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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES

H1N1 Flu Fears, Vaccine Concerns; Landmark Hate Crime Bill; Interview with Pervez Musharraf; Children in Immigration Limbo

Aired October 22, 2009 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening, we'll have more on "LATINOS IN AMERICA."

Tonight a Latina in limbo: She entered the country to find her mom. She ended up in a federal detention camp for illegal immigrant kids. We've got an exclusive look inside that camp and how kids there live. That's later on the program tonight.

Also, breaking news on H1N1. Mandatory vaccinations for health care workers is stopped in New York; fears of the vaccine are widespread. We're "Digging Deeper" with Lorna Patterson, a nurse who has sued not to be forced to get the vaccine, and Dr. Jorge Rodriguez on whether the vaccine is safe for you and your kids.

Also tonight, new action in Washington aimed at stopping crimes like this, a gay man brutally beaten. Is expanding hate crimes law simple justice for prosecuting minorities or would it simply punish bad thoughts along with the bad acts? "Crime & Punishment" just ahead.

First up, the breaking news: New York's governor lifting an order that all health care workers get flu shots. We'll hear shortly from one of the nurses who took the state to court over it. That said the H1N1 swine flu is spreading; cases are rising and concerns growing.

Long lines at clinics that have the vaccine like this one just outside of Washington tell one story. And new polling backs it up; 52 percent telling "The Washington Post" they worry that someone in their household will come down with the flu.

So they're lining up and finding the vaccine in short supply, several weeks in fact behind schedule. At the same time, only 52 percent of parents say they plan to have their kids vaccinated. This as researchers from Purdue University predict the outbreak may be peaking right now and California's governor today orders the release of 25 million facemasks to protect doctors and nurses as California does not have enough vaccine.

So a lot happening and happening fast. Tom Foreman is following it all - Tom.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey Anderson, for all the reasons you mentioned, I think tonight we really are at a critical point on this disease. We have that breaking news out of New York. What we know is the governor says health care workers there will not be forced to take the vaccine, not because some of them objected and they did, but because there's not enough of it anyway.

And that really frames the coast to coast worrying paranoia we're seeing right now. Some people worry they won't get the vaccine. Others are just as worried that they will.

So let's talk about supply and demand first. Federal health officials said today that one in five kids had swine flu this month; seven percent of adults, too. So it's no wonder that some clinics have seen overwhelming crowds.

Look at this, looking for vaccinations, which is the second part of this problem. There's just nowhere near as much vaccine as health officials predicted there would be. New York says the Fed promised 120 million doses nationwide by the end of October. Now they're talking about a quarter of that much.

The numbers move around depending on where you look and who you're talking to. But clearly it's not nearly enough. The feds predict plenty in November. But Anderson, of course, that's not helping much this week.

COOPER: Tom, the government was warning people to get ready for an outbreak for months now. Did officials not heed their own advice in terms of getting out these vaccines up to speed? Or did it take -- was it more difficult?

FOREMAN: Yes a good question, Anderson. Health officials said they tried but a variety of reports say first the vaccine would not grow as fast as they had hoped. Then they had vaccine makers that were strained by the simultaneous demand for regular flu vaccine. And then there were distribution issues.

All in all, it seems like very little has gone according to plan. And you can bet there will be some inquires about that once the immediate threat passes -- Anderson.

COOPER: Tom, you mentioned the people who do not want the vaccine. Where does that movement stand tonight?

FOREMAN: Oh yes, it's still going strong. In polls, more than four out of 10 Americans say they're afraid this vaccine could cause health problems itself or even death.

Some fear it was rushed into production too quickly. Some just don't trust the vaccines in general. And some cite the swine flu vaccine program back in 1976 which was stopped after serious health problems and some fatalities occurred in people who had received the shot.

And if that is not enough to scare folks, UPI reports nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan has said he thinks the vaccine is designed to kill people to reduce the population. The feds say no way. It is safe, a lot safer than taking a chance with H1N1. Get vaccinated. That is their message.

But Anderson, as you point out, others with a very different take on all this.

COOPER: All right, Tom. Thanks.

Let's "Dig Deeper" now with Lorna Patterson, who is one of three nurses who sued the State of New York to block mandatory vaccinations for health care workers; also with us and taking your questions later in the program Dr. Jorge Rodriguez. I appreciate both of you for being with us.

Lorna, let's start with you. We just heard from Tom's report, New York State has suspended mandatory flu shots for health care workers not because they think it's wrong to force the vaccination but to ensure those who need more -- most receive it and that was not for the reason you had hoped.

Are you satisfied by Governor Paterson's decision?

LORNA PATTERSON, REGISTERED NURSE: Not totally because this still leaves us open for a mandation (ph) to come along later.

COOPER: And why do you not want to get this vaccine?

PATTERSON: Well, starting last summer when the swine flu outbreak first hit in the United States, many of us were going and investigating the swine flu virus itself. And everything that we have seen up until this time put out from the CDC and other health sources have been that this is a relatively mild virus that it limits itself to three to seven day period of being ill. The person generally gets better without medical care and may, in fact, have a degree of immunity to the disease after having it.

COOPER: So you're worried the vaccine is worse than the actual or has potential to be worse?

PATTERSON: Yes.

COOPER: Or I mean you don't trust this vaccine?

PATTERSON: Absolutely.

COOPER: Dr. Rodriguez, what about that? What do you say to folks who just don't trust the vaccine?

DR. JORGE RODRIGUEZ, INTERNIST: Well, I think that's unfortunate. And it sends, I think, a very disturbing message. I think some of the information that she quoted is correct. It can be a mild vaccine in older people who do have immunity to it.

But to younger people, they are dying at greater rates than ever before. So to be more afraid of a potentially life-threatening vaccine that in studies has not shown to have these effects, I think it is very unfortunate. And can send a very bad message.

COOPER: I want to talk to both of you more. We've got to take a short break. Ms. Patterson and Dr. Rodriguez stay there. I want to know what you think at home. Also join the live chat now under way at AC360.com. And send us your questions about the vaccine and about the flu to same address also on Twitter@AndersonCooper or facebook.com/AndersonCooper360.

Later, "Crime & Punishment," Congress passes hate crime legislation; a civil rights victory says supporters others argue it can turn what you're thinking into a federal crime. We'll take about the issue ahead.

Dick Cheney goes to war with the White House again over the war in Afghanistan. He says the president is dithering. The White House shoots back. Both sides tonight, and the facts behind what's happening on the ground in Afghanistan.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: We're back with Americans worrying about the H1N1 flu yet also worried about the vaccine and what to do to stay safe. The breaking news: New York's governor lifting an order that all health care workers be vaccinated in New York.

To some the debate is academic; supplies of the vaccine are running short.

Back now with Lorna Patterson and Dr. Jorge Rodriguez and your questions. So you're a nurse. You say you don't trust the vaccine. You don't want it for yourself. Would you tell parents not to get their kids vaccinated?

PATTERSON: Absolutely not. And that's not been my position or any of the people that I have been associated with regarding our lawsuit.

We believe in educating people on prevention, of transmitting infection. The good hand washing and good etiquette when you do have someone sick at home and when you're out in public.

But we encourage people to do a good check on this before they make that decision for their child. There's plenty of Internet information available for them to look into to make a decision that they feel is best for them.

And that's what we had asked for ourselves.

COOPER: But...

PATTERSON: That we could make the decision that we felt was best for us.

COOPER: But if a patient comes to you as a nurse and asks you, should I get my child vaccinated, what do you tell them? I mean, there's a lot of false information on the Internet, too. So I'm just worried about people kind of just randomly going to the Internet. Lorna? What do you tell people?

PATTERSON: I'm still here.

COOPER: OK. I lost IFB with Lorna.

Dr. Rodriguez, she is saying ok, people should go to the Internet. It seems like there's a lot of false information floating out on the Internet, a lot of rumors. Should parents get their kids vaccinated?

RODRIGUEZ: I think parents should definitely get their kids vaccinated. There are a lot of criteria that a knowledgeable physician should follow.

And I agree with you, Anderson, sometimes when we search the Internet, we search for what we want to find. So, therefore, if you're afraid, you will feed into those reports that show the negative. That's why a physician needs to be the one that's questioned and give the information, hopefully in a very clear way to the parent for them to make the final decision.

COOPER: A 198 schools, Dr. Rodriguez, are now closed across the country. That's a large number of schools in the United States to be closed all at once based on this flu.

RODRIGUEZ: Right.

COOPER: Does it -- does the vaccine work better if more kids get vaccinated? I mean, if some parents are opting out and choosing not to vaccinate their kids, does that put other kids at risk?

RODRIGUEZ: Yes, absolutely. So the spread of the vaccine would minimize if more people were vaccinated and the statistic you gave is astounding. A week ago, it was 80 schools or 88. Now it's in the 190s.

Also the more -- excuse me, the more virus that there are in a population replicating, the greater the chance of that virus mutating. So you have to think of a community health, a sort of a national health, not just one individual.

COOPER: So, Lorna, I know we're back. We have your IFB. I just want to re-ask this question that I was trying to get at. You -- you're saying if a patient comes to you and asks you should I vaccinate my child, I mean, what do you tell them? Would you vaccinate your own child, I'm not sure if you have kids, but if you did, would you vaccinate them?

PATTERSON: I would not vaccinate my child. But again...

COOPER: Why is that?

PATTERSON: I don't - because I believe that the risks outweigh the benefit.

COOPER: And what do you see is the risks of the vaccine? PATTERSON: The side effects of flu vaccines alone can at some situations be very devastating. They're not well-documented. But they are there. There's also a lot of additives that are placed into vaccines that are of concern.

And I have been in health care for 28 years. I've done ten years in the ER. I've done hospital nursing for 23 of that 28 years and public health nursing in home for five of those years. I have never had the flu. I am exposed to the flu and H1N1 daily at my workplace. I have seen many people with it already this year and co-workers that have had it and their children as well.

COOPER: OK.

PATTERSON: So I am familiar with it.

COOPER: Dr. Rodriguez, what about that?

RODRIGUEZ: Well, -- first of all, in the time that she's been practicing, which is wonderful, she has to have noticed that the facts that there are less vaccinations we thought we'd eradicate it for example polio and whooping cough and it opinions like that that have caused a resurgence of this.

Now, there's lots of information about flu vaccines. They're given every year. And there's a small amount of potential side effects from it. Yes, but the risks are definitely less than the benefits that can be obtained from vaccinating, especially children.

COOPER: We're getting a bunch of viewer questions. I want to just toss them out there. Cynthia asked, "I was wondering if you do get it, does it make you immune to getting it again, more prone to getting it again or no effect one way or the other?" Dr. Rodriguez?

RODRIGUEZ: If you get the -- excuse me, the flu, with H1N1, assuming that it doesn't mutate, then you probably won't get it again because you do have antibodies against the flu.

COOPER: I appreciate both of your perspectives. Thank you for being on the program. Nurse Lorna Patterson, thank you and Dr. Jorge Rodriguez as well. Thank you.

PATTERSON: Thank you.

COOPER: Coming up, the fight over expanding Hate Crime Legislation; new laws to cover sexual orientation. Is it a step forward for civil rights? We'll talk about that ahead.

Plus, the big "360 Interview," Pakistan's former President Pervez Musharraf on how Afghanistan became such a mess and its critics who say he made the problem there worse. We'll hear from him directly.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: There's a new twist in the controversy over how detainees were treated at Guantanamo Bay. Some big names in music are demanding the release of records about what music was used during the alleged torture of detainees.

First Erica Hill has the "360 Bulletin."

ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, a major strike against Mexican drug operations in the U.S. resulting in 300 arrests over two days and across 19 states. The Justice Department calling it the largest single strike against Mexican drug operations in the U.S., those raids were actually part of a four-year operation targeting the drug cartel known as La Familia.

Federal investigators looking into whether the pilots of a Northwest Airlines flight from San Diego to Minneapolis fell asleep. The plane overshot the Minneapolis airport by about 150 miles. It was out of contact with air traffic controllers for more than an hour. The pilots said they were in a heated discussion and lost track of where they were. For a time though air traffic controllers were concerned the plane was being hijacked.

How is this for a surprise during your newscast? There you go -- a giant sea gull.

COOPER: Yikes.

HILL: Making its way there. Peter Hichtner (ph) of Channel 9 News in Melbourne, Australia though apparently didn't notice. Keeping his cool as the bird...

COOPER: I didn't know they had such big sea gulls there.

HILL: It's Australia. Things are bigger there, apparently, kind of like Texas. The bird walked its highway, it's actually it's sort of a real time projection. You know, kind of like we use for a city escape sometimes for different shots. So there it went. Right in front of the camera.

COOPER: So the object seemed larger than actually is I supposed?

HILL: Yes, it was in his rearview mirror.

COOPER: Oh, well.

HILL: Yes.

COOPER: Well, if giant sea gulls attack. That would be exciting.

HILL: That's tomorrow I think.

COOPER: Historic measure for protection of gays and lesbians. The senate votes to extend federal hate crimes to include victims attacked base on sexual orientation and gender. Many conservatives strongly opposed the bill. We'll have the latest coming up.

Also tonight, Dick Cheney strikes again, the former vice president blasting President Obama, accusing him of being afraid to make a decision on Afghanistan. We'll have the story and the White House response ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: In "Crime & Punishment," tonight a major victory for civil rights groups that have been fighting for years to expand the federal hate crimes law.

The senate today passed a measure extending the law to assaults based on the victim's sexual orientation, gender disability or gender identity. The bill now heads to the White House and President Obama has pledged to sign it.

The measure is named for Matthew Shepard, a gay Wyoming teenager who was murdered 11 years ago. Some critics of the new legislation argue that it goes too far, that it punishes someone for their thoughts.

We asked Dana Bash to look at both sides of the issue.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: When Todd Metrokin came here for late night pizza last summer, he offered a slice to some people sitting outside.

TODD METROKIN, HATE CRIME VICTIM: Because I thought it was a nice exchange. And as we were walking away, my friend mentioned, you know, that he said -- called me a faggot under his breath.

BASH: As they walked through this Adams Morgan neighborhood in D.C., Metrokin didn't realize they were being followed until they were suddenly attacked.

METROKIN: The attack occurred right about here. They were calling us names, faggot.

BASH: What was the last thing you remember?

METROKIN: The last thing I remember was the first hit.

BASH: He woke up in the hospital, looking like this; bruises and broken bones, even a shoe mark on his face.

METROKIN: Somebody had to actually stomp on my face while I was on the ground to achieve that. And that's when it became just so crystal clear to me the kind of hate that requires someone to do that.

BASH: Attacks like this will now be a federal offense under legislation expanding the hate crimes law which now covers race, color and religion to also include victims targeted because of their sexual orientation.

Many Republicans object, arguing violent crimes are already illegal and this creates what they call thought crimes. But supporters note this would punish acts, not beliefs. And points to government figures showing crimes against gays and lesbians are on the rise and say federal dollars, attention and penalties this new law would provide are needed.

OBAMA: And I'll sign it into law.

BASH: Politically, the White House hopes passing this long- fought priority in the gay community will ease frustration that President Obama is slow to act on their issues.

Politically, the White House hopes passing this long-fought priority in the gay community will ease frustration that President Obama is slow to act on their issues. Privately gay rights activists say the president has a long way to go in tempering anger, that he's dragging his feet on the rest of their agenda, like reversing the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

Still, gay rights groups praise Democrats for passing what they call the first major piece of civil rights legislation for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people.

And Todd Metrokin, the victim of a hate crime...

METROKIN: And when you know that there are laws that are out there to protect you in a certain way or at least it gives you a sense of safety and I think that does have value.

BASH: Because, he admits, he still doesn't feel safe when he walks through this neighborhood.

Dana Bash, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, let's "Dig Deeper" with Corey Johnson, a political director for the gay and lesbian blog Towleroad.com also Dan Savage, editorial director of "The Stranger," a Seattle weekly - newsweekly. He's also author of numerous books.

Dan, I appreciate you being with us. Dan, I know you support this legislation. But you say it's largely a symbolic victory and you're worried it may give the Obama administration some political cover. How is so?

DAN SAVAGE, EDITORIAL DIRECTOR, "THE STRANGER": I know for a fact that it's going to give the Obama administration some political cover. But they're going to point to this and say we are delivering on the promises made.

We need to remind the Obama administration that this passed a more conservative Congress two years ago in 2007 and it was vetoed by George Bush. So this is progress. And we're grateful for it. It's a huge victory, a huge symbolic victory.

But hate crimes legislation really doesn't impact the lives of most gays and lesbians in the United States the way not being able to marry impacts the lives of most gays and lesbians in the United States. And we want to see action from the Obama administration on these other priorities, these other promises that he made. And I don't think that his critics and the gay community should be mollified by this achievement. It really is an achievement particularly for the Shepard family and for Dennis and Judy Shepard who worked so hard and so long to pass this.

I don't want to minimize the significance. But hate crimes statute really is largely a symbolic gesture on the part of the program where it is important when a hate crime is committed that intent and motives can be taken into account. It is not a thought crime as it was described...

COOPER: Right.

SAVAGE: ... in that piece. And this is progress. But it's not enough. It's not good enough. It's not the promises Obama made to the gay community, the big ones, the important ones.

COOPER: Corey, it's interesting. Because we were showing video of the President Obama when he was talking to the human rights campaign the other weekend and then showing pictures of the demonstration outside. I know you were in the demonstration outside, I don't know if you were at the HRC event.

But there does seem to be a real kind of, I don't know if it's a generational divide within those who want equal rights for gays and lesbians in this country. You know, President Obama was -- was -- got a lot of standing ovations and hate crimes legislation was incredibly important to the people in that room.

But outside, there are people who were kind of angry about a kind of this piecemeal approach that many activists have taken over the last several decades. How do you see it? Do you see this kind of divide within the equal rights movement?

COREY JOHNSON, POLITICAL DIRECTOR, TOWLEROAD.COM: Yes, Anderson. I think that's an important observation. And as Dan said, this hate crimes bill is an important step in the right direction.

But I think people were very inspired, especially young people with President Obama's election and victory last November. And I think people are frustrated with how slow the process has been. As Dan pointed out, hate crimes is a good victory. It's a good first step.

But this piece of legislation has had broad support in the Congress for many, many years now. And the tougher pieces of legislation are "don't ask, don't tell," repealing it, repealing the Defense of Marriage Act, equality for binational (ph) gay and lesbian couples.

And what I hope Congress learns from this and that the president learns from this is that these measures that are being discussed have wide support. Hate crimes, "don't ask, don't tell" have wide support in passing these measures and that this is just a first small step along the way.

COOPER: Dan, do you think -- I mean the president really, when he talked to the HRC, he didn't say anything about marriage equality. He didn't talk about what's going on in Maine or in any of the other states where marriage is or has been on the ballot or up for referendum.

How important is that to you?

SAVAGE: That's hugely important. And the gay community wants the Obama administration to make an emphatic, explicit statement about question one in Maine and urge a no vote and Referendum 71 in Washington state where I live and urge that voters approve R-71.

All we've heard from the White House on marriage equality is a mealy-mouth press release saying the president supports vague equality without mentioning the "No on One" campaign in Maine or to approval R- 71 campaign in Washington State.

COOPER: But I mean, the president does not support gay marriage.

SAVAGE: No, but he's also said that he in states where gay marriage has been approved by the legislature or approved by the courts that he doesn't support rolling back those rights once achieved.

But he won't go -- he won't lead. I mean that's the gay community's issue with President Obama. It's not that he's got a magic wand and he can wave it and deliver everything to us in a day.

But he's not willing to risk any of the political capital that we helped -- the gay and lesbian community helped him accrue with our money, our votes, our dollars, our support. And we expect our due and we're not getting. We expect leadership and some bravery.

SAVAGE: He said he was a fierce advocate. A fierce advocate would go on television like Jimmy Carter did during the Briggs Initiative in California in the 1970s and urged a no vote in Maine. And all we've gotten from the White House is one vague press release, one statement.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Corey, do you believe he is a fierce advocate?

JOHNSON: Well, I don't think he has shown himself to be a fierce advocate. He's great at giving a speech and the speech at HRC dinner was a beautiful speech. It was a recitation of everything he had said all during the campaign.

And as Dan said, what the gay communities wants is for President Obama to use his bully pulpit to actually be a leader on the issue. A press release from the White House, Robert Gibbs giving an easy answer from the podium in the executive wing is not what the gay community wants. The gay community wants a strong, powerful, forceful statement on the questions in Maine and in Washington. And we wanted a "don't ask, don't tell" and Defense of Marriage Act as well in public forum telling the Congress to act on it so it's a priority. The president needs, just like he's making health care and climate change a priority in speaking of it, he should do the same thing on civil rights for gay and lesbian Americans.

COOPER: Final thought, Dan. We have to go.

SAVAGE: A general point about hate crimes legislation. It's being discussed as gays and lesbians are not protected from hate crimes. That's not the way it works. It's not a force field. It is not magic that we cannot be assaulted anymore.

All it allows is for prosecutors and the federal government to take into account intent. Just like when a cross is burned ion the lawn of an African-American -- it's a crime against the African- American community generally. And that should be taken into account.

That's all -- this adding gays and lesbians to hate crimes legislation -- all it does is allow those sorts of malicious intent to be taken into account. And we're being added. The religious opponents say that they're against this hate crime legislation because it creates a though crime.

Well, religious affiliation's already protected by the federal hate crimes statute. If they were against the creation of political and thought crimes, they should have been advocating for the repeal of that.

JOHNSON: This is a good first step. This is all it is, a first step.

COOPER: Dan Savage and Corey Johnson, appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

SAVAGE: Thanks.

JOHNSON: Thanks.

COOPER: What do you think about the expanded hate crimes bill? Join the live chat right now at ac360.com. Let us know.

Still ahead, what should happen next in Afghanistan? What about its neighbor next door, Pakistan? I sat down face to face with Pakistan's former president, Pervez Musharraf, who some say made the mess in Afghanistan much worse.

I asked him some tough questions. You decide what you make of his answers next.

Later, "Latino in America:" young kids living in the U.S. illegally facing deportation. What does that feel like? What are their lives like? Their stories ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: President Obama and some of his top advisors are working on strategies to prevent fraud from marring Afghanistan's runoff election in two weeks. That's not going to be easy. It's not clear whether Mr. Obama will put off his decision on whether to send more troops to Afghanistan until after the runoff as some Democrats are suggesting. The botched August election has made an already complex situation that much messier.

Now at the same time, next door to Afghanistan, there is Pakistan to deal with. Last week Mr. Obama signed an aid bill that will give Pakistan more than $7 billion over five years with some strings attached.

I sat down with former Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf the other day to talk about all this starting with U.S. troop levels in Afghanistan.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Do you think the U.S. should send in more troops to Afghanistan?

PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, FORMER PRESIDENT OF PAKISTAN: From a purely military point of view, I believe that the military come when you apply force to an area. It has an optimum troop to space ratio is very important.

At the moment I think purely military point of view, the U.S. forces and coalition forces are diluted in space.

COOPER: There's not enough of them?

MUSHARRAF: No.

COOPER: Considering the large amount of area they need to cover?

MUSHARRAF: Yes. So therefore I agree with General McChrystal that an increase is required, certainly.

COOPER: Let's talk about what's happening inside Pakistan right now. A U.S. official say the base of terror is in Pakistan; that that's where the majority of al Qaeda is it.

MUSHARRAF: (INAUDIBLE) terrorism is Afghanistan where Mullah Omar and his Taliban who ruled Afghanistan -- 90 percent of Afghanistan -- for six years are there.

COOPER: As you know, U.S. officials believe and have said repeatedly they believe Mullah Omar who ruled the Taliban is in (INAUDIBLE), is in Pakistan. They say no doubt about it.

MUSHARRAF: That is a ridiculous idea. I don't contribute at all anyone who thinks like that is absolutely and 100 percent wrong.

COOPER: I've had -- numerous U.S. intelligence officials tell me that in Afghanistan that they have no doubt he's in Pakistan.

MUSHARRAF: Your CIA and our ISI have been operating together in the tribe frontier, in the tribal agency (INAUDIBLE). So what are they doing? They don't know the place? Where Mullah Omar is?

And also purely from logic point of view, eastern Afghanistan Kandahar region, the countryside is mostly under the control of the Taliban. Is that right or not?

Now if that is right, if I'm Mullah Omar, why would I go to Pakistan to get caught? Only to get killed? When I am controlling the countryside in my own area. Won't I stay there?

COOPER: There have been allegations that much of the money that the United States has given over the years to Pakistan, to your government, was not delivered to the areas that it was supposed to be.

The U.S. now is proposing giving some $1.5 billion, $1.6 billion each year over the next five years. But they have put stipulations on where the money is to be spent; how it's to be spent. And that has angered many in the Pakistan military who say this is insulting that you're micro managing. In fact, you said don't micromanage.

Doesn't the U.S. government though have the right and the American taxpayers whose paying for this have the right to know that their money is not being spent on other things, it's being spent on fighting terror?

MUSHARRAF: Yes, I'll agree that you ought to be knowing where it is being spent. But as I said, there is a huge amount of money which is being spent there. The money that you give will be a small part of that kitty. Now there is no...

COOPER: It's still a lot of money, $1.5 billion.

MUSHARRAFF: $1.5 billion Yes, $1.5 billion for Pakistan and for military, I don't think it's for the military. I don't think any part of it is.

COOPER: They want it in particular for a lot of economic and social issues.

MUSHARRAF: Yes, socioeconomic. Maybe 20 times that amount is spent on the socioeconomic. We are talking of health. We are talking of education, poverty alleviation, employment generation; now why do we micro manage?

We have to put force there to fight against Taliban and al Qaeda. And that force will be used as per the dictates of the situation and environment and the threat. And the army is fully equipped to understand what the threat is. How much force is required and what equipment is required. Leave it at that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: During his speech last night, former vice president Dick Cheney blasted President Obama for taking too long to decide whether to send more troops to Afghanistan. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Having announced his Afghanistan strategy in March, President Obama now seems afraid to make a decision and unable to provide his commander on the ground with the troops he needs to complete the mission. The White House must stop dithering while America's Armed Forces are in danger.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: The White House shot back today saying that what Cheney calls dithering, President Obama calls his solemn responsibility to the men and women in uniform and the American public.

Joining me now to talk strategy: Michael Ware and CNN national security analyst, Peter Bergen.

Michael Ware, first about what former Vice President Cheney said. For years, there were folks on the ground in Iraq saying there are not enough troops, there are not enough troops. And all we heard from the Bush administration was there are plenty enough troops. And then all of a sudden one day they said there weren't enough troops and they needed a surge.

MICHAEL WARE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, suddenly there was the surge. And it's a fact. What he says is correct. In strict military terms, there's nowhere near enough troops to fight the counterinsurgency that America is planning for.

But America's known that going in, even with U.S. troops and NATO troops combined, there's still not enough boots on the ground to fight the war that America needs to fight.

COOPER: Peter, at one point under the Bush administration there were some 6,000 U.S. troops in Afghanistan. And that was it.

PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes, even two years after the fall of the Taliban there were only 6,000 American soldiers. And, you know, that's the size of a police department in a city like Houston. And you're talking about a country the size of Texas. So, you know, obviously never enough; it's still probably not enough. But it is getting better.

COOPER: Peter, when you hear Pervez Musharraf say there is no way Mullah Omar is in Pakistan; that the epicenter is Afghanistan, I mean every intelligence officials I've ever talked to and I know the ones you've talked to all say all these folks are in Pakistan. Does he not know that or does he just not want to admit that? What do you make of it?

BERGEN: Well, I think the latter. I mean watching that interview was deja vu all over again because we've heard president Musharraf say very similar things in the past and we've also heard people who work for him say very similar things in the past. You know, arguing on the positive side, you know, the Pakistani government is very serious now about going after a lot of the militants on its territory, not necessarily some elements like the Haqqani network or Mullah Omar.

But this offensive that's going on in Waziristan is not a performance offensive as we've seen in the past. This is a massive undertaking; 30,000 soldiers that's setting up blocking forces. They've done months of artillery fire and air raids to soften up the positions and it's really real.

COOPER: Michael, are the Pakistan -- is the Pakistan military able to fight a counter insurgency though? It's a particular kind of warfare. And it seems like they're pretty suited for a conventional war against India.

WARE: Well, you hit the nail right on the head there. The whole focus is their rivalry with India. Now that parlays also into the conflict in Afghanistan.

But in terms of fighting an internal insurgency in Pakistan, the Pakistani military says openly that they don't have the equipment for it. While they may have the know how to do it, they can't divert troops from the Kashmiri border with India. They have troops in other places. They only have so many resources.

Listen, the Taliban, the tribes, the al Qaeda affiliates, they own that region of Pakistan and the terrain itself is formidable. I mean, entire valleys swallow divisions infantry troops. And the militants have had a long time to dig in.

So the Pakistani military really and truly is up against if even if it lost, its heart is in this fight -- Anderson.

COOPER: Peter, you talk of the Haqqani network. There are a lot of people who don't know what's going on in Pakistan to the level of detail about knowing the names of different networks in Pakistan. Explain just briefly -- Taliban is a loose term for a lot of different networks run by different people inside Pakistan.

And it seems like the criticism at least of the Pakistan, even in this offensive is that they're making side deals with some members of the Taliban to kind of stay out of the fight while they go after members of the Taliban that they believe are attacking mainly inside Pakistan.

BERGEN: Yes. And I mean, I think that's fairly accurate. The Haqqani network kidnapped, for instance, reporter -- "New York Times" reporter David Roe who's just writing -- just written this brilliant series about his kidnapping in "The New York Times." Long time allies of al Qaeda that are orientated towards the sort of global Jihad. They're attacking into Afghanistan.

And they've left -- they're not really attacking into Pakistan so they're being kind of left alone in this offensive. What people that will be going after though is the Pakistani Taliban who've made a strategic error by attacking the equivalent of Pakistani Pentagon and killing hundreds of Pakistani civilians and soldiers and, you know, they are going to be under a lot of pressure.

And the big difference, I think, another factor here is the Pakistani population is very in favor of these offensives. They are no longer seen as just sort of acting in the United States sort of part of the American war on terror. They're seen as being done for really Pakistani interests. And that, again, is a positive development.

COOPER: We're going to leave it there. Peter Bergen and Michael Ware, guys appreciate. Thanks very much tonight.

Go to AC360.com for an extended clip of my interview with Pervez Musharraf including more on his strategy for fighting al Qaeda and the Taliban.

And while you're online, you might want to check out former President Musharraf's new Facebook page that he's just launched. That's right. He's on Facebook.

Coming up next, detained in America: an exclusive look at the life of young kids, illegal immigrants living in limbo facing deportation.

And what could Nine Inch Nails, R.E.M. and Pearl Jam have to do with Guantanamo Bay? We'll tell you ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Earlier tonight, CNN presented the second half of "LATINO IN AMERICA." Part of this evening's report focused on illegal immigration and what it means to be a kid facing deportation.

Through the eyes of one girl we're given a very personal and emotional account of this polarizing issue. Soledad O'Brien has her story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): She cannot leave these bare rooms with the buzzers and the bars.

(on camera): Do you feel like you're in jail?

O'BRIEN (voice-over): She is confined in Boys' Town Children's Village. One of 41 secured detention centers where the U.S. government holds immigrant children; children who entered this country illegally all by themselves.

Last year 7,200 children were detained in shelters like this. This girl came searching for a mother who left her years ago. A U.S. judge has ordered her deported back to Central America.

We've agreed not to use her real name. So we'll call her Marta. Marta's days at Boys' Town are long and lonely. She fears she'll be deported any day.

CNN got an exclusive look at her life inside. It's a federal shelter for children trapped in immigration limbo. Marta came to America looking for her mother and a better life. She has neither. But she has food and shelter. Her schooling is limited and she fears she's falling behind in her studies.

Michelle Abarca, a Latina of Nicaraguan descent has volunteered to fight Marta's deportation. As a lawyer for the Florida Immigrant Advocacy Center, Michelle is the only person on Marta's side.

MICHELLE ABARCA, LAWYER, FLORIDA IMMIGRANT ADVOCACY CENTER: They have a right to an attorney but the government will not pay for an attorney. If they don't have a pro bono attorney, they have to go there on their own regardless of their age and present their cases.

(on camera): You mean 5-year-olds are responsible for their case?

ABARCA: Correct.

O'BRIEN (voice-over): There are 31 children of all ages detained at Boys' Town on this day. We're not allowed to show their faces or identify their exact location. It looks a bit like a summer camp except that among the day's activities, immigration court.

This boy crossed the border on one leg, hoping to get a new prosthetic in the United States. Boys' Town succeeded in getting donors to help him.

This 4-year-old was caught crossing the border with his father. His father was sent to jail. Like any little boy, he just wants to play. He has no idea of the legal web he's caught in.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Children caught in immigration limbo all of them, thousands facing a very uncertain future. It is, of course, a sensitive subject, one that Erica Hill took up with a former Florida Senator Mel Martinez -- Erica.

HILL: Anderson, that's because Senator Martinez came to the U.S. when he was 15 years old. It was a part of a program which ultimately brought 14,000 Cuban children to the U.S. legally. His first stop upon arriving was also Boys' Town. That was before he eventually ended up in a foster home.

He told me today what it was like for him there more than 40 years ago.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MEL MARTINEZ, FORMER U.S. SENATOR: I can only imagine what a child today is going through, particularly some that might be even younger. I was 15 at the time. It's a time of loneliness, a time of confusion, a time where you're wondering where there's a familiar face or a loved one and there really isn't anyone around that can fill that role for you.

HILL: How do you take care of those families and those children and give them what they need and still take care of what the United States needs?

MARTINEZ: You know, we have to -- number one, obviously, we have to enforce our borders. But having said that, we also cannot treat everyone on -- kind of throw a blanket that kind of tends to cover everyone. So it's a way of having the heart and the charity to try to find children in that circumstance, a way forward, allowing them to make their way in America, get an education and so forth.

That really is what America is all about. Not to encourage illegal entry but at the same time we have to deal with those that are here in an American way, which I think is a charitable and humane way.

HILL: Yet for a lot of people these days, immigration is not only a touchy subject; it is a very controversial subject. And they don't necessarily see it in that light.

MARTINEZ: I think initially it has been a matter of people having no faith that we would control our borders, however, what we have to do is move past that because it doesn't mean amnesty. It doesn't mean to do that which may anger a lot of Americans who expect people to follow the law. But it does mean that we have to deal with the problem that has been lingering for much too long.

HILL: I know you in the past have pushed for and co-sponsored bills which included a guest worker program, a path to citizenship. When you talk about tighter borders, you also voted for more of 700 additional miles of this border fence between the U.S. and Mexico. How specifically is a fence and the money that goes toward making that fence going to work?

MARTINEZ: Look, I think that a fence was a bad signal. I think there were portions of fence that needed to be built. We cannot wall ourselves from illegal entry. There's always going to be some. Part of the genius of a guest worker program is that then you provide a legal means by which people can come and go.

Unfortunately, too many Democrats do not favor it because unions are very much opposed to it. So that's part of the conflict here. Some Republicans want more border security. Some Democrats don't want a guest worker program. This is a very dicey political issue.

HILL: Speaking specifically of your party, which has been criticized heavily as of late, even Senator Lindsey Graham saying we need to stop being the party of angry white men.

As a Latino, you were chairman of the Republican National Committee. How do you stop your party from being seen as a party of angry white men?

MARTINEZ: It is unfortunate that there's been a small segment of our party who has spoken with angry voices. And those sometimes tend to be louder; tend to get on the air. They there are voices that are sounding a tone that is not American.

I would encourage members of my party to speak with a moderate voice. I don't mean to be moderate on the issue, but careful what language we use.

HILL: Senator Mel Martinez, thank you.

MARTINEZ: Good to be with you, thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Topic of the hour, an encore presentation of "LATINO IN AMERICA." See how this nation's largest minorities chase the American dream.

Coming up next, defending David Letterman; a long-time co-worker of the comedian is speaking out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: Let's get caught up on some other important stories. Erica Hill joins us with the "360 Bulletin" -- Erica.

HILL: Anderson, Rapper Li'l Wayne pleading guilty to a gun charge in New York today. He's expected to face a year in prison when he is sentenced in February.

R.E.M., Pearl Jam and a number of other rock bands protesting the possible use of their music to try to break down detainees at Guantanamo Bay and are now demanding the government release all Bush administration records on the tactics. Former detainees have said songs from Sesame Street, the Barney theme song, Meow Mix cat food jingle were also played at Gitmo.

The executive producer of the "Late Show with David Letterman" defending his boss after the comedian admitted on the program to an affair with a staffer. In a letter to the National Organization for Women, Rob Burnett (ph) says the work environment on the show is fair and professional. It was a direct response to allegations that Letterman created a toxic work environment.

And a Minnesota man pleaded guilty to driving his motorized la-z- boy recliner while drunk. As you can see here, it looks powerful because it was. Powered by a converted lawnmower and also tricked out with a stereo, even cup holders. It looks like there's some lighting there as well.

Dennis Leroy Anderson crashed it in August 2008; he crashed into a parked car. Police said his blood alcohol level three times the legal limit.

COOPER: That looks like Homer Simpson's car. Have you ever seen the car that Homer Simpson designed once? It had like a million cup holders and stuff.

HILL: Maybe that's where he got it from. It reminds me of those chairs from "Remote Control" that MTV game show.

COOPER: I can't believe he would go to the trouble to have a motorized la-z-boy. And then decide to drive it while drunk. Just the through process..

HILL: Maybe he was thinking it's not a car. He wasn't seriously hurt. He actually got his six-month sentence suspended. He got a couple year's probation instead.

It made me think of the motorized bar stool. Perhaps you remember this one.

COOPER: Of course.

HILL: Ohio, 28-year-old man, Kyle Wyle who crashed it near his home and then called 911 because he got hurt, which was good; that, too, also powered by a lawnmower. He claimed it could go 40 miles an hour. Charged with DUI.

COOPER: Seems like a good idea at the time.

Erica thanks very much.

HILL: They always do.

COOPER: Yes.

Stay tuned for "LATINO IN AMERICA," which starts right now.