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ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL

Phillips Family Divided Over Incest Claims; No Charges to be Filed against False Rape Accuser

Aired September 25, 2009 - 19:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, a family torn apart. Mackenzie Phillips back on "Oprah" again with more head-spinning claims about incestuous sex, drug addiction and rape. This time she has ammo. She`s bringing her sister, who`s now backing up Mackenzie`s claims of incest with her dad.

But other members of Mackenzie`s extended clan are lining up against her charging, "You lie!" ISSUES has exclusive information from the family of John Phillips.

And a double dose of evil: blood-soaked walls, beaten dogs and day care? A horrific dog-fighting ring busted up at, of all place, a child- care center in Illinois. What? Ten children taken out during a police raid. Cops say these poor dogs were tortured and fighting to the death, right next to a children`s swing set. Who were the sickos who thought dog fighting and day care were a good mix?

Also, reliving a long nightmare. Jaycee Dugard says she will take the stand against Phillip Garrido. She wants to testify against the monster who`s accused of holding her captive for 18 long years. This could force her to reveal every gut-wrenching and sordid sexual detail in front of the whole world, all while this poor woman is trying to rebuild her life.

Tonight`s big issue: does the criminal justice system victimize rape survivors twice?

Plus, a celebrity superstar busted for allegedly skipping out on his hotel bill. Randy Quaid and his wife arrested in Texas, accused of owing a hotel 10,000 bucks. That`s a lot of trips to the minibar.

And check out these mug shots. Quaid claims the bill is paid and says the hotel is doing this all for publicity. Who do you believe?

ISSUES starts now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Shocking and revolting accusations ignite a firestorm of a family feud. The whole world knows this by now. Mackenzie Phillips says she had sex with her own father, rock legend John Phillips. She paints a sickening picture, claiming daddy pulled her into a frightening world of drugs and forbidden sex. She reveals what she calls her darkest secrets to who else, Oprah.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MACKENZIE PHILLIPS, DAUGHTER OF SINGER JOHN PHILLIPS: I woke up that night from a blackout to find myself having sex with my own father. Your father is supposed to protect you. Your father is supposed to protect you, not (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mackenzie`s horrifying accusations are dividing her showbiz family, especially since John is dead and he cannot defend himself. Stepmom Michelle Phillips says, "You lie. Take with a grain of salt anything that`s said by somebody who had a needle in their arm for 35 years."

Mackenzie was back on "Oprah" today, but this time sister Chynna came along, who backed her up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHYNNA PHILLIPS, MACKENZIE`S SISTER: I`m proud of my sister. Am I exceedingly joyful that my family`s secret that I told maybe my therapist, my husband and very best friend in the world, know now, in a platform for everybody to know? No. It`s very upsetting.

OPRAH WINFREY, TALK SHOW HOST: So you`ve known for a while?

C. PHILLIPS: I`ve known for a long time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mackenzie`s other sister, actress Bijou Phillips, is also speaking out. She lived alone with her dad since she was 3 years old, and you will not believe what she has to say.

Are these horrific claims true? Will we ever know?

Mackenzie says she has a handful of people who know it happened. But is she trustworthy? Just last year, Mackenzie got busted for heroin and cocaine. We know addicts lie. Is she sober now?

Straight out to my fabulous panel: criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh; CNN legal analyst Lisa Bloom; psychiatrist Dr. Dale Archer; Curtis Sliwa, founder of the Guardian Angels. Also, talking only to us tonight, the widow of John Phillips, Farnaz Phillips.

Thank you so much for joining us on the phone. I understand that you did not want to be on camera but still felt you had to speak out to clear John`s name. What was your reaction when you first heard these claims? Do you believe them or not?

FARNAZ PHILLIPS, WIDOW OF JOHN PHILLIPS: Under no circumstances I believe this. I always knew John, and I always knew Mackenzie is not somebody, considering the source, Mackenzie Phillips. She already admitted to Oprah herself that she`s a liar. And...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Why do you think, if you believe that she lied -- and let`s face it, none of us know what happens behind closed doors. So nobody really is going to know, because he`s dead, and how can we verify one way or another what she`s saying? But if you believe that she is lying, why would she lie about something like this?

F. PHILLIPS: Well, she`s going through a couple of years of hard time and tough life, and she`s just putting out the book right after that. Like you said in general, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) show that it might be the anger. I can add drugs and money to it. And...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Drugs and money?

F. PHILLIPS: Yes, because she is making money. Listen to this. If you take a couple of pages out of the book that she refers to John and allegations she has against John, that book would have never been sold.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, yes, of course. I mean, the reason it`s a best-seller is that she`s saying she had sex...

F. PHILLIPS: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... with her famous father, and he shot her up and he incested her. I mean, these are horrifying claims.

F. PHILLIPS: Yes. And John cannot defend himself. That`s why I`m on the phone with you. I want to defend him and speak for him. I know John was...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How long were you married to him?

F. PHILLIPS: I was married to John for six years, and he was sober for, like, five and a half years out of it. And he was all together. He loved his family. He would do anything possible.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Was he a drug addict and an alcoholic?

F. PHILLIPS: When I was married to him, no.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But previous to that? In other words, had he sobered up? What years were you married to him?

F. PHILLIPS: I was married to him from 1995 up until 2001 when he passed. And he was...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So he finally -- he finally got sober, which is wonderful news. Did he ever say to you, "I have problems with Mackenzie. Boy, she`s trouble"? Or "Wow, something really awful happened"?

F. PHILLIPS: Hey, John was a very honest person, not like Mackenzie said he was a liar. He was never a liar. Even wrote a book about himself a long time ago, blaming himself for everything, that half of it wasn`t even him. So...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.

F. PHILLIPS: ... if he did something like that, don`t you think an honest person would put that in his book, too, to sell it? He never did that. You know, I`m 100 percent sure.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I just want to say, Farnaz, thank you for coming on our show exclusively and talking about your belief that John Phillips did not commit the incest that his daughter Mackenzie is accusing him of.

F. PHILLIPS: Yes. This is the last thing she can chew on, and she is chewing on it. I -- my problem is that -- the headache she`s causing the family. I have -- I`m very upset, and Bijou is very upset. I love Bijou. And I think it`s not right to have family divided.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And boy -- thank you, Farnaz -- this has divided the family.

Mackenzie`s sister, actress Bijou Phillip, says Mackenzie told her about the abuse, then said, "Oh, you know what? It never really happened." Bijou says, "The man who raised me would never be capable of doing such things. If he was, it is heartbreaking to me to think that my family would leave me alone with him."

That raises a very good question. Lisa Bloom, if this actually happened, should Mackenzie have made a motion to keep Bijou away from John? But Bijou says she was raised by a guy who was like Mr. Mom and was a loving, supportive father.

LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely. The problem Mackenzie Phillips has is that she is a lifelong drug addict, a serious addict. We`re talking about cocaine and heroin being shot up into her arms on a daily basis for many, many years.

That doesn`t mean her story is untrue. In my view, it probably is true. I represented a woman very much like Mackenzie Phillips when I represented sexual abuse survivors for many years, who had had a consensual adult relationship with her father. It`s absolutely devastating; it does happen.

But the way that Mackenzie Phillips has gone about this is all wrong, because she`s done it by trying to sell a book. And that means that everybody is suspicious of her motives now. She could have come out, for example -- I would have advised her, come out and be the national spokesperson for the Rape and Incest Survivor Network. Do something unpaid. Tell your story. People are more likely to believe you.

And also, likely (ph), before your father died. I mean, this is very suspicious in a lot of people`s minds and rightly so.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Dale Archer, you know, it`s so troubling, because there`s no way for us to verify. And she waited until after her father died, even though he got sober before he died.

And there`s -- this is destroying the family. Michelle Phillips says -- said all of the nieces and nephews in the Phillips family are not going to school now. They`re staying home and they`re sobbing, because she has essentially shamed the entire Phillips family. Is that something that she should have taken into consideration or not?

DR. DALE ARCHER, PSYCHIATRIST: No. I mean, look, she shamed the Phillips family, maybe so. What about what she has been living and dealing with over her entire life? There is never an easy way or a good way to be able to come forward with this. And I say bravo.

Anyway you can get this message out, this is an epidemic in America. There are women that this house...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Incest is an epidemic? I didn`t know that.

ARCHER: Absolutely. It is huge, and it`s impossible to get a number...

BLOOM: Adult incest?

ARCHER: Only if you are in the field and you treat people as a psychiatrist or a psychologist do you hear these stories time after time after time again. And the women are scared, and they`re ashamed.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but are the people that you`re hearing them from addicts, heroin addicts...

ARCHER: They`re all...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... just gotten sober less than a year ago, possibly.

BLOOM: Are these stories about adult incest? That`s a very different form.

ARCHER: All I will say -- all I will say is that it is so hard to come forward, and this is always what happens. No one believes you. They -- all the time a girl will come forward and tell the story, and the mom will support the dad...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wouldn`t it have be a better idea to go into family therapy and tell your family, "Hey..."

BLOOM: First?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: "... this is what happened to me"? Because apparently, she`s told people this in the past, but then, according to Michelle and Bijou, she took it back. And she said it didn`t happen.

ARCHER: You know, Jane, I think that you`re right. Yes, there is a good way to do it. But any way to get this out, it`s very important, and it`s not easy to do.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Got to take a break.

ARCHER: And if it took a book for her to do this, I say that`s fine. I say if this sheds a light on this problem, then that is a good thing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: More on Mackenzie Phillips in just a bit. And we`re also taking your calls on this one. Give me a holler: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1- 877-586-7297. Do you believe her?

Plus, dog fighting and day care under the same roof? We can`t even show it to you, it`s so bad. We`ll update you on the condition of some unbelievably tortured dogs.

But first, more on Mackenzie Phillips`s alleged incestuous affair with her father. Here she is back in 1996, talking about her father as her role model. Pretty creepy stuff.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

M. PHILLIPS: We have to remember that we are our children`s role models, you know. And certain role models -- my role model was my father, who had hair down his back and wearing a dress, you know, and said whatever turns you on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

M. PHILLIPS: I went to my father and I said, "Look, we need to talk about how you raped me."

And my dad said, "Raped you? Don`t you mean when we made love?"

And in that moment, I thought, "Wow, I`m really on my own here."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mackenzie Phillips on "Oprah," shocking claims from the former TV actress. She says she carried on an incestuous relationship with her dad for ten years. She writes about it in her new book, which is a best-seller, "High on Arrival."

Phone lines lighting up on this one. No surprise there. Dawn, Washington, your question or thought.

CALLER: Hey, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hi.

CALLER: Yes, I`m just calling to say I really don`t think any of this is really true. I think she is trying to make money for her book.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I think you raise an interesting point. And I want to talk about why people do things, Curtis Sliwa. I know that children of addicts and alcoholics are often extremely mad at their addict parent. So there could be various levels of motivation. It could be she wants a book. She has a TV show. But she also could have a lot of deep- seated anger.

And I just want to quote very quickly from my book, which is about growing up in an alcoholic household. "Children of alcoholics experience trauma when they grow up with a person who isn`t really present the way a sober person is. Often, these children have been traumatized by the excessive drama in the household. Rageful, weepy or detached children of alcoholics and addicts have a tendency to develop bitterness over their stilted relationship with the alcoholic or addict parent."

CURTIS SLIWA, FOUNDER, GUARDIAN ANGELS: Mad? Mad? I`d be crazy mad against this guy. This guy was a freaky-deaky guy.

We just talked about the story of Ryan O`Neil at the wake, the final viewing of Farrah Fawcett. Beautiful blond comes up, kisses him, "Hello, Ryan." And he tries to put the squeeze on her, says, "What are you doing after the wake? Me and you, we got the urge to merge?"

She says, "Ryan, it`s me, Tatum, your daughter."

Come on. Wake up, America. He admitted this, Ryan.

BLOOM: There`s a big difference between that story and this one.

SLIWA: There`s no difference. These guys believe in this "come, live and let live," laissez-faire. And look, notice what she said, what her father had said is that, "Oh, you`ve got to accept the fact that this is the kind of a lifestyle you live." Are you crazy?

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jane, I`ve got to get in here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, Mark. All right, all right. Let`s see the panel. Let`s see the panel.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mark Eiglarsh.

EIGLARSH: Thank you. Jane, ay, yi, yi.

First of all, you`ve got Dale Archer saying bravo. You`ve got Sliwa convicting him already.

Let me explain something. The only thing that we know for sure is none of us will ever know for sure whether this really happened. That`s No. 1.

And No. 2, as I tell my jurors, when I`m raising questions about someone`s credibility, there`s a difference between believability and accuracy. So even if, when you see this Oprah interview, she looks believable. It may be entirely different whether she`s accurate, whether this really did happen, or whether it was imagined in order to sell books or when she was in a drug-induced state.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think drugs is at the heart of all of this. Mackenzie talks, of course, about growing up in a crazy, drug-filled world. She says she was 10 when she was rolling joints for her dad, 13 when she was -- he was helping her shoot up at the age of 13.

She tells Oprah her dad brought her to a party where she had sex with rocker Mick Jagger -- who hasn`t responded to this, and I`m waiting to hear from him -- when she was only 18. Listen to this one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

M. PHILLIPS: So my dad walks out. Mick turns around, locks the door and looks at me. And he says, "I`ve been waiting for this since you were 10 years old."

And my dad, you know, comes back and, "That`s my daughter in there. Let her out." And we just didn`t. We ignored him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lisa Bloom, Mick Jagger hasn`t responded but, boy, he`s probably fuming across the pond, as it were.

BLOOM: Well, at least she was 18 in that allegation, so he wasn`t proposing anything that was illegal. Although it was disgusting if he knew her since she was a little girl.

Look, this is America. People are entitled to respond to allegations that smear their reputation for all of history. And this man has passed away in 2001.

Like I said, I tend to believe her, but I`m really offended at the way that she has gone about this, waiting many years after her father was gone to disclose it. The so-called witnesses who support her side are only people who she told. They didn`t see anything. They didn`t hear anything. There doesn`t seem to be any evidence.

And she`s a wealthy woman. She comes from a wealthy family.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait, wait, wait.

BLOOM: Why does she do this by way of selling a book?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second. I don`t know how wealthy she is. Maybe there`s a jealousy factor here, because the Mamas and Papas fortune hasn`t descended on her, Mark Eiglarsh.

BLOOM: That is no excuse.

EIGLARSH: That is -- that is very possible. And Lisa did point out, look, by coming out with a book, now you`ve got bias, motive, interest, all those things that should not be present if she had just come out with no interests at all.

So what I say to all of the people out there, don`t jump to conclusions because you just don`t know. And if it really did happen -- but if it did happen, Dale, she does, in fact, deserve our compassion and sympathy. But we just don`t know.

SLIWA: Whoa, whoa, whoa.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We have to wrap it up right there. I know we can talk about this forever.

SLIWA: ... here? Doesn`t anybody listen to Chynna?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s over.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, seriously, my dad was an alcoholic. And in my new recovery memoir, I write about that. In "I Want," I talk about how my own father`s alcoholism encouraged me to drink to excess, and it actually left me bitter about my relationship with him until I got sober 14 years ago. There he is. There I am. Look, we both have drinks in our hands.

He passed away, and I dedicated my book to him. You can order it. It has the story of my recovery.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The woman who wrongfully accused five men of raping her at Hofstra University will not face criminal charges. The D.A. made that announcement today.

Eighteen-year-old Danmell Ndonye was, however, ordered to get mental health treatment. Do you think? And complete 250 hours of community service. If she fails to do that, she could be charged at a later date.

Though she signed an agreement admitting she lied to police and engaged in consensual sex, these false accusations threaten to really ruin the lives of the four young men who were arrested. We actually talked to one of them on ISSUES.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN TAVERAS, STUDENT: I was scared. I couldn`t believe what was basically going through my mind. It was like a big nightmare, and I thought I was going to do time for something I didn`t do. I was going to be punished for something that I did not do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Joining me now, CNN legal analyst Lisa Bloom.

Lisa, is there a double standard here? What could and should she have been charged with?

BLOOM: Well, she could have been charged with making false statements to the police. That`s a misdemeanor.

But I applaud -- I applaud District Attorney Kathleen Rice for coming to this outcome. Our prisons are overcrowded. We are stretched beyond her budgets to pay for them. Prison is not the solution to everything. Prison is a place for violent offenders and pedophiles.

This woman is neither of those things. She made a terrible mistake; she did a horrible thing. But let her be out paying her own way for her own housing and food and do 250 hours of community service, which benefits us. We don`t have to pay for that. That`s to our benefit as the taxpayers. And get mental health treatment, which she would not get if she was behind bars. So...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I don`t know. I think sometimes the prisons are filled because of women like her making false accusations.

BLOOM: I agree. She did a terrible thing. And a lot of people do terrible things, but prison is not the answer to everything.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And she hurt women as well as men. Because women who have been raped are going to be afraid to come forward, because they`re going to fear they won`t be believed. The D.A. said her job was not just to prosecute but to find the truth. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATHLEEN RICE, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, NASSAU COUNTY, NEW YORK: Prosecutors almost immediately identified significant inconsistencies as she told them her story.

The turning point was when she was confronted with the fact that there may exist a video of some or all of the incident. The woman began to reveal the truth about what happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So Lisa, basically, as soon as the D.A. started questioning, she found the accuser`s story totally full of holes. You have to wonder why the cops didn`t make the same realization when it was so apparent to the D.A. Instead they took these kids` names and faces and put it all over the media.

BLOOM: Yes. The cops should never have done that. And I applaud Kathleen Rice on her big stance.

One of things she said, by the way, in reaching this deal is, she doesn`t want other people who are making false claims to be afraid to admit it because they`re afraid they`re going to go to jail. If you make a false claim, it`s a terrible thing. But at least if you finally admit that it was false, and we can set things right. OK, we`re not going to throw you in the slammer; we`re going to give you community service.

And by the way, if she doesn`t do her community service, she does immediately get charged with a crime under this plea deal. So I think this is a very smart plea deal. It`s got teeth. I think Kathleen Rice did just the right thing here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you convinced me. Because at first I was like, this is a big double standard. And although we fight against the war on women, and I hate violence against women, one thing I hate just as much is a phony claim that could ruin the lives of four young men.

To this day, people are calling their sisters, "Oh, you`re the sibling of the rapist." It`s just not fair.

BLOOM: No, indeed.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I just wish them the best.

All right. We`ll be back with a horrific story. Day care and dogs, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Reliving a nightmare: Jaycee Dugard says she will take the stand against Phillip Garrido. She wants to testify against the monster accused of holding her captive for 18 long years. Tonight`s big issue, does the criminal justice system victimize rape survivors twice?

Plus, a celebrity superstar busted for allegedly skipping out on his hotel bill. Randy Quaid and his wife were arrested in Texas, accused of owing a hotel $10,000. That`s a lot of trips to the mini bar.

Tonight, Jaycee Dugard`s family plots their own version of revenge on her alleged rapist Phillip Garrido. Jaycee`s step dad, Carl Probyn, says he can`t wait to write Garrido taunting letters while Garrido is locked up.

He says, quote, "I will be telling him how our family is doing. That we are at Disney World or that we are out having dinner laughing and having a wonderful time," end quote. Probyn`s life has been destroyed too. He witnessed the Garridos snatching Jaycee off the street in 1991.

Here he is just days later.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARL PROBYN, JAYCEE DUGARD`S STEPFATHER: I saw the car go up the hill. And I saw my daughter making the curve up there. All of a sudden the car dart across the road and cut her off. I saw a door open.

I jumped to my bike, I heard a scream and I pedaled and I realized I couldn`t catch him in time. I came back down and called 911.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Everybody wondered was he telling the truth at the time. This ruined that man`s life.

That`s the alleged monster right there. Convicting this guy could mean more pain and trauma for Jaycee. Can she handle be face to face with Garrido in court? Her attorney says absolutely.

Here he is on the CBS "Early Show".

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCGREGOR SCOTT, ATTORNEY FOR JAYCEE DUGARD: She very clearly understands that some very bad and terrible things were done to her and the people that committed those crimes need to be held accountable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: These pictures give you just an idea of what life was like for Jaycee for 18 long years. This filth is the tip of the iceberg.

Imagine her on the witness stand having to answer questions about what Garrido did to her and giving birth to her children when she was herself a child. How is she going to get through that?

That brings me to tonight`s big issue: are rape victims raped a second time by having to relive the nightmares on the stand giving graphic testimony about the humiliating violations? Isn`t it like being victimized all over again?

Back to my fantastic panel. Curtis Sliwa, can we even imagine what it`s going to be like if Jaycee Dugard has to take the stand and go face to face with that creep?

CURTIS SLIWA, FOUNDER, GUARDIAN ANGELS: Jane, I`ve been cross- examined many times but it pales in comparison to what this woman is going to have to go through. And I would think the defense attorney for the two monsters, Garrido and his wife, when given the opportunity to cross-examine her will say we refuse to ask any questions. We`re not going to ask any questions, we rest with this witness and let her just retire.

I realize the prosecution may have to extract from her some details that are going to prove very harmful to her psyche to have to relive it. But if the defense team would be stand up, they wouldn`t ask her any -- they wouldn`t even go there. They wouldn`t even go there. Just rest with that witness.

LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I disagree that it is harmful, Jane. And I`ll tell you why. I represented rape victims and child sexual abuse survivors for many years.

Most people think what you`re saying. It`s psychologically damaging to testify. It`s horrible; it damages you the second time.

Wrong, what my clients told me, all scared beforehand. But what they told me afterwards, 2 to 1, is that it was empowering to testify. They already lived through the worst part.

To get on the witness stand, to look that bad guy in the eye and to tell the truth about what happened and ideally to get a conviction against that person is very empowering. And they walked out of the courtroom with their head held high. Their voice would drop into an adult tone from a squeaky little girl voice they started out with because they were so scared.

I tell you, we have to dispel this notion that it`s a terrible thing to testify in the trial. It is not.

(CROSS TALK)

DAVID SCHWARTZ, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jane, the bottom line is we are still -- we still have a court system in this country. And of course Jaycee has to come to court and testify against her accuser.

Just because this is the worst of the worst -- and this really is the worst -- it doesn`t take away the fact that we still have to have a trial and he has to be proven guilty in court and the key witness in the case is clearly Jaycee. She has to testify.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is happening to so many young women. What kind of agony do these rape victims have to endure when they testify against their attackers?

Remember, Elizabeth Smart? She may be called to do exactly that soon at a mental competency hearing for one of her alleged kidnappers. A husband and wife, accused of kidnapping Smart in 2003 when she was just 14 years old so they could keep her as a plural wife; just another one of these horrific stories that ended in a miraculous rescue.

But this young girl -- now older obviously -- is going to have to testify. I don`t understand, Dale Archer, why can`t they do this on videotape? Why do they have to be in the courtroom and have to face the person who tortured them?

DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, actually, I completely agree with Lisa on this. This is very therapeutic. This is one more step to getting back to a normal life.

And let`s face it, Jaycee Dugard is a survivor. She is going to do fine with this. I have been so impressed with the fact that for 18 years she was able to come through this with her life and with her two children`s lives intact when this guy possibly could have been involved in murders or other abductions along the way. So I think Jaycee is going to be fine.

I think that Lisa is correct. This is a big, big step.

SLIWA: What the hell are you talking about? What do you mean fine? How the hell could you talk -- have you ever had to testify in court? No, you ask the questions. You`re the lawyers for...

(CROSS TALK)

SCHWARTZ: We have to preserve the sanctity of the court...

(CROSS TALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hey, I agree with Curtis. You can`t use the fine when it comes to this horrific situation. You can say that maybe we hope it`s a catharsis for her.

Now we have to move on to another gut-wrenching, horrific story. Turning now to a gruesome secret uncovered at a Chicago day care. Are you sitting down? Mutilated starving animals, bloody walls and floors, filthy syringes; all part of a horrific dog-fighting ring. And get this -- it was just steps from a child`s swing set.

Ten children were removed from the home during the raid because it was a day care center. One of three suspects is married to the day care center operator.

After these men were arrested, police discovered something even sicker. Suspect Martez Anderson`s cell phone had a video of a dog being burned to death. This is outrageous.

You`ll hear from Anderson in a moment. Police rescued nine mangled dogs from the home; four of them puppies covered in scars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF TOM DART, COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS: This is a difficult one to completely sum up given the carnage and given what you`ve seen on these poor dogs. But then when you add to it that this was going on within feet of a day care center. There was a swing set -- within less than ten feet of the swing set was a log that the dogs were chained to. It`s very unsettling to put it lightly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That little white puppy the sheriff was holding had his eye ripped out. Look at that. The helpless creature was tossed into the fight in the form of bait.

There were at least two complaints about dogs at this home in 2006 and 2007. Child welfare offices made unannounced visits. But because the dogs were locked in a garage, nothing was done. That is unacceptable.

Straight to my expert panel; joining me, animal welfare advocate Jane Garrison. Jane this is outrageous. Isn`t this a perfect example of how animal cruelty often goes hand in hand with cruelty to children? Weren`t these children put in a dangerous and horrific situation?

JANE GARRISON, ANIMAL WELFARE ADVOCATE: Absolutely. These dogs could have gotten out of that garage. They could have attacked these kids. They could have killed these kids.

Besides the dogs, I wouldn`t want kids left in a home with those sadistic individuals. Somebody who finds pleasure in setting a dog on fire and watching her burn would have no problem torturing a kid. These people should be put away for many, many years. Not only for what they did to these innocent dogs but for endangering these kids.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This case has so many sick details, but the suspect`s cell phone video of a dog being burned alive -- it`s about as bad as it gets. The suspect, Martez Anderson, hasn`t commented on the video but he had a whole lot to say about why the dogs were on death`s door. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTEZ ANDERSON, DOG FIGHTING SUSPECT: It was a few dogs in good condition and like I said, for the exception of the little puppy, he got smashed in the door; that was purely an accident. The door fell on the puppy. That`s how the dog`s eye got come out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lisa Bloom, is that the most pathetic excuse you`ve ever heard?

BLOOM: Absolutely, Jane. I`m the owner of a pit bull and a rescue dog. And I think what people fail to understand is these animals experience pain and fear and suffering just as we do. We have to stand up against dog fighting. I`m just celebrating 32 years as a vegetarian and I know you are too, Jane.

Speak out on behalf of all the animals who are in cages, who are in terrible condition as farm animals. It is horrendous across the board. What have we become? We`ve become so disconnected from other living breathing animals who experience the same fear and pain and suffering that we do. It`s just got to stop.

GARRISON: Absolutely. And Jane...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.

GARRISON: And the other thing people can do, in their own communities they should watch out for signs of dog fighting. Everyone can be the eyes and ears for these dogs. You have to watch for dogs who are chained outside or unsocialized dogs. Equipment such as treadmills or ropes or tires hanging from trees and watch for dogs who have a lot of scars on their face or people coming and going at odd hours into homes. And you need to report these people.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Curtis -- Curtis Sliwa, (INAUDIBLE) children services went there and they said, "Well, the dogs are in the garage, that`s ok." That`s outrageous to me.

SLIWA: We`re going to hear children services, they`re overwhelmed, they have too many cases. Hey, open up your eyes, go out, check the entire area. Do your job.

But you know something, Jane, did you see the smirk on Martez`s face...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, yes.

SLIWA: ...when he said...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.

SLIWA: ...oh the door hit the puppy. You like ultimate fighting Martez how about you and the pit-bull...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.

SLIWA: ...one-on-one...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.

SLIWA: ...and let the pit-bull do you in, right there in the jugular. And we`re not going to tap you out of that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, we`ve got to leave it right there. Horrific for animals, horrific for children, cruelty goes hand in hand. And thank you awesome panels.

Up next, Michael Jackson`s former friend reveals some of the pop star`s dark secrets. Did Michael really call Hitler a genius? Is that possible?

Actor Randy Quaid arrested for allegedly speaking out. Oh my God you will not believe this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Does actor Randy Quaid think he is above the law? Then why do police say he racked up a $10,000 bill and skip town? We`re going to debate it.

But first, "Top of the Block" tonight: explosive and head spinning revelations about the "King of Pop." Did Michael Jackson think Hitler was a genius?

According to a Jackson friend, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, Jackson not only felt that way, he was a 100 percent convinced. Shmuley also said Jackson considered dating best friend, Elizabeth Taylor. Sound crazy?

Well, what about this Jackson allegedly said Madonna was in love with him and jealous of his success. Why all these alleged -- excuse me, these secrets are making me sick -- sick secrets just out of the blue?

The rabbi has a book coming out and in it more than 300 hours of recorded conversations with his former friend Michael Jackson. What do you think?

That`s tonight`s "Top of the Block."

Turning now from freaky fantasies to possibly fraud, this one takes the cake, people. Actor Randy Quaid and his wife Evi arrested for -- take a look at those mug shots -- allegedly skipping out on a $10,000 bill they racked up at swanky San Ysidro Ranch in Santa Barbara. And that is one swanky ranch, people.

These photos are from the resort`s Web site.

On Monday the Santa Barbara Sheriff`s Department issued a warrant for the couple`s arrest and yesterday at a traffic stop caught on camera by, who else, TMZ, cops did a "West Texas Down" busted the couple.

It was not without incident. TMZ reports Evi was screaming and had to be wrestled to the ground. The pair tossed in the slammer. Look at that mug shot. What`s with the beard, what`s with that expression? They posted bail hours later only after a deputy drove them to get cash, $20,000 each.

It gets weirder. TMZ says Randy Quaid scrawled a letter especially for the TMZ Web site that said, quote, "Texas is a great place to be arrested. I would like to thank the sheriff and deputies for everything. It was a fabulous arrest."

He seems to think this is all a big joke.

Quaid also sent TMZ a copy of a cashier`s check made out to the ranch. You can see it right there -- $5,546 and change -- that`s what the Quaid`s said they owed.

Wait a minute, a cashier`s check for a hotel bill. Does that even make any sense?

It could be explained by a sworn statement obtained by TMZ from a cop who says, the Quaids checked into the luxury resort using bogus credit cards, furthermore, police say the bill came to a whopping $10,500.

Meantime, Randy claims it`s all just a PR stunt on the part of the inn. ISSUES called them for comment but we haven`t heard back. I want to know what you think about this cuckoo for cocoa puffs celebrity scandal. Give me a shout out right now.

Straight out to my fantastic panel: Lisa Bloom, CNN legal analyst; David Schwartz, criminal defense attorney and former New York prosecutor; Dr. Dale Archer clinical psychiatrist. And in just a moment we`re going to be joined by Mike Walters, assignment manager with TMZ.

But first David Schwartz, does Randy Quaid seem to be thumbing his nose at the law. And if so, isn`t he making matters worse for himself?

SCHWARTZ: Well, no, I don`t know if he`s making matters worse for himself. Obviously, every criminal defendant shouldn`t be speaking about the substance of the case.

But Jane, we have to remember that he has defenses. He`s got the cashier`s check and this has got to be settled in court.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And he`s got a beard. Why has he got a beard of that size?

BLOOM: It maybe...

SCHWARTZ: I have no idea...

(CROSS TALK)

BLOOM: ...maybe it`s a mistaken identity. He looks like a cross between Santa Claus and the keep-on-trucking guy.

SCHWARTZ: So -- I mean the bottom line is...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look at this expression. Look at -- oh, that`s better. But the other expression, she`s out of her mind.

BLOOM: And he`s throwing his jacket over his arm. I mean, it`s crazy.

SCHWARTZ: But we don`t know right? Come on let`s give him the benefit of the doubt, like every other criminal defendant, they`ve got defenses.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.

SCHWARTZ: The inn has their side of the story. Yes, it`s a bizarre situation but it`s got to play out.

BLOOM: It`s a great mug shot though.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, joining us now, Mike Walters, assignment manager from TMZ.

Mike, I`m hearing things on a delay so if I don`t make any sense you know why I`m hearing crazy voices in my ear. You guys got a hold of a deputy`s sworn statement that contains real shockers.

MIKE WALTERS, ASSIGNMENT MANAGER, TMZ: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tell us about this whole hotel bill and what TMZ calls a quote, "sinister plot to flee some ritzy hotel" end quote.

WALTERS: Well, this is what it explains in the documents. Basically they went to the Biltmore Hotel in Santa Barbara which is also a swanky place, used their credit card for the night. And when the manager came and said, "Hey, we can`t get authorization on this card. You have to go or give us something else."

They left there, knowing that the card didn`t work and went to the San Ysidro Ranch and tried to use that card. But because it`s Randy Quaid and his wife, they`ve been there before. They`re celebrities, I guess, they let them go in with that card.

So the intent right there, that`s the burglary. They knew it didn`t work. They went over there, over eight days they racked over $10,000 of bills.

And every day they make an excuse, like there`s a FedEx package coming with the credit card. Don`t worry we`ll pay you next week. I`ll get my check book.

They made up all these excuses and finally when they were like, that`s it, we`re done. They went up to tell them they had to get out and they had bolted.

So they gathered all this information including -- when they were investigating -- $17,000 here in the Bel-Air hotel in L.A. So they had been doing this all along. That`s why they were charged with the three felonies.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re saying that there`s a pattern here allegedly.

WALTERS: Right, that`s the way it looks when they investigated. I`m only telling you what the sworn statement says, obviously allegedly. But that`s what it says is that they got all of this stuff.

You know how they found out the two hotels? This is great. The collection agency, the Santa Barbara Hotel went to Alliance Collections and they said, "That`s funny. We have the same couple down in L.A. doing the same thing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold it right there.

We`ll be right back with more cuckoo for cocoa puffs behavior. Look at that beard. We`re going to analyze it when we come right back -- and that expression.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RANDY QUAID, ACTOR: The benefit of American democracy and, I mean that`s what this country is all about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes, American democracy. Let us remind everyone that it`s not cool to dine and ditch in the U.S. of A.

Vicki, Ontario, you`re question or thought ma`am.

VICKI, ONTARIO: I`m getting such a laugh out of this story.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s funny.

VICKI: He`s in full "Cousin Eddie" mode. The only thing missing from the arrest had to be the dog from the Vacation movies.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. You know, actually it`s -- let`s analyzed the mug shots for a second. She looks like in a couple of these pictures. By the way we invite you -- the Quaids -- Mr. and Mrs. Quaid to come on any time and tell your side of the story.

They seem to be making a mockery out of all of this. Look at that face. That face is very defiant and kind of like, I`m a merry prankster and this is a performance art piece.

Dr. Dale Archer, you want to try to analyze these two?

ARCHER: Well, I mean, it is just one more example of celebrities who think they are doing a hotel a favor by going there to stay. So why should they have to pay when their presence should be enough?

BLOOM: I think this whole thing is a P.R. stunt.

SCHWARTZ: Oh, I don`t agree with that at all.

We`re a nation of laws. If they went in to this hotel and they stole $17,000 from one hotel and $10,000 from another, I don`t think it had anything to do with them having this priority in life. I think they blatantly stole the money and obviously they were arrested for it.

On the other hand they have defenses.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me see the panel. Let me see the panel. Who wants to talk?

BLOOM: I do.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s see; Eenie, Minnie, mini, mo. Ok. Go ahead, Lisa.

BLOOM: I think this whole thing is a publicity stunt planned by them. They`re having way too much fun. I mean, can I do my whole interview Jane in profile like Randy Quaid`s mug shot.

This is ridiculous. They have planned these mug shots. They`re outside in front of the court house putting up crazy signs and brown paper on their truck. They are trying to get all the publicity -- and guess what -- they got it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they could also get a jail sentence. But listen, when successful actors like Randy Quaid get in trouble over alleged money matters. It doesn`t seem to add up.

Here he is in the 1988 classic "Caddie Shack".

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUAID: You certainly made it very clear how your legal system works, Mr. Young. I would like to explain a little bit about the Peter Blunt system. You see, I don`t go in for lawsuits and motions or any of that legal stuff...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, on a serious note, David Schwartz, Quaid sued Focus Features, the producers of Brokeback Mountain -- one of my favorite movies -- for at least $10 million. He claimed they tricked him into working cheaply. Money is an issue for him. It`s obviously some kind of problem.

SCHWARTZ: Yes. If money is an issue, maybe he once had money and now money is an issue. You know, it`s a blatant theft. If he`s guilty of what he`s being accused of, the bottom line is it`s a blatant theft.

I`m not so sure it`s a publicity stunt. There may be psychological issues here as well. They need to be looked into.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mike, I`ll give you the last word on all of this.

WALTER: This guy was in "Caddie Shack" and "National Lampoon`s Vacation." Let him keep the money.

(CROSS TALK)

BLOOM: He has enough to get a haircut if he goes to jail. And that could be a good thing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I just think that a lot of these celebrities think, "I should be paid for showing up somewhere."

ARCHER: Absolutely.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And they have a sense of entitlement that makes you crazy.

ARCHER: That`s what it is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s it for us. Thank you fabulous panel.

You`re watching ISSUES on CNN.

END

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