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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Diplomat Richard Holbrooke Dies; Tax Cut Risks vs. Rewards; Madoff Suicide; Honeymoon Murder?; Palin's Mission to Haiti
Aired December 13, 2010 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight breaking news: the death of America's top diplomatic trouble shooter. The remarkable career of Richard Holbrooke; we'll talk to those who knew him well and to 360 MD Sanjay Gupta about what you should know about the killer that cut him down and can strike just about anyone often without warning.
Also tonight "Keeping Them Honest" on the tax deal; as lawmakers vote on the deal President Obama worked out with Republican leaders, how do the President's statements stand up to his campaign promises on taxes for the wealthy? We'll also look at how John McCain's thoughts on tax cuts for the wealthy seem to have evolved.
And later, a picture perfect honeymoon. A husband and wife go scuba diving in Australia but something terrible happened under water and only the husband returned alive. He served jail time in Australia for manslaughter. He's now back home in Alabama and on trial for murder. Did he do it? You can judge the evidence for yourself in tonight's "Crime and Punishment" report.
We begin though, as always with breaking news. The death of Richard Holbrooke: America's special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, architect of the Dayton Peace Agreement that ended the Bosnia war and all-around trouble shooter. President Obama tonight, calling him one of the giants of American foreign policy.
Ambassador Holbrooke became ill on Friday in Secretary of State Clinton's office, died today at nearby George Washington University Hospital of a tear in a major artery leading from his heart; the surgery to fix it not enough to save him. He was 69 years old and the shock waves from his passing are traveling around the world as we speak.
Joining us now 360 MD Sanjay Gupta, so are David Gergen and Paul Begala who worked with him and CNN's Jill Dougherty who covered his achievements and exploits sometimes colorful, sometimes contentious and never dull.
Paul, let's start with you. You knew Richard Holbrooke. You worked with him during the Clinton administration. What's his legacy?
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, what a towering figure, Anderson. As you said, he -- he began his career in Vietnam where he worked then to try to bring peace to that war and to end his life working to bring peace to Afghanistan. And for -- for the 40 years in between he seemed to be in the middle of every hot spot; a really towering figure. It's kind of hard if you didn't know him to imagine.
He was drawn into a business diplomacy that usually attracts bright but sort of shy and retiring type of people and Dick was a larger than life figure in every sense of the world. I have said, I still haven't really -- I think fully digested the shock of thinking about an American foreign policy without Richard Holbrooke.
COOPER: David, I know he was a friend of yours and not just a personal -- a professional loss obviously but personal loss for you. He faced down Slobodan Milosevic and -- and really brought peace the -- the Dayton Peace Accords. What made him a good negotiator?
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: He was very tough. President Obama said today at the State Department he was one tough son of a gun. And that's exactly right. He was a man that if you were president and you had to face somebody who was a criminal or one of the really bad guys out there --
GERGEN: -- you'd call for Dick Holbrooke. That was especially true of the Clintons. Both Hillary and Bill Clinton loved Dick Holbrooke. Both of them groomed him to be Secretary of State. And it was -- some people thought he should have won -- he should have won the Nobel Peace Prize for his -- with his work in Bosnia ending that with the Dayton Peace Accords. Other people thought he should have been Secretary of State.
He never got there but he was still willing to go out and do these really messy jobs. And there's just a sad --
COOPER: Thankless jobs.
GERGEN: A thankless job. Afghanistan, Pakistan, you know, you were just saying before we went on the air that there was something in "The Washington Post" about his talking to his surgeon just before -- his last words in effect -- he's talking to a Pakistani surgeon and saying you've got to end this war in Afghanistan.
And that was him. And he was -- I -- I've never seen but he -- who -- who'd lived for the -- to be a diplomat. Everything else was -- everything else in life was waiting.
GERGEN: He liked to be up on that wire. Really doing things for the American --
COOPER: Sanjay, I mean, this all happened suddenly. I mean, he had a problem I guess in the past but he -- I guess he was in a meeting with Secretary Clinton. And -- and what exactly went wrong? He -- a tear in the aorta, is that right? DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. We -- you know, I heard that he stood up. He was able to walk out of the office. But -- what we now know -- and you know somebody that has chest pain like that, Anderson, you know -- you're going to think about the heart potentially being a problem here.
This is different. This is not a problem with the heart specifically. There's a major blood vessel that carries the blood away from the heart. It's called the aorta. As you might imagine blood is flowing very fast, high pressure through that aorta. And sometimes you can get a tear in one of the inner layers of the aorta and -- and then blood sort of starts seeping into the wall of the aorta.
COOPER: Why does it tear?
GUPTA: Well, you know, it's unclear for sure. I mean, there's a couple of main risk factors, one is hypertension, high blood pressure. And -- and that high blood pressure over time can sort of erode the -- the inner layer of -- of the aorta. Sometimes people may have a genetic predisposition because the tissue is not as strong as well in that area but usually that hypertension is -- is -- is sort of the main culprit.
COOPER: Is this something that can be caught with a -- you know, an ultrasound or something like that?
GUPTA: It's a great question. And typically if someone has a -- a true aortic dissection the first time that they have any problem unfortunately is something like this when it actually -- you get the dissection and you get the tear. And they may not have ever had any problem with this in the past.
If they have what's known as an aneurysm, that's when the aorta starts to get big because those walls are weak and the aneurysm just starts to get a little bit boggy. You can see that sometimes on a chest x- ray or a CT scan but -- but typically this is something that's just undetected Anderson until something tragic like this happens.
COOPER: Jill, he was -- a close friend, a confidant to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. How -- how, I mean, what does this mean moving forward in terms of the war in Afghanistan and in terms of diplomacy with Pakistan?
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, he was really the architect of that AFPAC Strategy as it's called, you know, looking at the region and not just at Afghanistan and not just the Pakistan but a combination. But you'd have to say that that policy really is already set.
And if you look at the last two years, I mean, he was out there in the wilds of Afghanistan and Pakistan, meeting with the people in the field, talking with them. And that's what's really going to be missed. I mean, the policy is one thing. But the guy who could go out there, do the deals, sit across the table and really talk with people is gone.
However, as he himself pointed out, this is a very different war. You know, maybe if there were negotiations with the Taliban, he could do it. But as he pointed out, there's no Slobodan Milosevic. There's no big leader and there are no armies. It's terrorists and that's a very different ball of wax.
GERGEN: Anderson, there was also a very different side of Dick Holbrooke. He was tempestuous. He was larger than life as Paul just said. I think he was difficult to live with.
In his first two -- first two marriages ended in divorce. He had a couple of kids, sons, of whom he was very proud. But in 1995 he married Kati Marton who had been married to Peter Jennings. And that became one of the great romances of New York City especially in foreign policy circles.
And he told me on many occasions just how devoted he was to her and how important he was to her life. There was a soft side, a vulnerable side to Dick Holbrooke that Kati filled. And I think a lot of people who knew them will remember them as that romantic couple.
I -- I want to play for our viewers something that President Obama said earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Richard is relentless. He never stops. He never quits, because he's always believed that if we stay focused, if we act on our mutual interests, that progress is possible.
Wars can end. Peace can be forged. This is the conviction that animates his work in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Paul, I mean, certainly his -- his career was not without bouts of turbulence even in -- in this administration.
BEGALA: Oh absolutely. I see a lot of people use the phrase "bull in a China shop". What -- what I think was unique about Holbrooke is this. A lot of people in diplomacy particularly at his level are very bright. And a few people are very tough. But it's never the same person.
Frankly, a lot of people who are not too bright, they tend to overcompensate by being too, you know, macho and too much swagger. Maybe some people who are overly bright have the paralysis of analysis and they never want to act.
Richard was always both the toughest and the smartest guy in the room. And I think that's why he was so successful. I mean, he -- it -- it would have been the highlight of anybody else's career but we haven't mentioned yet. But in 1996 he brought peace in Cyprus between the Greeks and the Turks. It could have been a war and it never was because of Richard Holbrooke. He brought peace to Bosnia.
And he relished having the hardest job in the whole world, trying to fix this Afghan/Pakistan problem for the United States. So and I -- I think if anybody was ideally suited to it, it was that combination of absolute brilliance and really remarkable toughness.
COOPER: Sanjay, I never actually heard his medical conditional before. And you and I have both have talked about heart stuff a lot because of a family, common family histories here.
COOPER: Someone watching this now, or somebody hears about, you know, tears in the aorta, what can they do, or what should they know about it moving forward? I mean, if it's not something that necessarily shows up, you know, until it's too late.
GUPTA: Yes, well, here's the good news. First of all, it is still pretty rare. So you know, in the United States, for example, maybe around 2,000 cases of this sort of problem in a given year; so that -- that's rare in the scheme of things.
Two things I would really say, Anderson is that hypertension, high blood pressure, we talk about it all the time. This is one of the worst consequences of -- of high blood pressure.
Most people with high blood pressure will never have a problem like this but if -- if you do have it then it obviously needs to be controlled. And there is -- there are a couple of genetic syndromes as well which cause the connective tissue within your blood vessels to just become kind of flimsy and not so strong.
Marfan's Syndrome is one of those. You don't have to remember the name but the point is that if you have one of those types of problems then you may need to be screened for this sort of thing, you know, getting tests to see if there is any -- any problems with your aorta.
But you know, it is a difficult thing to screen for. And, again, most of those 2,000 people that I was just mentioning, the first time they -- they ever know that they have this sort of problem is when they have the actual dissection and something -- and this occurs.
GERGEN: He had actually had --
GERGEN: -- Sanjay, he had heart problems in the past --
GERGEN: -- and I think they were keeping a close eye on him. GUPTA: Yes and just to be clear, you know heart -- heart issues are -- are different. You know, when -- when people have blockages of the blood vessels going to the heart, that is a much more common thing. And -- and you know obviously, people are -- are much more well-versed on heart disease.
This is the major blood vessel leading away from the heart. John Ritter back in 2003, what -- this -- this was the same thing that he had. And at -- and at first people thought it was a heart attack but in fact it was this aortic dissection.
COOPER: Well, certainly our thoughts and prayers are with his family, with Kati and -- and his kids. David, I appreciate you coming on. And Paul Begala as well, and Dr. Sanjay Gupta and Jill Dougherty thanks.
Let us know what you think. The live chat up and running right now at AC360.com.
Up next, President Obama's tax deal with the Republicans and how he changed his position to get it. How John McCain has done a 180 of his own on taxes too and the chances the deal will go through after clearing a big hurdle today. We'll tell you about that, "Keeping Them Honest".
And later, the fallout from Bernie Madoff's Ponzi scheme; it's just a really a tragic horrific development over the weekend; another life claimed, this time his son's.
COOPER: Tomorrow we may see a major development in the Senate on the tax deal that President Obama hammered out with Republicans. The Senate today voting 83-15 to move the tax deal to a final vote President Obama spoke about a few hours ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: So I urge the House of Representatives to act quickly on this important matter because if there's one thing we can agree on, it's the urgent work of protecting middle class families, removing uncertainty for America's businesses and giving our economy a boost as we head into the New Year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, "Keeping Them Honest" though you did not hear him mention that other key part of the deal, extending the Bush cuts to the wealthiest Americans. And it's something candidate Obama talked about a lot.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: I end the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans.
And it means letting the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans expire.
And rolling back the Bush tax cuts to the top one percent.
We have to roll back.
I want to roll back.
We're going to roll back.
I'm going to roll back the Bush tax cuts for the very wealthiest Americans.
For the wealthiest Americans.
For the wealthiest Americans.
For the wealthiest Americans.
It is true that I want to roll back the Bush tax cuts on the very wealthiest Americans and go back to the rate that they paid under Bill Clinton.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, that was Mr. Obama on the campaign trail making a pledge he kept making well into the White House, but gave up on to cut the deal. Liberal Democrats are now accusing him of caving and punting as House Democrat Anthony Weiner said on third down. What was interesting this weekend was John McCain latched on to some of those clips you just saw.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN, (R) ARIZONA: I guess it was my old beloved friend (INAUDIBLE) that said the politician's prayer is, "May the words I utter today be tender and sweet because tomorrow I may have to eat them."
We're seeing clips all over the place. We can't extend these tax cuts for the rich. The rich people, you know, all of the -- the clips we've seen of the President.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Now, we don't know if Senator McCain was simply offering the President some free political advice or taking a little poke at him or something else. You can decide for yourself.
But "Keeping Him Honest" as well we did some checking and it didn't take long to see that Senator McCain also seems to have changed his position on taxes on the wealthy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCAIN: I'm not sure we need to give two-thirds of that tax cut of that money to the wealthiest 10 percent of America. I won't take every last dime of the surplus and spend it on tax cuts that mostly benefit the wealthy.
I want to give working families a tax cut. I think that that's very important. Governor Bush wants to take 38 percent of this surplus and give it to the wealthiest one percent of the Americans.
When you are -- reached a certain level of comfort there's nothing wrong with paying somewhat more.
I voted against the tax cut. I voted against it because I didn't think there was sufficient relief for working Americans and I think that events that have transpired since then validated that vote.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That was Senator McCain's standing position he held until 2004. He voted for the compromise today even though he disagreed with some other parts of it. The bottom line though and neither he nor President Obama have been perfectly consistent over the years on this.
The question is what happens next with the deal in the Senate and the House and in the election in 2012.
Earlier I talked with Erick Erickson, editor-in-chief of RedState.com; Democratic strategist James Carville; and Democratic pollster Cornell Belcher.
COOPER: So James, what are -- what are the politics of this? I mean, does the President get a boost from this compromise or -- or since he campaigned on not extending the tax cut for the rich, does he get hurt?
JAMES CARVILLE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, he campaigned on extending them for the middle class. I -- you know, I don't know. I think the Republicans may get hurt slightly. Elections have consequences and one of the consequences of this election if you're a rich person, you did very well.
I think they should make the argument that the Republicans are doubling down on failure. The Bush tax cuts demonstrably did not work and why we continue with this policy I have no idea. But -- that -- that's the situation we are now and the Democrats lost the election and that they have -- they have to deal with that.
COOPER: Erick, you say conservatives should oppose the bill, but it's not -- not a hell to die on. I believe was your quote. What do you mean?
ERICK ERICKSON, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, REDSTATE.COM: Right, well-- well, the deal a lot of Republicans think, a lot of conservatives think they probably could have gotten a little bit better deal in January, but there's no guarantee on it. So did they want to take the gamble or not? A lot of Republicans privately have said they thought they might be able to other than on the estate tax issue. But the question is what House Democrats will do? Republicans didn't want to be seen as killing the deal. They would much prefer it if House Democrats would but that looks unlikely now.
COOPER: Cornell, how do you see it? Where I mean --
CORNELL BELCHER, DEMOCRATIC POLLSTER: I -- I've got -- I've got to tell you that Erick saying Republicans are complaining that they didn't get the best deal is news to our liberal Democrats. It's really interesting.
I think that the President has is -- is slightly different where House Democrats -- I think James is absolutely right. House Democrats have to say this is doubling down on failure.
But for my -- but for my guy, and you know, the guy who I work for, I think for him when you listen to people out there in middle America talk about -- sort of -- a bit not understanding what all the fighting is about and saying you know, why can't they all get in the room and work together. The President's imperative here was to finds bipartisanship.
To me, sort of for him to find a bipartisan sort of closure this and bring this up was really important for him to look like a leader and an adult in a room with all the kids around him fighting.
COOPER: James, so by -- by setting this up that this comes up again in two years during a presidential race, isn't the President kind of walking into a trap of -- of basically letting this become a major issue during the Presidential race?
CARVILLE: Well -- well, no it doesn't. A lot of provisions will come up within a year. It's the stuff that the rich people get that's coming up within two years. The stuff that the -- that the working stiff gets comes in a year. They got a half a loaf here. So let's -- let's be careful there.
And I -- I suspect that that -- that was about all he could do because this makes the deficit numbers -- the ten-year projections look awful because these tax cuts are hideously expensive, they're something like $4 trillion over 10-year period.
And -- and so everybody comes and says we're going to do something about the deficit and then we say, I'll make a deal. I'll give you everything you want if you give us half of what we want. And so they agree with that and that's pretty much where we are.
COOPER: Erick, do you see this as something which is -- is a good idea for the Obama administration to have come up in -- in two years?
ERICKSON: I see this as a great idea for Republicans particularly if thing go according to plans for everybody fighting out Obama care. That's going to be coming up as well in 2012. I'm sure by then it will have reached the Supreme Court and they'll have a decision in the election year 2012. The tax cut issue in 2012.
All these things -- I see this as helping Republicans. Democrats can quibble over it and say they're helping the rich, but fundamentally they make that argument every time and consistently lose on it.
CARVILLE: But it's not a quibble. It's a fact. It's a fact people don't much like them and it's also a fact Erick, that demonstrably it didn't work. In the five years of the so-called --
ERICKSON: Jim, that's not true at all.
CARVILLE: They didn't work at all. There was no income --
ERICKSON: After the tax cuts were passed in 2002 and 2003 -- remember we were in a recession when they were passed -- we had the lowest unemployment we've had in years, even lower than Bill Clinton had. We had a stock market higher that was higher than when Bill Clinton was president. They worked -- the bottom fell out when the Democrats came back in and uncertainty was introduced.
CARVILLE: Erick, come on, man. Come on.
ERICKSON: James, those are the numbers.
CARVILLE: Five years -- I'm sorry. You're going to say the stock market under Bush was better than the stock market under Clinton I'm going to fall off the chair. The whole world --
ERICKSON: Those are the numbers, James.
CARVILLE: Take it back. You're not looking good. You're not going to look good when you compare the Clinton market with the Bush market.
ERICKSON: You always say how awful these tax cuts were. They didn't work but the fact is under George Bush after the tax cuts were passed we had ridiculously low unemployment. The unemployment didn't start going back up until 2007.
CARVILLE: Let's look at income growth, stock market, deficit, everything and compare Clinton and Bush. In the entire eight years Bush was president created one million jobs. I mean please -- you got to deal with the facts. I'm sorry man.
ERICKSON: James, I'm dealing with the facts. The unemployment rate under George Bush after 2003 was significantly low.
CARVILLE: OK. All right, the stock market was better under Bush. You're going to look like a fool, man. Don't do it. Don't say that. ERICKSON: You know what? James, I could be wrong on the stock market, but I'm absolutely right on the unemployment.
CARVILLE: You couldn't be wrong on the stock market. You are wrong.
ERICKSON: Well, You know I'm right on unemployment, James.
CARVILLE: Jobs created not close. Not close.
BELCHER: What's interesting is you're talking about Clinton/Bush and not Bush/Obama.
CARVILLE: Obama, the stock market is much better under Obama than Bush, much better.
BELCHER: Here is what is really clear is that under Clinton, you did have a peace and prosperity that was broader to more Americans. Right now under George Bush -- I'm sorry, but under George Bush you've got prosperity that was fairly concentrated on a very few individuals and this was part of the problem with the country right now.
The middle class -- you're in a class warfare. You just don't know it yet. You better start shooting.
ERICKSON: I appreciate the two against one here but I think the Bush record speaks for itself. And you guys are so interested in blaming Bush as opposed to looking at it now.
The unemployment under Bush was a fantastically low number. You had massive amount of people employed.
BELCHER: Erick I can't believe you're defending eight years of Bush. I'm shocked.
ERICKSON: I'm absolutely defending the years of Bush. I mean, the fact that you guys have preferred to ignore it and ignore Obama's record as well.
CARVILLE: I can't -- it's breathtaking. We live on two different planets.
COOPER: James, the 2012 election, though, does it then become a referendum on health care reform and on tax cuts? I mean, is that -- are those the two central issues?
CARVILLE: You know, who knows? I mean, a lot can happen. I don't think -- I really think the election is about economic growth. I don't think the election is about tax cuts that people making over $250,000 a year, the tax on estate over $5 million a year. It may be that but I beg to differ.
I do not think it's going to be about that. The Republicans argue that we need incremental small changes in health care that we have the best health -- cheapest, best health care in the world. Democrats think otherwise.
I think that's something that we're going to have to slug it out on. It -- sometimes elections have to be about something. The Democrats lost this election. We'll see where it goes. The President has to make the case.
COOPER: All right. We're going to leave it there. Cornell -- I appreciate it. Cornell Belcher, James Carville, Erick Erickson. Thanks.
You heard Erick and James going at it over the tax deal. The Bush and Clinton record on the economy, job growth, economic growth and the stock market.
We wanted to check as many of the statements as we could. We always try to check the factual accuracy of what our guest say bearing in mind that external factors like the 9/11 attacks made a difference and timing played a big part as well regarding job growth. And according to the nonpartisan Web site Politifact, there was a net gain of just over a million jobs during the Bush administration and more than 22 million during the Clinton administration. The way Erick was focusing on unemployment numbers -- percentage.
As for growth rate according to the World Bank, it was 3.34 percent for 1992, 3.69 percent in 2000 and everyone's dipping below 2.5 percent in the Bush years. The economy grew 0.76 percent in his first year in office, peaked in 2005 at 3.65, and went down to its low point in 2008 obviously with the economy shrinking about a half percent.
Stock market: Dow Industrial rose about 7,000 points during the Clinton presidency; dropped 2,000 point during the course of the Bush years though again timing and 9/11 attacks also played a part.
Still ahead another tragedy related to Bernie Madoff. Madoff's son who turned in his father two years ago, he hanged himself in New York two years to the day his dad was arrested. Details on that coming up.
Also ahead, "Crime and Punishment", is he a grieving husband unjustly prosecuted for a second time or a murderer who drowned his new bride while scuba diving on their honeymoon in Australia? The latest on this bizarre story ahead on the program.
COOPER: A story that's ruined thousands of lives took another sad turn this weekend when the oldest son of Bernie Madoff committed suicide. His name was Mark Madoff; he hanged himself in his New York apartment two years to the day that his dad was arrested in the largest Ponzi scheme in American history.
Bernie Madoff, you'll remember, swindled $50 billion from investors. Many of his victims were relatives, long-time family friends. There's been a lot of speculation about whether Madoff might actually attend his son's funeral. He's serving a life sentence in a North Carolina prison. Many -- actually, I think about a 150-year sentence.
Joe Johns joins me now with the latest. What do we know about how all this transpired, Joe?
JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, it's pretty awful. Police said Mark Madoff hanged himself with a dog leash in his apartment in Soho. It was attached to a ceiling pipe. His 2-year-old son was in the apartment. Police said the boy wasn't hurt.
Authorities said apparently before committing suicide Mark Madoff apparently sent an e-mail to his wife, who happened to be in Florida with their daughter, telling her to have someone check on their son. And so his father-in-law went to the apartment and found the body still hanging.
Mark Madoff's death as you said came on the two-year anniversary of when he and his brother told police Bernie Madoff had confessed to fraud and actually they're the ones who turned him in. Bernie Madoff 71, 72 years old, serving a 130-year prison sentence.
COOPER: And Madoff, Bernie Madoff is not going to be attending his son's funeral, right?
JOHNS: Right there have at least been reports Bernie Madoff did not want to attend that funeral out of respect for his children and grandchildren. He apparently told somebody he was going to have a private ceremony in his prison in North Carolina.
But, you know, the truth is, there's no way of telling if the Federal Bureau of Prison would even give him a furlough to get out because he hadn't been in that long.
COOPER: We also know -- it was obviously -- Mark Madoff worked for his dad's firm but then turned in his father.
COOPER: Was he implicated in the fraud?
JOHNS: Well, there was an investigation and they checked him out and it's not clear at all that the investigation was over.
But about the relationship, I mean, we know that it wasn't a good one. For one thing, Mark Madoff worked at the firm, turned him in. He confessed. There are also reports he hadn't really had any contact with his parents since that day when all of this happened two years ago. He still got sued, though, through the bankruptcy trustee.
And this was a guy who apparently was looking at Mark Madoff saying, you know, this -- Mark Madoff is a guy who knew or should have known about the fraud even though Mark Madoff made it pretty clear that in his view or at least his assertions were that he didn't know about the fraud. COOPER: And what happens in the Madoff case now? I mean, it goes on.
JOHNS: Yes. There's every indication it's going to go on. This bankruptcy trustee is very aggressive. He filed a lot of lawsuits to try to recover money. One of those lawsuits actually names Mark Madoff. The "Wall Street Journal" says the trustee claimed in a lawsuit that Mark improperly received something like $66.9 million through his father's investment company. His attorney has denied it and said that's an absurd claim, pretty much.
But the trustee is still going to try to get whatever money he can get for the people who were ripped off.
COOPER: And who else is -- I mean there's a lot of folks getting sued. Who else is getting sued here?
JOHNS: You name it. There's family members, associates, accountants, banks, there's one Austrian banker. I mean there's people all over the world who really have been sort of drawn into this as the bankruptcy trustee goes about the business of trying to recover the money from basically the largest fraudulent transaction scheme in history.
COOPER: I read in the "Times" over the weekend the trustee may be able to get as much as 50 cents on the dollar for some of those folks who lost money which is more than initially they had thought. But again it all depends on how much money they are able to get from the various lawsuits that he's filed. And they filed an awful lot as you said Joe.
Joe, appreciate it. Thanks for coming up.
In "Crime and Punishment": a man accused of killing his bride 11 days after their wedding while scuba diving on the honeymoon in Australia. He'd already served time there. Now he's in jail in Alabama facing another trial for murder.
Find out what the alleged motive was. We have all the latest.
But first Susan Hendricks joins us with a "360 Bulletin" -- Susan.
SUSAN HENDRICKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson a ruling on President Obama's health care reform is expected to start a legal battle that could wind up in the Supreme Court. A federal judge in Virginia today found a cornerstone of the reform package unconstitutional. The judge struck down the mandate that requires most Americans to buy health insurance by 2014. The justice department is expected to take the issue to a federal appeals court.
Republican National Committee chairman Michael Steele has broken his silence and says he will in fact seek a second term. Steele made that announcement on a conference call with RNC members tonight.
Yes, those dreaded baggage fees the airlines are charging are earning them bags of cash. The Bureau of Transportation statistics show airlines have made more than $2.5 billion so far on the baggage fees. That is up 22.5 percent since a year ago. They're making a lot of cash.
COOPER: I couldn't believe they made that much money when I read that this morning.
HENDRICKS: I know.
COOPER: Amazing. Susan thanks.
For tonight's shot, Russian prime minister, Vladimir Putin showing a softer side in a video that's -- well, it's gone viral on YouTube. A shot at a children's charity dinner in St. Petersburg where Putin took the stage and sang Fat Domino's Blueberry Hill in English. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(RUSSIAN PRIME MINISTER VLADIMIR PUTIN SINGING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Is that Blueberry Hill. That didn't sound like Blueberry Hill. Did it? I don't know.
Anyway, apparently actors Goldie Hawn and Kurt Russell there as you saw them in the audience seemed to be enjoying the rather odd show. It sounds like he's auto tuned. I'm not sure.
Putin is singing pretty good; it does not hold a candle though to the former president Yeltsin kind of doing the chicken dance which lives on in YouTube. Let's watch and enjoy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(FORMER SOVIET PRESIDENT BORIS YELTSIN DANCING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: that was it. All right. No more chicken dance. It wasn't really the chicken dance.
Coming up later, New York Jets coach really tripping up; we'll show you what he did that punted him straight on to tonight's "RidicuList".
And next, just a bizarre story, a man accused of killing his bride 11 days after their wedding. He's waiting right now for a trial in Alabama. He's already spent time in jail in Australia. The wife died on their honeymoon in Australia while scuba diving. Did she drown or did he kill her for insurance money? We'll hear -- we'll hear the details ahead.
COOPER: Tonight in "Crime and Punishment", a man who is accused of killing his bride on their honeymoon is in jail in Alabama right now waiting for his trial. His name is Gabe Watson. He married his wife Tina in 2003 in Birmingham and just 11 days later on their honeymoon in Australia prosecutors say he killed her while they were scuba diving off the Great Barrier Reef.
Watson pleaded guilty in Australia to criminally negligent manslaughter. According to his attorney he did that only because he didn't rescue her and didn't do enough to save her. She drowned. Watson spent less than two years in jail in Australia but back in Alabama he's facing murder and kidnapping charges. So seven years after the fateful honeymoon, the story has just begun.
Tom Foreman has the latest.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Simply and brutally put, this is a story of two images. The first captured in this home video of Gabe Watson and his new bride Tina on their wedding day in Alabama in 2003; the second, a week and a half later on their honeymoon at Australia's Great Barrier Reef. That's Tina on the ocean floor, minutes after beginning the dive of a lifetime, lying dead under 85 feet of water.
Now after years of legal wrangling, Gabe Watson is back home charged with murder and Tina's parents are grimly awaiting trial.
TOMMY THOMAS, TINA'S FATHER: Until that day comes, until he actually faces the evidence for the first time in a criminal trial before a jury, there can be no rest or no peace for anyone in our family.
FOREMAN: Australian police who made this re-enactment video theorize this is what happened. Watson put his new wife into a bear hug, cut off her air supply and then watched her drown. Why? Alabama prosecutors say it was to collect a $200,000 life insurance policy which they say he asked her to increase dramatically right before the wedding.
She did not get around to it, they say. But told him she had. The story from Watson and his lawyers is of course quite different.
BRETT BLOOMTON, GABE WATSON'S ATTORNEY: Gabe was upbeat. He was positive and optimistic.
FOREMAN: Watson told Australian investigators the couple found unexpectedly strong currents underwater. He had a problem with his equipment that separated them from other divers and then his wife, a novice, panicked. He had much more experience and swam to help her.
"Her hand hit my mask," he told police. "It knocked my mask sideways so I had to let go and kind of turn back so I would have some space because at that point I didn't know if she was still flailing." When he tried to return to her, he says she was sinking. She was looking up, had both her arms out, you know, reached, stretched up, almost like looking at me.
"I remember getting to the top, yanking my mask off, spitting out my regulator and just yelling, Tina's gone down."
Watson pleaded guilty in Australia to manslaughter saying he should have tried harder to save his bride. He was locked up a year and a half. His attorneys say that's enough suffering for a grieving husband and they call the capital murder charges he now faces here nonsense.
But Alabama prosecutors insist Watson was plotting the murder even as he took his vows and that's why they can bring charges even though it happened in Australia. They say that he's told 16 different versions of what happened; that all the dive equipment was checked and found fine, that Tina had a full tank of air and her regulator in her mouth when she died.
And if they prove all they say, he could spend the rest of his life in prison.
Tom Foreman, CNN.
COOPER: It's a really strange case. I talked about it earlier with legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.
COOPER: How hard is it to prosecute a case like this when it's circumstantial evidence and happened eight years ago?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: In Australia.
COOPER: In Australia.
TOOBIN: It's a very difficult case to make for all sorts of reasons, including the issue of motive, which he's -- there was some insurance policy there, but it wasn't an enormous amount of money and mostly the technical aspect of the case. The physical evidence which involves the scuba equipment is very questionable in this case.
COOPER: Right. And an Australian paper came out with a story saying that Australian police made some mistakes early on in the investigation relating to the diving equipment.
TOOBIN: That's right. Because the central evidence in this case is basically what he did or didn't do with her diving equipment. Did he pull it away from her? Did she just die the way people in scuba accidents sometimes die?
This is not only eight years ago. It's an investigation that took place eight years ago. And you've got the problems from then, which are incurable now.
COOPER: Had there not been this agreement about the death penalty, would you think this would be a death penalty case?
TOOBIN: Alabama is a state that really embraces the death penalty. This is a state where 50 people have been executed in the last few years. Given -- if you believe that this guy killed his wife intentionally on their honeymoon, it is certainly a case that Alabama would have sought the death penalty for.
COOPER: Can they, even though they made this agreement or they agreed that it wouldn't be -- can they reverse that? Can they go against it?
TOOBIN: Absolutely not. They cannot go back on this agreement. These sorts of arrangements are fairly common, extradition on the condition that you not seek the death penalty. We're one of the few developed countries that still has the death penalty. There are a lot of countries that won't extradite people to the United States if we say we're going to use the death penalty.
So it's the state department, the U.S. State Department, not the Alabama government that monitors those sorts of agreements. There's no way they can go back on it.
COOPER: And obviously there's no double jeopardy. They can retry because it was in Australia. It doesn't
TOOBIN: That's right. Double jeopardy is a lot less of a protection than people think. You remember the Rodney King case where you had a state prosecution of the cops which failed and then you had a successful federal prosecution.
When there are different jurisdictions you almost always can get around the problem of double jeopardy.
COOPER: All right. Jeff Toobin thanks.
COOPER: Strange case.
Still ahead tonight, Sarah Palin's visit to Haiti. Our Gary Tuchman is there and he joins us tonight with details.
And later, an NFL coach suspended for the rest of the season. His bad behavior also lands him on the "RidicuList". We'll tell you what he did, ahead.
COOPER: Well, you may have heard that Sarah Palin was in Haiti over the weekend. She arrived Saturday, visited some cholera clinics and traveled with a relief group led by Franklin Graham.
It's certainly a tense time in Haiti. Commercial flights were canceled last week because of civil unrest. Demonstrations broke out after disputed election results were announced.
Gary Tuchman joins me now from Haiti -- Gary.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, when Sarah Palin was here this weekend, she didn't see the rain, but she did see the tears. She talked to earthquake victims. She talked to cholera victims. The cholera epidemic is still raging here. She was a guest of Franklin Graham. Franklin Graham is the son of the Reverend Billy Graham. Franklin Graham is the President and CEO of Samaritan's Purse. It's a charity organization that does a lot of good work here. For example, they've built more than 10,000 shelters for earthquake victims.
It was a very unusual visit, because most of us didn't get to cover it. As a matter of fact we never got to see Sarah Palin with one Haitian because Sarah Palin and her people made the decision that not just CNN but the Associated Press, Haitian news organizations, nobody could cover her visit except for the place where she works, the Fox News Channel who was with her the entire time.
Now, she's not officially running for president. She has every right to have anyone she wants to with her, but she is considered a VIP and traditionally in disaster zones, the news media worked with other. FOX News helps us. We help ABC. CBS helps the BBC. We help the VIPs -- the VIPs help us and we get the news out there for desperate people like the Haitian people here. But in this case, we did not get to cover it.
Now, we wanted to ask her why she didn't want the news media with her. She said she was having a news conference. And that was yesterday. We went the news conference, but it really wasn't a news conference, because as soon as we got there, Franklin Graham announced that Sarah Palin will not be taking any questions. Therefore it's a statement, not a news conference.
Sarah Palin said she did not want to get political, and that's why she wasn't going to answer questions. So instead, she made a statement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH PALIN, FORMER GOVERNOR OF ALASKA (voice-over): I don't want Americans to forget the need that is here. More importantly, for Americans and people across the world to know what an individual can do to make a difference, to contribute, to kind of get out of your comfort zone and volunteer to help.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUCHMAN: We still wanted to see if we could make it a semi-news conference, so I then tried to ask her at least one question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PALIN: Thank you. You are -- you're doing God's work. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Governor. Thank you.
TUCHMAN: Could I ask you a question? Is this different than you expected?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
PALIN: Much harsher than I had expected. The conditions are much rougher.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: How about the violence at the moment? I mean, in terms of political situation on the ground, is Port-au-Prince calm? What's happening?
TUCHMAN: Yes, last week was very rough, very violent, Anderson. It quieted down over the weekend while-- excuse me, while Sarah Palin was here. There was fear, though, a lot of rumors on the radio that it would pick up today, but it's been raining all day. This is nature's policeman. This keeps things quiet.
There's a lot of concern here, and we keep hearing a lot of things on the radio that things will pick up tomorrow with the violence.
And one of the reasons for the violence, remember this name: Sweet Mickey Martelli. He was the third-place finisher in the Presidential race. The Presidential race has a run-off on January 15, the first two finishers.
Sweet Mickey ended up in the third place just by 5,000 votes. A lot of his supporters feel that there was a lot of criminal action in this election campaign, a lot of fraudulent voting. Therefore, they think he should have been in second place. That's what started this all. So remember that name if this picks up again this week, the violence.
COOPER: Yes. I should point out I actually talked to the candidate, to Mr. Martelli on the phone on Friday. And he was saying that he's appealing to his supporters for calm. He does not want violence on the streets.
But, you know, folks have been demonstrating and sort of isolated pockets of violence. But folks have been demonstrating because they do feel that the elections have been stolen and that he was a very popular candidate.
Again, it remains to be seen what's going to happen in terms of whether there's a full recount, whether it's just, you know, an occasional recount of some of the votes. That's where the demonstrations really are kind of focused on.
Gary, we're glad you're there. We'll continue to talk to you through the week.
Up next, we're throwing a penalty flag on the Jets football coach whose unsportsmanlike conduct was caught on camera; he's the latest addition to tonight's "RidicuList". But first Susan Hendricks joins us again with a "360 Bulletin" -- Susan.
HENDRICKS: Anderson, Swedish authorities say the bomber who apparently killed himself in Stockholm Saturday was probably on his way to a more crowded location when his bomb went off prematurely.
The chief prosecutor in the case says it is likely the man will get confirmation through DNA testing and it's likely him. Authorities are also linking him to a nearby car blast. Two people were injured there.
The Calorie Commando is sent to jail. That is Juan Carlos Cruz, the former Food Network chef. He was sentenced to nine years behind bars for trying to hire two homeless men to kill his wife.
Julian Assange's lawyer says a secret grand jury is meeting in Virginia to consider criminal charges against the WikiLeaks founder. U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder has said that he authorized significant actions related to investigating the release of diplomatic cables but hasn't elaborated on what those actions are.
You know, it's not even winter yet, believe it or not, and winter weather advisories are in effect tonight for more than a half-dozen states. Frigid temps stretch all the way to Florida, and that storm that hit the upper Midwest is taking aim now at the northeast. It's a mess there.
Meanwhile in Washington State, the concern is major flooding along rivers in nine counties. The culprit, rain, that has also triggered mud slides.
And is there more to Mona Lisa's stare than we can see? Well, art historians say with a microscope they have found the letters "L" and "V" carved into her right eye, presumably the initials of Leonardo da Vinci. The left eye is not as clear. This say it seems to have several letters and possibly some numbers. This is leading many to wonder if this is the true Da Vinci code -- hmm.
HENDRICKS: In unison, hmm.
Time to add another name to tonight's "RidicuList"; it's our nightly salute to those who cross the line.
The honor tonight goes to an NFL coach who was totally tripping last night, Sal Alosi of the New York Jets. Alosi is the team's strength coach. But thinking clearly is apparently not one of his own strengths.
Check this out: he actually stuck his knee out and tripped Miami player Nolan Carroll as he ran past him on the Jets sideline. Here's how it played out live.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wow. This is just uncalled for in the NFL. Watch the knee here being stuck out on purpose to trip up Nolan Carroll. Not sure who that person is, but they should be ashamed of themselves for that type of action. That has no place in any athletic event.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Of course, the offending knee and the offender attached to it has since been identified as a fan of "Hard Knocks" on HBO. I don't know if you watch the show. I do.
I've been watching the Jets a lot lately but this is one hard knock I never expected to see, although frankly we have seen unsportsmanlike behavior from coaches before.
Back in the '70s Ohio State coach Woody Hayes threw a punch at a player from Clemson before he was restrained by his own players. He was fired the next day and never coached again.
Sal Alosi says he's sorry, that he wasn't thinking when he tripped the Dolphins player, and that his actions were inexcusable and irresponsible, also kind of naive. I mean, when you think about it, between all the cameras and the instant replays and the slow motion from every conceivable angle, did he really think he'd get away with it; that no one would notice?
The NFL has suspended Alosi for the rest of the season without pay. He'll also be fined $25,000. We're not sure which will be more painful for him: that or being added to tonight's "RidicuList".
COOPER: Hey, that's it for 360. Thanks for watching.
"LARRY KING" starts now.
See you tomorrow night.