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President Obama's Faith in the Spotlight; Interview With Massachusetts Congressman Edward Markey

Aired August 19, 2010 - 22:00   ET


JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: what as many as one in four Americans believe about the president of the United States that simply isn't so, that President Obama is a Muslim, 18 percent in one poll, 24 percent in another.

You have heard plenty of rumors, innuendo, even supposed confessions from the president himself. Tonight: the facts and how they got so distorted, including firsthand testimony from one of Mr. Obama's pastors. We're "Keeping Them Honest" tonight.

Also, a nation divided. The woman who Dr. Laura Schlessinger dissed on the air, what she says about the racial rant, the N-word, and Dr. Laura's claim that she's the real victim in all of this.

Later on, "Crime & Punishment": We revisit a pharmacy that sold us dangerous prescription drugs online without us ever seeing a doctor. That was two years ago. The FBI launched a major investigation to do what took us just a few weeks. So, why did it take them two years to get results?

Well, we begin tonight "Keeping Them Honest" with a very simple fact: President Barack Obama is not a Muslim. There is no evidence that he is and plenty of evidence that he is not.

We say it right off the bat because 60 percent of the growing number of Americans who believe he is Muslim say they learned it from the media.

Well, you didn't learn it from us.

The numbers come from Pew Research, new polling with this bottom line: Just 34 percent of people surveyed believe President Obama is, in fact, Christian. Eighteen percent say he's Muslim -- 18 percent. That's nearly one in five Americans, up from 11 percent in just March of last year.

News of the numbers not interrupting the first family's vacation on Martha's Vineyard, but a White House spokesman did see the need to come forward and tell us this -- quote -- "President Obama is a committed Christian. He prays every day. He seeks a small circle of Christian pastors to give him spiritual advice and counseling."

Still, the number of Americans who believe he is a Muslim is staggering, especially considering that one of the president's biggest campaign problems, you will recall, was dealing with Reverend Jeremiah Wright, his controversial pastor. Again, that's pastor, not imam.

But the Muslim notion just won't die. We Googled the phrase Obama is a Muslim and got -- listen to this -- nearly 15 million hits. Go to Web sites like this one and you get the headline, "I am a Muslim, Obama tells Egyptian Foreign Minister Gheit. Islamic coup on the White House."

Well, guess who posted that? Pamela Geller, quoting an Israeli magazine quoting the Egyptian foreign minister on Egyptian TV quoting President Obama's supposedly secret confession. You get the idea.

You can believe that, or you can believe the Reverend Kirbyjon Caldwell, a spiritual adviser to Presidents Obama and George W. Bush. He's quoted in today's "New York Times" as saying this: "Never in the history of modern-day presidential politics has a president confessed his faith in the lord, and folks basically call him a liar."

But they are on conspiracy theory Web sites, talk radio, nutty newsletters, and, yes, on television news, the better outlets merely covering the controversy, the not-so-better ones stoking it.

Either way, the country, as Madge the Palmolive lady once said, is soaking in it.


MICHAEL SAVAGE, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Of course, he had a background, as you well know, in a Muslim madrasas in Indonesia. Hussein Obama is his name. He had a Muslim father.



TONY BLANKLEY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: It's not a coincidence that the first president whose father was a Muslim, some Americans think, maybe, like father, like son.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A fist bump, a pound, terrorist fist jab? The gesture everyone seems to interpret differently.



RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Some think he's a Muslim. I'm just saying there might be reasons why some people think this.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "COUNTDOWN WITH KEITH OLBERMANN") KEITH OLBERMANN, HOST, "COUNTDOWN WITH KEITH OLBERMANN": In one poll, one out of five Americans thinks the president is a Muslim in secret.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's at least a Marxist and he surely understands the Muslim culture.



JOHN KING, HOST, "JOHN KING, USA": A growing number of Americans believe President Obama is a Muslim.



BRIAN WILLIAMS, HOST, "NBC NIGHTLY NEWS": Just under 20 percent of the American people believe the president is a Muslim. He is not.



LIMBAUGH: Why can't we call Imam Obama America's first Muslim president? What's wrong with it? Somebody tell me.


ROBERTS: A sampling, for better or worse, of just what's out there.

More of the reasons why now and some other hard facts to debunk the rumors from Tom Foreman, who's "Keeping Them Honest."


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I didn't become a Christian until many years later, when I moved to the South Side of Chicago after college.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The poll showing a growing number of Americans believing Barack Obama is Muslim caught even the researchers off guard.

(on camera): Were you surprised by the results of this?

ALAN COOPERMAN, PEW RESEARCH CENTER: Yes, I was. And I -- but I was less surprised by the increase in the percentage of people who think Barack Obama is a Muslim than I was surprised to see that, even among his supporters, groups like Democrats or African-Americans, that the percentage who think he's a Christian has dropped, and it's dropped by substantial numbers.

FOREMAN (voice-over): So, why did that happen? The president has suggested his name, Muslim father and childhood in Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim country, are part of the problem. And political realities have fanned the fire.

REVEREND JEREMIAH WRIGHT, TRINITY UNITED CHURCH OF CHRIST: God (EXPLETIVE DELETED) America -- that's in the Bible -- for killing innocent people!

FOREMAN: First, in the heat of the campaign, even as he successfully courted Christian voters, candidate Obama suffered a very public break from his longtime Christian pastor, Jeremiah Wright, who was denounced by many as a radical.

Then there was his infamous comment about communities devastated by high unemployment...


OBAMA: And it's not surprising then that they get bitter, and they cling to their guns or religion.


FOREMAN: ... suggesting to some that he's never clung to religion and couldn't identify with anyone who has.

Second, as president he reached out to the Muslim world with visits to Egypt and Turkey.

OBAMA: Assalamu alaikum.


FOREMAN: But pundits have suggested he's not been as aggressive about maintaining relations with older, more Christian allies.

(on camera): And, third, the vast majority of people who say the president is a Muslim told Pew they learned that through the media and the Internet. And YouTube is filled with video clips offering alleged proof.

(voice-over): A popular one comes from a campaign interview with ABC News, in which he seemingly confesses.


OBAMA: You're absolutely right that John McCain has not talked about my Muslim faith.

FOREMAN: Some sites stop it right there, but the whole clip reveals that's not what he meant at all.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Christian faith.

OBAMA: My Christian faith.


FOREMAN (on camera): Still, the president and his family are almost never seen anywhere near a church and even though the White House is once again saying that he prays daily, talks with ministers and takes his beliefs very seriously, as the president's political popularity drops, America's faith in his faith is falling, too -- John.


ROBERTS: Tom Foreman tonight -- Tom, thanks so much.

In addition to Pew Research, "TIME" magazine also commissioned a poll on Muslims in America, and it, too, got some striking results. We will get to that in just a moment.

But, first, more on the Pew poll and the president's religious affiliation.

Joining us now is Professor Akbar Ahmed. He's the chair of Islamic studies at American University. And Joel Hunter, the senior pastor of Northland Church, he's a spiritual adviser to President Obama.

Pastor Hunter, start us out here. How did it ever get to this point?


JOEL HUNTER, SPIRITUAL ADVISER TO PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, the president's decision to keep his faith more private and more personal also has a downside.

While he's very active with several of us, the fact that he is not going very public in a visible way, and, therefore, not defining his spiritual life, per se, allows others to step into that vacuum and define it for him. And there are many gullible and many maliciously gullible people around.

ROBERTS: Ambassador Ahmed, the White House has been dealing with this rumor for years now, but, even so, when this poll came out, White House spokes -- spokespeople felt they needed to come out and twice during the day knock it back.

Why does the White House need to even spend one second on this? What's -- what is driving it? What's really behind this?

AKBAR AHMED, ISLAMIC STUDIES CHAIR, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: I think they're being too defensive, John, because it's the environment, the social environment in which we are living. To suggest that President Obama is a Muslim, which he is not -- he is a Christian -- he has said that again and again -- is really to associate him with Islam.

And Islam today has an atmosphere around it of distrust, of hatred, of paranoia. And the tragedy is that that is the real target, the bigger target. That's what we're seeing on the global stage. And we're hearing Islam is evil. It's equated to Nazism and so on.

And the tragedy is that we are not learning from our own founding fathers. President Obama referred to Jefferson at the White House iftar dinner the other night last week. Jefferson, John Adams, Franklin, again and again, expressed the highest respect for Islam itself, the prophet and the Koran.

I think these Americans who are being so critical of Islam and dismissing it really need to read up on their own founding fathers.

ROBERTS: Ambassador Ahmed, in terms of the suspicion and mistrust of Islam generally across America, that's where we want to bring in this "TIME" magazine poll.

First of all, one of the findings in the "TIME" magazine poll, almost one in four people believe that President Obama is a Muslim. There it is, 24 percent. But here's some of the other findings. Twenty-eight percent of people asked do not think that a Muslim should be allowed to sit on the Supreme Court.

Thirty-two percent do not think a Muslim should be allowed to run for president. And 25 percent don't think that Muslims are patriotic Americans.

Pastor Hunter, what do these poll numbers tell us about how America in general perceives the Islamic faith?

HUNTER: Well, Americans in general are ignorant of the Islamic faith. And ignorance belies itself to fear.

There are a lot of people -- I -- I get e-mails every week of -- of Christians that are fearful of Muslims and the Islamic faith. And they have a total misunderstanding. And because of that -- again, because it's not well-defined in their mind, they fill in the blanks, or, even worse, allow those who are hostile to differences to fill in the blanks for them.

ROBERTS: Ambassador Ahmed, you and I talked via e-mail on this a couple of nights ago, after we had Pam Geller in here, who swears up and down that the 9/11 hijackers were practicing a -- quote -- "true form of Islam," when other people, including White House spokesman Ari Fleischer after the 9/11 attacks, said it was a perversion of Islam.

The type of Islam that the 9/11 hijackers were practicing, how would you characterize it?

AHMED: John, by simply answering that my parents -- my mother is of descent of aristocracy of nobility My father is descended from sages and Sufi saints of Islam, and they have a thousand-years background of Islam. For them, Islam means the Koran, which is defined -- which defines God as rahman and rahim. That's compassionate and merciful. The prophet is defined as a mercy unto mankind. My father believed in this and practiced it. My grandfather did this. And so do I.

For me, this notion of Islam being evil and hurtful and vicious and violent is rejected, whether Muslims are doing this or whether other people are interpreting Islam in this manner.

I really think other people who are defining Islam need to sit back and let Muslims define themselves. Whether they agree with this violence or not, that is the debate. I, for one, would totally reject it.

ROBERTS: And, Pastor Hunter, finish us off here, if you would.

Of course, all of this has risen to the surface again because of tensions over the proposed mosque at Ground Zero. It's not the only one, though, that is facing opposition. There's a mosque in Nashville, Tennessee, that has been protested, one in Temecula, California.

You know, the administration, the Bush administration -- and we know that you were a spiritual counselor to President Bush as well -- said again and again and again, this is not a war against Islam; it's a war against terrorists.

Is that message not getting through?

HUNTER: No, it's not.

As a matter of fact, it's a war against our own founding principles when we discriminate in the free expression of a religion. And so we have got to guard our Constitution. We have got to guard who we are as a people. And that's the real focus here. Today, it's Islam. Today, it may be Buddhism. The next day, it may be Christianity.

And so we have to be very, very careful about how we handle our fears and how we address differences.

ROBERTS: Terrific discussion tonight. Gentlemen, thanks so much for being with us. We really appreciate it.

AHMED: Thank you.

HUNTER: You're welcome.

ROBERTS: And let us know what you think tonight. Join the live chat going under way at

Coming up next: new evidence that there could be more oil in the Gulf of Mexico than the government said. And remember when officials said their report had been reviewed extensively by other researchers? Well, maybe not. You will hear from Congressman Ed Markey, who is pretty fired up about all of this. And later on: both sides of the radio conversation that cost Dr. Laura Schlessinger her job -- Dr. Laura and the woman who called with the question about her interracial marriage and got an earful of the N-word in return.


ROBERTS: There's more evidence tonight that government estimates of how little of BP's leaked oil remains in the Gulf of Mexico simply do not add up. You will recall the estimate was just 26 percent.

But, today, scientists at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute said they detected a massive plume of undersea oil back in June, that it's likely still out there and likely has company.

Also, remember when that government estimate came out back on the 5th? Officials bragged about how it had been checked and double- checked by other scientists, in the words of White House adviser Carol Browner, peer review, peer review, peer review.

Well, in the words of Congressman Ed Markey, who held hearings on it today, not so fast, not so fast, not so fast.

We spoke with him earlier.


ROBERTS: You were really concerned about this report that it was released too early before it had been peer-reviewed?

REP. EDWARD MARKEY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: My concern is that -- that, while this report was released last week, we have yet to really see the backup work, the homework that was attached to it. And now it will be peer-reviewed.

My view is that the -- the algorithms, the assumptions should be released right now...


MARKEY: ... so that independent scientists can do an evaluation as to whether or not they believe that the assumptions that were made by NOAA and the other agencies were, in fact, valid.

ROBERTS: There's a couple of other studies out there, of course the one from the University of South Florida that we talked about earlier this week that found there are droplets of oil, dispersed oil, and dispersant widely spread throughout the De Soto Canyon.

And then there's another new one that has just come out from the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution -- it's actually being published tomorrow in the "Science" journal -- found a huge plume of oil beneath the surface at a depth of about 3,600 feet, 20 miles long, a mile wide, 600 feet deep in -- some 600 feet thick in some places, with the belief that that's toxic to marine life, another -- another troubling development here. MARKEY: Well, what Woods Hole Oceanographic has found is that they there were underwater plumes that were created after this spill began.

And, again, as you point out, they were 20 miles long, a couple of miles wide, very, very large. In addition, what Woods Hole also found was that, contrary to what the federal government was saying, which is that the water -- that is, the oil was dispersing relatively quickly, they found that the oil was, in fact, dispersing relatively slowly.


MARKEY: And, so, there's a big difference now.

And the Woods Hole study has been peer-reviewed. So, that's why I think it is important for there to be a public dissemination of the assumptions of the federal government, so that the independent scientists can do, in real time, that peer review work.

ROBERTS: The fact that the Woods Hole study was peer-reviewed means that the data is actually older than perhaps some other data. The readings were taken back in June.

But the chief scientist on the project, Dr. Richard Camilli, said, given the amount of oil that we have out there and the slow rate at which it's degrading, this oil could be with us for some time.

What are your concerns about that?

MARKEY: I think that we need to ensure that there is a cop on the beat. We have to make sure that people don't, basically, allow themselves to be lulled to sleep by the ads by BP on every television station.

There is still a massive environmental catastrophe taking place. Yes, perhaps on the surface, the oil has stopped. But there is internal bleeding in the Gulf of Mexico.

This toxic combination of dispersants and oil is still there for a large part of the Gulf. We have to make sure that the work is done.

ROBERTS: Well, we know, Mr. Chairman, that you are committed to following until to the end, as are we here at CNN, even if it takes years.

Congressman Ed Markey, thanks so much for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it.

MARKEY: Thank you. Thanks for having me on.


ROBERTS: And just ahead tonight: Dr. Laura, the woman she directed her racial rant at, and what Sarah Palin is saying about it all. Yes, it had to happen. She's tweeting again. Later, "Crime & Punishment" and why it took the FBI so long to get action on pharmacies allegedly selling dangerous drugs online. It's a story that we uncovered two years ago.


ROBERTS: A very full hour here on 360, and a lot more to cover tonight.

Joe Johns here now with a 360 bulletin.

Hi, Joe.


Military officials now say there are now about 52,000 U.S. troops still in Iraq. That is after the last full combat convoy crossed into Kuwait overnight. All combat troops are scheduled to leave Iraq by the end of August. President Obama has vowed that all U.S. forces will be out by 2011.

Officials have deemed a security threat to an American Airlines plane in San Francisco non-credible. Passengers on Flight 24 bound from San Francisco to New York were removed from the plane before it took off after security officials received a telephone threat. No arrests were made.

Flash flood warnings are in effect Thursday for parts of Middle Tennessee, after heavy rains battered the state overnight. The rain comes as some residents are still recovering from devastating floods that hit Tennessee in May, leaving dozens of people dead.

And take a look at this police chase. It started in Central Dallas and ended on an airport runway of Love Field, when a man...


JOHNS: ... in a pickup truck was bumped and hemmed in by squad cars chasing him. The airport was shut down for about 10 minutes during the incident.

A Dallas television station reported that the police had suspected that truck was stolen.

You know, it's funny. When you watch those things, after a while, a lot of time, it seems like they're not driving very fast at all.

ROBERTS: Well, you know, is it that -- those runways are so long, it probably is all perspective. But he looked like a man desperately in need of a Slater slide in order to escape.




ROBERTS: What was he thinking about?

JOHNS: I know. It's amazing. Surely, you know, if the police don't, the TSA will.



ROBERTS: Somebody is going to get you.


ROBERTS: All right.

Joe Johns tonight -- Joe, thanks so much.

Next on 360, we will hear, not only from Dr. Laura on her use of the N-word, but also from the woman who was on the receiving end of her rant.

And tonight's "Crime & Punishment": a suspected Internet drug ring finally taken down by the feds. You will see why we underscore the word "finally."


ROBERTS: In just a moment here, you are going to hear from the woman who called into Dr. Laura Schlessinger's radio show for advice and got an earful of the N-word.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How about the N-word? Now, the N-word's been thrown around.

DR. LAURA SCHLESSINGER, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Black guys use it all the time. Turn on HBO, listen to a black comic, and all you hear is (EXPLETIVE DELETED) (EXPLETIVE DELETED) (EXPLETIVE DELETED).


SCHLESSINGER: I didn't spew out the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) word.



SCHLESSINGER: Right. I said that's what you hear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody heard it.

SCHLESSINGER: Yes, they did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I hope everybody heard it.


SCHLESSINGER: You -- they did. And I will say it again.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, what makes it...


SCHLESSINGER: Why don't you let me finish a sentence?


SCHLESSINGER: Don't take things out of context. Don't NAACP me.


ROBERTS: Dr. Laura, as you know by now, apologized for using the N-word 11 times on the air.

But sorry certainly didn't stop the backlash. On Tuesday, Dr. Laura said she won't renew her show when its contract is up at the end of the year. She said she wants to regain her First Amendment rights.

And now a new development: Sarah Palin has come to Dr. Laura's defense on Twitter. Here's what Palin tweeted last night -- quote -- "Dr. Laura, don't retreat. Reload. Steps aside because her First Amendment rights ceased to exist thanks to activists trying to silence, isn't American not fair."

In a second tweet Palin wrote, "Dr. Laura equals even more powerful and effective without shackles, so watch out constitutional obstructionists. And be thankful for her voice, America."

And today on her Facebook page, under the headline "Defending the Fight to Cast off Conservative Shackles," she wrote this about Dr. Laura: "I can understand how she can feel shackled by those who would parse a single word out of decades of on-air commentary. I understand what she meant when she declared that she was, quote, 'taking back my First Amendment rights' by turning to a new venue that would not allow others the ability to silence her by going after her stations, her sponsors and supporters."

Apparently Sarah Palin does not hold grudges, because here's what Dr. Laura blogged about Sarah Palin in September of 2008 after John McCain picked her as his running mate.

She wrote, quote, "I'm stunned. Couldn't the Republican Party find one competent female with adult children to run for vice president with McCain? I realize his advisors probably didn't want a mature woman, as the Democrats keep harping on his age. But, really, what kind of role model is a woman whose fifth child was recently born with a serious issue, Down Syndrome, and then goes back to the job of governor within days of the birth?"

Ouch. Maybe Palin missed that blog post.

Yesterday I spoke to Dr. Laura Schlessinger about why she thinks her First Amendment rights had been trampled.


ROBERTS: You said that you're leaving your radio show to regain your First Amendment rights. How did you lose them?

DR. LAURA SCHLESSINGER, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: It's the atmosphere in America today, where there is very little debate and just the attempt to silence voices that somebody disagrees with.

ROBERTS: But doesn't -- does this go beyond being disagreed with? You said something that was very offensive.

SCHLESSINGER: Well, yes. And I was trying to make a point about the hypersensitivity of our racial issues, and I made it the wrong way. I instantly realized I had blown it, took myself off the air. I had to finish the hour, which was 15 minutes, and took myself off the air for the last hour; wrote an apology, sent it to L.A. radio, gave it on my radio show.

And so I was about 48 hours in front of the news media, bringing it to anybody's attention.

ROBERTS: If you blew it -- I know that if I said the "N" word once, that would probably be the last thing that I ever said on CNN. You went on to say 11 times. You said that you blew it. You agree to that. Should you not suffer the consequences for blowing it?

SCHLESSINGER: But that was the point. The point was how -- how race relations are in our country today with the sensitivity, but I was certainly not calling anybody...

ROBERTS: We talked about race...


ROBERTS: We talk about race relations on this program, on our network all the time, and I don't think the "N" word has ever been said on full on CNN, at least not by any of our anchors.

SCHLESSINGER: I said I was wrong for doing it.

ROBERTS: Correct. But you seem to be -- and correct me if I'm wrong, Dr. Schlessinger -- saying that you've taken yourself off of your radio show because other people are not allowing you your First Amendment rights, even though you were wrong to have said what you said.

SCHLESSINGER: My decision was not based on this incident. My decision has been percolating for about a year, when I realized more and more that, like Nancy Pelosi saying we should investigate people who have a problem with the mosque being built at Ground Zero, investigating these people?

ROBERTS: That's not what she said. What she said was it would be good to have the same...

SCHLESSINGER: I'm just pointing out...

ROBERTS: ... it would be good to have the same -- she said it would be good to have the same transparency.

SCHLESSINGER: It would be good if I could finish a sentence.

ROBERTS: I'm sorry. But you're being inaccurate in what you're saying.


ROBERTS: I'm just trying to correct the record here.

SCHLESSINGER: Well, I apologize for being inaccurate.

ROBERTS: She said that -- she said that, in the same way that there should be transparency among the mosque funding, there should also be similar transparency behind the people who are opposed to the mosque.

SCHLESSINGER: My point is that, when I began in radio, there was discussion and debate. And now there are organizations, like Media Matters, who exist for the sole purpose of silencing voices, not debating. That is my whole point.

ROBERTS: And there are many people here at CNN, myself included, who have been the target of Media Matters. Also on the other side, the target of Newsbusters, talking about the conservative side of things. And every once in a while, they do actually give us props if they agree with something that we've done.

Is that just not the environment that we're all subject to out there? Do you feel that you're unfairly being singled out?

SCHLESSINGER: I think -- no, I never said I was unfairly being singled out. I said there's a growing atmosphere in our country. Media Matters doesn't have me as the focal point of their lives. They're there waiting to pounce to silence voices. I'm talking about silencing voices rather than debating. And I'm going to bring my voice and my ideas to venues where affiliates and sponsors can't be hurt by people who want to sponsor voices. That is my total point.

ROBERTS: Most of this controversy is over the "N" word, but there were some other things that you said during that broadcast that other people found even more troubling than the "N" word. Such as when you said, quote, "I really thought that once we had a black president, the attempt to demonize whites hating blacks would stop, but it seems to have grown and I don't get it." Some people thought that was really a racist point of view.

SCHLESSINGER: I don't. I think that was an observation.

ROBERTS: Another statement that you made you say, quote, "Without giving much thought, a lot of blacks voted for Obama simply because he was half black. It was a black thing."

Lincoln Mitchell of Columbia University took particular exception with that, suggesting that there was maybe five more points of the black vote that went to President Obama than went to candidate Gore back in 2000. So, how could you make a statement like that?

SCHLESSINGER: The point that this woman made is her racist statement that whites are afraid of the black man taking over America. I think that was a pretty racist statement. My response to that was that blacks make up about 12 percent of the population. So, he was voted in by whites.

ROBERTS: One other point, Dr. Schlessinger. The woman called you, asking a personal question, saying her husband, who's white, his friends were saying things that she felt uncomfortable with. Looking to you for advice. You really kind of came down on her. And I'm wondering why you responded to her like that.

SCHLESSINGER: Well, have you listened to the entire call?

ROBERTS: Yes. Yes, I have.

SCHLESSINGER: Oh, now I think, if her husband's friends were calling her a horrendous word, she would have led with that. But she didn't. She led with "They asked me a black point of view." So I'm even wondering, if you heard the call, why you would think I wasn't trying to help her?

ROBERTS: Well...

SCHLESSINGER: I really was trying to help her. Clearly, if that was her concern, that they simply asked her for a black point of view, then it would seem reasonable from a psychotherapist point of view that she is being hypersensitive. That it went askew is my fault. And I have taken total responsibility and have apologized for that.


ROBERTS: That was Dr. Laura's take. Now you're about to hear from the caller who reached out to her for advice. She identified herself as Jade when she called in to Dr. Laura's show. Her actual name is Nita Hanson. And she joins me now.

Nita, thanks so much for being with us. You heard what Dr. Laura said just a couple moments ago, where she said that you thought that you said something very racist when you said that "whites are afraid of the black man taking over America." Her words, "I think that was a pretty racist statement." What do you say? NITA HANSON, CALLER: I don't believe that was a racist statement at all. I didn't call anyone out of their names. You didn't hear me saying anything about a race. And that was honestly how I felt because of the experience I have had out there in the world.

But, that's how I honestly feel that -- but I went on the show to talk about a problem with that I was having in my relationship. Did I think this was going to end up happening? No. There's nothing wrong with freedom of speech, but when you're disrespectful and you call people out of their names, hurtful names that you know where they came from, you know what they mean and you know how hurtful they are. And you're going to say them, and you still try to justify what you said is not right.

ROBERTS: Do you think that her First Amendment rights are being denied?

HANSON: No. She could say what she wanted to say. The problem is, Dr. Laura got caught saying something she shouldn't have said, and she didn't expect the backlash.

ROBERTS: So what do you make of this...

HANSON: This woman thought she could say...

ROBERTS: So what do you make of this argument then, Nita? That she is saying, "I was trying to make a point, and there are all of these other organizations who simply exist to try to silence voices like mine, and that's why I'm taking myself off the air." What do you say to that response from her?

HANSON: She doesn't want to take responsibility for her actions, obviously. She said those words. So, why now is she trying to go back and say, "Well, everybody else is blowing it up. Everybody else is blowing it up"?

This woman has been around long enough to know this word hurts. And she continues to say it, not once, 11 times. Even after I questioned her and said, "Why do you think you can say that?" I told her I was offended. She didn't care if I was offended or not. She continued to use this word.

ROBERTS: Now, the way that she set this whole thing up was she said that you called up looking for advice, because your husband's -- your husband, who is white, his friends were asking you about a black point of view. I listened to the call over and over again. I didn't quite hear you explaining that.

So let's play the tape, and then we'll get you to talk about it. Let's listen to how the call started.


SCHLESSINGER: Can you give me an example of a racist comment? Sometimes people are hypersensitive. So tell me what's -- give me two good examples of racist comments. HANSON: OK. Last night, a good example. We had a neighbor come over, and this neighbor, every time he comes over it's always a black comment. It's, oh, "How do you black people like doing this and do black people like doing that?" And for a long time I would ignore it. But last night I got to the point where it...

SCHLESSINGER: I don't think that's racist.


ROBERTS: So you've been -- you've been having friends over, and it sounds to me -- and maybe you should probably explain it, because you can, obviously, explain it a lot better than I can. They were saying things that eventually were getting to you.

HANSON: Correct. The stereotypes. We have to stop stereotyping people because of the color of their skin, their sexual orientation. I wanted -- I made a call to find out how I could deal with this type of conversation that continued. Not just in my house, but it continues on television; it continues wherever I go. I wanted to know how to handle that. And that's why I was asking her advice.

ROBERTS: Obviously, they were saying things that were uncomfortable for you. And it's a very individual perspective as to what's uncomfortable versus what's offensive. Did it ever -- did it ever cross over into the realm that you would consider to be offensive?

HANSON: Yes. Very much so. Very much so. And that's why I called her for advice. Because I felt that it was offensive to me, and who is she to tell me whether or not something is offensive or not offensive? I mean, if you're not a minority, you have no idea what it's like to -- I mean, comments like that just hurt. And I think if you're not a minority, you have no idea what it's like to be discriminated against.

ROBERTS: So Nita, were you surprised? I mean, obviously, you call into Dr. Laura's show, you're going to get some push back. Were you surprised, though, with the degree that -- to which she pushed back against you?

HANSON: I was very surprised. I mean, you know, it's OK to have an opinion, and say -- but when you go on to say hurtful things, words that you know hurt people, and you -- somebody tells you, "OK, I'm offended," and you continue. This woman continued. And you could hear the anger in her voice. I couldn't get a word in edgewise. I was just stunned.

I had been a fan of Dr. Laura's for a long time. And this wasn't the first time I had called in for advice.

ROBERTS: You called in before...

HANSON: But I was completely...

ROBERTS: Were you actually on the air with her prior to this? HANSON: Well, it had been a while. I called her over a little something, but, yes, I had under the name of Jade.

ROBERTS: What was the first experience like?

HANSON: You know, she's always been a little, you know, rough around the edges, but I respect -- I respected her opinion. I don't always -- I didn't always agree with what she had to say, but I respected her enough to keep on listening to what she had to say.

ROBERTS: And now?

HANSON: Because she wasn't always -- I have no respect for this woman and just how she's trying to say it's somebody else's fault. It's the media's fault. It's this person's fault. It's that. This is the very same thing I am trying to get across now. It's time for us to start respecting one another and start getting along with one another.

ROBERTS: All right. Well, that's a lesson we can all take.

HANSON: Thank you very much, sir.

ROBERTS: Nita Hanson, thanks so much. Good to see you tonight.

HANSON: Thank you.

ROBERTS: Still ahead, "Crime & Punishment." An 80-year-old doctor who's allegedly been paid to write thousands of illegal prescriptions and the pharmacies that have allegedly been filling those prescriptions. Drew Griffin has the latest on an FBI investigation into a major Internet drug ring.

And later on, incredible video of a bull going berserk during a bull fight. He had enough. He wasn't going to take it any more. He catapulted himself out of the ring and into the stands. Many people were injured. We've got that story just ahead.


ROBERTS: In tonight's "Crime & Punishment" report, a major development in a story that we first reported to you two years ago. Back then, Drew Griffin of our special investigations unit traced illegal prescription drugs that he bought online, no questions asked, to a pharmacy in Utah. Remarkably, that pharmacy has stayed in business, but now the FBI has stepped in, and Utah officials are facing some pretty tough questions.

Here's Drew.


DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He hardly looks the part of an illegal drug dealer. He drives a run-down Mercedes- Benz, can barely walk, but according to the FBI, 80-year-old Dr. Robert Morrow could be a major player in a nationwide illegal Internet drug trade.

(on camera) Hi, Doctor. Drew Griffin with CNN. How are you?

(voice-over) A drug ring that, according to government documents, spans from Utah across the U.S. and overseas. A drug ring that has been operating for years.

(on camera) We want to find out, you know, it's been alleged you've been signing Internet prescriptions for people who haven't signed...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't want to talk about it. Get off my property. Get off my property.

GRIFFIN: Can you explain how that happens?

(voice-over) According to a government investigator, Dr. Morrow's signature appears on thousands and thousands of prescriptions filled this year alone. The government alleges he's paid to write them by the owner of two pharmacies. The Roots pharmacies in both Utah and suburban Chicago, and those pharmacies are at the heart of the illegal prescription drug investigation.

According to the FBI, Utah pharmacist Kyle Rootsaert is near the top of the operation. On August 5, FBI agents served two search warrants on those pharmacies owned by Rootsaert. One served here in suburban Chicago where agents seized boxes and boxes of records.

The federal government says illegal prescription drug abuse is staggering. Listen to this. It's now a bigger problem than heroin, cocaine and methamphetamine use combined.

JOHN HORTON, PRESIDENT, LEGITSCRIPT.COM: And these rogue Internet pharmacies that say, "All you have to do is fill out a form, you never have to see the doctor and we will approve your order immediately and send you addictive medications," are helping fuel that problem in a big way.

GRIFFIN: No charges have yet been filed. The FBI isn't commenting. The attorney for Roots pharmacy owner Kyle Rootsaert tells CNN he hasn't had a chance to talk to his client about the search warrant affidavits.

"Keeping Them Honest," we wanted to know why and how the operation had been allowed to operate for so long.

Two years ago, as part of a CNN investigation, I bought Prozac and the addictive muscle relaxer Soma online, no questions asked. And I tracked the drugs right back here to Roots Pharmacy in American Fork, Utah.

(on camera) I want to ask you about selling these drugs over the Internet without prescriptions.

(voice-over) We also confronted Kyle Rootsaert. He ran from our cameras and took off in this brown pickup truck. (on camera) Excuse me, Kyle, we'd like to talk to you about the Internet drug business you're running out of this pharmacy.

(voice-over) But it now appears Roots is on the run.

(on camera) This is where we actually confronted the owner of Roots Pharmacy. You can see just yesterday we're told the sign has been taken off this door.

(voice-over) The state of Utah filed a petition more than a year ago to revoke the pharmacy's license, but a hearing still hasn't been held. Even so, the pharmacy had been operating full blast, filling 2 to 300 prescriptions a day, according to the FBI. This little second- story pharmacy, a half hour south of the Salt Lake City, was a major distributor of dangerous prescriptions.

We wanted to ask a Utah official, the director of the agency that oversees pharmacies and prescriptions, why with Roots still pumping out illegal prescription meds, why the state is moving so slowly. He promised us an interview but then backed out.

(on camera) There may be a good reason the director backed out of the interview with CNN, because from Utah's own records, we found out the state of Utah has known all along what Roots Pharmacy is alleged to have been doing. In fact, they began getting complaints here in Utah since 2006.

(voice-over) Four states wanted to know why prescriptions from doctors not licensed in their state were being filled by Roots, which brings us back to Dr. Morrow. He also has a history with the state of Utah. He lost his license to dispense controlled drugs from 1999 to 2002, because he was illegally prescribing drugs. He paid a $1,000 fine. He was part of an operation, experts tell CNN, that was worth close to half a million dollars a month and an untold number of pills.


ROBERTS: Drew's live in Atlanta tonight.

So Drew, that particular pharmacy is no longer in business, but how easy is it for people to get some of those drugs online from other suppliers?

GRIFFIN: John, let me tell you how insidious this is. You place one order, like we did, online. You'll not only get the drugs but you'll suddenly get ads from dozens and dozens of other companies, Internet sites doing the same thing. You'll get discount coupons, reminders if it's time to fill orders that you never even sent for. Imagine what that's like if you're sitting down at your computer but you're addicted to these drugs.

There's hundreds and hundreds of them out there. It's almost impossible to stop. It's been left up to the states. The states can't handle it because it's Internet. It's international. And so this is the first real attempt that we've seen by the FBI to try to do something. GRIFFIN: Place one of those online orders. You get drugs and a few cookies, too.

GRIFFIN: That's right.

ROBERTS: Drew Griffin for us tonight. Drew, thanks so much. Great report.

Coming up next, Roger Clemens says it ain't so. Why the former Major Leaguer is facing big-league charges, including perjury now. His coming legal fight and what he has to say about it.

Plus, a raging bull takes aim at fans. The story behind this amazing video, just ahead.


ROBERTS: We're following several other important stories tonight. Joe Johns is back now with the "360 News Bulletin."

Hi, Joe.


Some late-breaking news out of Phoenix. Affiliate KPHO there reporting that the two fugitives John McCluskey and Casslyn Welch have been captured. They were caught, reportedly in Spring Mill, Arizona, halfway between Albuquerque and Phoenix. Now in the custody of federal officials, we're being told, according to the affiliate there in Arizona.

The estimated number of Pakistanis left homeless by massive flooding has doubled to 4 million. To help with the crisis, the U.S. announced today an additional 6 additional 6 million dollar in aid.

An indictment for Roger Clemens. The retired Major League pitching star is charged with perjury, obstruction of justice and making false statements in his testimony before a House committee in 2008. He told lawmakers he never used performance-enhancing drugs. Today he insists he was telling the truth and says that he can't wait for his day in court.

Your breakfast could be making you sick. Wright County Egg in Iowa has recalled 380 million eggs due to salmonella concerns. The CDC estimates hundreds of Americans have likely become ill from the tainted eggs.

And some disturbing video to show you. A raging bull is caught on tape in northern Spain. The bull jumped into the crowd at a bull fighting arena leading to mass hysteria. At least 30 people were injured, maybe more.

The crowd was there to watch a contest of human acrobatic skills in the bull ring, and they certainly got more of a demonstration than they expected there. Some pretty disturbing video.

I hear, obviously, the animal rights groups in Spain are trying to ban bull fighting there in Spain.

COOPER: But were they already batted in Catalonia?

ROBERTS: In Catalonia. That's correct. But this was, like, in a bar.

That was an agile bull, if ever I saw one.

Unbelievable. Apparently, tried to get in three times before he was successful.

ROBERTS: The way that he just hits that barricade. And it's like -- you watch in horror (ph). Yes. Pretty awful. Watch this: up, feet on it, wow, that's incredible.

JOHNS: So powerful. That's a 1,000-pound animal.

ROBERTS: I'm The shot at the end where the guy is just holding onto his tail after hurting so many people.

Joe, thanks so much. Great to see you tonight.

JOHNS: You bet.

ROBERTS: A lot more ahead at the top of the hour starting with the facts to debunk falsehoods about President Obama's faith. He's not a Muslim, look, and you'll hear it straight from one of his pastors.