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CONNECT THE WORLD
Inside bin Laden's Compound; Pakistan's Role
Aired May 3, 2011 - 16:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BECKY ANDERSON, HOST: Unarmed and resisting -- new details about the death of Osama bin Laden. Pakistan says it played a role in the long-term search, but questions still remain over whether officials knew of his hiding place.
So, with the head of al Qaeda gone, it is time to draw a line under the war on terror?
Plus, the Sony saga continues, as hackers steal thousands more credit card details.
Those stories and more tonight as we connect the world.
First, new details emerging about the high stakes raid that killed the world's most wanted terrorist and netted what's being called a mother lode of intelligence. Well, U.S. investigators poring over computer hard drives and more than 100 storage devices seized from Osama bin Laden's million dollar hideout in Pakistan.
(AUDIO GAP) after the 40 minute (AUDIO GAP) U.S. officials say they're looking for clues that can (AUDIO GAP) Al Qaeda, but also signs of a possible support system inside Pakistan that allowed bin Laden to live in undetected luxury just a short drive from Islamabad.
Well, the White House acknowledged today that bin Laden was not armed when he was shot and killed by commandos. A spokesman also addressed whether the U.S. plans to release a photo of bin Laden's body, acknowledging it's a gruesome sight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAY CARNEY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I'll be candid, that there are sensitivities here in terms of the appropriateness of releasing photographs of -- of Osama bin Laden and -- and in the aftermath of this firefight. And we're making an evaluation about the need to do that, because of the sensitivities involved. And -- and we do -- we -- we review this information and -- and make this decision, you know, with the same calculation as we do so many things, which is what, you know, what we're trying to accomplish and -- and does it serve or in any way harm our -- our -- our interests. And that is not just domestic, but globally.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Yes, OK. Well, the raid was risky not only because commandos were unsure what awaited them at the compound, but also because Pakistan was, from all accounts, kept in the dark about the operation.
Well, U.S. officials say Pakistan began scrambling its jets to respond to an unknown incident, as U.S. choppers raced away from the scene.
CNN's Nic Robertson toured the compound's highly fortified perimeter earlier today.
Take a look at this.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's just across the fields here, about 100 yards, where there's already a big crowd of people gathering around there. I can see some soldiers. There's one soldier walking in across the field.
But when you look at this building, look at it there. It's different from all the other buildings around it. It's taller and it's got higher walls. The compound starts right here. You can see how high the wall is.
Look at this. OK. I'm 6'0." My arms maybe another two feet. And that gives you an idea of just how tall the wall is. Of course, there's razor wire at top of it, as well. And if you come back over here, come and stand up over here, we can take a look here and you can get to see the high part of the compound building here.
It was up there, on the second and third floor, where bin Laden was killed -- two shots, one to the head, one to the chest. Well, it's becoming, already, a tourist attraction in and of itself. I mean, look at all the people that are gathered here right now. People have got their cell phones out. They're taking pictures, professional journalists down here and a lot of people just coming to take a look.
And the door here -- a soldier is coming.
How are you?
See, the doors are sealed, these pink labels here and here.
(SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
ROBERTSON: No, no, no, no. They're sealing the doors to the compound.
(voice-over): Behind the doors, blood on the floor. This video was taken just after the fight finished. Now all that damage is off limits.
(on-camera): As you walk around the compound, there's nothing to give away that the world's most wanted terrorist was living inside here. But this is incredibly ironic. Painted on the outside, an advert for a girl's college on the wall of the compound where the world's most wanted terrorist lived.
But think about it. More than that, this man, Osama bin Laden, denied women access to education. His view of Islam denied women the opportunity to progress in life. And here it is, on the outside of the place he was hiding, an advert for girls to get an education.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
ANDERSON: Let's go to the scene, shall we?
Nic is joining me now from very close to that compound -- quite remarkable, Nic, that he was living there and -- and almost inconceivable that the -- the Pakistanis didn't know.
ROBERTSON: It is. And I think perhaps the best clues come from some of the neighbors. And we talked to people who live 50 yards away. And they said whenever children kicked a ball in the compound, the people in the compound, the people in the compound, bin Laden's family, would pay the children to go and buy a new ball, unlike other compounds. They wouldn't let the children come in and get the ball.
So I think you get an idea there that they were secretive. Everyone around there knew that this was a secretive family, that that would be some late night visitors. They assumed that they were rich. Gold merchants was one idea that people had.
It's very rude here and it's against culture to sort of stay on the top of your building and look into somebody else's compound. So you get this idea of secrecy additionally at that compound and a sort of a culture of secrecy, or at least not getting involved in your neighbor's affairs played into that.
So writ larger for the security forces, easily overlooked. And neighbored around really seeming here to tip them off. But it does raise very serious questions.
How could it have been overlooked?
Rich people, the building stood out, high walls. They didn't have Internet. All those clues were always out there -- Becky.
ANDERSON: Yes, lots of clues and nobody picking up on them.
Nic, thank you for that.
It appears the U.S. Special Forces had plenty of practice before launching this raid. Reports say that they built a replica of that compound at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan to stage trial runs. On the day of the mission, U.S. helicopters reportedly took off from Jalalabad in Afghanistan. Pakistan says they entered its air space undetected by -- and they say, making use of blind spots in radar coverage.
Well, Chris Lawrence has more on how the hunt for bin Laden finally came to an end.
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The three story building built about six years ago. A bin Laden protege and his brother lived on the first floor of the main building and another house in the compound. But Bin Laden's family occupied the top two floors of the main building.
Unlike other neighbors, who took their trash out, these people burned theirs inside the compound. And if two main gates weren't enough to discourage visitors, opaque windows shielded the inside. And there was an 18 foot outer wall topped with barbed wire. It stood out.
And a U.S. intelligence official says given how bad al Qaeda's finances are, they would only spend this kind of money for one of the top two commanders. So in effect, bin Laden was the engineer of his own destruction.
The end began with four U.S. military helicopters and two dozen commandos arriving overhead. When some of the Navy SEALs landed on the ground, the assault teams stormed the compound.
BRANDON WEBB, FORMER NAVY SEAL, AUTHOR, "THE 21ST CENTURY SNIPER": They're going room to room, very methodical, you know, engaging targets and, you know, completing the mission. But it's -- it's a really intense, personal, you know, up close and personal type of operation.
LAWRENCE: But high above, multiple American planes and drones were in the air, ready to help the team, if needed.
CIA Director Leon Panetta was quarterbacking the mission, in secure radio contact with the assault team commander. But back at the White House, the president's national security team was anxiously watching video from the site.
JOHN BRENNAN, DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: The minutes passed like days. And the president was very concerned about the security of our personnel.
LAWRENCE: This ABC News video shows the aftermath inside the compound. One woman died in the firefight. The SEALs shot and killed the two brothers and bin Laden's son. And with a shot to the chest and one to the head, the SEALs killed Osama bin Laden. They identified his body and took it with them as they left the compound.
BRENNAN: It was a tremendous sigh of relief that what we believed and who we believed was in that compound actually was in that compound and was found.
LAWRENCE: But there was one final decision. One of the U.S. helicopters was in trouble and had to land. The team made the call to destroy it there on the ground and hustled the women and children away before blowing up the aircraft.
(on camera): It took 40 minutes in and out of the compound. But some of that time was spent collecting papers and material, what one U.S. official calls a robust amount of intelligence that they hope to exploit and use to track down other members of al Qaeda.
Chris Lawrence, CNN, the Pentagon.
ANDERSON: OK, some remarkable details on what actually happened. And we're learning more today about bin Laden's final moments and whether his wife was actually killed during the rail.
CNN's executive producer, Suzanne Kelly, joining us more with that part of the story.
She's at CNN Center.
What do we know -- Suzanne?
SUZANNE KELLY, CNN EXECUTIVE PRODUCER: Well, Becky, I think the real headline that came out of the briefing from the White House today versus what was said yesterday is that bin Laden, in fact, was not armed. We heard yesterday that he was resisting arrest. They did say again today that he was resisting, but we don't know what that means.
Does that mean he threw up his arms, he tried to stop people coming toward him?
We simply don't know. But he was shot, so you'll remember yesterday when we were first hearing details that there was information about this being a kill operation.
So it -- actually, it almost seems like the way the administration has handled this, almost everything they say raises more questions than those it answers.
ANDERSON: Yes, fascinating.
All right, stick with us.
As you get more, bring it to us, for our viewers here on CNN International.
Suzanne Kelly with the very latest from the States.
Well, Pakistan breaks its silence -- what the country's president is saying about the raid that killed bin Laden just 120 kilometers -- think of that, so close to Islamabad.
And closure for many remains elusive. For families of the victims at Ground Zero, the emotions are mixed.
ANDERSON: Pakistan's president staunchly denies playing any role in the mission that killed Osama bin Laden. But he says it couldn't have been done without the help of his government.
Well, now angry U.S. lawmakers skeptical about the relationship with Islamabad are demanding answers.
Much more on that coming up in just a few minutes.
I'm Becky Anderson in London.
You're watching CONNECT THE WORLD.
Here's a look at the other stories that we are following for you this hour.
And another clue from the wreckage of Air France Flight 447 has been uncovered -- the cockpit voice recorder. But after two years in the Atlantic Ocean, we don't know whether the device will hold any retrievable data. The Airbus A-330, you'll remember, crashed mysteriously off Brazil almost two years ago.
Well, one of Moammar Gadhafi's last allies in the international community is calling on the Libyan leader to step down. Turkey has had a close trade ties with Libya and Turkish diplomats helped negotiate the release of four captured journalists in March.
But now the prime minister says it's time for Mr. Gadhafi to go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAYYIP ERDOGAN, TURKISH PRIME MINISTER (through translator): Moammar Gadhafi has to take this historical step for Libya's future, territorial integrity, peace and stability. Under the current conditions, the most appropriate way is for him to hand over the power and administration to the true owner of power -- that is, to the Libyan people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Bahrain has largely stamped out political protests there. And now, it is prosecuting medical personnel that treated anti-government demonstrators during the recent unrest. Twenty-three doctors and 24 nurses are to be tried in military court. The charge -- acting against the state. Medical staff have said they were under professional duty to help anyone in need.
Canada's Conservative Party is heading for a definitive win in the new elections there. Preliminary results show that Prime Minister Stephen Harper remaining in power, with the left-leaning New Democratic Party forming the opposition. He's winning his first major majority government, with early results showing his party taking about 40 percent of the seats in parliament.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN HARPER, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: God bless all of you. God keep our land glorious and free.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Well, for the first time ever, the Liberal Party in Canada is finishing third.
Well, people in New Zealand are cleaning up after a vicious tornado swept through Auckland. One person was killed and 19 injured during the storm on Monday. Cars were tossed around like toys, we're told, and the twister uprooted trees and ripped the roof off a shopping mall. The wounded, injured by flying debris, were treated at three area hospitals.
Well, they are battling rain and each other tonight in Spain. Barcelona hosting archrivals Real Madrid in the second leg of their Champions League semi-final. And the past 20 minutes have been, well, pretty productive for both sides. One goal for either side, that takes Barcelona's lead to 3-1 on aggregate. The winner, of course, will advance to the final to face either Man United or Shalke in the final. They play tomorrow night.
Well, angry accusations and denials -- Pakistan responds to allegations about helping the world's most wanted terrorist.
And also tonight, a hacking scandal goes from bad to worse. Now, Sony is scrambling to do some major damage control.
That coming up after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: President Zardari and his team need to understand better how Osama bin Laden could hide in -- in plain sight in that kind of compound without the knowledge of high ranking officials. It's an important question for Pakistan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: And it's a question many people have been asking since Sunday. Pakistan has been relatively quiet about the death of Osama bin Laden. But now, the country's president is answering his critics.
In an op-ed for "The Washington Post," Asif Ali Zardari insists the Pakistani government wasn't involved in the mission to kill bin Laden and had no knowledge of his whereabouts. But he says Islamabad was part of the broader effort that led to his death.
Still, there are many in the U.S. government who aren't so sure.
CIA chief, Leon Panetta, tells "Time" magazine that U.S. officials didn't tell Pakistan about the operation for fear it could jeopardize the mission, because, and I know that, "They might alert the targets."
Well, it's not just the CIA expressing skepticism. Many U.S. lawmakers are calling for a complete reevaluation of the U.S.-Pakistani relationship and some are even suggesting an end to the more than $1 billion in aid that the U.S. gives its ally every year.
Well, for more on that, let's get to Washington and Jill Dougherty, who joins us from there -- Jill, this is a crucial relationship, but how crucial, at this point?
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: It continues to be crucial. I mean, Becky, you have to say that, quoting John Brennan, the president's adviser on these national security issues, he said that this relationship is cru -- critical to breaking the back of al Qaeda.
And so there's no question. But the problem is it's very complex and tense, at times, tense -- and right now is one of those times -- relationship.
And this situation, that big question that is overriding, how could Osama bin Laden be in that compound for the time that he was without somebody in the government or the military of Pakistan knowing about it?
That is the big issue right now. It's creating a firestorm up among some up on Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: I think we have to know whether they knew. If they did -- the Pakistanis knew.
If they didn't know, why didn't they know?
Why didn't they pay more attention to it?
Was this just benign indifference?
Or was it indifference with a motive?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. FRANK LAUTENBERG (D), NEW JERSEY: I think that let them know that the aid is in suspense unless we get some answers to the question -- some satisfactory answers, because if we find out that they knew something, then we have a whole different equation to go through.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOUGHERTY: Yes, and so the question -- I mean, Becky, you can hear it there, if they knew and then if they didn't know, it raises another set of questions.
I mean are they competent enough to go after terrorists or are there people at the higher levels, as we have been told by some officials, perhaps that the higher levels do not know the people at the lower levels who might want to protect bin Laden?
There's a lot of confusion.
And I think the -- the ultimate thing is both countries are going to have to look into this very carefully. But at this point, it's going to really -- it's going to make it a very rocky relationship, as if it were not already.
ANDERSON: Yes, no, absolutely.
Jill, you're absolutely right.
Thank you for that.
So that is the relationship between the U.S. and Pakistan.
The Afghan government has been arguing all along that it wasn't harboring top al Qaeda terrorists, but its sovereign neighbor might be.
So the question remains, how much did the Pakistani government know?
How high up was it and what does this mean for the U.S.-led war on terror, importantly?
Well, Fareed Zakaria, the host of CNN's "GPS," has some thoughts on this and write: "This is just one more powerful piece of evidence that Pakistan is engaged in a fairly selective kind of operation or cooperation with the United States." well, I -- I spoke to Fareed a little earlier.
And I began by asking him what he meant by that assessment.
This is what he said.
FAREED ZAKARIA, HOST, "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS": It's part of a pattern, which is that over the last 10 years, what we have noticed is that Pakistan does not go after those terrorists who engage in terrorism against the United States, against the West, against Indians, but rather reserve their firepower to go after those terrorists who kill Pakistanis.
So this is one more piece of that puzzle.
The Pakistani military does seem committed to fight terrorists, but they seem very reluctant to expand that definition to included all terrorists, to include terrorists such as al Qaeda, whose principle target is not Pakistanis, but whose principle target is Americans, Westerners, Indians, perhaps.
And the fact that Osama bin Laden could build a million dollar essentially fortified compound eight times larger than any house in the neighborhood without anybody in the Pakistani military alerting the United States or -- or Western counter-terrorism officials is, frankly, extraordinarily suspicious.
ANDERSON: So, Fareed, to you imply that at some level, the Pakistanis had to be complicit with al Qaeda and bin Laden being there?
So how far up the political ladder do you think that goes?
ZAKARIA: That's the billion dollar question, Becky. I think that, clearly, you could not have created the kind of hideout, headquarters, that bin Laden did without some degree of knowledge of some eliminates of the Pakistani military. I do not think this was a centralized decision. I don't think General Kayani, the head of the Pakistani military, knew about it. I don't think there was official sanction for this.
But my point is that there is enough ambivalence within the Pakistani military and there are enough mixed signals sent from every quarter, including the very top, that obviously some element within the Pakistani military, perhaps at the level of colonels, perhaps at the level of even generals, thought it was OK to probably not really look into this.
A few years ago, I think it was about five years ago, I had a conversation with President Karzai. This was at a time when the Afghan government was claiming that all the al Qaeda leadership were in Pakistan, were in Quetta, you know, the city in Pakistan.
And Musharraf -- General Musharraf, president of Pakistan at the time, was claiming that this was not the case at all.
Karzai said to me in an off the cuff, offhand remark, he said, Fareed, mark my words, the day Osama bin Laden is found, he will be found in a city in Pakistan.
And I couldn't help thinking about that over these last few days.
ANDERSON: In another post entitled, "Al Qaeda is Over," you say, and I quote, "History teaches us that the loss of the charismatic leader or the symbol is extraordinarily damaging for the organization."
But you don't cite who in history you are drawing analogies with.
Can you -- can you give me some examples?
ZAKARIA: Once you lose the -- the figure that -- the figurehead, who is a kind of charismatic leader, it becomes very difficult to sustain these organizations because they were really built as personality cults. I mean Hitler is another example, where the Nazis had to sign -- had to swear an oath of loyalty to Hitler himself, to the Fuhrer himself.
And so, so much of Nazism was tied up with Hitler, it was inconceivable once he took his life, that there could be any Nazi movement after it.
Remember, bin Laden does a very similar thing. When you join al Qaeda, you swear an oath of fealty to bin Laden personally. So the loss of bin Laden in that context is a huge blow.
Nobody is -- no suicide bomber is going out there to die for Khalid Sheikh Mohammed or to die for Ayman Zawahiri or al-Awlaki. They're -- they are dying for the man they see as their leader.
ANDERSON: Do you think this will have a lasting impact on the political atmosphere in the States and, indeed, on Obama's rating?
ZAKARIA: No and no. It will be temporary. I think it's real. I think people are genuinely relieved to see a kind of American success.
But the core statistic that will determine President Obama's fate is not the number of al Qaeda leaders killed or captured, it is the unemployment rate in the United States.
But Obama did make a decision to double and triple down on the counter-terrorism part of the war on terror. That is to say, he said, I -- I'd never believed this is Obama. Obama says I never believed in the Iraq mission, I never believed that you -- you win the war on terror by taking democracy to Iraq or -- or trying to depose Saddam Hussein. I believe it's all in counter-terrorism, it is in going after the bad guys.
He doubled and tripled the amount of resources, the number of missions. He quadrupled the number of drone attacks.
So this operation is, in a sense, a vindication of Obama's strategy.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
ANDERSON: Fareed Zakaria, one of my colleagues. His show, "GPS," of course, on CNN.
Well, 9/11 was the largest loss of life for U.S. firefighters in one day. Just ahead, reaction from their families as they remember the sacrifice their loved ones had to make at the hands of terrorists.
ANDERSON: A very warm welcome back to CONNECT THE WORLD here on CNN. I'm Becky Anderson in London at just before half past nine. Coming up --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAUREEN SANTORA, MOTHER OF 9/11 VICTIM: At the moment, I'm on a high, because I feel my son's, you know, joy and exhilaration that this very evil man was captured and killed by Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: In the United States, reality sinks in. Loved ones of those who died in the September 11th attacks reflect on the death of Osama bin Laden.
Plus this hour, computer hackers deal another blow to Sony. Personal information of thousands more gamers exposed.
And how could this possibly be the face of a man who had just authorized the raid that could make or break his presidency. A closer look at Barack Obama's poker face.
Those stories are ahead in the next 30 minutes. First, let me get you a very quick check of the headlines this hour.
The White House now says Osama bin Laden was unarmed when US commandos shot and killed him at his hideout in Pakistan, but US officials say he was putting up resistance. They also said his wife was shot in the leg but survived.
Pakistan's president says his country had no prior knowledge of the raids that killed Osama bin Laden, but in a "Washington Post" editorial, Asif Ali Zardari says a decade of cooperation did lead to bin Laden's elimination.
After years of close ties between them, the Turkish prime minister is calling for Libyan president Moammar Gadhafi to step down immediately and fulfill his historical and humanitarian responsibilities.
And investigators are hoping to uncover significant clues about the crash of Air France flight 447, now that search teams have retrieved the cockpit voice recorder. All 228 people onboard were killed when the plane went down in the Atlantic in 2009.
And in Champions League Football, Real Madrid visiting Barcelona in the second leg of their semifinal. Right now, late in the match, they are tied at one-all, Barcelona leading three-one on aggregate, putting them in a good position to advance to the final.
And those are your headlines this hour.
Well, US president Barack Obama will visit Ground Zero in New York on Thursday following the killing of Osama bin Laden. Fionnuala Sweeney is there, and she joins us now, live. Fionn?
FIONNUALA SWEENEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello. Well, the mood of jubilation over the last 48 hours or so has given to one -- way to one of reflection.
Let's take a look at the scene behind me, if you will, Becky. And this is, of course, what looks like a construction site, but it is, of course, the site of Ground Zero, and people there just going about their business as usual.
In fact, it's probably the media that have become a tourist attraction a bit for people who are passing by, but people generally now at 4:30 or so in the afternoon getting ready to go home after their day's work.
But of course, a lot of what happened here at the World Trade Center affected scores and scores of firefighters, many of whom died trying to save their fellow countrymen and women. Mary Snow, ten years on, went to visit some of the victims' families.
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was the day they'd been waiting for. Maureen and Al Santora came to this firehouse where their son Christopher worked. He was one of 15 firefighters from Engine 54 killed on September 11th, this Manhattan station suffering huge losses that day.
MAUREEN SANTORA, MOTHER OF 9/11 VICTIM: At the moment, I'm on a high, because I feel my son's joy and exhilaration that this very evil man was captured and killed by Americans, you know?
And I just feel his presence, that he's just, "Right on, good for the soldiers!" And I mean, I can hear him yelling and screaming, and he'd be dancing in the streets today, my son.
SNOW: But that elation was mixed with deep emotion for her husband, Al, who was also a firefighter, for 40 years.
AL SANTORA, FATHER OF 9/11 VICTIM: We never can bring them back, but we can do everything we can to bring the people who were responsible to justice. And that's what happened today.
It's a win for the United States of America, it's a win for everybody in the world, the free world. And hopefully, we'll have some more wins, and it makes it a little easier.
PETER REGAN, LADDER 174: I will have an added respect for my military brothers.
SNOW: Thirty-year-old Peter Regan is now a firefighter in Brooklyn, following the steps of his father Donald, who was killed on 9/11. Regan is also a marine who was deployed to Iraq twice.
SNOW (on camera): A lot of people were saying they didn't want to use the world "closure."
REGAN: This is -- no. I don't feel any closure. I mean, there's always -- like I said, he's a big chapter and he's a big forefront. He's the main target. But -- there's someone behind him. For me, closure would be letting the guard down, so -- and I'm not ready to do that.
SNOW (voice-over): But for a moment in Times Square Sunday night, some firefighters stopped to take in the news and were touched to watch hundreds of people celebrate word of bin Laden's death.
THOMAS VENDITTO, CAPTAIN, ENGINE 54: Last night, people came out of their hotel rooms, they came out of theaters, wherever they were, in restaurants. They showed up and they smiled and they kissed us and hugged us and took photos and they cheered us on.
And it's not just about us. It's about the United States. They were cheering the United States, they were cheering the firefighters, they were cheering our troops. It's all good things.
SNOW (on camera): And New York City's fire commissioner told us that his elation over the news only lasted for a few brief moments, that he is overly concerned about retaliation, and that he told firefighters in the field to be extremely cautious. Mary Snow, CNN, New York.
SWEENEY: All right, that is the story, there, of victims of 9/11, the firefighters. We're joined, now, by another firefighter and another survivor of 9/11. This is George Bachmann and this is Leslie Haskin. Thank you very much, indeed, for joining us. Where were you on the morning of 9/11?
GEORGE BACHMANN, RETIRED 9/11 FIREFIGHTER: I'm one of the survivors, Fionnuala, at Ladder 10 Engine 10, the 10 House, which is the only firehouse to be destroyed on 9/11. And I'd like to take the opportunity to thank Mayor Bloomberg, the Honorable Mayor Bloomberg for rebuilding our firehouse and replacing our rigs.
SWEENEY: Let me ask you, you almost didn't survive. You were almost with your colleagues when the tower came down. What happened?
BACHMANN: Yes, I was in the North Tower when Chief Picciotto, who wrote his own memoir, gave a mayday, and I came down the North Tower, out the lobby, and joined the command post of Chief of Department Peter Ganci and First Deputy Commissioner William Feehan, and I did some work for them. And unfortunately, they perished.
But the book, my memoir, which reads like a story, is about the circumstances about their death. And they are loved by generations of firefighters everywhere.
SWEENEY: And it is an unusual story.
BACHMANN: It's a unique story, and it pulls at the heartstrings. And it's also been called a story of healing.
SWEENEY: And would you like to explain it?
BACHMANN: Well, it reads, like I said, like a story. It's considered a memoir.
BACHMANN: It's about my survival, how my family got me back on my feet. And it crescendos into exactly what happened to me on 9/11.
BACHMANN: And my injuries, how I was rescued. I was rescued near the command post, and -- yes. It crescendos with how -- what happened to the circumstances surrounding the two chiefs. And I would like to --
SWEENEY: What did they do?
BACHMANN: They saluted each other in their last seconds. And it's a well-known story amongst the fire department, amongst the small circle of men who testified to this. And that's what we surrounded our story with.
SWEENEY: So, they saluted when they knew all hope was lost.
BACHMANN: Yes, they quick saluted each other before they perished. And again, they were loved by generations of firefighters.
We're trying to get a marker for them in the middle of the West Street, because they weren't killed in the 16 acres. They were killed in the middle of West Street, outside the North Tower. And so, we're trying to get some 3,000 or 4,000 signatures from firefighters around the five boroughs to join in and try to get this marker put for Chiefs Feehan and Ganci.
SWEENEY: It's extraordinary that they were men in their 60s and 70s, almost, and unable to run and knew that the end had come.
Leslie, let me turn to you. You were in Tower One, which is known as the North Tower. You saw the building shift to one side, and you somehow escaped. But the real escape for you, on a human level, has been going on for the last ten years.
LESLIE HASKIN, 9/11 SURVIVOR: It's been an incredible journey for me. I was on the 36th floor of Tower One when the plane hit the building and, from the moment that plane hit the building, we felt the impact. We felt it, we heard it, we smelled it. And the building never righted itself. It went to almost a full tilt.
And so, we knew from the second that that plane hit the building that that building was going to come down.
SWEENEY: And where did you find yourself a year or two down the line? Getting over it?
HASKIN: I'm still getting over it. A year later, I found myself going from one of the highest-paid executives for Kemper Insurance Company to being homeless with my 12-year-old son.
The -- I was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, severe post-traumatic stress disorder. I was unable to speak, I was committed to a psychiatric hospital. The bills mounted, I couldn't pay the hospital, the medical, or anything, and I lost my home, I lost my job, I lost everything.
SWEENEY: And how did you recover from that?
HASKIN: Like I said, it's been a tough journey. I'm still recovering. I've had some medical issues, some surgeries, because just being the buildings for so long registered with the 9/11 health registry and just trying to pull myself back together.
It's been my faith in God and a good, strong support system with family and good friends who know that there is, in fact, something bigger than what happened on September 11th.
SWEENEY: And may I ask, what does the death of Osama bin Laden do for you? Does it bring some closure? That's the word of the moment. Or does it do something else?
HASKIN: I'm -- honestly, I'm still a little bit numb. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around what's happening, because right now, it's just bringing up all those things, all those memories, the smells, the sound, everything that happened on 9/11.
Closure is a difficult thing. Closure means that it's complete, it's over. And we know that Osama bin Laden, he's the -- he's just really the face of it all, as my son was saying today. There are other people out there.
There's thousands who died that day, and thousands more who died in pursuit of him. And so, I salute the president and I salute the armed services who have fought so diligently to find him and to free us of him.
SWEENEY: I mean, you've both written books, now, and I know from talking to you before we came on air that you're still, obviously, dealing with this. Did the books -- what did writing the books do for you?
BACHMANN: Yes, it was therapeutic for me. But just a comment about Osama bin Laden. We have to continue to be vigilant.
BACHMANN: And I believe the long-term effects are -- it will galvanize this country, and kudos on President Obama, God bless him.
BACHMANN: And the Navy SEALS. My stepfather was chief boatswain mate in the navy, and it's -- I'm a Vietnam veteran with two purple hearts, so this is sweet revenge being a survivor of 9/11. And I believe, again, it will galvanize this country.
HASKIN: And my book is basically my journal. With being diagnosed post-traumatic stress disorder, I couldn't speak after 9/11, so I journaled everything.
So, this book, "Between Heaven and Ground Zero" is about everything that happened inside the building. I mean, from the outside, you see the building standing and smoking, but from the inside it was totally different. And this book is about what happened inside, from inside the building.
SWEENEY: It must have been incredible to watch the television pictures later on. But thank you both very much, indeed.
HASKIN: Thank you so much.
SWEENEY: George Bachmann, Leslie Haskin.
BACHMANN: Thank you, Fionnuala.
HASKIN: Thank you.
SWEENEY: Thank you, indeed.
Well, Becky, that is just a semblance of what we all remember from the stories that emanated after 9/11 from those two towers that collapsed here. Really digging and stabbing into the heart of America, but particularly New York, who are -- New Yorkers, who are going back to business now.
You're looking at the scene behind me and, as we leave you here, just think this. The national September 11th Memorial Museum will -- which is underway right now, being built, will be completed and opened by September 11th, the anniversary, 10th anniversary, and I'm sure, of course, New Yorkers will be marking that, as will we. Back to you.
ANDERSON: Yes, absolutely. Fionn, thank you very much, indeed, for that. Remember the people behind the story, of course.
You're watching CONNECT THE WORLD here on CNN. Going to move on at this point, for you. Coming up, we have about 15 minutes left of the show, and I want get a couple of other stories in.
The Sony saga continues. The gaming giant discovers another hit from hackers, and admits this time credit card and debit records may also have been stolen. We're going to have the backlash for you, up next.
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SIMON READ, PLAYSTATION USER: I think that it's ridiculous that an organization like Sony would keep account information for what was initially 77 million, but it's now pushing 100 million mark, unencrypted. And also that they've now decided they need a chief of information security officer.
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ANDERSON: Yes, the numbers are remarkable, aren't they? An angry customer, there, as hackers score yet another hit on Sony.
Now, if you're a PlayStation user, you will be well aware that the service has been inaccessible since last month's cyber attack. Well, the shutdown, I'm afraid, just got wider. Sony has now admitted hackers have also infiltrated its online entertainment network. So, if you play games on your PC, you too could have had your personal data stolen.
As of Monday, 12 days after PlayStation was disconnected, Sony Online Entertainment has also been taken offline. Jim Boulden asks a gaming expert to explain the breach for you.
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TIM INGHAM, EDITOR, COMPUTERANDVIDEOGAMES.COM: The guys who sign up to Sony on online entertainment games sign up with a different account than they do to the PlayStation Network, which is just to access PlayStation's online library.
And so, it is entirely likely that there are a lot of people with a PSN account who've seen that hacked who will also have their Sony Online Entertainment account hacked. So, there's probably millions of people out there who have had two Sony gaming online accounts hacked and their details potentially revealed to someone they may not want them revealed to.
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ANDERSON: If you are one of the unlucky ones, I'm so sorry. Let's take a look at how many users have, now, been affected by what's going on.
It all started, of course, in April, April the 22nd, when Sony revealed hackers stole data from 77 million gamers. But here, May 3, this is what happened. After that latest breach, Sony said another 24.6 million users have potentially been exposed.
Where are they? The breach doesn't end there. The gaming giant has said an outdated database from 2007 was also hacked. As a result, take a look at these numbers.
Europeans and non-US, the direct debit records of 10,700 users in Germany, Austria, the Netherlands, and Spain have been stolen. So, too, the credit and debit card numbers of some 12,700 non-US customers.
Well, it does seem extraordinary that this kind of breach could happen, so let's get inside the mind of the hacker, as it were. I'm joined, now, by a man who was once America's most wanted computer criminal. From New York, Kevin Mitnick joins us, now.
You're legit, these days, and work as an internet security consultant. How did you react when you heard the news from Sony? Not just once, but twice?
KEVIN MITNICK, FORMER COMPUTER HACKER: I was really surprised. I thought Sony really had screwed -- I mean, either these hackers are really, really good and sophisticated, or Sony's security is really bad.
ANDERSON: So, you say it's either one or the other. Which is it? Because you know. You know, being a hacker, just how good these guys can be.
MITNICK: Well, what I'm -- my concern is is it appears that Sony was storing credit card information and they weren't encrypting it, or they were encrypting it, they left the key in a place that could be found by the attackers.
The other thing is, they got actually to the user database. They were able to steal people's user names, their e-mail address, their hash password. What a hash password is, it's kind of scrambled, but I don't think Sony really scrambled it so it's really too difficult to figure out what that password is through what we call dictionary attacks and those sorts of things.
ANDERSON: So, you're possibly alleging simple negligence, I guess. At this point, only alleging, of course, nobody's suggesting that about Sony. We've spoken, Kevin, to some of Sony's customers about this ongoing saga. Just have a listen to this.
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IAN HIGTON, PLATFORM32.COM: As a gamer, it's pretty inconvenient for me wanting to jump online and play against my mates and stuff. As a consumer, it has kind of put a bit of a damper on my keenness to buy from PlayStation.
MICHAEL DEFILIPPIS, PLAYSTATION USER: Whatever cautious optimism that I had for Sony beforehand was really -- was really just kind of -- buried the horse right there with the latest leak, so I'm not -- I'm not too pleased. I'm -- I already canceled my debit card, I'm getting a new one, so -- and so, that was with Sony.
And even when they say that the credit card info was encrypted, I find that hard to believe, that if it was, they probably did a pretty sloppy job of it, too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Yes, I mean, sort of slightly underwhelmed by what was going on. I mean, you obviously buy their arguments, though, don't you?
MITNICK: Yes, I mean, Sony's image is tarnished right now. All these gamers, their credit card details are out there, now they could be subject to identity theft.
A lot of people use the same passwords, so the same password they use for their online gaming or their Sony PlayStation accounts, they probably use for their e-mail and their online banking. So, now everybody has to change all their passwords.
ANDERSON: Kevin, tell me this, I've always been fascinated by this. The hackers get in, but do they, then, sell the information on to effective criminals, or is it the hackers who'll be using the information for their own gain?
MITNICK: It's hard to know. There's hackers in the past that have brokered -- in other words, they've brokered credit cards, they sell -- they acquire them, then they sell them to other criminal organizations.
It's unusual for them to use it directly, but there was a huge case in the United States, USA v. Albert Gonzales, and this guy was responsible for stealing hundreds of millions of credit cards and then sending them to this guy that was a broker in the Ukraine, and they were selling the cards to whomever.
ANDERSON: Yes, I'm wondering if you can make more money if you return to hacking, but I'm glad you're s a security analyst at this point.
ANDERSON: How can we, then -- as a security analyst, give me some advice. How can we better protect ourselves going forward. Give us some really good tips, if you would.
MITNICK: Well, this is the problem. Sony's database was breached. So, as consumers, there's really -- you have little power over their security failure. But one recommendation's never use the same password for two different systems or two different websites.
Right now, if your credit card details were possibly compromised, I'd look at your credit reports, Experian, TransUnion, and Equifax to make sure nobody is opening lines of credit in your name.
And I really think that's really what you can really do at this point, due to this particular breach. Because don't forget, Sony actually had your data, and your data was compromised, so unfortunately, you can't change your date of birth. I did in the past, but that was a real bad idea. But that's another story.
So, the only thing you can change is, really, your password and check your credit report to make sure there's been no unauthorized use of your credit cards.
ANDERSON: All right, two good tips, do it, viewers, if you are a Sony user. Kevin, we thank you for that. Advice from the best in the business, there.
Now, to the game fills Europeans with the greatest passion, we are at the semifinal stage here in Europe of the Champions League. And tonight, Barcelona and archrivals Real Madrid have been battling it out for a shot at the trophy.
Let me tell you, conditions at the Nou Camp have been wet, to say the least. Let's head there now where a dripping Pedro Pinto joins us with the result and a wash up. I can see you, at least. Can you hear me?
PEDRO PINTO, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENET: I can, Becky. How are you?
ANDERSON: Good. How did it go?
PINTO: Becky, I can confirm that Barcelona, as expected, have booked a place in the final of the Champions League at Wembley Stadium in London on the 28th of May.
It was always going to be mission impossible for Real Madrid after they lost the first leg at home two-nil. They needed to beat the Catalans here by at least two goals, and you can see they aren't going home happy.
They needed to beat the Catalans here by at least two goals, and they had only been able to do that twice in the last three decades. They weren't able to repeat such a feat tonight, and it's all about Barcelona going on their seventh European Cup final.
They'll aim to win the Champions League for the fourth time in club history. They'll now have to wait to see whether they'll face either Manchester United or Schalke. One-all the score here tonight. Pedro gave Barcelona the lead in the 54th minute. Marcelo equalized for Real Madrid ten minutes later. Three-one on aggregate. Barcelona, they're headed to Wembley.
ANDERSON: Never work with children, animals, or football fans, they tell us, and Pedro battling against the latter, there, with his report, but Pedro, we thank you for that. So, Barca through, Man United and Schalke up tomorrow evening. It's going to be a fantastic final when we get to it, of course, in Wembley in the weeks to come. Pedro, thank you for that.
Just ahead here on the show, some irreverent good-byes to Osama bin Laden. We got Jeanne Moos on the spur of the moment celebrations and some searing send-offs. Back after this.
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ANDERSON: Osama bin Laden's death has dominated the front pages of newspapers and magazines around the world, but the emphasis has varied substantially depending on the country. I want to take you through just what we've found here.
China's publications take a cautious stance on the announcement and its impact on the war on terror. "Battle is not over," they say. "South China Morning Post" leading article reads, "Osama bin Laden dead, but war on terror continues.
Let's get you to "The Times of India." Interesting, the paper tending to focus more on the supposed slight of Pakistan by the UN -- US intelligence team. "The Times of India" headline reads, "US kills Osama, blows Pak cover," as in Pakistan.
"US forces kill Osama bin Laden" is how "The Hindu's" front page describes the operation.
"The National," one of the leading papers in the United Arab Emirates, focuses on the "world without Osama," saying that Muslims have already relinquished any tie to his ideology.
Well, on TV news shows, the death of Osama bin Laden resurrected a certain slip of the tongue, let's say. Get one letter wrong and you're in a whole world of trouble. Jeanne Moos has more.
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Osama bin Laden is toast, and his demise was toasted with beers and cheers.
MOOS: And some bubbly. At Ohio State, students jumped into a lake.
CROWD: USA! USA!
MOOS: Riders sang the national anthem on the New York City subway.
CROWD (singing): -- Star Spangled Banner --
MOOS: The pledge was led form a pole.
CROWD: One nation, under God --
MOOS: Indivisible, with liberty and wrestling for all, where champ John Cena announced bin Laden's death ringside.
JOHN CENA, PROFESSIONAL WRESTLER: But I feel damn proud to be an American.
MOOS: It was the same exact date, May 1st, that Germany announced Hitler was dead back in 1945, but back then, there were no bloody Taiwanese animations.
MOOS (on camera): The death of Osama bin Laden brought back to life a certain unintentional faux pas, saying "Obama" when you mean "Osama" or vice-versa.
REGIS PHILBIN, HOST, "LIVE WITH REGIS & KELLY": Obama finally caught --
MOOS (voice-over): NBC's Norah O'Donnell tweeted "Obama shot and killed." Ditto at a local station in Washington, DC.
WILL THOMAS, WTTG FOX 5 ANCHOR: President Obama is, in fact, dead. It was a US-led strategic --
(OFF MIC REMARKS)
THOMAS: I'm sorry, Osama bin Laden.
MOOS: Rush Limbaugh almost did it.
RUSH LIMBAUGH, HOST, "THE RUSH LIMBAUGH SHOW": Obama -- sorry, Osama is dead.
MOOS (on camera): And talk about a poker face. Watch President Obama react to an Osama bin Laden joke.
MOOS (voice-over): This was Saturday night at the White House Correspondents' Dinner after the president had already authorized the raid on bin Laden's compound.
SETH MEYERS, COMEDIAN: People think bin Laden is hiding in the Hindu Kush, but did you know that every day from 4:00 to 5:00 he hosts a show on CSPAN?
MOOS: Watch the president's broad smile. Raid? What raid? And when the raid was announced, guess whose show got interrupted?
DONALD TRUMP, "CELEBRTIY APPRENTICE": Who should be fired, NeNe?
MOOS: The shots fired in Afghanistan knocked Trump off the air.
(NBC NEWS ALERT THEME)
MOOS: Inspired cartoonist Gary McCoy to draw Trump saying "I want to see the death certificate."
Ding dong, bin Laden dead.
MUNCHKINS, "THE WIZARD OF OZ" (singing): Ding dong, the witch is dead!
MOOS: Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
MUNCHKINS: Ding dong, the wicked witch is dead! Wake up you sleepy head, rub your eyes, get out of bed --
ANDERSON: And that is your world connected this evening here on CNN. I'm Becky Anderson. The world news headlines and "BackStory" will follow this short break. Don't go away.