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Professor`s Twisted Past Comes to Light

Aired February 16, 2010 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, toxic secrets take a deadly turn. ISSUES goes inside Amy Bishop Anderson`s dark and deadly past. The college professor is accused of slaughtering three faculty members in cold blood. This very same woman gunned down her own brother and was suspected in a mail-bombing plot. Could there be other victims? Tonight, an ISSUES exclusive: we`ll talk to her close, personal friend and go inside her history of violence.

Plus, jaw-dropping developments in the Casey Anthony case: new never- before-seen pictures go inside the crime scene. Could a rare form of duct tape found on little Caylee`s body link Casey to murder? We`re digging through the evidence, searching for the smoking gun.

All this as Casey`s defense team loses two key players in less than a week. Is the dream team turning into a nightmare?

ISSUES starts now.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we begin with fast-breaking news tonight in the case of that University of Alabama professor accused of slaughtering three of her colleagues in cold blood. Just moments ago, news that a missing police report -- and I am holding it in my hands right now. Our staff has been furiously going through all the pages.

This police report involving suspect Amy Bishop`s violent past. It suddenly turns up. If you`ve been following the story, you`ll remember, it was missing. Just turned up moments ago. It`s a police report about how she shot and killed her very own brother back in 1986. The shooting was ruled accidental.

But moments ago, the D.A. publicly admitted that was a mistake. It should not have been ruled accidental. She should have faced a slew of charges.

Also tonight, frightening revelations about her bizarre behavior from former neighbors. Plus, there are shocking new reports about the hand gun she allegedly used to murder three fellow teachers and injure three others. The 44-year-old University of Alabama biology professor is apparently upset over being denied tenure. She is tonight charged with capital murder, but she denies everything.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma`am, do you have anything to say? Do you know about what happened?

AMY BISHOP, MURDER SUSPECT: It didn`t happen. There`s no way.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about the people who died?

BISHOP: There`s no way. They`re still alive.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, they are not still alive. It did happen.

In the wake of the terror caused over this twisted teacher, a heroine has emerged. Deborah Moriarty was reportedly the professor`s closest friend, in the department, anyway. Witnesses say Deborah heroically pushed her friend out of the room and barricaded her out when the gun ran out of bullets, before she could reload. ABC News depicted the scenario with this chilling animation.

Look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One hour into the routine faculty meeting, Bishop opened fire, methodically shooting professors at the table one at a time. Moriarty managed to crawl into the hallway. Bishop followed, ready to shoot, but when she pulled the trigger, her gun clicked out of the bullets. Moriarty scrambled back into the room, and the remaining professors barricaded the door.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: As for that gun, Bishop`s husband said his wife borrowed it. Was it the same gun she used when the two of them went to a shooting range just recently to target practice? We don`t know.

Meantime, neighbors claim the couple was weird and hostile. Listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not a lot of people really liked them. They thought they were strange. They used to actually videotape us. And he actually grabbed me once and pulled me off my dirt bike and threw me down on the ground.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Police in Ipswich, Massachusetts, where Bishop and her husband once lived, say the couple were, quote, "regular customers," making numerous 911 calls about the neighborhood kids.

I want to know what you think about all of this, this truly bizarre story. Give me a call. The number: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586- 7297.

Straight out to my truly fantastic panel. Judge Larry Seidlin. You`ll remember him. He presided over the Anna Nicole Smith body custody case and became internationally famous for that case. Judge Seidlin is also a former prosecutor. Dr. Dale Archer, clinical psychiatrist. And Bill Stanton, private investigator, senior partner with a consulting firm, Cue Verite (ph).

On the phone, fascinating, fascinating interview, Tom Pettigrew. Wait until you hear his claim about Amy Bishop holding a gun to his chest, in just a moment.

But first, in an ISSUES exclusive interview, I am joined by Rob Dinsmoor. He is a friend, a good friend of the suspected murderer. And he is here to talk about her character and how he knew a different side.

Rob, you just heard the intro. You hear all these people talking about how she complained about neighbors, how she was hostile, how she was weird. What was the person you knew? Who is the Amy Bishop Anderson you knew?

ROB DINSMOOR, FRIEND OF AMY BISHOP: Well, she was basically a very sweet person. I called her a bit of a nerdette. She was -- I found her sometimes to be not very diplomatic dealing with people, not very tactful. But I essentially thought of her as a very sweet person. She was a very helpful friend to me. She was also a very good mother to her kids. And that`s the side that I saw. Also a very gifted writer.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did you ever see flares of anger or hostility? We all have friends. Some of them are kind of passive and they take -- others are fiery, and when something happens they get angry really fast. How would you describe her?

DINSMOOR: I have never seen her explode into temper. Now, I have gotten, late at night, getting into, like, political discussions or talks about university politics and stuff like that. And she would start to raise her voice, and she`d go on kind of tirades. But I never saw this sort of explosive temper that sounds like what happened in Alabama.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So when you saw this unfolding on the news, being her good friend, and you hear that she shot her own brother back in 1986, A, had she ever told you that she shot her own brother back in 1986 when she was 20 years old?

DINSMOOR: Well, no. As a matter of fact, she never even mentioned that she had a brother. And that was -- that was a real surprise to me because, you know, I had known her for about 12 years. I thought that I knew her pretty well. I thought we had a lot of discussions over the years about some -- you know, in my case, some of my darkest, deepest secrets, and she never even mentioned that she had -- ever had this brother.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So when you saw that, combined with her being accused of gunning down three of her colleagues, killing three of them, injuring three others, what -- what ran through you? Describe what was going through your mind and your heart.

DINSMOOR: Well, it`s been a surreal three or four days. I`ll tell you that much.

One Saturday morning, last Saturday morning, I`m having a cup of coffee. I`m reading the "Boston Globe," turned to page A-7, and there`s her face -- staring into her face as she`s getting pushed into a police cruiser. So I said, "That looks just like Amy." And then -- then I saw other words that just popped out at me, Huntsville, neuroscientist, University of Alabama, and, you know, it was like a dawning realization.

So I turned the column on, and I just kept reading until I came across her name. And I was just totally shocked. And I called a mutual friend who knew -- actually called a few mutual friends who knew Amy, and I finally got one that at least met her and said, "You`ll never believe what I just saw in the newspaper."

So I spent a good part of the next couple of days talking to people and soul searching. And it`s just -- it`s still mind-boggling to me. Each new day, the new revelation is just -- it`s shocking and it`s saddening.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And by the way, the images you were looking at were images of some of the victims just moments ago, as Rob has spoken. And Rob, I want to thank you for coming on. I know it would be so easy to say, "I just knew another person. I`m not going to talk about it," but I really respect your coverage in coming on and talking about this. Because I know it`s got to be very difficult for you, and you`ve got to be wondering, "Well, who is this person I know? Am I a bad judge of character?"

Because I think that sometimes myself when I find out something about somebody. I wonder, "Well, wait, is it me?" But I think you demand -- really, you deserve to be given a round of applause for coming on and talking about the other side of the friend that you knew, who is now accused of this horror. So hang on there...


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead. I have a lot of other questions for you. But Amy Bishop and her husband, James Anderson, lived in the sea town of Ipswich, Massachusetts, between approximately 1999 and 2003. Listen to what former neighbors said about this couple.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not a lot of people really liked them. They thought they were strange. They used to actually videotape us. And he actually grabbed me once and pulled me off my dirt bike, and threw me down on the ground.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was in a kid-friendly neighborhood and didn`t like being around the kids playing outside. She didn`t like the ice-cream truck coming here. Thank God all our kids and us were alive. Because you never know.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So police say, they called 911 on the neighborhood kids a whole bunch of times, that she stopped an ice-cream truck from coming into the neighborhood. She was upset about the dirt bikes, about the motorized bikes, about any bikes. And she would -- apparently, they would even videotape the kids in the neighborhood to try to intimidate them. Now, does that jibe with the person you know?

DINSMOOR: It doesn`t entirely un-jibe. She used to complain about that neighborhood all the time. You know, it`s a very insular little neighborhood. It`s like a little circular drive, or a cul-de-sac or something, the way I remember it. And I think it was an insular group of neighbors. And I don`t think that she fit in at all.

I hate to use -- I can`t think of a better word than "townies," and here`s this, you know, Harvard professor who moves in. And she`s sort of an outsider in a way. And I -- and I think she also had very limited tolerance for kids who acted out. Her kids were so well behaved. And have...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did she isolate her kids? Because some of the reports said she isolated her own. She has four kids.

DINSMOOR: Does she what? Isolated them?


DINSMOOR: I don`t remember them ever being isolated, no. They came to visit our family camp. My mom loved them, loved -- you know, loved the whole family. My dad loved the whole family. I didn`t get a sense of her isolating them. They -- I`m wondering, you know, where that comes from.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I think this is...

DINSMOOR: I think they had a lot of friends.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. This is fascinating, though. I think you may have hit a nerve when you talked about, well, the townies, and she had this Harvard degree and -- do you think she had a sort of sense of entitlement? Like, "I am this important person," and then when she`s denied tenure, wow, that`s got to -- that`s got to be humiliating.

DINSMOOR: I don`t think of her as necessarily a self-important person. But I think that she -- she did not suffer fools gladly. Let`s put it that way. And she had very -- had very little tolerance for people who were ignorant or who were unruly or just didn`t know how to be reasoned with.

And that was a common theme, as it seemed like she would try -- according to her, she would go and try to reason with these people, and they just were completely unreasonable and unwavering, and you know, it`s her problem, you know.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. So it sounds like she was taking other people`s inventory and was judgmental of other people and had sort of a superiority complex, which as we all know, is often masking an inferiority complex.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Everybody stay right where you are. We`re going to get to everybody on our panel. So much more insight into this professor`s dark past. Unbelievable stuff in the police report. And we`re going to talk to a man who says she put a gun to him back in 1986.

We`re going to take your calls: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297. Matt from Tennessee, hang in there. We`ll get to you in a second.

Plus, have investigators found the smoking gun in the Casey Anthony case? Tonight, new pictures show us a side of the crime scene we have never seen.

But first, Amy Bishop gunned down her own brother and was a suspect in a failed bomb plot. How in the world did she land a job at the University of Alabama? Why didn`t the administrators see red flags?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma`am, do you have anything to say? Do you know about what happened?

BISHOP: It didn`t happen. There`s no way.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about the people who died?

BISHOP: There`s no way. They`re still alive.



WENDY MURPHY, AUTHOR, "AND JUSTICE FOR ALL": One of the biggest issues that encourages school officials to turn a blind eye to high-risk factors on campus is that they actually have better liability protection if they turn a blind eye. In other words, the more they know, the more they pay attention, the more they notice the red flag, the greater the risks they could be held liable when something bad happens.

JUDGE DAVID YOUNG, FORMER MIAMI-DADE COUNTY JUDGE: The bottom line here is the university messed up. They were totally incompetent. They could have weeded her out from day one. She never should have gotten a job there. If they would have done any due diligence, they would have seen what a whack job this woman was.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Meantime, Amy Bishop`s husband had speculated that the trigger for her alleged rampage was a, quote, unquote, "nasty-gram" from college officials. Listen to this report from our affiliate WAAY.


MELISSA RIOPKA, WAAY REPORTER: This was to be her last semester at the university without tenure. She was not going to be coming back in the fall, and she had appealed that as part of the appeals process. She was trying to get some petitions, some signatures from students showing their support for her.

We did speak with one student immediately following the shooting who said she did sign that petition. She felt that Dr. Bishop was a strong asset for the university and that she should be granted tenure and allowed to stay. But...


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, so she was upset about not having tenure. She was starting a petition drive, and we`ve got new information just in as we speak.

Amy Bishop filed a complaint with the University of Alabama last year, alleging gender discrimination. It was denied. Rob Dinsmoor, you`re a close friend of the suspected mass killer. Did...


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, that`s not an impact on you. I`m saying that that`s what she`s described as. Did she ever express feelings that she was being discriminated on, on the basis of gender? And did she ever have any racial, race issues? Because, you know, it`s been pointed out here so many of the victims here are people of color.

DINSMOOR: OK. I don`t think she had any race issues at all. What I did hear her say, and she never talked about it necessarily about herself, but she said it`s very hard for women to excel in academia, that they`ve got points against them.

She also said, when I was talking about a diabetes researcher that I have talked to -- I`m a medical writer -- she said that, you know, eccentric women have an especially difficult time. And I think she included herself in that category. Brilliant, kind of eccentric women. They don`t -- apparently they`re not as well as accepted as sort of eccentric men.

So she`s made that comment. So I did get a sense that she thought that there was some gender bias, but she never spoke of it specifically with regard to herself.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr.j Dale Archer, listening to all this, what do you make of the psychological profile at this point?

DR. DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: This is classic work-place violence, Jane. This is narcissism; this is high self-esteem. This is thinking you`re the best, you`re the brightest, you`re the greatest, and you deserve accolades. You deserve to be recognized for how great you are.

When that doesn`t occur, then the self-esteem gets damaged, and you start thinking, "Why? Why am I not being recognized?" And you start thinking, "I know. It`s my peers. They don`t like me. They`re jealous. They think I`m better than they are. And they`re the ones who have caused all this."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ve got it.

ARCHER: "I`m going to get them back."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Matt, Tennessee, quick thought, sir.

CALLER: Yes. One question. Did they search the house? Did they find a hit list of who did not vote for her? And one other question is, how did she obtain this gun? Whose name is the permit in? If she shot and killed her brother, how was she able to buy another handgun?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, my understanding is that it`s believed that she borrowed the gun. And we`re going to try to answer some of your questions on the other side of this break. More on this very dark, dark past of a professor.



BROOKE MCCRELESS, UAH NURSING MAJOR: To find out that, you know, she could have been potentially involved was just very hard for me, because I was very close to her; and I looked up to her and I admired her. So it was -- it was very shocking, but then it was very painful to hear, as well.

I don`t want to believe it, just because I know how she is. She is a good person.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there you go, Rob. Somebody else says that they also thought she was a very nice lady, the nice professor.

The mother, by the way, of four kids, ages 8 to 18, now charged with murdering three of her colleagues and injuring three others.

And let`s go back to 1986 when she shot and killed her brother. Rob, who we`re talking to exclusively, says she never even told him that she had a brother. OK.

And now we are hearing more details from Tom Pettigrew. You`re joining us by phone. Tell us what your experience was. She came, you say, to the car dealership right after she shot and killed her brother. What did she do? What did she say?

TOM PETTIGREW, CLAIMS BISHOP HELD GUN TO HIM (via phone): I was working on a friend of mine`s car, and I noticed a woman walking with what I thought was a BB gun. And she went across the parking lot and entered another building that`s on the same property I was on.

And I turned to a friend of mine, and I said -- I said, "Some lady just walked into, you know, the other shop with a BB gun. And he was like, let`s go check it out. So we walked down there. We entered the shop. There was a stairway and a door that goes up to the second floor, and I heard someone coming down the stairs. And I walked over to the door.

When I opened the door, we kind of startled each other. She was like right out on the other side of the door. I`m not saying that she pointed the gun at...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What did she say? What did she say?

PETTIGREW: I asked her? I said -- I go, "What`s going on? What are you doing here?" And she told me something to the effect that she just got into a fight with her husband, he`s going to kill her, that she had to get away from there. You know, she was, like...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What did she demand? Did she demand a car?

PETTIGREW: Yes, she was asking if there was a car around here that she could have, you know, or take or whatever. And she asked me if I had a car. And I told her the car that I was in at the time was, you know, on a lift with wheels and tires off it. But...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I`m going to just put you on hold there for a second. Stay with us.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s a fascinating story. But I want to go back to Rob.

Now you`re hearing this back story about her very troubling past. What do you make of it?

DINSMOOR: You know, I just honestly don`t know what to make of it. It`s -- I don`t think, for example, the Amy that I knew was a fake. But it`s -- obviously, there`s a lot more to her personality and her background than I ever, you know, could have imagined.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Does this give you pause? I mean, we never know people. We just don`t know.

DINSMOOR: I`m learning that as I grow older and from my friends and their experiences. No, you really don`t know anybody, I mean, very well. You don`t know what they`re capable of. I think most people are capable of just about anything under the right circumstances.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Or the wrong circumstances.

DINSMOOR: Or the wrong circumstances, as the case may be.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Rob, thanks again for coming on. And we have got so much more to come. We`re going to hear from Judge Seidlin, analysis. It`s just a wild story, and we`ve got tons of documents, new information to bring you, next.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jaw-dropping developments in the Casey Anthony case. New never-before-seen pictures go inside the crime scene. Could a rare form of duct tape found on little Caylee`s body link Casey to murder? We`re digging through the evidence, searching for the smoking gun.

Breaking news tonight in the University of Alabama massacre: a college professor, a biology professor accused of gunning down three of her colleagues, injuring three others. And now, breaking news tonight: startling, stunning jaw-dropping information coming in about this woman from 1986. We already knew that she had shot her brother to death, but it was ruled accidental.

Just moments ago, the district attorney issued this news release saying the analysis of the newly-received documents -- because they had lost the police report and they just found it -- as well as previously released blah, blah, blah indicate that probable cause existed at the time to place Amy Bishop under arrest and charged with assault with a dangerous weapon, carrying a dangerous weapon, and unlawful possession of ammunition.

Judge Larry Seidlin, you know, duh -- what about attempted carjacking and murder? She killed her own brother.

JUDGE LARRY SEIDLIN, PRESIDED OVER ANNA NICOLE SMITH CASE: Yes, yes. When you look at the facts of 1986, it seems to show foul play. But the police took statements. I was looking at the reports. They took statements from the family members, the mother, the father. And when you look at the statements, they`re inconsistent.

And then it shows the gun she has, three bullets come out of it and one of those bullets kills her brother and it shows that she was angry before the killing if we can state it as a killing.

Now when we look at the crimes that the professor just committed, killing three other professors, this woman has an internal combustion. She`s angry internally as your book says, these addictions, anger. She doesn`t seem to express it within a lawful manner.

The `86 cases are going to be reopened. The media has the spotlight on the police department there and they`re going to look at all the facts again. Sometimes it`s a jigsaw puzzle. The pieces don`t fall in until goes by.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. But let me jump in, judge. According to the news release just issued by the D.A., he says the statute of limitations has run out on all the charges that she should have been placed under arrest for: assault, carrying a dangerous weapon, unlawful possession of ammunition. And -- he goes on to say -- even if the grand jury were to hear allegations that there was wanton and reckless conduct on the part of Amy Bishop, the lowest standard for manslaughter in Massachusetts, the statute of limitation has barred indictment on that charge since 1992.

Sounds to me like they`re not going to do nothing -- Judge.

SEIDLIN: Well, let him earn a paycheck because you also be looking at murder one where it`s an intentional killing. And he`s got to look at that. There`s no statue of limitations on that crime. Let him do his homework here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Absolutely. Bill Stanton, private investigator, here`s another thing that`s very fishy about this. Tom Pettigrew, who has graciously staid on the phone with us, is the guy who says after she shot her brother, she went over to the car dealership where he works, stuck a gun in his face and said I need a car.

The police chief, the man who was the police chief at the time who`s now elderly when interviewed about this yesterday says, "I don`t remember anything about a car dealership. I don`t remember anything at all about that. Well, why didn`t they contact police?"

They just found the police report right here. You know what it says? I`ll read it to you. "A girl holding a shotgun. She pointed the gun at them and said she wanted a car. And a set of keys right away. She told them to stop, to step back while keeping the gun on them. As they step back, she went" -- and I can`t read the rest of it because the handwriting is so bad.

But basically, this man, Tom Pettigrew, who just spoke on our air is telling the truth, according to the police report and they questioned that yesterday.

BILL STANTON, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Well, it`s amazing, Jane, how much power these smaller police departments have. They literally have the power of life and death in their hands in more ways than one.

But I would like to bring out a specific point, Jane. What you and your producers have done is brought out more background than what 90 percent, in my opinion, of screeners, HR people, investigators do for background checks. It`s amazing.

Look what you`ve done in this hour so far. You put a woman, a student who said she`s a very good person. You`ve had a neighbor that says she was weird, and you`ve had one of her closest friends that said he knew nothing about her past. Look at all this information that`s been brought out.

I guarantee you when this background check was originally done, none of this information was ever brought to light.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, of course not. And Dr. Dale Archer, the university says, well, we did an academic check on her, but we didn`t do a criminal check. But after this tragedy, we decided we`re going to run a criminal check and nothing came out, therefore we`re ok.

But, you know what? They do background checks when you go to get a job. Like I said --

STANTON: Jane, Jane, it`s amazing. You know, academic check, criminal background check. What it comes down to is dollars and no common sense. And again, I`m a little jaded.

It is amazing. We see this again and again. People that go off the handle and what happens is HR departments want to spend the least amount of money possible. What they do -- it`s a combination of many things.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right, and they also want deniability as Wendy Murphy mentioned. If they don`t know anything, they can say we didn`t know.

Now there are lingering questions about the suspect`s husband, James Anderson. He says the two of them recently visited a shooting range for target practice and to top it off, he says he does not know where she got the gun. Was she using the same one that she used on the shooting range? Cops interviewed him after the shooting but let him go.

This is what the husband of the alleged shooter said on ABC`s "Good Morning America". Listen to this


JAMES ANDERSON, AMY BISHOP`S HUSBAND: Nobody understands what happened. Nobody knows. I mean I can`t sit down and talk to her and ask her, what happened? What went wrong? What broke?

She was loved and respected by everybody in the scientific community and by her students. They all liked her. They all loved her. That`s the problem is all these closed things have been brought back up.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Dale Archer, years ago the couple was questioned about a pipe bomb that was sent to one of her colleagues. They were both cleared. This husband says he still loves her, spoke to her from jail. And she asked if the kids had done their homework.

I find it -- it`s very interesting that the husband referred to her having gotten a nasty gram (ph) which to is a very, I think, a cheeky way of describing any kind of communication if you`re discuss something in the wake of a rampage that left three people dead. Do you think that there was some kind of a bizarre relationship between these two?

DR. DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: Well, the relationship probably was bizarre, but I think that -- we`re trying to analyze this in terms of family and friends saying we didn`t see anything wrong. We thought everything was fine.

The key here is the self-esteem blow in a narcissist when they don`t get what they think they deserve. This is how work place violence occurs over and over again. It`s always a firing or you didn`t get a promotion. Or you didn`t get the respect you wanted or you deserved or thought you deserved. This is common and when it happens --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But it`s not what regular people do. I`ve been fired. We`ve all gotten fired in our live, most of us. It`s a learning experience, a growth experience.

ARCHER: I know Jane, but if you look at this over and over again -- work place violence is a very distinct subset of violence. It`s different from domestic or school yard -- any other type of violence. It`s always related to someone who thinks they are better, they are brighter, they deserve more. When they don`t get it, their minds start --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But she killed her brother after an argument.

ARCHER: Jane, it`s very classic in the brother also. The narcissist wants to be the best and recognized as the best. When you have a brother, then the brother gets equal attention from your parents. When you start thinking like that, and in someone prone to violence, the murder then does not seem so out of the realm in an individual.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good analysis.

STANTON: But Jane, I have a question.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we`re out of time. Make it quick.

STANTON: What is someone to do? Unfortunately, before this happened, where were the grounds for firing her?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, if they had done a proper background check and they had found that she had killed her brother --

STANTON: But she wasn`t arrested.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- maybe they would have sat down and questioned her and done a psychological profile. And if they had done a psychological profile they might have found out she had a couple of scoops of crazy in her breakfast cereal that morning. But they didn`t do that.

ARCHER: She wasn`t arrested. How would they find that?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s what I`m saying. I didn`t pay a $124 bill because it fell in a crack somewhere when I moved from California to New York. And there`s a credit report a mile long that I have to live with for the rest of my life. But you can shoot your brother? You can shoot your brother and then walk away and according to Tom Pettigrew, hold a gun to somebody and demand a car and there`s no record of it?

SEIDLIN: No record.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s wrong. There`s something wrong with the way we compile information in this country, seriously.

All right, we`ve got to wrap it. Fascinating. We`re going to stay on top of this story.

Up next, equally fascinating. Casey Anthony, could she really get a fair trial with all the damning information that`s been made public today? We`re going to tell you the latest jaw-dropping developments and evidence dump. And I want to hear from you, taking your calls, 1-877-JVM- SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her killer prepared some substance in advance that would render her physically unable to resist, administered the substance, awaited its effect and then methodically applied three pieces of duct tape to completely cut off the flow of air through her mouth or her nose.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mind blowing new photos released in the Casey Anthony murder case. We have hundreds of brand-new images from a massive document dump. HLN affiliate WESH reports prosecutors say, some of these photos are of -- are you sitting down? The murder weapon and they are photos of duct tape.

Duct tape as a murder weapon? Little Caylee`s body was found with duct tape stuck to her skull, covering her mouth. Did the tape suffocate Caylee?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her killer prepared some substance in advance that would render her physically unable to resist, administered the substance, awaited its effect and then methodically applied three pieces of duct tape to completely cut off the flow of air through her mouth or her nose.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is duct tape the key to this case? Tonight, head-spinning new evidence; when little Caylee went missing, the Anthony family plastered flyers with the child`s face all over town, furiously searching for the child.


CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Caylee is missing and continue to look for Caylee. She is not dead.

There`s nothing to hide. That little girl is out there.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, take a look at this photo just released today. The duct tape the Anthonys used to secure posters to utility polls and store windows, prosecutors say is the very same rare type of duct tape that was found wrapped around little Caylee`s tiny skull.

Did the Anthony`s unknowingly use the same tape Caylee`s killer used to silence her in order to put up those missing persons flyers? Some of that very same tape was also found stuck to gas cans in the Anthony`s garage.

Plus, never-before-seen photos of a knife found in Casey Anthony`s car. Investigators say they haven`t been able to link it all together, but these highly magnified photos show what looks like traces of, you guessed it, duct tape threads on the blade.

Mixed in with all this gruesome evidence is heart breaking video of precious little Caylee playing and reading a book. Take a look.




VELEZ-MITCHELL: What an angel. And we have to remember, this case is about getting justice for this beautiful innocent little girl.

Straight out to my fantastic expert panel: also joining me, criminal defense attorney, Jayne Weintraub and "In Session" correspondent Beth Karas.

Beth, it was a giant evidence dump, so overwhelming. Give us the highlights. What are some of the key things that popped out at you as being significant?

BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT "IN SESSION" ON TRUTV: Well, the images are the first time we`re seeing a lot of these things. Although it`s not the first time we`re learning about them. The images, well, we knew the duct tape existed. There`s the doll that was recovered from the car, the car seat, the trunk liner, lots of images of the trunk liner which was cut out of the car and then pieces of it were cut.

And so there are a lot of highly magnified images. They haven`t been described, but there are portions of the carpeting, for example, and the duct tape as well. There are also manuals and protocols from the FBI about how they conducted a lot of testing. How the testing is to be done.

There is one report, though, different from that. And that`s a water depth report. And that report concludes that the area where Caylee`s remains were found was not under water from June 16 through September 11 but for a ten-day period, August 18 to August 28. Not the time when Roy Kronk says, called in three times in August, says he`s found something suspicious, August 11, 12, 13. Not underwater at that time, underwater to 18 through the 28th, otherwise, not under water.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And for all of us whose heads are exploding with all these dates, can you give us some sense of what the significance of that is? I can kind of guess but I want to make sure I`m not assuming.

KARAS: Ok, well, June 16th is the last time that Caylee is seen alive. December -- this is all 2008, December 11th is when her remains are found. The prosecution believes that she was placed in the area where was found close in time to when she disappeared and that she was carried around in Casey Anthony`s trunk of her car because there is a heavy odor and other evidence of decomposition in the car.

And the cop implies which were found in the car and at the place where her body was found are also consistent with a decomposing body.

There was a time period, though, in August when Roy Kronk, who found her body on December 11, 2008 called in something suspicious at the same spot, August 11th, 12th and 13th. And he`s -- and it`s a little suspicious that he did that and it wasn`t thoroughly truly investigated that he happened to be right when he was calling in. And she actually was found in that same place.

But the defense has said that her body was placed there after Casey was locked up. She`s been locked up since October 14, 2008. And that her body was placed there sometime later. And the prosecution is preparing to refute that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So basically, the prosecution is building a case, Jayne Weintraub, so that it can say there is absolutely no way that somebody held on to this child who had been dead shortly after she disappeared and somehow held on to the corpse. And then when Casey was suddenly behind bars, they`re going to drop it there at the place where it was finally found?

JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t see it that way. I remember distinctly some of the police officers getting on your show and being recorded and saying that the reason that they couldn`t search the ground were because it was underwater.

And according to the FBI reports that was released today that Beth was just mentioning, that`s not true at all. They just didn`t search. They didn`t look at it when they were supposed to look at it or when they could have looked at it and they waited.

And now later they are using it as an excuse but buried in this document dump of over 1,000 pages, is a one-page report or two-page report that vindicates the theory that it was just the police being lazy and now trying to blame it on the defense.

The reality is the judge needs to get a hold of this case Jane.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So basically you`re saying there was no water there, so there was no body there because everybody was saying the body was hidden under the water. And if there was no water there then anybody walking by and there were thousands of searchers, should have found the body? Yes? Because we`re going to break. Yes, Jayne?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Everybody, stay right where you are going. We have more in a moment.


GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S DAD: I have not talked to my granddaughter -- I have not heard my granddaughter`s voice since June 16th, 2008. Do not ask me that again, sir, because I will walk out of here. Do not do that to me again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t want to make it hard on you.

G. ANTHONY: Yes, you are.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The hell that the Anthonys have been through. Their granddaughter murdered; their daughter behind bars. And now another evidence dump with some startling new information.

Phonelines lighting up. Debbie, Iowa, your question or thought?

DEBBIE, IOWA (via telephone): Hi, thanks for taking my call. I was just wondering about the duct tape that the Anthonys bought. What store carried it and how many people would have access to buying that kind of tape?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Apparently it`s very, very rare, Beth Karas, but it would be highly ironic if in distributing the flyers, it would turn out that they were actually providing the prosecution with evidence to link their own daughter to the murder of their granddaughter.

KARAS: Indeed. Now I don`t think we know everything about the duct tape because there are forensic scientists who have a specialty in duct tape. I`ve seen them testify in other states and there are lot of characteristics of duct tape that can be matched up. So we don`t have enough information yet. I`m sure that in months to come we`re going to get more reports that may give us more details about the duct tape and how they are all linked together.



WEINTRAUB: Or not. Or maybe it`s not linked together at all and maybe it`s totally different.

In other words, the duct tape is just a manufacturer, is what I believe, and I don`t think it is the same duct tape.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I will say this in your defense, Jayne Weintraub, I do believe Judge Larry Seidlin that there`s an overwhelming amount of evidence in this case but I don`t know if the individual pieces are as good as the sum total.

It kind of reminds me of the Michael Jackson case where we sat there and just listened to reams of evidence but none of it really was the smoking gun. And so at the end of the day, everybody was left confused and sort of overwhelmed by minutiae, Judge.

SEIDLIN: Jane, you`re right on target. What`s happening here, the state attorney`s strategy is, they are going to dump more evidence out there; the defense attorney is going to need more time, so the trial is going to be put off.

The prosecutor wants the trial to be put off because they want her sitting in the can. The longer she sits in the can, they want a confession. Or they want a plea bargain because they don`t have the smoking gun. It`s a circumstantial evidence case. And the prosecutor is looking for the death penalty. That`s a tough -- that`s a tough road to hold.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think you`re absolutely right on target, judge.

Bill Stanton, private investigator, now the prosecution has pushed this back, this trial, to May 2011, or March, spring of 2011.

STANTON: Oh, no. I totally agree with the judge and you, Jane. The circumstantial evidence goes beyond, beyond.

You know, let`s not forget, this child was missing for a month and she was out partying and what did she say? She was doing her own investigation. They were holding the kid. It just goes beyond what a normal person would deem normal.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re going to stay on top of this.

Of course, you`re watching ISSUES on HLN.

Thank you fabulous panel.