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Our Children: Understanding Terrorism
Aired May 3, 2011 - 21:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Now that Osama bin Laden is dead, our kids are asking a lot of questions. How should you answer them? I`m here to help.
Miss USA says she was groped during an airport pat-down. What is terrorism doing to us?
And Kat Von D is here. What you don`t know about her and Jesse James until now. His new book is out tonight.
Let`s get started.
All right. Thanks for joining me this evening.
Now, if you remember yesterday, we were talking about kids, and I talked about my own personal experience, how -- texting my kids about bin Laden`s death and how it was such a profound thing for them. And I was sort of surprised by that.
So, first of all, I want to know, did you talk to your kids? Because I went home and I talked to mine. And I was again kind of surprised by what happened.
I was talking to them about what happened at school, what the conversations were like. And to my amazement, my kids -- I have 18-year- old triplets. Yes, two boys and a girl, triplets. I earned my gray hair. Thank you very much. But they`re 18 now but for the grace of God.
And they`re great kids and they`re smart kids. And I found them with their peers having a conversation that kind of surprised me.
They`ve been using this event as a springboard to have conversations about morality. And I`m wondering if you at home have had that same experience.
If you have particularly older adolescents or young adult kids, talking about, is it right to kill someone if they are someone who`s endangering your country? Or is he really -- and what conditions is killing somebody OK?
Now, I don`t want to get philosophical here and talk about the specifics of what is and is not OK about it, but just about talking to kids. That`s what we`re going to talk about today. And boy, we had quite an interesting conversation.
I took the conversation mostly back to, well, guys, let`s say you could kill, say, Hitler when he was in power. Would you have taken that opportunity?
Now, of course, history is something that evolves forward, so it`s hard to say that`s what we`ve done here. And I challenged my kids with that, and they`re still talking about it.
So, maybe you at home will have this opportunity to talk about these things and other things. We`re going to talk about them here tonight.
This has been an incredible 48 hours. Many of us, adults and kids alike, are coming together. Some are even celebrating bin Laden`s death. There`s been some laughter, too. You know, the late-night shows are telling jokes.
And I think that`s fine. It`s OK to laugh as long as we don`t promote hate. It`s OK to laugh.
So check this out and then we`ll talk some more.
JON STEWART, "THE DAILY SHOW": Last night was a good night for me, and not just for New York or D.C. or America, but for human people.
JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST, "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE!": To avoid ruffling turbans, the burial was done with strict adherence to Islamic custom. The body was taken by a U.S. military ship --
STEWART: We killed him in Abbottabad? It sounds like the name most New Yorkers would have invented for the fictional place they would have loved to kill bin Laden. I`ll go to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Abbottabad and I`ll shoot him in his Abbottabad-a-bingo.
Do you know what I`m talking about? Move!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is breaking news tonight. President Obama addressing the nation.
KIMMEL: He was very happy.
PINSKY: That really is funny. And it`s OK to laugh about these things and distance ourselves a little bit. And then, ultimately, humor is an intellectual experience.
So, it`s all right. It`s OK.
So, many of you are asking about kids and how we talk about these important events in their young lives. And let`s step back for a second.
This stuff has hung over our kids for 10 years, and each age has had a different experience with this. So we`re going to discuss this with child psychologist Lisa Boesky and Yale law student Greg Dubinski. Now, Greg, I asked him here because he was attending school just blocks from the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001.
So, Greg, my first question is to you.
How did that event affect you on that day, as a 15-year-old looking up at the towers?
GREG DUBINSKY, STUDENT, YALE LAW SCHOOL: Thanks for having me, Drew. I`m glad to talk about my experience.
What I saw, along with my other classmates at Stuyvesant High School, which is only about four blocks from the World Trade Center site and was used as a triage center, actually on 9/11, was something I don`t think any young person should have to see. And so it was a great, tremendous shock for all of us I think to understand that there`s another side to human nature, that people aren`t necessarily nice to one another and can do terrible things to each other.
I think really, for me, my experience personally was understanding that after the attacks, our country lives, exists in an extremely dangerous world. What we do matters.
I felt -- myself, I felt a commitment to doing good to public service. I was somewhat of an apathetic student before 9/11, and afterward I had some time to seriously reflect on my role in school and how what I did personally could contribute to serving others and doing something that could contribute to the country. And so I took my responsibilities a lot more seriously after 9/11.
PINSKY: Do you think your peers did the same? Were other kids -- I mean, first of all, by the way, what an inspiration, my friend. I`m so glad I asked you here today. This is a great story. I didn`t know that`s what you were going to say, but it`s a model for how I hope other people deal with tragedies like this, whether it`s tornadoes in the South or 9/11.
But my question is twofold. Do you think it affected other 15-year- olds similarly? And now that bin Laden is dead, how did you experience that?
DUBINSKY: First, as to my peers, I think it affects everyone differently. I think everyone has a different response to a terrible event. I think some people react in a way that internalizes their pain and act negatively as a result. I think different reactions are normal.
PINSKY: I agree. And I think we`re finding that as we talk to people.
But now to bin Laden`s dead. How do you experience that? And then I`ve got to talk to Dr. Boesky here.
DUBINSKY: Well, first of all, I have tremendous pride in my country, but it actually brings me back to something that happened to me on 9/11 very vividly. I think back to a conversation I had with my grandfather.
He said to me, "You`re 15 now, today, on 9/11. I turned 15 when World War II started." And it made me think about how every generation has its challenges.
And what I hope is that just like the death of Hitler and the end of fascism was a cathartic moment for our country, I hope that the death of bin Laden can be the beginning of an era for us, for our country, for us to pull ourselves up from under the shadow of that horrible day, hold our heads with pride, and move forward to take on the challenges I think we all agree we have collectively as a country.
PINSKY: Nice, Greg. Well said
And boy, Dr. Boesky, I mean, that`s a very, very healthy way to deal with this. Isn`t it?
DR. LISA BOESKY, CHILD PSYCHOLOGIST: That is a very healthy way. And I wish everybody dealt with it that way.
PINSKY: But not everybody does.
BOESKY: No. And, in fact, I found that some -- and that young man, the very same age, and young women, are actually almost re-traumatized by the death of bin Laden. They kind of compartmentalized, went on with their life, went to school, got jobs, maybe even started families. But having the death of bin Laden has brought back that day, and so some are complaining about not being able to sleep.
Just kind of everybody else is celebrating and excited, but they`re kind of brought back to when this all happened. And it`s been really challenging for them.
PINSKY: I`m going to have you watch a little piece of tape here. It sums up what some parents are telling their children.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL HARRINGTON, PARENT: We were watching TV when the news broke, and we told her what happened, that we finally got a very bad person, and he`s gone and hopefully things will be better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Dr. Boesky, let`s just take a minute here talking about what parents can do, what`s a healthy way to approach this problem. A, should people be bringing it up with their kids? And B, whether the kids approach them or not, how should they address this?
BOESKY: Well, they absolutely should be bringing it up because it`s on the headlines, it`s on the Internet.
PINSKY: So it bleeds in no matter what.
BOESKY: Oh, absolutely.
PINSKY: Yes, they`re aware --
BOESKY: And I think a lot of parents are still so surprised and shocked by this, that they`re not even considering how it`s impacting their kids. And so they absolutely should bring it up.
And I think rather than talk to their kids, they need to start asking questions. So what do you think about this? And then shut up. Let your kid talk. See where they`re at with it.
Some kids might be fine -- Osama bin Laden, I don`t even know who that is, I don`t really care. Others might be like, this is amazing for America. Others might say, are there other people that are going to hurt us now?
PINSKY: That is such a great note, because I found that`s the key thing, is just asking open-ended questions, listening, and keeping the conversation on that kid`s level appropriate for that age group.
We have more on this topic when we come back. Don`t two away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): The epic news of bin Laden`s death, amazing, but may be overwhelming for kids. So how do you guide your children through this moment in history?
I`m answering that question straight ahead.
PINSKY: We are talking about a decade of hurt for so many people -- 9/11 families, friends, children who grew up with the specter of terrorism all around them.
Dr. Lisa Boesky, she`s a child psychologist. She remains with me here in the studio.
Joining us via satellite are Diarra White -- she is 17 now, but was in the third grade when the U.S. was attacked -- and Zach White, also 17, not related to Diarra. And he says he remembers September 11th very well.
And back in the studio with me I`ve got Joey Slamon, 26. She was a teenager when the world changed almost a decade ago.
And you guys, the two out there in New Jersey via satellite, and Joey here -- Joey, right? -- sort of represent different age groups on how this affected young people. So that`s why I`ve invited you today.
I want to start with Diarra and ask how it affected you when it happened. And how has bin Laden`s death affected you now?
DIARRA WHITE, WAS IN 3RD GRADE ON 9/11: Well, when 9/11 first happened, I was in third grade. And being that young, I didn`t really know much about New York City and, furthermore, not much about the World Trade Center.
So when we were told what had happened, I -- my teacher just told us that two important buildings in New York City were knocked down. And at that age I didn`t really think anything of it until students in my class started getting picked up by parents.
And my mom was actually a teacher, so I was the last person to be picked up because she had to remain at her school and stay until all of her students were picked up from school. So I was definitely extremely confused and really didn`t know what was going on.
But now, living through -- you know, learning more about it and living through all the different 9/11 anniversaries, I think that bin Laden`s death is a huge benchmark in the fight against terrorism. And initially I wasn`t sure whether to feel -- whether to feel either scared or excited about everything, because I imagine that there will be some serious national and domestic -- international and domestic security repercussions. But now I`m a lot more optimistic about it, and I know it`s definitely a good start to solving the whole conflict in the Middle East.
PINSKY: Thank you, Diarra.
And Joey -- I mean, excuse me -- Zach, do you have a similar sort of experience, or was yours different?
ZACH WHITE, WAS IN 3RD GRADE ON 9/11: Yes. I think in a lot of ways we were kind of too young when 9/11 happened to really comprehend it and what it meant for our country. We all know it was a huge event.
I had a similar experience in elementary school. And unless you had a family member directly in it, it didn`t influence us as much as it should have.
But, you know, through the years it`s kind of dawned on us, exactly what we lived through. And bin Laden`s death in a way is almost our generation`s moment in that high school students in particular, we really know what it means -- exactly what it means to our country.
And for once, you know, in the hallways instead of talking about "Jersey Shore," we`re hearing regular students talking about bin Laden. And it brought a lot of patriotism to our schools, and that`s something we haven`t seen much of.
You know what I remember?
Joey, I want to talk to you about this next. You`re a different -- sort of further along.
JOEY SLAMON, 26 YEARS OLD: Yes, I`m a little bit older.
PINSKY: And I`m sure it affected you differently. But what I remember on that day, amongst many other emotions, I remember my kids were in third grade. They were the same as these guys. And I remember getting in the car and saying to them -- they were 8 years old -- and I said, "The world is never going to be the same for you. And this is something that you`re going to be living."
I`ll never forget that. They don`t remember it. They don`t remember it, amazingly, because I`ve asked them. But I sort of teared up, and I still get very emotional when I think about it, because the world changed for my kids on that day.
Now, you were older. You were maybe 17 when it happened?
SLAMON: Yes, I was 17 when it happened.
PINSKY: So you were these kids` age when it happened.
SLAMON: When it happened.
PINSKY: How did it affect you and how do you make sense of bin Laden`s death now?
SLAMON: Well, for me, I was just about to start college. I was working a summer job at the time, and college is an interesting time because you`re really starting to form your own opinions. You`re not being influenced as much by your parents.
My parents were very good at explaining things to me and being open and a soundboard for me to talk about it. But it was really the first time that I had to step up and kind of do the research.
PINSKY: Were you scared when it happened?
SLAMON: Yes, I was petrified. I mean --
PINSKY: OK. And you were out here. Those kids were in New Jersey. You were out here and you were scared?
SLAMON: Yes. I was in Los Angeles. And, you know, you knew that they hit Washington and New York, and another big city is L.A. And I was petrified. I was working at UCLA at the time.
PINSKY: Do you feel like it changed the world few your you?
SLAMON: I didn`t know how much it had. I was around for the Oklahoma City bombing, too, and I remember that not happening that much. But, yes. I mean, once we really knew the full scope of what -- the planning that went into it, the fact that these weren`t just random people and random acts, it completely changed the world.
PINSKY: And now, with bin Laden`s death, what`s your take on that? And do you think you represent your peers?
SLAMON: Yes. I wouldn`t say that I represent all my peers, but I`m kind of shocked by the media response to it.
Everybody seems really excited and happy. And, you know, in college, when all of this stuff was happening, I kind of remember thinking how awful death was. And I think that it goes both ways.
I`m surprised that we`re celebrating someone`s death as much as we are. It seems kind of counterproductive to me. I`m really glad that we got him, and he`s a horrible guy, but for me it just seemed -- I can`t really wrap my head around the fact that we`re as excited about someone else dying.
PINSKY: So are you fearful that we`re going to be just like them, so to speak, as I hear a lot of young people saying?
SLAMON: Yes. I mean, where do you stop? And what point --
PINSKY: Right. As they say, with Hammurabi`s law, an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind eventually.
PINSKY: So, Dr. Boesky, I feel ambivalent. I share Joey`s ambivalence. I`m surprised that when my kids report to me what kids are feeling at school. It`s ambivalence, maybe to unhappiness about this.
So what do we do as parents? What are the things that we have to do?
BOESKY: Well, I think parents need to talk to their kids about this. And I think that they need to -- if parents are ambivalent, I think they should say that to their kids, that there nuances that go with killing.
PINSKY: What ages can tolerate those nuances? Because some kids can`t.
BOESKY: Well, that`s the thing. It`s developmentally. That`s parents` biggest mistake, telling too much to young kids and not enough to a teen.
PINSKY: So when can they tolerate the ambivalence? What age? Approximately. Approximately -- 16 to 20?
BOESKY: Oh, gosh. Like, I would say -- no, much younger than that.
PINSKY: Younger than that. OK.
BOESKY: I think even 8 years old. I mean, if you have a mature kid, even 8, to say we`ve talked about killing being a bad thing, hurting people is a bad thing, but there are some times when it might be justified.
You can talk about self-defense, you can talk about enemies in war, and that this is an example of a very bad man who did a lot of bad things, and this -- we`ve tried other things to get him, this was the last resort.
PINSKY: Should we be telling my viewers to look up Kohlberg`s stages of moral development? Is that --
BOESKY: I don`t think parents need to go that far. I think parents just need to think about their own child and what they can handle.
You know, a 6-year-old can be inquisitive and mature. Another 6-year- old might have a lot of fear still.
But I think the key is not to say he`s dead now and we`re so happy, and now we`re safe. I think we need to tone it down a little bit and to say we`re a moral nation, we like when someone gets the consequences of their actions. But I think we have to be careful not to say things like, he was a Muslim and all the Muslims are trying to kill Americans.
PINSKY: Oh, of course. Yes, of course.
BOESKY: And I think some parents, they blurt things out. And also, not to say, and now we`re safe, because the truth is there may be retaliation. He was symbolic.
And it was nice to hear the young people kind of saying it wasn`t about his death, per se, it`s symbolic as Americans. And we feel patriotic.
And I think the thing that parents can have their kids do is write a letter to the Navy SEALs, write a letter to the president of thanks. Focus more on the heroes.
PINSKY: We have less than a minute. Is that something they should do tonight? We should tell our kids to do?
BOESKY: I think it would be helpful to focus more on the heroes that got bin Laden, that were there at 9/11. Write a letter of thank you to them for keeping us safe as Americans. And that`s something that kids can do.
They want control. This abstract stuff and talking about this stuff tends to bring up anxiety in kids. They like things to do to make themselves feel better.
PINSKY: Excellent. Thank you, Dr. Boesky.
Thank you, Joey, for being here.
I want to thank Diarra and Zach for joining me as well.
Yes -- thank you, guys. I appreciate it.
And It`s OK to be ambivalent. And don`t get too caught up in black and white thinking ourselves, because that`s actually primitive. It`s -- the world is a little bit gray, and it`s OK to have some ambivalence.
Now, remember when you could just walk through an airport? Speaking of terrorism, times have changed. God, it takes a long time to get through security now. So that`s coming up next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Are you scared for your kids growing up in a world plagued by terrorism? I`ll tell you the right way to handle it when I go "On Call," next.
Plus, Jesse James, the man whose epic infidelity humiliated America`s sweetheart, Sandra Bullock. He wrote a book about it. It`s out.
Tonight, his new fiancee talks exclusively to me.
PINSKY: Now, many of you have called in tonight to tell us what you`re telling your kids about the killing of Osama bin Laden. So let`s get right to it.
I have got Ann in California.
You`re up first. What`s up, Ann?
ANN, CALIFORNIA: Hi. My 11-year-old daughter asked me if I was happy that bin Laden was dead. I told her that I was neither happy nor sad. I don`t think the death of this man will make up for the thousands that he was responsible for killing.
PINSKY: And Leah, what do you want to say?
LEAH, ILLINOIS: I agree with your last caller. I told my children no matter what they hear or see on TV, to get back at a person by killing them is not OK. The bible says thou shall not kill.
PINSKY: And Marcia, you have got something, also?
MARCIA, WASHINGTON: Yes. I told my 5-year-old -- well, we tell my 5- year-old nephew that a really bad person who had knocked down a couple of important buildings, killing a lot of people, was now dead, himself.
PINSKY: Well, interesting, guys. I mean, I think you all just represent the kind of ambivalence we`re all feeling.
I was talking about it yesterday. You`ve heard about it here today in the conversations we`ve been having.
I heard about it from my own kids, high school kids talking about this. There are many different sides of this.
Marcia, let me address you first and say, good job. That`s exactly the way you talk to a 5-year-old. You keep it on their level.
And yes, we need to think about this. And again, I`m not trying to answer this question tonight about, is it the right thing or not? This is not a philosophical conversation I`m having here, but how do we talk to our kids about this? And how do we make sure that this is an opportunity to convey to them not just our ambivalent feelings about this, but maybe our own morality, own ethics on these issues, and really think about it.
Think about it. Talk to your kids about this.
We just got this question on our Facebook page. It is from Leah. And she asks, "Why do traumatic events trigger anxiety attacks?"
And, well, that seems like a sort of no-brainer, Leah. I mean, obviously things that are really intense and overwhelming trigger anxiety.
Anxiety means just fear. It`s the physiological response of fear without oftentimes there being a specific object to the fear. We call that anxiety.
An anxiety attack is when that evolves or spirals into panic. And panic is kind of a special thing. Not everyone that sees traumatic things is going to have panic. And not everyone that has anxiety is going to have panic.
So, if you`re actually having panic attacks, usually that`s a re- triggering of something else that you`re prone to either genetically, or because of previous events, or maybe you have a depression going on. So, if you`re actually having panic attacks, I would really talk to your docket doctor about that. I really would.
I want to go back to the phones. I`ve got Leslie from New York. She has a quick question.
LESLIE, NEW YORK: Hi, Dr. Drew.
I have an 8-year-old son, and he hasn`t brought up the subject of bin Laden`s death. And even though he doesn`t watch the news, it would be naive of me to think he just hasn`t heard about it. Should I bring it up to him or should I just let it go if he doesn`t say anything?
PINSKY: Yes, that is exactly a great question to ask. And if you heard Dr. Boesky a few minutes ago, the conversation I was having with her -- she`s a child psychologist -- she was saying absolutely, you should bring it up with your kids, because as you say, it would be naive to think that this doesn`t bleed into their consciousness with so much of it being covered in all media.
So, yes, bring it up, but ask questions about it. Don`t say, hey, you need to, or didn`t you know. But, just, does this bother you, have you heard about it? And keep it on their level.
As always, you can find us on Facebook, Twitter, and CNN.com/DrDrew.
Coming up --
PINSKY (voice-over): Speaking of terror, look at all the airport security. If you think you have a rough time with pat-downs, wait until you hear from our next guest.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I completely feel violated.
PINSKY: Plus, Jesse James has a new book out tonight. He broke the heart of America`s sweetheart, Sandra Bullock. James` fiancee talks to me, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Terrorism reshaped our society. Pat-downs, scanners, searches. One woman says extreme security traumatized her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She, I mean, she actually felt, touched my vagina, and I do feel violated.
PINSKY: And later, the man who broke Sandra Bullock`s heart, Jesse James, he wrote a book about his epic infidelity, it`s out tonight. I`ve got the inside scoop. I`m talking exclusively to his fiancee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): There`s been a ton of disasters in the past few weeks in the news. There`s been the tornadoes, obviously, tsunami, earthquakes. So, how does one make meaning of all this? Jeff Parness lost his best friend in New York on 9/11, and Jeff, like many of us around the world, was very traumatized, but Mr. Parness was struck by one great American trait and that is generosity and service.
So many gave millions of dollars to help. In 2004, Jeff started what is called "New York Says Thank You." That`s his organization. "New York Says Thank You." And today, with a volunteer force of 7,000, he now helps others in disaster stricken areas. I suspect they`re down in Alabama. This is a wonderful organization. Now, sometimes, it`s really difficult to find meaning. Sometimes, you have to create your own, and service is one important way to do this.
Listen, you know, I`m dealing with addicts all the time in my professional life, and when they are down and out in trying to find the way out of the depths of despair, and that`s where trauma leaves us. That`s where disaster leaves us many times. Being of help to others, being of service, simple, selfless acts of service always helps. It gives meaning where there is none, and things always do get better.
I`m thinking about the poor people now in Tuscaloosa and our wishes are out there with you guys, but there are those that are available. Reach out. Be of service. We`re sitting here today in the shadow of Osama Bin Laden`s death, thinking about 9/11. We can make meaning by being of service. Simple, selfless acts of service. Very powerful.
Now, if it weren`t for Bin Laden, we probably wouldn`t have to endure all the airport security screenings and these pat-downs as some people have to go through. Former Miss USA, Susie Castillo, says she was violated during one of them and actually posted an emotional video on YouTube after this happened. She`s here tonight to tell us what happened and what she wants the TSA to do about it. So, Susie, what is that?
SUSIE CASTILLO, FORMER MISS USA: You know, what I want to do, Dr. Drew, is empower people to speak up when they feel violated the way I was. You know, there`s these pat-downs are so different from TSA agent to TSA agent, from airport to airport, and, after speaking to the supervisor, you know, she was telling me that the reason for that is because TSA agents don`t feel comfortable giving the pat-downs.
So, you know, I think there has to be a way that, you know, TSA can protect us or, you know, screen us properly that doesn`t violate our rights. You know, we shouldn`t have to give up our rights in the name of safety, and, you know, if the screenings are different from TSA agent to TSA agent, you know, I ask myself the question, well, how effective are these screenings? Are they actually protecting us?
PINSKY: Susie, you bring up really, I think, this is actually a bigger conversation about how much we want government crawling into our private spaces in many aspects of our life. This is sort of a metaphor for that, but I want to look at what you said on YouTube. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASTILLO: I`m crying because I`m just really, really upset that, as an American, I have to go through this. And I do feel violated. I didn`t think that I would when I had to opt out of the machine, but I completely feel violated. This woman, she touched my vagina four times because she went up my leg, up both legs, from behind then turned around, and did it in the front. So, that was my experience this morning at Dulles Airport.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Susie, I don`t want to re-traumatize you. Can you talk about this experience a little bit?
PINSKY: Did you object while it was happening? Or were you just sort of stunned and frozen at the time?
CASTILLO: I was -- yes, I was definitely stunned and frozen because I had just had a TSA on my -- I was traveling on business, and I live in Los Angeles. So, on my way out of Los Angeles, I was chosen for a pat-down, and so, I had a pat-down, and I remember thinking, you know, I`ve seen so many, have heard so many stories online and on the news, and it wasn`t that bad. You know, it was fine.
And then on my way back, when I was connecting in Dallas, and, you know, again, I had to get a pat-down, I remember thinking, well, the one at L.A.X. wasn`t that bad. This is going to be a piece of cake. Let`s just do it, so I can get to my gate. And, this one was completely different. You know, the woman at L.A.X. didn`t actually touch, you know, my private area down there. And you know, she only went up my leg twice, like each leg once which seemed sufficient to me.
The woman in Dallas did each leg twice from behind and from the front and each time, with the top of her hands, you know, just made contact. And to me, that`s -- that`s really violating.
PINSKY: Were you wearing a dress?
CASTILLO: And I was just frozen.
PINSKY: Were you wearing a dress?
CASTILLO: I was wearing leggings.
CASTILLO: No, I was wearing leggings. Yes.
PINSKY: I can imagine -- I mean, frozen like scared, right?
CASTILLO: I was extremely scared, and, you know, furthermore, I do know -- I know my rights and my constitutional rights, and this is a direct violation of our Fourth Amendment rights. And that`s a huge problem.
PINSKY: And why were you selected for a pat-down? I mean, let me just say, personally, I seem to -- I must fit -- if they`re doing profiling, I must fit some profile because, literally, I get patted down and selected and pulled out of line all the time. And sometimes, they know me by name and still are busy patting me down. How does that work? How does that work that you can know who somebody personally, and then, come on, I got to pat you down? Why were you patted down?
CASTILLO: Right. Well, you know, I saw two lines. I noticed when I was at DFW that there were two lines. One that was going through the body scanner and the other was just going through the metal detector, and the line for the metal detector was actually longer, but I waited in that line. My husband and I were traveling together, and we both waited in the longer line because we`ve read about the dangerous, you know, how radiation accumulates in your body over the course of your life, and it`s dangerous, and we do travel a lot.
I have to. I have no choice but to travel for my job. I`m an actor and I`m a host. And I said, you know, I`m not going to go through those machines. I`m not going to expose myself to additional radiation.
PINSKY: I see.
CASTILLO: And so, I chose the line -- yes, I chose the line with the metal -- that was just going through the metal detector. And when I got to the front, the TSA agent that was there said, you know, ma`am, can you please step into this line? And I said, well, sir, I`ve been waiting in this line which has been longer, you know, for the purpose of -- because I`ve been seeing everybody going through the metal detector. And he`s like, well, I`m asking you to come in this line now.
And I said, well, I don`t want to go through that machine because it`s unhealthy, and, you know, it`s dangerous. And he said, well, if you choose to opt out, you`re going to get patted down. And I said, that`s fine. I will get patted down because I`m not going to go through that machine. So, that`s where it all started.
PINSKY: I get it. I get it. You didn`t fit a profile like me. But let me -- what the TSA had to say about this? They have actually a pretty clear statement, and here`s what they say. "We have reviewed this passenger`s screening experience and found that the officer followed proper procedures. We greatly appreciate the cooperation and ask for the understanding of the American people as we seek to move toward a more risk- based, intelligence-driven approach to security."
Boy, that`s a loaded -- I`m dying to know what that means, but let`s criss (ph) for another conversation. "We cannot forget the terrorists will continue to try to manipulate societal norms to evade detection. We wish we live in a world where security procedures at airport weren`t necessary, but that just isn`t the case." So, what do you say to that? We got about a minute left, Susie. How do you respond to that statement?
CASTILLO: Yes, well, you know, I appreciate their effort in trying to help us, you know, and trying to protect us and, you know, trying to keep us safe. However, they are violating our constitutional rights. They`re touching us inappropriately. And, you know, I mean, like I said, our Fourth Amendment right is just -- I take our rights and our freedoms very seriously. And I feel like it`s a slippery slope.
And there has to be, I mean, with the level of intelligence in this country, we have to come up with a more effective, less invasive form of screening passengers, because I mean, touching children inappropriately, I mean, Dr. Drew, what does that do psychologically to a kid when, you know, growing up a parent tells them, you know, nobody is allowed to touch you this way.
But now, I mean, there`s an exception to that rule? I mean, what are you supposed to tell your child? And I`ve been getting hundreds of messages from people with children who are now choosing not to travel for that reason. They don`t want to -- they just don`t want to have to go through that with their child and watch their kid.
PINSKY: Susie, important to be thinking -- you bring up a really important issue, and I think it`s actually a bigger discussion about how far we want government climbing into our lives. I really do think you bring up very important here and something for us all to think about and to talk to our kids about.
After the break, Kat Von D is here talking about fiance Jesse James, and his new book which is out tonight. She is a straight shooter who minces no words about him or his history with Sandra Bullock.
PINSKY: Sandra Bullock divorced Jesse James after she and the world learned that he cheated on her. Jesse is now engaged to "L.A. Inc" reality star, Kat Von D. I just sat down and talk to her about Jesse. You`ll see that in just a second. But first, I want to share some excerpts from Jesse`s brand-new book "American Outlaw" which is out tonight.
He publicly addresses the break-up with Sandra Bullock. Let`s start with the moment that he revealed his infidelities to Sandra Bullock. He says, "The shame and sadness that washed over me as Sandy began to cry was almost beyond measure. For a moment, I wanted to be dead." Boy, that`s powerful stuff.
According to Jesse, here`s actually where it all went wrong. He say, "I was a kid from the streets and just didn`t seem to have much in common with her friends. My hardest moments were going to premieres and awards shows. I just wish she was a teacher or something."
Now, from my conversation with Kat, she has a new book of her own "The Tattoo Chronicles." I began by asking her about her history with Jesse James.
KAT VON D, JESSE JAMES FIANCEE: For a long time, we were friends, and, you know, I never expected something to blossom from that. So, it`s actually been really great. I think that I`m the perfect girl for him and vice versa. You know, and it`s -- I don`t know. I mean, I think, obviously, everybody kind of wants to talk about, like, you know, the big scandal and all that stuff, but I feel like that stuff probably happens a lot, you know, and nobody really knows, like, you know, your walk, you know, and I think that it`s easy to judge and point fingers and stuff like that.
PINSKY: Does he think about it still? Does he feel guilt or shame or does he have to work on some stuff?
KAT VON D: I think you`d have to ask him as far as that stuff goes. I think my perception of it is, like, you know, he`s done a lot of work on himself, like, inside and before we started dating. You know, so I think that`s why we connected, you know, was like, wow, like, you know, you`ve been through some stuff and talk about losing a lot of things, you know, and seeing what`s really important in life.
And there`s a lot of vulnerability there, and he`s a really intelligent, you know, good person. So, I think that`s how we connected, but I don`t know. I think if he live in our past so much it`s like kind of pointless, you know? I`m all about, like, the present.
PINSKY: And how is the relationship with Jesse? Is it a good one?
KAT VON D: Yes, it`s great.
PINSKY: Makes you happy?
KAT VON D: Oh, yes, yes, yes. I mean, it`s always, you know, every couple has their challenges, and I think, you know, when we first started dating, it wasn`t something planned.
PINSKY: And I know how sweet and tender you are, but I also know you`re a kind of a no nonsense person.
KAT VON D: Yes.
PINSKY: You like don`t tolerate the stuff.
KAT VON D: Yes.
PINSKY: Do you worry that he`s going to -- going to have trouble with him or --
KAT VON D: No, like cheating or something?
PINSKY: That something.
KAT VON D: You know what, I remember the first time somebody asked me that, like, aren`t you worried he`s going to do the same thing? I`m like thinking, going, why would I worry about that? You know, that`s like, you know, me saying -- I mean, I don`t know. Like --
PINSKY: Well, I would say that, sometimes, I tell people, you know, if you want to know how your relationship is going to end, that`s for younger, but you guys, you know, it`s really college aged kids. Look at how their last relationship ended, and that`s how your relationship is likely to end. You`re adults. Let`s face it.
KAT VON D: We`re capable of learning, and I think with some situation like this which happens all the time but just not on such a huge platform and so amplified. You know, you`d be a fool not to learn something, like, not to walk away from the situation and learn something. You know what I mean?
KAT VON D: And I think, you know, Jesse is a pretty intelligent guy.
PINSKY: And I don`t know if people know that. I mean, he has a huge business. He`s been very successful.
KAT VON D: It`s really interesting with the tattoo things (ph), you know, you look at us like a damn tattoo chick that hangs out at railroad tracks, and he`s a biker guy that`s buff and has no brain. And it`s like no, it`s not the case, like, you know, I think the first time we actually spent time together, it was so close. I was blown away just by his vocabulary. I sounded like a dork, but it`s like, wow, like, even I didn`t imagine that, you know, he was like that.
PINSKY: I`ve heard that about him. People don`t understand that this guy is really a thinker and operates on a lot of levels. Do you want kids?
KAT VON D: Oh, no. No children for me. You know, funny thing is, I`ve known since I was seven years old that I was never going to have kids.
KAT VON D: I don`t know. I just always imagined myself as like this worldly travel gypsy lady, like, I don`t know. It`s funny. I love children and kids love me, but I`ve always -- I don`t know. I make a really good buddy, you know?
PINSKY: But not a good mom?
KAT VON D: Well, I don`t think I`d make a bad mom. I just think it`s not what I want, you know?
PINSKY: For you.
KAT VON D: Yes. And I don`t want to put my body through it and stuff. I mean, some people, I think, are born to be, you know, just maternal and stuff, and for me, I`m just very loving. I have a lot of love to give.
PINSKY: I know that about you, and I`m actually surprised to hear you say you don`t want to be a mom.
KAT VON D: Yes. I don`t know. Maybe, it`s a little bit of like a little feminist in me or something, you know?
PINSKY: OK. It`s a rebellion.
KAT VON D: A little bit. I mean, I don`t want to say that, like, I`m really passionate about my career and what I`m doing.
PINSKY: Got it.
KAT VON D: I don`t really want to end that right now. I think when you`re a parent, you have to give 100 percent.
PINSKY: Let`s talk about your life in Mexico because I have a feeling that was an important little -- so, you only until you`re four years of age, but I`ve had this feeling that it was something significant.
KAT VON D: I remember talking to my brother about like, you know, we came from nothing, you know, in Mexico when we lived there. It wasn`t -- we did not have a fancy resort life. It was, you know, in the middle of a small town and dirt floors. I just think that, like, I`m so grateful for that because I think if we remember where we come from, it makes it a lot easier to not get lost in all this stuff, you know
And it`s not just like being on TV or whatever, because I think this applies to everybody, you know, like whatever level you`re at. But for me, I feel like Mexico is a huge part of my life. I think it`s a beautiful country. It has a lot of resources to be an awesome country, you know? They got through some of their drama, but yes, you know, I love it.
PINSKY: Would it be accurate to say that because you had the security and love of your family that the traffics didn`t matter?
KAT VON D: Definitely. I mean, I always say if there`s anything, like good qualities about me, I always give that credit to my father and my mom, too. I mean, I was blessed with, like, pretty solid parents, a good family unit, and, you know, lots of love and stuff. So, it`s good. And I think my parents always taught all three of us, myself and my siblings, to just, like, stay focused on what`s important, you know, in life, and, you know, I don`t know, definitely money and success and all that stuff, that`s not what it`s all about.
PINSKY: So, how did the tattoo business get going?
KAT VON D: Much to my parent`s dismay, I got into punk rock music, and then, you know, with that I think just being always artistically inclined, I guess, like, I kind of started hanging out with the wrong crowd and --
PINSKY: How old were you?
KAT VON D: I was 14 when I did my first tattoo.
PINSKY: Which one? Where is it?
KAT VON D: On myself -- the first tattoo, funny enough is a "J" on my ankle for my first love named James.
PINSKY: Let`s see it. Come on.
KAT VON D: I think it`s out there, right there. So --
KAT VON D: Little "J," but it`s so funny because when Jesse and I started dating, he`s like, oh, that`s very appropriate. The funny little circles we make, you know? But, yes, I mean, the first tattoo I actually did on somebody was at the same time, and then, I got into my first shop when I was 16.
PINSKY: You how -- 14 when you had your first tattoo?
KAT VON D: Yes, yes.
PINSKY: How did you pick up the skill or how did you --
KAT VON D: You know, we had like a homey that was like tattooing all of us on Sundays with home made machines and stuff, and I was like, oh, I like to draw. He`s like, you should tattoo me, and I did, and I loved it. I think first my dad was like, wow, like, you did this tattoo. All these dots making an image, but then, when I started getting them, he was kind of like, oh --
PINSKY: Not so cool anymore.
KAT VON D: Yes, you know, like, you know, they weren`t very Americanized. So, to them, it was like this equals drugs or, you know, just a very bad lifestyle. You know, they didn`t really understand the art aspect of it, which a lot of people didn`t until, like, you know, the success of TV shows that kind of opened a lot of people`s minds to it.
PINSKY: In fact, I mean, sort of historically, they have a point. It sort of was an anti-social kind of a -- like you said, it was punk rock, punk to do this, but for you, it became an art form.
KAT VON D: Yes. I think so. I think it was a form, I guess, of self-expression, but, you know, I`ve never viewed tattooing as an outward thing, you know? Like, for me, I`ve always gotten them for myself. It`s not like, oh, look at me, I need attention. I actually have always just liked it, kind of like when I came in here earlier, you`re like, you get to show off your tattoos. I`m like, it`s only because it`s hot outside, but normally, I like to kind of wear long sleeves, you know? It`s not that I don`t want to share, but they`re just for me more than anything else.
PINSKY: You`re really one of my favorite people. Thank you for joining us.
KAT VON D: You are, too.
PINSKY: You`re really sweet. And I don`t know if people understand that about you because they see the tattoo --
PINSKY: Yes. You`re one of the sweetest people I`ve ever met. Thank you for joining me.
KAT VON D: Thanks for having me.
PINSKY: She really is. If you get to know her, she`s so sweet.
Still ahead, we`re going to ground zero. Jane Velez-Mitchell will show us what people are selling and wearing in the wake of Osama Bin Laden`s death.
JOY BEHAR, HOST OF "JOY BEHAR SHOW": Hey, Drew. You know, you don`t want to miss my show tonight because I`ll be talking to "View" co-host, Whoopi Goldberg, about her new Broadway musical. I know you like musicals. I heard that you cried like a baby at the "Sound of Music Revival." Is that true?
PINSKY: Well, hell, yes, it is, Joy. Seth MacFarlane and I go every year to the Hollywood when they have the live orchestra and the movie playing in the background. You guys OK with that? These guys are -- I hear a little laughter behind me, but we sing a little wise (ph) together. It`s awesome.
All right. Jane Velez-Mitchell is back at ground zero tonight. Jane, what are people saying now? Any differences in the attitudes since we learned that Osama Bin Laden had been killed?
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST OF HLN`S "ISSUES": There has been a huge shift in the attitude here on the streets of New York, Dr. Drew. Essentially, the jubilation has given way to much more somber reflection as people start to really ponder the ramifications of what`s happened. For example, there`s a lot of debate over whether the photo, the gruesome photo of Bin Laden dead should be released, and I have to show you a T-shirt that I just bought because I think it speaks volumes about one side and one school of thought.
It says, "Gotcha, dead." And on the back, it says, "You got me. I`m dead!" Now, this is crude, and this is certainly not taking the high ground. This is sort of relishing this incredible victory in some would say an unseemly fashion. There is another school of thought here with many New Yorkers saying, let`s not celebrate violence.
Let`s now transition from jubilation to something more somber, and let`s not do anything rash that could make people across the world feel humiliated. And, in some way, accelerate terrorism. The whole point is to move beyond Bin Laden, to move beyond 9/11, not to go backwards.
PINSKY: And Jane, what do you think about the pictures of him after having been shot? Do you think we should be showing those photos or not? What do you personally feel?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m going back and forth. There`s a part of me that says the closure would happen, show it, get it over with, but I have to say that in this day and age of photo shop, even if you do show those photos, Dr. Drew, there will be those people who feel that we never really walked on the moon, who will say, oh, it`s doctored, and it would be almost impossible to prove to everyone in their minds that this happened.
At this point, there`s nobody standing up and saying, hey, Bin Laden`s alive and you`re lying. So, maybe, the best thing to do would be to take the high road and say, we have the photo, we have the documentation, but, we`re going to move on.
PINSKY: It`s so interesting, Jane. By the way, thanks for these reports from New York. I really appreciate it. I love New York City, and it`s just nice to know what`s going on, really giving us the pulse there of exactly how people are feeling. I have a feeling that we`re going to see those pictures. I just don`t see any way we`re going to avoid it, but I agree with you. We all have always ambivalent feelings not just about the pictures but about the fact that we killed somebody. Eye for an eye, sort of a primitive response.
We kind of also feel like we had to do it. Remember, tonight, we`ve been talking about what to tell your kids. I hope you took something out of this. It`s a really important thing to be reaching out, discussing and don`t forget service.
We will see you tomorrow when we talk to -- now, you`re not going to want to miss this. I`ve got all four of the teen moms in here. They -- and really, no one has really interviewed them the way I plan to at anyway. You`re going to hear their story tomorrow, so don`t miss it.