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ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL
Lab Technician Arrested in Yale Student`s Murder
Aired September 17, 2009 - 19:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, is this the face of a killer? Seismic developments in the Annie Le murder case. Cops have now arrested and charged a Yale lab technician with her murder. Raymond Clark is accused of strangling this beautiful bride to be, then stuffing her body inside a wall.
Even more stunning, new reports claim Clark sent Annie Le a text message asking her to come to the lab the last day she was seen alive. What`s behind this brutal killing? And why did one of Clark`s ex- girlfriends call the cops when she tried to break up with him?
And from innocent victim to cold-blooded villain. A Hofstra University student who claims she was tied up and brutally raped by five men in a dormitory bathroom, now admits her entire horrific accusation was a hoax. The so-called gang rape was actually consensual sex, and some of the young men she accused said they never even had sex with her.
Not only did this girl try to ruin the lives of these young men; she betrayed genuine rape victims whose lives have been destroyed. Should she now be the one to face charges? We`ll debate.
Plus, the nightmare continues. More bones found near Phillip Garrido`s house of horrors. This monster already accused of raping and kidnapping Jaycee Dugard for more than 18 years. Now cops are searching for a possible connection between this rapist and two other girls who have been missing more than two decades. How many more victims could be out there?
ISSUES starts now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, fast-breaking developments in the grisly strangulation murder of brilliant and beautiful bride-to-be Annie Le. Cops say they have their man, 24-year-old Raymond Clark. He is the technician who worked as an assistant to researchers like Annie at the animal testing lab at Yale University.
Check this out. A frightening photo, and I mean scary, of Raymond Clark and his girlfriend splashed on the cover of today`s "New York Post." Take a look at that picture. He`s red-faced and wearing horns.
Clark said very little at his arraignment, just hours ago. He did not issue a plea.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Raymond Clark III, will come to identify themselves.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Two things before we get started. First, Mr. Clark, I read you your rights downstairs earlier in the presence of your attorneys. You understood those rights.
RAYMOND CLARK, ACCUSED OF MURDER: Yes, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Cops say they have 300 pieces of evidence, including a pair of bloody surgical gloves.
ABC News reports that Clark sent a text message to Annie on September 8, the day of the murder, requesting a meeting to discuss cleanliness in the mice cages. This isn`t the first we`ve heard of Clark`s fastidious nature when it came to Annie`s lab protocol. I wonder if the suspect fancied himself as lord of the lab. Was this custodial worker trying to assert his authority over Annie, the doctoral student?
Cops described the crime as a case of workplace violence. What the heck does that mean?
Meantime, listen to what a medical student who worked in Clark`s lab told the CBS "Early Show."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He did such a good job of hiding any sign of nervousness or anything out of the ordinary when I was in the room with him alone on Friday night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: He`s saying that he saw Clark after the murder and he seemed not nervous.
Tonight`s big issue: the blame game. As prosecutors try to bring Annie Le`s alleged murder to justice, has Yale already begun to spin the story? I want to hear from you.
Straight out to my expert panel: Michael Cardoza, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor; Judge Karen Mills Francis, host of "Judge Karen" and former Miami-Dade County court judge; Curtis Sliwa, founder of the Guardian Angels; Sherry Gaba, psychotherapist. Conner Reardon, who went to high school with Raymond Clark, joins me by phone. And we`re going to start off with Mary Snow, CNN correspondent on the ground at the police station in New Haven, Connecticut.
Mary, what is the very latest?
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jane, Raymond Clark tonight is in a maximum security prison north of here. This after his arrest shortly after 8 a.m. this morning. Police taking him into custody, where he was staying last night at a hotel about 30 minutes outside of New Haven. He was arraigned today.
Police saying because this was a sealed arrest warrant, they declined to come out with more details about his arrest, holding him on $3 million bond.
What the police chief did say about the relationship between Annie Le and Raymond Clark was that it was not a romantic relationship, calling it as you just mentioned, this was a workplace -- a crime of workplace violence. And really did not go into details about the exchanges that they had, since they worked in the same lab building.
Their relationship was summed up this way. He was a lab technician who cleaned cages for laboratory mice that were used in that lab. She, a Ph.D. student who did research in that lab -- Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we talked a little bit yesterday, extensively, actually, about a potential culture clash between these two. He, a high school graduate who had a lot of relatives who worked in the same facility, in that same lab. Twenty-four, the same age as the victim. He`s engaged to be married. She was set to be married.
A lot of similarities but a lot of differences. She was a doctoral student. He, a high school graduate doing menial work.
Let me ask you a couple of questions. Just yes or no, quickies. What do you know about extensive scratch marks on his body? And what do you know about published reports that the magnetic swipe card shows that he swiped at least ten times in the hours surrounding her death?
SNOW: The magnetic swipe card, "The Hartford Courant" reported that that is one of ways that police zeroed in on him, that they followed the computerized swipes of his I.D. card and her I.D. card.
And police, the police chief, I asked him about that today. He wouldn`t comment on those reports but as you remember, Jane, a couple of days ago, the president of Yale was saying -- telling people that this investigation had been very narrow because there were very few people gaining access to this restricted area.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you, Mary Snow, for a wonderful report, as always, on a really terrible subject.
I want to go now to Conner Reardon, a former buddy of Raymond Clark, the defendant you`re looking at right now.
Conner, first of all, thank you for joining us. I know this has to be tough for you. But the entire world is curious about the psychology of this young man. What was your reaction when you heard he was arrested in connection with Annie Le`s murder?
CONNER REARDON, FORMER FRIEND OF RAYMOND CLARK: It was a pretty shocking thing to hear. And obviously, it was -- it was sad. I was really sad to hear it and awfully surprised. I certainly haven`t wrapped my head around it yet. And I don`t know if I`ll ever really do that, if in fact, the whole thing does play out and he`s convicted.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, you said you played high school sports. Did he show any propensity towards violence, toward controlling behavior in high school?
REARDON: No. He didn`t. I mean, I would say that every decent baseball player I ever played with showed a little bit of a temper. Ray, not more than most.
As for his relationships with women or the way that he was off the field, I really can`t speak to that. But I can say that when I was in high school, I wasn`t aware of anything like that. There was nothing I ever saw in Ray that would have led me to believe that something like this was -- was a possibility, even of the most remote sort.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, now we have to say that we`ve got some other information that kind of conflicts with what you say. Not to say that you`re lying. I totally believe you 100 percent. But I think sometimes people present different faces to different people.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Raymond Clark allegedly had a propensity for violence dating back to his high school days in Branford, Connecticut. According to a 2003 police report, cops were called to the school in the wake of a dispute with his then-girlfriend.
Quote, "She stated that she had been having a sexual relationship with him and that, at one time, he did force her to have sex with him." Now, no charges were ever filed. The relationship continued afterwards.
Still, after Clark`s name surfaced in this case, the same high school ex wrote that she was in total utter shock, on her Facebook page, but she went on to say, "I feel like I`m 16 all over again. It`s just bringing everything back."
So Sherry Gaba, you`re the psychotherapist. Does this establish some sort of pattern of behavior that...
SHERRY GABA, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Oh, absolutely.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... he allegedly forced this girlfriend who never pressed charges?
GABA: I think this is obsessive love, absolutely. Unrequited love. I mean, come on. He was a member of the Asian awareness club when he was in high school. He was taking, you know, certain population to Chinatown. He obviously had an obsession with her. We don`t know this for a fact, but everything leads that way.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you`re saying this membership in the Asian awareness club is a sign that he -- the victim, Vietnamese American. You`re saying way back in high school he was obsessed with Asian women?
GABA: That`s what it sounds like to me. There`s also a couple other things that seem really strange. He was engaged. The wedding wasn`t until 2011. So I don`t know. Looks like there`s obviously a commitment issue going on here. That`s one issue, I think. These are things to look at. This is very odd.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. It`s all very odd. What do you make, Michael Cardoza, of the fact that he did not issue a plea? There is another hearing on October 6, and we are learning that he has switched or been switched from a private attorney to two public defenders. What does it tell you, Mike?
MICHAEL CARDOZA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, No. 1, the attorneys want to take a look at the complaint that`s filed against him. But it looks like they didn`t enter a plea because if he`s switching attorneys, those attorneys want to come in and play catch-up. So that doesn`t surprise me that they put a plea off. Next time in court, more than likely, he will enter his plea of not guilty.
In the meantime, the attorneys will be collecting the discovery in the case to see exactly what the prosecution has toward proving him guilty.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`re going to have more on the brutal murder of Annie Le in just a moment. We`re also taking your calls on this. We want to hear what you think: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.
A college co-ed claims she was brutally gang-raped. The details of the story were horrifying. Well, guess what? It was a story. She now admits it was all made up. We are going to talk tonight on ISSUES to one of the young men who was accused whose life was nearly destroyed by this lying woman.
But first, why would anyone want to kill Annie Le? Cops have their suspect. We still don`t have a motive. But we`ve got a lot of theories and a lot of deduction to do. Hang in. We`re going to do it next. Police are not saying very much.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF JAMES LEWIS, NEW HAVEN, CONNECTICUT, POLICE: I think it`s important to note this is not about urban crime. it`s not about university crime. It`s not about domestic crime. But an issue of workplace violence. Which is becoming a growing concern around the country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD LEVIN, YALE UNIVERSITY PRESIDENT: Nothing in the history of his employment here gave any indication that his involvement in such a crime might be possible. What happened here could have happened anywhere. It says more about the dark side of the human soul than it does about anything else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight`s big issue: is there a blame game about to explode in the Annie Le murder case? That was the president of Yale University, talking about this sickening crime, but it took place on his campus. Is he spinning right now, saying it could have happened anywhere?
Others might argue the conditions, for example, at the Yale animal testing lab were a factor in Annie`s strangulation. This would not have happened at, let`s say, the makeup counter at Bloomingdale`s.
There are 75 cameras outside that lab building, yet reportedly few, if any, inside. Why? My experience as a reporter leads me to believe -- this is just my opinion -- it`s because animal testing is highly controversial because of the suffering of the animals. When videotape does get leaked to the media, it can and has created an uproar. I`ve covered those stories. Hence, no cameras in the animal testing lab, where this tragedy unfolded.
Personally, I think there should be video cameras in there. Shine a light on it. Why hide it? Had cameras been there, there could have been a different outcome.
Curtis Sliwa, Guardian Angels, very few murders are committed on camera.
CURTIS SLIWA, FOUNDER, GUARDIAN ANGELS: And in fact, Jane, I never heard that before: a crime of workplace violence. Remember, the police chief said it`s not a crime of domestic violence, not a crime of urban violence, not a crime of collegiate violence. A crime of workplace violence.
Hell, you know what this is. This is hunters again stalking women. And women, when they don`t do what the stalker, the hunter, wants, end up becoming room temperature. How many times do we see this? Women under siege.
KAREN MILLS FRANCIS, HOST, "JUDGE KAREN": I totally -- I totally disagree.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Judge Karen.
FRANCIS: No. I totally disagree. On the Justice Department Web site, they state that workplace murder is the fastest growing category of murder in the United States. This is not a guy that was in love with her. He wasn`t...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: How do you know?
FRANCIS: ... stalking her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: He sent her a text, according to ABC News, that day, saying, "Come here, little girl. I want to talk to you."
FRANCIS: Because he was planning on killing her. And guess what? If they had had cameras in the laboratory and he was hell-bent on killing her, he would have found another place to kill her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, please. How many cameras -- how many murders are committed on camera, Michael Cardoza?
CARDOZA: I`ll tell you what. As much security as they had there, they had to use the pass key card to get into the place. This guy didn`t plan this murder. All evidence points to there must have been some disagreement between them that escalated into the emotion where he killed her.
Come on. If he`s going to plan this, he`s going to do it there with the pass key, with the cameras outside? There`s no way that happened. This had to be a spur-of-the-moment killing.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what? If stupid was a defense, there would be nobody in jail, OK?
CARDOZA: No question about it. But that doesn`t mean he planned it. All evidence is against that, and you know that.
CARDOZA: It makes no sense. They could get a first-degree murder conviction for a different reason.
FRANCIS (?): We don`t know what the evidence is yet because the arrest warrants are sealed.
CARDOZA: We know she was strangled.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to -- I want to offer a theory.
GABA: We also know that he sent a text saying that he didn`t like the way she was, you know, keeping her -- keeping the place clean. Is it possible...
CARDOZA: Yes, but come on. He didn`t walk in there to kill her. No way that happened.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what? All right. Excuse me. Hang on.
GABA: He could be a very obsessive-compulsive individual, absolutely.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me offer my theory. Let me start out by saying he hasn`t been convicted. He hasn`t even entered a plea. He deserves the presumption of innocence in a court of law.
But here`s my theory. Did Clark view himself as lord of the lab? I`m trying to step inside his mind. He worked there since 2004. His sister, his fiancee, his brother-in-law worked there. He was described by one neighbor as controlling, by someone else as officious, always scolding people about wearing their booties.
So was his mentality that of "I essentially own this lab"? And was there an element of culture clash between the townies, those who live in New Haven -- he`s a high school graduate -- and those elite members of this famous Ivy League institution such as Annie Le, who are headed for bigger and better things? Let`s face it. Was the real issue that he wanted -- he felt powerless and he wanted some power over a female...
GABA: Right. Right.
FRANCIS: I absolutely agree. I think that there was a lot of rage. I think that he was enraged that she -- maybe she dissed him. I heard she was a tenacious, very bright woman and maybe that just really bothered him. You know, that`s where that cultural clash probably came in. He said, "You know what? You`re not listening to me. She`s not doing what I want her to do," and so there you have it.
CARDOZA: Does anybody here believe that he walked into that laboratory intending to kill her that night? Does anybody believe that?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`m going to ask our caller. Adrienne, from Texas.
SLIWA: I do. I do.
CARDOZA: You`re wrong.
CALLER: Hi, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Your question or thought, let`s go to the caller, please.
CALLER: Hi, Jane. My question is he, they`re saying had an administrative/janitorial position in the lab. Well, I know I don`t exchange my cell phone number with the janitors and the administrative staff where I work. So to me, that would indicate that they had at least some type of a personal relationship or friendship, if he had her cell phone number.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brilliant, Adrienne. Judge Karen?
FRANCIS: Very good. I think that`s very smart. I hadn`t thought of that, because what Yale officials said is that they didn`t know each other, they just passed each other in the hallway, as though they had no stronger relationship than that.
But Jane, I believe that what happened in the lab that day was a culmination of his own personal inadequacy. Here he is 24 years old, working cleaning up rat poop in a laboratory at an Ivy League school. I mean, Yale described his job as custodial. He was a custodian.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hang on, expert panel. Stay right where you are. We`re going to come back in one moment.
New bones dug up near Phillip Garrido`s house of horrors. How many more victims could there be out there?
But first, why was Annie Le murdered?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has no prior record (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What does the state say?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Strong case for the state. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) We ask that the bond remains as set.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: A strong case according to the state. They say they have a mountain of circumstantial and physical evidence: 300 items, e- mails, bloody clothing, latex gloves, scratch marks on the suspect. The "Hartford Courant" reports, quote, "significant electronic evidence from magnetic swipe cards."
And I personally am wondering why it took them so long to arrest him. Remember, they took his DNA, and then let him go. And he went to a hotel. And, then I guess they don`t say that, but it could be that they got the DNA results back, and that`s why they went in and arrested him.
Sheeba, Illinois, your question or thought?
CALLER: Hi, Jane. Glad to speak to you. My thought and question is could she have taken -- and I mentioned this last night to my husband -- could she have taken a mouse or a rat out of its cage and spilled some of its bedding or its droppings, and he got ticked off because he had already cleaned that area? And he had maybe warned her about this before?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sheeba, thank you for that.
Sherry Gaba, psychotherapist, we need one right now.
GABA: What is the question?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, her question is, could she have done something? In other words, you`re saying he was obsessed with her. He was a member of the Asian-American -- or the Asian awareness club, that there was a report that he texted her to come over, and who knows what was in his mind, if anything. He`s not convicted.
But could it have been like something spontaneous that she did that sparked his rage that had been bottled up?
GABA: Absolutely. That`s what I was saying earlier. I mean, it`s quite possible that he had it for her. She dissed him. He felt, you know, inferior to her. Here she is, a Yale college student and he`s a custodial person, and he just, you know, couldn`t take it anymore. And that was it.
I don`t know. I wasn`t there. But I do believe that there was a lot of rage. You don`t -- you don`t asphyxiate somebody the way he did if it wasn`t rage.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right. It takes two to five minutes.
CARDOZA: That`s what I was going to point out. And that`s why they might, if they can prove he did it with the circumstantial evidence, the defensive wounds, get a first-degree murder conviction, because I remember when I prosecuted and you had strangulation. I would take a head of a mannequin and I would say, "You want to see how much time he had to think about this?"
You put your hands around the neck of the mannequin, and you stand there for four to five minutes and go, "That`s enough time to premeditate a murder, even though it might have started with rage." That`s why it could be first-degree murder.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Curtis, go for it.
SLIWA: Jane, I`m going nuts here. You`re not buying this -- this guy is so anal he`s going to strangle somebody because there`s mouse poops on the floor?
CARDOZA: Stranger things have happened.
SLIWA: This guy had an obsession with her. Oh, come on.
FRANCIS: Give us a legitimate -- give us a legitimate reason why he would strangle her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let Curtis talk. Let Curtis talk.
SLIWA: This is a crime of obsession. He knew she was getting married in a few days. He wanted to snack (ph) on her. He comes on to her and uses that as an excuse to get together. She says, "No, no." Then he strangles her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Judge Karen, the last word. Ten seconds.
FRANCIS: Strangulation is a crime of power. I think he wanted to cut her down to size. He might have called her there to talk about the rat poop or a cage that she left open, but I think that he felt inferior to her superiority by being a Yale student, about to get married, very smart. And he was a nobody.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We have to leave it right there. Thank you, fantastic panel.
A young woman claims she was tied up and gang-raped by five men. Now we know she lied. We`re going to talk to one of the young men that she almost destroyed.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: From innocent victim to cold-blooded villain: a Hofstra University student who claims she was tied up and brutally raped by five men in a dormitory bathroom now admits her entire horrific accusation was made up. The so-called gang rape was actually consensual sex. And some of the young men say they didn`t even have sex with her.
Plus, more bones have been found near Phillip Garrido`s house of horrors. This monster is already accused of raping and kidnapping Jaycee Dugard for more than 18 years. Now cops are searching for a possible connection between this rapist and two other girls who have been missing for more than two decades.
Tonight, a slap in the face to rape victims everywhere: police say a freshman at Hofstra University who claimed she was gang-raped was lying. The woman 18-year-old woman told police these young men tied her up and took turns raping her inside a dorm bathroom. Here they are moments after being released from jail, smiling, happy, after their accuser`s sick lies unraveled.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATHLEEN RICE, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, NASSAU COUNTY, NEW YORK: Prosecutors almost immediately identified significant inconsistencies as she told them her story. The turning point was when she was confronted with the fact that there may exist a video of some or all of the incident. The woman began to reveal the truth about what happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So why didn`t the cops pick up on those inconsistencies? The D.A.`s office did. Instead, just two, two, two days after the woman made her false report, police released the names and the photos of these men parading their mug shots in front of the media.
We have to ask here on ISSUES tonight why were police so quick to slam these particular guys? Is it a class or even a race issue, perhaps?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STALIN FELIPE, FALSELY ACCUSED OF RAPE: We all grew up in an all- women household. We respect women. A lot of our aunts, cousins, girlfriends, they`re all girls. We know how to treat a lady. The thing they said with the rope, come on. That`s disgusting. That`s what we were looked at as, disgusting men.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The woman could face criminal charges but she hasn`t so far. You know, this is really outrageous. What she has done is to discredit and devalue real genuine rape victims. And she could have destroyed the lives of all of these five young men.
Let me welcome back my fantastic panel. Also delighted that joining me is one of the accused, Kevin Taveras and his attorney, Victor Daly- Rivera.
Kevin, first of all, I want to say right out I`m happy for you. I`m happy for you. I have to say -- swear to God -- when I saw your picture in the perp walk before it was learned that she was lying, I said to myself, "You know what? These boys look so young and innocent." Guess what, you are young and innocent.
What was your reaction when you were arrested on this phony charge?
KEVIN TAVERAS, FALSELY ACCUSED OF RAPE: I was really scared. I couldn`t believe what was basically going through my mind. It was like a big nightmare and I thought I was going to do time for something I didn`t do. I was going to be punished for something that I did not do.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And did you get this feeling kind of horror I`m living a nightmare but my eyes are open?
TAVERAS: Yes, it was a nightmare that you can`t wake up from. It was devastating. I was there just letting the clock tick and tick.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Well, look at you. You`re an articulate, well- dressed young man and I wish you the best in life. I hope that this is just a tiny little blip or maybe you learned something from it and you become a lawyer.
Let`s talk to your lawyer. Victor Daly-Rivera, the first thing that occurred to me when I heard about this is, "Wait a second. Did they have the DNA back? Did they look? Did the cops look at this woman to se if she had marks from being tied up on her?"
Why was it that the prosecutors were so able to so quickly realize that this woman was full of you know what, yet the cops decided we`re going to hold a news conference and put out the photos of all these young men?
VICTOR DALY-RIVERA, ATTORNEY FOR KEVIN TAVERAS: Yes. I was really, really upset at the fact that they went and like you said, they paraded their photos in front of the media. They held this press conference. They released all these terrible details about this alleged rape that never took place. And you know, they went off half-cocked, basically.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is there a lawsuit here?
DALY-RIVERA: I`m sorry? The lawsuit is a possibility. We`re examining that possibility.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Who would be sued?
DALY-RIVERA: Well, I would imagine that the defendants would be the complainant herself.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The woman. Let`s speak in basic English here. The woman and ...
DALY-RIVERA: The woman and possibly the police department.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Hang in there, guys. Judge Karen Mills- Francis, this is mind-boggling to me because I personally am outraged because we did this story. And we played the cops saying they did this, they did that, they did this, they tied her up, they all raped her, it sounded horrific.
I said it was disgusting. We didn`t use the word "allegedly."
KAREN MILLS-FRANCIS, HOST JUDGE KAREN: I have never seen the police charge anybody for sexual battery/rape so fast as the police charged these boys in this case. Two days later, she had no bruises. She had no injuries. There wasn`t enough time for a DNA to come back and even if a DNA did come back, there was no proof that it was nonconsensual.
So it seems to me there was a rush to judgment. They threw these guys in jail and then had the nerve to have a press conference.
They didn`t know who this victim was. They didn`t know whether or not she was credible. I think it`s absolutely outrageous what happened to these boys.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what reminds me is if you compare and contrast with how the suspect in the Annie Le case was treated...
MILLS-FRANCIS: Ivy leaguer.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: They took his DNA and then let him go and they...
MILLS-FRANCIS: Let him go.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: They insisted he was just a person of interest. He went to a hotel, he stayed at the hotel and then possibly when the DNA came back they arrest him.
MILLS-FRANCIS: You know what, Jane, this is a Hofstra student. Hofstra is a very prestigious old university. All these boys went to another school. So I guess...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: One was a Hofstra student, I think. Yes. Go ahead.
MILLS-FRANIS: Ok. I guess the four of the five went to other schools. And I guess that they believed that a Hofstra student would be telling the truth and these other guys that are not working or they`re in community college or they`re not at Hofstra, they couldn`t be believed. I believe that may be what happened here because there`s no explanation for it.
SHERRY GABA, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Excuse me. False accusations happen all the time. It`s unbelievable how often it does happen. This reminds me of domestic violence, just how vulnerable a man can be. You know, woman cries rape and look what happens. I just -- I have a feeling something was not done properly here in terms of the investigation.
MILLS-FRANCIS: The police could not have made an arrest unless there was a -- some corroborating evidence for this victim`s story. It wouldn`t have happened here.
What was the corroborating evidence? They had a videotape of this girl having sex with these boys. The videotape didn`t take two days to make. They made the videotape that night.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask a question. Victor Daly-Rivera, what is it about this story of the videotape? Did the prosecutors simply threaten her there was a videotape or did she believe them or is there actually a videotape of something?
DALY-RIVERA: There is actually a videotape of a short period of time in this encounter. And the prosecutors had not seen it, as far as I know, but they apparently did confront her with it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, Kevin, I don`t want to pry, but let me just ask you, did you have consensual sex with her?
TAVERAS: I`m sorry, I can`t comment on that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. All right. And you know what? Consensual sex isn`t illegal so I`m not judging, ok? This case makes me, you know, my head`s going to explode. When prosecutors interviewed the accuser...
GABA: And clearly she was very unstable.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... they immediately found -- immediately found inconsistencies in her story. Why weren`t police able to do the same? Here`s what they said on Tuesday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And they repeatedly entered the stall one at a time, trying to engage in different sexual activities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That wasn`t even the worst of it. They went on and on about she was tied up and they took turns. Now, if that were true, wouldn`t the woman have marks from the rope?
Did the police take DNA samples and if they did, did they wait for the results before taking this woman`s story to the media? Those are the key questions. I want to hit Victor Daly-Rivera with that. Do you know of any of this?
DALY-RIVERA: I`m not aware of anything. That was the first question I had when I was told that there was a rope involved and that she had been tied up. I wanted to see if she had rope burns, whether there was any medical evidence of her being assaulted.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Kevin, what did your mom say about all this?
TAVERAS: She was very scared. It was crazy, basically. She felt as she was imprisoned with me. My whole family was imprisoned because of this. We`re all locked in this position, being accused of something that I did not do. It was not only me that was inside, it was my whole family.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you go to college?
TAVERAS: Currently, no.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. So has this affected your life in terms of what you want to do or how you take life? I know sometimes traumas can be a positive in the sense that they say it can make you take life a lot more seriously. That certainly happened to me when I was about your age.
TAVERAS: Yes. I see this as a changing moment in my life. I do not regret anything and basically, I enjoy my freedom and the wind and the cold. I enjoy everything. I`m very happy I`m here.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. That`s beautiful. And I wish you the best of luck.
Sherri Gaba, psychotherapist, what is going on in this woman`s mind?
GABA: You know, there`s a lot of things. I mean, she could be looking for attention. She could be a borderline personality. I mean, really, she`s just acting out sexually, possibly. Just looking, really, maybe just plain malicious, trying to really hurt some people.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, if she did have consensual sex with some of these individuals, could it be that she felt self-loathing and decided instead of to look in the mirror oh, I`m going to make them the blame?
GABA: She also might have been trying to protect herself, you know. Maybe she`s got a boyfriend or a parent; she didn`t want them to find out about it so she twisted the story around. I mean, that`s possible.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Well, I`m just glad that the truth came out.
Thank you, thank God. Thank you, outstanding panel.
Coming up, Chris Brown starts his 180 days of community service. We`re going to tell you how he`s turned it into a money-making machine.
Then, cops find bones at Phillip Garrido`s house. What? Whose are they? I want to hear from you on this. 1-877-JVM SAYS; 1-877-586-7297.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: A gruesome discovery at Phillip Garrido`s house, Jaycee Dugard`s alleged abductor and rapist: what cops are doing now that they found more bones on the premises.
But first, "Top of the Block" tonight.
Chris Brown starts his 180 days of community service as a punishment for his vicious attack on Rihanna. But is he turning it into another photo op?
Take a look at him there. You be the judge. Does that look like someone who has an ounce of remorse? Sure, he may have whacked a couple of weeds but give me a break.
Take a look at this. It`s Brown`s bodyguard wearing a shirt that says "Violence -- break the cycle." that would be great except it`s the very same shirt that Brown is selling online. So it could be a shameless plug. What do you think?
I tell you what, Chris Brown, you want to make it right? Give every dollar that you earn on those T-shirt sales to a "stop domestic violence" campaign. At least that would show you really care.
Moving on, breaking news in, of all things, the Michael Jackson case. Brand new unsealed court records reveal that Katherine Jackson will get more than -- are you sitting down -- $86,000 a month to support herself and Jackson`s three kids. You think it`s enough? The money is coming from the late pop star`s estate.
Let`s just hope this high dollar payment goes toward a promising future for Michael Jr., Paris and Prince. That is tonight`s "Top of the Block."
Terrifying new discoveries at the home of rapist and alleged kidnapper, Phillip Garrido: last week, police found a bone fragment near Garrido`s home. The sheriff says that bone is probably human and then yesterday, just yesterday, cops found even more bones.
Today, cadaver dogs honed in on a very specific area of the Garrido property. Are these bones human, too? Tonight, they are being tested in a lab so we don`t know yet.
Also, the first pictures from inside the Garrido home from the day after Jaycee was found. Look at that sink. Pictures from kcra.com. It`s filth. Look at this filth. It`s a mess.
What does it say about them psychologically? All this clutter, the dirty dishes.
Then the horrifying question, could the bones just discovered belong to two little girls, Michaela Garecht and Ilene Misheloff, who were abducted more than 20 years ago? Cops armed with cadaver dogs scoured Garrido`s yard yesterday, removing ten, count them, ten truckloads of trash; searching the yard and the inside of the house for human remains, graves, even teeth.
This is nauseating. Is Phillip Garrido capable of murder? He allegedly held Jaycee Dugard captive for 18 long years and he`s accused of raping her and fathering two children by her.
Cops say Garrido probably targeted other young girls. Sharon Murch thinks her daughter, Michaela, the missing child, was one of those targeted. She spoke to CBS` "Early Show."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHARON MURCH, MICHAELA GARECHT`S MOTHER: I have heard that the neighbors reported to the police several years ago that there were girls living in the backyard at the Garrido house, and they didn`t say there were three girls living in the backyard. They said there were five. And perhaps, the older one that they saw might have been Michaela. But there are other girls that were back there and we don`t know who they were.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s my issue with this case. In 2006, somebody calls 911 to report five children are living in tents in the backyard. Cops don`t even look into that yard. Police admit they messed up big-time.
Look at this squalor where Jaycee was apparently imprisoned. Who else lived there? Is there a chance this monster knows what happened to more innocent children?
Back out to my expert panel and former police officer, Lou Palumbo. Lou, how long will it take to identify these bones and what do you make of this latest development of more bones being found although we don`t know yet if they`re human or animal?
LOU PALUMBO, FORMER POLICE OFFICER: Well, they will eventually determine if, in fact, they`re human remains. The problem simply stated, Jane, is that there probably isn`t any DNA from the other two young girls who had disappeared over a decade ago that they could match to the DNA in these bones, if they are able to derive any.
We`ve talked in circles on this case regarding Garrido. And I think one of the points we continuously look past are sentencing guidelines that need to change through legislation. If we really nipped this in the bud by not letting him out after 11 years we wouldn`t be talking about this tragedy at this point.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s a travesty that he was let out after 11 years when he had a sentence of decades and decades and they never even told the woman he raped that he was originally in jail for, and she says she was confronted by him when he got out.
I want to go to Michael Cardoza because I understand you spent an hour outside the Garrido home today?
MICHAEL CARDOZA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Today. I got to tell you, Jane, was it hot out there. It was, oh, unbelievably hot. Anyway, I watched the police work and begin to clear the property. And I talked to some of the police officers out there, and some of the news people that are covering this.
The word is that the police are willing to take the house right down to the ground to search for they can find. Look under the floors, look in the walls, do what they can and well they should in this case.
CARDOZA: By the way parenthetically going back to do we need to change our laws? The laws have changed already because in the federal system, prisoners, for example, if he were sentenced now and given 50 years he would have to serve 85 percent of that time.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And thank God for that change. Hold on.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on right there.
We`re going to continue on. You know Phillip Garrido admitted to using LSD and acid. This guy was a druggie.
This is national recovery month. I`ve also struggled with my addiction. In my new book "I Want" I reveal details of my battle with alcoholism and how I finally got sober more than 14 years ago.
You can order my recovery memoir out, it`s now on book stores or just click on cnn.com/jane and look for the order section. They say the only thing that has to change is everything and that`s exactly what happened when I sobered up. It`s a real shocker. You won`t believe some of the things that changed in my life.
Everyone, stay right where you are. We are going to have more on these new bones found at the Garrido house of horrors.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Have you lived in fear ever since?
KATHERINE CALLAWAY HALL, VICTIM OF PHILLIP GARRIDO: Yes.
KING: How many years ago was that did he get out?
HALL: He got out in `88.
KING: You`ve been living in fear now...
HALL: Absolutely. Yes.
KING: 21 years.
HALL: And especially the first five years I just knew he was hunting. I just knew he was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That was Katherine Hall, who was brutally raped by Phillip Garrido.
He went on to allegedly kidnap Jaycee Dugard. He held her for 18 long years. And I want you to take a look at these horrific, hideous photos that were taken, really, right after they were arrested; the day of their arrest showing the bathroom area as well as a living room/kitchen-type area. Look at this, it`s disgusting. I mean this is filth.
Curtis Sliwa, what does this level of filth say about a person`s mentality?
CURTIS SLIWA, FOUNDER, GUARDIAN ANGELS: Well, it means the obsession of just focusing on kids and his sexual delight. And I feel it right now in the marrow of my bone this guy snatched up those two other young girls and they have to keep digging.
But you know something? I to use Dick Cheney torture techniques on this guy, water board him. Because he`s going to use hush, hush, mush, mush. He`s not going to say anything. His wife is not going to say anything.
Please can we just torture this guy, can we water board him and extract the truth please. And save the taxpayers a lot of money.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Judge Karen Mills-Francis. Judge Karen.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead.
MILLS-FRANCIS: The system really failed these girls. This man was under the supervision of the Department of Parole at the time that Jaycee was taken. At the time these two other girls were taken.
And one thing that a lot of people don`t realize a parolee has no real constitutional rights. That means that his parole officer could come in at any time, at any hour, for any reason and inspect his premises. This man had all these tents in his backyard. What did his parole officer think he was keeping back there?
PALUMBO: Yes, but this...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead, Lou.
PALUMBO: To speak to that point you know probably what Garrido did is he dotted the I`s and crossed the t`s. For the purpose of the parole officer he accounted for everywhere he was when he was supposed to be there. No flags went up.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lou, I`ve got to jump in because these parole officers visited him and we have reports from the neighbors that Jaycee Dugard`s children were attending birthday parties in the neighborhood. So all they had to do was talk to any of the kids or any of the people in the neighborhood and they would had found out, oh...
PALUMBO: But, guys, you`re assuming that information was passed onto the parole officer. I think the first time that the parole office received information were from these two agents of the University of Southern California -- I mean, excuse me, the University of California`s Police Department, campus police department. I think that was the first time that they would get an information.
MILLS-FRANCIS: But he was a registered sex offender.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second. Let me just say something.
MILLS-FRANCIS: He was a registered sex offender. The parole officer had a duty to talk to his neighbors to make sure that he wasn`t being around children and to let his neighbors know that he wasn`t allowed to be around children.
PALUMBO: I think you need to be aware of the concentration of sex offenders in this area.
MILLS-FRANCIS: I know the concentration.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you know, Lou, do you know what they say...
PALUMBO: You have to realize -- wait, wait, wait. Hold on, guys. You have to understand something.
This is a system that is under-funded, overtaxed and overworked without the proper resources.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t buy it. I don`t buy it. All it took was common sense.
MILLS-FRANCIS: Since 1988.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Common sense.
MILLS-FRANCIS: 1988, 20 years, 20 years and they didn`t realize this man had fathered two children that were living on his property?
PALUMBO: I think unless it was something brought to their attention there`s no reason that they will start digging in to the lives...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Got to leave it right there. Fabulous panel, thank you.
You`re watching ISSUES.