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Two Firefighters Killed in Los Angeles Wildfires; Swine Flu Fact and Fiction

Aired August 31, 2009 - 20:00   ET



CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, here are the questions we want answered.

How could authorities have missed chances to save Jaycee Dugard? despite neighbors being suspicious, she was held captive right under their noses for 18 years.

WARREN E. RUPF, CONTRA COSTA COUNTY, CALIFORNIA, SHERIFF: We missed an opportunity. We should have been more inquisitive, more curious, turned over a rock or two.

BROWN: How does she ever recover, and what happens to the two children she gave birth to as a child herself?

Also, our cameras are there when a young man missing for 11 years is reunited with his family -- the amazing story.

And how did three fishermen...


BROWN: We apologize for that technicality there. We have got our big questions tonight. We are going to start as we always do with the "Mash-Up." It is of course our look at the stories making an impact right now, the moments you may have missed today. We are keeping an eye on all of it so you don't have to.

And we begin tonight with the breaking news that we have. At this hour, police are back at that house in Antioch, California, where Jaycee Dugard spent 18 years, most of them locked away in the backyard. Police are looking for clues that could tie her alleged kidnapper to several murder cases.

And, just a few minutes ago, police announced that they found something. Listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One bone fragment was found. It was found on the neighbor's property at 1540. It was a small bone fragment. We're taking that bone back for further examination. We don't know if it's human or animal.

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: This is the place where Phillip Garrido, convicted sex offender, is accused of using this little girl that he abducted as his sex slave. She was only 11. She's a grown woman now.

Look at the tents. Look at the shacks. Look at furniture, the mattresses that are strewn around.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two sheds, one soundproof, all of them able to lock from the outside, where Jaycee and her children, Angel and Starlet, were forced to live.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now officials want to see if this man, Phillip Garrido, can be linked to several, several unsolved murders, both locally and in the San Francisco area, where he used to work.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the house next door to Phil Garrido's. I can hear the chain saws and other heavy equipment digging up that property over there, looking for evidence that could make this confessed child kidnapper something even worse.

BROWN: Now, over the weekend, police expanded their search to the neighbors' backyard, a lot of ground to cover.

Jaycee Dugard and her two daughters now with her mother. Police say over the years, none of them visited doctors or went to school, but that they did have some contact with the outside world.

Phillip Garrido and his wife, Nancy, they pleaded not guilty to charges, including kidnap, rape, imprisonment. We have a lot more to share with you, new details on this story coming up. We will have that coming up right after the break.

We go to some other breaking news now right near Los Angeles. Five people are trapped in the huge wildfire that doubled in size overnight. Apparently, they refused to leave when authorities told everybody to evacuate. Now it's too dangerous to rescue them.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It sounds at times like a waterfall of fire.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something you can't even describe, being stuck in a house with the flames and laying on the floor and the firemen looking at you, just telling you to stay down, don't move, and embers being forced through the cracks in the windows and the cracks in the door.

BRIAN WILLIAMS, HOST, "NBC NIGHTLY NEWS": The smoke is just piling up over Los Angeles.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Two thousand five hundred and seventy-five firefighters who are giving this wild fire everything they have got are out there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The easiest approach is often from the sky, helicopters and planes attacking what seems to be an endless wall of fire. SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN ANCHOR: Two firefighters died yesterday when their truck ran off a mountain road.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And, please, prayers for that family of our two brothers that we lost.


BROWN: They don't know what started this fire, but very dry conditions are making it very tough to stop. Also, take a look at what is bearing down on the coast of Mexico.

This is Hurricane Jimena. It is a Category 4 storm pushing into Category 5 territory. Tourists in places like Cabo San Lucas are being urged to leave. That storm should hit late tomorrow. We will be updating you on that with any changes and developments as well.

We turn now to Massachusetts, where lawmakers want quickly to replace Senator Ted Kennedy. Massachusetts' governor -- the governor of Massachusetts today announced the date for a special election in January, but also said he wants to fill the seat even sooner, and wants to change the law to do it.

GOV. DEVAL PATRICK (D), MASSACHUSETTS: I am designating Tuesday, January 19, 2010, as the date of the special election. I wholly support the special election and the democratic process to fill the remaining two years of Senator Kennedy's term.

But I will continue to work with the legislature on legislation authorizing an interim appointment to the United States Senate for the five months, until that special election happens.

I really think it's too soon to talk about any particular individual. I have not spoken with Mrs. Kennedy or the family about an individual for the position. Mrs. Kennedy is not interested in the position. I will not seek the position, no. Thank you very much.

My job, right now, is to think about the best interests of the commonwealth. And I think that having a full complement, two voices in the United States Senate, is about the best interest of the commonwealth.


BROWN: Two Massachusetts political sources tell CNN a committee in the state legislature will take up the bill to change the law next week.

Vice President Cheney the center of the Sunday talk shows once again. He talked the Cheney talk: Harsh interrogations prevented terror attacks. And he says the Obama administration is wrong.


RICHARD B. CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I just think it's an outrageous precedent to set, to have this kind of -- of, well, I think intensely partisan, politicized look back at the prior administration.

It's clearly a political move. There's no other rationale for why they're this. The enhanced interrogation techniques were absolutely essential in saving thousands of American lives, in preventing further attacks against the United States. I think they were directly responsible for the fact that for eight years, we had no further mass casualty attacks against the United States.


BROWN: The White House says the former vice president is wrong. So who is right? I guess it depends on who you ask.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a pretty compelling argument that Cheney makes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He says these things that seem to be easily disproven.

DANA PERINO, FORMER GEORGE W. BUSH WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: He has the facts on his side, and so I think that that was one of the reasons that the interview was so effective yesterday.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not sure facts or truth really matter to Vice President Cheney, to be brutal about it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, of course it makes us less safe. It's aid and comfort to the enemy.

ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I'm not entirely sure that Dick Cheney's predictions on foreign policy have borne a whole lot of fruit over the last eight years.


BROWN: Another former Bush administration official had to clarify some comments as well, or attempted to clarify some comments.

Former Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge was on "Good Morning America" to try to clear up confusion he says about that passage from his book that made it seem like -- it sure sounded like -- politics had played a role in decisions over whether or not to raise the country's terror alert before the 2004 election.


TOM RIDGE, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY CHIEF: A lot of people are hyperventilating about that passage. This was one of several times that the process worked.

People expressed their opinions. General Ashcroft, Attorney General Ashcroft, Secretary Rumsfeld expressed their opinions. In the context of that day, in the context of what happened in Madrid, in context of what had happened earlier that year, at the end of the day, I have had to be absolutely certain that we're on the right path. The process worked. We didn't go up. And it was designed so that nobody could pressure anybody to do anything. A consensus was reached. We didn't go up.


BROWN: Of course, Ridge didn't take back the statement in his book. One blogger put it this way, saying -- quote -- "This could either be a case of an overzealous publisher promoting a book or a contrite editor backpedaling from the written word once he has seen the reaction to it."

Singer Chris Brown speaking out for the first time since his sentencing for beating his ex-girlfriend Rihanna. Rihanna was left bruised and bloody. Brown telling CNN's Larry King he doesn't even remember doing it.


LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": When you hear about all the things that the police and the reports say you did, how do you react to that?

CHRIS BROWN, MUSICIAN: I will just look at it and go like, wow. Like, I'm in shock, because, first of all, that's not who I am as a person, and that's not who I pride myself on being.

So, I just -- when I look at like the police reports, or I hear about the police reports, I don't know what to think. I just don't know what to think. It's just like, wow.

KING: Do you remember doing it?


KING: Don't remember doing it?

BROWN: I don't -- it's like, it's crazy to me. I'm like, wow.


BROWN: Chris Brown's mother also speaks to Larry. She says her son is not a violent person, that interview airing Wednesday, 9:00 p.m., on "LARRY KING LIVE."

And we are going back to California for tonight's "Punchline." This is courtesy of Conan O'Brien. He's taking aim at the governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger, and his great California garage sale.


CONAN O'BRIEN, HOST, "LATE NIGHT WITH CONAN O'BRIEN": I can't believe this. The government of California is holding a garage sale to raise money for the state, a garage sale.

(LAUGHTER) O'BRIEN: Now, folks, even if you don't really need anything, this may be your only chance to haggle with Governor Schwarzenegger over a $2 spatula.


O'BRIEN: I think it would be worth it.

"You got to take it right now. It's very good."


O'BRIEN: "It's good for flipping sausages."


O'BRIEN: "A dollar seventy-nine. I will throw in the garden hose. Just take it. Take it now."



BROWN: Conan O'Brien, everybody. That is the "Mash-Up" tonight.

When we come back, back to that breaking news. Minutes ago, police held a news conference in the Jaycee Dugard kidnapping case. They say that they found a bone fragment. There are new details. We're going to share with you coming up next.

Also, a reality check tonight on swine flu, the H1N1 flu virus. When will there be a vaccine? Is the vaccine safe? We have a lot more detail on that.

Plus, a man whose boat capsized in the Gulf of Mexico, he and his friend survived more than a week before being rescued. Tonight, he tells me how they did it.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not going to be our final resting place, no matter what we have to do, not matter how long we have to withstand it. Even though it broke us down, and, you know, took our spirits and everything else, we still had to get out of there some kind of way.



BROWN: Breaking news in the search now under way at the home where kidnap victim Jaycee Dugard was kept prisoner for 18 years. Investigators have been trying to determine if the alleged kidnapper is also a killer.

And within the past hour, the sheriff's department announced that they found a bone fragment on the property next door to where Dugard was held. And we have just now learned the suspect here, Phillip Garrido, is also being looked at in at least two other missing children's cases.

Our Dan Simon is at the home in Antioch, California. He has been covering the case since it broke last week. So, too, has Henry Lee. He's a staffer for "The San Francisco Chronicle," and he has been digging in on this stuff as well. Thanks to both of you.

Dan, let me start with you.

We know police were looking for evidence linking him to several other unsolved homicides. Give us the update, since they had this news conference and told you about this bone fragment.

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, authorities have been searching Garrido's home for the last four days or so.

They also extended that search to the neighbors' property. That's because Garrido had access to it back in the 1990s. He was a caretaker of that property, and, according to authorities, actually lived in a shed in the backyard of that property.

Well, they brought cadaver dogs out. And the dogs discovered a bone fragment on the neighbors' property. Authorities not saying -- or at least they don't know at this point if that bone fragment is from a human or an animal. They're taking it obviously to a lab for analysis, Campbell.

BROWN: All right.

And, Henry, I don't have to tell you a lot of people in that community really upset that authorities didn't catch him, Garrido, who was a registered sex offender, a lot sooner and how there were these missed opportunities. What has been their response to all of this?

HENRY LEE, "THE SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE": Well, clearly, the community itself, a lot of the members who live there, residents are saying, we missed this chance, too.

I was right behind the Contra Costa County Sheriff when he said organizationally we could have done better. Neighbors are saying, well, I did hear little girls laughing. I didn't think anything of it. Another neighbor has said, well, I did hear some crying.

So, whether you have heard crying or laughing or whatever, it is unclear to many of us what could have been done. Certainly this guy definitely was a registered sex offender. He could have had his home searched at any time. But back in November 2006, Campbell, a sheriff's deputy said, I didn't look into the backyard and all it was, was just a code violation when he was sent there to look at reports of people and children living in a backyard in tents.

BROWN: I know. Hindsight is 20/20. I know. You know all of these people are thinking about this so much now. Dan, let me go back to you on other stuff, because CNN, as I understand, has also now obtained photographs of the tents and sheds in Garrido's backyard. We glimpsed those earlier, where Jaycee and her daughters lived. And you have taken a hard look at these. Talk to us about just how deplorable these conditions were.

SIMON: Well, you're talking about extreme poverty. It's very filthy. You're talking about raggedy furniture.

There was a book actually found there called "A Family Affair." How ironic is that? But we can tell you that looking at that, obviously you're talking about very cruel, primitive conditions. One picture actually shows a metal cage. Next to it there is some kind of shed. It's got some metal clasps, and it suggests that you can only close and open it from the outside.

And these are the conditions that Jaycee Dugard was subjected to for some 20 years, nearly 20 years there on the property. She lived there obviously with her two children fathered by the suspect, Phil Garrido.

BROWN: And, Henry, I know you have talked to a lot of people in the community too about this. How sheltered do we know -- we're starting to get a sense for how sheltered these children were from everyday society and the ability they had to interact with people.

LEE: Yes, that's right. They didn't go to school. They didn't see doctors or dentists. They were out very, very rarely. So, in fact, they lived a closeted, cloistered existence.

We did see pictures of Dean Koontz novels, which, again, that author writes about eerie stories. This is an eerie story in real life. But for their visit out into the open, to speak, last week, this would not have been discovered. A U.C. Berkeley police officer on campus noticed the girls acting strangely, interaction with Mr. Garrido, and decided to do some digging.

And the sheriff who admits that his department didn't do enough actually lauded this campus police officer, Allison Jacobs, with doing the right thing. And, again, if it wasn't for her diligence, as well as another university employee, Lisa Campbell, this 18-year tragedy would probably have continued for who knows how much longer.

BROWN: All right. Henry Lee, of course, with "The San Francisco Chronicle" and our own Dan Simon, guys, thank you so much. Appreciate the latest info. We will be updating you, of course, throughout the hour as we learn more.

So, how did trained police and parole officers fail to locate Jaycee and her little girls during all those years? You just heard them talk about it. We are going to take a hard look at what may have gone wrong.

We're also going to back live to Southern California, where a massive wildfire has killed now two firefighters. Tonight, five people who refused to leave their homes may now be wishing they had. They have not been able to rescue those people. We will have more on that coming up.


BROWN: More breaking news now. That wildfire burning out of control outside of Los Angeles doubled in size today. Two firefighters are dead -- 105,000 acres -- that's 164 square miles -- have burned. Officials are pleading with people to obey evacuation orders and get out.

CNN's Reynolds Wolf is live in Lake View Terraces, California, with the very latest on this.

Reynolds, what's going on?

REYNOLDS WOLF, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Well, as you mentioned, over 100,000 acres up in smoke, less than 5 percent contained at this time, the fire still roaring as you can see behind my shoulder.

The thing to remember, though, is that so many of these things can be replaced. However, human lives cannot. We have lost two firefighters, their names and their pictures, see the pictures on the screen. Arnaldo Quinones and Tedmund Hall, have lost their lives.

And certainly with the blaze that continues to burn out of control, there are many firefighters that are going to put their lives on the line to try to stop this.

As you can see, the fire is still just incredible. I mean, it is just an attack that has been launched on the fire to try to stop it, not just on land, but from the skies above. And we have live video for you from one of the helicopters showing the battle raging in the clouds.

We're talking about very poor visibility, because very little wind at this time. The smoke is just going straight up, instead of being pushed out to sea, as it would in some cases with say Santa Ana winds. Visibility as time goes on is really going to be limited as we get to the late-night hours, so, certainly some rough times. They have their work cut out for them -- Back to you.

BROWN: All right. Reynolds Wolf joining us live with the latest on that -- Reynolds, you.


BROWN: Police had their chances, but couldn't break Jaycee Dugard's kidnapping case for 18 years. How could this happen? That when we come back.

Plus, there's what you heard about swine flu vaccine, and then there's the truth about the swine flu vaccine.


DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASE: Stay alert and listen to what your local authorities are going to be saying about what -- the best, easiest way to get the vaccine. But it will vary from location to location.


BROWN: Tonight, we're getting a reality check from a top government doctor who is on the case for us, when we come back.


BROWN: And we're going back now to our breaking news tonight.

Within the past hour, the sheriff's department announced that they found a bone fragment on the property next door to where Jaycee Dugard was held. And we have just now learned the suspect here, Phillip Garrido, is being looked at in at least two other missing children's cases.

With me now is Lou Palumbo, a retired law enforcement agent. He's now director of the Elite Intelligence and Protection Agency. Also with us tonight is doctor Jeffrey Lieberman, who is chairman of the psychiatry department at Columbia University. They're going to help us broaden our perspective on everything that has happened here.

Lou, I want to start with you first on the investigation, particularly this moment three years ago when police had the chance to discover what was going on. They were investigating a tip that there were children in Garrido's backyard. They go to the house. They missed it, obviously. So many people right now saying, how could they have missed this? How could they have missed it?

LOU PALUMBO, FORMER NEW YORK POLICE OFFICER: Well, the police officer responded to the scene, and very simply stated he didn't do his job.

I mean, what he should have done initially was contact the complainant to get first-hand exactly what that individual observed. And then the second thing was certainly inspect the area where the two children were observed being.

It's quite obvious from the information that he received that this man was a sex offender, and it was within his legal right to conduct a thorough search and inspect the house. And probably what I would have done, I would have contacted a supervisor as well. I mean, this was a high-profile call, no ifs, ands or buts about it.

BROWN: Even the car was there that this little girl was abducted in.

PALUMBO: Well, I have to tell you, I could speak extended on what the problem is here.

But the long and the short of it is that we need to institute some type of border -- I would say boilerplate procedures as to how you conduct investigations in handling certain cases, because obviously this police officer didn't understand what he was handling, and didn't follow through with what his legal purgatives would be in properly investigating this. BROWN: Also, the University of California Berkeley officer who led to this discovery has been highly praised. And you actually say you think she should have done more.

PALUMBO: I think she should have detained him. Once they identified the...


BROWN: And she would have had the right to do that?


PALUMBO: Absolutely. Absolutely. They could have vetted this whole situation here, because their instincts were right. Their antennas went up.

BROWN: Right.

PALUMBO: There was some unusual, unconventional behavior by these two young adolescent girls in the presence or under the -- in the custody of this man that they clearly identified was somewhat unstable.

I don't know how much more you needed. I would have contacted again a supervisor, after they ran him, and identified the fact that he was a sex offender, to figure out what the relationship was with an 11-year-old he was with.

And they did a great job, Campbell. That's the bottom line. I just wish, in hindsight -- and I don't want to armchair quarterback them -- they just had taken a little more proactive approach to this, after they realized that his being was a little problematic here.

BROWN: All right. Let's talk about the recovery process for these young women, these little girls.

These were squalid conditions. Let's put the photos back up, if we can, of what they were living in, how they were living. This is the only home that these little girls, these daughters of Jaycee Dugard, have ever known.

I mean, Doctor, this is going to be a long road. We know they have just now begun the recovery process. Explain to us, in all likelihood, what happens now. What -- what begins?

DR. JEFFREY LIEBERMAN, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: Well, Campbell, by Lou's analysis, this was a very costly error, because the damage that has been incurred by all three of these girls is likely irreversible. The extent -- we don't know, however, the extent of the damage that they have sustained.

The daughter -- I mean, the mother in this case, Jaycee, was abducted at the age of 11. And how badly she has been emotionally injured depends on what the level of abuse was sexually or physically or emotionally during the time of her capture. But she was already 11, and she was entering her adolescence.

The two children are likely to be more severely impaired in the sense that they were deprived of the normal kind of social, environmental and educational stimuli during their critical stages of development. And we know that if somebody misses that, that there is cognitive and emotional arrest and development that is really never able to be recaptured.

In any event, in all three cases, there is a process in which there can be an adaptation and some partial degree of recovery, but it's going to be a long process that's going to require a tremendous amount of therapy.

BROWN: So is that the process that's beginning now, presumably?

LIEBERMAN: Well, the prognosis at this point is guarded, at best. And I think it's one in which the three girls, plus the maternal mother, the biological mother and the stepfather, need to be supported by the proper types of counseling and psychological, therapeutic experts. And this is going to take a long time.

BROWN: Dr. Jeffrey Lieberman, appreciate your insight tonight. And Lou as always, thanks for being here as well.

PALUMBO: My pleasure.

BROWN: Thank you very much.

Tonight, Phillip Garrido's previous victim is speaking out on "LARRY KING LIVE" plus Jaycee's stepfather on how she is doing now. All of that coming up on "LARRY KING LIVE." That is happening at the top of the hour. We'll be back in a moment.


BROWN: Imagine being lost at sea for eight days, clinging to your capsized boat with nothing to eat but a few crackers and bubblegum. Could you make it?

Well, tonight's newsmaker did. He is Tressell Hawkins. He and his two fishing buddies live to tell this pretty amazing story of survival. Listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is being called a miracle at sea. More than a week ago, three Texas fishermen headed into the Gulf of Mexico.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was supposed to be just an overnight fishing trip until Tressell Hawkins woke up to a nightmare.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They had fallen asleep, and next thing they know their boat capsized.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They clung on to the boat with only crackers and gum to sustain them. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After searching what? A search area about the size of Minnesota, eventually, the Coast Guard gave up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even when the Coast Guards called it off, we just -- we weren't giving up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then when hope was all but lost, three sport fishermen, the guys on this boat right here, "The Affordable Fantasy," made what had to be the catch of their lives. And I'm sure prayers were answered.


BROWN: Tressell Hawkins, welcome to you.


BROWN: So this is a pretty remarkable story. Take us back to how it started. You and two friends, James Phillips, Curtis Hall, set out fishing in the Gulf of Mexico.


BROWN: When did you first know you were in trouble?

HAWKINS: Well, after about 12:30 midnight, I kind of rolled around in a big bag trying to get a better position in the boat, and went to step down and found out that my leg went down to about, I don't know, knee-high full of water in the back of the boat. We found out one of the switches, I guess, malfunctioned on the pump to extract the water. So this is just happening in the spur of the moment. I mean, this is real quick.

And so, Curt tried to start the boat up and move it up a little bit to try to make the water surge out the back. And it was to no avail. After that, three seconds later, the boat just rolled over. We were jumping out and the boat turned one way. We were thrown out the other way.

BROWN: And time is going by. You actually saw Coast Guard helicopters go right over you on Tuesday.


BROWN: I mean, what was that like to see your rescue arrive and then disappear?

HAWKINS: That was totally crazy in itself. I mean, Saturday, we knew that our family and friends were going to start panicking because they knew that we weren't going to be back in, you know, that Saturday afternoon. So we figured at least by then they would start looking for us.

Tuesday came, and we saw a helicopter fly by. We were trying to get its attention, we're waving, you know, shirts on poles. You know, we had canes that we made into reflectors, and to no avail. I mean, the helicopter just came -- kept going.

BROWN: The Coast Guard finally gave up its search. I think it was on day seven that you guys were out there. I mean, what are you saying to each other at that point?

HAWKINS: That this is all about survival. And this is not going to be our final resting place, no matter what we have to do, you know, no matter how long we have to withstand it, you know, even though it broke us down, and, you know, took our spirits and everything else, we still had get out of there.

BROWN: You had a pretty stark supply list. You had crackers, you had gum, some water from, I think, a washing tank that was on the boat.


BROWN: How did you manage to ration that out to make it last for eight days?

HAWKINS: Well, I actually give all that credit to Curt Hall. We were thinking about everything else, and he just all of a sudden just jumped into, well, we've got to ration everything that we have. He was telling us we've got to have a handful of chips. You know, one day we'll have two crackers, you know, as less water as possible, you know, just enough to keep you hydrated.

BROWN: So it was a pleasure boat that finally found you. I mean, what did you think when you spotted that boat, and when you knew that finally you had been found?

HAWKINS: Oh, God, I pretty much knew it was God sent. But it was like a miracle. And it was a second chance at life all over again. I mean, it was great. Fantastic feeling. Overwhelming.

BROWN: I know you've had quite a celebration with your family, your friends. What does it feel like to be home after an ordeal like this? Has it changed your perspective in some way?

HAWKINS: Well, yes, yes. The initial shock, and my heart was just beating so fast, I thought it was going to blow up, actually. But now I'm just kind of -- you know, just learn to appreciate everything a little bit more. You know, instead of letting the people assume things, I'm just going come out right out and tell them exactly, you know, how I feel about them.

It's time to just be with family, regardless of what's going on, regardless of the circumstances. And not only family, but friends, you know, of course.

BROWN: Yes. So, Tressell, what's next for you? Anymore fishing trips planned?

HAWKINS: Well, yes. Actually, I mean, I'm going to go fishing sooner or later, but this time I'm going to looking bank to bank, because we made a promise that we're not going to be going deep sea fishing for a little while. So I guess it's either hunting or, I don't know, picking up another sport, I guess.

BROWN: Tressell Hawkins, well, congratulations to you. Enjoy this time with your family. I know you are happy, happy to be back with them.

HAWKINS: Thank you so much.

BROWN: And when we come back, you heard some pretty scary predictions probably about swine flu. Will there be a vaccine in time? Tonight, we've got a reality check with one of the government's top experts. We're going to separate flu facts from fears, when we come back.


DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NATL. INST. OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Even the absence of the vaccine, there are things that you can do to protect yourself against infection.



BROWN: By now, you have no doubt heard a lot of frightening things about swine flu. Tonight, we even got news that there is a school in Long Island, New York that has a new no touching policy, no high-fives, no hugs, no handshakes as their attempt to try to protect their students from the H1N1 virus. So news like that may lead many of us to conclude we should take our kids out of school and not leave our houses this winter.

I confess, I've been feeling my own swine flu panic. So tonight we are taking or trying to give you a reality check on all of this. Earlier, we spoke with a man who knows probably more about this than just about anybody else. Dr. Anthony Fauci is director of the government's National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. Listen.


BROWN: So I'm a mother. I have two kids under two. I'm trying not to panic. But -- but I'm thinking about the vaccine. I think a lot of us are.

When is it going to be available? Is it going to be available in time?

FAUCI: Well, the vaccine for the H1N1 pandemic flu is going to be available probably around the middle of October. We -- we're giving a date of October the 15th. You've always got to do plus or minus a few days there, but it's very likely it will be available for distribution in mid-October.

BROWN: Now is that soon enough, because you are hearing reports that the outbreaks could happen well before that? FAUCI: Well, yes. I mean obviously you're always concerned about the possibility of an upsurge of infections just as schools start. We hope that the bulk of it, if it comes -- and it likely will come -- will be in time for us to get a good amount of the vaccine distributed.

But even in the absence of the vaccine, there are things that you can do to protect yourself against infection -- the kinds of things you've heard about from the CDC, common sense hygienic things like covering yourself when you cough to not protect others; don't go to school if you get infected; and to protect yourself -- staying away from crowded places where there are people who are infected.

BROWN: OK. Now we do know -- I've been reading that they are testing the vaccine now.


BROWN: Is it safe? You know, people are worried about mercury and Thimerosal in vaccines and whether that can cause serious side effects. And as I understand it, the vaccine will contain mercury.

Is that accurate?

FAUCI: Well, there are two things about the Thimerosal, which is a mercury type of a compound to -- as a preservative.

First of all, despite the concern of people that Thimerosal, in the amounts that are in the vaccine, cause problems. There's no scientific data to indicate that that's the case and independent bodies like the Institute of Medicine have come out very strongly about that.

But having said that, because people are concerned about it and the officials like myself and others are sensitive to those concerns, that the vaccine will be prepared in two different types.

There will be vaccine in single dose vials and in pre-filled syringes that will not contain Thimerosal. And those vaccines will be preferentially directed toward children and pregnant women. There will be some doses in the bigger vials, in the 10 dose vials, which, out of necessity, will have the Thimerosal preservative. But some of it will not and that will be directed toward children and pregnant women.

BROWN: And -- and does -- just to be clear, because a lot of people may have questions relating to this. Where will you get the vaccine? Will it just be at your doctor's office? And will you have to wait.

You know, how do they decide? How do you decide? How does the government decide?

FAUCI: Well, the federal government buys it. So what will happen is that the vaccine will be gotten from the federal government distributed to the states and local areas and it's very likely, for example, that schools will be used as distribution.

You may have clinics, you may have hospitals and it might even be doctors' offices. We tell people to stay alert and listen to what your local authorities are going to be saying about what's the best and easiest way to get the vaccine. But it will vary from location to location.

BROWN: I know it's being tested now, as we mentioned, presumably to be ready by -- by mid-October. But -- but it is a new vaccine. So there are going to be people who are worried...

FAUCI: Right.

BROWN: ... about not so much the mercury, but whether the vaccine more generally is safe, since it's just being tested now.

FAUCI: Right.

BROWN: And what are your thoughts on that?

FAUCI: Well, my thoughts are, Campbell, that -- that the vaccine that will be made and is being made for pandemic H1N1 flu is made in exactly the same way, by the same companies that have been making seasonal flu literally for decades. It really isn't, in the strict sense, a new vaccine. It's a strain change of a vaccine process that has been used for a very long period of time.

Based on that, we never take safety lightly, but you can make a reasonable assumption that it will be safe. Even though we're doing early safety testing on it right now, as we speak, we feel reasonably comfortable that it will be very similar to the seasonal flu, which has a very good safety record.

BROWN: And Dr. Fauci, I -- I'm just going to put you on the spot.

If you had a -- a pregnant daughter, would you tell her to be vaccinated?

If you had young children under -- under the age of two, would you tell them to get the vaccine?

Would you have them vaccinated?

FAUCI: Absolutely. If I had a pregnant daughter who was -- I would recommend strongly that she get vaccinated. My children are older now, but if they were children, young children, I would recommend that they get vaccinated. I would see that they get vaccinated. And I myself, as a health care worker, is going to get vaccinated.


BROWN: That was Dr. Anthony Fauci. He's director of the government's National Institute of Allergy and infectious Diseases. And just ahead, if you saw "The Devil Wears Prada," you may think you know all about Anna Wintour, the editor of "Vogue." Well, in a minute, we're going to take a look inside the life of the woman at the world's top fashion magazine, what it's really like to work for its legendary editor.


ANDRE LEON TALLEY, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, "VOGUE": Really the girls don't run down the halls and so they don't. Every so often, you might see them sort of scurrying and twirling. But they really don't run. And Anna does not throw coats on the desk and she doesn't throw a handbag on the desk, because basically she doesn't carry a handbag.



BROWN: One name strikes fear in the hearts of fashionistas everywhere in awe. And that is Anna Wintour. She is the editor of "Vogue" magazine, the inspiration from Meryl Streep's character in "The Devil Wears Prada". She's also the somewhat reluctant star perhaps of the new documentary feature film "The September Issue." Take a look.


ANNA WINTOUR, EDITOR, "VOGUE" MAGAZINE: The tights seem so large and pretentious. It looks like it's for blind people.

There is something about fashion that can make people very nervous.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One in ten American women, almost 13 million people, will get a September issue of "Vogue."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: September is the January in fashion.


WINTOUR: I'm not crazy about this one.

I don't think we should do --

These are all -- she looks pregnant.



BROWN: Joining me now, R.J. Cutler, who is director of "The September Issue," and Andre Leon Talley, editor-at-large of "Vogue" magazine.

Welcome to both of you.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you for having us.

BROWN: So, R.J., let me start with you.

Anna Wintour a notoriously private person, but she gave you incredible access.

R.J. CUTLER, DIRECTOR, "THE SEPTEMBER ISSUE": She did. She was really on board from the start. It was an amazing thing. Our very first meeting she embraced the idea. It was even her suggestion to focus on "The September Issue." And typical Anna, we got right to work.

BROWN: I want to show a little clip of the film and we'll talk about it after.

Take a look.


ANNA WINTOUR, EDITOR, "VOGUE": I think my father really decided for me that I should work in fashion. He said, well, you want to be editor of "Vogue." Of course, so that was it, it was decided.

The glamour -- "Vogue" OK. Please lift it.

Fashion is not about looking back. It's always about looking forward.

Do you really feel that this is the most important message to put in "The September Issue"?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love it. I thought it was pretty.


BROWN: So R.J., why do -- why do you think she wanted to do this documentary?

Did -- did you have to convince her?

I mean apparently not.

CUTLER: You know, I really -- she -- she has said that she was a fan of my work. I went to her. We had never met. And I said I'm -- I'm interested in seeing how you work, how you do what you do.

You know, Anna Wintour is a person who everybody's heard of but nobody really knows. And so little is known about her and certainly so little is known about how she does what she does and who she does it with.

And that's what I was interested in and she responded to that. BROWN: But you do know her, Andre.


BROWN: And it's not the first time we've seen some version of her...


BROWN: ... on television or at the movies, per se.

TALLEY: At the movies, yes.

BROWN: She was, of course, the inspiration for Meryl Streep's character in "The Devil Wears Prada."

TALLEY: Yes. Yes.

BROWN: So was that completely blown out of proportion?

TALLEY: Really, the girls don't run down the hall and so they don't (ph). Every so often, you might see them sort of scurrying (ph) and swirling. But they really don't run. And Anna does not throw coats on the desk.


TALLEY: And she doesn't throw her handbag on the desk, because, basically, she doesn't carry a handbag. And I've never seen her throw anything -- books, coats, lipstick, nothing.

CUTLER: She doesn't need to throw things.


CUTLER: Anna Wintour doesn't need to yell. She doesn't need to throw things. People know how she feels. It's all in the glance (ph). You see it -- you saw it in the clips we just showed and the nuance, the gesture.

BROWN: R.J., I, frankly, was familiar with your political work.


BROWN: So I was sort of surprised that -- that you -- you personally would have an interest in fashion and in doing something like this.


BROWN: Where did that come from?

CUTLER: Well, what interests me, really, are people who are passionate about what they do and are doing it as well as they possibly can in high stakes circumstances. And certainly that describes James Carville and George Stephanopoulos running a presidential campaign and Anna Wintour running "Vogue" magazine. And I was curious about her.

And not just Anna, everybody at "Vogue."

BROWN: Let's show people another clip because you're in the film also. Take a look at this.

TALLEY: Oh, God.


TALLEY: I wouldn't come to the center court in just a pair of shorts and a tennis shirt. I go to (INAUDIBLE) with my trousers. I go to Ralph Lauren for the shirt.

This is my version of a tennis watch. It's a (INAUDIBLE) but I would wear this on the tennis court. I would wear it all day long. It's all a part of the whole life of being who I am. I have to get up and approach life with my own aesthetics about style.


TALLEY: Oh, I hit the ball.

BROWN: You weren't even looking.

I can't watch myself. I can't watch myself. Come on, that was great.

TALLEY: Thank you.

BROWN: Now, let me ask you, a slightly more serious question. I mean a lot of people look at you here and they look at the images in this magazine and they see -- you know, unbelievably skinny models -- these beautiful, beautiful people and what you convey with "Vogue" -- the fashion. And they think this is not my reality in any way. And you don't care.

TALLEY: Oh, we do care. We -- you know, Anna has the shape issue every year where the whole focus in on -- she has a shape issue and an age issue. Both are very popular. In the shape issue, she shows all sizes, figures, colors.

CUTLER: Here's what I think. You say -- you say that fat -- that it doesn't impact the -- everybody's day to day life, and yet it's not true. Fashion impacts all of our lives. We wake up in the morning and we put on clothes. The clothes we put on have a great deal to say about who we are. It reflects society.

Richard Avedon (ph) said fashion is the way we live in the world and it's true. It impacts everybody. And it drives economies.

TALLEY: We always approach it, we hope, the highest sophisticated standards. But, as I always say, "Vogue" is not a tea party and we take ourselves seriously in our work.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: And that was Vogue editor-at-large Andre Leon Talley and "September Issue" director, R.J. Cutler. The documentary is playing now in New York and opens September 11th across the country.

That does it for us tonight. "LARRY KING LIVE" is coming up next. His exclusive interview with the previous victim of the alleged California kidnapper starts right after the break.