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NANCY GRACE

Trouble With Kids in Jackson Family Home?

Aired March 4, 2010 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the ongoing investigation surrounding music icon Michael Jackson. After a judge brings down the hammer on Jackson`s live-in doctor, Conrad Murray, now charged with killing the superstar, bombshell tonight. In the last hours, California investigators race to the Jackson home on reports Michael Jackson`s three young children in danger. The whole thing up for grabs. This the third time, according to reports, child services called to the home. Are Jackson`s three children, now without a father or basically a mother, in danger?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. This is Jermajesty, and you (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news. Social workers reportedly arrive at the Jackson family estate after allegations Michael Jackson`s children, Prince Michael, Paris and Blanket, may have been in danger of getting hit with an electric stun gun.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. This is Jermajesty, and you (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is where they belong. We`re the parents and we got other kids of their size. They love those kids, and we love those kids, too. We`re going to take care of them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Media reports swirl that one of Jermaine Jackson`s children aims the device at Michael Jackson`s kids. A Jackson family attorney denies the report, saying that the boy only tested the stun gun on a piece of paper and never threatened his cousins with it. Family services reportedly back at the home to question family members and staff. Why?

PARIS JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S DAUGHTER: Ever since I was born, Daddy has been the best father you could ever imagine! And I just want to say I love him so much!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And live to Florida, a Bible-based pastor busted for child porn. How many children has he come into contact with?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Florida pastor is arrested and behind bars on pornography charges.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s pretty disgusting.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eric Spandorf is listed as an associate pastor and a youth crisis counselor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s unbelievable.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say 43-year-old pastor Eric Spandorf downloaded and tried to distribute porn.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I asked him, when I learned that he was a reverend, just, like, you know, I thought reverends took an oath to protect those who can`t protect themselves. Like, how did this happen? And he had no answer for me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On Pastor Spandorf`s personal Web page, he lists romantic evenings and watching movies as his interests. Really? Was he referring to an evening of watching porn? Police arrested Pastor Spandorf and charged him with 66 counts of possessing porn and multiple counts of trying to distribute it. Law enforcement now asking neighbors to call police if they ever saw children in the home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anything like that is heinous, especially when it comes to children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The pastor in jail tonight on half a million dollars bond.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cops say on the DVDs, they found little boys as young as 6 and as old as 14 put into horribly degrading situations. Sadly, the price of this child porn varied as, quote, "Collectors would pay more for the children they liked."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It can be anything from 5 bucks to $1,000. What am I willing to pay?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight. In the ongoing investigation surrounding Michael Jackson, in the last hours, investigators race to the Jackson home. Are Jackson`s three children in danger?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were Michael Jackson`s kids in danger of being shocked by a stun gun?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. This is Jermajesty, and you (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A social worker from the LA Department of Child Services sent to the Jackson family estate in Encino, California, to investigate allegations, allegations that Jermaine Jackson`s 13-year-old son allegedly aimed a stun gun at Michael Jackson`s children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. This is Jermajesty, and you (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Jackson`s three kids, Prince Michael, Paris and Blanket, living with grandma Katherine Jackson in the estate since their father, Michael Jackson, died.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Katherine and the kids -- it`s beautiful. I mean, I saw the interaction when I went to the home, and they love their grandma.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Jackson attorney says the claims Jackson`s children were in danger aren`t true, that Jermaine Jackson`s son ordered a stun gun on line and only tested it in the bathroom on a piece of paper. But the attorney admitted a stun gun was in the home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The children will be fine. They`re with my mother right now, and my kids. It`s very simple when it comes to the children. The will is what it is. It`s the will from my brother because that`s the way he would have done it. That`s the way he did it. My mother gets full custody of the children. And the children will be fine. They`re with my mother right now, and my kids. And anybody that tries to contest this on any level, whether it`s with the executors or whether it`s with anything, they`re not living out Michael`s wishes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to "ET`s" Kevin Frazier, joining us from LA. You know, that doesn`t make me feel any better for one of the brothers to say, They`re with my mom and my brother. That`s who they were with when DFACS, Department of Family and Children Services, raced to the home not once, not twice, but three times. Three times.

KEVIN FRAZIER, "ET": Nancy, I talked to a member of the Jackson family twice today. And here`s the thing. Jaffar, who is 13 years old, ordered a stun gun on line. He got that stun gun. He tested it. As soon as adults heard that he was testing...

GRACE: Stop, stop, stop. Who is supervising these children? How are they ordering stun guns on line? Who all is living in the house?

FRAZIER: Nancy, he`s a 13-year-old, and as we know, teens in their time can get out of control. And here`s the thing. I talked to a family member today, who said first things, immediately, Internet time has been limited. Number two, when the adults heard that stun being gun tested, they immediately confiscated it. They were very upset with Jaffar about ordering that over the Internet.

GRACE: Now, wait. Just stop right there. Dr. Bethany Marshall -- we`re taking your calls live. OK, a stun gun. What if it had been a real gun and they ran when they heard it being tested? It would be too late. What is -- did you see all the people? It`s, like, 14 to 30 people in that house.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, DFACS took this very seriously. They rushed over. It is a stun gun. This could have been used to harm another child. There are 14 people living in the house. And I wonder, where are the parental figures? Do they know what to do with the Internet? Kids can`t -- a 13-year-old can`t be in his room alone going on the Internet. A 13-year-old needs to be on the Internet in a living room or in a public space with the monitor or the screen faced out so that the parents can monitor it.

Having said that, 13-year-olds do like guns. They do like weapons. Back in the day, it was BB guns, right? But that makes an argument even all the more for monitoring...

GRACE: Dr. Bethany...

MARSHALL: ... these children.

GRACE: ... I don`t know where you grew up, but I did not see a gun until I became a prosecutor and had to get them into evidence, OK? We didn`t see guns in the home of any type.

We`re taking your calls live. Mindy, Missouri. Hi, Mindy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. First of all, I want to say I never miss your show. Love you.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I have a comment and a question. Two weeks ago, you did a story on Alyssa Blanton (ph), who was murdered by a stalker in Florida. She was my cousin. And I want to thank you so much for doing that story.

GRACE: God bless you. I`m just sick about what happened to her and the judge allowing it to happen. But go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it was horrible. My question was, if DFS decides that these kids cannot stay in that home, then the mother has already said she doesn`t want to raise them -- well, where do they go?

GRACE: What about it, Ellie Jostad?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, that`s a really good question. Apparently, DFACS has not taken any action to remove the children from the house right now. They still are in care of their grandmother, Katherine (ph) Jackson, who is 80 years old. And you`ll remember that Debbie Rowe, who is the mother of the two oldest children, Prince Michael and Paris Jackson -- she made a deal with Debbie -- or rather, Katherine Jackson to relinquish her custodial rights to these kids, or at least let her have custody. Now, we still don`t know who Blanket`s mother is. We`ve never known who Blanket`s mother is. So it`s unclear where the kids would go if they were removed from that home.

GRACE: Take a listen to Debbie Rowe.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you see the pictures on Radar today with the two boys fighting (INAUDIBLE)

DEBBIE ROWE, MICHAEL JACKSON`S EX-WIFE: No, I haven`t seen it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think it`s chaos and madness inside the house?

ROWE: I haven`t seen it (INAUDIBLE) I haven`t seen it yet, thank goodness.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know, if the department of child health services have been called (INAUDIBLE)

ROWE: I don`t know about what?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don`t know what the...

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) sounds like it`s out of control.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you not know about the stun gun incident?

ROWE: (INAUDIBLE) specifics about anything.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, not even about the stun gun incident or anything?

ROWE: Well, yes, that`s been reported, but I don`t know any of the details of that (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you allowed to (INAUDIBLE) comment on anything? Yes, are you allowed to contact your kids?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) worried about Blanket, though?

ROWE: Of course I`m worried about (INAUDIBLE) Why would I not be worried about (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, over and above...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is Debbie Rowe on TMZ.com. So of course, the mom hasn`t gone over there to check on the children. Nothing. She`s given a "no comment."

To Cindy in Ohio. Hi, Cindy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love you. Watch you every night.

GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why would CPS be rushing out to their home when they wait, like, three or four days to rush out to somebody else`s home?

GRACE: You know, that`s...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t understand that.

GRACE: That is so true. Susan Moss -- let`s unleash the lawyers, Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Peter Odom. Susan, usually, we hear stories about DFACS, children services, waiting until it`s too late to show up. Now they`re here three times. Why the discrepancy? And with all these people in the home, do you really think anybody`s watching the children?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Well, I`ll tell you something. Something more serious than just a taser gun probably happened. And Grandma J. better take this seriously because it`s like the taser doesn`t even phase her. I mean, she really can be in serious jeopardy of losing these kids.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mrs. Jackson will take care of the kids. She loves them dearly. They will have such wonderful care. And there`s lots of kids, grandkids. They play with one another.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. This is Jermajesty, and you (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A stun gun showed up at the house where Michael Jackson`s kids live, and now a county social worker has made a house call. Their grandmother`s lawyer says Jermaine Jackson`s 13-year-old son ordered it on line. He opened the package along in a bathroom and then tested it on a piece of paper. The family lawyer says Katherine Jackson heard the noise and immediately took it away. The lawyer denied reports that the teen had aimed it at Michael Jackson`s kids.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These three children adjust to their new normal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Jackson`s death really changes the whole situation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Michael`s biggest concern, in my opinion, was always the safety of his children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone sought the same objective, doing what was best for the children of Debbie Rowe and Michael Jackson. Today`s result, after the tragic death of Michael Jackson, eliminates uncertainty and offers some stability to the lives of these children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. This is Jermajesty, and you (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

Hi. This is Jermajesty, and you (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

Hi. This is Jermajesty, and...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s video from Radaronline. It`s Jermaine Jackson`s 13- year-old son beating his younger brother. Now, Joe Jackson`s attorney, Brian Oxman, says he doesn`t approve, but the video just shows two guys, quote, "messing around."

OK, let`s go straight out to Alexis Tereszcuk. She`s there at the compound. Alexis, how long ago did DFACS leave?

ALEXIS TERESZCUK, RADARONLINE.COM: They just left a little while ago, Nancy. It`s -- the ongoing investigation is just happening. This is the third time that they`ve been here. And they`re obviously really concerned about these kids. Are they safe in this home? There are 14 people are living in this house, and granted, it`s a big house, but 14 people is a lot of people. And they don`t have any adult supervision for the children. So DCF is very, very concerned about the safety of these kids.

GRACE: Alexis, who is living in the home?

TERESZCUK: Katherine Jackson is the matriarch of the family. She is there. Michael`s three children are there. Jermaine Jackson`s two children are there. Here`s where it gets a little complicated. The mother of Jermaine`s two children also lives in the home. She has two children with another Jackson brother, Randy Jackson. Randy Jackson and Jermaine Jackson live in the home, both with the new women that they`re together with.

There`s also another man, who`s a 25-year-old rap star who`s rumored, but it`s never been proven, that he is Michael Jackson`s other son. That`s just a few of the people that are living in the house. It`s a lot. I hope I got them all.

GRACE: Because Alexis, we`ve heard reports up to 30 people at any given time living there. It is chaos, and nobody`s watching the children.

TERESZCUK: No. There are so many children that are here. You know, most of them are home schooled and -- but the home schooling isn`t, like, you know, a structured all day long thing. And they`re here, and the parents aren`t -- well, Michael`s obviously not here, and there just isn`t somebody that`s supervising them. They are just really running wild. They`re playing on the Internet there. Apparently -- you know, they`re -- the boy is playing with a stun gun and really threatening one of his little cousins. It -- they`re -- it seems like there`s a lot of violence going on in this house.

GRACE: Back to Kevin Frazier with "ET." It`s our understanding there have reports of up to three or more stun guns that these children have access to.

FRAZIER: One stun gun, Nancy. There was one stun gun in the house. And while I think Alexis does a great job, I do want to point out that it`s an 11,000-square-foot house on three acres. It`s a compound. So of course, you have room for a lot of people there. There`s also a lot of staff there.

And I think the thing that the Jackson family is upset with and the members that I talked to today, that they feel like there is someone inside that is calling child protective services because it creates a good story, and then they`re reporting that story -- they`re selling that story to one of these on-line services. They feel like right now, the kids are supervised.

Jaffar is in a lot of trouble. His dad was out of town. When his dad gets back, he is in big, big trouble. It`s not going unpunished. They`re not running wild in there. But remember, the Jackson family is big business. I get it, you get it. We all know the Jackson family is big business.

GRACE: Why are you saying they`re big business?

FRAZIER: Because the ability to tell a story, to say, OK, look -- oh, my gosh, it`s chaos in the house, they`re out of control, there`s this going on, there`s that going on. You know, cousins do come to visit. People are in and out of there. But there is sufficient staff. There is also sufficient supervision. A 13-year-old...

GRACE: Really?

FRAZIER: ... did something behind...

GRACE: There`s...

FRAZIER: A 13-year-old did...

GRACE: There`s sufficient supervision?

FRAZIER: ... something behind his parents` -- a 13-year-old did something behind their parents` back. And even if you go on Radaronline, Nancy, and read the comments of that video of Jaffar smacking Jermajesty, read the comments that the readers are writing in, saying that, Wow, well, they`re kids, and they do those kinds of crazy things.

GRACE: What about it, Bethany Marshall?

MARSHALL: I think it`s appropriate to be outraged because if we`re not outraged, how can the family and the children be outraged? And the family should be grateful that someone called child protective services because there are things called, people called mandated reporters. Whoever`s teaching those children in the home -- I don`t know who`s teaching them, but those school teachers are mandated reporters. The security guards are not mandated reporters, but by conscience, they should be. And if security guards are raising these children, who are these children going to emulate? Security guards with taser guns!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S FATHER: I hope that people will understand some of the problems -- they were saying I was too rough with the family. And everybody -- I never beat Michael in my life. But I did spank the family once in a while. Katherine spanked them more than I did. (INAUDIBLE) blame it all on me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Many in law enforcement recommend stun guns over real weapons. To show you how it works, I`m about to receive 50,000 volts of electricity. Do it. Oh! Oh! Oh! It hurts!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: All right, back to you, Kevin Frazier, "ET." No big deal. Did you see what it did to a grown man? No, no! Wait a minute. Wait a minute!

FRAZIER: Nancy...

GRACE: I`m sorry to...

FRAZIER: ... well, then, you should be upset how a 13-year-old could get a stun gun.

GRACE: Don`t make me cut your mike!

FRAZIER: Go ahead, Nancy.

GRACE: Don`t make me!

FRAZIER: Go ahead. Go ahead.

GRACE: Do you have children?

FRAZIER: Yes, I do, and that`s why I understand this situation. I don`t think...

GRACE: Really?

FRAZIER: I don`t think that the problem...

GRACE: Three hundred thousand volts of electricity. You know what?

FRAZIER: Nancy, it`s...

GRACE: I think you are...

FRAZIER: ... a big problem...

GRACE: ... sucking up to try to get some kind of Jackson interview...

FRAZIER: OK.

GRACE: ... and be the big man on TV because you`re totally ignoring...

FRAZIER: Nancy, and you know what? I think that you`re not facing the truth. How is a 13-year-old ordering a stun gun on line? That`s a big problem. There`s no...

GRACE: Yes? That`s what I just said!

FRAZIER: Sometimes the truth is the truth. It`s a problem that...

GRACE: Yes, I know it`s a problem.

FRAZIER: ... he could get it on line. It`s not a problem...

GRACE: You`re the one saying...

FRAZIER: ... that the parents had.

GRACE: ... there`s not a problem!

FRAZIER: No, no. I said I am not blaming the parents. I`m saying that once they realized that he had it, they took it from him. That doesn`t mean I`m sucking up to someone. That means I`m telling the truth, and the truth is...

GRACE: OK...

FRAZIER: ... is that once they found out, they stopped it.

GRACE: Yes, you already said that. Alexis Tereszcuk, isn`t it true there are reports that there`s a -- there were three stun guns?

TERESZCUK: Yes, Nancy, there were. There was not just one. There were three stun guns. We have -- we reported that. And one, two, three things that can harm somebody else? This is really dangerous to have in the house.

GRACE: Apparently, nobody knows what these children are doing in the Jackson home. DFACS now there three times!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It`s inside this house at 1302 East Columbus where police say Paul Primavera downloaded child porn then sold it to an undercover officer. In January detectives charged him with 58 counts of child pornography, then Monday, police arrested his roommate, Eric Spandorf, charging him with 66 counts of child porn and two counts of intent to distribute it.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A pastor -- he`s supposed to be among the community`s most trusted. But one pastor is facing multiple charges for possession and attempting to distribute pornography.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cops say on the DVDs, they found little boys as young as 6 and as old as 14 put into horribly degrading situations.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Viewing what no child should ever do. Ever.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sadly, the price of this child porn varied as, quote, "collectors would pay more for the children they liked."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It can be anything from 5 bucks to $1,000. What am I willing to pay for the material that I know is illegal. And I`m trying to -- I`m trying to maybe finish a series that I want of that particular victim.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A bio of Pastor Spandorf says he turned to the church out of a feeling of despair and disappointment. Spandorf also listed as a youth crisis counselor.

Now authorities tell neighbors to call in if they ever saw children inside the pastor`s home. Pastor`s roommate also busted on pornography charges.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BORGER: One word. Freak.

Out to you, Jose Patino with the "Tampa Tribune". This guy is a viable-based preacher? And he`s busted for child porn?

JOSE PATINO, REPORTER, THE TAMPA TRIBUNE (via phone): Yes, that`s right, Nancy. He was busted with his roommate, and his roommate was busted in January who also said that -- Paul Robert Primavera who also is a -- says he`s a minister as well. Although it`s not confirmed on the church`s Web site.

GRACE: Out to Stacey Newman. Stacey, what more can you tell me?

STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, this all started basically with an undercover sting on Spandorf`s roommate, Paul Primavera. Basically he ended up selling child porn to an undercover cop. His arrest led to cops searching this home where they found hundreds of DVDs of child porn.

The child porn, Nancy, so disgusting I can`t even tell you in detail, Nancy, what cops had to see on those DVDs.

GRACE: I know that some of the victims we know of were 6 years old -- girls and boys.

NEWMAN: Absolutely. Most of the DVDs, Nancy, were young boys, 6, 7, 8 years old, performing sex acts, Nancy, on adult males.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the line. Sheeba, Illinois, hi, Sheeba.

SHEEBA, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: Hi, sweetie. You`re going to have to rest your voice tonight when you get home.

GRACE: Let me tell you something. I got this from little Lucy.

(LAUGHTER)

SHEEBA: God, no, love.

GRACE: Yes. Started in her ear, went to her eye, went to mommy`s throat.

SHEEBA: I feel more sorry for Lucy than I do you, honey.

GRACE: I do, too. I do, too. What`s your question, love?

SHEEBA: My question is we send our children to Sunday school. When we`re sitting out in the main auditorium, and this guy -- we can`t even trust our children in Sunday school now where they`re supposed to be learning right from wrong?

And I wonder, has this guy -- how long has he been raping children? And will they prosecute him and not give him a slap on the wrist? And you know I see it coming. They`re going to put him in a bullet proof vest, even take him to court in.

GRACE: And then I guarantee you, his defense attorney is going to argue insanity.

Let`s unleash the lawyers. Sue Moss, New York, Renee Rockwell, Atlanta, Peter Odom, Atlanta.

OK, Renee, you and Peter, give me your best shot. Renee?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy -- OK, Nancy, this is not a case that`s going to go to trial obviously, but if law enforcement is smart, they`ll go to him and try to get to the head of the snake. Because, after all, these guys are not going to be selling this unless people are buying this garbage. And what they`re going to be most interested in are who the people producing it.

GRACE: Put her up.

Renee, that is complete B.S. It`s not like drug trafficking. You`re never going to stop prostitution. You`re never going to stop child porn. Trying to use him to get to the head of the snake? Uh-uh. This guy needs to go to jail for life.

ROCKWELL: Oh, Nancy --

GRACE: What about it, Odom?

ROCKWELL: He`ll go to jail, but not for life.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The first thing --

GRACE: Don`t count on it, little girl.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: Go ahead, Odom.

ODOM: The first thing that police are going to do is to try and figure out whether this guy is a child molester or a distributor or a creator of child pornography. He might just be an entrepreneur. And if that`s what the police determined, that can look good for him.

GRACE: Whoa. Whoa. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Peter, don`t say he`s an entrepreneur.

ODOM: Meaning he`s only in it for the money. I`m not believing what I`m telling you. I`m not excusing the conduct.

GRACE: I don`t give -- OK

ODOM: But it makes a difference to the police where he`s creating it --

GRACE: Just stop. Stop.

ODOM: -- or just selling it.

GRACE: What you are saying is wrong on so many levels, Peter. I mean, listen, you have children.

ODOM: It`s what the police will do.

GRACE: No. Susan Moss, when we start to call a child pornographer an entrepreneur, there`s a problem.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY & CHILD ADVOCATE: Absolutely. This guys a man of the cloth and he`s selling pictures of kids with their clothes off? Shame. Shame on him and shame on us if we don`t put him away for life.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Charmaine, Louisiana. Hi, Charmaine.

CHARMAINE, CALLER FROM LOUISIANA: Hi, Nancy. How are you doing?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

CHARMAINE: How do they know that he`s not doing it in church?

GRACE: Excellent question. Stacy Newman, do we know if this guy is creating it, selling it, producing it? What do we know?

NEWMAN: Well, that`s also now what police are trying to investigate. Most of these DVDs were produced overseas, Nancy, but -- get this -- they`re asking neighbors if they`ve seen any children coming in and out of that home to please contact police because they`re also looking into a possible link that maybe they produced these videos inside that home.

GRACE: OK. Stacey, who`s the guy he`s pictured with?

NEWMAN: This is his roommate who also has told cops he is also a man of the cloth, Nancy, a pastor. This is 54-year-old Paul Primavera who lived in the home. And on top of that, Nancy, there`s also a third roommate who lived in that home, but at this time, cops are saying he`s not connected.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Dell in Colorado. Hi, Dell.

DELL, CALLER FROM COLORADO: Nancy, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

DELL: I can`t understand how do these people of cloth, prayer, get away with this stuff and like the priest in the Vatican, the Pope, transfer any priests all over.

GRACE: You know what, Dell? And it`s still happening.

What about it, Bethany? How does that happen?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Dell is right. I don`t know if these men are really ministers. Who ordained them? A bible church?

I think these guys -- I think we have two pedophiles who banned together. It`s not unusual for one pedophile to find another because they really understand each other. I think they got ordination certificates off of the Internet. They started a church online and on that church`s Web site they deal with teen crisis counseling which means, I think, they`re trying to lure in disturbed troubled youth, potentially so that they can bless them.

I don`t think these are really men of the cloth, Nancy.

GRACE: What about it, Ron Shindel, former NYPD deputy inspector? How do you investigate a case like this?

RON SHINDEL, FORMER NYPD DEPUTY INSPECTOR: Well, Nancy, it was a two- month investigation. That tells me they found what they needed to find, they moved in pretty quickly, and they grabbed both of these guys.

What they`re going to do is look to see if there`s any computer involved on their side. Maybe they`re producing these CDs or DVDs at home. Maybe they`re collecting the images at home.

If that happens and it`s on the computer, there`s going to be forensic evidence left all over that computer. They`re going to be able to go in, find when they made them, find how they got it and possibly go back and see exactly sites that they`re culling this pornography from.

This is going to be a good investigation, an easy investigation if there`s a computer involved in the home and they get a search warrant and go in and get it.

GRACE: To Dr. Marty Makary -- Dr. Marty, some of these children are as young as 6 years old. How did they rehabilitate after this?

DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: Well, it`s similar to post-traumatic stress disorder. These people often never recover. These children are scarred for a long time and they have trouble in development.

You know, now, 20 percent of pornography involves children according to the National Center for Exploited Children so this is a growing problem.

And when I look at this gentlemen I see the two great cancers or our society -- pornography addiction and morbid obesity.

GRACE: Everyone, a quick break. We are taking your calls live. Quickly to our family album. Here are the twins. See what they`re doing here. Here`s Lucy in the sand box and here is -- here`s Lucy and John David. Oh, yes. This is when we`re practicing for our Easter egg hunt.

And now your photos. Tennessee friend (INAUDIBLE) Stevens (ph) at 101. She watches our show every night. Loves her four daughters, quilting and her flower and vegetable garden.

Georgia friends Rebecca and twins (INAUDIBLE) and Shane in the Army. They turned 28 and mom is hoping for a double wedding.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A Florida pastor is arrested and behind bars on pornography charges.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s pretty disgusting.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Eric Spandorf -- he`s listed as an associate pastor and a youth crisis counselor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s unbelievable.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say 43-year-old pastor Eric Spandorf downloaded and tried to distribute porn.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I asked him when I learned that he was a reverend, it`s like, you know, I thought reverends took an oath to protect those that can`t protect themselves. Like, how did this happen? And he had no answer for me.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: On Pastor Spandorf`s personal Web page, he lists romantic evenings and watching movies as his interest. Really? Was he referring to an evening of watching porn?

Police arrested Pastor Spandorf and charged him with 66 counts of possessing porn and multiple counts of trying to distribute it. Law enforcement now asking neighbors to call police if they ever saw children in the home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anything like that is heinous, especially when it comes to children.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The pastor in jail tonight on $500,000 bond.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say Paul Primavera down loaded child porn then sold it to an undercover officer. In January, detectives charged him with 58 counts of child pornography. Then Monday, police arrested his roommate, Eric Spandorf, charging him with 66 counts of child porn and two counts of intent to distribute it.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It`s inside this house at 1302 East Columbus where police say Paul Primavera downloaded child porn then sold it to an undercover officer.

In January detectives charged him with 58 counts of child pornography, then Monday, police arrested his roommate, Eric Spandorf, charging him with 66 counts of child porn and two counts of intent to distribute it.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Spandorf and his two roommates lived in this Tampa home together. One claims he had no idea what was happening. The other, Robert Paul Primavera, was also arrested. Accused of selling child pornography DVDs to an undercover Tampa police officer.

It is a crime that even long-time detectives say makes them sick.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And he lists himself as a youth counselor. How many children has he come in contact with, this pastor?

Out to the lines, Diane in Tennessee. Hi, dear.

DIANE, CALLER FROM TENNESSEE: Hi. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good dear, what`s your question?

DIANE: Nancy, I was a Girl Scout leader for eight years. And I -- my background was checked out entirely. What is it that people do not do background checks with people, especially youth counseling, you know, with the churches and all?

This would help solve a lot of these problems with these people, especially the ones that are coming in contact with children.

GRACE: Diane, he was not part of a -- let me say -- structured organized church like the United Methodists or the Episcopals, Presbyterians that have a hierarchy and the pastors have to be filtered and pass psychological tests. But how does it happen, Bethany?

MARSHALL: Well, again, I think we have to remember this -- as you said, this guy was not part of a structured church. I think what he did was he set himself up as a man of the cloth in order to lure unsuspecting children and he really preyed on parents as well.

Because parents believe that a pastor can do no wrong. They look at schoolteachers this way, ministers this way. But I tell all the parents in my practice no one should be more interested in your children than you.

If someone is more interested in your children than you are, something is wrong. You want their teacher, their pastors, their Sunday schoolteachers to be slightly disinterested because that is what is normal.

GRACE: Let`s go to the lawyers. Sue Moss, Renee Rockwell who says he`s not looking at life. Each one of these DVDs is another count. You stack it together, it`s life.

ROCKWELL: Yes, one after the other. I agree with that, Nancy. But - -

GRACE: Sue Moss?

MOSS: This pastor is a disaster. Absolutely, they`re going to stack them one on top of the other. I mean the community is going to be outraged and rightly so.

GRACE: OK, Renee, go ahead. Second verse, same as the first.

ROCKWELL: Nancy, I just -- I am convinced that this is not a guy that is going to get life. However, upon further investigation, if they do find out that there`s been some sexual offenses, then I would -- I would admit and agree with you that he`s looking at some real hard time.

But I still think that this is a case where they might be able to use him to get at a bigger, better deal.

GRACE: Please, look at him. Come on.

ROCKWELL: Not much bigger.

GRACE: You think this guy is going to be a great state witness? Go ahead, Peter Odom. But don`t call him an entrepreneur again. OK? Because I can get (INAUDIBLE) through this camera.

ODOM: After a two-month investigate, if they haven`t come up with any sex offenses, they`re probably not going to charge him with that. This is a distribution of child porn case.

GRACE: It`s not true. It`s not true.

ROCKWELL: This is a distribution of child porn case. He`s going to get a heavy prison sentence, unlikely to be life.

GRACE: That is not true. This investigation is not over yet. They haven`t even identified these children yet.

To you, Jose Patino, who are these kids?

PATINO: Well, the kids are -- range from ages 6 to 14 years old, and they mostly are videos of boys. There are some girls, but mostly videos of boys.

GRACE: Do we have any idea who they are, Stacey? Stacey Newman, do we have any idea who they are?

NEWMAN: We don`t know at this time, Nancy. Cops are still investigating.

GRACE: Out to the lines, to Stacy in Georgia. Hi, dear.

STACY, CALLER FROM GEORGIA: Hello?

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

STACY: My question is this. It -- happens so many times in Tampa before. I want to know why don`t they make a stiffer penalty for this man so that the next pastor doesn`t do the same thing?

GRACE: What about it, Ron Shindel? I mean if they don`t give this guy the max, then, you know, we all need to just pack up and go home.

SHINDEL: Well, Nancy, I think he`s going to get -- if he`s convicted he`ll get a heavy sentence, but even worse than that is child molesters -- child pornographers, people like that, have very, very rough times in prison. They -- the other prisoners there don`t --

GRACE: OK, really? Name one child molester that you know of that was murdered behind bars other than one Catholic priest?

SHINDEL: Well, I can`t name a name, Nancy. But it`s routinely legend that that`s happened.

GRACE: As we go to break, happy birthday to Karen in Alabama. Newlywed, nurse, mother of son Ashton.

Happy birthday, beautiful.

And welcome back, New York friend Michael McFadden. Home after two surgeries.

Get well to Hardwick Butler, a local Boy Scout leader who helped me as a little with my science project. He`s in surgery tonight at the Mayo Clinic. Stay strong, Mr. Butler.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: As investigators continue to go through all of these disks, they haven`t found any children they believe to be from the Bay Area just yet, although they`re not ruling out the possibility.

What they are doing right now is telling all the neighbors in this area if they saw any children going inside of this house at any time to please call investigators.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He walked in looking disheveled and stunned. Eric Spandorf is accused of the unthinkable, selling child pornography out of his home where he claimed he was working as a minister.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s pretty disgusting. I mean one of the questions I asked him when I learned that he was a reverend is like, you know, I thought reverends took an oath to protect those that can`t protect themselves, like how did this happen? And he had no answer for me. None at all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To the lines, Jamie in Wisconsin. Hi, Jamie.

JAMIE, CALLER FROM WISCONSIN: Hi, Nancy. I was just wondering. Do they know of any of the adult males that are on the tape?

GRACE: Excellent question. What about it, to you, Stacey?.

NEWMAN: No, we don`t know that at this time, Nancy. Cops are still investigating. They`ve just gotten their hands on these DVDs and they`ve looked at 300 DVDs. So a lot to pour through.

GRACE: How many more did you say they`ve got to go through?

NEWMAN: Detectives looked at 300 DVDs. They`re poring over hundreds as we speak.

GRACE: You know what? To the lawyers, Sue Moss, Renee Rockwell, Peter Odom. If you stack these charges, he`s looking at 360 years behind bars. And you know what, Sue Moss? If there were not an industry called child porn, this wouldn`t have happened to these children. He needs the full 360.

MOSS: He needs the full 360 because that`s only way we`re going to stop the next pastor from doing this.

GRACE: Dr. Makary, have you ever dealt with children that are child molestation victims?

MAKARY: Yes. They show up in the emergency room frequently. They are scared. They`re frightened. They`re often shaking. They have this strange allegiance where they don`t want to report the person because they -- in a way they love certain characteristics about them. But it`s this sense of confusion that they live in and they often go on to have developmental disorders.

GRACE: You know, Dr. Makary, I`ve dealt with a lot of grownups that were -- they`re adult victims of child molestation and they never, ever are the same. They go on in life, but they`re never the same.

Let`s stop and remember Army Corporal Darryl "Ward" Linder, 23, North Carolina, killed Iraq. On a second tour awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Good Conduct. Served Afghanistan. Loved God, country, hunting, fishing. Leaves behind father Darryl, stepmother Melinda, fiancee Nicole, son Kyle.

Darryl Ward, American Hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END