ended at a six-foot wooden fence. Now, she and her girls were hidden behind in a tangle of bushes and trees, forced to live under a blue tarp, two tents and a few small sheds that were locked from the outside. One, we`re told, was even soundproof.

They only had access to a crudely-made bathroom with a shower, and they received electricity through an extension cord.

Dugard was missing for 18 years and was just 160 miles away from her South Lake Tahoe home.

CNN legal analyst Lisa Bloom, can you even understand how -- these primitive conditions contributed to all of these counts against the Garridos. Explain this nightmare for our audience, because it`s just so hard to wrap my head around.

BLOOM: Yes. There seems to be no downward limit to human evil. When you look at this case and you imagine the decision making that had to go on minute after minute, hour after hour, day after day for 18 years to imprison three young girls like this, living outdoors with no access to medical care or education. One of them raped at least twice, probably all of them raped many, many times.

Now, there has been at least one report that law enforcement was called about a child abuse or some suspected behavior about children, incident that they came to the door, spoke to him, did not search the house and then left. If that`s true, law enforcement`s got a big problem, because we`re talking about a convicted sex predator with somebody calling in a complaint, and they didn`t go into the house. That`s going to look terrible if that`s true.

If it`s not true, and there was no probable cause and now basis to search the house, then fine.

But also, you`ve got to wonder about the parole officer and what we, as citizens, are doing to empower parole officers to have the time to make home visits. Are we so underfunding them that they simply can`t do that?

KERNAN: It`s...

MORET: I`m sorry. You know, I know that there`s so much more to talk about, and we`ve just begun. Thanks to my expert panel.

Coming up, the woman who allegedly helped reality TV star Ryan Jenkins avoid authorities after his ex-wife`s body was discovered is questioned by police. We`ll tell you why, coming up next.


MORET: Breaking developments in the swimsuit model`s death. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police say they know who helped reality TV star Ryan Jenkins in the days following his ex-wife`s brutal murder. What did they learn when they questioned her?

Plus, Michael Jackson, the "King of Pop," murdered? The L.A. County coroner`s office officially announced the cause of death. We`ll tell you what was said and how it will affect the investigation. Why did some rotting marijuana found in Jackson`s bedroom send his family into an absolute tizzy? Wait until you hear what they must (INAUDIBLE) illegal weed for and why it sent cops on the hunt for balloons and razors.

Welcome to the second half of ISSUES. I`m Jim Moret from "Inside Edition" filling in tonight for Jane.

Tonight, dramatic new details emerge about the brutal murder of Jasmine Fiore. She met a gruesome end allegedly at the hands of her ex- husband, reality TV star Ryan Jenkins.

Canadian authorities will not press charges against Ryan Jenkins` alleged accomplice, the mystery blond who checked him into a motel outside Vancouver one week ago where he killed himself. The woman won`t face charges because she checked him into that motel the day before Canadian arrest warrant was issued. Is this justice or just a technicality?

Rumors continue to swirl about that blonde`s identity. Reports say it could be Jenkins` half sister Alaina (ph) seen here on a picture posted on the "Vancouver Sun`s" Web site. But did Jenkins` father help as well?

That mystery blond was seen at the motel with Jenkins driving a silver PT Cruiser with Alberta plates. Well, guess who owns a silver PT Cruiser with Alberta plates? Jenkins` dad.

He defended his son on "Good Morning America."


DON JENKINS, RYAN JENKINS` FATHER: I`m not at all convinced that he did this crime yet. Ryan was a fine young man. He was smart, he was kind, he was sweet, he was innocent. He went to Hollywood and something down there the last four months, including this girl, just destroyed him.


MORET: Sounds like he`s blaming Jasmine Fiore. Pretty sick considering California cops made some grisly discoveries in Fiore`s Mercedes found abandoned in West Hollywood on Wednesday.


SGT. FRANK NUNES, DETECTIVE, BUENA PARK POLICE DEPARTMENT: One thing is for certain. She was killed either in that car or in that hotel room somewhere in between. And Mr. Jenkins took her body and dumped it here in Buena Park.


MORET: They also reveal that car was found just a mile away from Jenkins` and Fiore`s home and Jasmine`s blood was found at the hotel where she and Jenkins stayed the night before her murder.

Straight now to my panel: Steve Kardian, criminal investigator and director of Defend University; Dr. Dale Archer clinical psychiatrist; Mark Eiglarsh, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor; Carlos Diaz, correspondent for "Extra."

TMZ is reporting that Ryan Jenkins made 30 phone calls in the hours after cops believe Jasmine was murdered. Carlos, what`s the latest? What do you know?

CARLOS DIAZ, CORRESPONDENT, "EXTRA": That`s the thing, too. They`re saying also that he went in through the patio of the hotel and possibly that`s where she was brought in because there was blood found on the patio.

We don`t know where those 30 phone calls were made to that TMZ is reporting. But I think it`s striking that the cops in Canada are saying now they`re not going to press charges against possibly his half sister because they went to the hotel. She took him to the hotel allegedly after -- excuse me -- before the warrant was issued.

So you have to ask yourself and any family member has to ask themselves in this situation, would you say no to your son or half brother, in this case, if he`s asking for help? I don`t think too many families would say, "No we`re not going to help you."

MORET: Mark Eiglarsh, criminal defense attorney, you`re a former prosecutor. I was up in Vancouver on Monday. And the Mounties were saying, if anything, she`s going to be an accessory after the fact to crossing the border not to the murder. It sounds like they`re just so nice in Canada, you know.


Listen, I`m putting my prosecutor hat on because that`s how I feel. She should be prosecuted. There are very valuable resources devoted to trying to capture people who are on the run.

It`s a significant offense when someone is aiding and abetting them and assisting them from fleeing at a minimum. You don`t have those resources available to other victims, for other searches. But for her assistance he, perhaps, would have been caught a bit sooner.

I think you have to send a message, you help people who have committed offenses and you get punished.

MORET: Let`s hear more from Ryan Jenkins` father. He spoke about Jasmine Fiore on "Good Morning America."

Listen to this.


JENKINS: She would take off for days at a time and Ryan was lonely and distraught and alone down there and she was his only friend. And then she`d just disappear. I advised him 50 times to get out of that relationship.


MORET: Dr. Dale, it sounds an awful lot like he`s blaming the victim and he can`t believe his wonderful son would have done all of this while all the evidence, of course, suggests Ryan Jenkins killed her in a jealous rage. And then, did he have his own family fooled do you think? Or are they in denial? What do you think is going on here?

DR. DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: Well, I think, that we also go back to his first fiancee who said that they had a 2 1/2 relationship and there was not one physical bit of violence in the relationship.

So what is misunderstood here is that sometimes a perpetrator like this, a domestic violence perpetrator only does it once. It`s thought, oh, they`re going to do it over and over with every single woman that they`re with, they abuse. Well, if that were the case, it would be very easy to track these people down.

Typically what happens is it`s jealousy. We talk about a continuum of abuse here. It starts off where they start to feel they are losing control and that the woman no longer wants them. Then they start with the verbal abuse then it goes to emotional abuse, then it goes to physical abuse.

What happens is, they start to think, you know what, I`m losing her. If I`m going to lose her, then no one else is going to have her. That`s when it turns to murder. So I think that it might not have been that the family was fooled. It could have been that he was just on this road of abuse, continuum of abuse and it ended up leading to murder.

MORET: Steve Kardian, former criminal investigator, director of Defend University. What do you do from an investigation standpoint? It sounds like if cops believe the case is closed in the sense that the victim and the perpetrator are both dead but people still want to know what happened. What do you do as an investigator here?

STEVE KARDIAN, DIRECTOR, DEFEND UNIVERSITY: Jim, they have to put all the pieces together. They have to do an investigation as if the perpetrator was still at large, to answer all the questions, make sure that nothing was missed and to ensure they have brought properly the correct person to justice post-death, if you will.

The investigation is going to continue. They`re going to check and make sure that all the information that they have that indicates that he was a murder is correct and on line.

MORET: Carlos, the interesting thing, of course, about this case is that so much prior to the crime played out on reality television. This guy fancied himself as a celebrity in the making and so clearly he liked the spotlight.

DIAZ: He did like the spotlight. I lived in Vegas for several years. I can tell you right now that there`s a reason there`s a chapel on every corner in Vegas. You do things out of spontaneity. He met Jasmine and married her less than a week later. It`s one of those things where it was a relationship that was built on actions that were very quick, based out of passion and they got married.

He went down to Mexico. He shot another VH1 show down there. It`s one of those things where it was a relationship where there were a lot of things going on very quickly and you have to wonder, you know, did they get married out of quick passion and maybe did he kill her out of quick passion as well?

EIGLARSH: One of the things I wanted to say, there`s many reasons why I`m glad he`s no longer with us. But one of them is because he was such a reality TV star he would have relished -- a little bit like Casey Anthony - - the spotlight when he`s sitting at that defendant`s table going through whatever trial he would have gone through, whatever defense he would have thrown out there. You know what? A part of me is very pleased that for that reason alone I done have to watch him smirking at the defense table.

MORET: Dr. Dale -- Dr. Dale, pick up on that, we have 30 seconds left. Weren`t you surprised, then, if he was a narcissist? Liked seeing himself on TV, that he would have killed himself?

ARCHER: Typically narcissists do not kill themselves. I think that what happened here though is that this just exploded upon him. And the stress levels are through the roof. He was on the run, he was hiding. He had no sleep.

Eventually this can trigger an actual psychosis in an individual being under stress without sleep for a long period of time. And I think he just reached his breaking point. So I think that what caused the suicide was not the narcissism but it was the stress. And I think he probably got psychotic at the end.

MORET: And that`s the final word on this subject. Thanks to my excellent panel for joining me. Coming up, Redmond O`Neal, the son of Farrah Fawcett and Ryan O`Neal made headlines for his battle with addiction. Will he turn his struggles into a reality TV show spectacle?

And breaking news tonight: Michael Jackson`s death has officially been ruled a homicide by the L.A. County coroner. We`ll tell you more about the cause of death after the break.

We want to hear from you as well. Give us a call, 1-877-JVM-SAYS.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: Hi, I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell. People across America are grappling with addiction. I`m one of them. In my new book, "I Want," I reveal details of my own personal battle with alcoholism and how I finally got sober more than 14 years ago.

It`s a recovery memoir due out this fall. You can pre-order your copy right now. Just click on and look for the pre-order section.

If you know someone with a substance abuse problem or an eating disorder this book will help you cope.



MORET: Welcome back to ISSUES. I`m Jim Moret from "Inside Edition" sitting in for Jane.

There`s breaking news in the Michael Jackson case tonight. The Los Angeles County coroner has officially ruled the King of Pop`s death was a homicide. More on that in a minute.

But first, "Top of the Block" tonight: reports are out saying Redmond O`Neal, the son of Ryan O`Neal and the late Farrah Fawcett is slated to star in his own documentary show documenting his struggle with addiction. Those reports are now being called false.

Last week allegations surfaced that the 24-year-old would begin filming in four months when he was released from a California detention center where he`s currently going through drug rehab. Taking it a step further, there were allegations that his father brokered a deal for him and would appear on the show regularly.

O`Neal`s family is reportedly outraged about those rumors. Earlier today, Redmond`s attorney spoke with one of our ISSUES producers and confirmed that Redmond O`Neal is not doing a reality TV show.

And that is tonight`s "Top of the Block."

Startling new revelations in the death of pop icon Michael Jackson: it is official. The coroner says, "It`s homicide." Cause of death, acute Propofol intoxication. This does not come as a surprise. Jackson`s former nurse says Jackson begged to be injected with Propofol.


CHERILYN LEE, FORMER NURSE OF MICHAEL JACKSON: He actually sat there and he said, "I`m telling, when I have that IV in my hand -- when I have it in my hand" he just kind of went on as well, "When it drips in my body, the first drop, I`m asleep. All I want to do is sleep."


MORET: Propofol, a powerful narcotic sometimes referred to as Diprivan is injected in hospitals used to knock out patients before surgery. Detectives say Jackson`s body was riddled with needle marks. The coroner also says the other drugs found in Jackson`s system created a lethal cocktail.

Also, inside the search of Michael Jackson`s Bel-air mansion, new documents show cops went in looking for heroin, needles, balloons and razor blades all because a Jackson family said they saw heroin in Jackson`s bedroom.

And Jackson`s burial is slated for next week. We have details on the latest family drama.

So much to cover tonight. Straight out to our expert panel: Mike Eiglarsh, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor; former detective Steve Kardian; Carlos Diaz, correspondent for "Extra;" and joining us by phone, medical examiner William Murrone (ph).

First to the medical examiner; thanks for joining us. Explain what this lethal cocktail is and intoxication versus overdose, if you could explain that.

WILLIAM MURRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Here`s where the principle is that everything in the cocktail leads to respiratory arrest. Propofol at higher doses will stop breathing. That`s why in the hospital you`re incubated, you`re on a ventilator and you`re monitored.

If you`re given a lower dose like Dr. Murray gave, you`re supposed to be safer. But if the dose you`re given is with another drug that causes respiratory arrest, you`ve just lost everything that you tried to save by giving a lower dose.

And benzodiazepines, this family of drugs that were there and the number one drug is listed as Lorazepam, has, as its side effect, respiratory arrest or respiratory depression. So you get Propofol, Lorazepam working together for respiratory arrest.

MORET: And Doctor, we`re showing our viewers a list of the medications that are being used. When the coroner says acute Propofol intoxication, is that short hand for overdose?

MURRONE: It is because the intoxication is like you would expect with alcohol that you don`t go down and you`re not out for the count. That you slowly stop breathing over time and the body has sensors so say, "I don`t have enough oxygen. I need to wake up." But you`ve just depressed those sensors with Propofol and benzodiazepines, the Lorazepam. And that intoxication prevents you from waking up.

In his story he said he tried a drug called flumazanil (ph), an antidote to reverse the Lorazepam. It didn`t work. That shows you he was down, he was out in addition to the time it took EMS to get there. That combination was deadly.

MORET: Steve Kardian, former criminal investigator. We heard the doctor. There are so many drugs involved here with names that most of us just don`t recognize.

From a prosecutorial standpoint, what do you look for in making this easier to understand for a jury? It sure sounds like that`s where it`s going to go.

KARDIAN: Simply, Jim, we know that Propofol is not ready available nor is it used outside the hospital setting. And prosecutors are going to look to see that this death was caused through criminal negligence, through recklessness and that it could have been averted had the doctor taken the proper course and not used that medication.

MORET: Mark Eiglarsh, as a defense attorney, you know that Dr. Conrad Murray is one person, perhaps the person being looked at, at this point. How do you defend him?

EIGLARSH: What I do, first of all, assemble the best team of experts to contradict the state`s experts. It`s going to come down to that. You`re going to have lay people listening to all this medical testimony. You have to hope that they understand what`s being said. Because at the end of the day, none of them know what Propofol is and when it`s supposed to be used, in a hospital, at home.

We just heard that he gave low doses. That would have been ok but for some other drug might have been in there; maybe Michael took that on his own. Their heads are going to be spinning.

Add to this he seems to be a likable guy. According to the author Gerald Posner (ph), who interviewed him recently, he comes across very personable, likable. If jurors find him to be personable and likable and Michael Jackson might have contributed to his own death, then maybe they can find this to be a tragic accident in spite of what seems to be overwhelming evidence that he did so many things incorrectly.

MORET: But how are police looking at this? We`re getting more insight now into the investigation behind Jackson`s homicide.

Have cops been looking at this like a murder since they searched Jackson`s mansion? New details show cops wrote PC187 on search warrants -- that`s code for murder.

Records also show police were looking for heroin in Jackson`s private bedroom. Cops found a baggy but it actually contained moldy marijuana. They also and found a trove of other bags: two bags of pot, 12 bottles of sedatives, tons of empty vials and valium.

Carlos Diaz, this has transcended from an entertainment story to a criminal story back to an entertainment story. None of these allegations though about drugs are anything new. Those of us who have been covering Jackson as you have for years have been hearing about these claims.

DIAZ: Yes and that`s an -- if you`re a defense attorney that`s what you`re going to go after. If you`re defending Conrad Murray you`re going to say found on marijuana. They found all these different kinds of drugs in his place and then you`re going to try to say hey, all these other doctors were enablers, as well.

But the big thing that`s really negative against Dr. Murray that wasn`t in the Anna Nicole Smith case and Jim you know this. For the Anna Nicole Smith case, when it came down for cause of death it was very -- it wasn`t specific. It wasn`t as specific as this.

MORET: Hold your thought. We have to take a hard break. We`ll be back with more with Carlos.

Stay right where you are. We`re going to have more on the Jackson homicide investigation right after this.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you still believe in a conspiracy?

LATOYA JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S SISTER: It was murder. I think someone did it. That`s my opinion.



MORET: That was Michael`s sister, LaToya Jackson.

The coroner has ruled his Michael Jackson death a homicide. He also ruled Propofol was the main drug that killed Michael Jackson.

Carlos Diaz from "Extra," I cut you off before the break, and you were comparing this case to Anna Nicole. I want to let you continue.

DIAZ: Well, when the coroner`s report came out for the Anna Nicole Smith case, it wasn`t like anti-climactic. We were like -- it wasn`t like there was a clear-cut definition of this drug killed Anna Nicole Smith so it was very anti-climactic.

With this, you have Propofol is listed right there in the cause of death and it`s also listed as a homicide. So you combine the fact that the definition of a homicide is the death at the hands of another individual and then you put in Propofol, and then you put in that Dr. Conrad Murray gave Jackson Propofol and has admitted to it as a very tough case against Dr. Conrad Murray.

MORET: Steve Kardian, former criminal investigator, we`re talking homicide. Are we talking murder?

KARDIAN: Well, you`re talking the reckless death of another. When the law enforcement and EMS arrived on the scene they looked at the condition of the body, they saw that he was emaciated and that he had needles in his arm and he was still hooked up to the IV. And he had a doctor in attendance at the time of death and the doctor refused to sign the death certificate. Those are all red flags right there, Jim.

MORET: When you`re talking about drugs and clearly you`re talking about a lot of drugs, there is a new wrinkle in this. That is one of the pharmacies where Michael Jackson owed $100,000 and was frequented by Dr. Klein, his dermatologist, there is an allegation that Klein wrote a number of prescriptions to himself and may have been passing them on to Michael Jackson.

Do you think he could be brought into the case, as well, Steve?

KARDIAN: I think that you`re going to see a number of other doctors also implicated in this homicide and/or there`s a massive DEA investigation with regard to the controlled substances that were issued. And, you know, it`s going to be quite interesting to see how many doctors were involved in this scam.

MORET: And, Carlos, the funeral, we`ve already had a memorial. He`s really been buried but there is yet another funeral next week. You`re expecting it`s going to be a huge event again?

DIAZ: I`ve been over to the memorial park in Glendale, California where he`s going to be buried and there`s very high security on the side of a hill so it`s not like people can see into it. You`re going to have a lot of helicopters there. They said they`re going to make space for the press but it`s supposed to be just for family and friends.

It`s supposed to happen Thursday. It was supposed to happen tomorrow but then they pushed it to Thursday. Who knows if they`re going to push it further? But they`re saying right now it`s going to happen on Thursday right now.

One very quick other point to point out, if I`m Dr. Conrad`s attorney, Ed Chertoff, you better believe he`s going to be the one to say, "Hey, let`s get some other doctors involved and he`s going to hope that other doctors` names are involved in this because that pushes the blame away from his client and maybe onto other doctors."

MORET: Steve Kardian -- ten seconds -- do you think criminal charges will be coming out of this case?

KARDIAN: Absolutely, absolutely. Manslaughter at the very least, Jim.

MORET: I want to thank my panel for all their comments and insights.

If you had 24 hours to live would you finally forgive the one who hurt you the most? Could you recognize what you`re truly grateful for? These are just some of the answers I look for in my new book called "The Last Day of My Life." It`s coming out November 1st. It`s available now for pre- order on

This has been quite a week obviously and thank you so much for joining us here on ISSUES. Thank you to Jane for letting me fill in.

There`s clearly a lot more to discuss on all of these stories and we`ll be bringing you the latest each and every day on right here HLN and ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL.

I`m Jim Moret from "Inside Edition" sitting in for Jane, wishing you a good night and a good weekend. Thanks for watching.