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Widow Calls for Return of Husband`s Body

Aired October 7, 2010 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, a frantic search under way to find the body of David Hartley. His heartbroken wife Tiffany says she watched in horror as he was shot by pirates when they crossed into Mexican waters. She`s traumatized by the memory of having to leave her bloodied husband behind and is begging for help in finding him. I will talk to Tiffany live about her unbelievable nightmare now.

And jaw-dropping developments in the disappearance of little Kyron Horman. Dad Kaine and his estranged wife, Terri, march into court to do battle. Terri, the last person to see the little boy alive, just one reason Kaine filed for divorce and sought a restraining order. Now he wants to know where Terri got the cash to pay her lawyer. Is she hiding something?

Plus, growing outrage over a Duke University student`s personal sex study. Karen Owens allegedly e-mailed a 42-page Power Point presentation of sexual conquests to a few friends. The next thing she knows, it goes viral. She graphically evaluates 13 campus jocks, ranking their equipment and performance in the leaked sex list. Now she could get a book or even a movie deal. What? Is this a double standard?

ISSUES starts now.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, a grieving young widow who says she herself came this close to being shot and killed recalls her nightmare and pleads for the return of her husband`s body.

In just a moment, I`ll talk live one-on-one with Tiffany Hartley, the woman at the center of one of the most heart-wrenching and fast-breaking stories in the news tonight.

Twenty-nine-year-old Tiffany and her husband David were with on Jet Skis coming back from the Mexican side of the lake that spans the U.S./Mexico border. She says three boats with Mexican pirates attacked them and gunned down her husband. A witness who Tiffany turned to for help spoke out in shadow on ABC.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I noticed this Jet Ski in particular coming around the island. There was something wrong, actually, the way I saw -- saw her come about. It looked like something terribly wrong had happened. I mean, she was jittery, frantic. She was crying, sobbing.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tiffany`s vest was smeared with blood. That`s just coming in.

Adding to Tiffany`s grief, the search for David and his Jet Ski has turned up nothing. What does Tiffany think happened to her husband`s body? And does she think searchers are doing enough to find him?

In the weeks since Tiffany`s horrific encounter, she has done a lot of media interviews begging for help from officials in both countries. Tiffany Hartley joins me live.

Tiffany, first of all, I just want to say on behalf of everyone here at ISSUES, my heartfelt condolences. I know this is a very, very difficult time for you, and we here on ISSUES want to give you the opportunity to tell your story and to really set the record straight, say whatever you want to say to find justice for your husband. Can you take us back to the horrific incident and just tell us exactly what happened as you remember it, Tiffany?

TIFFANY HARTLEY, WIDOWED: Well, after we had taken the pictures at the church, we were on our way out when we saw a boat outside of this little brush area that was underwater.

When we were coming out, we saw them. They just waved at us, like we were -- you know, friendly, very friendly wave. We were on our way -- so we just continued, took a few more pictures, continued out. And we were, I don`t know, maybe halfway to the U.S. I can`t really give you a great idea of where exactly.

But we saw three boats coming towards us, and as soon as they started coming towards us, we just kind of started leaving. We passed them, and then they started chasing us. And once they started chasing us, they started shooting, and I had seen two shots next to me on my left. And that`s when I looked back to check on David, and that`s when I saw that he had been thrown off and into the water facedown.

And I, of course, no questions asked, not even thinking, just went right back to him to make sure and check and see, check on him to make sure he was OK. When I flipped him over, he was shot in the head.

And a boat came up to me and tried -- you know, I don`t know. They didn`t say anything to me, so I don`t know what they were trying to think or what they were doing, but they left. They just left me there. Thankfully, they didn`t shoot at me. They had a gun pointed at me.

And I tried getting David up on that -- on my Jet Ski, and then the three boats started heading back to me, and I just had to go. I just didn`t have enough time to get him up. And I just couldn`t do it, because he`s so much bigger than I am. That`s when I -- once I started...


HARTLEY: Go ahead.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, you go ahead.

HARTLEY: Once I started heading back -- once I started heading back towards the U.S. side, they had shot a few more times at me. I was on the side of my Jet Ski, between them and my Jet Ski. I was on the other side, so once I started to get going, I just went as fast as I could and didn`t look back until I couldn`t see them anymore.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, first of all, I want to compliment you on your courage to turn around under fire and go toward your husband, even though you were putting your life at risk. And I don`t know if anybody has really taken the opportunity to say, "Wow, what incredible courage you showed to do that."

HARTLEY: Thank you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And describe what was going through you emotionally as you approached your husband, seeing -- I mean, I can`t even imagine what your heart must have been pounding out of your chest.

HARTLEY: Yes. Yes, of course. I can`t even describe the pain and the fear that I had of when I turned him over. I didn`t know what to expect. You know, of course I was hoping maybe a shoulder or something, but I didn`t know what to expect. And I was sure not expecting that he would be shot in the head.

It was terrifying. It was absolutely terrifying. But there`s no question in my mind -- I didn`t even think about it. I just turned around to go get him. He`s my husband. He`s the love of my life, and he would do the same for me. And I was willing to take a bullet for him, just like he had did for me.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So going back to the moment, you courageously go back to your husband on the Jet Ski. He`s lying in the water off the Jet Ski but near his Jet Ski, bobbing up and down, face down. You turn him over, and then you see he`s been shot through the head?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And when you saw that -- and I don`t mean to be too graphic, and I apologize, but I`m just trying to really understand the exact situation -- he was completely unconscious at that time? In other words, that`s one of the reasons why you feel he is deceased right now, and he wasn`t taken away injured?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Can you elaborate a little bit on that?

HARTLEY: When I turned him over and I saw the shot in his head, and I was obviously screaming and yelling at him and trying to him to get him to wake up, and he just wasn`t waking up. And I truly believe that, you know, maybe he wasn`t gone completely at that moment, but he couldn`t hear me as far as -- you know, obviously, I don`t know if he could or not.

But screaming at him, just trying to get him to wake up, and I didn`t know what to do. I just kept telling him, "I don`t know what to do. I don`t know what to do. I don`t know. I don`t know."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, at that moment, how long between that moment and when you were then confronted by the pirates who pointed a gun at you?

HARTLEY: Not very long. I couldn`t give you a time frame but probably a minute or so.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So were you just sort of, like, languishing in that area, or when you saw that, "Wow, I can`t do anything for my husband" -- and listen, we`ve just gotten word that they now said you had blood on your vest, which I think is a very good piece of evidence for those who may doubt -- and we`ll get to that in a second. But I certainly think your story is completely believable, 100 percent.

But you were kind of there in the area and trying to figure out what to do. And then were you already leaving when they approached you with the gun, or were you still with your husband`s body?

HARTLEY: I was with my husband`s body. I had him in one hand, and I had the Jet Ski in the other. And that`s when I was telling them not to shoot, not to shoot. So I had both my Jet Ski and David with me at that time.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Can you describe at all these attackers? In other words, anything about their boats that were distinctive? There were three boats. How many people were on each boat? Because this might actually help the Mexican authorities track these people down. It`s a 25-mile by 10-mile lake. They can`t have gotten that far. So anything?

HARTLEY: Honestly, I don`t even remember what they looked like. All I can say is possibly they were in their mid- to late 20s, but I really don`t know, because I was looking more focused on the gun and if it was going to shoot me or not. And that`s where my focus was.

I do know that there was two white boats and a dark, like a black or a dark green boat. But that was because I had seen them before they started shooting at us.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, you say that you`ve been taking photos at old Guerrero, the town with the half-submerged church.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: What happened to those photos? Did you lose your camera in the water?

HARTLEY: David had the camera on the Jet Ski in one of the little cubbies. Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So in other words, the camera...

HARTLEY: So I don`t have that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... the camera went with -- with the water. Hang on. I think your story is so compelling. Thank you for having the courage to recount it for us tonight here on ISSUE. We have more questions for you on the other side of the break. So much to talk about. Please stay right where you are. We`re going to be back.

Also, we`re going to talk about some escalating drama in the Kyron Horman case. Today a courtroom showdown between dad Kaine and his estranged wife, Terri. I`m going to tell you the drama that occurred there.

And more with Tiffany Hartley and her courageous run-in. She stood up to Mexican pirates and lived to talk about it. Unfortunately, her husband did not, and now there is a search for his body. More with Tiffany in a moment.


HARTLEY: No, not at all. I loved him very much, and I went back for him to help him and I did what I could.




GOV. RICK PERRY (R), TEXAS: When they call off the search the way they did this morning and give as the reason because the drug cartels are in control of that part of the state, something`s not right. But we do not need to let our border continue to deteriorate from the standpoint of having drug cartels telling us whether or not we can go in and bring back the body of an American citizen who`s been killed.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Drama in a dangerous lake. Mexican authorities had called off the search for David Hartley yesterday. Now they say they have resumed looking. We are here with Tiffany Hartley, the woman who tried to save her husband`s life, turning courageously back to face gunmen as she tried to resuscitate her husband who had been shot in the head. And now his body is missing, along with the Jet Ski.

Tiffany, you and your in-laws have pleaded on camera for help from President Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. What is happening on the diplomatic front?

HARTLEY: As far as I know, they had a press conference with some of the state officials and stuff, and I believe Rick Perry, Governor Rick Perry, was there also and Zapata. Other than that, I don`t know what else is going on with the Mexico side. I do believe that they are out there searching today, but we haven`t had any word yet.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I had heard yesterday that they tried to search, and they had to cut off the search. Now, initially, we heard that it was because they were scared of the drug cartels, the government itself was scared off by the drug cartels. Then we heard something about weather.

But to me that`s the biggest evidence that, obviously, there is a problem out there, if the Mexican government itself has a problem searching these waters. I would assume you would agree, Tiffany.

HARTLEY: I do. I do agree. The cartels are threatening the police and anybody who wants to come in there to search, due to, you know, they don`t want them there. So, yes, they are holding it up. They are holding the search up. We do believe, if they would just go ahead and give us David`s body back, and we would be done. I mean, we would -- it would be concluded, and we could go on. We can go on with our lives, and they could go on with their lives.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: If you had one thing to say to the Mexican authorities, even the president of Mexico, what would you say tonight?

HARTLEY: I would just plead that you bring in the navy, the military, anybody who has the power to come in and have, you know, have more than what the cartel can do, and let`s just get his body back. Let`s just find him, because all we want is just him back, so we can go on with our lives and get this border secured.

But for the Mexican side, we really need them to start stepping up and get the navy and the military there so they are covered with any battle that might happen.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tiffany, let -- let me ask you this. Your extended family has been quoted as saying that the reason why they didn`t find the body of your husband is that you believe they took the body, the cartel. The pirates took the body along with the Jet Ski.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So that is probably why the Mexican government hasn`t been able to find the body on that side of the water.

HARTLEY: Yes. I don`t believe he`s in the water. That`s why they need to be on land. They need to be searching all the brush and the area around that area. And maybe they just took him up on the side and took him in a little while and left him. I don`t know.

But they need to be on foot and in water. But I do believe that he is probably on land. But of course, that`s just what I think. But I don`t know for sure.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tell us about David, your husband. I understand that you were high-school sweethearts. Tell us about this person you loved so much.

HARTLEY: We were high-school sweethearts. We -- for a while we dated on and off before we got really serious. And then once we got serious we had dated for several years before we got engaged. And then, of course, we`ve been married for eight years.

He`s a wonderful man. I wish everybody was able to meet him. I think they are being able to through our stories and through pictures. He`s a man who loved life. He loved hunting, fishing, anything to do with outdoors and activity. He just loved life. And he loved me, and I know that in my heart.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How are you enduring all of this, especially the skepticism? I understand that faith is very important to you. Tell us about that.

HARTLEY: It`s hard being judged and thought of that I might have done something to him, but I know -- like I said, I know what I know. And as long as I -- you know, I know the truth, God knows the truth, and other than that, it almost doesn`t really matter to me, because I know what happened that day.

And I have a great support system, and I have to go and thank everybody who has been behind me since day one, since one hour after. They have been behind me and standing behind me. People I don`t even know. I just want to thank you all so much for all of your support. I could not be here and doing this without them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tiffany, hang in there. We`re going to stay with your story. You`ve gone through two torments, one the horror of what happened and then the torment of being judged, as you say. We want to set the record straight.

Stay right there. We`ll have more.



JENNY MISHLER, FRIEND OF HARTLEYS: Shame on you. Shame on you. This woman just lost her husband.


MISHLER: I know this couple personally. That is sickening. I don`t know how people who accuse her of this are sleeping at night. This is disgusting.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That was Jenny Mishler, a very good friend of Tiffany Hartley, who spoke out here last night on ISSUES, saying "shame on you" to those who would doubt Tiffany`s story.

You know, Tiffany, it was the Mexican government who initially raised questions about your story. They have since backtracked on that, and now they`re saying they`re going to do everything they can to find the body, and they have also lashed out at these attackers.

Does that offer any comfort to you, that the Mexican government is now saying they believe you?

HARTLEY: Yes. Yes, it makes me feel a lot better knowing that they do believe me. They know what goes on over there. And after talking to a couple of guys over there, they just -- they encouraged us that they are going to do what they`re supposed to do in finding David. And we are encouraged about that. We have hope.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you think that they spared you because you`re a woman? You were staring down the barrel of that gun. Do you get any sense that maybe they hesitated because you`re a woman?

HARTLEY: No. I believe that they didn`t know what to do with me, and they had to go check with the other boats to see what -- what the next step was. I don`t think, really, they had any hesitation whatsoever if me being a woman, or if I was a man, you know, I think it doesn`t really matter. I know God spared my life. I mean, He saved me, and He stopped them from shooting me at that moment.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, you -- as they`re pointing the gun at you, you turn around and just leave? In other words, they`re pointing the gun at you and instead of freezing you just turn your Jet Ski around and leave?

HARTLEY: No. They had the gun towards me, and I was telling them not to shoot, not to shoot. And they talked amongst each other. I don`t know what they were with saying. I couldn`t hear them. And they left. They took their boat and headed back to the other -- to the other two boats. And that`s when I got on my Jet Ski, tried to pull David up, because that was the only opportunity that I had when they weren`t there with me.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And then they came after you again? That`s -- because you said at one point you were sprayed with gunfire.

HARTLEY: They came back towards me. And that`s when I -- I just knew I had to get out of there. I got back on my ski. I had to leave David behind, and I had to pass them in order to get to the United States.

And, yes, they had shot a couple of fires at me, and they chased me. And as far as I know, they came into the U.S. side, but I don`t know for sure. I didn`t look, and I wasn`t paying attention, because I just wanted to get out of there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did you know how dangerous and treacherous this lake was when you decided to go and do this sightseeing?

HARTLEY: We didn`t realize it was this dangerous. Nor did we realize that that area was that dangerous. We had heard, you know, a couple pirate stories on that lake, but we didn`t, you know, realize or hear of anything in the last few months. So we figured everything had kind of calmed down, and everything was kind of safe now.

And when we went to that area, we didn`t realize how bad it was. And that`s why, if anybody is going to go to that lake or go across the border into Mexico, they need to go and talk to their local -- the local people and ask them, "What is it like? What`s going on? What haven`t we heard?"

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tiffany, we have to leave it right there. Thank you for sharing your story. Our hearts go out to you. And...



FARRAH FAZAL, KRGV-TV: It`s a very dangerous area because the Zetas one of the main cartels here, have set up headquarters at old Guerrero. Their drugs are there, their guns are there. Their entire operation is there, and they`re not about to let anybody get very close to that.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Danger on Falcon Lake, a couple goes sightseeing trying to check out an old church on the Mexican side of Falcon Lake that`s half submerged, it`s an historic site. This man, says his wife, is gunned down by Mexican pirates. She tries to save his life but he`s shot in the head. She has to flee after they turn the gun on her.

And we just spoke to Tiffany Hartley at length tonight here on ISSUES. I want to go out to Will Ripley, who`s a reporter with KRGV. He`s been tracking this case from the start. Will, what is the very latest?

WILL RIPLEY, REPORTER, KRGV-TV: Well, the latest tonight is the sheriff actually just announcing that there is some more evidence to corroborate with the story that Tiffany Hartley is telling. You asked me yesterday about her jet ski, whether it had any bullet holes on it. There were no bullet holes on the jet ski but it turns out there was actually some blood on her life jacket, which would match with the story of pulling her husband`s body, trying to pull it out of the water.

Also, there were witnesses that saw the couple together getting on their jet skis that day.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s important.

And I have said from the start I believe this young woman because this area is known for being dangerous. There have been four incidents in the last several months.

I want to go out to Dr. Richard Drake who has been very patiently listening to all of this tonight; Doctor, thank you for joining us you via Skype. I understand that you had a similar situation and you were chased by pirates on Falcon Lake, sir.

DR. RICHARD DRAKE, CHASED BY PIRATES ON FALCON LAKE: Yes. Back in May I was at a fishing tournament on Falcon Lake and I was going between the international boundary markers. They`re big concrete poles in the lake. When a boat came out from the brush and just kind of came up behind me and they started waving their machine guns yelling at me to pull over.

And, you know, had they wanted to shoot me, I`m sure they could have, but I just kind of gave it some gas and was able to pull away from them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you find this woman`s story, I would assume, completely believable.

DRAKE: I think there`s still a few questions that need to be answered, but --



DRAKE: I feel sorry for her and the fact that the area where she was is where all of the robberies had occurred, that`s what happened to me, where I got jumped. It certainly gives her story credence.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Steven in Texas, your question or thought.

STEVEN, TEXAS (via telephone): Yes. I just want to say that, you know, on a daily basis, we hear about the border violence and to think what people who really don`t know what is happening down here, doubting this woman`s story is ridiculous. There has been no direct violence against women so far, which may be why they didn`t kill her when they got a chance. I believe this woman is telling the truth.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Stacey Honowitz, Florida prosecutor, as far as I could tell, I was thinking about this story today, I think one of the reasons skepticism may have come up is just the actual use of the word pirate. I mean it`s a word -- what`s the first thing you think of when you hear pirate, you think of "Pirates of the Caribbean", a movie, a cartoon. People -- a lot of people believe that pirates no longer still exist, they went out with the tall ships.

But the fact is that pirates are alive and well; they`ve had a big problem with pirates in Somalia this past spring and they`ve had problems with pirates in many other parts of the world. And those pirates are simply criminals on the water. Correct, Stacey?

STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Yes, exactly. It really is synonymous with a criminal on the water. We have heard about it in the news in the last couple of years, that pirates have been overtaking just people out on the seas in the general public.

I think it`s very difficult to sit here and say that she`s lying. We don`t know all the facts of the investigation, and the bottom line is I commend her for her composure on your show tonight and for the questions that you did ask her. I think it was important for all of those naysayers for her to get her story out.

And you asked on your show yesterday, did anybody see her and her husband go to the lake on their jet skis? And tonight of course you have that answer from the reporter, that, in fact, witnesses did see them go to the lake. So that does answer, you know, some of the questions that were out there.

Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist, you heard this woman speak. I think she`s a courageous woman, very believable. Your thoughts?

ROBI LUDWIG: PSYCHOTHERAPIST: She strikes me as being honest. The way to really tell if somebody is telling the truth versus a lie, if they repeat the story in the exact same way, then it tends to have a component of being a lie, because lies need to be memorized in a certain way. Where if someone is telling the truth, they can answer the questions in a lot of different ways and really they`re sharing the same information.

But I think one of the reasons we have doubt is, number one, we have heard stories recently in the news that have not been credible and turned out to be untrue. And also this story is so outrageous. We don`t tend to hear stories like this that people tend to say, wow, can this really be happening?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I just want to say I talked to her, I have no proof one way or the other, but I believe her. I think she`s telling the truth.

We`re going to switch gears now to another huge story we`ve been following, turning to stunning twists in the disappearance of little Kyron Horman. Divorce court drama between the missing child`s dad and his stepmom, Kaine and Terry Horman come face-to-face in a courtroom for the first time since Kaine filed for divorce. Terri Horman caught in a swirl of suspicion over little Kyron`s disappearance got what she wanted in court today, namely a delay.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Terri, do you have any information on the disappearance of Kyron Horman?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Today the judge put the divorce case on hold until January because he says Terri faces, quote, "substantial legal risk if it proceeds because of the investigation into the disappearance of Kyron Horman.

Terri, the last person to see the 8-year-old at his school the day he vanished, she reportedly took this picture. She has not been named a suspect. Terri is not fighting the divorce per se, but she doesn`t want to settle the custody of their young daughter, the daughter that she had with Kaine for a couple of years. Kaine wants everything settled right now.

Straight out to my fantastic expert panel, we begin with Bruce McCain, former captain with the very sheriff`s office investigating Kyron`s disappearance. Bruce, you were inside the courtroom today. What is the very latest?

BRUCE MCCAIN, FORMER CAPTAIN, MULTNOMAH COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, Jane, as you mentioned, Terri Horman`s lawyers actually did a very, very good job of convincing the court that this case should be abated, which means simply set aside for up to two years. The court went out only three months.

But they had two real arguments that they`re focusing on. The first was it has to do with discovery. You know how the discover process works. They`re saying that, look, the civil divorce case is nothing but a back door criminal investigation that`s going to violate Terri Horman`s Fifth Amendment rights. Plus, they also said that this million-dollar public investigation has been funneling information to Kaine, but they cannot get the same information under a discovery subpoena.

So they said, look, this is not fair. This is not fair to Terri, it`s not fair to our case. We can`t give up --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: But what does that have to do with the divorce? Why should she be afraid of a divorce? What does that have to do with the boy`s disappearance? I don`t get it.

MCCAIN: Because the civil divorce lawyer wants to depose Terri Horman and ask her questions about Kyron`s disappearance. They can`t do that in the criminal investigation as you know. So the concern was they want to use the civil discovery process and feed that information back to the investigators.

The top D.A. Jane, that`s leading the Kyron investigation was in that courtroom today taking notes. We`ve always said this was a surrogate investigation and the court actually agreed with that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Jeff Brown, if she has nothing to hide, why not -- I don`t understand why she would not answer any question if she has nothing to hide.

JEFF BROWN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, because she`s being looked at as a suspect. The very fact that you`re asking the question in this way indicates that some people, like yourself, think that she might be involved in this. So why should she go under the gun and answer these questions? What happens if she answers a question the wrong way and people say, aha, you`re guilty because of that?

That`s the reason why we have these protections in place. Let`s let the criminal justice system work it out and let`s not use the civil discovery process to get around the federal protections and the constitutional protections that they get.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, I understand that Terri Horman hasn`t seen her daughter since June 28th when Kaine decided to move out and took their daughter with him.

Terri is under a no-contact order so that means she cannot see her daughter, who is now 22 months old. I want to bring that to my big issue. I mean, contact, yes or no? We have to weigh three different factors here.

Obviously Kaine doesn`t want this woman who he`s made it very clear he believes has something to do with Kyron`s disappearance to have any contact with the daughter he had with her. But, by the same token, there`s a little girl who`s 22 months old, doesn`t know any better, she just probably wants to see her mommy. And then you have the rights of Terri Horman, Stacey Honowitz, who has not been charged with any crime.

HONOWITZ: Jane, you know, the court has to look at all those factors and basically what they`re looking at is what is in the best interest of this child. Certainly if she`s involved in some kind of criminal activity with the boy, the father has every right in the world to say, I don`t want her to have activity or any kind of contact with the daughter. So the court waived these factors when it made its decision.

The bottom line is, you could always go into court at some later date and say, hey circumstances might have changed, here`s why we think now that the no-contact order should be lifted. So certainly this is not something that`s permanent. This is something that`s always modifiable. And I`m sure at some point down the road, they will go in and try to modify that contact order.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, "The Oregonian" is reporting, Terri`s criminal defense attorney also wants to dispose -- depose rather, the landscaper who investigators claim was approached by Terri Horman to carry out a murder for hire plot against Kaine. What do you think about that Captain McCain?

MCCAIN: Well, again Jane that gets back to the discovery frustration for her lawyers. They not only want to depose him, they want to depose the chief lead investigator. They have asked for the 911 tapes on the botched sting attempt that they won`t give to the media. And this is an attempt again to show the court, that look, we`re trying to conduct discovery to represent our clients and the investigators are saying, no, you can`t have any information.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Bruce, I want to jump in and ask you really quick, what did Terri look like today? Just yes, you know, quick, five seconds. Calm?

BRUCE MCCAIN: Well, actually, she was well -- well dressed, calm, cold, composed, well dressed in a blue dress. She looked very professional. Kaine finally found a shirt and tie to wear to replace the t-shirt he`s been going to court in.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: T-shirt that has his son`s name on it. Thank you, panel.

Up next, oh you won`t believe it. You won`t.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight -- a very sexy kiss and tell list goes viral, and it`s causing a scandal on the Duke campus. A female student makes it her mission to sleep with as many hot Duke athletes as she can, and then she rates them on everything from sexual prowess to penis size.

Karen Owen, shown here on the site, documented all of her -- extracurricular activities presenting to her friends in painstaking detail, I mean graphic, a well-organized, 42-page PowerPoint presentation complete with the names and a lot of shirtless photos of more than a dozen guys that she bedded.

Karen describes each of her hook-ups, judging the men on their size and performance, quote, "He knew how to use his hardware" end quote -- she writes about one guy. Some get -- less than favorable reviews. Quote, "Have you ever opened up a beautifully wrapped present on Christmas morning with the anticipation of seeing your dream gift and feel your smile plummet to the floor" end quote, she writes about one unlucky Romeo.

Karen called it her sex thesis and titled the presentation "Excelling in the Realm of Horizontal Academics". She even had bar graphics. And this all started as a joke between friends. But tonight it`s all over the Internet.

I`ve got to say I almost didn`t make it down here because I was reading this 42-page PowerPoint presentation. It`s compelling reading, ok? I mean, it`s being touted as the f---list, if you know what I mean.

And her paramours are not happy, to put it mildly, about their photos and their stats being posted on the net. One guy was even supposed to get married this weekend. I want to hear your take on this, 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1- 877-586-7297.

Straight out to my fantastic, expert, feisty panel, and I`ve got to begin with the one and only Steve Santagati of and the author of the "Manual". I know you have so much to say about this 42- page PowerPoint presentation, so take it away, Steve.

STEVE SANTAGATI, BADBOSYFINISHFIRST.COM: Well, Jane, I think the words to look at here are spreadsheet and viral -- viral, so to speak. If -- and the irony here is that if I did this or any guy did this, we would never get any television time and it would be pigs, dogs, it would be publicly stoned.

But a woman does this, it`s just another example of misogyny, yes, not misogynist -- misogyny. And this girl is an idiot. No guy is going to want to sleep with her unless he`s going to try to rank up there higher than these other guys. I just don`t think she should get a book deal. I don`t think there`s enough content there. She needs to sleep with another hundred.

And the movie deal --


SANTAGATI: Yes. She`s an idiot.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me just say this. Steve, I`ve got to say this.


SANTAGATI: She`s an idiot.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m not defending her. I mean, honestly, it was compelling reading and I`m not kidding you. I had to pull away to get down to the studio.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: But I do feel that there are, you know, two double standards here. And you`re talking about one double standard, but what about the double standard that she says in her own defense, Stephanie Miller, this has been done for eons by guys. Frat guys are always making lists and ranking women and putting notches on their belts and their bedposts. And she is just basically evening the score.

SANTAGATI: Right. And I agree with you, Jane that these guys got what was coming to them. However, eons ago there wasn`t the Internet. There wasn`t Facebook. And there wasn`t all this explosion of defamation of character. I`m happy for the guy that ranked number one. He`s going to be set for life. But the other guys she may have a lawsuit on her hands I think.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: You can`t have it both ways, Steve. Stephanie Miller weigh in on this.

SANTAGATI: I can and I do.

STEPHANIE MILLER, HOST, "THE STEPHANIE MILLER SHOW": I -- you know what, I`m with you Jane, I had to read it 20 to 30 times before the show to realize how really truly disgusted I was by the whole thing. But I -- and that being said, seriously.


MILLER: -- I agree with what your first guest said.

SANTAGATI: Wait a minute.

MILLER: I think you know, if you`re going to be a feminist, I think you`ve got to agree with him that it`s really true there is a double standard. And I`m a privacy advocate. I think that this ties in a little bit with the -- with the tragedy at Rutgers. I think -- I don`t know whether it`s social media or reality TV, but the people think you know, everybody has a right to know everything about you. And I don`t agree with it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`m going to go to my big issue tonight. And that -- that is double standard. You know, you talk about if a guy did this, oh, my gosh, you know, they`d be stoned. But guess what?

There is a guy that is -- named Tucker Max, and he is the "New York Times" best-selling author of "I Hope they Serve Beer in Hell." All right?

I hope they serve beer in hell. And in that incredibly popular best- selling book, which has been made into a movie, he talks about his thousands of sexual adventures while attending Duke Law School. Ok?

So there he is doing the exact same thing, Jeff Brown, and --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- and he got a bestseller. They`re making a movie. He doesn`t seem to be wearing a scarlet letter.

BROWN: No. In fact, they did a movie on this and he`s portrayed as a hero and everybody is applauding him and laughing at it. You know, where is there this understanding that if you decide to do a hook-up there`s some code that you can`t talk about it or -- or somebody can`t mention it?

And you know what? Guys do it all the time. And I`m a guy and I`ll tell you right now guys have been doing this for history. She did it. BROWN: It`s small potatoes compared to what men have been doing. You know what? This is a buyer beware type of situation. Be careful who you hook up with because, you know what, this can happen.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I hear rumbling from the deep voice of Steve Santagati.

SANTAGATI: First of all, ladies are still supposed to act demure, number one.


BROWN: Come on.

SANTAGATI: Number two --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re going to get my gavel.

SANTAGATI: Hold on. Number two, any guy that goes --


SANTAGATI: Any guy that`s so insecure that he has to go out and brag about his conquests is not going to be getting any in the near future because girls don`t like that.

And number two, he`s not a bad boy, he`s --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, on the other side more debate.



IRIN CARMON, REPORTER, JEZEBEL.COM: She`s mortified. Let me just say that I think what we should be concerned with here is not that Karen had sex with guys or that she got drunk or that she wrote about it. We`re mostly concerned with the fact that people of my generation still don`t understand that if you e-mail something to three friends, it`s not going to stay with three friends.

That`s exactly what Karen was mortified about. She never intended this to be for public consumption.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Guess what, it is.

Tonight a kiss-and-tell goes viral. Duke student, Karen Owen created a 42-page PowerPoint presentation about her college sexual conquests. She included photos of the guys she slept with and rated their sexual prowess and equipment on a scale of 1 to 10.

Tonight posted the guys` photos and some of these guys are furious. And we are blurring the faces of these men for obviously their privacy, but a lot of people on the Internet are seeing this. Melinda, West Virginia, your question or thought, ma`am?

MELINDA, WEST VIRGINIA (via telephone): Hi I have a comment, Jane. I find it somewhat empowering that she does this because men, guys in colleges have been doing this for years, rating women by stars on their notebooks. And, you know, the only difference it seems to me, hers is more detailed and called a thesis.


MELINDA: It was always shared between men amongst their friends but - -

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I have to say, the caller makes a good point. Stephanie Miller, it`s clever -- it`s cleverly written. If it was just -- I`m not applauding it, I think it`s a bad idea. I think that sex is between two people and it should be about intimacy and it should be a communication that is not a performance, I think it`s messed up psychologically.

But it is entertaining to read, Stephanie.

STEPHANIE MILLER, HOST, "STEPHANIE MILLER SHOW": It would be better if it were a pop-up book Jane. But I agree with you, that`s why they call it a private life. It`s supposed to be private. I just feel like we`re in this age of over-sharing, you know, it`s like Twitter. I don`t care what you had for breakfast or your bowel habits.

I disagree with your other guests about, be careful who you sleep with. You should have a reasonable expectation that your penis size is going to be discussed on the Internet if you sleep with someone? I mean what have we come to?

BROWN: Pick your partner better. Pick your partner. Don`t be with someone who`s going to talk about it.


MILLER: How do you know someone`s going to make a PowerPoint presentation about your penis?


BROWN: Because you date them, you spend some time getting to know who they are as a person, get to know their character. That`s why maybe the hook-up isn`t a good idea.

SANTAGATI: Oh, come on. That`s --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I mean is this karma kickback? From the ones I read -- I can`t characterize it -- but the ones I read these were just casual hook-ups after a night of drinking, and this was the ultimate casual sex, Steve. Maybe it`s karma kickback.

SANTAGATI: Yes, but no. You`re making a big mistake here. You`re saying that guys have only been doing this for years. Women do it for years. The difference is they do it among themselves because we`re studs if we sleep with a lot of girls. You`re tramps if you sleep with a lot of guys. All my friends are women.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But that`s your old thinking. That`s your old thinking. I think that that has changed. And that`s why this woman instead of being ashamed is bragging about it.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m not applauding it, again, but I don`t think that old Madonna-whore thing is still in operation.

SANTAGATI: It only changed on the surface.

MILLER: It`s not even a gender thing. Just because we have high tech tools.


SANTAGATI: It`s a class thing. Right.


SANTAGATI: She`s right. It`s a class thing. People being morons, just do what you`re going to do, keep your mouths shut about it, and if you want to do a PowerPoint presentation, I`m available.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`m going to say that I really don`t think women`s lib is imitating the worst habits of the opposite sex.

We`re going to leave it at that. Thank you, fabulous panel. I have to go finish off that PowerPoint presentation.