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CONNECT THE WORLD

Secret Documents Leaked

Aired July 26, 2010 - 16:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JULIAN ASSANGE, WIKILEAKS EDITOR: And it's important to understand this material doesn't just reveal abuses. This material describes casualties of war.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MAX FOSTER, GUEST HOST: A whistleblower publishes some 90,000 U.S. military reports that he says contain evidence of war crimes in Afghanistan. The documents even suggest Pakistan has been aiding the insurgency across the border. As Washington faces ever more pressure to defend the never-ending war, tonight, we ask whether one of the biggest intel leaks in history will be the catalyst for a change in policy.

On CNN, this is the hour we connect the world.

Kabul says it's amazed by the WikiLeak's information. Washington strongly condemns its release. And Islamabad -- Islamabad says it's all lies anyway. This hour, we're going to ask a man who planned Washington's policy in South Asia where they're on a cusp of a big change.

I'm Max Foster in London.

Also tonight...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOLBROOKE, U.S. ENVOY TO PAKISTAN AND AFGHANISTAN: In regard to Afghanistan, here's a country which -- in which both India and Pakistan have interests.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: How the Kabul connection extends to New Delhi. U.S. envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan, Richard Holbrooke, is answering your questions.

And...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The majority of the chamber sentences Kaing Guek Eav to a single sentence of 35 years of imprisonment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Cambodia takes a step toward addressing a traumatic past. We'll explore whether other Khmer Rouge leaders will face charges and how that impacts other genocides around the world.

Connect with the show and all our stories online. You know the address at CNN.com/connect.

First, the international fallout from what a whistleblower Web site calls "the squalor of the Afghanistan War." WikiLeaks has posted documents it says are leaked U.S. military reports filed from the front lines. They reportedly suggest a key U.S. ally is also an enemy when it comes to fighting the Taliban.

Nic Robertson draws on his experience in the region to examine the Afghan War diaries.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a guy in white right there.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Fall 2007 -- U.S. troops fend off a feared attack.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've got one on top of the building right here, too.

ROBERTSON: It is a remote, barely accessible U.S. mountain base, Camp Keating, barely 100 at the time. They had just arrived. They told me a month earlier, a massive Taliban ambush nearby killed the base commander.

CAPTAIN JOEY HUTTO, U.S. ARMY: We had never seen them armed that well. I mean there was numerous rockets. And until someone has come out here, seen this terrain and been in some of these type firefights, you will never understand what these soldiers are trying to express.

ROBERTSON: It was clear then the base was vulnerable. But far worse was to come. Only now are the details of how bad becoming clear. According to "The New York Times," one of the 92,000 documents details a Taliban attack here two years later, as the base was being closed because it was undermanned and ineffective. CNN has not independently confirmed the authenticity of the documents, but according to the newspaper, desperate computer messages were being sent indicating insurgents had made it to the last line of defense.

Support did eventually arrive. Eight soldiers were killed, almost two dozen wounded. It's what WikiLeak boss, Julian Assange, calls "the squalor of war" and why he says he's outed the documents.

ASSANGE: Our goal is just reform. Our message is transparency. But we do not put the method before the goal.

ROBERTSON: Assange says thousands of documents were being held back so names can be removed.

Still, some military experts are upset.

GENERAL MARK KIMMITT, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: None of these documents are being filtered for potential harm that could be done to our troops, revealing vulnerabilities in our troops' location, in our tactics, in our techniques, in our procedures. I -- the only word that comes to my mind is outrage.

ROBERTSON: There is outrage in Pakistan, too. The leaks apparently show Pakistan's intelligence services have been supporting Taliban attacks on U.S. troops, fingering this former intelligence chief in particular.

HAMID GUL, FORMER ISI CHIEF: There is absolutely no truth in what has been said. I have a moderate position which I take and that moderate position is that this was wrong.

ROBERTSON: The allegations, like much that is emerging from the documents so far, are not new, but threaten to destabilize Pakistan's rocky relationship with the U.S. Pakistani officials recently told me they want a friendly government in Kabul, not one that supports their arch rival, India. The implication is the Taliban are their insurance against that happening.

British newspaper, "The Guardian," that, like "The New York Times," has had access to the documents for the past few weeks, says it has compared the military's accounts of events with other sources, concluding in the cases they highlight, civilian casualties have been under-reported.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

FOSTER: Nic Robertson reporting for us there.

Now, the -- the Afghan government says in light of the report, the United States must take serious action against the ISI, which is Pakistan's intelligence service. But Pakistan calls allegations it's aiding the Taliban, quote, "baseless."

Two reports for you now, from both sides of the border.

REZA SAYAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Reza Sayah in Islamabad, where on Monday, government officials aggressively rejected the WikiLeaks reports and described them as an effort to apply pressure on Pakistan. Of course, these types of allegations are nothing new here in Pakistan -- allegations that Pakistan's top spy agency, the ISI, is playing a double game -- on one hand, seemingly helping U.S. and NATO efforts against militants in Afghanistan, but on the other hand, secretly helping the Afghan Taliban fuel the insurgency and plot attacks against U.S. soldiers.

Some U.S. officials and many analysts are convinced that the ISI is still maintaining relations with the Afghan Taliban, with the ultimate goal of securing an ally in Kabul once U.S. forces pull out.

On Monday, both former and current government officials rejected those claims. But there's no doubt that these WikiLeaks reports are going to raise more questions about the ISI and raise doubts that Pakistan is fully on board with the U.S. mission here in the region.

ATIA ABAWI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Atia Abawi in Kabul, Afghanistan, where a press conference with President Hamid Karzai's spokesperson, Waheed Omar, just concluded. He touched on the WikiLeaks. He said that both the president and his staff were shocked at the sheer number of documents that was leaked to the organization, but they were not shocked with what was inside, particularly when it came to civilian casualties and the Pakistani intelligence, the ISI.

Although he wasn't very forceful in his statement today, he said it's because they're still sifting through the documents.

But when we spoke to another government spokesperson earlier in the day, he said that because of these leaks, that the Americans and the international community must answer the question of the ISI once and for all.

FOSTER: Well, for its part, the White House condemns the release of the classified documents, saying it endangers the lives of U.S. troops.

Spokesman Robert Gibbs calls it a breach of federal law.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Any time in which more than 90,000 top secret documents, which are against the law for me to give to you, with -- I think it would -- would be safe to say it's alarming to find 90,000 of them published on a Web site.

The president does not need to read a leaked document on the Internet today to be shocked and horrified by unnecessary -- and every civilian casualty is unnecessary -- casualty of innocent life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Well, Gibbs also said the documents don't uncover any major new revelations, a point our next guest also agrees with.

Daniel Markey worked at the U.S. State Department during part of the time period covered by these classified reports. He's now a senior fellow with the Council On Foreign Relations.

Thank you so much for joining us.

America has just recently announced a massive aid plan for Pakistan, hasn't it?

How does America and the White House justify that to the American people when these documents suggest that, at least behind closed doors, America thinks that Pakistan is doing it dirty in Afghanistan?

DANIEL MARKEY, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Well, first of all, let me say that it's not just behind closed doors. I mean the United States government has been relatively clear about their concerns about what elements of the Pakistani government have been doing and they've been clear about that for years now. Hillary Clinton has said as much on recent trips and so on. So it's not as surprising as all that.

But what the United States government is trying to do is itself, in some ways, a double game. They're trying to win over the Pakistanis at the same time as they -- and certainly privately -- put more pressure on them to do more of the kinds of things that we'd like and less of the kind of things that we're reading about in these 92,000 documents.

FOSTER: But you do get the sense that Washington sees Pakistan as one entity, when, really, there are all sorts of internal discussions in Pakistan, in Islamabad, about how to deal with the Taliban.

So how does Washington have one single policy toward effectively a country that's split politically on this?

MARKEY: Yes, I think -- I think you're absolutely right. Washington is trying to win over allies and potential allies with inducements, with assistance, with cooperation, trying to build up alliances with parts of the Pakistani state and certainly the wider society of Pakistan, which is very skeptical of the United States. They're trying to do that at the same time as they try to play -- place pressure on those parts of the Pakistani state that are still supporting militancy. And that support has been clear. It's been clear that they're supporting the Haqqani network, in particular, that targeted the Indian embassy in Kabul, Afghanistan a couple of years back. And the U.S. government made that clear, made that public.

So that's not all that much surprising that's coming out of this, except for the quantity of documents that have been released.

FOSTER: It's not surprising to people in the know, like yourself. But to the American people, it does seem quite shocking when you see it on the front page of "The Guardian" and "The New York Times," "Der Spiegel".

So won't Washington be under more pressure now to change its policy somehow, because more people who didn't understand it before perhaps understand it a bit more now?

MARKEY: I thought -- I think there will be pressure. And I think we have to understand that we're playing into a very difficult Washington environment, where there's a lot of debate. There is increasing skepticism. We had that "Rolling Stone" article that basically led to the political demise of General McChrystal. We've had a series of other leaks, including the leaks from -- from the Kabul embassy, Ambassador Eikenberry's leaks last winter. All of this has led to a sort of a steady drumbeat of increasing criticism about the war, the conduct of the war and big questions about whether we're fighting it the right way or should be there at all.

This will play into that. This will provide ammunition to skeptics of the war.

But as I said, it's not really all that much new, even though it will play into the political debate.

FOSTER: But that's what we keep hearing, that's nothing new. But this is -- there are a lot of -- there have been lots of suspicions and allegations in the past around this sort of stuff and don't these documents confirm those suspensions and allegations?

So it may not be new, but it is confirmation of what a lot of people are worried about?

MARKEY: Actually, I'm not sure it does confirm these things. What it confirms is that U.S. officials on the ground in Afghanistan believe these points to be true. That point has been made in the past. As I said, the U.S. government has made it clear its broad concerns about connections between the Pakistani intelligence services and the Taliban. They have said so. They've said so privately. They've said so publicly. The -- this collection of documents is less a smoking gun of evidence of Pakistani involvement as evidence that U.S. officials inside of Afghanistan continue to believe and have heard many, many stories, many, many sources suggesting exactly what has been said before.

FOSTER: Well, but we're being...

MARKEY: So it's not -- it's not a -- it's -- it's very raw, but it's -- and unsanitized, but it's not especially new.

FOSTER: And the papers have only just started digging on the information, haven't they?

So we'll probably here more.

David Markey, thank you very much, indeed, for joining us with that.

Now, the war in Afghanistan is not a traditional fight between two players. Just ask Washington's representative to that country and to Pakistan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOLBROOKE: In regard to Afghanistan, here's a country which -- in which both India and Pakistan have interests. And unless those interests can be brought into symmetry and that symmetry aligned with the Afghans', this was could go on indefinitely. So it has to be addressed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Richard Holbrooke there with a dire prediction if India and Pakistan don't get their act together on Afghanistan. He is our Connector of the Day tonight and he's answered your questions about everything from strategy in the region to which is the toughest job he's ever had. We'll speak to him -- or we spoke to him on Friday before that WikiLeaks announcement. That interview is next on CONNECT THE WORLD.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BECKY ANDERSON, HOST (voice-over): Richard Holbrooke is one of the world's most recognize diplomats, with a wealth of experience brokering peace deals. He's currently putting that knowledge to good use. As the U.S. special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, he's monitoring one of the most challenging regions on the planet. Prior to his work for the Obama administration, he was the only person to have held the assistant secretary of State position for two different regions. Holbrooke also served as the 22nd ambassador to the United Nations, where he helped with a successful resolution to tackle HIV and AIDS. And he's pursued a lucrative Wall Street second career.

Now working to get Kabul and Islamabad to join forces against resurgent militant groups, Richard Holbrooke is your Connector of the Day.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

FOSTER: And Becky caught up with Richard Holbrooke last week, prior to that WikiLeaks' announcement.

She began by asking him about his recent trip to Afghanistan and the current strategy of reconciliation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HOLBROOKE: Karzai has announced a reconciliation program. We support it but it must be Afghan-led. And we have three clear red lines. We've been in extensive discussions with our allies about this. And let me be clear what the lines are.

The first one is anyone who wants to be reconciled needs to renounce al Qaeda. Secondly, lay down their arms and participate in the public life of the country in a peaceful way. And, third, accept the constitution with special attention to the role of minorities and women.

Now, there are plenty of people living in Kabul today who used to be with the Taliban who have accepted this. There are members of parliament, there are people in the government who are former Taliban who accepted those -- those red lines in the past.

But in the last few years, Becky, it kind of faded away. And now, with the election -- the Afghan election behind us and Karzai's new commitments, he is going to re-emphasize this.

ANDERSON: Let's join the dots on this story, because it is a regional one, not just an Afghan specific story. Let's talk about Pakistan. Hillary Clinton announced hundreds of millions of dollars worth of aid on this last trip. Pakistan has a long history of misusing and abusing American aid money.

What safeguards do you have this time that this money will not be misappropriated and misused?

HOLBROOKE: This is project money that is for specific projects. She announced eight water projects, eight electricity projects, four health projects. And on these projects, the misappropriation of the funds is very hard to do. They don't -- and we -- we have safeguards in place. And we work very closely on -- with the Congress on this, because it's of enormous importance to all of us that the taxpayer dollars are better spent.

We inherited a very abused system, with no oversight. But we are changing that.

ANDERSON: Michael asks a very simple question. He says: "What will it take for things in Afghanistan to improve?"

HOLBROOKE: Good governance, involvement on Pakistan as part of the solution rather than as part of the problem and effective military operations directed at the really bad elements. Last -- improvements on the corruption issue, training the police more effectively so that -- and the army of Afghanistan -- so that the international forces can withdraw gradually and carefully in a phased and -- and responsible manner.

ANDERSON: Ramesh has written to us from India. And he says you, in India, just recently, to talk about Afghanistan. He said: "What happened?"

HOLBROOKE: Well, I was in India this morning, Ramesh. I -- maybe I ran into you there.

We consult the Indians regularly. We inform them regularly on everything that goes on in Afghanistan and Pakistan in regard to American policy. We are not -- I want to stress this -- we are not intermediating between India and Pakistan, but we will encourage and support any improvement in relations.

In regard to Afghanistan, here's a country which -- in which both India and Pakistan have interests. And unless those interests can be brought into symmetry and that symmetry aligned with the Afghans, this war could go on indefinitely. So it has to be addressed.

ANDERSON: Mr. Holbrooke, do you discourage Indian interests in Afghanistan, given Islamabad's fear of India's influence there?

HOLBROOKE: India's programs -- its aid programs in Afghanistan -- agricultural workers, civil servants, roads, rebuilding the parliament -- which I think are the largest India has in the world, are in the interests of the Afghan people and do not pose a political or strategic threat.

But the hard truth is Pakistan thinks they do and it's part of the issues between the two countries.

India and Pakistan and the United States, for the second time since 1947, for the first time since partition and independence, have a common enemy, a common challenge, a common threat and we need to make common cause.

ANDERSON: Paul asks: "Do you find this job as representative -- special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan -- to be, by far, the most difficult you've ever had?"

And he says: "How does it compare to working in the Balkans?"

HOLBROOKE: Thank you, Paul.

Yes, it is the most difficult job I've ever had. But it doesn't mean I miss Slobodan Milosevic and the war criminals in the Balkans, where I think you and I had our first interview.

ANDERSON: We did.

HOLBROOKE: How does it compare?

It's tougher. It's tougher because awful though the Bosnia Serbs were and terrible as the things that were going on were, the fact is that there was an established government. And it was easier to have access to them and talk about these things than it is in regard to this reconciliation issue you just asked about. It's very amorphous.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

FOSTER: Richard Holbrooke there rounding out our coverage today on Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Tomorrow, our Connector is a symbol of the an -- anti-apartheid movement in the '70s and '80s. Desmond Tutu has dedicated his life to making the world a better place. But just last week he shocked the world by announcing his retirement from public life. But before he goes, he's unveiling one last project. This is your chance to ask questions as part of an exclusive interview with the archbishop. Remember to tell us where you're writing from, though. Head to CNN.com/connect.

Tonight, we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FOSTER: We noticed more people than usual shooting video on Saturday. They may have been taking part in YouTube's Life In A Day experiment. The site wants to create a user-generated documentary film about what life is like on a single day around the world. Everyone's got until July the 31st to submit their videos.

From day in the life videos, though, to the videos that are going viral, today at a train station in Atlanta, a visually impaired woman walks out onto the platform and doesn't stop. She falls directly onto the tracks as a train is approaching. One man rushes to pull her out, with the help of other commuters, the train stops just over a meter from where the woman lay on the tracks.

In New Jersey, a crane that was just too much with for the truck anchoring it. The crane fell on a restaurant roof, got stuck, pulling the truck off the ground where it dangled in midair.

And it was a -- a rough ride for everyone involved in Colorado. A bear climbed into a car and apparently knocked it into neutral. The car rolled downhill, slamming the door shut. The bear was trapped inside for two hours before police tied a long rope to the door handle and Paul the bear ran away. The car's a total loss though.

From videos of the day to photos of the last few millennia, that's the focus of a project by American photographer, Rachel Sussman. She has traveled the globe on a mission to photograph the world's oldest living organisms and she's got some amazing images along the way, as well, like this Loretta plant (ph) in the Atacama Desert in Chile, estimated to be around 3,000 years old. By comparison, this brain coral in Tobago is a -- is a young 2,000 years old.

The oldest organism Sussman has captured so far is this Siberian Adina bacteria (ph) kept at a lab in Copenhagen. It's estimated to be 500 -- 500,000 years old.

Is that possible?

Unbelievable.

This colony of quaking Aspen trees in the U.S. state of Utah caught her eye and her camera lens. It is 80,000 years of age there. Compared to that, this spruce in Sweden is practically still a sapling, with only 9,500 years old.

And this bristle cone pine is even younger -- 5,000 years old. A simple youngun. But this Japanese cedar is keeping its exact age a secret -- locked in time. It's somewhere between 2,000 and 7,000 years old and it's the first organism Susan photographed as part of -- of the project.

You can see all the photos and read more about the project at www.rachelsussman.com.

It really makes you think.

I'm Max Foster.

You're watching CONNECT THE WORLD.

Do stay with us.

The world headlines are just 60 seconds away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FOSTER: You're back with CONNECT THE WORLD.

I'm Max Foster in London.

Coming up, the man who ran a notorious prison in Cambodia is brought to justice for his role with the Khmer Rouge. But some survivors feel it's still not enough.

Then, just three days until the controversial immigration law takes effect in the U.S. state of Arizona. We'll show you what some people in the region are doing to escape it.

And finally, on the football pitch, the tennis court and now in the streets of Paris, Spanish athletes are dominating the summer of 2010. We'll look at how Spain's triumph on the world stage has lifted the mood back home.

All those stories ahead in the show for you.

But first, let's check on the headlines this hour.

A whistleblower Web site says leaked U.S. military documents could provide evidence of war crimes in Afghanistan. WikiLeaks released what it calls "The Afghan War Diaries" -- raw data from 2004 to 2009. The documents reportedly suggest Pakistan's intelligence service is aiding the Taliban. Pakistan denies it, but Afghanistan is urging Washington to take serious action.

A deadly day in Iraq, with at least 25 people dead in three separate bombings. In central Baghdad, a suicide bomber drove a bus into the compound of al-Arabiya TV. Officials say at least six people were killed and 20 others wounded.

Fifty-seven years ago today, former Cuban president Fidel Castro launched an attack that triggered a revolution. The event and today's commemoration took place near Santa Clara, around 250 kilometers southeast of Havana. President Raul Castro didn't give his customary speech. That job fell to Cuba's first vice president.

He'll be 86 when his prison sentence ends, if he lives that long. But that fact has not diminished the outrage felt by Cambodians whose loved ones died in a notorious Khmer Rouge prison. The man who ran it, known as "Duch," was convicted today by a United Nations-backed tribunal. Dan Rivers explains why many consider Duch's sentence is just a sham.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The chamber finds Kaing Guek Eav guilty.

DAN RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He stood apparently emotionless. The diminutive former math teacher who presided over the deaths of more than 14,000 people at a secret torture camp called S-21.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Thirty-five years of imprisonment.

RIVERS (voice-over): Kaing Guek Eav, alias "Comrade Duch" remained impassive. So, too, did those watching on TVs across Cambodia as the 35- year sentence was imposed.

It later emerged he will only serve less than 19 years, taking into account time already behind bars.

KARIM A. A. KHAN, LAWYER FOR CIVIL PARTIES: Given Duch's age and the 19-year sentence that he has to serve from today, the reality is that he'll be an exceptionally old man in all likelihood at the time he is released.

RIVERS (voice-over): But outside, there was fury. Survivor Chum Mey, railing at Duch's demeanor and the sentence, which many felt was too lenient.

THEARY SENG, ORPHANED BY KHMER ROUGE: It's a slap, it's an insult to the survivors, it's an insult to those loved ones lost. So it's not acceptable.

RIVERS (voice-over): These were among the crimes against humanity the court found Duch guilty of presiding over. Inmates of S-21 were tortured to death while shackled to iron bed frames. Scenes of unspeakable brutality uncovered by invading Vietnamese soldiers as they stumbled into S-21 in 1979.

These images showed the world just how depraved Pol Pot's ultra-Maoist experiment had become. Kerry Hamill was among the handful of westerners who were tortured to death inside S-21. Outside the court, brother Rob acknowledged the historic nature of the verdict.

ROB HAMILL, VICTIM'S BROTHER: It's a completion of a journey for my brother. And it -- our family suffered a great deal, and the people of Cambodia suffered enormously. And I only hope this is the first shackle to be broken.

RIVERS (voice-over): For many, this is a landmark in Cambodia's troubled history, that sends a clear message.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Guilty.

RIVERS (voice-over): Dan Rivers, CNN, Phnom Pehn, Cambodia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: Well, let's take a look at genocide, other genocides of the 20th century, and the largest ever was the Nazi Holocaust, which took place between 1938 and 1945. Over 6 million Jews were killed. After the death of Adolph Hitler, other Nazis involved were brought to justice in the Nuremberg Trials.

In 1994, there was the genocide of 800,000 Tutsis in Rwanda. Thousands of people were tried in Rwanda and hundreds were sentence to death before the country abolished the practice.

The Bosnian genocide took place from 1992 to 1995. More than 200,000 Bosnian Muslims were killed by Bosnian Serbs. In 2002, Slobodan Milosevic, former president of Serbia and Yugoslavia, was tried in The Hague on charges of war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide. But Milosevic died of a heart attack before the trial ended.

Today's conviction of Duch comes decades after his crimes, but even with the long delay, many war crimes experts say this trial and others are vitally important moving forward. Melissa Pack joins me. She's Senior Counsel of AEGIS Trust. She also was a prosecutor at the tribunal for Yugoslavia and the special court for Sierra Leone. Thank you very much for joining us.

It does seem as though these sorts of cases are picking up pace over the years. Am I right in making that judgment?

MELISSA PACK, SENIOR COUNSEL, AEGIS TRUST: Yes, you're right. There is now an impetus towards international criminal justice. There's an ICC, a standing international criminal court. And still these what are called ad hoc criminal tribunals, like the Cambodia tribunal, reaching verdicts in cases 20, 30 years old.

FOSTER: Because they're backed by the UN, but they're carried out internally in that country's system.

PACK: That's absolutely right. They're hybrid courts, with mixed panels of judges, mixed prosecutors.

FOSTER: But you'd rather see people work in The Hague, I guess. Because that seems as a more stable system.

PACK: Yes, it is, because it's one that will last and it's one that has the backing of many states. So, yes, I would rather see them in The Hague supporting the International Criminal Court.

FOSTER: But, nevertheless, do you think the business you're in, if I can call it that, has been helped by the Duch trial and the coverage of it, at least?

PACK: Well, I think that what the Duch trial has done is important, but in the context of Cambodia. It has allowed things to be said and spoken of that were previously not spoken, were denied. And so it's been a process that's been very important. As has been the verdict.

FOSTER: It keeps history alive, in a way. Is that a fair thing to say?

PACK: That's absolutely right. Yes.

FOSTER: So we're reminded of what happened.

PACK: We're reminded of what happened and we bring perpetrators to account, most importantly.

FOSTER: And it does happen, so therefore, in other countries, if something similar happens, people can expect a similar process of events to unfold eventually at least.

PACK: That's right. They can expect in 30 years time, 20 years time, 10 years time, that international justice will reach them. Will reach perpetrators of international crimes.

FOSTER: Are you confident that that is increasingly the case?

PACK: I'm not confident that it's always the case. But I am hopeful that it is increasingly the case and it will continue to be.

FOSTER: Because there are people accused of war crimes who the international community wants to try. People in Africa, for example. That's not happening, so that makes you a bit disillusioned, doesn't it, in the whole system?

PACK: Well, it's very much about what powerful states want, often, international justice. There's an ICC which requires the consent of states to take part in it, or the consent of a security council. So it's very much contingent on what states want to do in the powerful states, and the ones that haven't, unfortunately, signed up to the ICC.

FOSTER: But you think increasingly you will see all states signing up to the ICC?

PACK: Let's say I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful that there is an impetus towards it, and at one point, I don't think they'll be able to not sign up to it.

FOSTER: And being involved in these cases, you see all the people involved. You saw a very emotional relative, of courser, involved in the Duch trial. It must be so incredibly hard to keep focused on what you're doing. Because what you're dealing with is so profound. You just can't get your head around it, because this happens on a large scale. Is that right?

PACK: Yes. It's very distressing, but you have to retain your objectivity because you are representing the interests of people who've suffered unimaginable horrors, and you want to do your best by them. And what you do is often inadequate. It's not just about international criminal justice, but you do your best.

FOSTER: Well, thank you very much for your view inside this critical story.

Coming up next, some immigrants who might be affected by a controversial new law in the US state of Arizona are crossing over borders to escape. We'll tell you where they're going. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FOSTER: You're looking there at the scene in Phoenix, Arizona last week as protestors took the streets outside the federal courthouse. Inside that courthouse, a judge was hearing a challenge to Arizona's controversial new immigration law, which is set to take effect this Thursday. The law will require the police to question people about their immigration status if they have been detained for another reason and if there is a reason to suspect that they are in the United States illegally.

Welcome back to CONNECT THE WORLD. Opponents of the new law say it'll promote racial profiling. Authorities in Arizona say they're just enforcing federal law. But some illegal immigrants aren't waiting around to find out who wins that argument. They've already crossed another border into the US state of New Mexico. And that's where CNN's Gabriela Frias is now. Gabriela?

GABRIELA FRIAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, Max. As you can see, this is Las Cruces, this is the second stop of our CNN bus tour. We will be headed to Phoenix in the next couple of days.

But here in Las Cruces, this is the second-largest city in New Mexico. As you know, Governor Bill Richardson has stated that SB 1070, the Arizona law, is a big mistake. It will OK racial profiling. But the people in Las Cruces have already been feeling racial profiling. We've been talking to representatives of civil rights groups here, Hispanic civil rights groups, and they have documented -- they say they have documented and have been witness to racial profiling by the police.

We visited -- we were able to visit two different neighborhoods. One of them, Picacho, we were able to talk to a gentleman, David Green, and he was telling us that he, by the way, raised a family in Phoenix, and he says it is OK to have a law like the Arizona one because something needs to be done with -- when it comes to illegal immigration.

On the other side of the story, we were also able to visit a poor neighborhood in the outskirts of Las Cruces, Baro (ph), community of Baro (ph). And there, you could be a witness of many families, Hispanic families who have been here for years, decades. And some of them are still undocumented. The problem with this is that some of these immigrants have had to hide from the local authorities that are patrolling that area. And families have been broken. We got to meet two little kids, eight, ten years old, whose father has been deported to Juarez.

So, passion, or the opinions are divided. You can tell. And people are already getting nervous by a law like the Arizona law. But they're already feeling that racial profiling here, Max.

FOSTER: Some people maybe watching confused by the fact that there's one very strong law like this in one state, and a completely different one in another state. But that's, I guess, just the way -- the system of America, right? If you could just explain that.

FRIAS: Well, what's happening here in Las Cruces and these civil rights groups are telling us is that the police are stopping -- if you violate any law, if you cross a red light in your car, they would be stopped and that would give them the excuse to ask for their documents. But some police officers, they say, have been asking also about their illegal -- about their immigration status, and some of them have been deported in that way.

The Arizona law would make it legal for a law enforcement officer, while enforcing other law, to ask or question a person's immigration status if he has a reasonable doubt or suspects that the person is in the country illegally, Max.

FOSTER: OK, Gabriela in New Mexico, thank you very much indeed.

In the United States, escaping immigration law can be as simple as crossing a state border, but illegal immigrants elsewhere in the world can face a much more treacherous journey, especially children. CNN's Paula Newton has this report from Calais, in France.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is hardly a place a child should call home. But on the shores of northern France, hundreds of children camp out, waiting for the chance to smuggle themselves into Britain.

NEWTON (on camera): Those are the ferries on their way to Britain. It's the shortest point between France and Britain. This is the parking lot area, and this is where people tend to camp out, looking for their chance to climb onto those trucks and sneak into Britain.

Mr. Safie (ph) here, going to take us over to their camp. They've been sleeping rough here for quite a while, yes? OK, let's go have a look.

NEWTON (voice-over): And it doesn't take us long to find 15-year-old Javid (ph).

NEWTON (on camera): Did you pay a smuggler to bring you here?

JAVID (ph) (through translator): Of course.

NEWTON (voice-over): Javid's (ph) family paid $14,000 to a smuggling ring in Afghanistan to get him out of the country and into Britain.

NEWTON (on camera): Why?

JAVID (ph) (through translator): Because of the danger of my life.

NEWTON (voice-over): Javid (ph) says he can never go back to Afghanistan because the Taliban would kill him.

And yet he, like most, says he is unwilling to claim asylum in France. He says he is keen to get to Britain, since he believes he is more likely to be granted asylum there and find a job.

Staff from the UNHCR, the UN refugee agency, try to talk to Javid after our interview. They want him to claim asylum in France. He says he is afraid of deportation back to Afghanistan. The UNHCR says Europe is failing these children, now caught up in a tangle of European laws and the threat of deportation. A policy they say should not apply to minors.

WILLIAM SPINDLER, UNHCR: Europe really needs to address this issue. It's really heartbreaking to see children living in these conditions here in Calais and in other cities in Europe. There are tens of thousands of children from Afghanistan, from Somalia, from Iraq, from Sudan, from Eritrea, roving Europe, going from one country to another, looking for protection.

NEWTON (on camera): And where do you want to go?

KALID (ph) (through translator): England.

NEWTON (voice-over): Fourteen-year-old Kalid is a newcomer to Europe from Afghanistan. Every day, he says, he tries to smuggle himself onto a truck headed for Britain. He says, like most others here, he tries to hide himself between the truck's trailer and the wheels. He's been caught every time, but he says he won't stop trying.

NEWTON (on camera): It's dangerous. You can be killed.

KALID (ph) (through translator): They have no choice.

NEWTON (voice-over): Kalid claims he has no choice. His family has paid to get him this far, and he is determined to make it to Britain. There are many more like him, living on the streets of Europe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Why? My life is -- all my life is -- I'm 14 years old, so what will happen to me?

NEWTON (on camera): Ten years you've been on the road like this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yes. Ten years.

NEWTON (on camera): All over Europe. And these are the kinds of desperate stories that we're hearing from people all over here. The problem, they seem invisible, but as you can see, it's still here.

NEWTON (voice-over): With no cohesive European strategy or law, authorities take few steps to get these children off the streets. The local authority here in Calais tells CNN there is very little it can do if the minors themselves do not want to stay in France. The Calais regional government quotes The Convention of the Rights of the Child, saying, "The idea is that we must respect the minors' rights. We must let them make their choice."

But aid groups say these children remain vulnerable, more likely to suffer violence and exploitation, as they pursue their goal of asylum in Britain. Paula Newton, CNN, Calais, France.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: CNN is devoting a special week of coverage to the worldwide debate over immigration and the conflicts that arise because of it. It's an issue that knows no specific borders, and we'll look at all the viewpoints.

And on Thursday, we'll bring you a special edition of CONNECT THE WORLD, and we want to hear from you. Has immigration affected your life? How do you feel about the immigration policies in your country? Do head to our website and tell us, cnn.com/connect. We'll have many of your comments on Thursday's show.

But do stay with us tonight. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FOSTER: Yesterday, Spain's Alberto Contador won the grueling Tour de France. It's his third win in four years. Contador hails from a nation that's on a white-hot winning streak. Lola Martinez looks at Spain's domination in the sporting arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LOLA MARTINEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When Alberto Contador rode down the Champs Elysees in Paris, it was his third Tour de France win, and the second in two years. And it capped a victorious summer for Spain's sporting heroes.

First, there was Rafael Nadal, winning grand slam tennis titles at both Roland Garros in Paris and Wimbledon. It was the second time he had won both the French and English championships in the same year. The world's number one has eight grand slam titles now, and is still only 24 years old.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (through translator): Nadal is truly an inspiration. He gives the game everything he has. I get so excited when I watch him play.

MARTINEZ (voice-over): Spain's love of basketball continued when Pau Gasol won the NBA championships with the LA Lakers for the second year in a row.

The came the highlight of the year as Spain's national football team won the World Cup for the first time, setting off wild celebrations across the country. The team returned to a hero's welcome in Madrid, which included a reception with King Juan Carlos at the royal palace, a welcome home for La Roja from Prime Minister Zapatero, and huge crowds along the route through the capital, despite searing heat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (through translator): What a team. Incredibly professional players. They have been simply amazing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (through translator): All this success makes me feel extremely happy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (through translator): All these victories give me great satisfaction and make me feel proud.

MARTINEZ (voice-over): There was more enthusiasm in Spain's heartland than in Barcelona, which considers itself Catalan first and Spanish second. But even there, 75,000 people took to the streets to celebrate.

The World Cup victory helped Spaniards to escape their anxiety about the economic situation, at least for a few days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (through translator): There's been a change in people's attitudes. There's more optimism in the air.

MARTINEZ (voice-over): Now, more celebrations as Alberto Contador's hometown celebrates another yellow jersey.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (through translator): I think Contador can win as many titles as Armstrong, or even more than him. Contador is simply amazing.

MARTINEZ (on camera): Spain's economic crisis can't be wished away. Unemployment is at a record high, and the economy is stagnant. But Spaniards are crazy about sport, and the succession of trophies and triumphs this summer has done wonders in lifting the national mood. Lola Martinez, CNN, Barcelona, Spain.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: Well, with luck you can win every now and then, but consistent victories require outstanding talent. This raises some intriguing questions we want to ask. Why Spain, and why now? Patrick Snell joins us from CNN Center to answer these questions for us.

PATRICK SNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Max. We're definitely seeing - -

FOSTER: Tough questions to answer, I guess.

SNELL: Something in the Spanish air, something in the Spanish water, if you like. Alberto Contador, of course. But let's start off with the Spanish football team and the success they've been enjoying in recent months. This is not a new thing, though, we have to say. We can chart this back to 2008.

These huge World Cup celebrations absolutely amazing to see, and richly deserved, in my view. Of course, Spain becoming the first team ever to lose its opening World Cup game to the Swiss, and then going on to actually win the tournament. No nation has ever done that.

But you can take that back to pre-2008, when they won the European football championships for the first time ever. That was under the head coach Luis Aragones. And now, of course, we've seen the continuation under Vicente del Bosque as well.

So I think this is the culmination of what has been set in progress over the last couple of years or so. And, of course, no real surprise to many who follow the game so studiously, including us, of course, at "World Sport," that Spain would go on to win their first-ever World Cup.

They have high quality players, they have players who I think matured very nicely indeed. And you combine that with the youth of players like Cesc Fabregas, for example, and the vintage performances we saw with David Villa, it's just a wonderful mix that's come to fruition at just the right time.

Now, of course, the other guy leaping to my mind is the world number one tennis star, Rafael Nadal. And he's just -- I met this kid when he was 16. He was a nervous, shy teen at Wimbledon playing in his first Wimbledon, and I thought back then at 16, this guy has potential. Did I think he would ever go on and become a world number one player? Well, perhaps not. To win on grass at Wimbledon, which he's done twice now, is spectacular.

And I just think it's the confidence that exudes, Max. We see it in all manners of Spanish sports right now. Nadal is a huge talent, and he's just been able to transfer his dominance from the clay at Roland Garros into Wimbledon.

And I think it's something about the Spanish sunshine as well. The way they train. Nadal is based in Majorca, he doesn't move anywhere else. He doesn't need to. He's got great coaches and great weather in Majorca. He spends a lot of time, too, in Barcelona. Max, back to you.

FOSTER: What a great lifestyle. Patrick, thank you so much indeed.

Well, England might not be having much luck at the national level, but in club football, at least, they have Manchester United. The Red Devils are led by one of the world's most famous managers, Alex Ferguson. Sir Alex sat down recently with "World Sport's" Terry Baddoo in an interview that will debut on the next World Sport at around 13 minutes from now. Among the topics discussed, how Fergie has lasted so long at Old Trafford.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEX FERGUSON, MANAGER, MANCHESTER UNITED: Some fantastic people, of course, which demands a challenge all the time. Every day of every year, we have the challenge of being at the top. And I think that helps me.

The second thing is, I think you need good energy. Natural energy, which I have a good voice, so I'm fortunate about that.

And a third thing is, I can keep going as long as my health keeps going. And that is -- well, the same applies to every person. I'm 68, and so far, my health has been standing up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: To hear much more, turn into the next "World Sport" at the bottom of the next hour, 22:30 in London, 23:30 central Europe. We'll also air it in later editions of "World Sport" as well.

I'm Max Foster, you're watching CONNECT THE WORLD. Do stay with us. The world headlines are up next after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FOSTER: Art on display as we go through the lens tonight. Our World in Pictures starts in Pakistan, where this art designer in Rawalpindi turns a draw into an elaborate painting. This shot combines the old and the new, in addition to the decorative pieces of furniture. There's also a mural of Spider-Man there.

A painter decorates the wall of a school in one section of Berlin. The area's known for its street art. This is a mural with a message, showing former Philippine president Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo inside a jail. Protestors want the new government to prosecute her.

From India, a slipper belonging to a pro-democracy activist lies in a caricature of a senior Myanmar military leader, who's currently on a state visit there.

Colorful art. Tonight's World in Pictures.

To return now to one of the stories we brought you earlier, the controversial new immigration law set to take effect on Thursday in the US state of Arizona. On our website today, we asked you to share your thoughts on immigration where you live. We got a great response.

Mike writes, "I don't condone illegal immigration, but stop and think of how desperate these people's lives must be for them to resort to illegally coming into the US across a desert or in the back of a crowded truck."

Margaret weighs in from Canada, writing, "I am in favor of managed immigration that ensures new immigrants can stand on their own feet with some help and assimilate into Canadian culture."

And Carlos is siding with Arizona. He writes, "I am sympathetic towards those who seek a better life, but not at the expense of breaking laws to do so."

A programming note from us. Archbishop Desmond Tutu has announced that he'll retire from public life in October. We'll talk to him about that tomorrow when he's our Connector of the Day. What do you want to ask him? Do go to cnn.com/connect to submit your questions.

Got a word there from me tonight. I'm Max Foster, that is your world, connected. "BackStory's" next, but we're going to get a summary of the headlines for you first.

END