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Joran Claims He was Framed

Aired June 21, 2010 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Tonight pandemonium in Peru as Joran Van Der Sloot is dragged into court. Now he`s retracted his murder confession. Joran says he was intimidated and tricked during his interrogation, claiming he couldn`t even read his signed confession because it was in Spanish.

So is any of this true or is Joran just trying to slither away from an admission of murder? You won`t believe what his mom is saying.

Plus, Casey Anthony`s defense team back in court fighting to have this infamous 911 call thrown out.


CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So can the prosecution use these tapes? And will her mom`s words impact Casey`s fate?

And troubling twists and turns in the desperate search for Kyron Horman. This adorable little 7-year-old boy vanished from inside his school hallway. His stepmom was the last person to see him alive.

Tonight sources say cops have now given her a second polygraph. Could her cell phone be a crucial clue in this case?

ISSUES starts now.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight stunning new developments. Joran Van Der Sloot says, "I have been framed." Joran is taking back, retracting his confession claiming authorities tricked him into admitting he brutally murdered 21-year-old Stephany Flores Ramirez.

It was another day of total bedlam in Peru as Joran was dragged into court. The media is going crazy as the entire world watches this case unfold. Joran tells the Dutch newspaper "De Telegraph" that he had no idea the 10-page confession he signed said he beat Stephany, strangled her and smothered her with his shirt -- the shirt off his back.

You`re looking at it right there.

He says the confession was written in Spanish and Joran claims he didn`t understand a word of it. He says authorities told him if he just signed the papers he would be extradited and off to the Netherlands.

Joran says, quote, "In my blind panic I signed everything and didn`t know what it said," end quote.

If Joran really didn`t understand the confession he was signing why wouldn`t he wait for an attorney to translate it for him? He has been arrested twice before in connection with the Natalee Holloway case. This isn`t his first twirl at the dance, so to speak.

And how will Joran explain this video? Joran entering his hotel room, Stephany Flores following closely behind him. Just hours later you see Joran in fresh clothing leaving alone, Stephany`s body wrapped in a blood- drenched blanket, lies dead in a heap behind that very door.

If Joran didn`t confess, then what is he saying actually happened that night?

Plus Joran is complaining that Castro Castro prison is sheer misery. He says rats are crawling out of his toilet. Hmm. Which is actually a hole in the ground.

And Joran`s own mom says her son is sick in the head. Anita Van Der Sloot is speaking out now. She says Joran went to Latin America to escape lockdown at a high security psychiatric hospital.

What do you at home think about all of this? Really stunning developments today. 1-877-JVM-SAYS. Give me a holler, 1-877-586-7297.

Straight out to my fantastic expert panel, but first to Jean Casarez, correspondent for "In Session" on truTV.

Jean, you are in Peru in the middle of all this drama. You are outside the hearing this morning. Paint a picture for us. What was the mood like? What is the very latest?

All right. Well, I will get back to Jean Casarez because she`s not hearing us. But I`ve got to say -- and I`m going to go to Jayne Weintraub on this.

How do you retract a confession? How do you say, Janie, oops, never mind, I didn`t mean it, forget about it. You know all those things I said about, those terrible things I said, just -- just forget about it.

JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think it`s several different things, Jane. One is that whether or not this is suppressed -- the confession -- will depend on what the specific procedures are and what the police can and cannot do in Peru.

Obviously, it`s different in the United States. In the United States, the police are allowed to induce a confession only with certain very limited circumstances. So it might be suppressed, number one.

And number two, if it isn`t Joran will always be able to testify and explain what he`s saying now. For example, we know that Joran does not speak Spanish. And, Jane, according to the translation that I received on the confession on the wires, it is in Spanish.

But Joran doesn`t speak Spanish. And there was an Interpol document that was released today that discusses the fact when he surrendered in Chile Joran Van Der Sloot said he voluntarily surrendered so he would avoid going to Peru and be taken immediately to Aruba.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me just say this.

WEINTRAUB: Because that`s --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You see this videotape we`re looking at here?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s video of Joran signing stuff. Of course they would have either audio-taped or videotaped or both when he was in his interrogation confessing the words that the authorities used to draw up the confession, Mike Brooks.

MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Exactly. And, you know, if he didn`t speak Spanish, how did he communicate with all these people? Apparently he speaks Spanish but not that well.

And you know we heard early on, too, Jane, that they were waiting for a certified Dutch interpreter to get there. And the whole thing -- if his attorney was present with him on the third of these -- you know, his confession of his statement, then why did he not represent him well? That`s my other question.

WEINTRAUB: Look, most importantly, regardless of what the confession is, he`s got tackle all the other evidence and the DNA and the physical evidence.

BROOKS: Exactly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we`re going get to all that.

BROOKS: Thank you, Jayne.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I want to go back to Jean Casarez. She is now ready to go in Peru.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jean, a day of bedlam. Another day of pandemonium. Describe the scene at his hearing today.

CASAREZ: When we were out at Castro Castro, which is the prison where he`s being held at and this court hearing was actually held there because of the notoriety of this case and security issues, so everyone was waiting. And I`m talking about international press was waiting at the front gates of the prison.

And we see the defense attorney go by and then the judge goes by. So we know that hearing is about to get going. But when Maximo Altez, the attorney for Joran Van Der Sloot left, he didn`t have a thing to say to anybody. He just got out of there as fast as he could, but we did talk with him shortly after that.

And he said as far as a formal student that Joran Van Der Sloot made it but he did not allow him to address the facts at all. He simply said that his rights were being violated.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I got to say this is the attorney who doesn`t want to be Joran`s attorney. And he apparently wants to get off the case and is having a hard time doing so because it`s made him a very unpopular person in Peru because Stephany Flores was much loved by her family, which is extraordinarily prominent. Her dad ran for public office in Peru.

Here`s my big ISSUE tonight. Insanity defense? Is Joran`s mom Anita setting Joran up for an insanity defense? She tells "De Telegraph" Joran doesn`t know the difference between the truth and a lie. She said he was paranoid right before he left for Peru. He claimed he was being watched.

Anita also says Joran was traumatized after he was arrested for Natalee`s disappearance and suffered, quote, "severe psychological distress at the early death of his father for which he blamed himself."

Paul Van Der Sloot, the dad, died of a heart attack recently. He was under a lot of stress because of the Natalee Holloway case. He was even arrested for three days.

Now I want to go to Rita Cosby, Emmy Award-winning journalist, author of "Quiet Hero."

You have been to Aruba. You know a lot about this case. Tell us what you think Anita Van Der Sloot is up to.

RITA COSBY, AUTHOR, "QUIET HERO": I think she`s fed up with her son. In fact, I`ve talked to people who are close to Anita Van Der Sloot in the last few days and they said she`s almost washed her hands of him.

She doesn`t know what to make of this. In fact she was maintaining that my son is innocent, that he`s a good decent man, an honest man. And now suddenly when she finds out there`s a confession, Jane, she`s sort of turning the table and now saying it`s a psychological issue.

But I think she is fed up with her son. She doesn`t know what to make of this guy. She`s run out of money, too, because remember they spent so much money on attorneys in the Aruba case. So she is sort of fed up and doesn`t know what to do with him.

You know another thing, too, Jane, adding to what Mike Brooks is saying in terms of evidence in this case, I would bet -- I mean we have seen so many videotapes coming out of Peru. It`s incredible.

There`s probably some videotape associated with some of the statements. You also have to wonder what witnesses were present and then you couple that with some forensic evidence.

It may not just be his statement standing on its own. He`s going to probably have a very difficult time getting out of this than saying it was all coerced and just in Spanish.


COSBY: And I had no idea. Give me a break, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: To use a gambling metaphor you`ve got to know when to hold them and know when to fold them. And I think Joran --

COSBY: Absolutely.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He should fold them at this point.

Nick in New York, your question or thought.



NICK: Yes, Jane, I wanted to tell you it`s an honor to speak to you. And I like your program and I appreciate the way you add advocate for victims.


NICK: OK, Jane --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What`s your question or thought?

NICK: Yes. Jane, the issue that I have is that this man, this individual, is a violent, toxic, dangerous psychopath. I mean, he`s just trying -- isn`t it obvious that he`s just trying to slither his way out of justice the way he did with the Natalee Holloway case?

He should be held accountable for what he did because if this guy slithers his way into freedom, if he`s let loose again, he`s going to kill again. I mean it`s just the system is --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what, Nick?

NICK: -- seems to get it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re saying it in a very direct way.

Dr. Dale Archer, this guy is up to his old tricks, is he not?

DR. DALE ARCHER, PSYCHIATRIST: Absolutely right. And I think that most serial killers kill for the rush of the murder. This is a guy that is addicted to fame. He kills in order to have the spotlight put on him.

He dragged out the Natalee Holloway case for five years. And then when that started to fade away, he`s found another way to get his name before -- I`m predicting he`s going to drag this out much like the O.J. Simpson trial. This will be the biggest trial that we`ve seen in years.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes, I think so. Except there`s no jury to acquit him in Peru. It`s a three-judge panel and he`s probably ticking them off right now.

Everybody, stay right where you are.

Is anybody buying Joran`s newest excuse? We`re taking your calls on this. Give me a holler 1-877-JVM-SAYS.

Plus a very upsetting story. A 7-year-old vanished from inside his school. Tonight where is Kyron Horman and why have cops given his stepmom a second polygraph?

But first Joran Van Der Sloot claims his confession was forced and he`s trying to say, oops, never mind what I said.

Can he do that? Why should we believe him now?


DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: I`d be surprised if he told the truth this time. I think his pattern is the same pattern, try and lie and get his way out of it.

He`s tried to avoid the -- this justice system for a long time, and, you know, it -- I`m afraid it`s going to come back and haunt him someday.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just go back to the two things that we know happened. And we know that Deepak and Satish Kalpoe and Joran Van Der Sloot took her from Charlie`s.

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE`S MOTHER: I`ve not made it a secret that Joran Van Der Sloot confessed in sexual assaults that he committed against Natalee to us, her family.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Joran hauled in front of the judge this morning. Take a look at the pandemonium outside the courthouse in Peru. You can see Joran`s attorney is pushing his way through the crowds to get inside. There were no cameras allowed inside.

Joran refused to give any kind of statement about the facts of this case but as we`ve been telling you here on ISSUES he is now retracting his confession saying, never mind. I don`t want to admit to killing Stephany Flores Ramirez after all.

Is it going to work? Can you do that? Can you put that genie back in the bottle?

Jan, Texas, your question or thought?

JAN, CALLER FROM TEXAS: My question has to do with his mother`s statement over the weekend about him being mentally unstable and that he was about to be committed to a mental institution.

If he was so on the verge and they were going to do that, why didn`t she take his passport away from him?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, T.J. Ward, you covered Natalee Holloway`s case. As a private investigator in Aruba searching for Natalee. Do you buy it? Do you buy that he was paranoid, that he was going to be stuck in some mental institution, and that`s why he fled --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- to Latin America --

WARD: Not at all.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: - or is she trying to do insanity? She`s trying to set up an insanity defense?

WARD: No -- well, that may be what he`s trying to do. But I have to tell you something real important. Today we did some research on to his Facebook page. And ironically on May the 10th -- and I think we`ll remember that day. That`s the day I believe he had the transaction with the $25,000 that he was going to leave --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The extortion. The extortion sting.

WARD: Yes, the extortion money. And on his Facebook page, he -- he tells John Ludwick that he is going to Peru to live there until he can get back to Thailand and take care of his shop and that he is done with Aruba. He`s done with Aruba.

But look at now. He wants to go back to the Netherlands. He wants to go back to Aruba because he knows he`s in trouble. And ironically, not only that, but the Aruban today newspaper, the editor in chief Julie Renfro sends him an e-mail also and says be careful for those who love you, for those who support you in everything good and bad.

Be grateful. Life will be a full circle of clouds. So they`re dark. There will always be a rainbow at the end. This was sent on Sunday at 5:00 p.m. on May the 14th. So let me say, computers get you in trouble. And he is now exposed himself that he was through with Aruba and wanted to get out of Aruba because he wasn`t getting his way there.

So now he`s in trouble in Peru. He wants to go back where he started.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well -- I got it. But I got to tell you.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: When he left Aruba, he had no idea that he would end up in a prison cell in Peru and Joran is now complaining to "De Telegraph" that the conditions in his Peruvian cell are deplorable.

Take a look at this exclusive video. Joran says a giant rat crawled out of the toilet hole you`re looking at right there and into his cell.

So I have to ask you this, Mike Brooks. They don`t have real bathrooms there. They`ve got a hole and it`s a big hole. And a rat crawled right up through this hole into his cell. That`s got to be a wake- up call for the very privileged Mr. Van Der Sloot.

BROOKS: Oh, well, that`s too bad. You know?


BROOKS: You`re not getting any sympathy tears from this guy, that`s for sure, Jane. But, you know, we just had Jean Casarez who was walking through there and, you know, was saying hey, compared to other places not too bad.

But, you know, a rat comes out, that`s just too bad. I`m really -- I really feel bad for him.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And it`s possible --

COSBY: Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, go ahead.

WEINTRAUB: What I was going to say is that with regard to the confession he also might have thought that the confession, accepting responsibility for the actions of killing Stephany, might give him or keep him at that lower sentence of 15 to 35 years. And it wouldn`t then be aggravated to make him facing life.

And that`s why he might have confessed. Or, again, he might have just been told or misled by the police telling him, you know, one thing and inducing him --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He might have had a moment of insanity where he actually told the truth for once and now he`s regretting it.

Kitty in Georgia, your question or thought.



KITTY: I have a question that no one has really mentioned. And --


KITTY: What it is, is when he was at that hotel and he committed that act, he got a phone call. Who was that person that did that phone call because --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let me go to Jean Casarez. OK, Jean, any -- do you have anything on that? Jean?

CASAREZ: I can confirm to you it was someone from the Atlantic -- yes, can you hear me?


CASAREZ: Can you hear me?


CASAREZ: OK. I can confirm that it was someone from the Atlantic City Casino that called the hotel. Now what we`ve heard that it was someone that he -- that worked there, a head of casino operations, but it was something that maybe he personally was getting to know. But we can confirm it was someone from the casino that worked right there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Bring on the excuses. Joran Van Der Sloot says he was duped into confessing. His mom says he`s mentally ill.

Do you believe it? More next.



JORAN VAN DER SLOOT, SUSPECT IN NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S DISAPPEARANCE: I have come to the Netherlands to begin my studies and I hope that I can do that in peace.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight fast-breaking news. Joran`s mother speaking out, says instead of going to study in the Netherlands after Natalee Holloway`s disappearance, Joran should have been sent to a mental hospital because he is sick in the head.

Rita Cosby, you`ve covered this case and so many others. And I have to say I think that every legal trick that would work great in the United States -- somebody mentioned the O.J. Simpson trial -- is going to back fire in Peru because there are no juries. It`s a three-judge panel. And he is really ticking the system off with his behavior.

COSBY: You`re absolutely right. In fact, I`ve spent time in Peru. I covered the hostage standoff that took place at the Japanese embassy. And I can tell you from spending time and talking to Peruvian officials through the years, Jane, they don`t like these sort of little games and these little tricks.

So I think this is going to come back to bite him and I think it`s going to be very difficult. The only thing -- you know, I bet you Anita Van Der Sloot right now is trying to see is there any document, is there any papers or anything she can do to justify this new theory that she`s throwing out which seems to very much be a new theory.

And I think he`s going to have an extremely tough time. They don`t fool around with this monkey business.

And you know we talked about the rat in the jail cell. We forgot about the rat who`s in the jail cell who confessed to Stephany Flores` killing.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and by the way, nothing against rats. Rats are great, except you wouldn`t want anything that`s a living being crawling out of a toilet at you in the middle of the night when you`re locked up behind bars.

Nancy, Minnesota, your question or thought, ma`am.

NANCY, CALLER FROM MINNESOTA: Yes. I was outraged that Aruba just let him walk away and I was wondering if there`s any possible way that he could end up walking away from this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Jean Casarez, you`re there in Peru. Do you think his behavior is infuriating the authorities there?

CASAREZ: You know, I think inside, yes. But the judge is a neutral body. And so the judge is not forming a decision. He had a right not to say anything today. They had to go through with the court appearance. But he has a right to not incriminate himself in Peru.

So they`ll just go forward. And the three-judge panel when it finally gets to that I believe will be a very fair body.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight we also have some brand-new crime scene photos. Take a look. Here is the photo of Stephany`s belongings, her cell phone -- cell phone holder, pen, handbag, about $5,000 cash she won at the casino missing.

And here is the shirt Joran Van Der Sloot was wearing on the night of Stephany`s murder. He purportedly confessed. This is the very shirt he held over Stephany`s nose and mouth to smother her.

Jayne Weintraub, you`re the criminal defense attorney, but that`s very good evidence right there.

WEINTRAUB: Well, I mean, to me it`s kind of obvious even as a defense lawyer that he committed the act. Now the question is reducing his liability, mitigating his responsibility and his imprisonment sentence.

That`s what it would be about at this point. And that`s why his mother might be fed up or might have been reaching or groping for the insanity defense but what she very well may do is present mitigating evidence why it shouldn`t be for a longer period of time and that he`s sick and not as insane. You know that he`s --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: There is an insanity defense in Peru. It`s very similar to the United States. You have to prove that you didn`t know the difference between right and wrong. Could he actually prove that?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: We are going to stay on top of that. I heard Mike Brooks say no. We`re going to get him on the other side.


WEINTRAUB: I think there was an impulse when he saw the Facebook.


BROOKS: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re going to have a lot more on Joran`s day in court.

Plus a chilling 911 call in the Casey Anthony case. It`s all about the smell of rotting flesh.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Casey Anthony`s defense team back in court fighting to have this infamous 911 call thrown out.

CINDY ANTHONY: I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So can the prosecution use these tapes? And will her mom`s words impact Casey`s fate?

And troubling twists and turns in the desperate search for Kyron Horman; this adorable little 7-year-old boy vanished from inside his school hallway. His stepmom was the last person to see him alive.

Tonight sources say cops have now given her a second polygraph. Could her cell phone be a crucial clue in this case?

But first fast-breaking news out of Peru: Joran Van Der Sloot says he was tricked into signing a confession to murder. Tonight we also brand new photos of Joran`s shirt covered in blood. So if Joran didn`t use this shirt, what exactly did happen? How come it`s covered in blood?

Straight out to Jean Casarez, correspondent for "In Session" on TruTV live in Lima, Peru. Jean, it was a huge day. He appeared in court. Set the stage for us. What was it like? The entire world is watching this case.

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": That`s right. We`re here at the entrance to Castro-Castro, which is on a dirt road. It`s very rural, Jane. It`s on the outskirts of Lima but yet it is in a very, very poor neighborhood. And that`s where the entrance is to the prison.

The whole media crew from all over the world including the Netherlands -- they have flown to be here -- was just waiting to find out who was exactly going to be in attendance.

Now, the Flores family, they could have gone but we spoke to them earlier today. They said that they did not want to be in attendance with this. But finally the parties arrived. We knew that it was about to begin. And about hour and 30 minutes later, Jane, out comes the defense attorney not giving any comments at all. But when we spoke to him he merely said that he did not give that formal statement on the facts to the judge.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Meantime, in Aruba, Joran Van Der Sloot`s mother is saying that her son is sick in the head and has severe mental problems. We`re all speculating, could she be trying to set Joran up for an insanity defense?

Mike Brooks, HLN law enforcement analyst, that would allow, if he was found not guilty by reason of insanity, him to go to some kind of mental facility as opposed to staying in a cell where we just found out rats are crawling outs of the toilets and there`s not even a toilet. It`s a hole in the ground.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: He would love to be in a mental institution in Peru as opposed to a jail.

BROOKS: Sure. But Jane, you know, yes, they do have the insanity defense there but earlier today on "In Session" we were talking to an international lawyer who has done extensive work in Peru and says that usually the insanity defense in Peru doesn`t fly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And I don`t think any of this behavior is going to fly.

BROOKS: No, it`s not.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The reason being we don`t have juries in Peru; it`s three judges. And they just need a majority, 2 out of 3, to say he`s guilty and that`s it. They have him completely, hook, line and sinker with a 2-3 vote. And he`s infuriating the people of Peru with his behavior undoubtedly.

Thank you all. We`re going to stay on top of the Joran Van Der Sloot saga and bring you the very latest just as it comes in.

Switching gears now, will Cindy Anthony`s own words be used to convict her daughter Casey for the murder of little Caylee. Or will Cindy`s frantic 911 call from July of 2008 never see the light of day in court?


ANTHONY: I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing. Get someone here now.

911 OPERATOR: Your daughter admitted that the baby is where?

ANTHONY: That the babysitter took her a month ago; that my daughter`s been looking for her.

There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Just hours ago the defense and the prosecution battled it out in court. Casey`s defense wants to block the jury from ever hearing that call that you just heard. They claim it`s hearsay and shouldn`t come in but the prosecution says not so fast.

And what does Cindy have to say about the call? She told ABC`s "Good Morning America" she just wanted cops to come quickly.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You didn`t mean that? You just wanted the police out faster, is that what you`re saying?

ANTHONY: Yes, because there was never -- I never thought that.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So why is this 911 call such a huge deal? Especially since half the free world has already heard it over and over and over again?

Straight out to my fantastic expert panel: Beth Karas, correspondent for "in session" on TruTV; and my two powerhouse Florida attorneys, Jayne Weintraub and Mark Eiglarsh.

Mark, the battle over this 911 call is fierce. Why is it such compelling evidence?

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: For the same reason why I think the judge may ultimately let it in because there`s no lying in it. It`s raw. It`s real. It`s spontaneous. It`s filled with emotion. And, thus, you really believe what she`s saying in it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Whichever way the judge rules -- hasn`t everybody, everybody -- everybody watching and listening -- heard Cindy`s 911 call if not once, a dozen times? And we`re going to hear it again.


ANTHONY: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. So I do not understand how this is not going to influence the jury. My big issue, is the jury pool already polluted? Last month the judge decided he`s not moving the trial out of Orlando. They`re going to schlep jurors in from other counties in Florida.

But they`ve got -- everybody has got to have heard this already, Beth Karas.

BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, that is true. The community is pretty super-saturated with news about this case. But that`s primarily Orange County, Orlando. Jose Baez, Casey Anthony`s attorney, said some time ago when he was in Miami and he was picking a jury there a few months ago, only one person out of 60-something recognized him. So in south Florida they`re not all that familiar with the case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I`m going to pretends. They`re going to debate this whole 911 call on July 15th. Fast forward. It`s July 15th.

Jayne Weintraub, you do the defense. Mark Eiglarsh, you do the prosecution. Go for it.

JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The defense is really going to be very simple --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Say what you would say as if you were the defense attorney.

WEINTRAUB: If I were the defense attorney? I would be objecting not on hearsay. I would be objecting because the prejudicial value is so much greater than the probative value that it should not be admitted in the courtroom.

The prosecution does not need this. It is cumulative evidence. And what they`re trying to do is without calling the witness they`re trying to circumvent the rules and play the tape. And that should not be allowed, particularly in a death case, your honor.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ve heard enough from you, counselor. Now Mark Eiglarsh for the prosecution.

EIGLARSH: I thoroughly disagree with my zealous advocate. First of all it`s not going to be considered hearsay and there are exceptions if it is. Excited utterance. Spontaneous statement.

Also, I would argue that it`s not being offered for the truth of the matter asserted, if I`m the prosecutor. It`s offered to show that this is in the context of the lies that Casey was showing and not that there was a real dead body in the car.

So it`s not being offered for the truth of the matter asserted; thus, it`s not hearsay.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t understand --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to understand why it would even be considered hearsay if she actually smelled the dead body in the damn car.

WEINTRAUB: Because she`s a civilian. She`s not an expert. This is a death case of charging first degree murder where you need expert testimony. This isn`t something you leave up to a civilian to speculate.

EIGLARSH: No. She`s a nurse. She`s a former nurse. She knows the smell of death.


KARAS: Jane, they don`t even need this statement. The man who ran the tow yard, who took George Anthony to the car, spoke to the police and said it smelled just like another car they had on the tow yard at the same time where a man committed suicide and was in the car for five days. He said it`s the exact same smell, just not quite as strong. That`s probably more powerful evidence regarding the odor than Cindy Anthony`s words.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And George also said he was a cop and he smelled it and we all know that smell. And didn`t he say that on tape? I believe so talking to the police.


KARAS: He went to the police on July 24th voluntarily. Called up and said I want to come down and talk to you. That`s what he told them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, I just don`t understand why you would use the hearsay argument, Jayne Weintraub. One last shot at it. You speak for the defense.

WEINTRAUB: The defense is going to be that it`s cumulative and, as you said, Jane -- I would call you to the witness stand and say even on national television on Jane Velez-Mitchell, she says the jury has to be polluted by hearing this statement. So how on earth is the jury going to maintain a fair and reasonable standard in evaluating the evidence?

EIGLARH: They all knew about O.J.`s case and they were somehow able to pick a jury in that case so they`ll be able to set that aside.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we know how that turned out. Ok.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Fantastic panel. Thank you so much.

This is a really sad case. A 7-year-old boy vanishes from school; his stepmom the last person to see him. Now she`s being strapped to a lie detector for the second time.

Where is little Kyron Horman? And we`re taking your calls on this. Some really stunning new developments we`re going to tell you about right on the other side of the break.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kyron, we`re going to bring you home, buddy. Nothing is more important to your family, your friends and to us.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Heartbreaking frustration tonight for the family of 7-year-old Kyron Horman. He is still missing after almost three weeks. We know his stepmom had to take a second polygraph test. And Kyron`s mother is writing an open letter begging for her son`s safe return.

Kyron`s stepmother Terri Horman says she brought Kyron to school for a science fair on June 4th but he never made it in to the classroom. Cops will not name anyone a suspect or even a person of interest but they are awfully interested in what Kyron`s stepmother was doing the day the little boy vanished.


JASON GATES, CAPTAIN MULTNOMAH COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: They along with Kyron`s family are asking the community`s assistance regarding anyone who saw not only Kyron but also who may seen Terri Horman, his stepmother and/or the truck that she was driving, the family truck that she was driving that morning.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Cops reviewed the mom`s -- the stepmom`s cell phone records and then ordered the second polygraph.

Kyron`s biological mom is experiencing unimaginable grief. She wrote an open letter to her son saying, "I pray that you come back to me because I am afraid that I can`t live without you," end quote.

It`s a really heartbreaking case. We`ve got to find this adorable little boy. Call me 1-877-JVM SAYS.

Straight out to my fantastic expert panel: clinical psychiatrist Dr. Dale Archer; criminal profiler Pat Brown; and investigative reporter, Michelle Sigona from

Michelle, you`re tracking this case what is the very latest?

MICHELLE SIGONA, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Right now investigators are looking through all the questionnaires that they collected last night Jane, they are searching for new clues making sure they haven`t missed any information.

As of last night, about 100 cars came to the location to drop off these questionnaires. They could have a little over 100. They`re still compiling that information at this particular point.

In addition there are crews on stand-by constantly going out fielding those tips, you know, searching the grounds. There was a search that was conducted on Saturday, but Sunday investigators did not actually have to go back out again.

But today they`re moving forward with hopefully some new information. There are counseling teams on hand throughout the summer to help the students of Kyron`s school.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look, you we`re saying -- you we`re saying that they collected questionnaires.

SIGONA: That`s right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What were the questionnaires about?

SIGONA: The questionnaires they were passed out on Friday, Jane. They were passed out to the parents, the staff, the students of Kyron`s elementary school. They asked pretty specific questions, they show pictures of the stepmother, pictures of the Ford F-250 truck that she was driving, pictures of Kyron, asking for information. Just kind of the events leading up to the time that he went missing.

There was about ten questions on one page and eight questions on another page. So they really want parents to sit down with the children and review them. And there may still be some open questionnaires out there that have not been turned in. They do want you to drop those off at the sheriff`s office.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: My big issue tonight will the cell tell -- the stepmother Terri Horman is not a suspect, she has not been named a person of interest but numerous sources including report she was asked to take a second polygraph because her cell phone records may not match up with what exactly she told authorities.

The cell tower pings might possibly indicate she was on nearby Sauvie Island (ph). Authorities have combed that island but so far turned up nothing. And once again we have to say this stepmother is not considered a suspect or a person of interest.

Kyron`s school, Skyline Elementary, has a Portland address. Sauvie Island is located about ten miles north of the school.

I`ve got to go back to you Michelle, what do you know? What are you hearing about the cell phone issue?

SIGONA: Yes, there are definite reports out there. Of course, investigators aren`t saying for sure what they found but I can tell you that they have been out there dozens of times. There is only one way to access that island by car and that`s over the bridge. You can take a boat there.

But from what I`m told, it`s not very common. There is about two counties that sort of border this particular -- this particular island. In addition, there are homes on there. There`s farmland. And there`s also some businesses. So there could possibly be some surveillance in the area that they were also -- if they do possibly have cell phone records that they were able to match up.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, Pat Brown, criminal profiler, according to what I saw in the "Oregonian" newspaper at 8:15 p.m. the PTA School President sees Kyron and the -- and the stepmother at the exhibit at the school. So they do establish that she did go to the school with the child and then hours later he doesn`t come home on the school bus and then she reports him missing. That`s got to be evidence that would certainly establish that she took him to school. What do you make of this?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, it looks like she took him to school Jane and -- but there`s a lot of time between that science fair and that first class. And that`s what they`re trying to figure out. Is did she leave the school with the child?

Now, the simple fact that they`re passing out a flyer with this woman`s picture, this little boy and her truck, hey, that is -- that is a person of interest, let me tell you. I don`t care what they`re saying.

That`s a huge person of interest because I hardly have ever seen this in another case of a missing child where they have put the parent`s picture up there -- their step parents picture up with their vehicles. They are really looking at this woman. She must have told some stories that just weren`t matching up and they`re all over at this point. Now maybe she didn`t do anything but there are -- you know the red flags are up.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I just want to say that she is not considered a suspect and a lot of people have come to her defense saying she was a wonderful stepmom. You see these two women there? Ok, the woman with the napkin, that`s the biological mother. Here is the stepmother.

And it`s an enmeshed situation, Dr. Dale Archer. The biological mom and the stepmom had been close friends since before this child was born. When the boy was a toddler, according to published reports, the biological mom got sick, went to Canada to seek treatments. That`s when the stepmom moves in to become a caregiver and eventually ends up marrying Kyron`s dad. What do you make of that situation?

DR. DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: Well, I think that first of all the greatest stress that any of us can face as a human being would be the loss of a child. And then if you compound that with the fact that all of a sudden you`re thrust in as a suspect, I can`t imagine what she`s going through.

So I don`t know whether she`s innocent or not. But if she is, to have to go through all of this, the loss and also the suspicion, the polygraph and everything else that`s being thrust upon her, I can just imagine that the stress level has to be overwhelming for this poor woman.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I want to emphasize, she`s not a suspect.

Debby, Illinois, question or thought? Debby? All right, I guess Debby is not there right now.

But, you know, I have to say this, Terri snapped a photo of Kyron at the school fair and then she posted it at 1:21 p.m. So the boy was last seen at 9:00 a.m., Michelle, approximately --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- and then this posting occurs at 1:21.

SIGONA: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do we know what she was doing in between that time?

SIGONA: That`s the part that we don`t know, we don`t know what time exactly she left the school. We just know that Kyron did not show up for his first class. And at 3:45 when he didn`t get off the bus, that`s when investigators were called.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. More on the other side of the break and we`re going to take your calls. Let`s find this child.



KAINE HORMAN, KYRON HORMAN`S FATHER: We would like to thank the media. If it was not for you showing Kyron on every newscast, printing his story in the papers, his face would not be known to everyone. People from around the nation have seen his picture. This helps tremendously. Please help us bring Kyron home.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Kyron`s father pleads for his son`s safe return. How on earth could this little boy just vanish into thin air at school without anybody noticing? Did he go off with a stranger or somebody he knew?

Cops are not ruling anything out. Listen to them.


GATES: I can`t say for certainty that it wasn`t a stranger to stranger. I can`t. But I also can tell you that the need for the public to be alarmed is very low.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And they have reportedly shifted this case to a criminal investigation as the stepmom, who was the last person apparently seen with the child, takes a second polygraph.

Emily, Washington, your question or thought, ma`am?

EMILY, WASHINGTON (via telephone): Hi. Yes, I just want to say, when you look at the mother on -- the stepmother on, when they`re showing her, she looks like she`s forcing her sadness. She`s not like, it`s not a real sadness it seems to me, like the others. She really knows that the cameras are on her and like she`s forcing her sadness.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, again, I think it`s -- thank you, caller, but Dr. Dale Archer, it`s very easy to beat up on this woman and we never know how people react in grief. They often do not react the way we see them react in the movies.

ARCHER: You`re absolutely right, Jane. And everyone grieves in their own way and everyone is going to express it in their own way.

Actually, when I see her there, I`m not picking that up at all. Her grief seems real to me. And I keep coming back to the fact that what would the motive be here? I don`t see anything that would be a motive for her to do anything to this little boy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me just say this. What I picked up as unusual is the enmeshment between these two families. The fact that this is not her biological child, she was a really good friend of the bio mother, the biological mother gets sick, goes up to Canada, she ends up taking care of this child and raising the child as her own. But recently she had her own biological child with Kyron`s father. And she also has another kid who`s a teenager, but that`s another story.

I mean Dr. Dale, that`s called enmeshment, right?

ARCHER: Yes. No doubt the family is completely enmeshed. But then again, that`s not necessarily bad Jane. You can`t look at that and say, ok we`re going to have a problem because of that.

The one thing that could be interesting is the fact, you`re right, she did have her own children -- biological children, so that could be -- there could be a jealousy motive in there, that she`s more partial to them, but it`s not strong. It`s not a strong case in my mind at all.

BROWN: I`m sorry but it sounds creepy to me. I`m sorry. You know, your friend goes off and gets sick, then you get involved with her husband, that`s called adultery. That means betrayal of your friend. Then you have another -- that`s creepy.

ARCHER: Come on, Pat, that doesn`t lead to murder now.

BROWN: It shows maybe that there is a manipulative kind of person there. It shows there may be some kind of personality disorder. I`m not saying there is, but the police are saying this is not likely a stranger-to-stranger crime. It`s extremely low. That is saying a lot. I`m not saying that they can prove anything yet, but they`re pointing that direction.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yet. There`s sex offenders in the area. They recently arrested a homeless sex offender just 20 miles away from his school who tried to abduct a fifth grade boy.

BROWN: Right. So why not him?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: There`s a lot of other options and again, we have to stress, this woman is not a suspect and we have to presume always innocence.

Thank you, fabulous panel. You`re watching ISSUES on HLN.