Return to Transcripts main page


Man, 22, Suspected of Killing Entire Family; Protest Planned against Plan to Breed Monkeys in Puerto Rico

Aired September 9, 2009 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, horrific new developments in that mass murder in a Georgia trailer park. Cops now say the 22-year-old man who allegedly slaughtered eight people, including seven of his own family members, beat them to death with a blunt object, one after the other. How is that possible? Cops insist he was working alone, so could the victims have been drugged first?

And breeding grounds for animal torture? A proposal monkey farm in Puerto Rico wants to take these beautiful primates from the wild, rip the babies away from their mothers and breed them for experimentation. Few people knew about this until ISSUES broke the story. Now there`s an uproar in Puerto Rico with protests and court hearings. We have to speak out for these animals, because they cannot speak for themselves.

Also, stomach-churning developments in the Jaycee Dugard kidnapping case. The nightmare escalates. Experts now say the bone found near Phillip Garrido`s house of horrors appears to be from a human being. Now the question is, where did this bone come from? How many victims could this sick and twisted rapist have?

Plus, sleeping with the enemy. Stealing billions of dollars from innocent people wasn`t the only thing Bernie Madoff was lying about. The woman who insists she was Bernie`s mistress is now speaking to ISSUES about her alleged secret sexual affair with the evil investor. She`s going to join us tonight to talk about her new book, "Madoff`s Other Secret: Love, Money, Bernie and Me."

ISSUES starts now.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Unbelievable accusations tonight against a young Georgia man whose family was bludgeoned to death. Police say he acted alone when he allegedly murdered eight people, including five -- count them -- five grown men with blunt force trauma. How is that possible?

Twenty-two-year-old Guy Heinze Jr. is accused of beating to death his own father, plus six members of his extended family. Police say each of them was beaten with a blunt object on August 29 inside their mobile home in southern Georgia. Two more victims are in critical condition, including a 3-year-old boy.

The suspect himself was the one who reported the grisly killings. Listen.


GUY HEINZE JR., MURDER SUSPECT: I just got home and my whole family`s dead!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, tell me what`s going on, sir. What...

HEINZE: I just got home from -- I was out last night. I got home just now and everybody`s dead.


HEINZE: My dad`s dead -- all the people are dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many people are there?

HEINZE: There`s like six. My whole family`s dead.


HEINZE: It looks like they`ve been beaten to death. I don`t know, man.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Later in the call, Guy Heinze Jr. pleads for help for his cousin, Michael, a 19-year-old with Down Syndrome. He said Michael was alive but, quote, "his face was smashed in." Police say they now have proof that the young man who was calling cops, calling 911, inflicted those hideous injuries himself.


CHIEF MATT DOERING, GLYNN COUNTY POLICE: Very late this afternoon, two pieces of information came forward to us. We took those two pieces of information, compared it to the whole of all the evidence collected all week long. We were satisfied that that led us to believe that Guy Heinze Jr. is a responsible person for the murders.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Police will not say what those two key pieces of evidence are, but this new information is mind-boggling. How could a single person commit all of those killings when five of the victims were adult men? Why weren`t they able to fight off their killer? Some wonder if they had been drugged.

Straight out to my fantastic expert panel: Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor and author of "And Justice for Some"; psychologist Belisa Vranich; forensic pathologist Dr. Bill Manion; Steve Kardian, former criminal investigator; and Donna Leinwand, national reporter for "USA Today."

Donna, what is the very latest?

DONNA LEINWAND, NATIONAL REPORTER, "USA TODAY": The very latest here is that Guy Heinze Jr. is charged with eight counts of murder. There`s a 3-year-old child still in the hospital in critical condition, so he`s facing an assault charge on that.

And police have said in warrants today that they were all beaten to death with a blunt object. They haven`t said exactly what the weapon is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It sounds, Dr. Bill Manion -- you`re the forensic pathologist -- when they say they found two key pieces of evidence and they matched it, that they found the murder weapons.

DR. BILL MANION, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, it`s very possible. The type of object used might have been a short pipe, something very heavy, something that could inflict massive skull fractures, subdural hematoma, render someone unconscious.

But I agree with all the speculation. It`s awfully hard to believe that five adult men could be killed in such a small location without some - - some defense being put up. But perhaps we will find defensive wounds in a few people later on.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Donna, let me go back to you as the reporter. Do we know if all these people were grouped in the home together, or could it be that he allegedly killed one of them and then somebody else walked in and the next one gets hit?

LEINWAND: Well, apparently, most of these folks were living in this three bedroom, two bath, 980 square foot mobile home, and they`re mostly members of an extended family. It`s his father, his uncle, four cousins and a cousin`s boyfriend, and the child of one of his cousins.

And the one man that was found alive was his cousin, Michael, who was -- who actually died later at the hospital, and he -- he had Down Syndrome.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. This is -- you know, I got to say, I don`t know the motive, and we`re going to get into motive in just a second. But Belisa Vranich, psychologist, the first thing that occurred to me after the fact that drugs had to be involved, is when you put that many people in close quarters, you`re going to have hostility, you`re going to have resentment, you`re going to have conflict.

And it was more than eight people, because if you include the suspect and then some of the other people like the kid brother, you`re talking a lot of people living in that tiny little trailer.

BELISA VRANICH, PSYCHOLOGIST: You`re talking about a lot of personalities, and people are going to fight. So if you have one person who can`t control it, who has some pathology, who has some very big issues in a space that small, it`s going to be a lot worse than if it were sort of dispersed over a larger amount of territory. You`re absolutely right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, the suspect`s 911 call will undoubtedly play a huge part in this case. Let`s listen to another part of the dramatic 911 call.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Did you just get home this morning?

HEINZE: Yes, I just got here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. When you came into the house, what did the house look like?

HEINZE: It looks like a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) murder scene!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I understand that, but did somebody -- did somebody tear up everything? Or did they just beat up...

HEINZE: They -- they -- people`s beat. Everybody`s dead.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, the first thing that struck me and several other people have commented on it is, well, he sounds drunk or high, and in fact, he was charged with drug possession after the slaying. I mean, this is a theme of so much of our crime coverage. I don`t know that this guy`s guilty, but I do know that drugs enable people to do monstrous things they could never, ever even consider doing sober.

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes, I mean, some of these criminals do the drugs on purpose to give themselves the chutzpah to do the crime they wouldn`t otherwise do, which is why most states don`t give you a discount, a diminished capacity discount, just because you`re wasted at the time of the crime, although some states do, like Massachusetts and shame on them. It`s poor public policy. You want to deter people from using drugs to commit a crime, not encourage it by giving discounts in the aftermath.

But you know, the thing that strikes me about this case, and it may be that drugs ended up being part of this story here. But they could have been asleep and we don`t know exactly when this happened. Three bedrooms, two or three people in each room. He goes in -- and by the way, another report said more than one weapon was used. He could have gone in and easily killed two at a time and then not have had to worry about the others ganging up on him or protecting themselves or defending the others. You know, we just don`t know yet.

But if you`re fueled with drugs, you do crazy, crazy stuff. And that wouldn`t surprise me at all if he was bombed or high or both at the time of the crime.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And it gives you bizarre, incredible strength, Steve Kardian, sometimes when you`re hopped up. You can ask any cop dealing with somebody who`s hopped up on drugs and drunk. Their -- their power to be physical becomes almost superhuman.

STEVE KARDIAN, FORMER CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Yes, it does, Jane, and we see it time and time again with instances of extreme emotional rage, where people they didn`t organize to fight against him as a collective group. So they -- he could have overpowered them over and over and over again. We can see it in Columbine, we can see it in Virginia Tech, where...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but those were weapons. Those were guns.

KARDIAN: But there was one man against 28 people.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No bullets were found in these bodies.

How did they determine it was, in fact, blunt force trauma? How do you do that, doctor?

MANION: Well, in a case like that, I`m sure x-rays would be taken of the body first, and you look for any bullets, bullet fragments. If you can`t find them and all you see are skull fractures, then you`re just left with blunt force trauma. They must have been very powerful blows to the head that caused massive fractures and subdural hematomas.

Besides the weapon being found, I would also think about the blood spatter that would occur in a case like this. He must have had splatter all over his shoes and clothes. So if he attempted to dispose of his clothing, if they found his shoes and found blood on it, that may be the second piece of evidence that is linking him to these crimes.

LEINWAND: Police have said that this is a drug involved household.


LEINWAND: You know, when he was arrested, one of the charges was possession of Darvocet, possession of marijuana. And then "The Florida Times-Union" did a very, very interesting interview with his younger brother a few days ago, in which his brother said, "Well, you know, there was -- there was some drug dealing, and his brother may have double-crossed someone."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Well, what was that thing on his ankle, Donna? We keep seeing this video of him pointing to something on his ankle. Do you have any idea? It looks like a GPS monitoring device...

LEINWAND: Well, actually -- actually, when he was arrested right after the 911 call, right after he reported the murders, he was taken to jail and charged with those charges of tampering with evidence and lying to police and the two drug charges.

He was released on bond, and part of the conditions of his release was that he was to wear an ankle monitor and stay in his house. And he actually was released from jail, went to his grandmother`s house and was there about 90 minutes before he was arrested again on the murder charges.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Fascinating stuff. All right. We`re going to talk motive when we come back. More brutal details on this mass murder in a second.

We`re taking your calls, as well. Give me a holler on this case: 1- 877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297.

And Bernie Madoff`s other secret. The woman who says she was his mistress. She says she had an affair with the crooked investor, the Ponzi schemer, the evil mastermind. She`s talking to us, to ISSUES tonight about the relationship with this man who stole billions.

But first, what would possess a 22-year-old man to kill his dad and the rest of his family, beating them to death one by one? That`s what the police allege, anyway. Listen to the suspect`s kid brother.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want something that`s real convincing. I want a motive, you know. What did my brother gain from this? My brother didn`t gain nothing from this. He became losing his -- almost his whole family. And who would want to do that?




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were a very close-knit family. They stayed together. They were very -- they were very sweet and outgoing. I don`t understand why this could have happened to them.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: A friend of murder suspect Guy Heinze Jr. Police say the 22-year-old is solely responsible for a massacre inside his family`s mobile home. Eight people, including the suspect`s own dad, bludgeoned to death. My question: how could one man beat all those people to death and why?

We`re going to debate the motive in just a moment but first, phone lines lighting up. Renee, Florida, your question or thought, ma`am.

CALLER: Yes, ma`am, it`s an honor to speak to you. My problem with it is, I live in Atlantic Beach. We get the local news. We`ve been watching this.


CALLER: And what`s happened is he was arrested that day. It was on the news. For the drug possession, tampering with evidence, taking the gun out of the house, OK? He had no bruises, no cuts, nothing. I don`t care if they were all on heroin. There`s no way this guy could have beat eight people to death without any -- any wounds.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Renee, you make a very good point. We`re looking at him right now leaving after the massacre, and he doesn`t look like he`s got cuts on his face. Steve Kardian, how do you explain that?

KARDIAN: Jane, again, through the extreme emotional rage that was displayed in that trailer, one man conceivably could have caused that much damage. When you`re faced with that type of rage, people, they freeze. They don`t know how to react. They don`t know how to respond. And we`re going to see likely defensive weapons -- defensive injuries, I should say, and it can be done. It can be done. It has been done.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I just think that you would see some kind of cuts on his face or his hands. I think the caller made a good point.

Let`s talk motive. Did the murders have anything to do with the recent lawsuit? Days before he was murdered, Guy Heinze Sr., the suspect`s dad, told his family he had just won a $25,000 settlement. The lawsuit was over damage to his mobile home. Heinze Sr. had not gotten the cash yet, because the ruling was under appeal.

So did his son, the alleged killer, think Dad had gotten all this money and want the money?

The suspect`s kid brother has another theory about what led to the murders. He said, quote, "There was drug involvement in the house, and I think somebody ripped somebody off and somebody needed to get their money back. Maybe somebody in the house double-crossed someone. It could have been my brother, who double-crossed somebody, and it could have been part of his fault somebody came there and did this." He makes it sound like there were a lot of suspicious people in and out of this home.

But Belisa Vranich, my feeling is when you have that level of rage directed at family members, there is something deeper. There is a deeper hatred and resentment of your own family if, in fact, this guy beat his own family to death. That`s personal. That`s not about money.

VRANICH: That is, that`s personal, and it goes back possibly even generations. There must be something there that has been bothering him and has been brewing, maybe ten, 20, 22 years. You`re right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Everybody debate the issue. I want to know what you think. Wendy Murphy, what could have caused this horror story?

MURPHY: I think there`s no question he was enraged, you know. Duh. All those dead people.

The police say they have got matched evidence. It`s likely fingerprints, DNA, you know, the weapon. I mean, they have no doubt they got the right guy.

I think it`s silly that his lawyer is saying he wasn`t involved and they`re going to build up this plan B suspect who was some other drug dealer who was mad at the family. Please.

Here`s the thing. If this guy was so rageful he wanted to kill everybody, he was going to plan it. That`s why I think it`s likely they were asleep. And if you want to go in with a pipe or two pipes and start beating the hell out of people and killing them and that`s your plan, and you`re so angry, you can keep doing it.

Remember, Jane, you said this isn`t a gun, an automatic weapon where you go "ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch" and everybody dies. You have to go in, whack, whack, kill, go to the other room, do the same thing. That rage is not just festering. It is so all over you, you can`t stop yourself. There`s something going on there.

And I`m going to say this. This is a complete guess. I bet that either he owes them money or they owed him money for whatever drug dealing was going on there, and either they kicked him out of the house or said, "We disown you. Get lost," because that`s the feeling I get. This guy felt dumped, deserted, hated, whatever it was. This was his entire family saying, "Get lost," and he said, "No. I`ll take care of you."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy, I think -- I think you`ve got a great theory there. We`re going to go to David in Florida, who has some thoughts of his own.

David, your question or thought.

CALLER: My thought, as I told your -- one of your people, the same thing Wendy said. They were probably asleep. That`s the only scenario I can come up with, where four grownups wouldn`t try to defend themselves or like someone had said early on in an earlier CNN show, try to climb out the window. He caught them when they were sleeping.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, wait a second. Steve Kardian -- thank you, caller. I think it`s a good point. I know I wake up when I hear screaming, OK? In my house, they`re always rehearsing plays. Sometimes I hear, "Give me the knife," and I wake up out of a dead sleep and I realize, oh, they`re rehearsing another play.

But when it`s real, you wake up, and you do something about it. You run out of the house; you flee. I would flee or try to help people, but I wouldn`t just say, "Oh, yes, I`m going to hit the snooze button on my alarm."

KARDIAN: You`re running from an assailant, though, not a relative. You wouldn`t expect your relative to be doing this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But if they`re doing it, I would know it very quickly. Go ahead.

KARDIAN: Listen, this is bottom line. This was fueled, more than likely, by drugs, by money, by being spurred by a family member. And some sort of event occurred in his life that caused that man to go under extreme rage and commit these crimes. And it`s interesting that Chief Doering is employing the need-to-know rule here, and he`s keeping all this information very close to the vest.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Got to wrap it up. Thank you to my fantastic panel.

A call to arms in Puerto Rico. A new proposal to breed monkeys for testing and experimentation. This is a barbaric ritual, in my opinion. And we`re going to talk about it on ISSUES, next.

Could Phillip Garrido have more victims? There`s a bone. New developments. We`ll tell you about it.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is horrendous. Plans to build a massive monkey farm in Puerto Rico. A foreign company wants to breed monkeys by the thousands and sell the babies to labs to be experimented on. I broke this story here on ISSUES in June. It has sparked a huge opposition movement in Puerto Rico.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Many in the island, including ourselves, found out that this is being built in the southern part of the area in a coastal town, because we saw it on your show. We live here. We didn`t even know this was going on.

We already started our investigations, and we are just appalled at what we have found.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are in contract with the other (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on the island to start an investigation on how they got the permits.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And as part of the protests, this PETA billboard just went up in Puerto Rico. I think it says it all.

Now a major lawsuit in the works, alleging proponents of the facility downplayed the huge environmental impact it will have. Protesters already swarming the streets.

And there will be more this Friday morning, when a major court hearing takes place in Guayama, Puerto Rico, the town where they want to build this facility.

Joining me now, Dr. Hope Verdozian from the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine. And joining us by phone, Puerto Rican Senator Melinda Romero.

Senator Romero, Puerto Rico is known as the island of enchantment. Its natural beauty is its most important asset. In your opinion, how could this proposed facility hurt Puerto Rico`s environment?

SEN. MELINDA ROMERO, PUERTO (via phone): Well, I think that first of all, we have to recognize that the proposed facility is trying to bring a species that is one of the most detrimental species on earth. And it affects immensely agriculture and all the beautiful parts of the island where they`re intending to establish this farm.

Unfortunately, a lot of people, including myself, didn`t know about the proposed facility until it was too late. It was under construction. But we do have many, many laws in effect that would prohibit the introduction of these species into Puerto Rico, which is not natural habitat for this species.

So we are working very hard. There is great opposition in the creation of this farm in Puerto Rico. And I think that at the end run, we will be successful and we will not allow this to happen in Puerto Rico, because we need to insert ourselves in the future, not in the past. And animal cruelty is just not one thing that Puerto Ricans can tolerate.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The weak argument for animal testing is it could help humans, but recent reports in the "Journal of the American Medical Association" and the "British Medical Journal" say experimenting on primates does not always advance medical research. The tests consistently fail to predict safety and effectiveness of drugs in humans.

Doctor Verdozian, what kind of testing could these monkeys be exposed to if this facility is not stopped?

HOPE VERDOZIAN, PHYSICIANS COMMITTEE FOR RESPONSIBLE MEDICINE: These monkeys could be exposed to all forms of testing: toxicological testing, cosmetics testing. We really don`t have a clear idea of what these monkeys will be used for.

But as you mentioned, the use of these monkeys in experimentation is clearly a step backwards. All the science is pointing to the fact that we really need to move away from the use of primates in toxicological testing and in other forms of research.

In fact, a study that was just published in the past couple of years has demonstrated that, despite the fact that more than 80 vaccines against HIV that were tested and proved safe and effective in primates...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re going to have to leave it right there. But I tell you what, thank you to our guests.

The protest, again, set for this Friday morning in Guayama. There`s also going to be a hearing. We`re going to stay on top of this story because the monkeys cannot defend themselves.

Next, Phillip Garrido`s house of horrors. Coming up.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Stomach-churning developments in the Jaycee Dugard kidnapping case. The nightmare escalates. Experts now say the bone found near Phillip Garrido`s house of horrors appears to be from a human being. Now the question becomes what human did this come from?

And sleeping with the enemy, stealing billions of dollars from innocent people wasn`t the only lie that Bernie Madoff was living. The woman who insists she was his mistress is here to talk to ISSUES about her alleged secret sexual affair with the evil investor.

But first, a gruesome discovery leads to possible new clues about monster Phillip Garrido, who allegedly kidnapped, raped and impregnated a young Jaycee Dugard. Investigators now say they believe a bone shard found on the property next door to Garrido`s home is quote, "probably human." They`re sending it off to the crime lab, where they hope for enough DNA to create a profile.

But will there be enough there for cops to break the cold cases of ten slain prostitutes or solve the murder of a 15-year-old girl in 1998, or link Garrido to the fate of several other girls snatched from almost the same area, almost 20 years ago. We will investigate just who this bone fragment that was just identified as being probably human could belong to.

Meantime, an ex-pal of Garrido`s who claims they played together in a rock band back in the `70s is speaking out about his former friend to RadarOnline.


EDDIE LOEBS, PHILLIP GARRIDO`S FORMER FRIEND: He just (BLEEP) for doing that and I`m glad that he`s finally getting what he deserves.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s just the tip of the iceberg. You will not believe what else that guy, that former friend, had to say and you know what I think.

Back to my fantastic panel: Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor and author of "And Justice for Some."

Some are saying well, this might not be anything, cops are downplaying it. Hey, it`s likely a human bone found near a place where a sicko rapist sex offender kept a woman for almost two decades and fathered children with her. Isn`t this a potentially explosive development?

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR & AUTHOR: Yes, well, yes. The guy was an admitted predator and it`s a human bone, so it`s a potentially huge development. And the good news is, cops know the names and will have the DNA through the parents or siblings of the women who are reportedly dead or missing and that child so they can actually do direct testing, assuming they have enough in the bone and they can often get marrow even decades later to do sufficient testing, and that`s good.

You know, let me say one thing about Jaycee Dugard and how that might be connected, because when kids are kidnapped and then they become, you know, so terrified that they don`t leave and a lot of people are saying why didn`t she just leave. One of the things guys like this do, they`ll kill animals, people, in front of the child and we know she was threatened so they`ll say, "I`m not kidding when I say I will kill you, if you leave. Look what I just did to this here person."

So it wouldn`t be surprising to me if he had killed other people just because of the creep he is but also as part of his strategy to keep her there in his backyard living like an animal.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Now, we have some pretty scary possibilities as I was working up this list of who could it be. It really turned my stomach to imagine some of these hypotheticals.

Investigators who believe the bone fragment is likely human say it could be from a native American burial ground, it may not be connected at all to the Garrido case, but what are the other possibilities? You have 13-year-old Ilene Misheloff, who vanished in 1989 on her way to a skating lesson. You have 9-year-old Michaela Garecht, abducted from a supermarket in 1988, amongst several girls who went missing from that area. There is also the 1998 murder of 15-year-old Lisa Norrell, pictured here on website. Let`s not forget the spate of prostitute murders in the 1990s, ten women brutally slain in and around the area.

Then there`s this very sick theory, I would like to get my panel to comment on it. This was raised by an expert in criminal behavior. Let`s put it in the form of a hypothetical question.

Jaycee Dugard, had she given birth to a baby boy, would someone like Garrido who is partial to girls possibly have killed the child? This question was raised because Jaycee had two daughters over 18 years and hypothetically could have had other children during that time.

Let`s go to Steve Kardian.

STEVE KARDIAN, DIRECTOR, DEFEND UNIVERSITY: Jane, you know, I really hope that it`s one of the before-mentioned girls that you said or the fact that this might be a child that was born to Jaycee. But I`m not giving a lot of credibility here that they only found the fragment, that they didn`t unearth anything additional and that they gave up the scene soon after finding that fragment.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So Dr. Bill Manion, the idea that they just found one little piece of bone but they didn`t find other bones to go with it, we remember the tragic Caylee Anthony case where her bones were scattered over a yard and they found some here, some here, some here. What significance do you make out of the fact that they just found this one bone fragment?

DR. BILL MANION, ASST. MEDICAL EXAMINER, BURLINGTON CO., NEW JERSEY: Well, it could mean that he murdered the person and dismembered the person there, then disposed of the body and just by accident, left a few bone fragments in the ground.

But I didn`t know whether or not cadaver dogs had been through that area, and if they had given up the scene. I guess the cadaver dogs have checked and they just can`t find any other bones.

So if this is human bone and it`s not Native American, then this person was murdered there, dismembered, and their bones were disposed of some other way.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I agree with you, Dr. Bill. I`m not sure I agree with Steve. I`ve covered many cases where all there was left was a tiny little bone fragment. Some horrific cases where a woman was murdered and then put in a fire pit and set on fire and the only thing detectives found to connect her death to the person who killed her was a tiny little bone fragment buried in a fire pit.

Steve Kardian, that`s why I don`t buy your argument.

KARDIAN: Well, Jane, as I said, I hope that that`s the case, but in this case, I think that Phillip was a crazy, sick individual. I don`t think he was stupid. I think he was an off-site predator, disposed of his bodies elsewhere so that he wouldn`t be detected.

He went 18 years and perpetrated this crime against this young girl. So I don`t think he was that stupid; crazy, sick, disturbed, absolutely.

MURPHY: It sounds -- he had a little girl in his backyard for 18 years and he would go hiding bones? He wasn`t even hiding his kidnap victim or the babies he impregnated her with are you kidding?

I think it`s very possible that weather conditions and just opportunities to move the parts to different places would have been the reason. He lived in that home for awhile. He took care of the house. He lived in a shed in the backyard. What`s he doing living in a shed next to the place where a dead person`s bones are found?

That`s not just a Native American likelihood, although it could be a Native American bone. That`s really creepy. It suggests that this guy...

KARDIAN: The whole thing is creepy.

MURPHY: There`s something going on in the home next door.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what, I think Belisa Vranich, you`re the psychologist, but I think we underestimate the capacity for evil time and time again, because our imagination cannot conceive of something so horrific. We say oh, it couldn`t have happened, then we find out guess what, there`s some sicko, some sick serial killer like the BTK or any number that we can mention that actually do things that we find incomprehensible in our brains.

BELISA VRANICH, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: The idea he might have killed someone in front of the girls in order to keep them fearful, keep them within his control, is very, very possible. That`s something you are absolutely correct, that they will do, is harm animals in front of them and say this is what I will do to you if you try to leave. So it`s very possible that that was the case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. We know serial killers start with animals. We have all heard that.

A guy who says he played in a band with Phillip Garrido in the late 1970s spoke to RadarOnline and made a jaw-dropping claim about Garrido`s alleged drug use. Listen to this one.


LOEBS: He had a full length mirror that he took off the door of the motel that he was staying at, and he had, from what I remember, two or three lines, three or four feet long, of cocaine with a pile of rocks at the end of them.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Garrido`s use of illicit drugs well-established in a letter asking for a sentence reduction in his Nevada kidnapping and rape conviction. Garrido blamed his sexual misbehavior on smoking pot, taking LSD, snorting coke and using prescription drugs.

Wendy Murphy, time and time again, it comes back to the capacity for evil that occurs when somebody becomes a drug addict.

MURPHY: You know, I`m going to rephrase what you just said, Jane. We talked about this at the beginning of the show with the guy who killed or allegedly killed eight of his family members, right? And oh, but he may have been on drugs.

Here`s the problem. Garrido may well have been on LSD when he did all sorts of terrible things. That`s not a reason to give him a discount, much less 20 years on parole.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nobody`s saying that but we have to understand, Wendy, we have to try to understand where this sickness is coming from so that we can prevent it.

MURPHY: We can understand it when he`s in prison. We don`t let him out for that. That`s what I`m saying out here Jane.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: But maybe we need to start really doing drug prevention in schools. Every story we cover on this show practically is about somebody hopped up on drugs doing something incomprehensible. Are we just going to lock them all up and wait for the next crime?

MURPHY: I understand, but you don`t do prevention after the crime. You do prevention for the people who haven`t yet hurt anyone. Once they don`t do their prevention well and they use drugs as an excuse to give themselves the power to do the crime, you don`t give them a discount. If anything, you ramp up the punishment so that other people don`t do what they did and beg for a discount. Garrido got a 40-year discount because he was a dope head.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think we`re in agreement. I think we should do both, lock them up and teach prevention about drugs.

We have been talking about the drug issue in the Garrido case and in the first story we covered. It`s national recovery month. If you`re in recovery, you`re invited. It`s A&E`s recovery rally and march over the Brooklyn Bridge. I will be mistress of ceremonies. Join me and 10,000 others Saturday, September 12th.

I talk about my struggle to get sober in my new book, called "I Want." I write about how everything in my life changed after I put down my last drink more than 14 years ago. It`s a shocker, all right.

To order my book, just go to Look for the order section. If you`re battling drugs, booze, sugar, food, whatever addiction or know somebody who is, this book could really help you get inside the mind of addiction.

Thank you, wonderful panel.

Coming up, Jon Gosselin is speaking out for the first time on TV since his divorce papers were filed and it is ugly. Revealing stuff about his marriage you will not believe.

Then we`re going to talk to the woman who says she`s Bernie Madoff`s former mistress. But he ripped her off, too. You won`t believe this.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Coming up in just a minute, the woman who says she was Bernie Madoff`s mistress, lover, whatever, we`ll let her define the terms. She`s with us and she`s spilling the beans in her new book.

Bit first, "Top of the Block" tonight.

Jon Gosselin goes on the offense. In his first solo TV interview, the reality star sat down with ABC`s "Good Morning America" and he did not hold back.


JON GOSSELIN, "JON & KATE PLUS 8": She has her (INAUDIBLE) and I have my (INAUDIBLE). I can`t sit on the sofa with that woman. I can`t sit with someone right now that I despise.


GOSSELIN: I despise because she`s not speaking from the heart. Please, the stuff you tell me in private should be the stuff you tell me on TV.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Despise. That`s fierce. The 32-year-old`s frustrations apparent as he made one shocking allegation after another. Jon says he was verbally abused by Kate and that she was the one who first made the move to end their marriage.

In another truly shocking moment, Jon said he is now with his soulmate, Haley Glassman, who he says he loves more than he ever loved Kate. Ouch. Hell have no fury like a man scorned.

Kate released a statement to ABC saying quote, "While I certainly have a very different perception of how our marriage dissolved, for the sake of my children, I maintain that I`m not going to go into the details or aspects I believe should remain private," end quote.

Here`s a little bit of advice for Mr. and Mrs. Gosselin. How about you both stop talking? Ok. Your reality has become quite the show but sadly for you both, not in the way you originally intended.

That is tonight`s "Top of the Block".

He stole an estimated $50 billion, leaving thousands of trusted investors and friends dead broke. Bernie Madoff betrayed his associates, his neighbors, even charities, even his friends.


LAURA STEIN, MADOFF VICTIM: Bernard Madoff is like some little maggot that crawled out under a rock and managed to have a brain enough to do something that injured a number of people. I can`t waste time on him.

RONNIE SUE AMBROSINO, MADOFF VICTIM: The man has proven that he`s obviously got no conscience. He`s taken money from his best friend. He`s taken money from his sister, his employees. The only thing I would like to know and again, I don`t think I`d believe it, is who else is involved and where is my money.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Bernie`s disloyalty and deception knew no bounds but was his own family, even his much maligned wife, Ruth -- there she is with those trademark glasses -- also victims?

Sheryl Weinstein says she had a secret steamy affair with Bernie for 21 years. She says for a year and a half, they were sex partners.

Guess what? He ruined her life, too, wiping out her life savings, too. Plus, she worked for a charity -- he cleaned that out, too.

The woman who says she made love to Bernie, the betrayer, is now trying to make some money back by spilling all the dirty details in her new book called "Madoff`s Other Secret: Love, money, Bernie and me."

Madoff will get a chance to read the juicy tell-all in prison. Sheryl is sending him his own very special copy. I`m sure it`s got a little signature there and a little insert where you send him a special message.

Sheryl joins us now along with my expert panel: attorney Wendy Murphy, psychologist Belisa Vranich.

Sheryl, first of all, I want to congratulate you on your courage for talking about all this. I know it has to be difficult. I know it`s uncomfortable. But it`s something I feel you needed to speak out about for a variety of reasons.

Give us the variety of reasons that you decided you needed to talk about your liaison with Bernie and how it affected your relationship with your husband when he found out.

SHERYL WEINSTEIN, BERNIE MADOFF`S FORMER MISTRESS: Well, Jane, it was a very difficult thing when I first found out that we had lost all of our money; my sons, my in-laws, my parents, everybody`s money.

I can`t begin to tell you the amount of guilt I felt and especially since it was my responsibility. I was the person responsible in my family for taking care of the money. And then on top of this, to feel that this person who for 21 years, we were friends, I considered him a friend, and the betrayal not only a friend, that he was a lover for part of the time, was just unbelievable. I went to a very dark place. I had very dark feelings at that time.


WEINSTEIN: I would just like to call them dark. I have a child. I like to call them dark. But they were very overwhelming.

And I tried to find a little bit of light to grab on to, and the light that I grabbed on to was the fact that maybe I could make some of this better by telling my story, which I felt was a unique story, that I knew him as a friend for 21 years.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But you did have a relationship with him.

WEINSTEIN: Oh, yes. Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tell us about your love affair, your hooking up, whatever you want to call it.

WEINSTEIN: We had a love affair for about a year and a half after knowing each other for about five years. It was -- it was during a very stressful time in my life, and he showered me over those five years with a lot of attention and a lot of just good feelings, and I`m not -- I`m ashamed of it. I`m embarrassed by it that I had this weakness and consequently, it ended up hurting a lot of people.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, you had to tell your husband not only, hey, we`ve lost everything, but I had an affair with a guy who robbed us blind. How was that?

WEINSTEIN: It was a very surreal period of time. He took it well. You know, he took it well, but it was very painful and it`s still very painful and it`s extraordinarily painful coming out with the book even. But you know, people say to me well, how could you do this and I can`t think how I couldn`t try to help my family.

It`s not a matter of money for jewels or vacations. It`s survival.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hang in there right there.

We`re going to be back in one second. You can ask her a question, 1- 877-JVM-SAYS; what do you want to know?



JOSEPH COTCHETT, MADOFF VICTIMS` ATTORNEY: The guy clearly loves his wife. I have no doubt in my mind as I sit here today that there may have been some siphoning of money off to his wife.

He wants to protect her, surely. I mean, this is a committed guy. They`ve been married some 40 years or more. I think there`s a lot of love there. I think he wants to protect her, sure.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That was the attorney for Madoff`s victim. We`re talking to the woman who says she had a long-term affair with Bernie Madoff.

Sheryl Weinstein, again, congratulations on your courage to be honest and revealing your secrets.

Everybody wants to know, do you think Ruth, Bernie`s wife, knew about the Ponzi scheme? That is the big question on everybody`s mind.

WEINSTEIN: I think Ruth -- I don`t know -- I think Ruth chose to look away.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So she kind of knew but didn`t want to know.

WEINSTEIN: Yes, I -- that`s my opinion.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right Wendy Murphy, you got a question for Sheryl Weinstein?

MURPHY: Yes, I do.

Sheryl, first of all, thank you. Because I know this was hard but anything that can be done to bring some shame on this guy makes me happy, given the harm he`s done. People are not going to get their money back.

And I just want you to thank you for putting in the part about his small penis, because I really got -- if you`ll forgive me that little bit of pleasure. Thank you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok, wait, now I`m going to have jump in.

VRANICH: Sheryl, did you say that?

MURPHY: I don`t know but I did have a legitimate question for her. I wondered if there was any pillow talk about any of the stuff he was doing with money and I don`t mean revealing crimes. But pillow talks can be a very revealing moment. Was there anything about his relationship with you where you said...


MURPHY: ...oh, now that I look back on it, you know that, meant something?

WEINSTEIN: No, there really wasn`t. I don`t know what the psychologist would call it, but he was true to form in every situation.

Certainly, if there was anything I would have suspected, I wouldn`t have left anybody holding the bag, per se, of losing all their money.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And your own money.

Belisa Vranich this guy -- Bernie manipulated everybody. SEC investigators were totally under his sway. What would you like to ask Sheryl Weinstein?

VRANICH: I would like to ask Sheryl, if part of the point of her book was to help people understand that with a con artist like this, with a pathological liar, it includes everyone that there is no loyalty to anybody; that everyone is prey to him and whatever he`s trying to get from people.

Was that something that you are hoping to teach?

WEINSTEIN: Yes, well, in my statement to the court at his sentencing I basically said that his only need was to feed whatever his needs were without regard to anything else; that he was like a beast like that and he just consumed for his own needs.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. It just boggles my mind that he had an affair with you and he ripped you off. It`s like he didn`t really -- it`s almost -- it`s a socio-pathological -- it`s evidence of a socio-pathological nature that even the person that you believe he was in love with you and he still ripped you off of everything that you own.

WEINSTEIN: I think he was an equal opportunity destroyer. That`s my other phrase for him; that nobody, nobody was safe from him, relatives, anybody, nobody. It was -- it was all about Bernie and you know, feeding the beast.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Well, again, congratulations on your honesty. They say you`re only as sick as your secrets. You got a big one off your chest. And we congratulate you. I know it`s got to be tough but...

WEINSTEIN: Thank you.


WEINSTEIN: Thank you so much.