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Serial Killer Appears to be Targeting Prostitutes; Couples in Crisis
Aired April 12, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
A killer appears to be victimizing prostitutes. Women who choose the life know all about the dangers. So why do they do it?
And couples in crisis. David Arquette`s breakup with Courteney Cox seemed better than many marriages. What can they teach us?
Then, women, it is your turn. Find out from men what they want from you.
Let`s get started.
All right. Now, is there a serial killer on the loose in New York? And is he targeting prostitutes? It`s starting to seem like it.
Earlier today, police helicopters were buzzing above an area of Long Island, looking for more victims. Watch this and we`ll talk about who these women are and whether or not they`re actually drawn to dangerous situations.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What appears to be a human skull.
PINSKY (voice-over): More gruesome discoveries in New York, the remains of possible ninth and tenth victim and a string of murders that may stretch back a decade. There is a disturbing trend here. At least four of the victims were escorts advertising on Web sites like Craigslist. The world`s oldest profession is meeting the Internet`s newest technology.
And ladies of the night seek clients in the seedy, anonymous underbelly of the Web. Such convenient prey for men who do this.
Cybersex is a business, bold and brutal. The technology may be new, but one question echoes across the millennia -- what drives women to sell themselves into such a dangerous and degrading trade?
PINSKY: Joining me here today are Dr. Martin McCombs and Dianne Amato. Both are with the Mary Magdalene Project in Los Angeles. They help transition women out of prosecution.
And Dr. McCombs, you`ve helped hundreds of women escape the business, as I suppose some call it. And you`ve accumulated a bunch of rather really interesting and I think startling statistics. Let`s look at them right here, and I want you to talk about them a little bit.
MARTIN MCCOMBS, PH.D., EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MARY MAGDALENE PROJECT: Sure.
Well, the Mary Magdalene Project has been involved in this work for over 31 years. And in that time, we`ve learned from our own data collection and comparing it to others that about 100 percent of the women who end up coming to us for treatment or participated in any of our jail surveys have histories of significant child sexual molestation, about 87 percent. A hundred percent of them will report coming from domestic violence situations and abusive situations.
PINSKY: This is what drives me crazy, when parents go, no, we`re fine now, we`re fine. We used to beat each other up, and, yes, I wasn`t home much when the kid was little, but she can`t remember that. But of course this has a shattering impact.
I think you call it soul-lacerating impact.
MCCOMBS: I do think it`s a soul-lacerating impact. When a young female is being molested in her home, she`s driven into two forced choices. One is to tolerate the situation and have damaged self-esteem for the rest of her life until she gets treatment, or the other is to run away, and then she`s fodder for pimps on the streets.
PINSKY: Which is another thing I`ve noticed, that if a child runs away and stays away, again, approaching 100 percent probability of some form of abuse in the home. Also a lot of drugs and alcohol.
Is that right?
MCCOMBS: About 70 percent of them have some experience of use of drugs or alcohol. Sometimes that`s because the experience of being a prostitute was so debilitating. They wanted to get out of their heads and bodies. Sometimes it was because of the drugs and alcohol.
PINSKY: So, Dianne, you were a former prostitute. Can you tell us a little about your background?
AMATO: I came from a middle-class working background. I think I just got lost in between the cracks. I grew up in San Francisco, met a guy, and I kind of call him a boyfriend pimp, because he started out as a boyfriend and then turned into a pimp.
PINSKY: Wow. So he started pimping you to other people?
PINSKY: And were there drugs and alcohol involved in that?
AMATO: Not in the beginning, no.
PINSKY: So you used the drugs and alcohol to numb, to tolerate the lifestyle?
PINSKY: Was your thinking disturbed about being a prostitute? In other words, were you defensive about it, did you say it was something you liked doing when you were in it? I hear that a lot from people that strip and are in prostitution.
AMATO: I didn`t want to do it at first. I look back and think, why did I do it? Why did I go for it? Low self-esteem, thought I was in love, possible molestation in my past.
PINSKY: But what I`m asking, though, is when you`re in it, I hear an awful lot of defensiveness by people in the sex industry, generally defending it, saying it works for them, it`s a great way to make money.
Were you thinking that way as well?
AMATO: Of course. When I was in it, my self-esteem was great in the context of prostitution, in the context of that life.
PINSKY: How did you hit bottom? How did you finally change? How did you get out?
AMATO: I hit 35. I couldn`t do it anymore. I just didn`t know what to do. So I decided to go to school, and I kind of clogged my way out of it through school and through therapy.
MCCOMBS: You know, it`s not surprising that people will talk about that it`s a positive experience while they`re in it. It`s a real subculture. Part of our challenge in getting our women out of prostitution and into a new life is teaching them how to engage in a better and different culture, in what they call straight culture.
PINSKY: All right. Well, a lot of what got us into this conversation was the violence or the remnants of the violence in New York. So let`s get into that topic with this little video piece.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERRE GILBERT, SISTER OF SHANNAN GILBERT: Nobody should deserve to just be sitting in a ditch somewhere, you know, regardless of what they did. It`s nobody`s right to kill somebody. You know? And that was our sister. We just want her found.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was one of the -- that was the sister of one of the victims in New York.
So I`m going to play a little Nancy Grace here. Who are these animals that go do this? Have you ever been exposed to anybody like this? Are women drawn to the danger of this situation in some way? What is it like for the women that are in the presence of guys like this?
AMATO: I think it`s really scary. I think you take a chance every time you turn a date.
PINSKY: Do you think that? Is that going through your mind every time?
AMATO: A little bit, but you`re driven to make the money. You`re in the lifestyle. It`s an addiction to the lifestyle, and fast money as well.
PINSKY: Did you ever encounter an animal like this?
AMATO: I`ve had guns pulled on me. Not to this extent, but --
PINSKY: Dr. McCombs, is that a common experience for prostitutes?
MCCOMBS: Yes. Women prostitutes are at nine times greater risk for being murdered on the job than any other woman in any other job in the United States.
PINSKY: Who are the murderers? Who are these guys?
MCCOMBS: I think they`re people who grew up in our society that got the message that women were second class citizens.
PINSKY: Really? I`ve talked to women that have been in front of these guys. These guys, they`re bizarre, they do horrible things to them, and they escape, but for the grace of God. They, too, must have been ritualistically or horribly abused in some way themselves, these murderers.
PINSKY: Not to excuse anything that`s going on there. Right?
MCCOMBS: I don`t mean to imply that every person that solicits a prostitute is going to end up murdering them. But they must already decide that this woman can be used for something that they want.
PINSKY: All right. Here`s another video piece. This is from the police commissioner in Suffolk County, New York. And he had this strong and alarming message for prostitutes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COMMISSIONER RICHARD DORMER, SUFFOLK COUNTY POLICE DEPT.: A special warning to women that are engaged in the escort business. They should be very careful with their contacts. You know, the first four bodies have been identified, and they were in the escort business. And so they have to be cautious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Boy, and there`s sort of no one to advocate on their behalf, is there, Dianne?
PINSKY: I mean, it`s really sad.
And again, as we`ve said, these are women that have 100 percent probability of abuse, they`re the children for whom we are crying today, and now no one to advocate for these women.
How do we save these women? That`s the question for each of you.
MCCOMBS: I think we need exit support programs and new laws and new ways of understanding how these women ended up getting in these positions.
PINSKY: Do we need to change our culture or our attitudes about this?
MCCOMBS: Yes, our culture and our attitudes. And I`d like that to happen now. But since it`s not going to happen now, I`d like us to focus on what we can handle, which is helping women out of the history -- out of the experience of being a prostitute by programs like the Mary Magdalene Project, more funding for things that matter to help women increase their choices. I would like to retrain the way our culture deals with women.
PINSKY: That would be nice.
Dianne, 10 seconds. Last thoughts?
AMATO: They are somebody`s mother, daughter, sister, aunt, and they need mentors.
PINSKY: And they`re struggling to survive.
AMATO: Yes. They need mentors and programs to help them through.
PINSKY: All right.
When we come back, couples in crisis. If you`re in a sexless marriage, violent relationship, or unhappy union, I`m going to try to help, after this.
PINSKY: If you`ve got a question for me or any of my guests, you can contact us at CNN.com/DrDrew.
Now, Ladies, listen up. We`re going to be talking to men about what`s really going on in their dome. Not much, but -- no, it`s actually a very good piece. You`re going to want to stay tuned for that. That`s happening a little later.
But joining me now is Brooke Anderson from HLN`s "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT."
Now, Brooke, David Arquette made some news in the past 24 hours about his breakup with Courteney Cox. Let`s all take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID ARQUETTE, ACTOR: Anybody`s who`s gone through something like this knows it`s really difficult. And people are complicated. We`re complicated creatures.
And the one thing I do know is that we`re a family. We will be together forever, regardless if we`re married or not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Brooke, it sounds like things are pretty amicable with them.
BROOKE ANDERSON, ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. Absolutely.
They seemed happy at the premiere of their movie "Scream 4" last night, Dr. Drew. And, you know, we all know that breakups are never easy. And David has certainly acknowledged that.
But there is nothing mean-spirited or negative about this breakup, about this separation, at least not that we`ve seen or that we`ve heard. And listen to this, Dr. Drew. And I think this is key.
They have a daughter together, a 6-year-old daughter, Coco. And they are fiercely protective of her and they want to love on her and just dote on her. And, in fact, they recently took a trip to Disney World. They were there together with Coco having a fun family time.
PINSKY: Their priority, then, seems to be co-parenting rather than reconciling their marriage. Is that correct ?
ANDERSON: Well, I don`t know exactly the order of their priorities. But I do know that their child is top of the list. And I do know also that David has said that he wants to reconcile.
And Dr. Drew, you may remember, when they first broke up back in October, David over-shared on Howard Stern`s radio show. He talked about their sex life, he talked about so many intimate details.
You know, I thought, this is disrespectful. But I honestly think that`s a part of who David is. He is brutally honest. He`s an open book.
And so many celebrities are so guarded when it comes to their personal lives. You know this. I know this. It takes a lot to kind of crack through that.
David is the complete opposite. And he means well. In fact, he apologized if he had hurt anyone with everything that he had shared. So, he`s just doing his best.
He showed up at the premiere last night. No kooky outfit. He looked great, ready to do business.
And, in fact, he told Jimmy Kimmel that it`s not awkward at all promoting this movie with Courteney Cox. So they have a very positive, communicative relationship right now, it seems.
PINSKY: Thank you, Brooke. Thanks very much.
And I`ve met David many, many times. He`s one of the nicest guys you`d ever meet in any environment.
He`s in recovery now. I hear it`s going very, very well, in spite of the ambivalent things people talk about in the press. He`s doing very well we. He`s a great guy. We wish them well.
And the fact that they`re interested in reconciling is a very, very enticing, good piece of news for those two.
So, couples in crisis may wish they were as civil as Courteney and David. Sadly, that`s not the case for everyone.
Tonight, we`re going to be joined by Angie and Terry Drew. They are brave enough to come forward and talk about a specific fact that is terribly common, the inability -- well, it`s let`s called a sexless marriage. But that, of course, isn`t the only problem. It`s always in a context of many other dynamics in a relationship.
So, Terry, Angie, thank you very much for joining us.
Let me just ask some basic questions. How long have you guys been married?
ANGIE DREW, TIRED OF SEXLESS MARRIAGE: Twenty-one years.
PINSKY: How many kids?
A. DREW: Four kids.
PINSKY: That`s fantastic.
Are you guys committed to each other because of the kids, because of one another?
TERRY DREW, TIRED OF SEXLESS MARRIAGE: Both.
A. DREW: Both.
A. DREW: Yes.
PINSKY: So basically you love each other.
A. DREW: Oh, definitely.
PINSKY: And suddenly there became less sex in the marriage.
A. DREW: Yes.
PINSKY: When did that happen?
A. DREW: I would say pretty much after our first daughter was born.
PINSKY: First daughter, which, again, I want to help people understand this in our viewing audience. So I`m going to stop every so often and throw out a couple of ideas.
Very common in the first year after delivery, particularly if you`re breast-feeding.
And how was that for you, Terry? That`s kind of frustrating and difficult. You feel rejected.
T. DREW: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Did you know that that was a common thing at that point?
T. DREW: At that point I assumed that that`s what the issue was.
PINSKY: OK. So you gave her a little space, you were a supportive husband, dad. And then what happened?
A. DREW: Then we had another kid.
A. DREW: And then --
PINSKY: So somewhere in there you had sex.
A. DREW: Right.
A. DREW: Right. I think it just -- life got in the way.
PINSKY: Stress, work --
A. DREW: Stress, work --
PINSKY: -- raising kids.
A. DREW: Yes. Exactly.
PINSKY: Another common thing that people complain about. It`s hard to be -- have that time for physical and emotional intimacy.
A. DREW: Right.
PINSKY: Right? And women especially need that space in order to feel intimate and sexual, right?
A. DREW: Yes. And that`s what I`ve tried talking to him about over the years, yes.
PINSKY: And did he listen to you?
A. DREW: Yes and no. It would start off good, and he would meet my emotional needs. And then it would just kind of back off and we`d kind of go -- it`s been, like, a vicious cycle, off and on for all these years.
PINSKY: So it would be better and then worse?
A. DREW: Yes.
PINSKY: When it was better, what did you do, Terry, do make it better?
T. DREW: I`m not -- I`m not exactly sure what worked. I mean, I`ve tried a lot of --
PINSKY: That makes Angie angry. I saw her back just stiffen up just for the fact that you didn`t even know.
What was it he did?
A. DREW: The little things.
PINSKY: Like what? Did it make you angry that he said that?
A. DREW: Well, yes, because it`s, like, we`ve been together 27 years. I feel like he should know by this point, you know, what --
PINSKY: One of the themes on this show is, as men, we`re pretty simple and we don`t always clue into things the way we should. We have to be reminded.
What were you trying to get him to do?
A. DREW: Just the little things. It`s like, I know he needs -- I need the affection, the holding the hands, cuddling in bed. He cannot stand -- I shouldn`t say he can`t stand doing it, he just doesn`t do it. I need that emotion connection.
PINSKY: All the time?
A. DREW: All the time. And usually the only time he does it is when he`s anticipating something to happen.
PINSKY: I hear that complaint a lot from women, too. So, when he comes up and is affectionate to you, maybe you push him away.
A. DREW: Then I get -- yes.
PINSKY: Because his expectation is sex.
A. DREW: Yes, exactly.
PINSKY: So we have to be able to give physical intimacy and tenderness without the expectation of sex.
Can you do that, Terry?
T. DREW: I can do it. It gets frustrating You know?
PINSKY: Well, sure it does.
Do you kids having any problem with biological drive? Because that is another piece. You guys are in your 40s now, if you don`t mind me saying so. And that`s when women typically hit perimenopause or even and post- menopause for some women, and things change.
A. DREW: No. Actually, I had a hysterectomy, like, five years ago. And I heard different issues from different people about, you know --
PINSKY: Do you have your ovaries still?
A. DREW: No. And I just had those taken out a year ago.
PINSKY: So are you on replacement therapy, hormones?
A. DREW: No, the doctor doesn`t want to put me on anything. And I haven`t really had any issues.
PINSKY: So your drive is still intact?
A. DREW: Yes, when it`s there. I mean, it hasn`t really gone down --
PINSKY: Terry takes exception to that.
A. DREW: OK.
PINSKY: Terry takes exception.
What are you saying?
T. DREW: Well, to say the drive is still intact, I don`t know that the drive has been there for 18 years.
PINSKY: Since the first baby.
T. DREW: So I don`t think the older she`s getting is making it any worse. I just don`t think it`s --
PINSKY: It`s not been there for a long time.
T. DREW: Yes.
PINSKY: All right. Again, as an aside, that is one of the -- these days, given that we`re all marrying later and living longer, one of the number one complaints I hear about is women loss of drive. And, of course, what you started thinking, women take an inventory and are thinking about how their emotional needs aren`t getting met, if that only space were available, I`d feel more sexually driven.
But, very commonly, your ovaries produce testosterone as well as estrogen. And without estrogen, testosterone and progesterone in adequate doses, it`s hard to feel sexual. It really is.
And men, we drop off a little bit, too. But women can fall off a cliff.
And please, anyone out there -- and I`m going to refer you guys to somebody before you leave here -- get evaluated. There are bioidentical hormones out there, there`s various kinds of hormone replacements. Yes, there are certain risks with these things, but repairing a relationship can potentially be worth those risks.
A. DREW: Oh, definitely.
PINSKY: Now, Angie, you had a -- have you had difficulty in relationships? You had a difficult childhood I read somewhere.
A. DREW: Yes.
PINSKY: Tell me about that.
A. DREW: Well, from the time I, like, was 9, my dad raised us. My mom -- my parents were divorced when I was 6. And after 9, I lived with my dad. My mom really wasn`t in the picture.
PINSKY: So you were abandoned by your mom.
A. DREW: Pretty much.
PINSKY: Was that painful?
A. DREW: Oh, yes, definitely.
PINSKY: Even thinking about it now makes you teary. I know. Yes.
I mean, parents, we have a huge impact on our kids. And those sorts of experiences can be influencing what`s going on here.
I notice you`re very protective of her and her feelings.
T. DREW: Yes.
A. DREW: Yes, he knows.
So I was raised, you know, like through my teenage years, you know, like, when -- I have got two girls, and when they need their mom the most, mine wasn`t there. And, you know, I dealt a lot with her -- a lot with drug and alcohol abuse with her.
PINSKY: OK. Hold on with that thought, because that`s a whole other big topic.
So we`re going to be back with Terry and Angie and continue this story after this.
PINSKY: I am talking with Terry and A. DREW, who have been suffering through a sexless marriage. But there`s much more going on, as there always is. We`re kind of zeroing in on Angie`s story.
And you were saying your mom had abandoned you when you were 9 years old? Is that right?
A. DREW: About 9 or 10, yes.
PINSKY: Yes. And you`re obviously tearful and very painful.
In my experience, the only times moms really abandon kids is when they have addiction. Is that what the story was here?
A. DREW: Yes, definitely. She started off with alcohol, and then she ended up in different relationships with abusive men.
PINSKY: Did you have to witness that?
A. DREW: Yes.
PINSKY: Did you go through a period of time where you chased after abusive, unavailable men?
A. DREW: No.
PINSKY: You avoided that?
A. DREW: No. Yes, I avoided that.
PINSKY: You avoided that.
And Terry, in your family of origin, was it a stable family system?
T. DREW: Yes, very.
PINSKY: And how has Terry been as a husband?
A. DREW: Excellent.
PINSKY: You love him?
A. DREW: Oh, gosh, yes. He`s my life.
PINSKY: So there`s a fitness here that`s working for you guys.
You`re getting sad again. What are you getting sad about?
A. DREW: Nothing. Oh, it`s just -- he means the world to me.
PINSKY: Which is why we`re here and why you committed, and hopefully we can help with this. You know?
A. DREW: Yes.
PINSKY: You seem very tuned in. Many kids that have been through these abusive kinds of -- or abandoning of family systems tend to pursue abandoning, abusive partners. And when the partner is really available, sometimes it feels uncomfortable.
Have you had to go through a period like that with Terry, where you felt clingy and uncomfortable?
A. DREW: No. No, I don`t think so.
PINSKY: So you`ve always been able to have stable relationships and closeness?
A. DREW: Yes.
PINSKY: Intimacy is a comfortable place for you.
A. DREW: Yes. I mean, it is --
PINSKY: Physical and emotional.
A. DREW: We have issues with some communication, you know, and I think that -- well, not so much like when we`re having issues with sex. Sometimes it`s hard for us to communicate what we need from each other. You know --
PINSKY: Terry, do you feel that, too?
T. DREW: Yes.
PINSKY: What specifically would you like to tell her here?
T. DREW: Just -- I don`t know. She needs the emotional -- you know, I need --
PINSKY: What do you need from her?
T. DREW: More physical contact.
PINSKY: How does it make you feel when she rejects you?
T. DREW: Unimportant.
PINSKY: Is it not the case that this is a real tender need for you, and to be rejected by the woman you love is pretty painful?
T. DREW: Oh, very.
PINSKY: Do you know that that`s --
A. DREW: Yes.
PINSKY: He`s been able to express that to you?
A. DREW: Yes. I mean, somewhat. I know he pulls away.
PINSKY: Because it`s a tender need. And to be rejected is being hurt again.
A. DREW: Yes. No, and I do understand that.
Though there`s a lot going on here, you guys have a tremendous amount to be thankful for and a tremendous amount that`s really, really working. If I had to zero in on one thing here, it would be this biological thing that`s probably been with you since the birth of the first child.
A. DREW: OK.
PINSKY: And I very much want to give you a referral. I know exactly the right person.
It`s unfortunately out here, but I can hopefully get a consult for you before you go back to Chicago, and maybe she can keep things going at a distance. And just restoring the biology sometimes, particularly when things are working interpersonally, can make a world, world of difference.
So hold tight. We`ll check in with you.
I`m going to check in again with you. That`s for sure.
I want to thank Terry and Angie for joining us. I hope this makes a difference for them.
And we are going to be changing gears here. We are going to ask, what are men really thinking? It`s far more simple than you might imagine.
But we`ve got a lot of thoughts. We`ve got a good panel put together for you.
And so, women, if you want to know, you are going to find out next.
Stay with us.
PINSKY: All right. Now, we`ve got something for the women out there, something very important. So, I want you all to pay attention. Do you ever wonder what`s going on in a male`s head? What`s he thinking? We`re going to get some answers right now. We are going to smack it down with some experts, let`s say. We`re going inside the male brain.
Psycho Mike Catherwood is a radio personality, works with me on the show "Love Line." So, he knows a little something here there. Michael Yo is a celebrity correspondent for E! And actor comedian, Hal Sparks is here. He is at the Las Vegas Hilton this Wednesday through Sunday. All right, guys. Women always asked what`s on your mind, right?
MICHAEL YO, CELEBRITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
PINSKY: And usually what do we respond with?
PINSKY: What are you thinking? Penny for your thought. Nothing.
YO: Nothing. Nothing`s on my mind.
PINSKY: And so, what is actually going on in your mind when you say that?
HAL SPARKS, ACTOR/COMEDIAN: Nothing.
SPARKS: Spatial damage control. You`re actually looking for if you`re going, OK, what does she really want to hear versus what can I tell her? Is the question she`s actually asking, is that what she wants to know or is that --
PINSKY: Here is the thing I want to say the most strong term possible, and I agree mostly with Michael Yo said, which is seriously, women are like the flight deck of a 747. Each plane is different. Men, hamster on a wheel.
PINSKY: There`s absolutely nothing going on. We say that nothing going on.
YO: It so true. It`s so true because when a girl, a girl when she asks you a question, she surprises you. What`s going on? What are you thinking? Really, nothing. Nothing is going on.
SPARKS: They recently did scientific work around the idea of Neanderthal into modern men, you know, that transitional period.
SPARKS: And they found out that genetically, they were able to block out that men slept with Neanderthal women.
PINSKY: Yes, Homo Sapiens slept Neanderthal women.
SPARKS: But human women did not sleep with Neanderthal men.
PINSKY: That tells you all you need to know. That tells you everything --
MIKE CATHERWOOD, RADIO PERSONALITY: I also think that, you know, as you said, women are so profoundly unique, in comparison --
PINSKY: One from another.
CATHERWOOD: From each other.
CATHERWOOD: But, one thing I think all women share is they`re a lot more curious in general than men are.
PINSKY: But they want us to be more complicated than we are.
CATHERWOOD: So, when they say what`s going on in your head, they assume like they do, there is something there.
CATHERWOOD: If we`re not at work, there really isn`t much going on.
PINSKY: All right. Here`s a question tons of women wanted my producer to ask. Why won`t he marry me? There it is. Why won`t he marry me?
CATHERWOOD: Because he doesn`t like you.
PINSKY: Well, there`s that one. What`s the more -- what if he does like you?
CATHERWOOD: He has another girlfriend.
PINSKY: Well, that`s a possibility.
YO: I think guys are just afraid of commitment, especially with all your friends around you that are married. I think --
SPARKS: We pick stupid careers and stick with them even when they don`t pay and they lead nowhere. Commitment is not the issue.
YO: But what I was saying is that when all your friends are around you and they`re married and they`re saying, hey, man, it`s so awesome that you`re single. You need to live that life. Keep it up because marriage life is not great.
SPARKS: Every comedian I ever see on stage who talks about marriage, talks about in the most dire terms, it`s a horrible institution from the inside out, and everybody in the audience, male or female, is laughing ferociously at the concept.
YO: I don`t know --
SPARKS: So I -- it`s not -- marriage is not its best salesperson.
PINSKY: I have a great -- you have a good --
CATHERWOOD: It`s true. I mean, I would use you as kind of quintessential example of when it does work.
PINSKY: But I`ll tell you what was necessary for me. I was as much of an idiot as anybody. I think all men have to be at the right time. They can let the right person go by if they`re not at the right time in their life, and that means, typically, in their career.
CATHERWOOD: And Dr. Drew, what do I say every night when it comes to men? On "Love Line," what do I echo every single night is that no one on earth should take anything a man says, does, or has going for him seriously until he`s about 30.
PINSKY: Yes. So, whatever comes out of a male`s mouth before the age of 30, disregard.
CATHERWOOD: And there`s like a two-year margin there for the really accelerated guy, it`s 28. For the guys like me, it`s 32, maybe even a little later, but for the most part, young men are just baboons because you have this massive amount of testosterone running through you.
SPARKS: Unlike the 50-year-old you see at strip clubs who really have their act together. Actually, that`s -- you know what I mean? It`s a level of absurdity. I think there`s cultural chunks, and I think not to quote Carlin too heavily, but I think 80 percent of any group is pretty much a wash. And so, if you`re going to dictate the existence of, you know, even the highest order amongst them by the mass, then you`re looking for trouble.
PINSKY: Here`s another question.
SPARKS: Chunk our bad women and chunk --
PINSKY: Another question. Boy, how you`re just uplifting today. What do men --
SPARKS: I`m arguing that we`re not all stupid.
PINSKY: What do men notice first about a woman?
YO: I mean, I can speak for myself. I notice the eyes and legs. Obviously, the face. I mean, if you`re not attracted to her face, you`re not going to be attracted to the woman. You don`t see personalities.
CATHERWOOD: Handbag, of course.
CATHERWOOD: Yes, I mean --
CATHERWOOD: One of those bootleg handbags.
SPARKS: I think eyes are a pop factor because when you`re standing from whatever physical attributes you actually like in a crowd, the one thing that will shift a woman out of that crowd of people is eye contact and the idea that they may be interested.
YO: And toes. And toes. If you have nasty toes, like, if the girl has nasty toes, I can`t deal with it.
PINSKY: OK. So, you`re establishing, Michael --
YO: Yes, you`re not a white guy.
PINSKY: Establish Michael is into some weird stuff, but here`s the deal. You got to remember, women don`t understand what you`re talking about when we describe what you guys have just gone through here. Men, correct me if I`m wrong, you remember the terminator, we go zzzzzz. That`s sort of what our brain does, does it not?
PINSKY: And it`s not going down to the shoes. It`s sort of assessing symmetry. Really, what they`re doing is that -- people don`t like to admit this, but in reality, our biology is dictating that we`re assessing fecundity, fertility, health. Those are the kinds that we`re looking for, but in your case, it distills down to -- come on, Mike.
CATHERWOOD: Yes. Desire to mate with.
PINSKY: What are you ultimately -- yes, it might be all that symmetry and stuff, but what is it to steal from -- you, as a person, what do you experience?
CATHERWOOD: Is she in my wheelhouse? Like, I mean --
PINSKY: Which is what? What`s your wheelhouse?
CATHERWOOD: For me, it`s, you know, I mean, I have a pretty narrow margin of what I like in a woman physically.
PINSKY: But if she`s not in the wheelhouse and you get to know her, no chance?
CATHERWOOD: No. Of course not. I`m a little more evolved than that, but I think that there`s less of a chance with guys being won over by a girl`s personality than vice versa.
PINSKY: Agreed, Michael?
YO: Yes, I agree with him, but I think when you`re a younger guy, you just want the hookup, but then, when you get older, you look at women and say, OK, you know, my kids would look like this or I think we would get along because of this. I think you grow out of the --
SPARKS: Genetics (ph) aside, the truth is there`s as much of a status seek and a cultural override that kicks in both for men and for women that`s sort of disregarded by that part, that women will look for a guy who may have some genetic markers that they appreciate, but they also might look for financial security as a part. Depending on the social structure of where they came up.
PINSKY: That is a -- I don`t want to get too deeply into that, but anthropologists and social biologists have always documented that women look for a male with resources, whether it`s someone -- which is plains of the Savannah -- no. Plains of the Savannah, you`re looking for a guy that has control of the field and give you food and help you raise your kids. That`s not cultural. Should you sleep with a guy on the first date? Is that a kiss of death or not? That`s one of the questions they ask.
SPARKS: Don`t sleep with him on the first date if you`re terrible in bed. Save it. That`s what most people who are terrible in bed do is save it.
YO: I think women worry about, oh, I`ve been dating this guy a month, but as soon as I sleep with him, he`s not going to call back. You know what, if you feel something for him and you`re acting like an adult and you wrap it up, have sex on the first night. And if he calls you the next day, then you don`t have to worry about that whole month.
CATHERWOOD: I have sex before the first date or I`m not even going to continue.
YO: My last two girlfriends I had sex with on the first night. So, I mean, it doesn`t matter. Guys don`t care.
CATHERWOOD: You`re not dating them anymore?
YO: Well, a year and a half later.
CATHERWOOD: Right. Fantastic.
PINSKY: Some guys it does matter for. So, I think does it not -- I agree with you that it doesn`t matter for a lot of guys, but for some guys I`ve talked -- we`ve heard this on "Love Line."
CATHERWOOD: I agree with Mr. Yo that if you really have a connection with someone outside of the bedroom, if the personalities mesh, you really feel like there`s a connection there, whether or not you had sex on the first date is completely irrelevant.
PINSKY: Certainly as you get older, it`s something you`re not going to waste a lot of time getting to, is that right?
PINSKY: You said your biological clock is ticking.
YO: I am. I`m 35, I`m single. I`m ready to get married. I`m ready to find my girl. You know?
PINSKY: All right. We`re going inside the male mind.
PINSKY: Now, I can tell you, a woman wrote this copy I`m about to read. Ready? More of the mystery explained when we come back. We`ve established there`s no mystery in the male mind. That`s what you got -- you really got to take home here is that the male mind is pretty simple. Think of the hamster on the wheel. That`s more likely, wouldn`t you say?
SPARKS: Depressing thought --
SPARKS: You`re arguing for the overt mechanical simplicity of the male mind and I`m the depress --
PINSKY: Well, let`s put it this way. We, the four of us, share a "Y" chromosome. It has a very tiny bit of DNA in it. It`s been decaying for years. There`s a lot of information that too large "X" chromosomes which make women so different from one another. We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Men in that forms are like the "The New York Times" Sunday crossword puzzle, tricky, complicated, and you`re never really sure you got the right answer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m making out with this guy. And he mentions that he`s going out of town so he`s going to be out of touch.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Run.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe he lost my number or is out of town or got hit by a cab.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Or maybe he has no interest in seeing you again.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve been dating since I was 15. I`m exhausted. Where is he?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who, the white knight? That only happens in fairytales.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Well, that opening clip from "Sex and the City" could not have been more wrong. We are not like crossword puzzles. We are not complicated. We are human beings, but what makes us male, I`m going to repeat what I said going out, the thing that we all share as male is a very small amount of genetic information. So, we`re tend to be all alike. What makes us male tends to be not as complex genetically is what makes a woman a woman.
And women have been driving themselves crazy for years, what are men thinking, what`s the strategy, why isn`t he calling me back? Why don`t you call back? Let`s start with that. When you don`t call back what does that mean?
YO: Not interested.
PINSKY: Not interested.
PINSKY: Not interested.
SPARKS: Not necessarily.
PINSKY: Oh, not necessarily? Tell me.
SPARKS: Again, there are cultural overrides where you`re worried about whether you call her back too quickly, she thinks you`re desperate. If you think she`s desperate to hear from you, that`s a little concerning. There`s five or ten reasons why not to call somebody back immediately.
YO: That`s not the question. Call back.
PINSKY: If you didn`t call back, why didn`t you call back?
SPARKS: It could be a better offer came along. She turned out to be awful. The sex that she held back for so long was actually terrible. I mean, like I said --
PINSKY: Not interested summarized it nicely. The women outside our studio -- this woman outside of studio had a basic question for us. Let`s check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So I want to know, where is the best place to meet some guys?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: You know, these days, I`m sort of surprised to hear that question when you`ve got the internet and all these sort of new ways of making contact. You`re smiling, Mike.
YO: The best place to meet someone whether it`s a boy or a girl is where you`re not usually going to meet boys and girls.
YO: Nightclubs, bars, places like that, probably a bad place to meet someone for a worthwhile meaningful relationship. I`m not saying it doesn`t happen, but chances are low at the places where you typically go to meet someone to develop a relationship that you`re going to actually meet someone there.
SPARKS: That`s why there are 6.5 billion people on the earth. Apparently, people are meeting, you know --
PINSKY: Somewhere they are meeting.
SPARKS: The same ritualistic cultural points. Libraries and parking lots are not big on the list. It`s the meat markets and works, quite frankly. Most people are meeting people at work. And going, I can`t believe I met the one. What are the odds in the world? 6.5 billion people. I met the one, and we both work at all state. That`s why people settle.
PINSKY: But the one data that always comes out, and this has been in all cultures, in all circumstances, that the person you`re mostly likely to be with is the person in proximity to you. And it has to be a possibility. Whether it`s in your apartment building or it`s in your school. And, by the way, if you want to go to a place, put yourself in environments where you`re about to be near people that are going to share the kind of interests that you do.
Facebook, here is Julie. She asks, and this drives me crazy. Is it all about the game? Are we really supposed to act not interested in order for men to be interested in us? Come on, Mike.
SPARKS: First of all, try looking like your actual Facebook picture. This applies to both sexes. I think that`s -- if you want to boil it down to what people want, I think they want you to look like what your online personality says you do. That`s a start.
YO: I think that when you first meet somebody, yes, there is a little game involved, but it` not like you don`t want them to call you back or you don`t want to be overly - oh, my God, I like you so much. Let`s go out, let`s go out, and then that`s annoying.
CATHERWOOD: If I found a girl that really did it for me, and she made things easier for me by letting me know she was interested, oh, that`d be awesome.
PINSKY: Yes. Even asking you out.
CATHERWOOD: If she broke the gender roles and actually maybe took control, I`d love that.
YO: Why don`t women just come up to us and ask us out?
PINSKY: It`s hard for them. Those are culturally engrained attitudes, certainly. They feel like they`re being too forward. Also, they and don`t know how to negotiate. We don`t train women to negotiate. We don`t train men how to say no either. It`d be weird if it somebody you didn`t want to respond to, and they`re not typically geared to respond a rejection, but the fact is, and I would agree with you, guys, that if somebody is interested, a male, you`re like a freight train. You can`t get rid of them, right? If they`re really interested, you will know it. There`s no doubt.
SPARKS: Well, there`s also lurkers in the world. You know, like the -- you look at clubs, there`s two categories of guys. There`s the, like, the holding a drink grinders who come up and just no amount of no from her will drive them away, and then, there`s the guy in the way back of the club who thinks he has a relationship with you who`s just kind of staring over his beverage, you know, with all kinds of stuff floating in his head.
YO: I know if you`re not interested in someone. There`s so many ways to reach you now. That`s kind of scary, like, if you don`t respond to the phone call, they`ll text you. If you don`t respond to that, they`ll Facebook you. If you don`t respond to that, they`ll tweet you. It`s scary put there.
CATHERWOOD: Just like he said, women aren`t necessarily taught how to take the upper hand when it comes to relationships. Men aren`t necessarily taught how to be in a committed relationship. When you`re young, especially American men, it`s not like you go through this boot camp of what it means to be intimate and stuff. What you`re taught is to be ambitious, to be independent, to focus on your career, to be successful, and that`s why we value that as men much more than we do having a relationship.
SPARKS: Dr. Drew`s point earlier, that`s what women go for, ultimately. When you`ve got an established fact mechanically, that women are going to go with a guy with resources, then, the practice for being in a sound structural family isn`t what`s going to draw you a mate to begin with.
PINSKY: I have to ask you a really tough question. Do you think that fact is why guys delay getting married, they want to see who they are when they have resources and what`s available to them?
SPARKS: Depends on what part of the country they`re in.
YO: Because that`s a harsh fact. It is a harsh fact if that`s true.
CATHERWOOD: I know for myself, and I`ve already been through a marriage that failed. And I think that now that I`m a little older and I have a chance to maybe explore what it means to truly be successful --
PINSKY: Be successful and be in the marketplace.
CATHERWOOD: Right. I`m totally approaching the idea of a relationship in a totally different way. Not because I`m older and more mature --
PINSKY: Should have waited and not got married until --
CATHERWOOD: I definitely should have waited, but not because I`d be more successful and I`d be more appealing to a lady. I should have waited because I`m more mature now and I have a better idea of what it means to be intimate and considerate of someone else`s feelings.
YO: I`ve always wanted to be in a relationship when I`m more successful because I want to be able to provide for my family because I`m thinking kids --
PINSKY: This is the flip side of this, right? You want to be the provider which is kind of cultural thing --
SPARKS: The big cultural divide ultimately boils down to, in the south children make adults and in the north adults make children. The idea being you mature first then you have children and in the south, a lot of times, you have children and that`s what matures you in the process.
PINSKY: God knows we see tons of that with the teen pregnancy, I think, we`ve been going through for many, many years. Here is another question. This is time honored that women seem to not quite understand. How do I get his attention is the question. How do I --
YO: Come up and talk to us. I mean, make -- I mean, just come up --
PINSKY: Do they need to wear the crazy provocative clothing?
YO: I like a woman with confidence that will just come up and say, hey, you know what, I was checking you out and I think you`re --
PINSKY: I hear that from women all the time. It`s the same as what they like.
SPARKS: Because in the fantasy of the conversation you just had in your head, you were picturing a woman, you found soundly attractive that was exactly your type. That`s the difference. Because you don`t actually want that from anybody who doesn`t follow those categories.
SPARKS: If you were, you would drive her away. And even if she went and cleaned herself up and got her exactly where you wanted her to be, she would have the strength and confidence to come back to try again.
PINSKY: So, how does a woman know if they come up and try to negotiate being this confident person that you`re not interested, that you want to go?
YO: Because we`d be like, I`m not interested. Just like a woman, hey, can I buy you a drink? No.
PINSKY: So the shutdown. Would you?
CATHERWOOD: It`s tough to say because I can`t really draw on any past experience because it`s not like women that I`m so attracted to or that I`m interested in often come up and talk to me.
PINSKY: All right.
CATHERWOOD: But that would be a great thing if it did happen.
PINSKY: And you`d have to learn to negotiate that which guys are not used to.
When we come back, this is the big one, why do men cheat? A big topic. When we come back.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Hey, Drew. Check out my show tonight, because, you know what, we`re talking about women who cheat on men and why their numbers are increasing. A little turnabout, huh? You don`t want to miss this, Drew.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, why do guys have to lie so much? I don`t understand it. I don`t understand why they lie. Just tell the truth and then, you know, if we want to -- if I want to be with you after that, then I`ll decide. Another thing, why is it up to you whether or not I want to make decisions with my life? I don`t want to move back to Baltimore. Do I have to move back to Baltimore?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: No, honey. You don`t have to move to Baltimore. Nobody does, in fact, but I love Baltimore, but you don`t have to go there. All right. Michael, why do men lie?
YO: I think men lie because any time we tell a woman exactly what`s on our mind, she doesn`t believe us, anyway, and then, she`ll question when we`re being truthful with her, and then, it gets into a big argument.
SPARKS: Men lie for the same reason women lie, because they can`t trust the circumstance more than they trust the truth. So --
PINSKY: They don`t feel safe with you?
SPARKS: Right. Yes. They don`t have the safety in the relationship.
PINSKY: All right. We got two minutes to address the big question which is why do men cheat? I`m just going to start with Hal and go this way.
SPARKS: Same reason women cheat, because their alternate options are higher than the quality they`re getting where they are temporarily, but they don`t want to lose what they have.
PINSKY: Well, women in my experience, but I`ll say Michael, first.
SPARKS: Women cheat more than men.
PINSKY: These days. Go ahead, Michael.
YO: I just think, you know, the guys or the women, like you said, is bored in the relationship. You know, when every day is the same thing and there`s no excitement in it, I think people reach out and that`s when they`re cheating.
CATHERWOOD: And I guess, the relationship that they`re in probably isn`t that solid, but for the reason men cheat mostly, I would imagine, is because a hotter chick offers. I mean, you know --
PINSKY: But what I find is women when they cheat is because they`re not getting their emotional needs met in the relationship, and they usually put the guy on warning multiple, multiple times. And the guy goes, I don`t understand what happens. She took off one day. And she goes, I`ve been telling it for year. You`re not focusing. You`re not paying time with us. You`re out with your friends, whatever it is.
Guys, it kind of breaks down to a couple things. You see if you agree with me on this. Some guys are just duchy and they do it because they can. They`ve been cheating their whole life. They just do that. Be careful those guys. Women that go with the unavailable bad boys are going to get one of those guys very likely, and they set their self up for failure. They know these guys like --
SPARKS: Then the free out, too.
PINSKY: Well, they`re going to change him, though.
YO: Women love to change men.
SPARKS: Women make the same mistake but from different angles. Women will see a seven and go, I can make him a ten. And a guy sees a seven and says, she`ll be good until a ten comes along. It`s the same mistake, it`s just without mechanics.
PINSKY: Depressing for me here. Then, there are guys that are sex addicts and alcoholics, those guys cheat, too, and then, there`s sort of other categories, more of a mixed bag, and I think those guys -- I think what you`re talking about, you guys, which is things aren`t working well in their relationship, they don`t really know why they cheat sometimes, you know --
SPARKS: Guys have emotional needs as well.
PINSKY: Well, that`s the point. I think that`s the point. I don`t think we`re as tuned to that as women are. And so, if they`re not paying attention to their relationship and they find themselves drifting, they don`t even pay attention to why that`s happening. They think it`s a hotter chick.
SPARKS: I think you could say that this woman is a wonderful possibility in my life, and yet, I`m in this relationship and I`m not quite sure the balance of getting out of it versus getting into a new one. And most people monkey branch to their next relationship anyway that way. Cheating is, I mean --
CATHERWOOD: A relationship where you cheat strictly for the sex sometimes can just make you feel better as a man. It makes it like a notch in your belt or some type of --
PINSKY: That`s not good. Remember, everybody, Psycho Mike will be sitting in for Regis this Friday. Yes. And before we -- we have ten seconds. I wanted to find out what your biggest turnoffs are. We`ll have to get to that on the next panel. Thank you all --
YO: Chewing with your mouth open.
PINSKY: Chewing with your mouth open, Mike says. Thank you all for watching. We`ll see you next time.