Return to Transcripts main page


Doctor Arrested for Illegal Late-Term Abortions; Woman Kidnapped as Baby Reunited with Parents

Aired January 20, 2011 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, a miracle end to a hellish 23-year nightmare with an emotional reunion. Her devastated parents hunted fruitlessly for their baby girl for two decades. The grown daughter long suspects her so-called mom is a fake. Now a shocking breakthrough. Will the woman who raised her be headed to jail?

Also, a blood-curdling discovery in Philadelphia. Police uncover a house of horrors. An unlicensed doctor accused of murdering up to 100 babies who were already breathing. You won`t believe the gruesome, horrific details. But the big question: despite so many complaints, why did this go on for so long?

Plus, Octomom lowers the bar of motherhood again. A new fetish video surfaces, showing Octomom whipping a grown man dressed in diapers. Is this kinky bondage scenario one more emotional scar for her children?

ISSUES starts now.



SETH WILLIAMS, DISTRICT ATTORNEY: This was a doctor giving medicine that would induce the labor. The women would have the babies. The babies would squirm, would cry like any baby born. Then this doctor would perform a procedure...


VELEZ-MITCHELL: We won`t even air what that man said next. It`s simply too gruesome. That was Philadelphia`s district attorney, describing what happened to precious, tiny babies, newborns, inside one of doctor`s house of horrors.

Kermit Gosnell was arraigned today, accused of murdering at least one mom and seven newborns during illegal abortions. Investigators say he got away with this for years and years and years. Why? Why didn`t anybody do anything? All those years?

Let me be clear. This is not a story about abortion, no matter how feel about that lightning-rod issue. We can all agree tonight, this is a story about cold, calculated murder.

Police got tips that Gosnell was illegally dealing OxyContin and other narcotics. So they raided his clinic, and when they did, they were absolutely stunned and revolted, nauseated by what they discovered.


WILLIAMS: When this search warrant was executed, there were jars and jars and jars of severed feet that this doctor kept. He kept pictures of the women`s genitalia. There was fetuses and body parts in bags all over this building. And even in the same refrigerator that the staff had their lunch in.



A grand jury found that Gosnell killed hundreds of babies born alive during the sixth, seventh, and eighth month of pregnancy by serving their spinal cords.

This monster is also charged with murdering 41-year-old mom Karnamaya Mongar. She died in 2009 after being given too much anesthesia. A teenage boy allegedly administered the drugs in Gosnell`s clinic, while the doctor was giving him instructions over the telephone. A teenage boy. That woman died.

Joining me tonight, Bernie Smalley, the attorney who filed a lawsuit on behalf of the dead victim`s family.

First of all, sir, your reaction. Thank you for joining us. Your reaction to the breaking news that this so-called doctor is finally, after all these years, being charged with multiple murders.

BERNARD SMALLEY, ATTORNEY FOR MONGAR`S FAMILY: Well, first, good evening, as well. Thank you for having me.

It is good news at last. I first came into contact with Dr. Gosnell almost 20 years ago when I represented another patient of his who also suffered through the agony of a -- what I would consider to be gross malpractice.

Now, fast forwarding to 2010, this family coming from a land of Nepal after living in a refugee camp for 18 years, she`s here for only six months. She gets referred to Dr. Gosnell. She`s 19 months [SIC] pregnant, new to this country and she dies at his hands for three reasons.

No. 1, as you indicated in your opening, there are an unlicensed teenager, high-school student, with no training whatsoever, administering medications, getting instructions from Dr. Gosnell over the phone. He`s not present.

During the course of the procedure when he is present, there is nothing to monitor her vital signs, so when she gets in trouble, he doesn`t know it until it`s too late.

Worse than that, when there was -- when there was an opportunity to resuscitate, the equipment necessary for resuscitation was not present. He...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ve got to jump in for one second and go to David Gambacorta, reporter with the "Philadelphia Daily News." I`ve heard this guy described as a doctor, an unlicensed doctor, a so-called doctor. What on earth was this man?

DAVID GAMBACORTA, REPORTER, "PHILADELPHIA DAILY NEWS": Well, he was a doctor. He had got his license in Philadelphia in Pennsylvania in 1969. But what`s clear now and what we`ve reported on, is that somewhere along the way something went very wrong with Kermit Gosnell`s practice. And scores of women suffered horrific complications from their abortions, and what we learned yesterday is that hundreds of babies were murdered at his hands.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the doctor allegedly took advantage of the most vulnerable of mothers. Very poor, mostly minority, desperate, and apparently unaware of what they were walking into. Check this out.


WILLIAMS: Untrained, unsupervised workers injected dangerous drugs into women undergoing illegal late-term abortions.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ve got to go back to Bernard Smalley. You`re the attorney for the family of the woman who died.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now you say you`ve been aware of this guy for 20 years. Why didn`t somebody go to the police and say, "Hey, call 911. There`s blood all over the floor. This guy doesn`t know what he`s doing. People are keeling over." Why didn`t somebody call the cops and this guy get arrested a long time ago?

SMALLEY: Well, you know, that is one of the -- one of the penetrating questions that has to be answered. It certainly will be answered during the discovery in the civil lawsuit that we have brought as of yesterday against Dr. Gosnell and against his -- his practice.

What happened in the ensuing 20 years from the time that I first sued him and the time that I sued him as of yesterday, I can`t answer that question. But I`m certainly going to get answers, and I believe the grand jury...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask you this.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: When the woman died who you`re representing her family, when she died, did they go to the cops? Did they say, "Hey, there was a teenager giving sedation to this woman. She died. This was botched incredibly"? Did you go to the cops?

SMALLEY: Here`s what happened based on what we know. We know that immediately before this incident -- I shouldn`t say immediately -- there was a raid on Dr. Gosnell`s office. But not for the purposes of looking at late-term abortions or abortions being performed, or aided by unlicensed workers. It was because of allegations of -- of pills being sold illegally.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on. Did you go your kid -- your client`s family go to the cops when she turns up dead?

SMALLEY: Here`s what -- my clients -- my clients...


SMALLEY: Who was here -- well, did they go to the cops? They were taken by fire/rescue to the -- to the hospital at the University of Pennsylvania. At that point in time, it was determined that there was enough there, and ultimately, the death certificate said homicide. Homicide listed on the death certificate was not released until the day of the grand-jury presentment.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Gil Alba -- sorry. Former NYPD detective, I think you know what I`m getting at here. OK?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`ve got 100 babies...

ALBA: That`s psycho.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... whose spinal cords were severed, and apparently, nobody is going to the cops? There`s blood all over the floor?

ALBA: You know, that`s outrageous. But depending on what kind of neighborhood this is, these women go there for a reason. This guy is supposedly respectable. I`m sure he goes home, and everybody thinks he`s a big-time doctor. Nobody knows what he`s doing behind closed doors.

And these people are not ones to really complain about what happened. Or what he`s doing. He`s got the workers. He`s paying them fairly. I would say he`s paying them, he`s giving them jobs. So everything is going along just right.

Should have somebody complained about something out of this for 20 years? This is outrageous. All these people, all these babies getting killed. And I`m sure that`s not the only woman that died under his hands.

So, you know, once the police got it, they -- they took advantage of it and thank God that they saw everything that was going on at the time.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Excuse me. I don`t buy it. I don`t buy it at all.

Here`s my big issue: getting away with murder. How many people turned a blind eye to this sicko`s alleged crimes? Way back in 1999, documents show one of his patients was rushed to the hospital after a botched abortion in his clinic. Doctors found her child`s arm and leg still inside her body. Did those doctors and nurses call the cops? I have to assume that maybe they didn`t.

OK. The horrors inside that clinic continued for years. Why? Listen to this.


WILLIAMS: There are two primary state agencies with oversight: the Department of Health and the Department of State, which licenses attorneys. What the jury found most troubling is that neither of those agencies took the time to investigate, to observe, to view, to go to the clinic itself since 1993.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Cathleen London. You are a top-flight physician, assistant professor of medicine, New York-Presbyterian, Weill Cornell. How could -- how could a woman go to the hospital, they find an arm and a leg of her fetus inside her, and the cops not be called?

DR. CATHLEEN LONDON, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE: Well, if it was a complication -- they didn`t know what this was coming from. So they`re being -- they`re receiving this patient in the emergency room, coming from a clinic. They don`t know that it`s somebody -- you know, I can`t even put this into the, as you said, into the whole abortion debate or anything else. What this man did was -- was beyond anything that goes through that.

So what they`re seeing is somebody is coming in who went for a late termination. They can`t tell necessarily the gestational age or anything else. So they`re taking care of her. They`re looking at it as a complication on the outside.

Now should that have been occurring at all in a facility like that? Absolutely not. And why the state board of medicine didn`t do anything, I`m horrified by it. But that`s a state -- I don`t know the laws in Pennsylvania.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re going to get to that in a second. What I`m reading is racism and politics has something to do with it.

Christy, Nebraska, your thought or question, ma`am.

CALLER: I`m going to ask a question on TV.


CALLER: My voice is going to be on TV.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Your voice is on TV. I`ve got to tell you that, Christy. OK. Christy`s telling her whole family how she`s going to be on TV. Christy, your question or thought, ma`am?

CALLER: Hi, Jane.


CALLER: Thank you so much for everything you do. I really appreciate that. I do have a comment and a question.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, give me your comment.

CALLER: The comment is, OK. This is an abortion doctor. What surprises people about this? I mean, what`s the difference between killing a baby before it`s born or right after? My question is, don`t these doctors have to be warped after killing babies day after day?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me -- let me just say this. And we`re going to say it again. This is not a debate on the abortion issue. This - - everybody can agree here that this, whether you`re in favor or against, this is about murder charges, because these babies -- go ahead.

LONDON: This is sick.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead. Go ahead, Doctor.

LONDON: This is beyond that. He had jars with parts in it there. That`s a psychopath. That`s not -- this has nothing to do with abortion.

You know, he took advantage of a population that was desperate. But, you know, when you keep parts around in refrigerators, in jars, that`s horrific. You know, when the floors are covered in blood. That -- this has nothing to do with any kind of reproductive services.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second. Tonight and for the next ten weeks, Nancy Grace is on a mission to find America`s missing. Help find 50 people over the next 50 days. That`s in the second hour of "NANCY GRACE," 9 p.m. Eastern right here on HLN.

Thank you, fabulous panel, for discussing that.

Octomom releasing an unbelievable new fetish video. She is whipping a guy who is in a diaper. We`re going to show it to you, coming up.

Also coming up, a devastating kidnapping tears apart a beautiful new family. And now a miracle ends their hellish two-decade-long nightmare. We`re taking your calls on this amazing story: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. She solved her own kidnapping.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I knew she was coming back one day. Twenty- three years later, she`s back.




PAT CONWAY, CARLINA`S GODMOTHER: She was a missing link, and we have gotten her back. In the name of Jesus, hallelujah, hallelujah!


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hallelujah! Take a look at it, making headlines around the country. Found!

Tonight, mind-blowing breaking news. A baby girl kidnapped 23 years ago is finally back with her parents. And get this: she solved her own kidnapping. She found her own photo on, confronted the woman who was posing as her mom -- mom, who admitted she was not her mom.

But is this the woman who actually kidnapped her? This fake mom? We don`t know that yet.

Now here`s the missing baby, all grown up. Carlina White, reunited with her parents in New York. Carlina White was snatched from a Harlem hospital when she was only 19 days old. Her parents say Carlina was sick, so they handed her over to a woman they thought was a nurse. But the nurse was a fake, and she took off with baby Carlina.

Now here`s Carlina`s mom, begging for her daughter`s return all those many years ago.


JOY WHITE, CARLIN`S BIOLOGICAL MOM: I hope she`s all right. I hope to God she`s taking good care of my baby.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That poor woman.

Her parents went through 23 years of hell searching for their little girl.

Carlina was whisked away to Connecticut and given a new identity. But here`s the amazing part. As the years past, Carlina started getting a gut feeling the woman she called Mom might not be her mom. And guess what? She was right.

I`m taking your calls on this one. Extraordinary. 1-877-JVM-SAYS.

Straight out to Ernie Allen, president and CEO of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

Ernie, first of all, an honor to have you on tonight. You`re one of my heroes.

Carlina found out who she was when she looked at her photo on your Web site. Tell us what you know about this amazing discovery.

ERNIE ALLEN, PRESIDENT/CEO, NATIONAL CENTER FOR MISSING AND EXPLOITED CHILDREN: Well, first, Jane, it really is a miracle. But miracles happen when smart, aggressive, tenacious people make them happen.

She not only went to our Web site; she called our hotline on December 22. She said to our case workers, "I think I might be a missing person. There`s something wrong. I`m not sure I know who I am." We worked with her, took all the facts, put the pieces together, worked with the New York Police Department, who interviewed her, did DNA tests. The DNA tests confirmed that this was, in fact, that 3-year -- 3-week-old missing child abducted in 1987. It is an extraordinary story.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, kudos to you and your organization and your Web site, doing such important work.

Imagine, going on the Missing Kids Web site and finding your own photo. Now, here`s what Carlina saw. An online poster with a baby photo, along with an age progression photo predicting what she might look like as she grew up.

Well, she apparently pulled out a baby photo that she had in her possession from her new identity, and then compared the two, and it matched up. That, to me, is absolutely astounding.

Ernie, how does that work? Tell me about that, the age progression. That`s fascinating to me.

ALLEN: Jane, we know that it doesn`t do much good to circulate the photograph of a 3-week-old child if she`s now 10 or 15 or 20. So our forensic artists use family photos. We lean heavily on heredity. It`s half art, half science to create an image of what we think the child looks like today.

Using that technology, we have found more than a thousand children, each one of them missing more than two years.


ALLEN: The intent is to say to the public, "This is probably what she looks like. If you know something, call us."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ve got to go to Pamela Slaton. Now, you were adopted, and you are currently the host of "Searching For," which is coming up in 2011, this year, on Oprah Winfrey`s network, own. So congratulations on that. I hear you had a hellish experience, though, when you tried to find your birth parents.

PAMELA SLATON, HOST, OWN`S "SEARCHING FOR": I did have a hellish experience. However, from that, an amazing career was born. And the moment that we see Carlina meeting up with her birth parents for the first time is what I live for. It`s so amazing to reunite people who are hurting for years and years and years.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`ve got to say, this is a fascinating story. We`re going to have a little bit more of it. So hang in there. How did they determine who kidnapped her?



CONWAY: Carlina was a missing link, and we have gotten her back. In the name of Jesus, hallelujah, hallelujah!

ELIZABETH WHITE, CARLINA`S GRANDMOTHER: She was just -- just like she`s been around us all our lives. She was no stranger. She was just, you know, just fit right in.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Breaking news tonight. A woman kidnapped 23 years ago solves her own kidnapping and is reunited with her parents. Her aunt is absolutely ecstatic. Listen to this.


LISA WHITE HEATLEY, CARLINA`S AUNT: She called me and told me, she said -- she told me they said they might have found Carlina. And they e- mailed her some pictures and she started screaming. She`s like, "I`m going to text you these pictures right now." And she texted it to me, and I said, "That`s her. Oh, my God. That`s her." And I just started crying.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now "The New York Post" is reporting Carlina says the woman she lived with and thought was her mother, but had doubts, abused her, which brings me to my big issue. Who`s going to pay? And how are they going to figure out who actually kidnapped her way back in 1987? Just because she grew up with this woman doesn`t mean that they can automatically say that this woman kidnapped her, Gil Alba. That other woman, the fake mother, has not been arrested, Gil.

ALBA: No. They`re still looking for her. And -- but you know what? You know, she`s been living in Connecticut for a period of time. I think they could trace back, you know, where she paid for rent, where she paid for her electricity, and check all her bills and check all her friends and relatives and go back and start from that person. And I think eventually, they`re going to find out who the mother was.

Now, who kidnapped her may be a totally different story.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: They know who the mother was. She was reunited with her mother.

ALBA: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re trying to figure out who kidnapped the child.

ALBA: Who kidnapped her, right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And is it her fake mother who raised her? Or maybe somebody gave her to the fake mother. That`s what I`m saying.

ALBA: Yes, no, definitely. Somebody gave her -- it`s a possibility somebody took the baby from the Harlem hospital and gave to it somebody else. And I`m saying they can trace that person that she lived with all those years in Connecticut and go back and check on their records and start from that. And I`m sure they`re going to backlog that and to find out that it`s a possibility who actually took her.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jessica, Canada, your question or thought, ma`am? Jessica?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Your question or thought, ma`am.

CALLER: I was just wishing all the best to this family. It happened to me, and it isn`t always good ending.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You were adopted, and you found your family?

CALLER: No, I was not. My father had a child before he married my mom. And I never knew. And she didn`t know. So I only found her two years ago. And I was 62, 63 then. And she`s in her 70s. And we found each other. It is really amazing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me get -- it`s amazing. Ernie Allen, is there kind of a conflicted loyalty here? This woman, even though she`s absolutely joyous to find her real parents, has got to have some kind of loyalty to this woman who raised her, at least maybe subconsciously?

ALLEN: Well, these reunifications are difficult. And you have to take them a step at a time.

All indications, however, is that this has been a long time coming. Carlina knew that there was something wrong, and she reached out. She took steps. So we are very hopeful. She`s young. She has her whole life in front of her. Her birth parents are rejoicing at this. We think this is going to be a good news story.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It already is. Thank you, Ernie. Please come back soon. We love you.

Thank you, panel.

Hollywood shocker. Sandra Bullock`s ex- getting married again.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Octomom lowers the bar of motherhood again. A new fetish video surfaces showing Octomom whipping a grown man dressed in diapers. Is this kinky bondage scenario one more emotional scar for her children?


SANDRA BULLOCK, ACTRESS: -- was the best. The rest of it is icing on the cake. It is just a beautiful group effort and about a beautiful story that needs to be told. It got told and we were lucky enough to be at the Oscars.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I love Sandra Bullock. Tonight, less than a year after breaking Sandra`s heart, Jesse has an announcement for all of us. He is engaged again.

The tattooed biker who cheated on America`s sweetheart reportedly with a slew of women says he`s going to walk down the aisle again and recite those vows. What woman actually thinks he`s going to keep those vows? Jesse plans to say "I do" to lucky lady Kat Von D, a tattoo artist and TLC reality TV star. Kat was recently spotted on the Red Carpet wearing a big sparkler on her inked up hand. That`s right.

Jesse confirms she said yes. Jesse says, quote, "Despite what people think, 2010 was the best year of my life because I fell in love with my best friend," end quote. I don`t know if he sounds like that.

Anyway, really, Jesse, do you expect us to buy that? Losing Sandra, losing your brand new adopted baby boy and having multiple mistresses come forward airing your very dirty laundry and that is the best year of your life?

I guess Jesse has fully given up on his original plan to win Sandra back. Remember this tearful, remorseful, poor me interview?

Listen to this from ABC "Nightline".


JESSE JAMES, SANDRA BULLOCK`S FORMER HUSBAND: I never in a million years -- the last person I would ever want to hurt or harm is her or the kids. But the most hurt she`s ever been caused is by the person that wanted to protect her. So it`s really -- it`s terrible. And she`s going to be hurt for a long time, you know.

I don`t know. It is hard for me to talk about it a little bit because, you know, I still really love her and care about her.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, one thing is for sure. Superstars aside, Jesse certainly has a type. Kat Von D looks an awful lot like Michelle "Bombshell" McGee. Hey, that rhymes.

McGee is the mistress at the center of the scandal that ended his marriage to Sandra Bullock. It is one thing to move on, it is another thing to say the year you cheated on your famous wife is the best year of your life. Shame on you, Jesse, especially after Sandra was so gracious and understanding when you checked into rehab for, let`s see, could it be possibly sex addiction?

Straight out to Dylan Howard, senior executive with; Dylan, what is the very latest with this tattooed duo?

DYLAN HOWARD, SENIOR EXECUTIVE, RADARONLINE: Jane, Hollywood is shaking their head on this shame scale, this is an all-time low. Twelve months ago, Sandra Bullock stood on the biggest stage in Hollywood and declared what a great influence Jesse James had been on her. Twelve months later, the ultimate slap in the face; he says that the year in which he broke up their family, caused so much heart ache, he says was the best year in his life.

I`ve never quite seen a Hollywood scandal quite like this; the gumption of this man to come out and say that and to make a proposal during awards season; almost 12 months to the day when Sandra Bullock teared up on stage and said that.

Just shocking stuff.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re right. It`s almost -- has it been a year since we started talking about this guy? Oh, my gosh.

Michelle "Bombshell" McGee was, of course, the stripper who blew Jesse`s cover and she joined us right here on ISSUES a while back. Listen to her.


MICHELLE "BOMBSHELL" MCGEE, JESSE JAMES FORMER MISTRESS: I did know he was married to Sandra at the time. When I went to go visit him, we had a discussion and he said he was separated. He was a separated man. She lived in Austin; he lives in Long Beach. They weren`t together.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you bought it.

MCGEE: I did. I bought it. He looked me dead in the eye and told me that so I believed him.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, Chloe Melas, senior reporter of, this mistress is saying he lied to her saying he was separated when he wasn`t. Why does Kat Von D think he won`t do the same thing to her?

CHLOE MELAS, SENIOR REPORTER, HOLLYWOODLIFE.COM: Exactly; our readers at are saying once a cheater, always a cheater. The ink hasn`t even dried on their divorce papers with Sandra Bullock, Kat Von D is out sporting her new four-karat Neil Lane diamond engagement ring right. And everybody is wondering, what is she thinking coming out publicly and talking about her love for Jesse James? And he is saying that this was the best year of his life? And that she is the best woman he has ever met?

Let me tell you, Sandra Bullock has donated millions of dollars to the Red Cross, let alone getting standing ovations at schools in New Orleans for raising money after hurricane Katrina. And he says that Kat Von D is the best person that he`s ever met? I think he needs to think again.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I agree. And here`s my theory about this whole thing. It is also my big issue -- success syndrome. How does a man who feels overshadowed by his wife because she is so successful, so beautiful, so incredibly talented, so rich -- an estimated fortune of over $80 million. How does a husband of a superstar like that compensate for feelings of inadequacy? By cheating.

Remember, the scandal broke right after -- as you heard Dylan say -- she won an academy award for her amazing performance in "The Blind Side".

Check this out.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re in the middle of a practice.

BULLOCK: You can thank me later.

Do you remember when we first met, we went to that horrible part of town to buy those dreadful clothes? And I was a little scared and you told me not to worry about it because you had my back. Do you remember that?


BULLOCK: This team is your family. You have to protect them.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So Vikki Ziegler, you`re a family law attorney. You see so many of these cases. She`s winning academy awards; worth I don`t know how many untold millions. He`s doing "Monster Garage" where he is like re-souping up motorcycles. You get my drift?

VIKKI ZIEGLER, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Jane this is -- I very much do. It shocks me. I must tell you. As a divorce attorney, statistics are very interesting. I think this is going to be his fourth marriage. They stop looking at statistics for divorce after the third. And they basically say 74 percent of the people that get married for the third time get divorced.

Jesse James and people like him keep me in business. A couple of words come to mind -- womanizer, a guy that lacks judgment, probably a little unstable. One minute he is losing his best friend, Sandra Bullock, America`s sweetheart. The next thing, he found his new best friend.

I mean I think it`s ludicrous, poor judgment. He has children. He should be showing better judgment in this circumstance and I guarantee I`ll be on the show talking about his new divorce one of these days.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist, it does seem that men sometimes feel emasculated when their wife is extraordinarily successful and feel they need to compensate and show their masculinity in some other area by conquest. Let`s face it.

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, that`s true. But he also knew who he was marrying when he met Sandra Bullock. It`s not like she all of a sudden became successful. We don`t know if the cheating was because he somehow felt intimidated or inferior, or if this is just who this guy is.

There are some men who really believe they are not meant to be monogamous. And there are some women who accept that about the men that they date. Is that the case in Jesse James` situation? Maybe yes, maybe no. But I think it says a lot about his character, or lack thereof, even if he felt this is the best year of his life, which I highly doubt, to say it under the circumstances is just such poor judgment and truly unkind.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you have to represent the male gender here, Dylan Howard. That`s a tough job with all these strong women that you`re facing. But I have to ask you about the kids involved in all this because that`s what really gets me. He has a daughter, Sonny, that I read was very, very attached to Sandra. And she, of course, while she was with him adopted this beautiful baby boy that she took with her when she found out about the cheating. So what is going to happen to those kids?

HOWARD: I mean, the baby has been -- Louie has been living a very secluded lifestyle from Jesse James even though he was involved very early on in the adoption process. Sonny, you`ve got to feel for the kids in this.

Here you have Sonny who`s torn between Jesse James` former wife Janine Lindemulder as well. And those pair are duking it out on court almost on a weekly basis. So she is torn between her birth mother, Sandra Bullock, and now she`s going to have another stepmother.

Now, you asked about defending the male race. I`m sorry. You can`t defend the indefensible. Here you have someone who says he loves Sandra Bullock. I`m ashamed. I really am quite ashamed to think that a male could treat someone who he says he loves, and he said that in an interview recently about Sandra Bullock, that he could treat someone like this. It`s just shocking.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Can you say cad?

Lisa, Tennessee, your question or thought, Lisa.

LISA, TENNESSEE (via telephone): I just think that Sandra Bullock ought to thank Kat D every day. She doesn`t want a man like Jesse James anyway. From the beginning, thank her every day because that`s the kind of trash he deserves.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen, I agree with you. She got away just in the nick of time.

Jesse says he fell in love with Kat because the world turned its back on him, Kat stood behind him. But If I remember correctly, didn`t Jesse follow Sandra? When Sandra left him and moved to Texas, didn`t he also move to Texas, Chloe, kind of following her? I`m kind of guessing that maybe she said, I don`t want anything to do with you. And that`s when you know, he --

MELAS: Exactly. So, you know, Sandra Bullock goes to seek refuge in her native Austin where she loves to just go and just be herself. What does Jesse James do after that he publicly cries on "Nightline" saying that he is going to win America`s sweetheart back. He goes and follows her. Gets a house pretty much right down the road from her.

And now what? He`s going to bring Kat Von D down there? His fourth potential wife down there to live near Sandra Bullock? It is awful. The women, our readers at, they`re absolutely enraged. I mean he is doing nothing to steer clear of this bad boy/cheater image that he has created for himself, by himself.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ve got to say, Jesse, sometimes it is better to say nothing. If you really want to marry Kat Von D, do it. But did you have to say that 2010 was the best year of your life, dude? Ok. Ride off into the sunset on one of those motorcycles.

Thank you so much, fantastic panel.

Why was this YouTube sensation in court today? I`m going to have the details. You won`t believe her -- octomom making fetish films. We`re going to show you.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Octomom releases a shocking fetish tape. It`s kinky. That piece of work in a minute but first, "Top of the Block" tonight.

Does this YouTube sensation have a criminal past? Cathy Marrero (ph) seen here in this YouTube video has become an Internet sensation after being caught on tape falling into a fountain while texting. You can watch this all day long. It`s hysterical. Let`s see her one more time. Ok.

Marrero says she is upset that no one came to her aid. There she goes. Listen to this from "Good Morning America".


CATHY CRUZ MARRERO, YOUTUBE SENSATION: Nobody called. Are you ok? It shows in the video, nobody went to my aid.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Marrero attorney says she is looking into pressing charges against the person that released this video. However in the bizarre twist, this apparently is not Marrero`s first trip to court. She is accused of five felonies, including theft by deception and receiving stolen property. So maybe she can use her newfound fame to pay her legal bills maybe. Or get a new iPhone. That one probably got a little bit wet.

That`s tonight`s "Top of the Block".


NADYA SULEMAN, OCTOMOM: How are you today? Not again. Are you going to cry again?

What do you want?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do want a spanky.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, octomom strike again. Literally. She`s whipping up a scandal -- whipping, get it -- as the star of a sick new fetish video that gives a whole new meaning to getting a bang for your buck. Shield your eyes but kind look a little bit.

Octomom, dressed as a sexy dominatrix whips a grown man wearing a diaper and holding a rattle. I mean really. It`s basically one step away from -- well, you do the math on that one. Is there anything this woman won`t do for a little cash and a splash of attention?

I have to warn you, you will not know whether to laugh or cry. Here`s what we can show you on TV. Check this out.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Spanky, spanky. Spanky, spanky. I do want spanky.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: This guy in the adult diaper is apparently a radio show host named Tattoo. The most disturbing part, this was all shot in her kids` playroom, in their ball pit. Get it? Ball pit. You cannot make this up. What are her 14 children doing while mom is playing kinky role playing on camera?

Tonight should her kids -- and this is a serious question -- be taken away from her?

We`re talking to famed child advocate/attorney Gloria Allred live in a moment. First to my good buddy, Mike Walters, managing editor of TMZ; Mike, what can you tell us about this video and why the heck she did it?

MIKE WALTERS, MANAGING EDITOR, TMZ: Well, I mean that`s the point, Jane, is why would she do this? Remember she has gotten offers from huge porn companies, from people wanting her to endorse products. And she decides to do none of it and do this video with the radio personality which is unbelievable. You guys just saw. I mean it is a shade away from you know what, like you said.

I can tell you, I talked to Nadya today. I called her because once I saw this video and we put it up, I said I have to know why she did this. So I called her and she said you know what? She`s desperate. She has $300 to her name. Somebody came in and convinced her to do it.

She said, look, it was stupid. It was irresponsible. I have to now, you know, deal with my choices. But she said, look, I mean the fact is the only way that I make money right now, she says, is through interviews with the tabloids, with people out of the country like Japan and Germany. This is the only way she`s paying for her mortgage. And right now she`s got a $450,000 balloon payment due on her house that she can`t pay.

So it was one of those moments where she decided to do this. And look, whether it was the right decision or not, you guys be the judge. You saw it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And apparently the guy, Tattoo, is claiming this was a joke and she didn`t make any money off it reportedly. That makes it even crazier if she did not make money. Mike Walters, what? Very quickly. Tell us that.

WALTERS: She claims that he told her that and said, look, let`s spoof all these people wanting you to do porn and just make fun of it. The problem is it came off like a fetish video and it looks like a real porn fetish video. So I don`t think that worked. And she claims she got duped.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right Mike. Always great to see you; doing great work out there in Lala-land.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: How octomom shot this video in her own house. She whipped her man baby as he scampered around. Look. He is on the rocking horse there. He goes into their ball pen. He sat with his adult diapers all over the kids` place.

Now social workers could reportedly investigate her and try to take her kids away. It would be traumatizing if they saw this. Check this out.



SULEMAN: Ok. Good. I think it`s nap time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I really like baba.

SULEMAN: Nap time.


SULEMAN: I think you`re tired. It`s time to go take a nap? I`ll tuck you in.


SULEMAN: Nappy time. Octomom will tuck you in.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Gloria Allred, you`re a victims` rights attorney. You`ve tangled with octomom in the past. Can social workers use this to take her kids away? Lots of porn stars have kids in Los Angeles.

Half the population of the valley would be moving out -- I shouldn`t say that, that`s a joke. I have so many friends in the valley, don`t get mad at me, don`t send me hate mail. But you know what I`m saying. Can they use this as an example to take the kids away?

GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ATTORNEY: No, not just this alone, Jane, because there are standards in the law, and basically you`d have to show abuse, abandonment, neglect and act of cruelty against the children. And this is none of those. And no, not based on this alone.

But is it bad taste? Is it bad judgment? Absolutely it is. And I can`t -- you know, I can`t buy this argument, if in fact she said to TMZ what Mr. Walters from TMZ just said, that basically, you know, she wasn`t really -- in a sense sorry she did it, or didn`t know what she was doing, or something to that effect, whatever it was that she said. I have a hard time buying that, because I know she has an attorney.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We can`t figure it out.

More in a second.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, octomom goes dominatrix for a new video shot in her home. That was the guy who played her man baby. There he is -- ok much better. We`ve got the video. Dressed in a black bustier, she is whipping a grown man dressed up like a baby and has a diaper on.

All right.

This is really, I think, we can all agree, in poor taste. In fact, Nadia herself, through her lawyer made this statement. Her lawyer issued this statement, "The baby-whipping video just released by TMZ was filmed as a joke by Nadya. I personally had nothing to do with it and find it disgusting, unfunny, bizarre and plain dumb. I believe Nadya was somewhat tricked into filming the video and I know for certain she no longer believes the video was worth a laugh and deeply regrets her actions."

Gloria Allred, do you buy that explanation that this was a joke and now she deeply regrets her actions?

ALLRED: Yes, well, it`s interesting. As a lawyer, he even wants to distance himself from his own client which is very unusual. It concerns me, too.

What is Nadya thinking? Is she trying to send a message to parents in America that somehow they should whip babies if they`re crying? If so, that`s the wrong message. And nobody should repeat that. I hope nobody goes out and buys this if in fact it`s for sale.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ve got a caller. Lynn, I don`t know what state you`re from, tell us what`s your question or thought? Indiana.

LYNN, INDIANA (via telephone): Yes. I was wondering, I had heard that it was filmed in her home.


LYNN: Is that her children`s toys that they were --


LYNN: Well, what kind of message is she sending out now?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is my whole objection to all of this. This woman is now justifying all her behavior saying, I can do anything for cash, because I`ve got 14 hungry mouths to feed. She should have thought of that before she had 14 kids.

This woman was unemployed, living with her parents, and had a ton of debt when she had the kids. After having six kids -- three of them were disabled -- she proceeded to have eight more kids, for a total of 14.

Vikki Ziegler, now she`s justifying anything and everything saying, well, I`ve got to feed my kids. And we don`t even know if she made a good buck off of this. I mean, it`s really crazy self-destructive behavior.

ZIEGLER: It is. I think she needs a psychiatric evaluation. Clearly there`s some real problems here. She`s very challenged and she`s the one raising 14 children. I think it`s really -- it`s ludicrous, that video, I`m telling you, is traumatic. I keep watching it over and over again. I`ve been here for a few hours.

And I am horrified at that kind of behavior. Thank God the children were not there, were not at the home watching it, or possibly heard these screams, these whips.

I mean, this is crazy. She`s a mother. She`s supposed to be a role model. I don`t buy that she needs to make money and put food on the table. Then have some morality, have some decency. There are so many other ways she could have made money. Write a book, do a tell-all. Do an exclusive Jane.

You know that. She`s got to make smarter decisions here or she may lose her children one day.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But here`s the problem, Gloria, and we`ve got to wrap it here, she was going to have a reality show that didn`t pan out. Somehow nothing is really panning out for this woman, except these really questionable deals. And I`ve got to ask why. I feel so sorry for those 14 kids.

Thank you, Gloria.

ALLRED: Thank you.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell. Thanks so much for being part of our ISSUES debate. Come back tomorrow and check out

Up next, police and cadaver dogs reportedly zero in on a landfall in the search for a missing cheerleader. Nancy Grace has the very latest breaking news starting right now.