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Goldman Sachs Under Fire on Capitol Hill; Interview With Dr. Phil

Aired April 27, 2010 - 22:00   ET


DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, it is mind-blowing. And I say that as a neurosurgeon.

The gang from Goldman Sachs goes before the Senate. They swear to tell the whole truth, yet not one of them admits an ounce of wrongdoing, not in the alleged ripoff that the company is accused of, not in the economic meltdown that made Goldman a fortune and wrecked millions of lives.

Senators tried to do it. Now it's our turn. We're "Keeping Them Honest."

Also tonight, beyond the outrage, why so many people simply walked past him as he bled to death. Just who was this unknown hero murdered on a sidewalk while he trying to help a total stranger, a woman, fight off a mugger? He saved her life. We're going to do our past to remember his -- "Crime & Punishment."

And Dr. Phil McGraw on America's obesity epidemic, why it's costing all of us, fat or thin, big money.

First up tonight, though: the gold grilling, Democrats and Republicans Goldman alike roasting company executives late into the night, the charges, selling investors what one senator called crap, hiding from -- the stench from investments, in fact, selling them investments that Goldman and a hedge fund billionaire designed to blow up, and, more generally, making billions on the misery of the mortgage meltdown.

So, how did the Goldman people answer all those charges?

Tom Foreman tonight is "Keeping Them Honest."


SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: Do you swear that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was all Sachs, but no violins for the Wall Street bosses, as they came under fierce attack from senators.

LEVIN: Wall Street is on the wrong side of this fight.

SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL (D), MISSOURI: You had less oversight than a pit boss in Las Vegas.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: There's no doubt their behavior was unethical.

FOREMAN: The accusation, that the financial giant knew the housing market was crashing and made billions in profit off of that knowledge, pushing Goldman's own bad investments to clients by calling them good.

Senator Carl Levin trotted out an e-mail from the firm that used an expletive when referring to one investment called Timberwolf.

LEVIN: How about the fact that you sold hundreds of millions of that deal after your people knew it was a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) deal? Does that bother you at all?

DANIEL SPARKS, FORMER PARTNER, HEAD OF MORTGAGES DEPARTMENT, GOLDMAN SACHS: I don't recall selling hundreds of millions of that deal after that.

LEVIN: How much of that "(EXPLETIVE DELETED) deal" did you sell to your clients after June 22, 2007?

SPARKS: Mr. Chairman, I don't know the answer to that. But the price would have reflected levels that they wanted to invest...

LEVIN: Oh, of course.

SPARKS: ... at that time.

LEVIN: But they don't know it's a -- you didn't tell them you thought it was a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) deal.

SPARKS: Well, I didn't say that.

LEVIN: No. Who did? Your people, internally. You knew it was a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) deal, and that's what your...

SPARKS: And again, I...

LEVIN: ... e-mail showed.

FOREMAN: Repeatedly current and former company officers proved difficult to pin down.




FOREMAN: Senators grew exasperated. LEVIN: You have the responsibility to tell that client of your adverse interests. That's my question.

SPARKS: Sure. Mr. Chairman, I'm just trying to understand.


LEVIN: No, I think you understand, and I don't think you want to answer.

FOREMAN (on camera): The men in the hot seat made this clear, however. Yes, they hedged their losses as the mortgage markets crumbled, but they have no regrets.

SPARKS: Regret to me means something that you feel like you did wrong, and -- and I don't have that.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Chief executive Lloyd Blankfein had the final word. He pocketed tens of millions in bonuses even as his company took a $10 billion taxpayer bailout which has been paid back, and he insists his team did nothing wrong.

LEVIN: Is there not a conflict when you sell something to somebody, and then are determined to bet against that same security, and you don't disclose that to the person you're selling it to?


SEN. CARL LEVIN: Do you see a problem?

LLOYD BLANKFEIN, CEO, GOLDMAN SACHS: In the context of market- making, that is not a conflict.

FOREMAN: Maybe, but the Securities and Exchange Commission has filed civil charges against Goldman Sachs, charges the firm denies and will fight vigorously.

Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.


GUPTA: All right, one note on the bigger picture now: While Goldman execs were living down to Main Street's beliefs, fair or not, that they and others on Wall Street are crooks, Republican senator voted for a second straight day to block debate on tougher regulations.

They say they're simply trying to make the bill better. After a day like today, though, it's going to be a tough sell.

The "Raw Politics" now on that, as well as the Goldman grilling, with CNN's Christine Romans and Ali Velshi, both in Washington.

A busy day for both of you following today's testimony. Thanks for joining us.

Christine, you just spoke with Lloyd Blankfein I think right before we went to air.

And just stick with me here. I want to play a quick clip.



ROMANS: Do you think that you made the case that Goldman Sachs did not make the recession worse or even caused the recession? Because that's the perception in that room today and on Main Street.

BLANKFEIN: I did the best to describe the role that Goldman Sachs played. But, listen, I have to -- I have to accept that, as a financial institution and an influential financial institution, we share some burden for the overleveraging that took place in this country.


GUPTA: You know, Christine, I think that may be the most contrite that I sort of heard. I don't think we heard Goldman execs take any responsibility for what happened in the credit meltdown.

They said that they were sorry people got hurt, but they did nothing wrong. But he sounded a bit contrite there. How does he sound to you?

ROMANS: That was the most contrite that I have heard him. And I went on to challenge him, well, what were those burdens? How did you increase the burden? And he said, we were involved in the mortgage market. We were involved in the -- in this whole market that allowed more credit to go out there, too much credit than was probably right.

But he didn't say they made specific mistakes. I challenged him on the mistakes. Well, what did you do wrong? What would you have done differently? And he just said he was part of a system, part of a system that created -- that was too much of a bubble and that this where is we are today.

And they have also -- they have also said that they are -- are ready for some dynamic new kinds of regulation. They know a new day is coming. They really do. But I'm telling you, in that hearing room, Sanjay -- and Ali will back me up -- in that hearing room, you did not hear Goldman Sachs executives say, we're sorry, we did something wrong, we helped contribute to the financial crisis with our huge financial engineering or our bets in the market.

You didn't hear that in that hearing.

GUPTA: Ali, as you look back on this day, multiple hours you were in that hearing room, along with Christine, is there a winner? Did someone win the day?

ALI VELSHI, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: They started at 10:00 this morning and went for 10 hours.


VELSHI: And I have to tell you, Sanjay, I'm like most of our viewers. I couldn't care less about sitting around at hearings. This was like a prizefight.

For those people who don't know Carl Levin, he is a prosecutor by training. And you saw that. He gave this everything he had. He was relentless.


GUPTA: He swore a lot, too.

VELSHI: He swore a lot, too.


VELSHI: A lot of potty-mouthing there.

He gave it to Lloyd Blankfein. Lloyd Blankfein gave it back. I mean, this was like watching the end rounds in something. And I don't think there was a winner. I think, bottom line is, you saw two people talking from two different perspectives, the senators probably representing -- by the way, on both parties -- this was bipartisan -- the senators probably representing the view of most Americans: I don't get what these Wall Streeters do and why you do it.

And the Goldman Sachs guys looking around in puzzlement, saying, why are you all mad at us? We were just doing our job, bringing buyers and sellers together...


VELSHI: ... and keeping the market going like oil going through your engine.

It was very puzzling to watch this fight. It's like two guys punching around each other. They were never on the same page.


GUPTA: Well, it is puzzling for a lot of people.

And, Christine, I want to hear from you, but also the interview with Lloyd Blankfein was pretty fascinating. Let's quickly listen to another clip.



ROMANS: What will you do to be different? How are going to make -- do you need to be regulated better, regulated more? What were the mistakes?

BLANKFEIN: I think, on the mistakes, we were part of a system that introduced too much credit and too loose credit into the -- and -- and which served to create -- which served to build up the bubble.

ROMANS: Right.

BLANKFEIN: And we played a role in that. We financed companies that were perhaps a little bit too leveraged. And we did real estate transactions that may have been a little bit too leveraged. And that played a role in creating the bubble, which ultimately broken, and the consequences of the last two years bear that out.


GUPTA: Christine, as you listen to him there again, and reflect on the entire day, are Blankfein and his company better off than before today's hearing?

ROMANS: I don't know about you guys, but it seems like he is just barely saying that he was part of the problem in some way, almost trying to get the right words to say, yes -- yes, we were part of this, but we weren't a big part of this.

I don't know if that was necessarily a mea culpa. At the end of the day, this was 10 hours of just bruising testimony and bruising grilling. And I will agree with Ali. It was a culture clash, the perspective of Congress, the Senate panel in this case, and the perspective of Wall Street.

And they -- it was almost like they were speaking a different language to each other. And I don't know what the end game is. I don't know where they both go from here. There is an SEC case that will play itself out. But I don't know if Goldman has fixed its reputation problem.

VELSHI: Yes, I agree. I don't think we're any further than we were before this thing started.

I will tell you this, though. I think Goldman -- I think Blankfein, when he was talking to Christine, is pleading to the wrong -- the wrong charge. It would be nice if we could distract everybody and say, hey, we're responsible for there being too much money around and all that.

They're being accused of something very specific, and that is double-dealing.



VELSHI: So, to admit that you were responsible for there being too much credit around, yay. We know that already. What about the fact that you're being accused of double-dealing?

But we didn't get it. We didn't really -- really get to that today. They just argued around to each other.

GUPTA: You know, Ali, as you know, I come to you for financial advice all the time, right? And doctors don't know a lot about finances. But let me ask you this, without trying to sound glib. Do the senators, do you think, understand what's going on here? Some of this is pretty complicated stuff.

VELSHI: Well, you know, we spent the first half of the day where it wasn't Blankfein. It was six other executives from Goldman Sachs.

And there was definitely this disconnect. The senators were just piling on these guys, and they were giving very short, sort of nondescript answers.

When Blankfein got on there, he fought back. And I think the impression he gave a lot of people is, you guys don't know what you're talking about, so be careful with your questions. And by the end of it, this was really a Carl Levin-Lloyd Blankfein show. Everybody else who was just hurling insults at the Goldman guys had sort of backed off, because they weren't getting anywhere with it.

This was a smart conversation between two guys. I think Carl Levin knows what he's talking about. I think the others were hurling a lot of accusations: You're like Vegas. You're like -- you're -- you're gamblers, and all this.

They got down to brass tacks.

GUPTA: All right, a lot more to come, I'm sure, on this.

Christine Romans, Ali Velshi, thanks so much for joining us.

And just a quick reminder as well about Christine's interview with Lloyd Blankfein: You can see much more of it, extended portions of it, tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," 6:00 Eastern.

As always, you can find a lot more online as well at, including a complete rundown of the players at Goldman and their roles, alleged or admitted, in the entire scandal.

And, while you're there, by the way, let us know what you think. The live chat is up and running.

Up next, though: the epidemic of violence taking the lives of so many children in Chicago. We're going to tell you about the extreme measures some are demanding right now and the code of silence that makes any progress at stopping the violence seem impossible.

Also, another installment on this important medical cost series -- the enormous price tonight on America's obesity epidemic. Dr. Phil is going to join me to talk about dieting, the right and wrong way to do it.


DR. PHIL MCGRAW, HOST, "DR. PHIL": If we go on these restrictive diets, crash diets, yo-yo diets, however you want to refer to them, they just simply don't work. People that are on these diets tend to gain more weight throughout the year than people who don't diet at all.



GUPTA: In Chicago tonight, there are people hoping and lawmakers asking that the National Guard troops occupy their neighborhoods. That's right, people so fed up and beaten down by the shootings and killings of children, that they want armed forces and Humvees patrolling city streets.

Local authorities say it's not going to happen. They claim that they have got a handle on the problem. But, "Keeping Them Honest" tonight, do they really?

Look at these pictures up on the wall. They make a strong case that they really don't. These are kids gunned down on the streets of Chicago -- 101 of them aged 19 or under were murdered in Chicago last year.

Making it worse, many of the killings go unsolved, for one chilling reason.

And, as Joe Johns discovered, it has nothing to do with cops or troops or Humvees.


JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It seems like Chicago is a city constantly under siege. In one 12-hour period alone recently, seven people were killed and 18 others wounded. In this deadly month of April, Robert Tate's murder stands out because he refused to cooperate with the police, allowing his killer to get away with murder.

(on camera): On Chicago's West Side, Robert Tate, a 17-year-old from the neighborhood, had been shot in the chest. He was dying. A police officer came up to him and said, do you know who shot you? He said: "I know, but I'm not telling you." Paramedics tried to save him, but Robert Tate died.

JODY WEIS, CHICAGO POLICE SUPERINTENDENT: You know, that's the first instance that I'm aware of wherein someone has -- knows who shot them and who eventually killed him, and he would refuse to cooperate.

We have had many, many instances where dying declarations are used in court. And, for whatever reason, Mr. Tate wanted to take this to his grave.

JOHNS: Police say the case highlights one of the bigger problems faced by many large cities: people refusing to give law enforcement information, refusing to be a so-called snitch, even though it could help solve a crime. For whatever reason, fear of retribution, distrust of police, there's a code of silence in many neighborhoods that makes everyone unsafe by allowing bad guys to get away with crimes. This 17-year-old was a friend of Robert Tate and says he hung out with Tate the day he died.

(on camera): So, if somebody has an issue with somebody else, they don't go to the police; they try to settle it on their own?

DIERRECK COSBY, FRIEND OF VICTIM: Some people will. It depends on the person. I would say, yes, it depends on the person, because some people probably got too much pride, and they believe they don't need the police in it, because, sometimes, the police, they really won't even do nothing.

JOHNS: So, what is Chicago doing about it? Here at police headquarters, they tell me they have got a new campaign called silence kills to try to break the code of silence in the community. It's funded with $500,000 of federal stimulus money.

They're also encouraging people to text their tips to them anonymously, so they can't be traced. Under that program, police have gotten more than 500 tips just over the last year, which led to 22 arrests.

(voice-over): Still, that doesn't solve the larger problem or answer the question of why people in some neighborhoods don't always talk. It's something many cities like Chicago continue to struggle with, even when talking to the police can be a life-or-death decision.

Joe Johns, CNN, Chicago.


COOPER: All right, "Digging Deeper" now with Dr. Steven Salzman of Advocate Christ Medical Center.

Good to see you again, Doc.


GUPTA: You know, I -- we spent some time together, obviously, in Chicago last year at this time.

Let's take a quick look at what we saw together then.


GUPTA: What goes through your head right now?

SALZMAN: It's fairly routine at this point. We see so many gunshot wounds, it's business as usual.

GUPTA: We're hearing about an AK-47 gunshot wound in the South Side of Chicago. It sounds like a war zone.

SALZMAN: The wrong people are getting their hands on these weapons, and they're using them to essentially wage war in the streets of Chicago.


GUPTA: Can't believe we're talking about this again, Steve. But, I mean, what has changed since then? That was a year ago.

SALZMAN: Unfortunately, nothing's changed. And, actually, it's gotten worse.

When you were here last time, Sanjay, we basically -- it was a month later than we're doing this interview now. We had about 189 gunshot wounds. And, currently, already, we have had over 200 gunshot wounds. So, the problem is not getting better. And, in fact, it's getting much worse.

GUPTA: You know, I mean, obviously, part of the reason we're talking about this is, some Chicago lawmakers are calling on the governor to deploy the National Guard to help with -- with this violence. I mean, could that be part of the solution here?

SALZMAN: You know, I equate that to putting a Band-Aid on a hemorrhaging wound.

Yes, that might possibly solve this symptom, but it is a huge problem and it really has to be attacked on multiple fronts. It's not just the National Guard or more police. It's a multipronged approach. You have to go after it in many way, through education and setting up violence-prevention programs, and a lot of other things in family structure and things for kids to do outside of being recruited into these gangs.

GUPTA: Right.

SALZMAN: It's a difficult problem, and needs multiple solutions, not just one.

GUPTA: In medicine you have acute and chronic problems, right, Dr. Salzman? So, the chronic problems, some of the solutions, you mentioned, but, Steven, these numbers are out of control, I mean, so many people dying, 113 homicides so far.

I mean, some of this matches what we're seeing in Afghanistan and Iraq. And, I guess, in some ways, maybe that makes the case that you need something more here. I mean, how does this get better? And if the National Guard isn't the answer, what does help right now?

SALZMAN: I mean, ultimately, I think that's the million-dollar question. And that's what everybody in Chicago -- lawmakers, the police, medical staff, everybody is struggling with that.

I think, yes, I -- we need more presence perhaps on the street. One of things is that I think we need to be very proactive and out-of- the-box with the way we deal with violence.

And, for instance, one of the programs that we're doing now, CeaseFire, a violence prevention program, which is basically we have ex-gang members and people that are very ensconced still in the community and have community ties to come into the hospital basically as part of the trauma team, the attempt to prevent recidivism and retaliation and act as violence-interrupters to diffuse the situation.

GUPTA: Right.

SALZMAN: And, again, that's not the only answer.

GUPTA: Right.

SALZMAN: But, certainly, it's programs with out-of-the-box thinking like that that clearly is -- is the start, because the conventional, conservative way of...

GUPTA: Right.

SALZMAN: ... doing things, it is not working.

GUPTA: And I know a lot of patients talk to you, Steve, as I saw first hand, when sometimes they won't talk to anybody else. You are doing amazing work out there. Hope to keep checking in with you.

Thanks so much for joining us.

And just ahead tonight...

SALZMAN: Thank you very much, Sanjay.

GUPTA: Thank you -- we're going to tell you about a potentially serious setback for the rocker Bret Michaels, something we talked about last night, but the latest from the shooting where he's recovering from a brain hemorrhage.

And, later, dieting, and Dr. Phil on why eating less isn't always easy.


GUPTA: We are following some other important stories.

And Tom Foreman again with a 360 news and business bulletin -- Tom.

FOREMAN: Hey, Sanjay.

Late word: A man detained after claiming he had explosives on a transatlantic Delta flight served in the U.S. Air Force as an intelligence specialist. Derek Stansberry was on active duty from 2005 to 2009 and served in Afghanistan and Iraq. The Paris-to-Atlanta flight was diverted to Maine. No explosives were found.

Ford Motor Company reported a first-quarter profit of $2.1 billion. A year ago, Ford logged a net loss of more than $1.4 billion.

And Bret Michaels has apparently suffered a setback in his recovery from a brain hemorrhage. According to a statement posted on his Web site, test shows Michaels has a condition called hyponatremia, which leads to seizures.

And, Sanjay, can I bother you about this for a moment, because I have been curious about this? What is this condition, hyponatremia? And -- and how common is this in people who are recovering from a brain hemorrhage?

GUPTA: Yes. You know, hyponatremia just basically means low salt. And most people sort of hear about this. For example, a marathoner who is running long distance loses a lot of salt in their sweat and is just drinking regular water, sometimes, they can lower the salt concentration in their body.

It can also happen, Tom, to your question, after someone has had a brain hemorrhage. It turns out some of the blood pooling around some important structures in the brain can cause this. That aneurysm that we're talking about could cause that sort of bleeding, as you see in that -- I don't know if you can see that, Tom -- that image there...

FOREMAN: Mm-hmm. Sure.

GUPTA: ... that aneurysm right there, that ruptures. You see it highlighted?


GUPTA: When it starts to spray blood, it can cause problems with the area of the brain that is responsible for regulating your sodium. And I think that that's probably what happened here. About a third to half of patients who have a brain bleed, that's what happens.

FOREMAN: Is hyponatremia in any way a cause of this, or is it purely a result of this?

GUPTA: I think purely a result.

You know, now, hyponatremia, if someone were at home, and not in a hospital, and had it, it would be a significant problem. But the good news is, Tom, in the hospital, you check sodium levels. And, if they're low, you give additional sodium. If they're high, you can withhold sodium. So, I think -- my guess is, this is not going to end up being that big a deal, Tom.

FOREMAN: And, very quickly, is this a big setback to him or just a small, but serious one?

GUPTA: I think probably a small, but serious one. And it has to be monitored, for sure. But this is something that neurosurgeons certainly follow along. And I -- my guess is, in the scheme of things, it's not going to be that big a deal.

But we're certainly going to follow that story along. Saw that statement on his Web site, where they talk quite a bit about this.

So, Tom, stick with us.

Next, we're going to have Dr. Phil on obesity, what it is costing our nation, and what we can do about it as well.


MCGRAW: If we only used food for nutrition, the way animals do -- you know, you don't ever see a fat coyote, you don't ever see a fat lion, because they use food to survive. They -- they eat to live, instead of live to eat.


GUPTA: He makes a pretty good point there.

Also tonight, though: one girl's miraculous survival after being attacked by one of the deadliest creature on the Earth. We have got those details ahead.


GUPTA: All this week, we're putting the high price of health care under the microscope. Tonight is no exception.

Tonight, we're talking about the high cost, the secret ones, of obesity.

Want to show you a couple things here at the wall. You know a problem is a big one when you need a new word to describe it. And here's one: obesogenic. That's a new word. It's a word that the CDC uses to describe American society. It means that our society is simply promoting unhealthy eating habits and being inactive.

And there are side effects, such as this one right here. Donna Simpson. Take a look at her. She lives in New Jersey. She's 42 years old, and she weighs about 600 pounds. Donna Simpson's goal: to be the fattest woman in America. Imagine that. She's trying to actually pack on more pounds, wants to weigh close to 1,000 pounds. So clearly, Simpson is an exception to the rule.

But her story does beg some urgent questions: are we as a society too accepting of obesity, and what does obesity really cost us? I can tell you, the numbers, first of all, are staggering.

This year alone -- this year, one year -- obesity will cost us close to $147 billion, again due to this particular chronic disease. Now, if we continue this trend, and talk about 2018, just a few years away, the costs are going to go to about $344 billion, again, due to obesity.

And if you really start to take a macro look at all this, overall, the expenditures, the percentage of overall health-care spending, about 21 percent. Why? Simply because America is too fat.

But of course, that doesn't take into account what's happening into your body. Let me show you a couple things as a doctor real quick.

We talk about the effect on heart disease all the time. And if you look at someone's heart specifically, you go in, you start to strip away the heart. What can happen is that the blood vessels become too small. The heart has to work increasingly harder, and eventually, the heart will beat faster, make it more difficult for it to sustain itself and could potentially lead to heart failure. Obviously, a huge problem.

But also, something simple like this. This is an x-ray of somebody's knee. That a look over here: one bone right on top of one another. This area right in here, that is where cartilage has disappeared. That is bone on bone. That is painful, and that is a result of simply weighing too much.

Now, we can put a price tag on all of this. And that's what this is all about. If you're obese the majority of your adult life, you're going to spend about an additional $179,000 as compared to someone who's at a healthy weight. Those numbers simply don't lie. Our health-care system is no doubt bearing the brunt of this extremely costly trend.

A talk show host and author, Dr. Phil McGraw is on a mission to help Americans fight obesity. It's a subject that he feels passionate about, and we talked earlier.


GUPTA: Thanks for joining us, Dr. Phil. One of the things that's striking is that, in our attempts to deal with the problem of obesity, I question whether or not we're doing enough to address the psychological component behind it.

DR. PHIL MCGRAW, TALK SHOW HOST: Well, Dr. Gupta, I don't think we are. And I'll tell you why. I think the American mindset of weight control is diet. And as you know, the research is not very supportive of diets. We go on these restrictive diets, crash diets, yo-yo diets, however you want to refer to them. They just simply don't work. People that are on these diets tend to gain more weight throughout the year than people who don't diet at all.

What we need instead is kind of a revamp of our lifestyle in America. If you change your lifestyle, where you become more active, you're more involved with intentional exercise, you create your environment for food to be more healthy, with the right kind of foods being available and the wrong kind of foods not being available, then you create a lifestyle that will sustain you.

GUPTA: And this idea -- you know, you said something once about this idea that we eat when we're anxious. We eat for comfort. How big a problem is that? I mean, look, I'm guilty of that, as well. I don't know if you are, but I eat sometimes when I'm stressed out. How do you -- how do you break out of that?

MCGRAW: Well, that's the problem. If we only used food for nutrition the way animals do. You know, you don't ever see a fat coyote. You don't ever se a fat lion, because they use food to survive. They eat to live instead of live to eat, as the old saying goes.

And what we tend to do is use food for too many things. We celebrate with food. We medicate with food. We companion with food. And we call it comfort food because it makes you feel good. And -- and food never rejects you, right? It's always accepting and always there.

What we have to do is deal with psychological issues psychologically, not nutritionally, and then you're not using food for so many different things.

GUPTA: You know, and the perception, I think, now, Dr. Phil, of what is acceptable. Big and beautiful, for example, that's a phrase we hear a lot about. Gabourey Sidibe, the star of the movie "Precious," she's been very vocal of being proud of the way she looks. How important is it to sort of balance a healthy self image with a -- with a realistic body image?

MCGRAW: Well, here's the thing. She's probably in the minority. And I have to say, I'm thrilled to death that she has confidence in herself and her body. And what a delightful young and talented woman, so she has so many reasons to feel good about herself.

But you and I know that carrying that kind of weight can create real health risks. She is going to -- with people that are this obese, you know, we see diseases occurring in teens and 20-somethings that you usually wouldn't see the onset of until their 40s. It's going to shorten her life span anywhere from 10, 20, 30 years. I mean, the risk factors just can't be ignored.

GUPTA: A few weeks ago, Dr. Phil, I followed around this 12- year-old boy who is obese, maybe morbidly obese. And the thing that really struck me was something that President Clinton had once told me, that this generation of children being born right now have a very good chance of having a shorter life span than their parents, despite all the scientific advancements, all the technological advancements. Why is that? I mean, what is going on that's causing that?

MCGRAW: Well, you know, first off, I do think we are more sedentary than we were even a generation ago. And I think a lot of it is because of technology. You know, kids are watching more television than they were because there's more to watch. They're playing video games instead of actual games when those weren't available before. So I think we are more sedentary.

I think we also are living a faster life pace, and, you know, fast food is a big issue.

And the problem is we've got to talk to the parents, Sanjay. Because it's the parents that model the eating behaviors. They're the ones that buy the food, prepare the food, and present the food. So we've got to get the parents to start giving these children better role models and better eating options and alternatives if we expect this to get under control. (END VIDEOTAPE)

GUPTA: All right. The rest of my interview with Dr. Phil straight ahead.

Plus something you're going to find fascinating. This is the worst meals you can order when eating out. You're not going to believe how many calories and fat grams they are packed with.

Plus this man who died a hero on the streets of New York, trying to stop a crime. Tonight, I'm going to tell you about his life.


GUPTA: You know, it's no secret that many of us eat too much food, a lot of it bad for us. The FDA recommends that adults consume around 2,000 calories a day total and no more than 20 grams of saturated fat. And that's why a list of some of the unhealthiest dishes in some of America's most popular chain restaurants caught our eye today. We found it on, which says it got all the information straight from the restaurant's menus.

Take a look at this. No. 3, Chili's Jalapeno Smokehouse Burger, with jalapeno ranch thrown in for good measure, 2000 -- more than 2000 calories and 43 grams of saturated fat.

Take a look there, No. 2, Chevy's Fresh Mex, of 2,560 calories. Again, more than an entire day's worth and 53 grams of saturated fat.

And the No. 1, Claim Jumper's Beef Back Ribs, 4,300 calories and a whopping 156 grams of saturated fat. That's eight times the amount of fat you need in one day, just from one single meal.

With numbers like that, it no wonder Americans' waistlines are expanding and all of it adding to our health-care costs.

So more now of the secret costs. Here's some of my interview with Dr. Phil McGraw.


GUPTA: Dr. Phil, I don't know if you've heard about this woman, Donna Simpson. She lives in New Jersey. She's announced her intention to become the fattest woman in the world. She wants to weigh in at a thousand pounds. In fact, we approached her about doing an interview with us, and she referred us to her agent. Told us she couldn't do it, because she already had an exclusive deal with another network.

I mean, what does that say about the state of things in this country when -- when putting yourself in jeopardy of serious health problems can also be a path to fame and fortune?

MCGRAW: Well, you know, I think it's disgusting that it's -- we've gotten television into the kind of frame of mind where people will virtually do anything to get on television.

And somebody that aspires to weigh 1,000 pounds, and I don't know what can be done about it. But I mean, this person is a slow suicide, in my opinion. The risk associated with that. I mean, from a physician's standpoint, tell me what are the risks associated with that? This has got to put her in harm's way.

GUPTA: I mean, yes, everything from the basic things like carrying that much weight around on your knees, what it's doing to your heart, the blood vessels that lead to your brain, all the organs, really, inside your abdomen.

I couldn't help but think, I mean, she is literally, as I think you and I are both pointing out, she's going to kill herself. She's going to eat herself to death. I mean -- and people are sort of -- not only are they sitting by; people are profiting, including her, from this. I mean, should you do an intervention? Should someone do an intervention? And what should happen here?

MCGRAW: Well, someone -- hopefully, she has family members around her; she has people that care about her that would say, "Don't trade your life for 15 minutes of fame," particularly when the fame is a sideshow sort of thing.

GUPTA: You know, one of the things that I always hear back from viewers when we talk about this is the whole idea of what we think of as overweight or obese.

So for example, a lot of times people will say, you look too skinny. But in fact, my BMI is squarely in the middle of normal.

You're 6'4, 240 pounds. I think your BMI is around 29.4, which is overweight, almost obese, but yet, you're obviously not.

These are the numbers people that base a lot of things on. The numbers don't always match up. Is that sort of shooting ourselves in the foot?

MCGRAW: I do think the BMI is sometimes unrealistic. I know for myself, it says that I should be around 180, 185. And I promise you, at that weight, I would be very unhealthy and probably look 100 years old.

I always encourage people to find what I call their ideal body weight. There is a point that you can get down to a weight where you're healthy, your chemistries are looking good, you feel good, and it's natural to stay there.

If you get to a certain low weight, you can walk by a cupcake, it seems, and gain ten pounds, which means you've gone past that ideal body weight. You've got to find what's reasonable for you. You look good. You feel good. Your body chemistries are healthy, and that's where you need to be.

GUPTA: Dr. Phil, thanks so much.

MCGRAW: Thank you.


GUPTA: And still ahead, we told you how he died on the streets of New York after trying to stop a crime. Well, tonight, we have much more to tell you about how he lived.

Plus, an amazing survival story. A 10-year-old girl stunned by a massive jellyfish whose injuries would have killed most adults. And she's alive. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)


GUPTA: He lived in the shadows, and he died on the street without anyone coming to help him. I can't stop thinking about this man. We first told you about this last night. He's a Good Samaritan. Saved a woman from an attacker, stabbed by the assailant, and then he collapsed on a New York sidewalk. As the security tape shows, there are people come and they go. Some stop; some stare. One took a picture. But all of them did nothing.

By the time help arrives, it's too late. The man is dead.

We heard a lot about bystander behavior and the indifference to those in desperate need. But what about the victim? Who was he? We think it's important to know, because what matters isn't just how he died but also how he lived.

Here's tonight's "Crime & Punishment" report.


GUPTA (voice-over): Invisible, that is probably how this man would have described himself, cloaked and unidentifiable in grainy video. The last reported images of him.

(on camera) By the time Hugo Tale-Yax died, he had been living in the United States for nearly six years. For the past year, he was down-and-out on his luck, out of work. He often roamed these streets as a homeless man, invisible to the people who lived in this neighborhood.

(voice-over) Until April 18, just before 6 a.m.

(on camera) It was here that police say Tale-Yax tried to help a woman who was being attacked at knifepoint. That same attacker then turned his knife on Tale-Yax, stabbing him several times. As he staggered after his attacker, all of it was picked up on that camera right over there.

But here's the thing. As heroic as Tale-Yax's actions were, he remained invisible. In fact, he lay right around here for more than an hour in a crumbled heap while more than two dozen people simply passed on by. (voice-over) Invisible. Even finding someone who knew him was a challenge. But we did eventually find Edwin Tacam, Hugo's cousin.

EDWIN TACAM, HUGO TALE-YAX'S COUSIN: At least one of the people that just walk away from him, they should have stopped by and see what happened to him. That probably could have save his life, too, but nobody did it.

GUPTA: For days people have speculated why no one stopped. Maybe it was the so-called bystander behavior, or maybe, others say, our society is so saturated with violent images on TV and video games, when people see the real trauma, it barely registers.

Of course, none of that helps him. I couldn't stop thinking about him or anyone who could have been in that same position, dying with so many watching.

TACAM: It's really sad, really sad. Yes.

GUPTA: We did ask his cousin why Hugo would step in and save the life of a woman he'd never even met. He shook his head and said he just didn't know.

TACAM: My father, he was telling me that he -- he saw him three months ago. He saw him -- he saw him on the subway. And then he -- they hug each other. I think he was saying good-bye to my father, I think. That's what he said.

GUPTA: Today we learned Hugo was 31 years old and that he grew up in Guatemala. But we couldn't find any photos of him. Even his cousin hadn't seen him in months. In fact, these grainy images from a surveillance camera are the only memories he has left.

(on camera) A wake will be held for Tale-Yax at this funeral home here in Brooklyn. It will be attended by his very small family. And then on Friday, his body will be transported to Guatemala to be buried in his small home town, a little village called La Esperanza, which means hope, something Tale-Yax was robbed of while trying to save the life of another.


GUPTA: And keep in mind, as well, that police still do need help trying in solving this crime. They're trying to identify the woman saved by Hugo Alfredo Tale-Yax. Here you see her in that surveillance video. If you have any information about her identity or the suspect in the murder, you can contact the New York Police Department by calling 1-800-577-TIPS. That's 1-800-577-8477.

Next on 360, he killed Malcolm X. Now, 45 years after the assassination, there's a new development in this case.

And later, making laws and throwing eggs? Legislators let loose with a melee. You'll remember this one. That's the "Shot." It's coming up.


GUPTA: Well, law and order turn to eggs and umbrellas. I'm not making this up. Big-time brawl for one other country's parliament. What triggered it? That's tonight's "Shot." That's coming up, though first Tom Foreman joins us again for some important stories in the "360 Bulletin" -- Tom.

FOREMAN: Hi, Sanjay.

The only man who confessed to involvement in the assassination of Malcolm X is free on parole. Thomas Hagan served 44 years for the 1965 murder of the civil rights activist. Hagan told the parole board he had deep regrets about his participation in the slaying.

Arizona's controversial new immigration law is drawing fire from across the border. Mexico has issued an advisory to its citizens traveling to Arizona, saying the state has created a negative political environment. The advisory urges Mexicans in Arizona to have all necessary immigration documentation with them.

In Australia, an amazing recovery. A 10-year-old girl came into contact with one of the deadliest creatures in the world, a box jellyfish. Each of its tentacles contain thousands of stingers. The encounter happened in December and left the girl blind and unconscious at first. Today, though, the family says she's doing well.

And Sanjay, in Brazil, the health minister says a great way to fight the country's rising blood pressure rate is to have more sex. He says it will bring the numbers down. Along with the sex, he also recommends a healthy diet. So want salad with that?

GUPTA: Pretty good exercise. I mean, come on, you know. I like that, the healthy diet, they had to add that in there.

Tom, stick with us. We've got out "Beat 360" winners. It's our daily challenge, of course, to viewers, a chance to show up our own staffers by coming up with a better caption to the photo we post on our blog every day.

Tonight's photo, Fabrice Tourre of Goldman Sachs prepares to testify before a Senate investigative subcommittee on Capitol Hill.

Our staff winner tonight is Gabe. His caption: "Hmm, I should bundle up my testimony and sell it as junk bonds. Could make a killing."


GUPTA: Not bad, Tom.

FOREMAN: Not bad.

GUPTA: And our viewer round, Caroline from Charles Hill, Virginia. Her caption: "Buy low, sell high, and take the fifth."

(SOUND EFFECT: "HALLELUIAH") GUPTA: Yes. Caroline, your "Beat 360" T-shirt, it's on the way.

All right. Tom. Tonight's "Shot," lawmakers gone wild. Take a look at this.




GUPTA: We have a reason to watch the Ukrainian parliament, I guess. You see them in action there first hand. That's a real full- out brawl that erupted today, apparently over a decision allowing Russia to keep a naval base at a Ukrainian port. Watching the legislators fight, throw eggs. They set off smoke bombs, as well, Tom.

FOREMAN: You're kidding.

GUPTA: Yes. Well, it kind of...


ANNOUNCER: Got us thinking.


GUPTA: Did you like that?


GUPTA: It did get us thinking about other lawmakers from around the world who made news by fighting, literally fighting one another. We've seen these battles in South Korea, Indonesia, Argentina, Iraq and Mexico, everyone seemingly out of control. Tonight, Tom, we're going to add the Ukrainian parliament to that list.

FOREMAN: That's a good addition.

GUPTA: Tom, they had the umbrellas.

FOREMAN: Yes, I like that.

GUPTA: We know you're going to throw eggs, so we're bringing umbrellas.

FOREMAN: Yes. What do you use to stop a chair? They're throwing chairs.

GUPTA: That's true.

FOREMAN: Bigger than an umbrella for that.

GUPTA: It did get a little violent, some people hitting each other. Smoke bombs. FOREMAN: Good stuff. That's the way to make law.

GUPTA: That's right. We'll see what comes out of all that. Tom, thanks so much.

Coming up at the top of the hour, how top Wall Street executives answered charges they wrecked Main Street.