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DR. DREW

Child Trauma and its Effects

Aired April 8, 2011 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Welcome to the show.

And here`s what we are talking about today --childhood trauma and the effects it can have on ones life. "Dancing With the Stars`" Cheryl Burke will be here with us. She is dealing with painful secrets from her past.

Then we`re going to get into our star-obsessed culture. Adrian Grenier from "Entourage," you know him and he knows a lot about that. He`s got great insight, and he will be with us.

And of course I`ll be answering your questions right here again tonight. So let`s get started.

Glad you are with us here today. Now, I wanted to share something with you.

When I got up this morning I was thinking about something that happened yesterday. Todd Bridges and I were talking a little bit about Charlie Sheen, and we were talking about how the press and the media has really done him a disservice by focusing so much on him.

And so I thought to myself, I just wanted to share with you guys that I don`t want to be a part of that cacophony. I want to stop.

So, unless there`s something I need to interpret for you about his behavior, I`m not going to be talking about that anymore. I don`t want to continue to be a part of the problem. So that`s that.

Now, I will be answering your Twitter, e-mail and Facebook questions later tonight. And I`ll be taking a call or two as well. So if you want to contact me, go to CNN.com/DrDrew.

I`m very excited about our first guest tonight. She is Cheryl Burke. Most of you know her from -- as one of the pros on "Dancing With the Stars."

You might not know that Cheryl had some very painful years during her childhood. She was betrayed by a family friend. She actually sexually abused her, and she talks about this experiences and many others in her new book, "Dancing Lessons." There it is.

Now, Cheryl, so I know you`ve been talking about this a lot, so I`m going to make you talk about it again.

CHERYL BURKE, "DANCING WITH THE STARS": Yes. It`s OK.

PINSKY: But maybe we`ll get into it in a slightly different way.

BURKE: Yes.

PINSKY: Tell me the story about this guy.

BURKE: Well, as you said, he was a family friend. My step dad and my mother were busy working and trying to earn money for the family, and I had lots of babysitters.

I had one special one who I considered my mother. Her name was Ima (ph), but she passed from breast cancer when I was 13. So we also had another family friend that would pick us up from school every day. "Us," meaning my stepsister and I. And during that time, he would sexually abuse us.

PINSKY: I think I read in your book he was, like, a retired mailman or something?

BURKE: Yes, he was.

PINSKY: Why do you think your -- I mean, it`s kind of peculiar, your parents selecting a man to pick up two girls. Let me just show my cards.

BURKE: OK.

PINSKY: One of the things that happens very commonly in families out there -- and I`m bringing this up because I want people to be aware of it - - if you have been sexually abused, there`s a high probability that you will be attracted to perpetrators. It`s a strange pattern, that women that have been sexually abused will bring perpetrators around their children without realizing it because they`re kind of attracted to those same kinds of people and circumstances.

Do you think your mom was sexually abused?

BURKE: I don`t think my mom was sexually abused.

PINSKY: I mean, she`s a nurse, codependent.

BURKE: She`s a nurse.

PINSKY: That`s a professional codependent, you know.

BURKE: Yes. I mean, she comes from a really big family in the Philippines. A very --

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Have you ever asked her?

BURKE: I`ve never asked her. That`s interesting.

PINSKY: It might be interesting to ask her that.

So, you had this horrible, horrible trauma. And as I recall flipping through your book, there was even some traumas before that, right? Your biological father left.

BURKE: Right. At the age of 2, my mom and dad separated. And I think from then on, you know, I became this really quiet girl who never talked much. My mom took me to a hearing specialist and wanted to make sure --

PINSKY: They actually thought you were deaf.

BURKE: -- that I was -- yes, my mom thought I was deaf.

PINSKY: Wow. Now, there was part of your book -- again, I was flipping around in it today, and the part that really, like, caught me was -- and you let it slip by in about three sentences, but I thought, oh my God, this is so painful -- this scene of you seeing your father for the first time with another woman. You were a little girl.

BURKE: Yes, that was my very first memory.

PINSKY: A little girl watching "Sesame Street." You toddle off towards his bedroom and you peek in and you see --

BURKE: Yes. That`s my very first memory. It`s like as if it happened to me yesterday.

PINSKY: It sounds so painful.

BURKE: Yes. I think most memories I would think would be --

PINSKY: But you`re smiling when you say it.

BURKE: Well, I`m not smiling because I want -- I think it`s trying to hide the pain that, you know, I was feeling back then.

PINSKY: But it`s still with you now.

BURKE: I think it`s still with me. I think, absolutely, seeing my mom and dad separate and --

PINSKY: I`m just looking at how you manage this pain right now. Did that make you party when you were a kid -- later, in adolescence and stuff?

BURKE: Well, I couldn`t because I was dancing.

PINSKY: But you kind of want to escape the pain. It feels like you`re somebody that you`re running away from pain all the time.

BURKE: Absolutely. I numb it. I`m really good at numbing my pain.

PINSKY: That`s not a good thing.

BURKE: No, it`s not. And I`m dealing with it now. I have my therapist I see weekly, and writing this book was very therapeutic. And I still feel that there`s so much more healing I need to do.

PINSKY: I can tell just by you disconnecting from that -- I mean, I barely know you. I read a few lines in the book and I thought, oh my God, it was like a knife going through -- do you feel that right here?

BURKE: A little bit.

PINSKY: A lot.

BURKE: Yes.

PINSKY: It`s like a knife.

BURKE: Yes. I kind of don`t want to think about it.

PINSKY: I kind of see that. But you have to.

BURKE: Yes.

PINSKY: I mean, that`s how you work through all that.

BURKE: It`s true.

PINSKY: I know.

BURKE: Yes. But it`s foggy. It`s kind of foggy for me.

PINSKY: But it`s your very, very first memory.

BURKE: Right.

PINSKY: All right. Let me lay off you a little bit and go to a -- this is a Facebook question.

BURKE: OK.

PINSKY: This is in relation to what it felt like and what your decisions were like in terms of revealing this publicly. "What was your greatest fear of revealing the story?"

BURKE: Being judged for the adduce abuse that I dealt with in high school and my boyfriends, taking the physical abuse. Why did I --

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: You blame yourself for that?

BURKE: You know, there`s moments where I blame myself. There`s moments where I blame my past or my family being separated.

PINSKY: So you`re either blaming yourself or your dad.

BURKE: Right.

PINSKY: Nobody gets forgiveness.

BURKE: But I don`t really know who to blame other than myself. Most of it is like, well, that`s my decision. I`m older. I was 18 in high school. That`s my decision.

PINSKY: To go back to the abusive boyfriend.

BURKE: Right.

PINSKY: This is why you were upset about the Chris Brown appearance, right?

BURKE: A little bit, yes.

PINSKY: A little bit? I saw some of those interviews. You were more than a little bit.

BURKE: Yes. I mean --

PINSKY: This is you being emotionally distant again. I am smiling. I`m happy. I`m Cheryl.

BURKE: No. I know. It`s hard to get down and deep right now. You know? It`s hard.

PINSKY: I know.

BURKE: And, you know, I`m still learning how to be able to deal with emotions. But it did upset me.

PINSKY: I get that. I get that, because those emotions, sitting by themselves like that -- again, this is for people at home. If you have these painful feelings that you distance yourself from, they will be motivations to do things that are not always the healthiest, particularly in your relationships.

Right?

BURKE: Right.

PINSKY: Relationships get extra scary when you have all that pain.

BURKE: They do. They do. They become dependent relationships.

PINSKY: Or, you either become super clingy or --

BURKE: Or afraid of relationships?

PINSKY: Afraid of them, run away.

BURKE: Which I haven`t had in a year and a half, but I don`t think I`m afraid of them.

PINSKY: Go to the abandoning guys. Go to the bad boys.

BURKE: Right. And that`s my pattern. That`s my pattern.

PINSKY: Good times. Well done.

BURKE: That`s my pattern. Well done. Good job.

PINSKY: Cling to the abandoning guys.

BURKE: Yes. That`s not the way to go.

PINSKY: All right. That is not the way to go. That`s right. That`s not the way to go.

BURKE: That is not the way to go.

PINSKY: All right. This is another Facebook question from Shelby P. "How do you decide to reveal such a private matter? And do you think that victims of such abuse are too afraid to reveal similar experiences because of a stigma in our society?"

BURKE: I do believe that. And that`s the reason why I came out with my story and my journey.

That was how I felt. I didn`t want to tell anybody, let alone tell --

PINSKY: Yes. Well, the victims always blame themselves.

BURKE: Right.

PINSKY: Which is -- first of all, let me just say, I know we`ve been kind of talking about your feelings and giving you a bit of grief for not being connected to them. But let me commend you for coming out.

You`re part of a trend right now that I think has historic significance. You have got Ashley Judd, you`ve got you, we have Mackenzie Phillips talking about these things that are so, so common out there.

Some people say -- I mean, I`ve seen crazy data about how common sexual and physical abuse is in our country. It is time we talk about this, and don`t blame the people who are the victims. For goodness sakes, that`s bizarre.

So, have you been stigmatized by talking about it? Has there been any fallout that`s been negative?

BURKE: No. Everyone`s been so supportive. And the e-mails --

PINSKY: That surprises you? Why?

BURKE: It`s scary.

PINSKY: You feel responsible still.

BURKE: I feel -- for going even back to it. I`ve had more than one abusive relationship. I had two.

So, you know, it`s kind of like, you know, I`m scared people are going to be like, what was she thinking? Why couldn`t she learn it from the first time that she was in the relationship?

PINSKY: I mean, this is how people behave when they`ve had trauma in their childhood. It`s not about -- your thinking serves the distorted motivation.

BURKE: But don`t people behave like this when they`re not involved in trauma as a child?

PINSKY: No. Usually people, if they don`t have those kinds of -- they can be. I`m not saying it never happens. But the patterns are when you have something that fits from childhood, you seek it out in your adult life and you keep going back to it and recreating the trauma over and over again.

And the more that you get bonded to the trauma, where that starts to feel like love sometimes -- does that sound familiar?

BURKE: Right. Absolutely.

PINSKY: All right.

Listen, when we come back -- we`re going to take a little break here - - thank you for being so honest, by the way. You`re doing a good job.

BURKE: Of course.

PINSKY: I`m going to ask Cheryl about an issue -- well, I already asked her a little about it, but I`m going to get a little more into her feelings about the Chris Brown appearance on "Dancing With the Stars."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Welcome back.

I`m talking to Cheryl Burke from "Dancing With the Stars."

And before we get on to Cheryl, I just want to say, I`ve still got an issue with those judges for contributing to "Psycho" Mike being kicked of "Dancing With the Stars."

Len, I`m coming for you, dude. I am. I swear to God.

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: OK.

Cheryl, you had an issue with the recent appearance of Chris Brown on "Dancing With the Stars." What was your opinion about that?

BURKE: Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And for me, he`s an amazing performer, super-talented. But because of the issues I dealt with abuse, I`m just not sure if he was, you know, ready --

PINSKY: The right person.

BURKE: -- and the right person.

PINSKY: It sort of triggered you a little bit.

BURKE: A little bit.

PINSKY: Understandably. But I think Rosie O`Donnell has raised some really interesting issues about him, saying that he, himself, must have been a trauma survivor to have these violence issues and these domestic violence issues. And it is something worth pointing out, that people that are physically abused in childhood do these kinds of things, and they, too, need their own help and their own chance to get well.

BURKE: That`s true.

PINSKY: So I`m just glad we`re having this conversation.

BURKE: Yes. Me, too.

PINSKY: Because, you know, the deal is, what do you do with people that do things that are not good in their adult life, and yet you feel sympathetic for them because of some of the things that happened earlier? It`s still not OK to do some of the things that we see people doing these days.

BURKE: No.

PINSKY: So now you`re in treatment. Is that right?

BURKE: I am in treatment for the past year.

PINSKY: And how is that going for you?

BURKE: It`s been amazing. It`s been tough. But it`s also -- it`s been hard to show emotion.

It`s been hard for me to cry. For some reason, it`s so easy for me to talk about my past without, like you said, showing emotion.

PINSKY: Yes. Connecting the emotion.

BURKE: Connecting the emotion.

PINSKY: Too painful.

BURKE: It is.

PINSKY: Yes.

BURKE: It is too painful.

PINSKY: You`ll get there.

Let`s go to a Facebook question, another one. This is from Erika F.

"How difficult" -- I love this stuff. "How difficult was it to build relationships with men, romantic and friendship? Also, did you tell every boyfriend you dated about your sexual abuse or not at all?"

This is interesting.

BURKE: That is interesting. For the long-term relationships, I would talk about my sexual abuse.

PINSKY: How did the guys respond to that?

BURKE: "Oh, I want to kill that guy."

PINSKY: Oh, yes. Good.

BURKE: You know, straight into that.

PINSKY: OK. Great. That must have made you feel good.

BURKE: Yes. It just didn`t really make any sense to me whatsoever. But I always -- you know, I have trust issues.

PINSKY: Of course.

BURKE: It`s really hard for me to trust somebody.

PINSKY: Yes.

And again, I always try to make sense of these conversations for people at home that, when people have trauma and I`m trying to work with them, trust is the biggest problem. Because, really, what we`re trying to get somebody to do is just tolerate closeness, trust the availability of another person. And that requires this kind of close connection. And when you expect abuse and you feel vulnerable, it`s very hard to trust and feel safe.

BURKE: And I`m also attracted to unavailable men.

PINSKY: Well, yes, that`s what this question sort of is alluding to.

BURKE: Well, right.

PINSKY: How difficult was it to build a relationship with men when you`re attracted to the bad boys?

BURKE: The bad boys. And the good boys that come around, I`m completely turned off. Not -- I have to say -- I can`t talk present. I`m trying to talk past.

PINSKY: You`re trying to get into a relationship.

BURKE: I`m trying.

PINSKY: Just for people at home, so they understand what it feels like, since you`re one of these people that goes after the bad boys, when available guy would come around --

BURKE: Disgusting.

PINSKY: You feel disgusted?

BURKE: I feel disgusted.

PINSKY: They feel clingy?

BURKE: A little bit.

PINSKY: Yes.

BURKE: They feel clingy. It`s like, get off me.

PINSKY: They feel clingy or boring.

BURKE: Or boring. That`s a good word, because I always use that. Or I used to use that.

PINSKY: And so what do you do?

BURKE: I break it off.

PINSKY: Nuke it.

BURKE: Yes.

PINSKY: Sabotage it in some way.

BURKE: It`s horrible.

PINSKY: It`s not horrible. It`s the love addiction level (ph) avoidance kind of cycles that people get into.

BURKE: But now I`m ready for the available men.

PINSKY: Are you?

BURKE: Yes.

PINSKY: Anything you want to tell the guys out there?

BURKE: I`m available. I don`t want to seem desperate, though.

PINSKY: All right. Let`s go to another Facebook question. This is from Natasha.

She said, "Since you`ve written a book and put it all out there, has it helped you forgive the act of molestation, the person who committed it?"

BURKE: I don`t think I`ll ever forgive him. I know he just got out of jail. You know --

PINSKY: I understand he showed up at your dad`s --

BURKE: He showed up at my dad`s dental practice and said, "I never did that to your daughters." I`m surprised my dad didn`t kill him.

PINSKY: Yes.

BURKE: Because I think if I was in his shoes I would have.

PINSKY: There`s also other people that victims of abuse need to forgive as well. Aren`t there?

BURKE: Yes.

PINSKY: Who?

BURKE: Themselves.

PINSKY: Very much so. Why do you need to blame yourself?

BURKE: Well, at that -- I don`t blame myself with the molestation, as much as the abusive relationships I was in. I just hate to keep blaming my past.

It`s like, why does this constantly have to be an issue? Why can`t I just change? You know, that, for me, is like, oh, I can blame it on --

PINSKY: Hold on a second --

BURKE: -- a whole bunch of people.

PINSKY: -- because you asked a question that I think in our world today we take way too glib, which is, hey, you just need to change. Can`t you see what you`re doing? You`re going with a guy, it`s domestic violence. Get out of there.

Don`t you see it? Of course you saw it. But you can`t change unless you change what`s going inside here.

And until you trust and get close and connect yourself more, change is going to be almost impossible, because every time you get close to a real person, guess how they`re going to feel? Clingy and boring and --

BURKE: Yes. But I think I`m in a good place in my life right now.

I feel like I want to heal and I`m taking -- I`m seeing my therapist regularly. And for me that`s helped me a lot. And I don`t think I`m ever going to be cured, but at least I can try and help myself.

PINSKY: Listen, people who have these kinds of experiences get a lot better. And you can start to have real close relationships.

What do you want to tell people out there? I mean, most people have written a book like this to want to be an inspiration to other people. Is that safe to say in your case? You want to help others?

BURKE: That is safe to say. I do want to help others. I think especially with abusive relationships, it can get really dangerous.

PINSKY: Well, what`s the primary message you want to give people out there?

BURKE: To be open, to talk to someone you trust about something, some relationship that you`re in.

PINSKY: How did you get out?

BURKE: Talking to a friend.

PINSKY: And they got you out?

BURKE: They helped. In the beginning, I didn`t listen. But if I kept that to myself, you know, it would have been really hard for me to get out.

But also, dancing really helped me, having a passion in life, trying to stay focused in what I love to do, and not let that person take that away from me.

PINSKY: Did they almost?

BURKE: Absolutely.

PINSKY: How bad did it get?

BURKE: It got really bad. It got really bad to where I was ready just to move away with this person, leave everything, leave my family, my friends, my career.

You know, there`s moments I would sneak out of the house to go meet him in the mornings at 6:00 a.m. It would get so unhealthy. And so it was an addiction for me. And it got to the point where I was ready to drop my whole life for this person that was abusing me.

PINSKY: And then when he would go away, would you go into a panic?

BURKE: Absolutely. I couldn`t eat for days.

PINSKY: You`d have withdrawal.

BURKE: Major. Major.

PINSKY: Yes. I just -- well, first of all, I commend you for writing the book. This stuff is so, so very common out there.

Did you have any other problem, complications, eating disorder, cutting, anything like that? Because sometimes that comes along with all this.

BURKE: No.

PINSKY: Just boys.

BURKE: Just boys, yes. I love food too much. I couldn`t have an eating disorder.

PINSKY: Fair enough.

All right. Well, listen, I want to sort of make sense of this again for people at home, that if you have experiences in childhood where you have felt terrorized, out of control, helpless, often this means abandonment, neglect, physical abuse, sexual abuse. That is childhood trauma. And you may put it aside -- right?

I`m sure you spent many years going, I`ve dealt with that, I`ve dealt with that.

BURKE: It`s almost like as if it never happened to me.

PINSKY: Yes, it didn`t even happen to me.

BURKE: Right.

PINSKY: How did you know you had to bring it up to the present, though? How did you know you had to dredge this all up again?

BURKE: It`s the only way I`ll heal.

PINSKY: Who told you that? How did you learn that?

BURKE: My therapist.

PINSKY: But how did you know to go get therapy?

BURKE: My friends.

PINSKY: Your friends got you?

BURKE: Yes, my friends.

PINSKY: OK.

So that is the point here, that you have to realize that these experiences in childhood lead to patterns in one`s adult and young adult life that can`t just change, because you`re attracted to certain kinds of people in certain kinds of situations and you obsess about them. You`re driven and motivated to pursue them. And then the alternatives that are healthy, not so good.

BURKE: Not so good.

PINSKY: Do we need to say thank you to some of your friends that pulled you out of this?

BURKE: Yes, we do.

PINSKY: Who was that?

BURKE: Joanne McCartney (ph). I`ve got to thank her, because she helped me actually go and get therapy. I mean, she`s been amazing. She`s my one really good friend.

PINSKY: Well, it is other people -- again, this is a theme I want to hit over and over on this show, which is that we affect one another. If you didn`t have that person, that golden cord, pulling you out, you`d still be in that mess.

Cheryl, thank you for joining us. Well done.

BURKE: Thank you. Thanks.

PINSKY: We`re already getting responses to Cheryl`s comments right here about her childhood secret. We will take a call related to just that. And I`ll be answering more of your questions.

Remember, no topic off limit.

And later, celebrity obsession. Actor Adrian Grenier from "Entourage" is here to help me answer this question: What does our preoccupation with stars say about us?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Well, this is one of my very favorite parts of the program, where I get to speak directly to you guys.

Now, so many of you had great things to say about our guest "Lizzie Beautiful." Your comments on our Facebook page were amazing.

I want to remind you, this is her book about her story, "Lizzie Beautiful." You can go to her Web site, AboutLizzie.com, to find out about it.

But let`s go right now to get some more questions. Here we go.

First of all, from Facebook, that`s where I`m going. Facebook. There we are.

It is Jackie who has a question about chronic pain. "How do you create someone with chronic pain without creating an addict?"

Well, listen, if you are an addict, if you know yourself to be an addict, do everything you can to avoid opioid exposure. And if you have to exposed, make sure the recovering community is around you.

If you are not in recovery, but you have a family history of addiction, be sure to notify the doctor. A short a course as possible will reduce the risks.

Now, we have got a call from Marcia in Spokane.

Marcia, what`s going on?

MARCIA, SPOKANE: Hi, Dr. Drew.

I have a 4-year-old nephew who has -- his father is an alcoholic, and he`s already pretending to use cigarettes to smoke and to drink beer. My question is, am I being hypervigilant as a compulsive gambler and having three friends die of overdoses, or am I right to be concerned about it?

PINSKY: No, you are being vigilant, but not hypervigilant. And you are right to be concerned about this.

Obviously, part of the problem with addiction is that kids will model their parents` behavior. And in my experience, what they`ll do is get to these substances earlier than they would have otherwise.

The big issue here is, does this kid have the genetic potential? And that is about roughly 50 percent when his dad is an alcoholic addict.

We don`t know if his kid has that potential, but certainly you would want to reduce the risk of that gene becoming disease. Genes are not destiny. So you`ll want to talk to this kid about the risks and the relationship between using and the consequences in not just his dad`s life, but in his own.

We have another call from Lisa in Bakersfield. Lisa -- I guess Lisa relates to what Cheryl Burke was just talking about a few minutes ago.

Lisa, what`s going on?

LISA, BAKERSFIELD: Hi, Dr. Drew.

Yes, I`ve had a really rough childhood that`s led me to, like, mistrust men in the past. But now, like, I`m in a great relationship, and I just want to be complete with him. And I just wanted some advice. Should I tell him about my past? Because it was, like, really, really rough.

PINSKY: Oh, that`s very interesting.

You know, generally, I have a (INAUDIBLE) which is, more mystery, less history. I think what came before is not always everybody`s business.

In this case, though, it`s had such a powerful impact on you, I think it would be a good idea. Once you`ve been with him, and he`s well committed to you, say, three, four months down the line, to begin to talk to him about what your emotional life is like, because that`s the only way you`re going to actually establish intimacy with him, is by really being open with him about what your experience is in an interpersonal experience.

You have a special burden, and realize it`s going to be difficult for you to establish intimacy. You`re going to want to run, but hang in there.

Keep your questions coming via Twitter, Facebook and e-mail. I will continue to take phone calls.

I want you to stay in touch with me at CNN.com/DrDrew. I want to help you. And you could be on the air with me right here.

Adrian Grenier from "Entourage" is here next. He`s going to help us answer this question: Why are we so star-obsessed? What`s up with us?

That, after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Adrian Grenier is an actor well known for his role as Vince on HBO`s "Entourage." He also produced the documentary, "Teenage Paparazzo." It`s now out on DVD, and we`re going to be exploring America`s fascination with celebrity. Certainly, he`s seen all sides of this. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY (voice-over): Americans are absolutely inundated with Hollywood news at every turn. Face it. Our society is obsessed with celebrity gossip. We demand it, they supply it, and it supplies them with millions of dollars every year. We are addicted to all the celebrity news we can get our hands on. And paparazzi clamor to get us every last frame. Do you ever wonder why this is?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY (on-camera): Here is the DVD, "Teenage Paparazzo." I order all of you to go get this and watch it. It`s fascinating, and it`s smart, but let`s start with a question for Adrian. Why do you think we`re so celebrity obsessed?

ADRIAN GRENIER, ACTOR: It`s so tasty and salacious and easy to digest. And it`s, I think, basically rooted in visual and images which are, you know, very easy to absorb.

PINSKY: So, it`s people, people we like to look at?

GRENIER: Yes. I think fundamentally, yes.

PINSKY: So, it comes from some sort of urge to put people on a pedestal that are prettier than us, have more than us, that kind of thing?

GRENIER: Well, I don`t know if we put them on a pedestal. I think they already claim the pedestal and stand up on it boldly.

PINSKY: But you`re a celebrity, and I don`t think -- I don`t experience you that way, right? Or do you think you participate in all that?

GRENIER: Well, you know, for so long, there`s been this monopoly on the image, and it`s been controlled by, you know, a couple studios, couple of people who have the outlets. The certain number of people have the outlet to provide the images.

PINSKY: OK.

GRENIER: And to create the stars, so to speak. So, only a few people had the ins.

PINSKY: Let me ask you this. Does it say something about the country or the world now that we are so focused on this? We spend so much time and energy and money directing our attention to people we don`t even know. For me, it feels a little bit like the way we used to treat monarchy and aristocracy, doesn`t it? It`s like humans have always done a little bit of this.

GRENIER: Yes. I don`t think it`s completely unnatural. I think, you know, it can be healthy to some degree, but gone unchecked, I think it can be dangerous.

PINSKY: Is it unchecked now?

GRENIER: I don`t know. I mean, I -

PINSKY: Do you ever feel like it`s dangerous for you?

GRENIER: Well, for me, I recognize sort of the potential destructiveness of the experience.

PINSKY: And what is that? What is the potential --

GRENIER: I mean, I`ve spent eight years on a show about celebrity, playing a celebrity and then, you know, in that process, I sort of become a celebrity in my own right.

PINSKY: Yes.

GRENIER: So, needless to say, I`ve had lots of questions, lots of thoughts on the topic which is one reason why I made the film because I sensed something that was maybe a little more sinister. It wasn`t all glitz and glam and, you know, it wasn`t necessarily the good life inherently.

PINSKY: All right. I want to explore that a little more, but first, we`re going to look at a piece of tape. This is what makes Adrian uniquely qualified to comment on our topic today. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know him as superstar Vincent Chase on HBO`s "Entourage."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a comedy that was about a young Hollywood star and is on entourage meeting his childhood friends.

GRENIER (voice-over): Playing the role of Vince changed my life because now that people love the show, I`ve come into a certain Vince-like celebrity myself. It`s strange that I get all this attention because I play someone who gets all this attention.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: That is from "Teenage Paparozzo."

GRENIER: I love the music. It sort of plodding(ph), you know, sort of scary.

PINSKY: Well, sinister, and that`s what I wanted to get into. You said there`s a sinister element. What is that? I think I know. I think I have a sense of what it is. You tell me what you think it is.

GRENIER: Well, you know, I mean, think it`s, you know, my business is me. You know, the product that I`m selling is --

PINSKY: So, you`re vulnerable when you`re out there in this --

GRENIER: It`s part of my job to be vulnerable.

PINSKY: Yes.

GRENIER: But at the same time, I`m focused on me. And I think that can become dangerous if you`re not --

PINSKY: OK. So, becoming too self-obsessed to yourself because other people are obsessed with you becomes a pathology. I agree with that.

GRENIER: You start to believe the hype, you know, at a certain point. You know, when -- like, I`m a character. I`m a guy who plays --

PINSKY: You`re an actor.

GRENIER: I`m an actor, but you, know, I start -- I can easily start to believe that I am all these things.

PINSKY: You know what`s fascinating, Adrian, is when people ask me questions about taking care of celebrities. They literally believe that it`s almost as though I have to have a special manual for celebrity pathology. It`s like, we have the DSM 4R for people, but for celebrities, we have the celebrity psychiatric manual. No, it`s the same. You`re the same. You just have a --

GRENIER: We`re not special.

PINSKY: A special job. Interesting job that other people want to do, but I think I kind of -- I want to talk with this throughout the next half hour or so, but I think the sinister element in this, maybe I won`t divulge everything I`m thinking right now, but I think the sinister elements comes from the people who are watching you. I think that you are vulnerable, but what is it you`re vulnerable to?

Think about what they`re thinking about you, what they write about you. I mean, they want to elevate you, right? They want you to be the observed of all observed. The one. And what do they want to do with you once they got you up there?

GRENIER: Maybe if you disappoint them --

PINSKY: Then do what they want to do.

GRENIER: Right. They will turn your down.

PINSKY: They want to tear you limb for limb. Not just -- I mean, who else in society --

GRENIER: Leave my limbs alone.

PINSKY: I`m just saying that society has to take on that kind of a vulnerability where you, literally, are like, oh, crap, if I fall, it`s going to be a pretty deep fall.

GRENIER: Yes.

PINSKY: I imagine you at the top of an Aztec temple or something, right? Here I am.

GRENIER: Well, maybe not that high.

PINSKY: I`m just saying. Figuratively speaking. So, tell me a little more about this -- the college tour that the "Teenage Paparazzo." I want to hold the DVD up again. It is really was a great film. I was involved a little bit with it with Adrian. It`s a smart film. I recommend it very highly. It`s very thoughtful about this topic, and it`s done through a very interesting prism that of a teenager who, himself, became an obsessed paparazzo.

GRENIER: Yes.

PINSKY: And now you got a college tour associated with this.

GRENIER: Yes. Well, you know, part of what I discovered, you know, with your help and, you know, after reading your book about celebrity narcissism, you know, corrupt, what is it?

PINSKY: Mirror effect.

GRENIER: The mirror effect. You know, basically, I discovered that we have to sort of break away from just sort of, you know, allegiance to the image. We have to start interacting more with each other on a human level, and we have to interact -- and we have to speak out. Speak back, you know, communicate. So, there`s not just this, you know, one-sided conversation.

PINSKY: In other words, just talk, which we`re doing now. And then - - but it is digesting the media. Learning to be good consumers of media, right?

GRENIER: And then giving back.

PINSKY: One minute, tell me about that tour.

GRENIER: OK: "Teenage Paparazzo" experience tour, and you demand a screening at your school if you go to the website.

PINSKY: Colleges.

GRENIER: Colleges. Mainly colleges.

PINSKY: High schools?

GRENIER: But also towns and local theaters. And basically, it`s the film. It`s a screening. It`s a guest speaker, educator, celebrity.

PINSKY: Will you show up at some of these?

GRENIER: Yes, I mean, I`ll show up if I can. Obviously, I`m shooting "Entourage" right now, but if I can, I`ll be there. But then, I coupled it with an educational curriculum to give teachers and students the ability to utilize the film on education level.

PINSKY: To be able to have a conversation about what we`re talking about here, what this is, how to consume --

GRENIER: Exactly. Be critical and utilize the film to do something active. And then, I`ve also put together an art exhibit of about eight pieces of art that I find to reflect the film and the themes within it.

PINSKY: Well, Adrian, thank you for joining us. I really do appreciate it. It`s an interesting topic.

GRENIER: Thank you.

PINSKY: You know I`m kind of into it. And the film on DVD is "Teenage Paparazzo."

We will be back, and I`ll be asking those who get a paycheck for observing celebrities if they ever have any ambivalence about what it is they do. So, stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who is that? Nicole Richie? Is she going to go to jail?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe, she`ll get a lighter sentence. We were talking the other day, do you think Courteney Cox (INAUDIBLE) that kind of threesomes?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a possibility.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I really want to have a Beckham sighting.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who`s that in?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: There we go. That was a great example of our obsession with stars. It is from Adrian Grenier`s documentary "Teenage Paparazzo." It is available on DVD now. With us at this point are Kevin Frazier from "The Insider," paparazzo, Ben Evenstad, and online celebrity observer, my buddy, Perez Hilton who is with us via Skype.

So, Perez, I`m going to start with you. Who is generating the most excitement these days?

PEREZ HILTON, FOUNDER, PEREZHILTON.COM: Well, of course, we still have Lady Gaga generating a ton of excitement and Justin Bieber, but what I find especially interesting is the more things change, the more they stay the same, and we are still fascinated by Britney Spears. I know you`ve talked about her on the show. We`ve been talking about her a lot of the tour. You know, Enrique Iglesias pulling out, the bad buzz. Her album not selling as well as it should. Britney continues to fascinate.

PINSKY: But gentlemen, why? Kevin, what`s the deal?

KEVIN FRAZIER, CO-ANCHOR, "THE INSIDER: Here`s the thing, and I will say it depends on your demographic because in our world, it`s Oprah. And Oprah always has been the queen. And here with Britney, I get it, because people always are fascinated by what`s going to happen next. Will the train come off the tracks?

PINSKY: With Oprah?

FRAZIER: With Britney. And so I think that`s why people always watch Britney, and they`re interested. She performs in Vegas, folks are like --

PINSKY: But these guys, I think, have a different emphasis because they`re trying to make money --

BEN EVENSTAD, PAPARAZZO, NATIONAL PHOTO GROUP: From a picture standpoint, I would second the Lady Gaga.

PINSKY: Lady gaga?

EVENSTAD: She makes great pictures.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: But you, guys, aren`t hanging outside of Lady Gaga`s house. You`re hanging outside Lindsay`s house and outside of Britney`s house.

EVENSTAD: Well, we`re at both. We`re at all three. All three. And Charlie Sheen.

FRAZIER: But also changes because Reese Witherspoon, a picture of Reese Witherspoon is pretty good right now.

PINSKY: But gentleman, here`s what I`m talking about, who cares? Why do we care?

EVENSTAD: The people to buy my photos.

PINSKY: Why do they care? Perez, why do they care?

HILTON: Well, people like celebrity content because it`s a great escape. It`s aspirational. You know, not everybody wants to be Lindsay Lohan because, by many accounts, she`s still kind of not got her life together.

PINSKY: But that`s the point, Perez. It`s not inspirational at all. In fact, you used to put some pretty horrible stuff up on your website. That was not inspirational. That was tearing people down.

HILTON: Everybody still -- even though Lindsay is kind of still out of control, people still want to read about the things she does, like, oh, she went shopping there or she still showed up at the premiere to that movie wearing that nice outfit. You know, it`s -- it`s a fun escape for people.

PINSKY: OK. An escape.

HILTON: And easily digestible.

PINSKY: OK. Easily digestible escape. Kevin.

FRAZIER: It`s an age old thing. I mean, when Liz Taylor was famous, people wanted Liz Taylor. If you go further back, you know, it`s older stars. The rat pack. It`s always been that way.

PINSKY: Before the 20th century, what was it before 20th century? Was it what`s Henry VIII doing? Is that what they used to do (ph)?

EVENSTAD: The characters in the Jane Austin novel is probably what women related to then. I think a majority of the audience that read these magazines are women, and they like to see the fashion, and the picture --

PINSKY: All right. You bring up a really interesting point because he`s a Twitter question from Jake Riley, and he says, why do women see more interested in celebrity news than men, which is what you`re sort of tilting towards --

EVENSTAD: I think men are more into sports, generally, and women are more into --

PINSKY: Well, Kevin lived in both those worlds.

FRAZIER: I`ve lived in both the worlds, and in sports, men care about the game, the performance, the numbers.

PINSKY: Yes, exactly, with data.

FRAZIER: But with women, it`s how did she lee look? Was that dress too tight? Should she have worn that? Oh, I don`t if she`s --

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Perez, are we saying that the celebrity culture, the sort of obsession is primarily amongst women?

HILTON: Well, yes, I mean, 80 percent of my readers about there are females, but we`re only making the obsession worse, Drew, by talking about it right now.

PINSKY: Listen, I`m not --

FRAZIER: You talk about it every day. You make a living off of it, Perez. So what.

HILTON: I think Dr. Drew is framing it like it`s a bad thing. I think it`s a great thing.

PINSKY: OK. I`m not saying it`s a bad thing, really, and I really don`t intend it to be a bad thing. If I sort of seem to be expressing a little bit of righteous indignation, that`s for effect only. My thing is I`m curious about it. What the hell -- what is up with us? What is up with us that we obsess so much about -- there are so many better things we could be spending our time doing. Just seems to me. Just seems to me.

HILTON: Like what Kevin was saying, it isn`t anything new. And it`s not just with celebrities. I feel that by design, human beings are curious creatures. We just want to know things about others. It can be about the cheerleader, it can be about the neighbor down the street, it can be about the priest that`s been doing inappropriate things. Like, we want to know the latest about everybody.

FRAZIER: We also want to escape, and we want to get a little bit -- you know, these are tough times. And people need help and somewhere to go.

PINSKY: OK. So, I think I agree with you. I think escape is one of the primary deals here, but we`re escaping into somebody else`s life, a glamorous life that`s not ours. And I, my concern is, gentlemen, let me take you to this point next. My concern is, and this is the part that I`m also curious about.

Not so much about why we do it as viewers and as consumers, but what we do with it. And I think, and Perez, I think you`ll bear me up on this which is that we start acting out envy. We don`t just get jealous of these people, we want to tear them down, don`t you think?

HILTON: Well, I don`t think it`s just with -- well, yes. I mean, that`s kind of the cycle that things happen in. It`s, like, you built somebody up then you tear them down and then you build them up again. And I don`t necessarily think it`s the media that does that. it`s just --

PINSKY: It`s people. It`s the viewers. The consumers.

FRAZIER: That`s what Perez does.

PINSKY: Well, Kevin says you do it, Perez.

FRAZIER: You make a living off doing that, and people gravitated towards it, but they loved when you drew funny things on pictures and you make fun of people. People, they`re like, did you see what Perez Hilton said about so-and-so today? That`s the culture. People love that stuff.

EVENSTAD: But why is it acting out envy? I mean, I think --

PINSKY: Because it`s not jealousy. Jealousy is, gosh, they have what I have. It makes me angry. I wish I could have that. I`m going to work hard to get that. Envy is, they have what I have. Damn them. I got to knock them down to make sure they come down to my size.

EVENSTAD: I think that`s only five percent of people who consume this kind of material. I think the majority it`s just a pastime. They look at it, and they move on with their day.

PINSKY: I think when you talk about women, I think they gather together and talk about it. And they galvanize themselves against other people. It makes them feel good to look at another and tear -- I`m not saying women, men do the same thing, but I think that`s the nature of how this is consumed.

FRAZIER: I remember seeing pictures of Drew on vacation in Hawaii, and I remember the ladies in my office like, wow, he looks fantastic. Everybody was happy. They`re like, look at drew, wow, who knew. look At him. And so, nobody was tearing you down. Everybody was, like --

PINSKY: So, there`s a good side to this, too.

FRAZIER: There`s a good side to it.

PINSKY: There`s a good side to this, too.

EVENSTAD: The biggest celebrity event of this year is going to be the wedding of Prince William and Kate Middleton.

PINSKY: Yes.

EVENSTAD: Hundreds of millions of people are going to tune in to watch that to see what her dress looks like, to see this big glamorous event, not to watch them trip when they go down the aisle.

PINSKY: Perez, do you agree with that? So, there are two sides to this obsession which is a positive one which we`re glorying in people`s successes, and then we get a little special tingle out of knocking people down. So, it cuts both ways.

HILTON: Yes. I mean, but, like the other panelist said, it`s not just negative. People love new celebrity couples, new hook-ups. People love babies and pregnancies. So, it`s not just bad things that folks are gravitating toward.

PINSKY: But Perez, you`re actually making -- nothing makes me happier than changing my mind. You guys are actually changing my mind a little bit. Perez, you changed the character of what you do online. Tell me about that, how that feels or do you have thoughts about that?

HILTON: Yes. I mean, I don`t know if you read the new issue of "Rolling Stone" with Howard Stern on it, but he`s somebody that I really look up to as a role model and inspiration, and over the course of his career, Howard has changed as well. I think that growth and evolution is natural thing. I recently had a birthday. I turned 33. And when I started blogging, I was 26. People change a lot between the ages of --

PINSKY: Perez, absolutely. And God bless you for changing, but I`m just curious. You`ve been on both sides of the fence. What does it feel like to be on this side now? Tell me about that experience in just one way or another.

HILTON: I feel great. I feel like the world and the universe is telling me you made the right choice. Traffic on my website has not gone down, so I think that people are said (ph) with more positive direction --

PINSKY: Right. So, that`s what we`re saying. This doesn`t have to be so bullying. It doesn`t have to be the acting out of envy, and you`re saying the same thing.

FRAZIER: I think what happened with Perez which happens to a lot of people, when you become a celebrity and you see it with your own eyes, you start to have compassion for people. And there is nothing worse than seeing what someone is going through, when they`re being chased by the paparazzi or they`re going through a hard time. You feel for them.

PINSKY: I agree.

FRAZIER: It changes your tone.

PINSKY: Perez, but you say you`re more empathic to the people you`re talking about now. Like, when somebody came to up and confront you about it being felt like a bully in experience, then you can see that perspective and that changed you.

HILTON: Yes. I mean, I`m also just more mindful of --

PINSKY: The power.

HILTON: More important to me than the celebrities are the people reading my website and the messages that I`m sending to them, because I don`t want to contribute in any way to anybody committing suicide or anybody thinking that it`s OK to bully others. Like, of course, I care about the celebrities and that was part of it, but really, the bigger issue for me was the world and the energy that I was putting out there.

PINSKY: All right. All right, gentlemen. This is very good. I`m going to take a little break here. And when we come back, we`re going to continue to sort of dig into this conversation about our obsession with celebrity and not just what it means about the media, but what it means about us, as consumers, and how we might take a more positive spin on all this. Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: We are back with the "Insider`s" Kevin Frazier and paparazzo, Ben Evenstad and online celebrity observer, Perez Hilton. He`s available here with us via Skype. Now, I want to start with a Twitter question here. Here is it.

This is from C. Richards. What is our personal payoff for learning more about celebrities? What -- this is apropos, the escape thing you guys brought up. What hole in us gets filled? Why do we care about their lives? What hole in us is getting filled as viewers, as consumers, that we need this escape?

EVENSTAD: I think there`s natural thing with people on the public eye in the escape, let`s say, actors and actresses. When you see them on the movie screen, you see them in those roles, you get curious, what is their private life like? Who are they --

PINSKY: But why do we need escape? You guys use the word escape? Why do we need it.

FRAZIER: It`s no different than our sports heroes. People want to know about our sports heroes and they want to know about their lives.

PINSKY: So, they want to be elevated by this?

FRAZIER: Well, because we follow that person, because we follow that team, we love them, because you follow the star, and you follow their movies.

PINSKY: You attach to them in someway.

FRAZIER: And in performances, you attach them, and it`s like, this is my favorite singer. This is my favorite actor.

PINSKY: This is mine.

FRAZIER: Yes.

PINSKY: Perez, what do you think?

HILTON: Yes. I mean, another word to use is invested. We`re invested in these people. Whether, you know, they are successful now or not. Like, Lindsay Lohan, for example, she`s not as successful career wise as she used to be, but because we grew up with her, because we saw her be very successful at a young age, we`re invested in her in a way that we aren`t with other people.

So, we`re going to follow her story, and this is the worst part or good part depending how you look at it. Whether we like it or not, I argue that Lindsay Lohan will be famous for the rest of her life, even if she never stars in another movie

PINSKY: So, are we saying that there isn`t a hole that`s being filled so much, so much that the desire to escape is a natural desire that we use as a group to invest ourselves in a single person? We just do that as a part of our biology?

FRAZIER: Or we`ll have a group of people. There are several people.

PINSKY: This is -- in our human culture --

FRAZIER: It is the way we are.

PINSKY: Curiosity, but it`s investing. It`s not curiosity.

EVENSTAD: People are really into politics and we don`t say, why are they so into politics?

PINSKY: Yes, but that`s about -- that can affect us. I mean, politics can change our lives potentially.

FRAZIER: There are people who, every night, tune in to listen to what you have to say, whether it`d be on the radio or TV or whatever because they want to hear from you.

PINSKY: But they want to take something away. What`s in it for me is sort of what I always think about. What`s in it for them that I can give them that helps them.

FRAZIER: They want to hear your voice and what you might say because they could get it elsewhere, but they like --

PINSKY: They`re invested in it.

FRAZIER: From you.

PINSKY: Well, interesting. Perez, do you agree with that?

HILTON: Well, yes. Everybody loves Dr. Drew.

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: All right, gentlemen. Well, this has been a very, very interesting discussion. And Perez, thank you for joining us via skape, Skype rather. See how cool I am? I can`t even say Skype. And Ben, thank you, and I want to point out. People know Ben -- can I mention with that - -

EVENSTAD: Sure.

PINSKY: You know from the famous Michael Jackson footage of him going in the ambulance. That was intense. So, we had a conversation a little bit off the air about how the images we see now are simply fluid. It`s just everything, everywhere, and that`s the way it goes, and we have to become -- what I like to say to my viewers is we have to become more sophisticated consumers of media.

I mean, my heart was changed a little bit by this conversation. I always think about the consumption of celebrity culture as something that, I don`t know, it says something maybe not so good about us, that we are trying to fill a hole, that we`re acting out our envy. I wrote an entire book about how the fact is that we become more narcissistic as individuals, and therefore, more narcissistic as a culture.

But, the reality is, these guys convinced me, and I hope it`s a trend is that we`re starting to look at more positive things. We`re looking at the royal wedding, we`re looking at people having babies, we`re looking people who have successful relationships, and we understand that those things are inspirational, and we`re starting to invest in those. So, I hope we got it right for you this time, and we will see you on the next DR. DREW.

DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Welcome to the show.

And here`s what we are talking about today --childhood trauma and the effects it can have on ones life. "Dancing With the Stars`" Cheryl Burke will be here with us. She is dealing with painful secrets from her past.

Then we`re going to get into our star-obsessed culture. Adrian Grenier from "Entourage," you know him and he knows a lot about that. He`s got great insight, and he will be with us.

And of course I`ll be answering your questions right here again tonight. So let`s get started.

Glad you are with us here today. Now, I wanted to share something with you.

When I got up this morning I was thinking about something that happened yesterday. Todd Bridges and I were talking a little bit about Charlie Sheen, and we were talking about how the press and the media has really done him a disservice by focusing so much on him.

And so I thought to myself, I just wanted to share with you guys that I don`t want to be a part of that cacophony. I want to stop.

So, unless there`s something I need to interpret for you about his behavior, I`m not going to be talking about that anymore. I don`t want to continue to be a part of the problem. So that`s that.

Now, I will be answering your Twitter, e-mail and Facebook questions later tonight. And I`ll be taking a call or two as well. So if you want to contact me, go to CNN.com/DrDrew.

I`m very excited about our first guest tonight. She is Cheryl Burke. Most of you know her from -- as one of the pros on "Dancing With the Stars."

You might not know that Cheryl had some very painful years during her childhood. She was betrayed by a family friend. She actually sexually abused her, and she talks about this experiences and many others in her new book, "Dancing Lessons." There it is.

Now, Cheryl, so I know you`ve been talking about this a lot, so I`m going to make you talk about it again.

CHERYL BURKE, "DANCING WITH THE STARS": Yes. It`s OK.

PINSKY: But maybe we`ll get into it in a slightly different way.

BURKE: Yes.

PINSKY: Tell me the story about this guy.

BURKE: Well, as you said, he was a family friend. My step dad and my mother were busy working and trying to earn money for the family, and I had lots of babysitters.

I had one special one who I considered my mother. Her name was Ima (ph), but she passed from breast cancer when I was 13. So we also had another family friend that would pick us up from school every day. "Us," meaning my stepsister and I. And during that time, he would sexually abuse us.

PINSKY: I think I read in your book he was, like, a retired mailman or something?

BURKE: Yes, he was.

PINSKY: Why do you think your -- I mean, it`s kind of peculiar, your parents selecting a man to pick up two girls. Let me just show my cards.

BURKE: OK.

PINSKY: One of the things that happens very commonly in families out there -- and I`m bringing this up because I want people to be aware of it - - if you have been sexually abused, there`s a high probability that you will be attracted to perpetrators. It`s a strange pattern, that women that have been sexually abused will bring perpetrators around their children without realizing it because they`re kind of attracted to those same kinds of people and circumstances.

Do you think your mom was sexually abused?

BURKE: I don`t think my mom was sexually abused.

PINSKY: I mean, she`s a nurse, codependent.

BURKE: She`s a nurse.

PINSKY: That`s a professional codependent, you know.

BURKE: Yes. I mean, she comes from a really big family in the Philippines. A very --

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Have you ever asked her?

BURKE: I`ve never asked her. That`s interesting.

PINSKY: It might be interesting to ask her that.

So, you had this horrible, horrible trauma. And as I recall flipping through your book, there was even some traumas before that, right? Your biological father left.

BURKE: Right. At the age of 2, my mom and dad separated. And I think from then on, you know, I became this really quiet girl who never talked much. My mom took me to a hearing specialist and wanted to make sure --

PINSKY: They actually thought you were deaf.

BURKE: -- that I was -- yes, my mom thought I was deaf.

PINSKY: Wow. Now, there was part of your book -- again, I was flipping around in it today, and the part that really, like, caught me was -- and you let it slip by in about three sentences, but I thought, oh my God, this is so painful -- this scene of you seeing your father for the first time with another woman. You were a little girl.

BURKE: Yes, that was my very first memory.

PINSKY: A little girl watching "Sesame Street." You toddle off towards his bedroom and you peek in and you see --

BURKE: Yes. That`s my very first memory. It`s like as if it happened to me yesterday.

PINSKY: It sounds so painful.

BURKE: Yes. I think most memories I would think would be --

PINSKY: But you`re smiling when you say it.

BURKE: Well, I`m not smiling because I want -- I think it`s trying to hide the pain that, you know, I was feeling back then.

PINSKY: But it`s still with you now.

BURKE: I think it`s still with me. I think, absolutely, seeing my mom and dad separate and --

PINSKY: I`m just looking at how you manage this pain right now. Did that make you party when you were a kid -- later, in adolescence and stuff?

BURKE: Well, I couldn`t because I was dancing.

PINSKY: But you kind of want to escape the pain. It feels like you`re somebody that you`re running away from pain all the time.

BURKE: Absolutely. I numb it. I`m really good at numbing my pain.

PINSKY: That`s not a good thing.

BURKE: No, it`s not. And I`m dealing with it now. I have my therapist I see weekly, and writing this book was very therapeutic. And I still feel that there`s so much more healing I need to do.

PINSKY: I can tell just by you disconnecting from that -- I mean, I barely know you. I read a few lines in the book and I thought, oh my God, it was like a knife going through -- do you feel that right here?

BURKE: A little bit.

PINSKY: A lot.

BURKE: Yes.

PINSKY: It`s like a knife.

BURKE: Yes. I kind of don`t want to think about it.

PINSKY: I kind of see that. But you have to.

BURKE: Yes.

PINSKY: I mean, that`s how you work through all that.

BURKE: It`s true.

PINSKY: I know.

BURKE: Yes. But it`s foggy. It`s kind of foggy for me.

PINSKY: But it`s your very, very first memory.

BURKE: Right.

PINSKY: All right. Let me lay off you a little bit and go to a -- this is a Facebook question.

BURKE: OK.

PINSKY: This is in relation to what it felt like and what your decisions were like in terms of revealing this publicly. "What was your greatest fear of revealing the story?"

BURKE: Being judged for the adduce abuse that I dealt with in high school and my boyfriends, taking the physical abuse. Why did I --

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: You blame yourself for that?

BURKE: You know, there`s moments where I blame myself. There`s moments where I blame my past or my family being separated.

PINSKY: So you`re either blaming yourself or your dad.

BURKE: Right.

PINSKY: Nobody gets forgiveness.

BURKE: But I don`t really know who to blame other than myself. Most of it is like, well, that`s my decision. I`m older. I was 18 in high school. That`s my decision.

PINSKY: To go back to the abusive boyfriend.

BURKE: Right.

PINSKY: This is why you were upset about the Chris Brown appearance, right?

BURKE: A little bit, yes.

PINSKY: A little bit? I saw some of those interviews. You were more than a little bit.

BURKE: Yes. I mean --

PINSKY: This is you being emotionally distant again. I am smiling. I`m happy. I`m Cheryl.

BURKE: No. I know. It`s hard to get down and deep right now. You know? It`s hard.

PINSKY: I know.

BURKE: And, you know, I`m still learning how to be able to deal with emotions. But it did upset me.

PINSKY: I get that. I get that, because those emotions, sitting by themselves like that -- again, this is for people at home. If you have these painful feelings that you distance yourself from, they will be motivations to do things that are not always the healthiest, particularly in your relationships.

Right?

BURKE: Right.

PINSKY: Relationships get extra scary when you have all that pain.

BURKE: They do. They do. They become dependent relationships.

PINSKY: Or, you either become super clingy or --

BURKE: Or afraid of relationships?

PINSKY: Afraid of them, run away.

BURKE: Which I haven`t had in a year and a half, but I don`t think I`m afraid of them.

PINSKY: Go to the abandoning guys. Go to the bad boys.

BURKE: Right. And that`s my pattern. That`s my pattern.

PINSKY: Good times. Well done.

BURKE: That`s my pattern. Well done. Good job.

PINSKY: Cling to the abandoning guys.

BURKE: Yes. That`s not the way to go.

PINSKY: All right. That is not the way to go. That`s right. That`s not the way to go.

BURKE: That is not the way to go.

PINSKY: All right. This is another Facebook question from Shelby P. "How do you decide to reveal such a private matter? And do you think that victims of such abuse are too afraid to reveal similar experiences because of a stigma in our society?"

BURKE: I do believe that. And that`s the reason why I came out with my story and my journey.

That was how I felt. I didn`t want to tell anybody, let alone tell --

PINSKY: Yes. Well, the victims always blame themselves.

BURKE: Right.

PINSKY: Which is -- first of all, let me just say, I know we`ve been kind of talking about your feelings and giving you a bit of grief for not being connected to them. But let me commend you for coming out.

You`re part of a trend right now that I think has historic significance. You have got Ashley Judd, you`ve got you, we have Mackenzie Phillips talking about these things that are so, so common out there.

Some people say -- I mean, I`ve seen crazy data about how common sexual and physical abuse is in our country. It is time we talk about this, and don`t blame the people who are the victims. For goodness sakes, that`s bizarre.

So, have you been stigmatized by talking about it? Has there been any fallout that`s been negative?

BURKE: No. Everyone`s been so supportive. And the e-mails --

PINSKY: That surprises you? Why?

BURKE: It`s scary.

PINSKY: You feel responsible still.

BURKE: I feel -- for going even back to it. I`ve had more than one abusive relationship. I had two.

So, you know, it`s kind of like, you know, I`m scared people are going to be like, what was she thinking? Why couldn`t she learn it from the first time that she was in the relationship?

PINSKY: I mean, this is how people behave when they`ve had trauma in their childhood. It`s not about -- your thinking serves the distorted motivation.

BURKE: But don`t people behave like this when they`re not involved in trauma as a child?

PINSKY: No. Usually people, if they don`t have those kinds of -- they can be. I`m not saying it never happens. But the patterns are when you have something that fits from childhood, you seek it out in your adult life and you keep going back to it and recreating the trauma over and over again.

And the more that you get bonded to the trauma, where that starts to feel like love sometimes -- does that sound familiar?

BURKE: Right. Absolutely.

PINSKY: All right.

Listen, when we come back -- we`re going to take a little break here - - thank you for being so honest, by the way. You`re doing a good job.

BURKE: Of course.

PINSKY: I`m going to ask Cheryl about an issue -- well, I already asked her a little about it, but I`m going to get a little more into her feelings about the Chris Brown appearance on "Dancing With the Stars."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Welcome back.

I`m talking to Cheryl Burke from "Dancing With the Stars."

And before we get on to Cheryl, I just want to say, I`ve still got an issue with those judges for contributing to "Psycho" Mike being kicked of "Dancing With the Stars."

Len, I`m coming for you, dude. I am. I swear to God.

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: OK.

Cheryl, you had an issue with the recent appearance of Chris Brown on "Dancing With the Stars." What was your opinion about that?

BURKE: Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And for me, he`s an amazing performer, super-talented. But because of the issues I dealt with abuse, I`m just not sure if he was, you know, ready --

PINSKY: The right person.

BURKE: -- and the right person.

PINSKY: It sort of triggered you a little bit.

BURKE: A little bit.

PINSKY: Understandably. But I think Rosie O`Donnell has raised some really interesting issues about him, saying that he, himself, must have been a trauma survivor to have these violence issues and these domestic violence issues. And it is something worth pointing out, that people that are physically abused in childhood do these kinds of things, and they, too, need their own help and their own chance to get well.

BURKE: That`s true.

PINSKY: So I`m just glad we`re having this conversation.

BURKE: Yes. Me, too.

PINSKY: Because, you know, the deal is, what do you do with people that do things that are not good in their adult life, and yet you feel sympathetic for them because of some of the things that happened earlier? It`s still not OK to do some of the things that we see people doing these days.

BURKE: No.

PINSKY: So now you`re in treatment. Is that right?

BURKE: I am in treatment for the past year.

PINSKY: And how is that going for you?

BURKE: It`s been amazing. It`s been tough. But it`s also -- it`s been hard to show emotion.

It`s been hard for me to cry. For some reason, it`s so easy for me to talk about my past without, like you said, showing emotion.

PINSKY: Yes. Connecting the emotion.

BURKE: Connecting the emotion.

PINSKY: Too painful.

BURKE: It is.

PINSKY: Yes.

BURKE: It is too painful.

PINSKY: You`ll get there.

Let`s go to a Facebook question, another one. This is from Erika F.

"How difficult" -- I love this stuff. "How difficult was it to build relationships with men, romantic and friendship? Also, did you tell every boyfriend you dated about your sexual abuse or not at all?"

This is interesting.

BURKE: That is interesting. For the long-term relationships, I would talk about my sexual abuse.

PINSKY: How did the guys respond to that?

BURKE: "Oh, I want to kill that guy."

PINSKY: Oh, yes. Good.

BURKE: You know, straight into that.

PINSKY: OK. Great. That must have made you feel good.

BURKE: Yes. It just didn`t really make any sense to me whatsoever. But I always -- you know, I have trust issues.

PINSKY: Of course.

BURKE: It`s really hard for me to trust somebody.

PINSKY: Yes.

And again, I always try to make sense of these conversations for people at home that, when people have trauma and I`m trying to work with them, trust is the biggest problem. Because, really, what we`re trying to get somebody to do is just tolerate closeness, trust the availability of another person. And that requires this kind of close connection. And when you expect abuse and you feel vulnerable, it`s very hard to trust and feel safe.

BURKE: And I`m also attracted to unavailable men.

PINSKY: Well, yes, that`s what this question sort of is alluding to.

BURKE: Well, right.

PINSKY: How difficult was it to build a relationship with men when you`re attracted to the bad boys?

BURKE: The bad boys. And the good boys that come around, I`m completely turned off. Not -- I have to say -- I can`t talk present. I`m trying to talk past.

PINSKY: You`re trying to get into a relationship.

BURKE: I`m trying.

PINSKY: Just for people at home, so they understand what it feels like, since you`re one of these people that goes after the bad boys, when available guy would come around --

BURKE: Disgusting.

PINSKY: You feel disgusted?

BURKE: I feel disgusted.

PINSKY: They feel clingy?

BURKE: A little bit.

PINSKY: Yes.

BURKE: They feel clingy. It`s like, get off me.

PINSKY: They feel clingy or boring.

BURKE: Or boring. That`s a good word, because I always use that. Or I used to use that.

PINSKY: And so what do you do?

BURKE: I break it off.

PINSKY: Nuke it.

BURKE: Yes.

PINSKY: Sabotage it in some way.

BURKE: It`s horrible.

PINSKY: It`s not horrible. It`s the love addiction level (ph) avoidance kind of cycles that people get into.

BURKE: But now I`m ready for the available men.

PINSKY: Are you?

BURKE: Yes.

PINSKY: Anything you want to tell the guys out there?

BURKE: I`m available. I don`t want to seem desperate, though.

PINSKY: All right. Let`s go to another Facebook question. This is from Natasha.

She said, "Since you`ve written a book and put it all out there, has it helped you forgive the act of molestation, the person who committed it?"

BURKE: I don`t think I`ll ever forgive him. I know he just got out of jail. You know --

PINSKY: I understand he showed up at your dad`s --

BURKE: He showed up at my dad`s dental practice and said, "I never did that to your daughters." I`m surprised my dad didn`t kill him.

PINSKY: Yes.

BURKE: Because I think if I was in his shoes I would have.

PINSKY: There`s also other people that victims of abuse need to forgive as well. Aren`t there?

BURKE: Yes.

PINSKY: Who?

BURKE: Themselves.

PINSKY: Very much so. Why do you need to blame yourself?

BURKE: Well, at that -- I don`t blame myself with the molestation, as much as the abusive relationships I was in. I just hate to keep blaming my past.

It`s like, why does this constantly have to be an issue? Why can`t I just change? You know, that, for me, is like, oh, I can blame it on --

PINSKY: Hold on a second --

BURKE: -- a whole bunch of people.

PINSKY: -- because you asked a question that I think in our world today we take way too glib, which is, hey, you just need to change. Can`t you see what you`re doing? You`re going with a guy, it`s domestic violence. Get out of there.

Don`t you see it? Of course you saw it. But you can`t change unless you change what`s going inside here.

And until you trust and get close and connect yourself more, change is going to be almost impossible, because every time you get close to a real person, guess how they`re going to feel? Clingy and boring and --

BURKE: Yes. But I think I`m in a good place in my life right now.

I feel like I want to heal and I`m taking -- I`m seeing my therapist regularly. And for me that`s helped me a lot. And I don`t think I`m ever going to be cured, but at least I can try and help myself.

PINSKY: Listen, people who have these kinds of experiences get a lot better. And you can start to have real close relationships.

What do you want to tell people out there? I mean, most people have written a book like this to want to be an inspiration to other people. Is that safe to say in your case? You want to help others?

BURKE: That is safe to say. I do want to help others. I think especially with abusive relationships, it can get really dangerous.

PINSKY: Well, what`s the primary message you want to give people out there?

BURKE: To be open, to talk to someone you trust about something, some relationship that you`re in.

PINSKY: How did you get out?

BURKE: Talking to a friend.

PINSKY: And they got you out?

BURKE: They helped. In the beginning, I didn`t listen. But if I kept that to myself, you know, it would have been really hard for me to get out.

But also, dancing really helped me, having a passion in life, trying to stay focused in what I love to do, and not let that person take that away from me.

PINSKY: Did they almost?

BURKE: Absolutely.

PINSKY: How bad did it get?

BURKE: It got really bad. It got really bad to where I was ready just to move away with this person, leave everything, leave my family, my friends, my career.

You know, there`s moments I would sneak out of the house to go meet him in the mornings at 6:00 a.m. It would get so unhealthy. And so it was an addiction for me. And it got to the point where I was ready to drop my whole life for this person that was abusing me.

PINSKY: And then when he would go away, would you go into a panic?

BURKE: Absolutely. I couldn`t eat for days.

PINSKY: You`d have withdrawal.

BURKE: Major. Major.

PINSKY: Yes. I just -- well, first of all, I commend you for writing the book. This stuff is so, so very common out there.

Did you have any other problem, complications, eating disorder, cutting, anything like that? Because sometimes that comes along with all this.

BURKE: No.

PINSKY: Just boys.

BURKE: Just boys, yes. I love food too much. I couldn`t have an eating disorder.

PINSKY: Fair enough.

All right. Well, listen, I want to sort of make sense of this again for people at home, that if you have experiences in childhood where you have felt terrorized, out of control, helpless, often this means abandonment, neglect, physical abuse, sexual abuse. That is childhood trauma. And you may put it aside -- right?

I`m sure you spent many years going, I`ve dealt with that, I`ve dealt with that.

BURKE: It`s almost like as if it never happened to me.

PINSKY: Yes, it didn`t even happen to me.

BURKE: Right.

PINSKY: How did you know you had to bring it up to the present, though? How did you know you had to dredge this all up again?

BURKE: It`s the only way I`ll heal.

PINSKY: Who told you that? How did you learn that?

BURKE: My therapist.

PINSKY: But how did you know to go get therapy?

BURKE: My friends.

PINSKY: Your friends got you?

BURKE: Yes, my friends.

PINSKY: OK.

So that is the point here, that you have to realize that these experiences in childhood lead to patterns in one`s adult and young adult life that can`t just change, because you`re attracted to certain kinds of people in certain kinds of situations and you obsess about them. You`re driven and motivated to pursue them. And then the alternatives that are healthy, not so good.

BURKE: Not so good.

PINSKY: Do we need to say thank you to some of your friends that pulled you out of this?

BURKE: Yes, we do.

PINSKY: Who was that?

BURKE: Joanne McCartney (ph). I`ve got to thank her, because she helped me actually go and get therapy. I mean, she`s been amazing. She`s my one really good friend.

PINSKY: Well, it is other people -- again, this is a theme I want to hit over and over on this show, which is that we affect one another. If you didn`t have that person, that golden cord, pulling you out, you`d still be in that mess.

Cheryl, thank you for joining us. Well done.

BURKE: Thank you. Thanks.

PINSKY: We`re already getting responses to Cheryl`s comments right here about her childhood secret. We will take a call related to just that. And I`ll be answering more of your questions.

Remember, no topic off limit.

And later, celebrity obsession. Actor Adrian Grenier from "Entourage" is here to help me answer this question: What does our preoccupation with stars say about us?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Well, this is one of my very favorite parts of the program, where I get to speak directly to you guys.

Now, so many of you had great things to say about our guest "Lizzie Beautiful." Your comments on our Facebook page were amazing.

I want to remind you, this is her book about her story, "Lizzie Beautiful." You can go to her Web site, AboutLizzie.com, to find out about it.

But let`s go right now to get some more questions. Here we go.

First of all, from Facebook, that`s where I`m going. Facebook. There we are.

It is Jackie who has a question about chronic pain. "How do you create someone with chronic pain without creating an addict?"

Well, listen, if you are an addict, if you know yourself to be an addict, do everything you can to avoid opioid exposure. And if you have to exposed, make sure the recovering community is around you.

If you are not in recovery, but you have a family history of addiction, be sure to notify the doctor. A short a course as possible will reduce the risks.

Now, we have got a call from Marcia in Spokane.

Marcia, what`s going on?

MARCIA, SPOKANE: Hi, Dr. Drew.

I have a 4-year-old nephew who has -- his father is an alcoholic, and he`s already pretending to use cigarettes to smoke and to drink beer. My question is, am I being hypervigilant as a compulsive gambler and having three friends die of overdoses, or am I right to be concerned about it?

PINSKY: No, you are being vigilant, but not hypervigilant. And you are right to be concerned about this.

Obviously, part of the problem with addiction is that kids will model their parents` behavior. And in my experience, what they`ll do is get to these substances earlier than they would have otherwise.

The big issue here is, does this kid have the genetic potential? And that is about roughly 50 percent when his dad is an alcoholic addict.

We don`t know if his kid has that potential, but certainly you would want to reduce the risk of that gene becoming disease. Genes are not destiny. So you`ll want to talk to this kid about the risks and the relationship between using and the consequences in not just his dad`s life, but in his own.

We have another call from Lisa in Bakersfield. Lisa -- I guess Lisa relates to what Cheryl Burke was just talking about a few minutes ago.

Lisa, what`s going on?

LISA, BAKERSFIELD: Hi, Dr. Drew.

Yes, I`ve had a really rough childhood that`s led me to, like, mistrust men in the past. But now, like, I`m in a great relationship, and I just want to be complete with him. And I just wanted some advice. Should I tell him about my past? Because it was, like, really, really rough.

PINSKY: Oh, that`s very interesting.

You know, generally, I have a (INAUDIBLE) which is, more mystery, less history. I think what came before is not always everybody`s business.

In this case, though, it`s had such a powerful impact on you, I think it would be a good idea. Once you`ve been with him, and he`s well committed to you, say, three, four months down the line, to begin to talk to him about what your emotional life is like, because that`s the only way you`re going to actually establish intimacy with him, is by really being open with him about what your experience is in an interpersonal experience.

You have a special burden, and realize it`s going to be difficult for you to establish intimacy. You`re going to want to run, but hang in there.

Keep your questions coming via Twitter, Facebook and e-mail. I will continue to take phone calls.

I want you to stay in touch with me at CNN.com/DrDrew. I want to help you. And you could be on the air with me right here.

Adrian Grenier from "Entourage" is here next. He`s going to help us answer this question: Why are we so star-obsessed? What`s up with us?

That, after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Adrian Grenier is an actor well known for his role as Vince on HBO`s "Entourage." He also produced the documentary, "Teenage Paparazzo." It`s now out on DVD, and we`re going to be exploring America`s fascination with celebrity. Certainly, he`s seen all sides of this. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY (voice-over): Americans are absolutely inundated with Hollywood news at every turn. Face it. Our society is obsessed with celebrity gossip. We demand it, they supply it, and it supplies them with millions of dollars every year. We are addicted to all the celebrity news we can get our hands on. And paparazzi clamor to get us every last frame. Do you ever wonder why this is?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY (on-camera): Here is the DVD, "Teenage Paparazzo." I order all of you to go get this and watch it. It`s fascinating, and it`s smart, but let`s start with a question for Adrian. Why do you think we`re so celebrity obsessed?

ADRIAN GRENIER, ACTOR: It`s so tasty and salacious and easy to digest. And it`s, I think, basically rooted in visual and images which are, you know, very easy to absorb.

PINSKY: So, it`s people, people we like to look at?

GRENIER: Yes. I think fundamentally, yes.

PINSKY: So, it comes from some sort of urge to put people on a pedestal that are prettier than us, have more than us, that kind of thing?

GRENIER: Well, I don`t know if we put them on a pedestal. I think they already claim the pedestal and stand up on it boldly.

PINSKY: But you`re a celebrity, and I don`t think -- I don`t experience you that way, right? Or do you think you participate in all that?

GRENIER: Well, you know, for so long, there`s been this monopoly on the image, and it`s been controlled by, you know, a couple studios, couple of people who have the outlets. The certain number of people have the outlet to provide the images.

PINSKY: OK.

GRENIER: And to create the stars, so to speak. So, only a few people had the ins.

PINSKY: Let me ask you this. Does it say something about the country or the world now that we are so focused on this? We spend so much time and energy and money directing our attention to people we don`t even know. For me, it feels a little bit like the way we used to treat monarchy and aristocracy, doesn`t it? It`s like humans have always done a little bit of this.

GRENIER: Yes. I don`t think it`s completely unnatural. I think, you know, it can be healthy to some degree, but gone unchecked, I think it can be dangerous.

PINSKY: Is it unchecked now?

GRENIER: I don`t know. I mean, I -

PINSKY: Do you ever feel like it`s dangerous for you?

GRENIER: Well, for me, I recognize sort of the potential destructiveness of the experience.

PINSKY: And what is that? What is the potential --

GRENIER: I mean, I`ve spent eight years on a show about celebrity, playing a celebrity and then, you know, in that process, I sort of become a celebrity in my own right.

PINSKY: Yes.

GRENIER: So, needless to say, I`ve had lots of questions, lots of thoughts on the topic which is one reason why I made the film because I sensed something that was maybe a little more sinister. It wasn`t all glitz and glam and, you know, it wasn`t necessarily the good life inherently.

PINSKY: All right. I want to explore that a little more, but first, we`re going to look at a piece of tape. This is what makes Adrian uniquely qualified to comment on our topic today. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know him as superstar Vincent Chase on HBO`s "Entourage."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a comedy that was about a young Hollywood star and is on entourage meeting his childhood friends.

GRENIER (voice-over): Playing the role of Vince changed my life because now that people love the show, I`ve come into a certain Vince-like celebrity myself. It`s strange that I get all this attention because I play someone who gets all this attention.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: That is from "Teenage Paparozzo."

GRENIER: I love the music. It sort of plodding(ph), you know, sort of scary.

PINSKY: Well, sinister, and that`s what I wanted to get into. You said there`s a sinister element. What is that? I think I know. I think I have a sense of what it is. You tell me what you think it is.

GRENIER: Well, you know, I mean, think it`s, you know, my business is me. You know, the product that I`m selling is --

PINSKY: So, you`re vulnerable when you`re out there in this --

GRENIER: It`s part of my job to be vulnerable.

PINSKY: Yes.

GRENIER: But at the same time, I`m focused on me. And I think that can become dangerous if you`re not --

PINSKY: OK. So, becoming too self-obsessed to yourself because other people are obsessed with you becomes a pathology. I agree with that.

GRENIER: You start to believe the hype, you know, at a certain point. You know, when -- like, I`m a character. I`m a guy who plays --

PINSKY: You`re an actor.

GRENIER: I`m an actor, but you, know, I start -- I can easily start to believe that I am all these things.

PINSKY: You know what`s fascinating, Adrian, is when people ask me questions about taking care of celebrities. They literally believe that it`s almost as though I have to have a special manual for celebrity pathology. It`s like, we have the DSM 4R for people, but for celebrities, we have the celebrity psychiatric manual. No, it`s the same. You`re the same. You just have a --

GRENIER: We`re not special.

PINSKY: A special job. Interesting job that other people want to do, but I think I kind of -- I want to talk with this throughout the next half hour or so, but I think the sinister element in this, maybe I won`t divulge everything I`m thinking right now, but I think the sinister elements comes from the people who are watching you. I think that you are vulnerable, but what is it you`re vulnerable to?

Think about what they`re thinking about you, what they write about you. I mean, they want to elevate you, right? They want you to be the observed of all observed. The one. And what do they want to do with you once they got you up there?

GRENIER: Maybe if you disappoint them --

PINSKY: Then do what they want to do.

GRENIER: Right. They will turn your down.

PINSKY: They want to tear you limb for limb. Not just -- I mean, who else in society --

GRENIER: Leave my limbs alone.

PINSKY: I`m just saying that society has to take on that kind of a vulnerability where you, literally, are like, oh, crap, if I fall, it`s going to be a pretty deep fall.

GRENIER: Yes.

PINSKY: I imagine you at the top of an Aztec temple or something, right? Here I am.

GRENIER: Well, maybe not that high.

PINSKY: I`m just saying. Figuratively speaking. So, tell me a little more about this -- the college tour that the "Teenage Paparazzo." I want to hold the DVD up again. It is really was a great film. I was involved a little bit with it with Adrian. It`s a smart film. I recommend it very highly. It`s very thoughtful about this topic, and it`s done through a very interesting prism that of a teenager who, himself, became an obsessed paparazzo.

GRENIER: Yes.

PINSKY: And now you got a college tour associated with this.

GRENIER: Yes. Well, you know, part of what I discovered, you know, with your help and, you know, after reading your book about celebrity narcissism, you know, corrupt, what is it?

PINSKY: Mirror effect.

GRENIER: The mirror effect. You know, basically, I discovered that we have to sort of break away from just sort of, you know, allegiance to the image. We have to start interacting more with each other on a human level, and we have to interact -- and we have to speak out. Speak back, you know, communicate. So, there`s not just this, you know, one-sided conversation.

PINSKY: In other words, just talk, which we`re doing now. And then - - but it is digesting the media. Learning to be good consumers of media, right?

GRENIER: And then giving back.

PINSKY: One minute, tell me about that tour.

GRENIER: OK: "Teenage Paparazzo" experience tour, and you demand a screening at your school if you go to the website.

PINSKY: Colleges.

GRENIER: Colleges. Mainly colleges.

PINSKY: High schools?

GRENIER: But also towns and local theaters. And basically, it`s the film. It`s a screening. It`s a guest speaker, educator, celebrity.

PINSKY: Will you show up at some of these?

GRENIER: Yes, I mean, I`ll show up if I can. Obviously, I`m shooting "Entourage" right now, but if I can, I`ll be there. But then, I coupled it with an educational curriculum to give teachers and students the ability to utilize the film on education level.

PINSKY: To be able to have a conversation about what we`re talking about here, what this is, how to consume --

GRENIER: Exactly. Be critical and utilize the film to do something active. And then, I`ve also put together an art exhibit of about eight pieces of art that I find to reflect the film and the themes within it.

PINSKY: Well, Adrian, thank you for joining us. I really do appreciate it. It`s an interesting topic.

GRENIER: Thank you.

PINSKY: You know I`m kind of into it. And the film on DVD is "Teenage Paparazzo."

We will be back, and I`ll be asking those who get a paycheck for observing celebrities if they ever have any ambivalence about what it is they do. So, stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who is that? Nicole Richie? Is she going to go to jail?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe, she`ll get a lighter sentence. We were talking the other day, do you think Courteney Cox (INAUDIBLE) that kind of threesomes?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a possibility.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I really want to have a Beckham sighting.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who`s that in?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: There we go. That was a great example of our obsession with stars. It is from Adrian Grenier`s documentary "Teenage Paparazzo." It is available on DVD now. With us at this point are Kevin Frazier from "The Insider," paparazzo, Ben Evenstad, and online celebrity observer, my buddy, Perez Hilton who is with us via Skype.

So, Perez, I`m going to start with you. Who is generating the most excitement these days?

PEREZ HILTON, FOUNDER, PEREZHILTON.COM: Well, of course, we still have Lady Gaga generating a ton of excitement and Justin Bieber, but what I find especially interesting is the more things change, the more they stay the same, and we are still fascinated by Britney Spears. I know you`ve talked about her on the show. We`ve been talking about her a lot of the tour. You know, Enrique Iglesias pulling out, the bad buzz. Her album not selling as well as it should. Britney continues to fascinate.

PINSKY: But gentlemen, why? Kevin, what`s the deal?

KEVIN FRAZIER, CO-ANCHOR, "THE INSIDER: Here`s the thing, and I will say it depends on your demographic because in our world, it`s Oprah. And Oprah always has been the queen. And here with Britney, I get it, because people always are fascinated by what`s going to happen next. Will the train come off the tracks?

PINSKY: With Oprah?

FRAZIER: With Britney. And so I think that`s why people always watch Britney, and they`re interested. She performs in Vegas, folks are like --

PINSKY: But these guys, I think, have a different emphasis because they`re trying to make money --

BEN EVENSTAD, PAPARAZZO, NATIONAL PHOTO GROUP: From a picture standpoint, I would second the Lady Gaga.

PINSKY: Lady gaga?

EVENSTAD: She makes great pictures.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: But you, guys, aren`t hanging outside of Lady Gaga`s house. You`re hanging outside Lindsay`s house and outside of Britney`s house.

EVENSTAD: Well, we`re at both. We`re at all three. All three. And Charlie Sheen.

FRAZIER: But also changes because Reese Witherspoon, a picture of Reese Witherspoon is pretty good right now.

PINSKY: But gentleman, here`s what I`m talking about, who cares? Why do we care?

EVENSTAD: The people to buy my photos.

PINSKY: Why do they care? Perez, why do they care?

HILTON: Well, people like celebrity content because it`s a great escape. It`s aspirational. You know, not everybody wants to be Lindsay Lohan because, by many accounts, she`s still kind of not got her life together.

PINSKY: But that`s the point, Perez. It`s not inspirational at all. In fact, you used to put some pretty horrible stuff up on your website. That was not inspirational. That was tearing people down.

HILTON: Everybody still -- even though Lindsay is kind of still out of control, people still want to read about the things she does, like, oh, she went shopping there or she still showed up at the premiere to that movie wearing that nice outfit. You know, it`s -- it`s a fun escape for people.

PINSKY: OK. An escape.

HILTON: And easily digestible.

PINSKY: OK. Easily digestible escape. Kevin.

FRAZIER: It`s an age old thing. I mean, when Liz Taylor was famous, people wanted Liz Taylor. If you go further back, you know, it`s older stars. The rat pack. It`s always been that way.

PINSKY: Before the 20th century, what was it before 20th century? Was it what`s Henry VIII doing? Is that what they used to do (ph)?

EVENSTAD: The characters in the Jane Austin novel is probably what women related to then. I think a majority of the audience that read these magazines are women, and they like to see the fashion, and the picture --

PINSKY: All right. You bring up a really interesting point because he`s a Twitter question from Jake Riley, and he says, why do women see more interested in celebrity news than men, which is what you`re sort of tilting towards --

EVENSTAD: I think men are more into sports, generally, and women are more into --

PINSKY: Well, Kevin lived in both those worlds.

FRAZIER: I`ve lived in both the worlds, and in sports, men care about the game, the performance, the numbers.

PINSKY: Yes, exactly, with data.

FRAZIER: But with women, it`s how did she lee look? Was that dress too tight? Should she have worn that? Oh, I don`t if she`s --

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Perez, are we saying that the celebrity culture, the sort of obsession is primarily amongst women?

HILTON: Well, yes, I mean, 80 percent of my readers about there are females, but we`re only making the obsession worse, Drew, by talking about it right now.

PINSKY: Listen, I`m not --

FRAZIER: You talk about it every day. You make a living off of it, Perez. So what.

HILTON: I think Dr. Drew is framing it like it`s a bad thing. I think it`s a great thing.

PINSKY: OK. I`m not saying it`s a bad thing, really, and I really don`t intend it to be a bad thing. If I sort of seem to be expressing a little bit of righteous indignation, that`s for effect only. My thing is I`m curious about it. What the hell -- what is up with us? What is up with us that we obsess so much about -- there are so many better things we could be spending our time doing. Just seems to me. Just seems to me.

HILTON: Like what Kevin was saying, it isn`t anything new. And it`s not just with celebrities. I feel that by design, human beings are curious creatures. We just want to know things about others. It can be about the cheerleader, it can be about the neighbor down the street, it can be about the priest that`s been doing inappropriate things. Like, we want to know the latest about everybody.

FRAZIER: We also want to escape, and we want to get a little bit -- you know, these are tough times. And people need help and somewhere to go.

PINSKY: OK. So, I think I agree with you. I think escape is one of the primary deals here, but we`re escaping into somebody else`s life, a glamorous life that`s not ours. And I, my concern is, gentlemen, let me take you to this point next. My concern is, and this is the part that I`m also curious about.

Not so much about why we do it as viewers and as consumers, but what we do with it. And I think, and Perez, I think you`ll bear me up on this which is that we start acting out envy. We don`t just get jealous of these people, we want to tear them down, don`t you think?

HILTON: Well, I don`t think it`s just with -- well, yes. I mean, that`s kind of the cycle that things happen in. It`s, like, you built somebody up then you tear them down and then you build them up again. And I don`t necessarily think it`s the media that does that. it`s just --

PINSKY: It`s people. It`s the viewers. The consumers.

FRAZIER: That`s what Perez does.

PINSKY: Well, Kevin says you do it, Perez.

FRAZIER: You make a living off doing that, and people gravitated towards it, but they loved when you drew funny things on pictures and you make fun of people. People, they`re like, did you see what Perez Hilton said about so-and-so today? That`s the culture. People love that stuff.

EVENSTAD: But why is it acting out envy? I mean, I think --

PINSKY: Because it`s not jealousy. Jealousy is, gosh, they have what I have. It makes me angry. I wish I could have that. I`m going to work hard to get that. Envy is, they have what I have. Damn them. I got to knock them down to make sure they come down to my size.

EVENSTAD: I think that`s only five percent of people who consume this kind of material. I think the majority it`s just a pastime. They look at it, and they move on with their day.

PINSKY: I think when you talk about women, I think they gather together and talk about it. And they galvanize themselves against other people. It makes them feel good to look at another and tear -- I`m not saying women, men do the same thing, but I think that`s the nature of how this is consumed.

FRAZIER: I remember seeing pictures of Drew on vacation in Hawaii, and I remember the ladies in my office like, wow, he looks fantastic. Everybody was happy. They`re like, look at drew, wow, who knew. look At him. And so, nobody was tearing you down. Everybody was, like --

PINSKY: So, there`s a good side to this, too.

FRAZIER: There`s a good side to it.

PINSKY: There`s a good side to this, too.

EVENSTAD: The biggest celebrity event of this year is going to be the wedding of Prince William and Kate Middleton.

PINSKY: Yes.

EVENSTAD: Hundreds of millions of people are going to tune in to watch that to see what her dress looks like, to see this big glamorous event, not to watch them trip when they go down the aisle.

PINSKY: Perez, do you agree with that? So, there are two sides to this obsession which is a positive one which we`re glorying in people`s successes, and then we get a little special tingle out of knocking people down. So, it cuts both ways.

HILTON: Yes. I mean, but, like the other panelist said, it`s not just negative. People love new celebrity couples, new hook-ups. People love babies and pregnancies. So, it`s not just bad things that folks are gravitating toward.

PINSKY: But Perez, you`re actually making -- nothing makes me happier than changing my mind. You guys are actually changing my mind a little bit. Perez, you changed the character of what you do online. Tell me about that, how that feels or do you have thoughts about that?

HILTON: Yes. I mean, I don`t know if you read the new issue of "Rolling Stone" with Howard Stern on it, but he`s somebody that I really look up to as a role model and inspiration, and over the course of his career, Howard has changed as well. I think that growth and evolution is natural thing. I recently had a birthday. I turned 33. And when I started blogging, I was 26. People change a lot between the ages of --

PINSKY: Perez, absolutely. And God bless you for changing, but I`m just curious. You`ve been on both sides of the fence. What does it feel like to be on this side now? Tell me about that experience in just one way or another.

HILTON: I feel great. I feel like the world and the universe is telling me you made the right choice. Traffic on my website has not gone down, so I think that people are said (ph) with more positive direction --

PINSKY: Right. So, that`s what we`re saying. This doesn`t have to be so bullying. It doesn`t have to be the acting out of envy, and you`re saying the same thing.

FRAZIER: I think what happened with Perez which happens to a lot of people, when you become a celebrity and you see it with your own eyes, you start to have compassion for people. And there is nothing worse than seeing what someone is going through, when they`re being chased by the paparazzi or they`re going through a hard time. You feel for them.

PINSKY: I agree.

FRAZIER: It changes your tone.

PINSKY: Perez, but you say you`re more empathic to the people you`re talking about now. Like, when somebody came to up and confront you about it being felt like a bully in experience, then you can see that perspective and that changed you.

HILTON: Yes. I mean, I`m also just more mindful of --

PINSKY: The power.

HILTON: More important to me than the celebrities are the people reading my website and the messages that I`m sending to them, because I don`t want to contribute in any way to anybody committing suicide or anybody thinking that it`s OK to bully others. Like, of course, I care about the celebrities and that was part of it, but really, the bigger issue for me was the world and the energy that I was putting out there.

PINSKY: All right. All right, gentlemen. This is very good. I`m going to take a little break here. And when we come back, we`re going to continue to sort of dig into this conversation about our obsession with celebrity and not just what it means about the media, but what it means about us, as consumers, and how we might take a more positive spin on all this. Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: We are back with the "Insider`s" Kevin Frazier and paparazzo, Ben Evenstad and online celebrity observer, Perez Hilton. He`s available here with us via Skype. Now, I want to start with a Twitter question here. Here is it.

This is from C. Richards. What is our personal payoff for learning more about celebrities? What -- this is apropos, the escape thing you guys brought up. What hole in us gets filled? Why do we care about their lives? What hole in us is getting filled as viewers, as consumers, that we need this escape?

EVENSTAD: I think there`s natural thing with people on the public eye in the escape, let`s say, actors and actresses. When you see them on the movie screen, you see them in those roles, you get curious, what is their private life like? Who are they --

PINSKY: But why do we need escape? You guys use the word escape? Why do we need it.

FRAZIER: It`s no different than our sports heroes. People want to know about our sports heroes and they want to know about their lives.

PINSKY: So, they want to be elevated by this?

FRAZIER: Well, because we follow that person, because we follow that team, we love them, because you follow the star, and you follow their movies.

PINSKY: You attach to them in someway.

FRAZIER: And in performances, you attach them, and it`s like, this is my favorite singer. This is my favorite actor.

PINSKY: This is mine.

FRAZIER: Yes.

PINSKY: Perez, what do you think?

HILTON: Yes. I mean, another word to use is invested. We`re invested in these people. Whether, you know, they are successful now or not. Like, Lindsay Lohan, for example, she`s not as successful career wise as she used to be, but because we grew up with her, because we saw her be very successful at a young age, we`re invested in her in a way that we aren`t with other people.

So, we`re going to follow her story, and this is the worst part or good part depending how you look at it. Whether we like it or not, I argue that Lindsay Lohan will be famous for the rest of her life, even if she never stars in another movie

PINSKY: So, are we saying that there isn`t a hole that`s being filled so much, so much that the desire to escape is a natural desire that we use as a group to invest ourselves in a single person? We just do that as a part of our biology?

FRAZIER: Or we`ll have a group of people. There are several people.

PINSKY: This is -- in our human culture --

FRAZIER: It is the way we are.

PINSKY: Curiosity, but it`s investing. It`s not curiosity.

EVENSTAD: People are really into politics and we don`t say, why are they so into politics?

PINSKY: Yes, but that`s about -- that can affect us. I mean, politics can change our lives potentially.

FRAZIER: There are people who, every night, tune in to listen to what you have to say, whether it`d be on the radio or TV or whatever because they want to hear from you.

PINSKY: But they want to take something away. What`s in it for me is sort of what I always think about. What`s in it for them that I can give them that helps them.

FRAZIER: They want to hear your voice and what you might say because they could get it elsewhere, but they like --

PINSKY: They`re invested in it.

FRAZIER: From you.

PINSKY: Well, interesting. Perez, do you agree with that?

HILTON: Well, yes. Everybody loves Dr. Drew.

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: All right, gentlemen. Well, this has been a very, very interesting discussion. And Perez, thank you for joining us via skape, Skype rather. See how cool I am? I can`t even say Skype. And Ben, thank you, and I want to point out. People know Ben -- can I mention with that - -

EVENSTAD: Sure.

PINSKY: You know from the famous Michael Jackson footage of him going in the ambulance. That was intense. So, we had a conversation a little bit off the air about how the images we see now are simply fluid. It`s just everything, everywhere, and that`s the way it goes, and we have to become -- what I like to say to my viewers is we have to become more sophisticated consumers of media.

I mean, my heart was changed a little bit by this conversation. I always think about the consumption of celebrity culture as something that, I don`t know, it says something maybe not so good about us, that we are trying to fill a hole, that we`re acting out our envy. I wrote an entire book about how the fact is that we become more narcissistic as individuals, and therefore, more narcissistic as a culture.

But, the reality is, these guys convinced me, and I hope it`s a trend is that we`re starting to look at more positive things. We`re looking at the royal wedding, we`re looking at people having babies, we`re looking people who have successful relationships, and we understand that those things are inspirational, and we`re starting to invest in those. So, I hope we got it right for you this time, and we will see you on the next DR. DREW.

END