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ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL
Exams Show Garrido was Admitted Sex Addict
Aired September 4, 2009 - 19:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, astonishing new stories about the woman who was held captive for 18 long years. Jaycee`s uncontainable happiness too good to be true? Will her dark past come back to haunt her? And what about other women across the country who live day in and day out in dominating, abusive relationships? It`s a side of the story you`ll only hear on ISSUES.
Then, new outrage in the wrong-way DUI accident that killed eight. The victims` families wonder, does the dead driver`s husband, Daniel Schuler, have something to hide? They want a sample of his hair. They want to test him for drugs. The demand made this morning, should Daniel accept the children? We`ll debate it.
Plus, more shocking evidence released in the murder case against Casey Anthony, the 23-year-old mom accused of killing her daughter Caylee. What she told bounty hunter Leonard Padilla, days after he bailed her out of jail. Was she caught in another lie? And what`s this about Zanny, the fake nanny, putting Casey is an alleged choke hold? It`s the latest jaw dropper you can`t afford to miss.
ISSUES starts now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: tonight, unbridled joy for Jaycee Dugard`s family, as they drink in the closeness they have been denied for 18 long years. But when the celebrations are over, will this courageous survivor of kidnapping and assault be haunted by her grisly past?
We are also learning horrific -- and I mean horrific -- new details about rapist Phillips Garrido`s addiction to drugs and sex. I have got right here a copy of his psychiatric profile from way back in 1976. It is a humdinger.
Garrido told the doctor he was, quote, "preoccupied with the idea of sex," and he strongly believed that LSD increased his sexual powers. Garrido confessed these urges 15 years before he allegedly stole little Jaycee from her family.
With the release of those sick details tonight, there`s even more outrage that Garrido was let out of prison 40 years early for committing rape back in the 1970s. The officer who arrested him in 1976 after he raped Katie Hall is also furious, livid that Garrido was let free to strike again. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAN DEMARANVILLE, RETIRED POLICE DETECTIVE: He`s sick. He`s not stupid. And he`s not crazy. He`s sick. He should have been neutered when he got out of federal prison. That would have stopped all this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Or perhaps they should have simply kept him behind bars where he belongs. Tonight, we`re talking again to the child safety expert who has known Garrido for years. He had the nerve to talk to her about child abduction.
He said, quote, "If an adult approaches a group, they all scatter and you just grab one. That`s all you want anyway," end quote.
Talk about twisted irony. How is Garrido able to remain free? How did he lure his wife, Nancy, into his web of violence and psychosis? And is this disturbing case just an extreme example of abuse that is occurring in many American homes?
Straight out to my fantastic expert panel, criminal defense attorney Jayne Weintraub; Michelle Ward, psychologist and clinical neuroscientist; sex therapist Judy Kuriansky, a.k.a. Dr. Judy; and Janice Gomes, the child safety expert I just mentioned, the one who knew Garrido.
But first we`re going to go to Stacey Honowitz, who is the supervisor of the sex crimes unit in the Florida prosecutor`s office.
Stacey, as a prosecutor, when you read this highly disturbing psychiatric report from 1976, does it horrify you even more that he was let out 40 years early, when they knew he was sex obsessed, they knew he was hooked on LSD, and they knew he was hallucinating?
STACEY HONOWITZ, SUPERVISOR, SEX CRIMES UNIT, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR`S OFFICE: It`s so disturbing, because you start to wonder, what did they evaluate him based upon to let him go? What was the parole board actually looking at?
You know, in Florida before a sex offender is going to be released there, they are evaluated by psychologists and psychiatrists, and if the psychiatrist believes that they`re going to re-offend, they can be committed for their lifetime.
So when you see a psychiatric report like this, where they`re sleeping at the wheel, what was it that they didn`t understand from this report? This is going to be a huge investigation. Unfortunately, now the parole members are, you know, elderly or dead, I think, but certainly, some investigation has to be looked into in this case.
DR. JUDY KURIANSKY, SEX THERAPIST: I totally agree. And...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead, Dr. Judy.
KURIANSKY: On top of that, it`s the psychiatrist who was sleeping at the wheel, because I have seen patients like this in hospitals. And back in 1976, when I was on the committee, actually, where we defined the psychiatric diagnoses, you pay attention to those, and there were treatments at the time.
You know, not LSD for him, but he has psychotic disorders, and he needed to be treated with psychiatric medication, would have prevented some -- back in the `70s, are you kidding me? I was there then. And back in the `70s, when we first started those psychiatric medications, that might have been helpful.
And we also had some treatment. And there possibly at that time could have been chemical castration for him, which nowadays we even back off of.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hey, I`m all for it. I`m all for chemical castration in the case of a sicko like this. I know that some people think that`s wild and extreme, but...
KURIANSKY: Exactly, now they do.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what? Being held for 18 years is wild and extreme. And what gets me, Michelle Ward -- you`re the psychologist -- is that this psychiatrist concludes, well, he`s competent to understand the charges against him and able to assist his attorney, and he did not lack substantial capacity to either appreciate the truth.
In other words, he`s saying he can stand trial. No big whoop. Put him on trial. Maybe that`s right. But I think that there`s a certain la- di-da cavalier attitude about this report. When somebody says they`re taking LSD, they`re talking to God, they`re having hallucinations, and they`re obsessed with sex. That`s a pretty nasty combination.
MICHELLE WARD, PSYCHOLOGIST: Right. He basically told you he`s going to commit more crimes. He`s having all of these sexual hallucinations. He`s telling them what he thinks. He`s leering at girls from 7 to 10 years old. I mean, pedophilia is not cured very easily, and he was just another accident waiting to happen.
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Remember, people, this is 25 years ago, we didn`t have a heightened awareness we do now. We didn`t have Jimmy Rice laws or Adam Walsh laws, you know, and promulgated through all this knowledge that we now have in our culture.
HONOWITZ: Jane, the bottom line is it doesn`t take -- might not have had that knowledge back then, but it doesn`t take a brain surgeon to look at a psychiatric report and says this guy is going to reoffend.
KURIANSKY: ... knowledge back then, and there were ways to treat it. And I know we had the knowledge back then. It was just overlooked, and it was bad judgment on a lot of people`s part. And don`t tell me it wasn`t, because I...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I`m going to jump in here. Let me just say that the detective who arrested him for the 1976 rape said that he told him that he couldn`t have sexual gratification without it being forced sex.
Of all the things that I`ve heard, that is the most damming, that they let him out when he said the only way he could have sexual satisfaction was to rape.
Phillip Garrido`s wife, Nancy, who was also charged in this case, is a complete contradiction. She worked -- believe this -- a nursing and physical therapy aid is what she was for the disabled. So one day she`s caring for people, the next day she`s allegedly helping her husband kidnap a child?
But tonight, the big question I`m asking our expert panel: is she an extreme example of what plenty of women experience every day?
Take a look at this, people. This is the power and control wheel, which shows the techniques male abusers use to dominate and control certain women: threaten, intimidate, isolate the women in their homes, treat them like servants, humiliate them, make them economically dependant, and then threaten to harm the kids if they make a move. Judy Kuriansky...
KURIANSKY: Jane, that is, in fact -- I`m glad you came up with that, because that is the very popular wheel that we go by now to show exactly what happens in domestic violence and the fact that these women are often very insecure people.
Remember, Nancy Garrido was a prison groupie. These women have very low self-esteem. They need to vicariously express some sort of power through the guy. They develop a learned helplessness when they`re involved with the guy even more becoming insecure.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I want to bring in Janice Gomes. She knew Phillip Garrido.
We`re listening to all this, Janice. What are your thoughts on his character and why he was able to keep four females in his house, obviously under lock and key. But also Nancy. Why was he able to dominate her in this way that she became essentially his factotum?
JANICE GOMES, NEIGHBOR OF GARRIDOS (via phone): You know, I think one of the things that comes into any kind of a situation, whether it`s child abuse or whether it`s spousal abuse, one of things that we have learned over time is there`s comfort in a bad situation.
At least you know you have a roof over your head. You know that you have a comfort zone. You have a bedroom you can go to. You have a kitchen you can go to. So you kind of put aside all the other things that are going on in your world.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Not to interrupt you, Janice, but did he have any kind of a charismatic quality that some of these cult leaders have? Because he was a wannabe cult leader.
GOMES: No. No, he had no charismatic qualities at all.
KURIANSKY: He may have not have had charismatic qualities to you, but obviously, he had charismatic qualities to the women who ended up being within, I believe I agree with you, Jane, his cult environment.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there`s only one woman. The rest of them were kidnapped or produced as a result of rape.
KURIANSKY: Yes, but then they become part of it, Jane.
GOMES: Most of them were under pressure.
KURIANSKY: They become part of it. So it doesn`t matter whether he first was torturing them. After a while, as we just heard, they become secure. They`re taken care of. They become a business...
WARD: Can I jump in here?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jump in. Hold on. Jump in, Michelle. Jump in, Michelle.
WARD: How do we know she wasn`t completely complicit in this? I mean, look at Karla Homolka, who claimed she was abused and had nothing to do with it. And we don`t know that she`s a complete victim. She could have been in on the sickness. She can be very sick herself.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: She obviously is. We`re talking about Nancy Garrido. Extremely sick.
My point, by bringing up the power and control wheel, is that, in homes across America, women are giving up their power and becoming completely dependent, economically and psychologically, emotionally and in other ways, on a man who then has unbridled power. And you know what they say: power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is a cautionary tale for all American women to keep their power.
More on this case after the break. We are taking your calls: 1-877- JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297. Does Daniel Schuler, whose wife drove the young way and killed herself and seven others, have something to hide? Time will tell.
Then shocking new details emerge about Jaycee Dugard. But what about her life before she escaped captivity?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Didn`t see anything that was weird or like she was looking over our shoulder or nothing. Just -- she seemed a normal person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TINA DUGARD, JAYCEE`S AUNT: I just went forward and cried and hugged and held her as tight as I possibly could. I was surreal and fabulous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That was Jaycee Dugard`s aunt on the "CBS Early Show," describing her family`s highly emotional reunion. It`s been just over a week since Jaycee and her daughters were rescued from Phillip Garrido`s hell hole. We`ve learned all that -- his sick history and the countless mistakes allowed him to collect more victims.
Now, back to my fantastic panel. And the phone lines lighting up.
Barbara, California, your question or thought, ma`am.
CALLER: Hello, Jane.
CALLER: I`ve heard that when children are molested repeatedly, they develop an ability to take themselves out of the scene as if they`re not there. So I was wondering if Jaycee perhaps was able to compartmentalize her dual roles, that of victim and mother, that she could deal with this nightmare satisfactorily over the years?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Michelle Ward...
KURIANSKY: I`m going to give Barbara an honorary degree here, because that`s exactly what happens. There`s a disassociation that children who are abused sexually go through. Physically, even, where they`re up on the ceiling, watching it happen, and then they can develop a disassociative personality disorder, where that happened to another part of them. And yet in another way that they functioned. And that is indeed -- so Barbara, there you go. Star for you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Michelle, what are your thoughts on the caller`s fabulous theory?
WARD: Absolutely right. I mean, it happens even in one instance of abuse. But can you imagine all of these years of abuse, in order to survive this child -- now woman, must have had to disassociate herself.
I mean, remember -- I mean, she was only 11 years old. Now she`s a 29-year-old mother of two to survive this. She had to do some pretty amazing things in her head, I would imagine.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, in the midst of all this evil we`re uncovering, the family experiencing some profound healing. Here is Jaycee Dugard`s aunt on "The CBS Early Show" talking about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DUGARD: I want you to know that a lot of great things are happening right now and that they`re happy. The girls are with their mom. I have heard her call my sister Mom.
At night, we were all sitting together, and my sister was French braiding Jaycee`s hair. And I remember thinking, "Wow. She`s French braiding Jaycee`s hair for the first time in 18 years."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Stacey Honowitz, you`re with the sex crimes unit, a Florida prosecutor. The family focusing on the here and now. But there are teams of psychologists, as well as law enforcement, circled around them because they have to get some hard information. How do you navigate all that without re-traumatizing the victims?
HONOWITZ: Well, there`s always going to be trauma involved. The first thing that they need to do with her is really, they have to let her be with the family. I mean, certainly, law enforcement wants to get in there and wants to find out what happened.
But they realize they have to take a step back at this time. The most important thing right now is letting her get reacquainted with the family that she hasn`t been with for so long. And in time, train law enforcement professionals, seasoned, sex crime detectives will know the right time from the therapist to come in and be able to really debrief her and investigate -- investigate what happened, what kind of sexual abuse went on.
So right now, they`re taking a second -- they`re taking a back seat and letting the therapist work through it.
KURIANSKY: There`s a lot of joy that`s going on here, but we have to realize that this is also a woman who has another family that she has been living with...
KURIANSKY: ... and living with and adjusted to. So let me just say that this is almost insane. You mentioned before to expand the issue to, like, all women who are abused.
This is also related to kids who have been adopted when they were little in the sense that all of a sudden they meet the biological parents. They have two families then. And that is a huge kind of adjustment.
It may be joy for the family who is bringing Jaycee back. But for Jaycee herself, there`s going to be conflict. Two families.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on. Michelle, go ahead.
WARD: Yes, I think that -- I agree with both of them. And I think she might be more freaked out now than she`s been in years. Remember, this is a family she only had for 11 years. She`s been with this family, this abusive, corrupted family for 18.
So yes, this is a great reunion, but I think it`s going to take her a lifetime of recovery.
KURIANSKY: Let me tell you something else that`s really important about kids who are abused. They actually -- sometimes the crazier the parent is, the more sane the children can become, because they know that that is crazy.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, actually, that makes sense, because these kids are, according to reports, extremely well-balanced. They`re educated. They know how to use the Internet. And everybody was shocked at how together they were given all of this. And that`s probably one of reasons why, is that they had to to survive, be really sharp.
New revelations today from this guy`s 1976 psychiatric report. Did Phillip Garrido envision himself as a cult leader? The doctor, the psychiatrist said Garrido mentioned God and Jesus several times during the exam.
Years later, he was accused of scamming an elderly man out of thousands of dollars, claiming that he was starting a church. Garrido had four females under his control at home, at least three of them under lock and key. Cult leaders like David Koresh and Charles Manson had similar manipulative personalities.
But this Garrido was low level. He brought the terror just into his own home.
Janice Gomes, tell us about how he attempted to lure your beautiful granddaughter into a Bible study just a couple of days before his arrest.
GOMES: What he was doing was he was just leaving and then, on going out the door, he just went into song. And when he stopped singing he said to her, "Would -- why don`t you come to my Bible study on a Wednesday." And that was enough for her to just disappear, say no, and she just got out of there. That`s the type of child she is.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: How old is your granddaughter?
GOMES: She`s 16.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And what does she look like?
GOMES: She`s a blue-eyed blond.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So it fits the type. I mean, are you actually afraid that -- do you look back and think, "Oh, my God, he could have done something to my granddaughter"?
GOMES: No, because he would have had to face my son-in-law. And he knew the work, did business cards and different things with my son-in-law. And he knew not to even mess with him.
But you know, one of things I haven`t heard you say when you`re talking about all these different kinds of personalities these people have...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hang on, Janice. We`ll get back. We`re coming back in just a moment. We`re also going to talk about Casey Anthony. Stay right there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DUGARD: And together we hugged, and she said, "Auntie Tina," and she absolutely knew who I was. She remembered us -- she remembered me right away. She knew exactly who I was. I knew exactly who she was. It was, as I said, one of happiest moments of my life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: More touching revelations from Jaycee Dugard`s aunt on "The CBS Early Show."
The sentencing laws that allowed Phillip Garrido`s early parole are, thank God, more rigid today. But isn`t it time to look at how the system treats sex offenders so we can make sure other Phillip Garridos aren`t flying under the radar, getting ready to attack someone else, because they are released from prison early?
Phone lines lighting up.
P.J., Massachusetts, your question or thought, ma`am.
CALLER: yes, Jayne. I commend you and love all that you do for everyone. God bless you and your sobriety.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you.
CALLER: I -- I was a victim at around 6 years old from a friend`s father and then when I was older by older men, once with a gun in my mouth. And I think, no matter what, pedophiles, rapists, the first time is the last time. Throw them in jail. Throw the key away, because they are never going to stop.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jayne Weintraub?
WEINTRAUB: That`s one of the problems. It`s a real sickness, and it needs to be treated.
The other problem, of course, here is how do these girls heal and where do they go from here? And as you keep talking about, when will women learn they have the right to say no, as girls to adulthood?
And part of the problem here is that people were not trained in the probation and parole office to go and search and designate and seek out these violations, which were apparent from the beginning.
And that brings me to the point I was going to bring (ph) to Stacey before: hopefully these girls and women will never have to testify against this guy, because the parole violation itself will be a basis for a life sentence. And these girls will be able to go on and not be subjected...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Great point. Stacey Honowitz.
HONOWITZ: Jane, could I just say one other thing? There was a case, I believe that there was a case with a 14-year-old girl, and she did not want to testify in court. That was a case against Phil Garrido years ago before this one.
I think it`s a message that you need to send to your viewers, and we need to send is that if you find yourself in this situation, that you have to be strong enough to come into court and testify, even if you`re a little kid.
Parents have to realize, many times parents come to me and say, "I don`t want to subject this child to court." I understand that. It is a -- it`s an experience that no one should have to go through. But if they don`t come to court and they don`t testify, our hands are tied. They get baby sentences, and they`re let out and they re-offend.
So I`m urging everyone that`s watching that might find themselves in this situation, require their child in this situation, don`t be afraid to go forward. That`s the only way to get them off the street.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Judy Kuriansky, is it going to retraumatize them if they have to testify again? Or could it be a catharsis to confront the sicko and tell the truth in front of him?
KURIANSKY: Both things can actually happen, Jane. You`re absolutely right. It will be important for them to be prepared about what they`re going to say.
Don`t forget. This is also the father, their own father. And sick and perverted, as we all think he is, this is a father. It is tremendously traumatizing for those girls to be able to say things against him.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we have to leave it right here. Thank you, fantastic panel.
An outraged family speaks out, but is Daniel Schuler, the man whose wife killed seven people and herself in an alleged drunk driving accident, actually listening?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: New outrage in the wrong-way DUI accident that killed eight. The victims` families wonder, does the dead driver`s husband, Daniel Schuler, have something to hide?
They want a sample of his hair. They want to test him for drugs. The demand made this morning. Should Daniel accept the challenge? We`ll debate it.
Plus, more shocking evidence released in the murder case against Casey Anthony, the 23-year-old mom accused of killing her daughter Caylee. What she told the bounty hunter Leonard Padilla days after he bailed her out of jail. Was she caught in another lie?
And what`s this about Zanny the fake Nanny putting Casey in an alleged choke hold? It`s the latest jaw dropper you can`t afford to miss.
Tonight, outrage from the family of two men killed in the horrific wrong-way drunk-driving crash that left eight people dead, including four kids. A family that lost two loved ones is furious over the bizarre claims made the husband of the drunk driver.
The medical examiner says driver Diane Schuler was very drunk and high on pot when she smashed head on driving the wrong way on the freeway into an SUV last month.
Since the accident, husband Daniel Schuler has made excuse after excuse for his dead wife. But his latest comments claiming he wanted to exhume his wife`s body to prove she didn`t use drugs or drink were simply too much for the family of the victims.
Their attorney gave Daniel Schuler this challenge on the "Today Show" this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
IRVING ANOLIK, BASTARDI FAMILY ATTORNY: I would challenge Mr. Schuler and his lawyer to voluntarily contribute hair samples from Mr. Schuler.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Did Daniel Schuler not only know about his wife`s drug use but smoke pot himself? I have no idea. We`ve contacted Daniel`s attorney for a response but have not heard back.
The bigger question, has Daniel brought all of this criticism on himself by insisting his wife`s toxicology report was simply wrong?
Straight out to my fantastic expert panel: Mike Gaynor, retired detective; Michelle Ward, psychologist; Stacey Honowitz, Florida prosecutor; Jayne Weintraub, criminal defense attorney.
Jayne, some would say, if you could dish it out, you better be able to take it. Couldn`t we have predicted the family of these two victims would eventually strike back at Daniel for his stubborn insistence that the cops got it all wrong and his wife had not had the equivalent of ten alcoholic drinks?
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, it`s a classic case of careful what you wish for because the medical examiner`s office on the blood alcohol level probably did not get it wrong.
But the interesting thing here is to what end is this? I certainly understand the victims` outrage at all of this. Let`s not forget there was a broken bottle -- let`s not even mention it was a vodka bottle in the back seat of the car. How can you vicariously hold someone -- another adult -- responsible for their spouse or grown child? All we can do as people is say, "Don`t get behind the car or I hope you`re not driving."
Nobody can pull them in. What are you supposed to do? Police your spouse? Nobody could have anticipated the horror.
MIKE GAYNOR, RETIRED DETECTIVE: Yes, yes you are.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, Mike?
GAYNOR: Yes, you are supposed to police your spouse. If indeed this man was aware that his wife was drinking and drugging and allowed her to drive a car...
WEINTRAUB: What do you mean allowed her?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let Mike tell his side.
GAYNOR: If you`ll just allow me to say -- I`m talking hypothetically. If indeed if someone allows someone else to drive their vehicle knowing that they`re intoxicated, then they too contributed to the crime if indeed it`s considered a crime other than an accident.
This is a terrible situation.
WEINTRAUB: She didn`t get permission. She took the car.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, look...
GAYNOR: Do you think that the husband is not trying to protect himself from both criminal and civil liability in this case? Do you really believe that? That`s what he`s doing.
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Listen, we have the Dram Shop Laws where they tell you that if the bartender knows that you had too much to drink and he let`s you get into the car he could be responsible. And I think that`s what they are looking for here.
If he knew that she had a drug problem; if he knew that morning that she had ingested alcohol or taken drugs and she got in the vehicle and he didn`t try to stop her, they want to try to hold him responsible. They might have a case if that`s the fact.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The attorney for the family of two men killed in the crash say if Diane Schuler`s body is exhumed, as Daniel says he wants to, he wants her tested for pot use. He also wants the husband, Daniel Schuler`s hair tested as well.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen to what this attorney said on the "Today Show" this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANOLIK: It`s inconceivable that the deceased was using marijuana without the knowledge of her husband and I suspect that if his hair follicles are examined, it will show that he also had plenty of drugs over the period of time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Just to explain scientifically, apparently hair samples can show drug use dating back for months.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. So why is that ridiculous, he`s the one who said we didn`t do drugs, that she didn`t do drugs, that she didn`t drink...
WEINTRAUB: He`s not behind the wheel. Whether or not he smoked marijuana a month ago is irrelevant to the car crash here. This was an accident.
And I`m not defending a drunk driver because God knows I don`t do that and I wouldn`t defend a drunk driver because it`s undefendable. But you can`t be responsible for somebody else.
Could someone stop you when you were drinking, Jane?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, no...
WEINTRAUB: Well, nobody was going to this lady either if she was an alcoholic.
GAYNOR: I could stop you from driving.
HONOWITZ: If he standing there at the time that she got into the car. If he was standing at the point where she got in the car and she was intoxicated, then he could be held responsible. You`re right; nobody can tell you what to do, but in this case --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: She could have been a closet drinker. There is a lot of evidence not just from him but other people who said she was fine when she got in the car that morning
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And she maybe a closet drinker because there is a lot of misinformation about alcoholism. How does this husband know whether she`s an alcoholic? Even many psychologists are ignorant about this.
In my new book, "I Want," I explain how my first therapist asked me, "Why can`t you drink moderately and have a glass of wine and leave it at that." This question -- and she was a lovely lady -- but it revealed a total lack of understanding of how alcoholism works.
By definition an alcoholic cannot drink moderately, the very first sip triggers cravings that completely overwhelm the body and the mind.
So Michelle Ward, if there is a saving grace from this horrific tragedy, perhaps people might start to understand how alcoholism works. It`s not a character defect. Not a lack of will power. It is disease. It is a disease and she is...
MICHELLE WARD, PSYCHOLOGIST: You are born with predispositions for it often. You can be born with predispositions for that disease.
And first of all, lots of people drink and their spouses and friends don`t know it. Have you met many American teenagers? They drink and their parents don`t know it.
And also, his kids where in that car; I doubt he was fastening her seat belt for her and sending her on her way.
WEINTRAUB: He`s in denial.
WARD: Maybe he is in denial. But there`s just as much of a chance that she is drinking. There are closet drinkers, there`s binge drinkers; it is not a simple this alcoholic looks like this and everyone knows about it. We`ve all seen cases where people have drug and alcohol problems that nobody knew about.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mike Gaynor, one of things about this case that`s fascinating is that there is unaccounted for time in the drive. And that the first two phone calls she made she sounded fine. At a certain point she started slurring her words and one of the children in the car actually made a cell phone call and said, auntie is slurring her words.
There`s a possibility that she took that vodka bottle and pulled over in some side street or at a fast food joint or rest stop and guzzled the equivalent of ten drinks.
GAYNOR: It`s certainly possible. This whole case is probably going to end up as a civil case. This idea that the husband, Mr. Schuler, is going to exhume the body is not very likely and it`s certainly -- his attorney, Barbara, is not going to allow him to take any personal test as well.
This will probably be handled as a civil case, a wrongful death, insurance policies. This guy may end up losing his home, rest assured, as a result of this. But he`s about as responsible for his wife`s driving as if he was a bartender serving her too many drinks.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But he`s made himself responsible, Stacey Honowitz, by becoming the poster boy for denial. He`s made himself...
WEINTRAUB: He loves his wife, he`s grieving his children`s death, Jane.
GAYNOR: He does protest too much.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on.
HONOWITZ: Jane, the difference is when he`s out there and he`s in denial and he`s grieving, I agree with that. You don`t go on national television and say she was driving under the influence of Anbesol.
Does he really think that everyone in this country is an idiot? Because half the people would be under the influence of Anbesol because a million people put that in their mouth everyday.
So he wants to make himself the center of attention. If they wants to be the grieving father, then don`t stand out there and make excuses that she has a lump in her leg or she has Anbesol in her mouth.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Michelle Ward, I think the point you made was absolutely on target. So many people are in complete denial, it`s easier to see with a kid. I think they call it "my dog doesn`t have flea" syndrome.
WARD: That`s right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You cannot conceive the fact your child had sex, that your child takes drugs, or your child drinks. And they`re doing all of that and they walk in all innocent and you`re completely clueless.
WARD: That`s right. And let`s not forget this guy has three things going on. It`s three-pronged. He wants to protect his surviving son. He wants to protect his wife`s image. And he wants to protect himself from litigation which we all know is going to happen.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: we`re going to have to leave it right there. Thank you, fantastic panel.
It is national recovery month. And if you`re in recovery, you are invited. It`s A&E`s recovery rally and March over the Brooklyn Bridge. I will be the mistress of ceremonies so please join me and 10,000 other sober people, Saturday September 12th.
I talk about my struggle to get sober in my new autobiography called "I Want." I write about how everything in my life changed after I put down my last drink more than 14 years ago.
To order my book, just go to cnn.com/jane, look for the order section. If you`re battling drugs, booze, sugar, food, whatever, or know somebody who is, this book could really help you.
Coming up, Eliot Spitzer`s high priced hooker gets slammed for posting her side of the story online. We`re going to tell you who`s outraged and why.
Then, is Casey Anthony a pathological liar? You decide right after the break.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What did Casey Anthony tell bounty hunter Leonard Padilla days after he bailed her out of jail? That`s up next.
But first, "Top of the Block" tonight.
Some women are outraged over Ashley Dupre`s recent blog post. You may remember yesterday, Eliot Spitzer`s high-priced former prostitute criticized women by claiming that we are all just like her because some date wealthy men to get what they want.
One woman who responded to the "New York Post" saying, quote, "I completely disagree. As a woman you have to have self-respect." You think?
Still other women seem to agree with Dupre`s assessment of women saying, "They are not giving you direct cash but you are getting things for sleeping with them." Them, being men.
We`re going to spare you from having to listen to Dupre`s song again on this show tonight. But if you really want to hear it, there is a link on our Facebook page which you can get to from cnn.com/jane.
Frankly, my opinion is Ashley cannot sing and her argument that all women are like hookers, sick and pathetic and it`s not the conversation we need to be having in the 21st century.
Wake up Ashley. A lot of us women actually buy our own stuff. That`s tonight`s "Top of the Block."
Now to block buster revelations in the Casey Anthony case: a mountain of evidence dumped by Florida prosecutors just hours ago. Shocking new audio tape expose a side of Casey Anthony her defense probably doesn`t want you to know about.
Last August bounty hunter Leonard Padilla sprung Casey from the slammer on half a million dollars bond. Listen to what his associate told cops about how Casey was acting the very day she came home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She comes in, happy as can be -- hey, hi -- gives me a big hug. And just, "Oh, I want to take a shower." Not a word about Caylee. Not a word about her daughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Her daughter is missing, not a word. What does that say about Casey`s guilt or innocence? We`ll debate.
I also want to hear what you think.
Straight out to my fantastic expert panel: Jayne Weintraub, criminal defense attorney; Mike Gaynor, retired NYPD detective and president of East Coast Detectives Limited; and the one and only Rozzie Franco, reporter for WFLA 540 AM.
Rozzie, what is the very latest?
ROZZIE FRANCO, REPORTER, WFLA 540 AM: Tracy McLaughlin (ph) was glued to Casey as soon as she was bailed out of jail, Jane. And I`ll tell you the bombshell statements that she told police just simply reaffirmed her sort of sociopathic characteristics that were revealed initially in those reports by her family and her friends.
Saying Casey only cares about herself. Casey lies and she believes her own lies. Tracy simply told police, "Listen, she didn`t talk about Caylee at all." She didn`t even tell Leonard Padilla who offered his services to help find the girl details about how she would have been missing. She was highly combative the entire time.
Basically everything Tracy told police was just a confirmation of everything that was said before about her in all the other transcripts.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We don`t know whether Tracy has an agenda. But we`re going to listen to the jaw-dropping sound bytes and from the interview with Leonard Padilla`s associate, Tracy McLaughlin.
Here she is describing Casey`s reaction to her own notoriety. This is a humdinger.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The first time -- she`s talking about herself and the news. She just talks about stupid things. She didn`t talk about Caylee at all. She didn`t talk about the case on the first, but the night after...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was she saying about herself?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think I should sign portraits or sign pictures and get money for the defense, maybe we could take it on the radio, get on the Howard stern show but he would want to know my bra size. Then if Jose was hitting it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ouch, Jayne Weintraub, that is embarrassing stuff. Jose Baez, as we all know, the defense attorney for Casey Anthony. Essentially she`s saying that people will wonder if I`m getting it on with Jose Baez who I ran into the other day. He`s a very nice guy by the way, this is not something that should reflect on him. This is his client saying this stuff.
But Jayne Weintraub, how damaging could this stuff be?
WEINTRAUB: First of all, I don`t think it will be that damaging because by the time Jose gets a hold of this woman on the witness stand, this Tracy McLaughlin, he`s going to be able to demonstrate exactly what you were talking about. What`s her agenda?
She signed a contract Jane. She signed a privacy agreement, here`s her signature, right on the agreement. She is being held to the confidentiality in that home, nothing that Casey Anthony says will be used or uttered by Tracy McLaughlin, Leonard Padilla or anybody else in there. It`s right here in the agreement.
Jose knows it and Jose will show it to her on the witness stand and indicate on cross-examination...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second. Jayne, when the cops ask you a question, don`t you have to answer it?
WEINTRAUB: First of all, she didn`t have -- she was not asked questions, she volunteered all that stuff, that`s number one. Number two, no, because there`s no record of any of this. She`s laughing even in this interview. Did you hear her demeanor? Why did she think it was funny?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What does that mean she wasn`t asked questions?
WEINTRAUB: She`s just saying she didn`t even ask by Caylee; she didn`t even say anything. But you know what the truth is she doesn`t even have a record of what was said and what she was doing and what`s wrong with her trying to raise money for her own defense.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I have a yes or no question, is she going to be able to take the stand for the prosecution and essentially repeat all of this stuff in front of a jury?
WEINTRAUB: I hope not. That will be up to the judge...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m not asking what the hopes and dreams are...
GAYNOR: The answer is yes and it`s going to be up to the judge like Jayne just said.
Here`s the thing, it`s a circumstantial case, these things she didn`t say about her daughter only reflect the type of person that she is. And you can`t draw the conclusion as a result that she`s a killer.
However, there is a strong circumstantial case here against her. It`s not just her attitude when she spoke to Miss McLaughlin. It goes way back to the beginning. How many mothers in this country do we believe would not report their child missing...
WEINTRAUB: But that`s not evidence that she`s guilty of murder.
GAYNOR: Of course not. But when you --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: One at a time. Jayne, go ahead.
WEINTRAUB: If the judge rules that these conversations were not protected and part of the work product attorney-client privilege arm of the defense, these statements will be admitted before the jury and then it will be up to the defense to discredit them.
GAYNOR: Padilla`s a bounty hunter. He`s not an attorney. I don`t think the judge will stand for that. But even if he does...
WEINTRAUB: When you are an investigator working for a defense lawyer -- as you know Mike...
GAYNOR: He wasn`t working for the lawyer.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, exactly. Stay right where you are. You`re going to have a chance to punch it out a little bit more right after the break.
If you want to argue during the commercial, you can.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I went to J. Blanchard Park, and Zenaida and her sister Samantha were there with the kids. And Zenaida held me down, and said that this was payback for what I owed her, or something like that, and handed me a list of things to say to the cops for the next 30 days. And that`s when I just lost it. I said look, I didn`t come 3,000 [bleep] miles"
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. That`s bounty hunter Leonard Padilla describing what he says Casey Anthony told her about Zanny the Nanny holding her down during the abduction, apparently.
And of course Rozzie Franco, detectives believe there is no Zanny the Nanny. They have never found any evidence that this Zenaida, who is supposedly the nanny who was taking care of the child, actually exists.
FRANCO: And Jane, remember, this is the second story that we heard about Zenaida, this nanny, Zanny the Nanny.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What do you mean by that? I`ve heard a million stories at this point about Zanny the Nanny.
FRANCO: Right but those were the two that were reported. Those are the two that are in the transcripts right now. Those are the two where she said first of all she dropped her off at Zanny the Nanny`s apartment at Sawgrass Mills and the second story was that Zanny took her and Caylee to J. Blanchard Park and then held her down and then kidnapped Caylee.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mike Gaynor...
WEINTRAUB: This is not Casey`s statement. This is third party hearsay through Leonard Padilla...
FRANCO: No, no. This is actually what Casey told the police and it`s in the transcript. This is actually what she told them.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me say this. Mike Gaynor, when you go to trial and the defendant says first, well, I dropped her off at this hour, the Sawgrass apartments, Zanny took her there. And then of course we found out that couldn`t be true because I guess we have video of the child a couple of days later attending a Father`s Day ceremony with her great grandfather, I believe, correct me if I`m wrong, Rozzie...
FRANCO: It was her grandfather.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Her grandfather.
Her story changed that oh, now Zanny abducted the child in a park and held her down.
How does the prosecution display that to the jury, and what point can they make from that?
GAYNOR: The whole thing is when you talk to somebody who happens to be a suspect in a case and they give you some kind of an alibi or an excuse you want to check it out and check it out thoroughly. And if you see inconsistencies and lies, that`s what you present to the prosecutor. And in turn the prosecutor`s going to present that to a jury or a judge if it`s only a judge hearing the case.
However, she is so inconsistent. Again, this is a strong circumstantial case. And she`s probably going to get convicted of something, whatever it may be, because of all these inconsistencies...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Can I jump in? June 15th. That`s the last video of little Caylee, look at that precious child. It`s heart-breaking.
GAYNOR: It is.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Correct me if I`m wrong, Rozzie. But Casey Anthony had said that she dropped Caylee off with Zenaida Gonzalez before this video at the Sawgrass Apartments. Then this video surfaced and the family was like essentially oh, no, that`s not the story...
FRANCO: Exactly. They said it was actually after that, just a few days after that. Right. They recanted and said that the dates had changed.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jayne Weintraub, take it away.
WEINTRAUB: Here`s the bottom line. They don`t know and they didn`t know every single date and every day of when she was seen and where it was.
Casey Anthony gave a statement, according to the police, of what she was asked and what they wanted to hear. We don`t know and I don`t know because I haven`t spoken with her. We will have to wait and see.
We do know that there were two different stories given. We don`t know why. And I think the why is the crux of the defense...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`re going to have to leave it right there. Thank you panel.
And you are watching ISSUES on HLN.