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Porn Addict Allegedly Kills Wife; Did M.E. Make Mistake in Caylee Anthony`s Autopsy?

Aired January 14, 2011 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, an atrocious attack in the war on women. A half-naked wife found stabbed to death in her own home. Her self-proclaimed porn-addict husband confesses to cops that he just snapped and staged the murder to look like a home invasion. You won`t believe how he mutilated her. And what role did porn play in all of this? We`ll examine the epidemic of intimate partner violence.

Plus, seismic developments in the Casey Anthony case. Did coroners make a mistake in little Caylee`s initial autopsy? Does the defense now have the evidence they need to blow this case wide open? You will not believe what one expert`s saying.

Then, a Mega scandal. Does the second winner of the $380 million lottery jackpot have a dark secret in her past? We`ll tell you about the 29-year-old mother of two, her estranged husband and her own brushes with the law. You do not want to miss this twisted Mega back story.

And superstar Kelsey Grammer`s messy split from wife Camille played out on "The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills." A friend claims Camille`s famous husband was cheating on her with another woman. Tonight on ISSUES, we ask, is it a friend`s place to blow the whistle on a cheating spouse?

ISSUES starts now.





UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you need an ambulance or officers?

BARTLETT: Officers, I just got home to my wife. Somebody broke in and killed her. Oh, God. I`ve been at the basketball game. Oh, God. Please hurry.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, God, I`m lying.

Tonight, breaking news. A self-confessed porn addict, the one you just heard there on the 911 call, is accused of murdering his wife of almost 30 years. Cops say Reggie Bartlett told them he, quote, "snapped" when his wife caught him watching porn, and then called him out on his porn habit.

Cops say to cover it up he staged a pornographically violent scene to make it look like his wife was brutally raped and murdered during a home invasion. Can a porn addiction drive you to murder?

Cops say Bartlett actually made the 911 call, pretending to find his wife`s body in their Bethany, Oklahoma, home. After a few hours of questioning from skeptical cops who didn`t buy his whole rolling on the floor and moaning, cops say Bartlett cracked and admitted to him, "I killed my wife." He said, quote, "He`d done a bad thing" and that he, quote, "deserved to die" and that he was, quote, "addicted to porn." Addicted to porn.

Here are some of the Facebook photos of the Bartletts in happier times. Take a look at them. Look at this poor woman. You won`t believe how she was left, her corpse was left, by her husband.

The arrest affidavit says Bartlett told cops his wife, Cathy, slapped him on the head when she caught him watching porn on the computer and that he allegedly snapped, grabbed a knife, and stabbed her repeatedly.

The suspect`s son cannot believe it. Listen to him.


DEVIN BARTLETT, REGINALD`S SON: I know he loved her, and I know she loved him very much. And I will never understand what happened. I don`t think anybody can.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Cops say Bartlett tried to make it look like his wife had been raped and murdered. And to do that, he stabbed her in the face, the chest, the stomach, and even the genital area?

And then he says he left the house to go destroy evidence and also to go shopping and watch a basketball game. Hmm. All to hide a porn addiction?

Straight out to Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor. I don`t know if I buy the "Oh, I just snapped. It wasn`t premeditated" argument. Do you?

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Oh, please. Oh, please. You know, these convenient excuses that come up after the fact -- "Oh, poor me" -- are really only about the fact that this guy knew he was doomed. He didn`t cover the scene well enough, and he was in trouble.

So then it turns into "Oh, I have an addiction." Why? Because in this country we sometimes give discounts to people who do bad things and claim to have done it because of an addiction. Usually it`s drugs. This is one of the newer ones.

I`ll tell you what I don`t like about this story, Jane. Why aren`t we talking about the possibility that this guy, because he was watching porn, which these days is grotesque...


MURPHY: ... may well have been incited -- incited -- to violence?

We think the guy in Arizona committed mass murder because he watched a map. Why aren`t we talking about a guy watching porn, which is violent sex, stimulating violent sex, that rewards men for being violent, OK, in their sexual habits, turns around, sexually assaults and kills his wife? Oh, I don`t know. Is there a connection?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen, I think it`s very possible he is addicted to porn, and that it did inspire him to commit this horrific crime. When you hear the details, you will possibly make the connection at home. Listen to this.

This poor woman died a horrific death, and we`ve got to warn you. These details are tough to listen to.

The arrest affidavit says this beautiful, dignified woman, cops found Cathy Bartlett dead on the floor with her legs spread open, her shirt pulled up to show her breasts, and she was naked. She had multiple stab wounds to her face, her chest, and her genitals. Cops say her husband had tried to make it look like she`d been raped by a violent stranger in a home invasion.

Again, the suspect`s son is in shock.


BARTLETT: I will tell him that I don`t understand what happened, and I`m very angry. And very hurt that it happened. But I also will tell him that his family will be here for him.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Well, I don`t think it`s an accident that this guy is addicted to porn. I certainly don`t -- and then he stabs his wife in the genitals? I find that very symbolically significant.

Let`s go to Dr. Jen Berman, psychotherapist. Is there a pornographic mindset here? As Wendy Murphy said, he`s watching women being violated in a horrifically violent way via porn. And then his wife, he kills her in a horrifically violent way, stabbing her genital area.

JAN BERMAN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Look, porn doesn`t make people kill, but when someone is mentally ill, when someone is...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mentally ill? There`s no evidence that he was mentally ill. With all due respect, Dr. Jen Berman, he worked...

BERMAN: I understand. But...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... as a bureaucrat for 20-some years.

BERMAN: ... clearly there was something -- there was something very wrong with this man. And in a case like that, sometimes porn can be the thing that puts someone who was on the verge of losing it anyway over the edge.

And clearly, there was a correlation between the graphic images that he was watching and the way he chose to murder his wife.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, listen, I personally believe that one of the reasons why porn is so pernicious is that, if you`re addicted to porn, you`ve got to get to more and more graphic porn to get off, for lack of a better phrase.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that graphic form almost always involves violence toward women.

Now, how does somebody just snap and allegedly kill their wife of almost 30 years? Guess what? They were about to celebrate their 30th wedding anniversary.

A friend of the victim says she did not see this coming at all.


JUDY THOMAS, VICTIM`S FRIEND: I just don`t understand that kind of anger, you know. Because he didn`t seem mean to me. He didn`t have a mean spirit.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: We all know that addicts can turn violent on a dime. And here`s my big issue: violence and porn. Are they connected?

We know millions of men use porn and not all of them are going to kill their wives. But hardcore porn is almost invariably violent towards women.

We all know addiction is progressive. The addict always wants more and more, and it`s got to be more graphic in terms of porn. When somebody tries to take away their substance of choice, it sparks rage, and when someone catches them binging on their substance of choice, it sparks shame. And that`s a dangerous combination, Mark Eiglarsh.

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s correct. And in this particular case, I heard that the wife confronted him immediately before the stabbing with a bill, and that might have been a threat to him, like, "Hey, what are you spending all this money on?"

And the addict -- again, I`m not justifying his behavior, but maybe to explain what happened at that moment -- the addict is focused on his porn. She`s trying to take away his porn, and he reacts.

In no way does that justify it. Legally, this guy is looking at a plea bargain. No kind of excusing from a jury. But ultimately, that`s probably what happened. She posed a threat to his addiction, something he was powerless to control, and that is his focus on violent porn.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Wendy Murphy, he was accused of second-degree murder, presumably because he says he didn`t premeditate it because he snapped. He`s also friends with the cops. I don`t know why he is charged with second-degree murder. You can have premeditation in an instant.

MURPHY: Look, it`s probably the friendship with the cop more than anything else that justifies that charge, because there`s no reason he shouldn`t be charged with premeditation. None. And Mark and I agree on this. It may explain his behavior, but it`s not a reason to give a guy a discount.

We live in a culture where some men, because they think it`s normal to beat the hell out of a woman while they`re having sex with her, that that`s what they should do in real life. Those guys, those sociopaths, are the rare exception. And no matter what they think about what`s in the pictures, when they act on those behaviors, they go to jail forever.

Dirk Greiner (ph), remember the case in Massachusetts, a Harvard- educated doctor, did the same thing to his wife because of his porn addiction. Can we stop pathologizing and just vilify these monsters for once? That`s how I feel about this guy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Steve Kardian...

EIGLARSH: Jane, regarding -- regarding...


EIGLARSH: I just wanted to comment, though. I have yet to read anything that suggests the necessary evidence to elevate this to first- degree murder. So I don`t know that Wendy and I see eye-to-eye on that issue.


EIGLARSH: I don`t know that there`s a discount on this. If he reacted and immediately then responds to her...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And stabs his wife in the genitals?

EIGLARSH: ... and his blood is boiling and stabs his wife.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Stabs his wife in the genitals?

EIGLARSH: All acts like that are obviously intentional, but if they`re done under the heat of passion, that`s second-degree murder. I don`t see where it`s first-degree murder unless there`s more evidence.

MURPHY: Heat of passion? Heat of passion? She was yelling at him about a bill. He didn`t find her in bed with another guy. She was telling him he was spending money on porn. That`s not heat of passion, Eiglarsh. You don`t get any consideration. This was the kind of multiple stab wound case where, if you`re not going to charge premeditation, you charge...


EIGLARSH: So you`re not going to defer to the investigators?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Excuse me. Hold on.

EIGLARSH: You`re not going to defer to the investigators on this?


EIGLARSH: They chose to charge second-degree murder because they felt like it, because somehow they like this guy?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on. Let me say this.

MURPHY: His buddy, the cops.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He stabbed her repeatedly. He`s admitted to that. Even if the first stabbing was because he snapped, the second, the third, the fourth, the fifth weren`t...

EIGLARSH: Becomes irrelevant because she`s dead already. She`s dead at that point.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Because -- no, we don`t know when she died. Maybe the first stab didn`t kill her.

EIGLARSH: Absolutely.

MURPHY: Irrelevant!

EIGLARSH: You`re got to prove it.

MURPHY: That`s embarrassing, Eiglarsh.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Everybody, panel, I know Steve Kardian is waiting to weigh in. We`re going to be back with more in a second.

Also, a Casey Anthony shocker. Did the coroner fail to follow protocol? Did she mess up little Caylee`s initial autopsy? Well, that`s what the defense is claiming. We`re going to talk about what it means for the case.

And more on the sick stabbing of a wife allegedly -- well, it`s not even allegedly. He`s admitted it already, people. He told the cops, "I did stab my wife." He says he snapped. That`s what we`re asking. Did he really snap or did he plan it?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What makes people snap? In 30 years you don`t just do that to somebody, I wouldn`t think.




BARTLETT: I don`t know that I could have done anything to have stopped whatever occurred from happening, but that`s one thing I`ll never know the answer to.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, a 58-year-old self-confessed porn addict accused of killing his wife when she caught him watching porn on their computer. Cops say Reggie Bartlett told them she got mad at him, because she thought he was charging porn to their credit card. Cops say he told them he just snapped and stabbed her to death.

But Steve Kardian, we`re still saying "allegedly." Because you know how cops say these people confess all the time, and then they go to their arraignment and they plead not guilty. He has apparently not been arraigned yet, so who knows what he`s going to plead. Right, Steve?

STEVE KARDIAN, FORMER POLICE DETECTIVE: Yes. We don`t -- we don`t know, and we don`t know what the indictment is going to show when it goes to the grand jury. These are charges just to hold him.

And, you know, I`ve got to mention. Guns don`t kill people; people kill people.


KARDIAN: Porn doesn`t kill people. But you know, when we see...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Guns kill people.

KARDIAN: ... this type of rage, this type of rage, it`s usually brought about by some emotional buildup inside that person. When we see an overkill like this, the multiple stabbing, the stabbing to the genitals, it`s overkill.

What is disturbing is that he didn`t report it to police right away. He planned this methodical story to cover up the whole crime. So that`s where investigators, I think, should be looking at something additional.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So I think what you`re saying is it`s going to boil down to exactly how did she die? If he, let`s say, snapped and strangled her and then stabbed her after she was already dead, that would be less severe than if she died while he was stabbing her. I think it`s all horrific personally.

KARDIAN: In -- in rage cases, we see multiple stabbings, multiple -- it doesn`t take one stab to kill somebody.


KARDIAN: It takes several because the person bleeds out.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: She might have been alive on the tenth stab. In which case I think it is premeditated at that point. Cops say it took an hour...

MURPHY: I`ll tell you something else that`s going to get this guy in serious trouble, Jane. You know what? There was a sexual assault. We don`t know if there`s DNA. If he raped her in connection with this killing, bye-bye. Bye-bye. That will completely, completely...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you can rape your wife.

MURPHY: Of course you can. Your wife is allowed to not consent. But if his semen is in her body, I`m sorry. you can`t snap and then have an erection in this story.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Well put. Well put, as always. Wendy, we can count on you for those pungent observations.

The cops say, here`s another damaging thing. It took him hours to call 911. Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where`s your wife now?

BARTLETT: She`s in the computer room.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, is she still breathing?

BARTLETT: No, I don`t. There`s a lot of blood. Please hurry.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So in this 911 call, he`s acting like he just came in and discovered all this, and he`s all upset. But guess what cops say he was doing before he made that call.

He said he left the house. He allegedly threw his computer and the murder weapon and knife in a lake. And then -- are you sitting down -- he went shopping for golf clubs and then he attended a basketball game.

Then, Dr. Jen Berman, he comes back and starts acting like, "Oh, I just discovered her" and rolling on the ground and dog all this acting.

What do you make of the basketball game and shopping for golf clubs?

BERMAN: And therein lies the pathology. And I believe that whatever it is that -- that was underlying to begin with is what made him turn to porn so compulsively. There`s clearly something extremely wrong with this guy.

And to be able to go to a basketball game and go shopping after murdering your wife, you have to have some very serious pathology and to be extremely narcissistic to be able to carry that off and not break down. So there is obviously some very, very deep pathology going on with this guy. And the porn was only a symptom of that pathology.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, listen. Millions and millions and millions and millions of American men are hooked on porn. And a lot of them watch it on the computer in a private room after their wife has gone to sleep or while she`s at work, and the wife really has no idea of what the internal life of her husband is. They have become strangers. And if you`re living with a stranger, chances are you`re living with the enemy.

One of the reasons why this story resonates and it`s so important for us to discuss here on ISSUES, where we talk about the war on women, is that intimate partner violence is such a huge problem in this country. So many women are killed by the man who impregnated them, who`s married to them, who was going out with them. And this poor woman we`re looking at here is no exception.

So, to me, why this is so significant, Wendy Murphy, is that so many American men are hooked on porn and watching it secretly, out of the eyeshot of their wives, who have no idea that their husband has become a stranger and is not sharing what is supposed to be the most intimate and personal of human interactions, sexuality, with them in an honest way.

MURPHY: What you just said, Jane, I want you to run for president. I mean, you just said something so incredibly important. It isn`t just that porn, you know, is this dirty little secret. It is destroying relationships.

And men should be angry -- the business of pornography knows that men are addicted and it`s feeding on that. Men should be angry that they`re being used by the business for this bazillion -- I mean, hundreds of billions of dollars are being made on this stuff.

The thing I want people to understand is it -- porn is not a couple of people in bed having intercourse.


MURPHY: That`s what I call erotica. You go to See if you can watch that stuff without vomiting. That`s how bad it is in this country. It`s all about money. Women are dying. And men`s ability to have healthy relationships, as you put it, is being destroyed, and they don`t even know it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely. Because Steve Kardian, once a guy gets hooked on porn, regular vanilla sex, it doesn`t -- it doesn`t do the trick anymore.

KARDIAN: Yes. Jane, it`s amazing. But one of -- one of the biggest reasons for impotency in the United States is males and females not living up to what is -- they`re seeing on porn.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly. Who can? Thank you, everyone.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Fantastic panel!

Kelsey Grammer, you won`t believe the divorce!



DR. JAN GARAVAGLIA, MEDICAL EXAMINER: With regret, I`m here to inform you that the skeletal remains found on December 11 are those of the missing toddler Caylee Anthony. As our usual protocol, the next of kin has been notified prior to making this information public. My examination of the body and evidence is complete.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is the famous Dr. G. And tonight Casey`s dream team is back in court. Can they prove someone other than Casey murdered little Caylee and put the child`s body in the woods where it was then discovered?

Casey`s lawyers claim that medical examiner you just heard from, Dr. G, made a mistake in her autopsy. The defense claims Dr. G neglected to cut open Caylee`s skull.

No comment by deadline from Dr. G herself.

Now, Casey`s team says when their expert did a second autopsy, he found a dirt deposit on the left side of little Caylee`s skull. The defense claims this could challenge what investigators said, namely, that Caylee`s skull was in an upright position. So what`s the big deal? What`s the significance? Is the defense saying, "Well, the skull was placed there in the upright position by somebody who picked the body up after it had already been slumped on its side?" Namely, moved. Was the body moved? Or could the dirt in the skull have simply shifted when the remains were transported to the morgue?

Straight out to bounty hunter Leonard Padilla, who was with Casey and her family during the search for little Caylee.

Leonard, what`s the point the defense is trying to make by saying there`s dirt on the left side of Caylee`s skull?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: I think they`re just trying to introduce another party into it, like they`ve done -- Jose has tried to get people to believe that the body was placed there while Casey was in custody. And anything that he can do towards that end, he`s going to do.

If you are familiar with that particular piece of ground where the body was, you can see that there was a lot of water. There`s a lot of mud, a lot of ferns, and there was even a lot of traffic through there. And I`m going to tell you, if you were standing two foot away from the body, you`d have never found anyhow.

Kronk`s thing about he saw something white, he saw a bag and all those things, that also comes into play, because you don`t know how many people actually traipsed right over the body and didn`t even know that they were on top of it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it was under water. That area was under water.

PADILLA: It was.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Meantime, Casey`s team also says new witnesses will bolster this theory you`ve been mentioning that Caylee`s body was not in the woods while Casey was walking around free. But listen to what Tim Miller, the head of EquuSearch, told me. Listen to this.


TIM MILLER, HEAD OF EQUUSEARCH: We`ve got one real good certified dog handler that searched that area, and on her field activity form states that that area was way under water, that her dog did alert. She felt as though that area needed to be re-searched.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Leonard, there`s been big battle over whether or not these EquuSearch volunteers will be part of the trial. Do you think these new witnesses that the defense has found are these EquuSearch volunteers?

PADILLA: No, no. First of all, you had about 1,400 people out there. A lot of them were untrained volunteers. I myself talked to several of the individuals that were assigned to search in that area, and they`ll tell you the same thing that everybody else is saying, what Tim just said. It was under water.

We`re very familiar with that area, and there was no way that anybody could find anything. Tim himself tipped over a four-wheeler in that area and was afraid that, if he got too far into it, he wouldn`t see -- he`d crush the body if the body was there.

Check with law enforcement records. And they`ll tell you their own horse people that were in that area didn`t enter that, because it was too far under water.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Leonard, got to leave it right there. So good to see you. Wow. Confusion could mean reasonable doubt.

Now, jackpot winner, next.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: A mega scandal. Does the second winner of the $380 million lottery jackpot have a dark secret in her past? We`ll tell you about the 29-year-old mother of two, her estranged husband and her own brushes with the law. You do not want to miss this twisted mega back story.

And superstar Kelsey Grammer`s messy split from wife Camille played out on the "Real Housewives of Beverly Hills". A friend claimed Camille`s famous husband was cheating on her with another woman. Tonight on ISSUES, we ask, is it a friend`s place to blow the whistle on a cheating spouse?

Should you tell your friend if their spouse is cheating? Think about that. We`ll discuss that in a moment.

First, here`s my take on a lotto winner`s very unlucky past.


CURTIS SHARP, 1982 LOTTERY WINNER: If he wants to hit the lottery, the first thing I would tell you to do is take about three weeks off. Take about three weeks off, go somewhere and just cool out and just, you know, and try to figure out what you`re going to do with all this money.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That guy won big. Then unfortunately he lost it all. Hopefully Holly Lahti will not suffer the same fate. For weeks we`ve been wondering where this mystery mega jackpot winner has been hiding.

Well, the 29-year-old Idaho mom who won $190 million may have wanted to keep her past private. Holly has had some trouble with the law, and she`s got the bruised-up mug shot to prove it.

In 2003, both she and her husband apparently had a tumultuous relationship and were both charged with battery.

His rap sheet consists of more than 15 arrests, including 2002 charges of second-degree kidnapping, false imprisonment, domestic battery and assault with a child present, to name a few. That`s when he was tossed in the slammer. Oddly, all of those charges were eventually dropped.

And either one of these folks are invited on our show to discuss their past and set anything they want straight. Now Holly could have to split her fortune with her estranged husband because -- ouch, this has got to hurt -- they may not have gotten legally divorced. Sign that paperwork.

Holly, this is a second chance at life. I`ve got to tell you, not many people get a second chance like this. So here`s my advice. I hope you and your kids take that money and run, even if you have to give him half of all those millions.


CAMILLE GRAMMER, KELSEY GRAMMER`S EX WIFE: I got a phone call from a mutual friend saying something was going to happen. She had heard that, you know, that he wasn`t happy and he was possibly going to leave our marriage.

So I called him and texted him several times. Finally three hours later he called me and told me that he just didn`t want to be married any longer.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, superstar Kelsey Grammer dumps his wife of 13 years. The A-list actor is in the middle of a massive cheating scandal and it has all been caught by reality TV cameras.

55-year-old Kelsey had an affair with a 29-year-old flight attendant. He got her pregnant. She later miscarried and now they`re engaged to be married. But hold on a second. Whoa, something`s -- oh, that`s right. His divorce from his wife isn`t final.

Could his soon-to-be ex-wife have the last laugh? Kelsey`s cheating heart could cost him $50 million. Is Camille taking a cue from Ivana Trump who famously said, "Remember, girls, don`t get mad, get everything."

Camille says a friend tipped her off that Kelsey had a wandering eye and our big question, should you tell a friend if their significant other is in fact cheating?

If there`s one thing we can learn from MTV`s hit show "Jersey Shore", which you know is so educational, besides having how to take a great mug shot, it`s that sometimes when you tell a girlfriend that her man is cheating, well, she wants to kill the messenger.

Listen to this from MTV.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get off. Get off me.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many times did I try tell you that Brian was cheating on you, you (EXPLETIVE DELETED).


VELEZ-MITCHELL: We just had to throw that in -- so much fun. Straight out to A.J. Hammer, host of HLN`s "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT"; you had an explosive one-on-one interview with Camille Grammer, the scorned wife. More clips from that in a moment. But first what`s the very latest in this very messy celebrity divorce, A.J.?

A.J. HAMMER, HLN HOST, "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT": Well, we`re hearing -- and I didn`t find this from the educational show, of course, that we see on MTV "Jersey Shore". But this is educational nonetheless; we`re hearing that she may have, in fact, told a judge that she does not want to allow Kelsey to fast-track this divorce. This is a report coming from TMZ.

Now, she does feel that Kelsey wants to speed up his marriage and deal with all their divorce settlements later. She told that to me in the exclusive interview we had yesterday. She wouldn`t confirm or deny whether she`s asking the judge not to fast-track the divorce.

But yes, this is a woman scorned. This is a woman who was totally blindsided as she told me by Kelsey calling her up on the phone and saying, "Yes, I want to call it off."

She told me also, Jane, that she just learned over the Christmas holiday that a year ago Kelsey had been thinking about calling it off. Of course, it wasn`t until June while she was fully immersed in her "Real Housewives of Beverly Hills" reality show that the divorce in fact got under way and the separation happened.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Married 13 years, you find out on a phone call, "Hey, I want to end it." That is pretty scary.

Blair, Louisiana, your question or thought, ma`am.

BLAIR, LOUISIANA (via telephone): I just think it`s really pathetic and sad that he`s going to throw away a marriage of 13 years for a lady half his age and that nobody`s thinking about the children here. I just think that he`s being really selfish and pathetic. I would definitely -- I agree that a friend should have told Camille, any friend --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Absolutely.

BLAIR: A real friend would tell.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: A good friend tells.

Now Camille says Kelsey, in fact, pushed her to star on Bravo`s "Real Housewives of Beverly Hills" in order to distract her so he could have the affair. The cameras captured their marriage falling apart. Take a look at last night`s episode of the hit Bravo reality show.


GRAMMER: I came to New York City for the Tonys and Kelsey put me up in a hotel suite, and I wasn`t allowed in our apartment.

He might be trading me in for a new model. I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Not going to happen.

GRAMMER: He said, "I finally feel appreciated now I`m that in New York and I`m in this successful play."

How about being with your wife that`s been there by your side for 13- plus years and helped you through a heart attack, your mother`s death? I mean, you know, sobriety? That`s not fulfilling? You don`t feel appreciated? I felt like I didn`t exist.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Shanae Hall, author of "Why Do I Have to Think Like a Man", if what Camille is saying is true, not only did Kelsey cheat on her, but he should have known she`s likely to be confronted with this infidelity while the reality TV cameras are rolling on her. Does that compound her humiliation?

SHANAE HALL, AUTHOR, "WHY DO I HAVE TO THINK LIKE A MAN": It always does. Anytime you get embarrassed in front of the world, it makes anything 100 times worse. So, I mean my heart goes out to her. This is it a very hard time.

But I want her to understand that this, too, shall pass and that there`s somebody else better for you that will love you for the woman that you are. And she doesn`t have to feel bad or settle for the BS that he`s given her. Keep it moving. You will find better out there.

Let him go live his happily ever after, at least that`s what he thinks that it`s going to be and it`s not. She just has to take this with a grain of salt and keep going.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, this too shall pass with the help of possibly $50 million. If we`re going to talk about that, that will help.

HALL: That will help.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. That will help a lot. It kind of soothes.

HALL: It smoothes things over.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Like having a hot bath with a lot of candles lighted, $50 million of them.

Kelsey claimed he wanted people to be kind to Camille. Yes, he wanted people to be kind to Camille. He tweeted, "I ask that you be particularly sensitive to the feelings of my wife. She`s been a terrific partner for many years and should not be treated with any disrespect."

That`s not a very good Kelsey Grammer imitation. But anyway, he goes on CBS`s "The Late Show with David Letterman" and then he says this. Listen to this.


DAVID LETTERMAN, TALK SHOW HOST: It`s a difficult time.


LETTERMAN: Always regardless of circumstances and especially with kids. Are the kids and everybody all right?

K. GRAMMER: The kids seem to be doing ok. We`ve been spending quite a bit of time with them, Kate and I -- Kate`s my new girl. We`re planning to get married soon.

LETTERMAN: How old are the kids? You`re getting married soon?

K. GRAMMER: Sometime in February.

LETTERMAN: Good for you. What are the kids up to?

K. GRAMMER: Thank you.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: He has asked the media to respect Camille, but he`s not even divorced and he`s talking about his new girl on Letterman and how his new girl gets along with the kids.

My head is going to explode, Dr. Jenn Berman. Doesn`t he realize that`s got to be the deepest cut of all for her?

DR. JENN BERMAN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Absolutely and the people who I feel most sorry for in all of this is the kids. It`s horrendous enough as a child to have to go through a divorce, but to do it on national TV, to do it on a reality show and to have your father`s new girlfriend who he cheated on your mom with discussed on "The Late Show", it`s horrific. And to say they`re doing fine? We`ve only just begun.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, A.J., you did this exclusive one-on-one interview with her, but she seemed relatively calm. She didn`t seem super angry.

HAMMER: No, not super angry and in fact, I asked her point blank Jane, "Do you hate Kelsey for what you`ve been through" and certainly that would be understandable. And she says, "No." And in fact, she says that she hopes that they can become friends at some point if for nothing else for the sake of the kids.

She actually has met Kelsey`s new fiancee Kate and said that she`s very nice. So we`ll see where it goes but I think she`s taking the high road with this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Well, she`s a class act.

HAMMER: Still she`s not -- yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hang on there, everyone because on the other side we`re going to play more of A.J.`s interview. We`ve got so much more on Kelsey, Camille and the cheating -- next.


C. GRAMMER: Christmas vacation, you know, few weeks ago and two friends of mine that don`t know each other came to me and told me that Kelsey already told them last Christmas vacation that he was planning --


HAMMER: No kidding.

C. GRAMMER: -- on leaving me.




HAMMER: Do you feel, as -- as I know some people do when they`re going through divorce, yes, I kind of do want to stick it to him a little bit. And quite frankly -- no well, let`s -- let`s be honest -- this is what people go with.

GRAMMER: To be honest, yes of course. I mean, you know. He moved another woman into our apartment in New York and got her pregnant before, you know, I knew anything and then I filed after that.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, the $50 million divorce: A-list actor Kelsey Grammer leaves his wife of more than a decade for a 29-year-old flight attendant. And now it is a war of words between "Real Housewives" star Camille and her cheating soon-to-be ex.

A.J. Hammer, what do we know about how much she could walk away with? I hear that she was a real strong presence in his career. They had a production company. So it`s not like she`s just taking the money for no reason. She also helped him with his fame.

HAMMER: Yes. And she had made claims in the past that she really was the person who helped him along through all of that. They -- they have been married for 13 years, together for 14. So a lot of that obviously included some of the heights of Kelsey Grammer`s career when he was on the show "Frasier".

So she thinks she is going to get a lot, now she talked specifically about that $50 million number, she wouldn`t talk specifically if that is how much money she would be getting per se. But they have a lot of properties involved, they have the home in Malibu, the home in Hawaii, a home in New York City.

I think she`ll do quite well. And she says she expects fully to be comfortable when the dust settles here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Shanae, this is not the first "real housewife" to see their relationship with their man or their marriage implode. Is there some kind of curse about when you make the deal with the devil, so to speak, to be on this "Real Housewives" and kind of expose your life but sort of because it`s all kind of orchestrated to make you look glamorous and beautiful that you pay the ultimate price?

You`ve -- you`ve basically commoditized your relationship and therefore that relationship goes away?

HALL: Well, I don`t think you can blame it 100 percent on reality TV. I`d like to -- I would like to blame it on something.

But I do think it -- it helps to add fuel because people are judging you. That your -- your life is on the line for people to give their opinions about, which is -- a lot of things are personal and you shouldn`t have an opinion on.

But at the end of the day, he made that decision on his own. It didn`t have anything to do with his wife being on reality TV. We -- like you said, another housewife went off -- and -- or a husband went off and did what he did with his ex-girlfriend.

And men just cheat. I mean, they have a tendency -- the more money you make, like I said in my book, the more money you make their options are that much higher.


HAMMER: And I would --

HALL: They have as many options as they have dollars.


HAMMER: And Jane, I would point out this was Kelsey`s third marriage, he`s about to go into his fourth. So do you see some kind of a pattern developing here? Each marriage has been a little longer than the last so maybe this next wife --

HALL: Right.

HAMMER: -- it`ll -- maybe it`ll last forever, maybe it will go on for 15 years.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I was stunned that he`s so eager jumping to the next marriage. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.


HALL: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Kelsey maybe you should -- check out that program. Camille played coy when asked about explosive comments that she made on "The Howard Stern Show". She apparently insinuated Kelsey liked to cross- dress.

A.J. you asked her about this. Let`s listen to that interchange.


HAMMER: In an interview, you insinuated that Kelsey likes to wear women`s clothes, that he`s a cross-dresser. Could -- could you please set the record straight for me on that?

GRAMMER: Well, you know what, we were talking basically about the play "La Cage Aux Folles". I said, as soon as he got the offer, I said, "God, this is such a great role for him." I just knew this would be -- you know it`s -- this would be a perfect role for him.

And then one thing led to another and then all of a sudden Howard and Robin and I were talking about it and making fun, and making a joke of it. But --

HAMMER: This is on "The Howard Stern Show".

GRAMMER: This is of course on "The Howard Stern Show". I`m not going to say that about my husband, you know. I can`t say that about him.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: She`s smiling, saying, I can`t say that about him. What exactly did Camille say in that Howard Stern interview, A.J.?

HAMMER: Well, she sort of retreated a little bit. You know, I listened to the -- the interview on "Howard Stern Show". And Howard is the master at getting the truth out where the subject doesn`t necessarily want to reveal the full truth.

So you`ll have to read into that what you will. But you heard her words that that she said it would be the perfect role for him to be in "La Cage Aux Folles" where he gets to wear women`s clothes. Is there more to it? I don`t know.

Has stuff been out there in the past about Kelsey wanting to wear women`s clothes? There`s been stuff floating around there, but she just wouldn`t confirm it for sure.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, she`s smiling but she`s getting some digs in. This woman may not be screaming, but I think she is mad as hell.

Here`s my big issue tonight -- don`t shoot the messenger. Would you blow the whistle on a cheating spouse? Would you tell a friend if you knew their husband or wife was cheating on them?

It`s something that they actually explore in Vince Vaughn`s new movie "The Dilemma". Take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those plants are poisonous.


I just saw my best friend`s wife with another man.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`ve got to tell him. It`s a guy code, man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Ronnie, where are you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m doing all different kinds of things now with all the nice people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why do you sound like you`re on medication?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`ve got to go right up to him and you`ve got to say it to him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nick, here`s the truth. You`re going to be ok. I love you my man, come here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why is that man hugging himself?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just keep walking.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, I personally, I would tell. When I asked my makeup artist today if she would tell a friend if she knew that that person was being cheated on, she said hell yes.

But we`ve got to go to the expert, psychotherapist Jenn Berman. You know when you get involved in somebody else`s personal life, you never know how it`s going to come and bite you back.

JENN BERMAN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Absolutely and like you said before, oftentimes you shoot the messenger. And -- and also the thing is, a lot of times we don`t really know what goes on between -- even our closest friends` relationships. Sometimes a couple is separated and they were too embarrassed to tell their friends or they have an open relationship.

So I think it is important when you do share the information, which you should. You share it in a way that lets them save face. You know, "Oh, I saw Bob out. Are you guys having some trouble? I noticed him with another woman." As opposed to just "I saw Bob and I couldn`t believe what he was doing."

And it`s important to keep our own emotions, as much as we love our friends and want to protect them, to ourselves so that we can be there for our friend in a difficult moment like that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: A.J., what exactly did Camille say about how she learned and the friends who knew before?

HAMMER: Well, she had said that she had a friend tip her off and that was back in the summertime. Then again, she learned in December from other friends that there was some information a year ago that somebody knew, suggesting that Kelsey wanted the leave her, but that was just recently learned information so that person was holding back, Jane. People take it both ways on this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, boy. Listen, I wish everybody involved the best. They can all come here.

Up next, a victory for animal lovers.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From birth until age 27, Pepper lived in three different laboratories. She was forced to withstand four bone marrow biopsies, 36 punch liver biopsies and 307 knock-downs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Day after day she screamed in terror alone in a cage.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: In tonight`s "Spotlight", the beautiful innocent chimps whose entire lives have been defined by torture, poked, prodded, infected, anesthetized on a daily day all in the same of science. Finally, there`s a reprieve for 186 chimps in New Mexico known as the Alamogordo chimps. A controversial plan to transfer them to another lab for more torturous experiments is now on hold after an uproar of protest.

But it`s only a temporary victory. These chimps desperately need your help. Tell your congress member and senator we don`t want our tax dollars used to torture these highly sensitive, highly intelligent cousins of mankind.

Straight out to Laura Bonar, program director for Animal Protection of New Mexico. Laura, you led the crusade. You are my hero. What have these particular chimps gone through during the course of their lives?


Just one example is Owen. Owen is 44. He has endured over 50 biopsies of his bone marrow, lymph nodes and liver. During one of those, a needle broke off in his bone and was never retrieved.

Owen has been anesthetized over 260 times and that`s a violent procedure where the chimp is shot with dart gun filled with ketamines. Owen has been infected with HIV and hepatitis. And that`s enough. Owen deserves permanent retirement and sanctuary care.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Here is my call to action. Join the fight to end these chimps` decades of suffering. Go to; for details on how you can help the Alamogordo chimps.

The government officials who endorse this inhumane research need to hear from all of us. Now, also the great protection act, the Great Ape Protection Act, the Great Ape Protection Act is gathering support. It would ban all invasive research on chimps.

And a growing number of scientists say chimp research is actually holding back medical progress because it`s getting all the research money that should be focused on more sophisticated, cutting edge research methods like research on the sub-molecular level.

Why do you feel, Laura, that chimp research is just plain wrong?

BONAR: Well, everything we know about chimpanzees now, you know, it`s a lot like looking in the mirror. Chimpanzees are sensitive, intelligent individuals and it`s morally wrong to inflict pain and suffering on a sentient being. But also, chimp research, you know, for 40 years, the U.S. government has been trying to develop a vaccine for hepatitis C with chimps. And the reason it`s not working is that chimps are different from us on a genetic level, their immune systems.

Taxpayers can save money by permanently retiring these chimpanzees and providing them with sanctuary care and we can end this chapter in our history.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: When you want to punish a human being, you put them in isolation, solitary confinement. These poor animals have spent decades in solitary confinement in these cages, rocking back and forth. These are some of the things that they do -- spinning, because they are alone. It is torture.

Then the additional torture of them being experimented on, we know that they anticipate the next torture session and they become absolutely terrified and filled with anxiety. Enough. Enough. It`s the 21st century.

Thank you so much. Help the chimps.