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PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT

Strauss-Kahn to Appear in Bail Hearing; Interview with Ted Nugent

Aired May 18, 2011 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PIERS MORGAN, HOST: Tonight, true lies that cover the real Arnold Schwarzenegger and the mother of his love child. And the fallout from the GOP. And what it means for his career in Hollywood.

Plus the very latest on sex assault case that's a worldwide sensation. The hotel maid tells her story to a grand jury. I'll ask the country's top legal eagles how would you defend Dominique Strauss- Kahn.

And Ted Nugent, rock and roll wild man who gave the world this. Now the man they called the Nug' is best known as a man of very strong opinions, is a passionate Tea Party supporter.

TED NUGENT, MUSICIAN, ACTIVIST: We the people are supposed to have crowbars and use them. Pay attention, bureaucrats, we're coming to get you.

MORGAN: Gun-toting rocker.

NUGENT: More guns equals less crime.

MORGAN: And he's no friend of Barack Obama.

NUGENT: The White House today in 2011 is the Mao Tse Tung fan club.

MORGAN: Tonight, Ted Nugent literally no holds barred.

NUGENT: Perfect, huh?

MORGAN: This is PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT.

Good evening. We know now the identity of the mother of Arnold Schwarzenegger's love child, according to the "New York Times." She's Mildred Patricia Baena, a housekeeper for the Schwarzenegger family for 20 years. Her son with Schwarzenegger was born just days after Maria Shriver gave birth to her youngest son with the former governor.

The birth certificate for Baena's child is to the father as the man whose Baena was married to at the time. The divorce papers obtained by CNN said the couple separated less than three weeks after the birth. According to the document, Baena is a 50-year-old native from Guatemala. Take a look at these pictures obtained from TMZ. The first one shows Mildred Baena and Arnold Schwarzenegger at a private party at his home three years before she gave birth to his child. Second shows Mildred Baena dressed for a Halloween party, a year before she gave birth to the child.

And the final picture shows Baena the baby shower in her home when she was eight months pregnant.

Extraordinary pictures. Meanwhile, a source tells CNN that Arnold Schwarzenegger has three upcoming movie deals and is set to shoot a drama called "Cry Macho" this summer. However, the source says, Schwarzenegger has put the other two movie projects on hold to concentrate on this family crisis.

I want to bring in now Matt Belloni, who's a news director of the "Hollywood Reporter."

Matt, I mean, extraordinary story this. And anyone see this coming?

MATT BELLONI, THE HOLLYWOOD REPORTER: No, certainly not. There have been rumblings about Arnold and Maria that a lot of people had heard but this is certainly a surprise within Hollywood.

MORGAN: The bizarre thing for me, and I touched on this last night, is that the sequence of events appears to be that the housekeeper left. We're not quite sure under what circumstances. Whether she retired or was fired.

There are various rumors in January. And at that point, Arnold Schwarzenegger told Maria Shriver the true story about the birth of his child 14 years before.

But here's the odd thing. You know you have the impression that all hell's broken loose this week between them. And yet I saw the Schwarzeneggers together, Maria and Arnold, in Los Angeles at a restaurant about a month ago.

I had a chat with both of them. They were both very friendly. They both seemed very friendly to each other. And that was clearly some time after this bombshell had all come out. So what are we to make of all this?

BELLONI: Well, he is an actor. I mean there's been, you know, talk of them having problems for a while. But you know the interesting thing is that he has been very active in trying to start his movie career going again since he left the governorship.

So, you know, he's been out there within Hollywood trying to drum up support for a couple of movie projects. And he wants to restart the "Terminator" franchise. And there's been nothing, you know, about this at all until the revelations.

MORGAN: I mean, it can always go one of several ways when scandals hit Hollywood stars. You know, Mel Gibson, he saw his comeback movie didn't do great recently. He's got over projects in the pipeline. And they may well be successful. Others we've seen either triumph after disasters like this in their personal lives or they just go to pieces and that's the last we hear from them.

Where do you see Arnold Schwarzenegger's position here?

BELLONI: Well, Arnold is an interesting case because he does have sort of a larger-than-life persona on the screen. He's always been sort of above any of the issues in his personal life. But he's always had this stable marriage that he's had.

So the question is whether people are going to follow him to his next projects. And in my opinion, I think they probably are. This will probably blow over. And if the work that he does, if the movies are good, and if they're the kind of movies that the public wants to see him in, they'll probably come back.

MORGAN: What are the projects that Arnold Schwarzenegger is currently considering?

BELLONI: Well, there's a couple. He's already done something called "The Governator" which is an animated series, ironically about a superhero who hides his secret life from his wife Maria. But he's got that already done. And that's being shopped around. That will probably be out soon.

He's doing this drama called "Cry Macho" which starts shooting this summer. And it's really an attempt by him to broaden what his persona on screen is. It's a drama. He plays a horse raiser, a horse trainer. And he really hopes that this will allow people to see him in a different light than sort of the big macho action star which at his age he can't keep playing.

Then he's also trying to restart the "Terminator" movies. He wants to do another one. And there's active development on that. They have the director of the "Fast and the Furious" movie, latest one, attached to do that one. But, you know, that one is up in the air.

It's not necessarily certain that they'll do another "Terminator." So this comes at a very vulnerable time in his career.

MORGAN: You know, I mean I think the -- I suppose the overriding question may well be how Maria Shriver deals with this. And again I come back to this encounter I had with them which seems to suggest to me that she'd come to terms with it, although it's been an appalling situation for her to discover that she and Arnold actually -- from what I saw appeared to be getting on pretty well despite this all coming out.

So I think if she continues to not be publicly anti-him then I would imagine his movie career could be perfectly OK, couldn't it?

BELLONI: Yes. I mean, it's Hollywood. There's a lot -- it's not politics. It's Hollywood. People have a long history of supporting people's public work when their private lives aren't exactly exemplary. So you know, again, if the product is there and the work is good and people want to see it, they're more willing to over -- you know, look beyond the personal stuff.

I mean in the case of Mel Gibson, his latest movie was "The Beaver" which is sort of an odd dramatic move for him and people weren't quite sure what the movie was and they were unwilling to take that risk because, in my opinion, his personal stuff. But if Arnold does the kind of movies people want to see, then they're going to come back.

MORGAN: Matt Belloni, thank you very much.

BELLONI: Sure.

MORGAN: I now want to turn to the sexual assault case that's making headlines around the world. The IMF chief Dominique Strauss- Kahn will have a bail hearing in New York tomorrow. Currently being held on isolation on Rikers Island on charges that he sexually assaulted a hotel maid.

Lawyers for Strauss-Kahn say he will post $1 million cash bail. He'd also be placed on a 24-hour home detention with electronic monitoring.

And joining me now is criminal defense attorney, Roy Black, and defense attorney Alan Dershowitz. He's also the author of "Trials of Zion."

Let me turn to you first, Mr. Black. From everything that you're hearing tonight of this offer that's come forward from Strauss-Kahn's attorneys, does it seem to be the kind of deal you would expect to be accepted, that he will be released on bail tomorrow?

ROY BLACK, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I would think so. It's pretty reasonable. Putting up that amount of money. Wearing an ankle bracelet. Live New York. Having private security, be sure you're there. That's a typical kind of bail package that's put together in New York so I wouldn't be surprised if he's released on bail on Friday.

MORGAN: There's obviously huge conjecture from the French that he's in some way either being set up or he's being victimized by the media. That there shouldn't have been these images of him. Has he been treated any differently to anybody else would be treated in his position if they weren't well known?

BLACK: No, he's treated equally poor that we treat everybody in our criminal justice system. In New York particularly, they love this perp walk. The police have a deal with the tabloids. They'll parade you in front of them with handcuffs on. They keep you up all night. You don't shave. You look horrible.

So they have wonderful photographs for the front page of the tabloids every morning. Unfortunately, we do that with almost everybody. So of course the French are very outraged to see, you know, this violation of privacy because they put a lot of stock in that.

MORGAN: Alan Dershowitz, I mean it does some pretty extraordinary. The journalist in me says great, you know, very happy that they do this and we get these great images and we can all feast on them in the media. But in terms of this guy, his reputation, he has an incredibly powerful job, if you take the presumption of innocent until proven guilty, it's pretty unfair, isn't it?

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It's very unfair. It's very deliberate. It's intended to present him as guilty, and as looking predatory in the worst possible light. If he's granted bail, as he should be granted bail, tomorrow he will then be able to appear, not in public but appear in photographs looking like he used to look and perhaps presenting himself in a more credible way.

I think he will get bail because in addition to everything else, he has waived extradition so that if he were to escape, and the United States would seek extradition, we wouldn't run into the Roman Polanski problem, which is the big problem that faced him originally. Because the French would be very sympathetic to him and probably wouldn't extradite him.

But now that he's waived extradition, and I read his bail papers tonight, and in his own affidavit he explicitly waives extradition, it seems to me there's no real basis for believing that he's a flight risk and that's the only criteria which would justify him being held.

MORGAN: Tell me, Alan, from all the evidence that you've seen so far, and we haven't seen the whole picture, what kind of case are we looking at here, do you think? If you were defending him? And you've defended some pretty lively characters in the past. Would you feel confident at this stage of defending this successfully?

DERSHOWITZ: No, I would not feel confident. One never feels confident. At this stage of a case. At the moment, there are many things that the defense should avoid. They should avoid publicly coming out with inconsistent defenses. For example, saying on the one hand, he wasn't there, he was having lunch with his daughter, the timeline isn't correct. On the other hand, if he was there it was consensual.

Before you express what you think your defense might be, you better know what all the evidence is. What the forensic evidence is. What the testimonial evidence is.

The other thing you don't do is try to diminish the value or the worth of the alleged victim in this case, particularly since she's in a very much lower status than the defendant in this case.

Look, the hope of course is Kobe Bryant. That may be a deal could be made. Maybe a civil settlement can be worked out in advance with the alleged victim. And therefore the pressure on the prosecution to keep the case going would be diminished.

I would think that's the best tactic. And to wait of course push that tactic forward is to come out with good defenses coupled with the lack of enthusiasm that the victim might have for bringing the case. That would be the best approach I think.

MORGAN: Edward Black, I mean, when you hear what Alan Dershowitz said there, do you agree with him in terms of the tactics?

BLACK: Not necessarily. Piers, look, let's face it. There's only one defense in this case, and that's consent. That it was consensual sex. Now look what they claim happens here. They claim he's naked in the bathroom. As soon as the maid comes into the room, without even looking at her, he jumps out of the bathroom and supposedly drags her into the bedroom and forces to have sex.

Now that doesn't seem particularly logical to me. What I will do, what -- forget about bail right now, I would rent that hotel room, I'd put a forensic team in there, tear it apart inch by inch. I get every piece of clothing my client had. I'm going to photograph his body. Every square inch of it.

I'm going to put somebody to live in the same apartment building where that woman is. And I want to find out how she hired this high- powered PI lawyer who's going to file a civil suit for her.

I don't think sitting back helps at all. You got to be aggressive in these cases.

MORGAN: Well --

DERSHOWITZ: I agree with that completely. I agree with that, and of course the police already have done that. They have cut out a piece of rug, looking for DNA. You know, you should always look for all the evidence in the case. But you should anticipate the evidence may not in the end help your client.

And therefore, yes, be aggressive in an investigative way, but don't be aggressive in putting forward a defense which in the end will backfire and hurt your credibility and the credibility of your client. So yes, be active, but be active, consistent with the evidence and the facts in the case.

MORGAN: Alan Dershowitz?

DERSHOWITZ: You know, Eliot --

(CROSSTALK)

DERSHOWITZ: We'd agree because we do cases together. And Alan is exactly right about that. But I guarantee you, the police have overlooked loads of stuff in that suite.

MORGAN: OK.

DERSHOWITZ: You've got to get your hands on that hotel suite.

MORGAN: Well, I've got to leave it there but it's absolutely fascinating story. It twists and turns with every day. And we will doubtless find out more tomorrow.

Gentlemen, thank you both very much.

BLACK: Thank you.

DERSHOWITZ: Thank you, Piers.

MORGAN: When we come back, the man they call the Motor City mad man. Ted Nugent stops by for a quite extraordinary, dare I say explosive, encounter.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORGAN: Ted Nugent is one opinionated man. And he shares some of those opinions in his book, "Ted, White and Blue: The Nugent Manifesto." And Ted Nugent joins me now.

Ted Nugent --

NUGENT: Greetings. How are you, Piers?

MORGAN: I've been looking forward to this.

NUGENT: Thanks for having me here, man.

MORGAN: Look, I'm going to say, for probably all the wrong reasons, I've been looking forward to this.

NUGENT: Good.

MORGAN: It's like meeting a kind of --

NUGENT: There are no wrong reasons.

MORGAN: Television matador. I've seen all your previous interviews, you're like --

NUGENT: And you're the bull? I'm the matador --

MORGAN: I'm not sure yet. I'm not sure --

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: You're confident, are you?

NUGENT: Yes. And you noticed that.

MORGAN: You think you're going to take me down?

NUGENT: No, not at all. Are you -- do you need to be taken -- if you need to be taken down, I shall respond.

MORGAN: No, but I read a great line where you gave this interview --

NUGENT: All my lines are great but go ahead.

MORGAN: You gave an interview to some guy on a BBC show. NUGENT: Boy, did they need me there, huh?

MORGAN: And just to describe how you thought went with this British interview, you said they sent this young limey prick who pretended to be my friend. He tried to -- with me on all these political correct levels. I gutted him. I danced on his skull.

NUGENT: But before I gutted him --

MORGAN: Will you dance on my skull, Ted?

NUGENT: But before I gutted him and danced on his skull, I was so hospitable loving and welcoming him to the Nugent tribe that when he tried his little tricks on me and his leftist thing against my hunting and my guns, for example, how could I not gut him?

But I gutted him with tender loving care and with truth and logic. And even at the end, he finally went uncle, it was beautiful because I'm right and he was wrong. It's the story of my life.

MORGAN: I mean you have this completely -- you have this completely, I don't know irrefutable self-logic that everything you say is right.

NUGENT: Yes, your point would be what?

(LAUGHTER)

MORGAN: My point would be -- I mean do you ever accept you might be wrong?

NUGENT: Mrs. Nugent is here. Was there a time --

(LAUGHTER)

NUGENT: Let's put it this way. I'm 63. I've been clean and sober my whole life. I was raised in a hard core disciplined environment. To be the best that I can be. And not guess at things but to study evidence. Study conditions. Be aware of my cause and effect.

And make a decision not based on what felt good or what was comfortable for me but rather what lessons of life taught me. So when I put forth what people call an opinion -- I mean and you stop me if you disagree with my opinion, I'm sure you will. But I don't -- I don't project opinions as much as I do share observations of life's realities and the evidence that brings either a quality of life when adhered and learned from or just destroyed life when ignored and not learned.

MORGAN: What was your view of America right now?

NUGENT: My view of America right now is so beautiful I can hardly stand myself. Now that being said, we want to celebrate the good while we scrutinize and put our heart and soul into fixing the bad and ugly. So there's lots of good. Americans are still producing and still giving.

We have the terrible victims of the floods now in the Mississippi. We have the terrible victims of the fires in Texas. We have the tragedy of the victims of the tornadoes in the south.

You know what I think about America? Unlimited generosity. People traveling thousands of miles to help people they don't even know. That's the glowing unstoppable good --

MORGAN: What don't you like about America?

NUGENT: I don't like about America is what is being celebrated in politics, where instead of being the best that you can be, we seem to be engineering more and more safety nets, which creates, encourages and rewards an uncaring disconnect.

MORGAN: What do you mean safety nets?

NUGENT: Well, safety nets. Welfare for example. Welfare isn't just about helping the needy anymore. Welfare is now about rewarding people who take advantage of the corruption and the abuse of that condition.

That's more widespread than actual needy people getting help. I mean I don't know how often you shop around this country, or how often you hang out with people around this country. But it is not like the president said.

The America he doesn't know that people are using food stamps for something other than good nutrition. You gotta be kidding me. We got a bunch of idiots out there that are absolutely raping and pillaging an otherwise positive humanitarian system.

MORGAN: But one of the problems -- I've studied your work for a while.

NUGENT: Have you?

MORGAN: And I admire --

NUGENT: No wonder you glow. You have a certain glow.

MORGAN: Well, I admire the passion you bring. I don't have a problem with people having opinions. Even if I don't agree with some of them.

My issue about you and the welfare thing is it showed -- to me it showed no sense of compassion for people who have genuine problems. Who genuinely need it.

NUGENT: Well, you see --

MORGAN: Your judgment, if you don't mind me saying, is all encompassing. All sweeping. You think they're all on the fiddle.

NUGENT: No, I don't. MORGAN: They're all --

NUGENT: No, I don't. But I don't think, I know, and the statistics support -- once again my sharing with you the statistics, that the abuse, the corruption in that system, is not about helping someone who through no fault of their own fell on hard times, but widespread abuse.

MORGAN: Yes, but I said you say, you don't have a welfare system for ex-armed forces people, for example.

NUGENT: Well, certainly I've always raved that the most important, the most deserving, are those -- the children who through no fault of their own encounter horrible diseases and conditions and the heroes the military who literally knowingly went into harm's way to sacrifice their limbs.

MORGAN: Which I agree with.

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: And I have a brother who's in the British army --

NUGENT: But let me put it this way --

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: Let me finish my thought on that.

NUGENT: All right.

MORGAN: I have a brother who's in the army so --

NUGENT: God bless --

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: That doesn't mean to say that they are any less susceptible to being corrupt when it comes to welfare than anybody else, does it?

NUGENT: No, not at all. In fact, there's a lot of corruption, a lot of waste in even those government programs. I mean I know a lot of guys. My wife and my family and I do charity work for military heroes all the time.

And I got guys with no legs that went into that war on terror hell storm knowing that they would probably come out with any legs or arms, maybe in a flag-draped coffin but they went anyway because that's the warrior's spirit that they have.

And they're still waiting for their prosthetics. They're still waiting for the special wheelchair. But maybe there's some child rapist in prison who's getting a new liver transplant this week. That's the corruption and the abuse in a most outrageous --

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: Well, you're very -- you're very, very pro the troops. I get that. But you yourself, I mean you dodged the draft.

NUGENT: No. Now, see, I'm glad we're here on the Piers Morgan show to set that straight for the 10 million --

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: Set the record straight.

NUGENT: No, did I not dodge the draft. I was 17, and I was a clueless idiot, which most 17s qualify. I bet you were --

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: I was quite suave.

MORGAN: Being that as it may, no, I was enrolled in Oakland Community College. And I had a one-wide deferment. Did I register -- I registered. Did I volunteer? No. Should I have? Yes.

MORGAN: Do you regret that?

NUGENT: You know, I do regret it on one level. On the most important, fundamental level, is that I have a duty to earn this experiments in we the people self-government. And I've spent my time and I've intentionally put myself in harm's way going over to Iraq and Afghanistan, right into hell zones of unnamed trenches in Afghanistan danger zones, I do --

MORGAN: Is part of that a guilt thing on your part?

NUGENT: No, not a guilt thing. It was just the right thing to do. At some point, you know, let's pretend I was a heroin addict when I was 17. Would you bring that up if I'd been clean and sober for 50 years?

MORGAN: Probably, yes.

NUGENT: You're such a bastard.

(LAUGHTER)

NUGENT: See, I wouldn't. I would say, my god, you haven't done that stupid thing in so long, let's stick with the clean and sober longevity instead of going back and nitpicking of something you obviously overcame. So I was a foolish young man who didn't understand --

MORGAN: Yes. And how --

NUGENT: How's this, Piers, when I graduated -- how old are you?

MORGAN: I'm 46. NUGENT: All right. I know you respect your elders. I'll be 63. When I graduated, if you said, so, Mr. Nugent, tell me all about communism, I'd go, isn't that where the hippies get together and live?

I was clueless. In my American education u upbringing, I never heard about communism. I didn't know anything about it.

(CROSSTALK)

NUGENT: So you think I regret not making a decision based on not knowing anything? And I've made up for it since. Not through guilt but through the maturity of finally knowing what the right thing to do is and know I was a little bit late. I at least carried my own M-16 when I was over there.

MORGAN: Well, yes, I mean that all sounds heroic, but the truth is when --

NUGENT: No, I wasn't heroic. The guys who were --

MORGAN: Yes. That's what I'm going to say. You had the option when you were young to (INAUDIBLE) in that. You should have done that.

(CROSSTALK)

NUGENT: I was too young and stupid to know that.

MORGAN: And when I see the way you are now with the armed forces and the fact --

NUGENT: Well, how about they call the guys a chicken hawk? I was 17 and 18. Why don't you give me a break? That was, what, 50 years ago --

MORGAN: But lots of 17 --

NUGENT: Forty-some years.

MORGAN: Lots of 17 and 18-year-olds at the time went to war in Vietnam.

NUGENT: Better people than I. Better men than I.

MORGAN: And that's -- can I just come about once more to the motivation for why you now do so much stuff?

NUGENT: Because I've learned that freedom is not free and I found that the reason the whole world sucks and America sucks less is because the U.S. Constitution, the Bill of Rights, outlines an experiment where freedom rules the day of individuality and that that can only be secured by crushing those enemies that would take it away.

So those warriors that put themselves in the face of that evil enemy and anybody who would take away our individual rights and individual freedom, they're the enemy, they need to be killed. And I have the guys that went over and did that, they paid the ultimate sacrifice. I've done so many benefits for so many families of dead heroes of the military. I've held so many kids and mothers crying. I've carried flag-draped coffins home from Baghdad.

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: Let me go to a break. If you have the time again I suspect now the Ted Nugent you've become, you'd go to Vietnam, wouldn't you?

NUGENT: Damn right I would.

MORGAN: So that would be in your eyes the biggest mistake of your life, do you think?

NUGENT: No, because --

MORGAN: Is there any nobler sacrifice?

NUGENT: There is no nobler sacrifice. None, but you have to be wise enough, knowledgeable enough, to make such a noble decision and I was incapable of both at that age.

MORGAN: OK. We're going on a short break. When we come back, I want to talk to you about politic, Tea Party --

NUGENT: I love those things.

MORGAN: President Obama.

NUGENT: I love President Obama.

MORGAN: Race for the White House. All of it. You ready to roll?

NUGENT: You bet.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NUGENT: I was in Chicago last week. I was in Chicago. I said, hey, Obama, you might want to suck on one of these, you punk.

You don't -- Obama, he's a piece of (EXPLETIVE DELETED), and I told him to suck on my machine gun. Let's here it for him.

Then in New York, I said, hey, Hillary, you might want to ride one of these in the sunset, you worthless (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: I mean --

NUGENT: Wait a second. Did you enjoy that or didn't you? MORGAN: No, I'm amused by your reaction. You're still finding that hilarious.

NUGENT: How could you not be amused? It's hilarious. I'm on a rock-and-roll stage. I just sang a song about feisty (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I mean, you got to be kidding me. On a rock -- did you ever see Richard Pryor live? How about Sam Kinison? How about Lenny Bruce? I'm one of them. Get over it. That's some funny (EXPLETIVE DELETED.

MORGAN: For a man who is a -- who is a patriot, who purports to love his country, that was quite shocking disrespect to your president.

NUGENT: Well, let me put it in official CNN Piers Morgan interview terms, shall I?

MORGAN: Yes.

NUGENT: My limey friend.

MORGAN: Yes.

NUGENT: Anybody that wants to disarm me can drop dead. Anybody that wants to make me unarmed and helpless, people that want to literally create the proven places where more innocents are killed called gun-free zones, we're going to beat you. We're going to vote you out of office or suck on my machine gun. You can take it whichever you --

MORGAN: Much as I'd love to suck on your machine gun, the whole point -- the whole point of your defense is that a lot of people do drop dead precisely because you are armed to the teeth. And you'd like everybody else to be.

NUGENT: Not true at all. Not true at all.

MORGAN: Eighty people --

NUGENT: Piers, write this down --

MORGAN: You write this down. Eighty people a day die in America from gunshots.

NUGENT: And 75 of them to 78 of them -- statistics by the Uniform Crime Report by the FBI and the U.N. study on violent crime -- 78 of those 80 are let out of their cages by corrupt judges and prosecutors who know the recidivism is out of control, know that they'll commit the crimes again, and they let them walk through plea bargaining, early release, and programs.

Kiss my ass. Where you have the most armed citizens in America, you have the lowest violent crime rate. Where you have the worst gun control, you have the highest crime rate.

Piers, choose one. Do you want a lot of crime? We have it. Gun-free zones. You want less crime? We have that. More people with concealed weapons permit. Why do you guys resist that statistic?

MORGAN: Well, don't say you guys.

NUGENT: You guys. Well, unless you're playing the devil's advocate.

MORGAN: I can play any advocate I like. It's my show.

NUGENT: You're doing a good job. You're playing the idiot's advocate here. More guns equals less crime. Period.

MORGAN: Unless I'm wrong -- and I don't want to kiss your ass --

NUGENT: And I'll be sure to let you know.

MORGAN: -- at this point, if you don't mind. Unless I'm wrong with your argument -- well, you're basically saying that, you know, 90 percent of the gun crime comes from people that --

NUGENT: It's 96 percent but go ahead.

MORGAN: But they still have to get access to firearms. If you had your way, there would be 10 times as many firearms, right?

NUGENT: Not true at all.

MORGAN: You want everyone in America to own a gun?

NUGENT: Not at all. I've never said that. And I got to tell you --

MORGAN: What is your position?

NUGENT: -- and I hope you don't edit this out. Whenever I've done interviews with guys that are inclined to be anti-gun, they always go, well, Nugent, you want everyone to have a machine gun. Nugent wants all the deer dead.

MORGAN: What does Nugent want?

NUGENT: Not even close.

MORGAN: What do you want?

NUGENT: What I want is the Second Amendment. We the people, free individuals to have the right to keep and bear arms for self- defense. Find fault with that.

MORGAN: Well, I could find lots of fault with it.

NUGENT: Name one.

MORGAN: Well, the reality is you end up with what happened to Gabby Giffords in Tucson.

NUGENT: That guy had gone through the cracks of the mental health system. That guy had --

MORGAN: How could he be allowed to get a gun?

NUGENT: Because he fell through the cracks, and he didn't -- he didn't qualify to get a gun.

MORGAN: He fell through the cracks.

NUGENT: The cracks of the mental health system. Everybody knew -- all his friends, his family was afraid of this guy, but they didn't report it. Nobody -- nobody reacted to it.

MORGAN: When you see a guy like that get open access to firearms because the Constitution that you subscribe -- adhere to so much --

NUGENT: How would you fix that?

MORGAN: Well, I would certainly make it a lot harder for people like him to ever get near a firearm. And that's my argument with the gun lobbying is that it's always very, very aggressive. And even as you've just exploded with me, it's always a violent debate. And it's always like I want the right to shoot anyone that comes near me who threatens me.

It's always about that. This guy was unstable but was able to go and get a firearm because they are freely available in this country. And that's where I have a problem with it.

NUGENT: Were you born in England?

MORGAN: I was born in England.

NUGENT: Are you familiar with Ireland?

MORGAN: I am.

NUGENT: Is Molotov cocktails and C4 explosives -- those legal in Belfast?

MORGAN: They're terrorists.

NUGENT: Are those -- is that -- are those items legal in Belfast?

MORGAN: Well, I don't live in Belfast.

NUGENT: Well, then I'll go ahead and educate you. They're banned in Belfast. They're forbidden in Belfast. Do you think anybody had a hard time getting them? If you want something -- how about in New York City it would take me 15 minutes for me to get a submachine gun in New York City from some paroled crack dealer.

MORGAN: Let me spin the argument. Would you agree drugs then to be freely available?

NUGENT: Not at all. MORGAN: What's the difference in the argument?

NUGENT: Because drugs are 100 percent about reducing your level of responsibility, getting high, disconnecting, and I'm a cop. I've been a cop for 35 years. I conduct federal raids with the heroes of law enforcement in Texas. In every instance where there is violence, somebody's high on something, but they're not always in possession of a firearm.

They do it with Buicks and bricks and fire and chainsaws and --

MORGAN: The guy who shot Gabby Giffords wasn't high. That wasn't a factor.

NUGENT: No, but he was mentally deranged.

MORGAN: My point about the threat of your argument is you're saying -- there's a difference, isn't there, between -- you're saying guns should be made freely available, right?

NUGENT: No, no, there should be restrictions.

MORGAN: Because if you -- let me ask -- let me put something to you. Do you think this is wrong, tell me. They should be made available with some restrictions, but not many, from the gun lobby arguments I've read --

NUGENT: Which --

MORGAN: -- and then actually the reason is if you made them illegal, they would all be freely available anyway. But with drugs, you say do not make them freely available, make them illegal. Even though you know and I know that drives them underground and probably more people get --

NUGENT: Piers, Piers, I don't know why you guys either don't study the information or you just resist it. I think you're resisting it. In America, where you have more citizens with guns on their person, you have a dramatic reduction in violent crime.

In those areas called gun-free zones, you have a outrageous increase in the loss of innocent lives. That's the choice. Which one would you make? And in America, legally owned guns are used millions of times a year to save innocent lives. You certainly don't believe in calling 911 to stop evil in your home, do you?

You don't believe that being unarmed and helpless is a desirable condition? You think unarmed and helpless is something you can control over me? That's weird.

MORGAN: Well, you're putting a lot of words into my mouth. What I do believe is where you dramatically increase the prevalence of guns, more people will die from gun --

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: And you don't believe that?

NUGENT: Not only do I -- the FBI doesn't believe it. The FBI recent report in those jurisdictions where more people have concealed weapons permit -- that doesn't mean a gun in a truck or in a safe, means a gun in their belt. In those jurisdictions, you have not only a dramatic decrease in violent crime, but a personal assault type crimes -- carjacking, rape, home invasions -- they don't just go down, Piers, they go away.

Now that you know that, why wouldn't you help me create more safe areas?

MORGAN: We'll have a break. When we come back, we'll talk about what we're supposed to be talking about, which is President Obama.

NUGENT: I'm with you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NUGENT: There are bigger fish to fry than white-tailed deer right now. And the fried fish are the corrupt power-abusing monsters that have weaseled their way into our lives and they control our paychecks and decide to take money from the people who've worked so hard and give it to idiots.

(CHEERING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NUGENT: I like that cowboy hat.

MORGAN: Well, that was a -- I love that hat, too -- the Sarah Palin rally. From what I can read, she's the only one you have any time for in the GOP, right?

NUGENT: No. You know, I admire a lot of them. I have the greatest governor in the world. My governor shoots coyotes. What does yours do? Governor Rick Perry's a great man.

MORGAN: But let me show you a few pictures. Let's go through the GOP candidates.

NUGENT: Well-groomed young man.

MORGAN: Mitt Romney, your thoughts?

NUGENT: A good man. Not great enough.

MORGAN: Too good for you?

NUGENT: You know, when did Mr. Rogers open up the school of articulation? This guy needs to grow some nuts. This guy doesn't have any passion. We need to get somebody with some feisty attitude. We're in a terrible condition right now. We don't need to very careful about our situation.

MORGAN: Here's a guy with passion.

NUGENT: He does have some passion.

MORGAN: And he's got nuts.

NUGENT: And he does have some nuts and I admire that. I don't think he's presidential.

MORGAN: Did you agree with him about the birther issue?

NUGENT: You know, I agree that we should be able to demand evidence and I, like he and many others, I had not seen the official document. And I think we the people should be able to demand of our elected officials --

MORGAN: Have you seen Sarah Palin's?

NUGENT: I have not seen -- but she's not president.

MORGAN: Why aren't you demanding to see hers?

NUGENT: If she runs for president I would.

MORGAN: Yes, but some say that the only reason people wanted to see Obama's was because he's an African-American.

NUGENT: And isn't that offensive? Isn't that pathetic that they have to reduce it to a race issue? That is the most evil, rotten, soulless condition in America that as soon as you disagree with someone of a different color, that the racist accusations fly. That is soulless, inaccurate, and wrong.

MORGAN: Fine. Have you ever asked to see the birth certificate of any other president or presidential candidate?

NUGENT: No, I haven't.

MORGAN: Why not?

NUGENT: I was never active enough in politics --

MORGAN: Why is it so important -- why is it so important?

NUGENT: Because the question came up whether he -- here's what I would expect, Piers, and I think -- are you an American citizen now?

MORGAN: Not yet.

NUGENT: Well, I'll help you.

MORGAN: A British citizen.

NUGENT: Just hanging out with me is a feather in your cap.

MORGAN: Probably putting me off.

NUGENT: Somebody bring him a gun. What we need to do in this country is do what the Tea Party is doing. Get our heads out of our ass and get involved. This experiment self-government demands that we all participate. Now we're getting more involved. But I would like to believe that there is a legislature, that there are senators and congressmen that would make sure the guy that's president qualifies.

Call me weird. I didn't think I, the guitar players, had to check these guys out. So once the question came up --

MORGAN: Ted, Ted --

NUGENT: -- many of us wanted to ask that question.

MORGAN: If you're so determined to get these questions answered, when are you going to start asking where Sarah Palin's birth certificate is?

NUGENT: The minute she -- the minute she runs for president.

MORGAN: You will?

NUGENT: Absolutely. I would say at this point in time, we have now established we need to see the proof that you're qualified no matter who it is.

MORGAN: Great. So you would like to see every candidate --

NUGENT: I think we need to -- either that or create --

MORGAN: Prove they're Americans.

NUGENT: -- create a -- create a panel -- a government panel that hopefully we could trust. Wait a minute. Never mind. Yes, I would want to see it.

MORGAN: Are you -- are you an American? Were you born here?

NUGENT: Hopelessly, yes.

MORGAN: I've got a feeling you probably were.

NUGENT: Yes, good feeling.

MORGAN: Hard to imagine you being born anywhere else.

NUGENT: You have some instincts. Are you a predator?

MORGAN: Newt Gingrich?

NUGENT: Probably the smartest guy out there and when he speaks, he speaks for me.

MORGAN: Would you vote for him?

NUGENT: Right now, yes.

MORGAN: Interesting. Tim Pawlenty?

NUGENT: A great man. Did great things up there in Minnesota. Am I right, Minnesota? Great man. When he speaks, he speaks logic, he speaks Constitution and Bill of Rights. I like that.

MORGAN: Why are you such a big fan of Sarah Palin?

NUGENT: Because it's quintessential American politics. And let me run you down the timeline. Housewife, mother, Alaska, taking care of homes, saw some politics that she didn't thought -- think was right, started asking questions, found out that her hunches were right and that there was corruption and there was misdirection in the local government of, I believe, Wasilla, Alaska, right next to Trapper's Creek where I bear hunt.

And she got involved as just a citizen. She became mayor because she voiced concerns that were supported by the majority of her neighbors. Sure politics. American, we the people politics, personified. And then she identified other corruption in less than ideal performance by politicians.

She became governor with the support of the majority. A housewife, mayor, governor and then brought in -- I never even heard of her until my buddy John wanted her to be the vice presidential candidate. And then I did some research and I went, no wonder I like Alaska so much, you had an ass kicker in there, had somebody taking care of business, fixing things, getting rid of wasteful taxes and demanding accountability.

So I admire Sarah Palin across the board. Great woman, perfect American.

MORGAN: Other than that, you're quite keen on that?

NUGENT: Other than that what?

MORGAN: You're quite keen on that?

NUGENT: Yes, I'm keen on that. Plus, she's so good looking.

MORGAN: I need a break after that quite nauseating tidbit. So we'll have a short break.

NUGENT: You're damn right we need a break.

MORGAN: When we come back --

NUGENT: Take a break, Piers, I'll be right here.

MORGAN: When we come back, we're going to talk to you about homophobia. That should fire you up a bit.

NUGENT: I'm sorry to hear you're having that problem. I can help you with that. I'm gay. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KOBE BRYANT, NBA BASKETBALL PLAYER: There are all kinds of different people in the world. That's what makes the world special. So whether is different than you in race --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ethnicity.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Political beliefs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Religion.

BRYANT: Or sexual orientation, words can be hurtful. Replace them with understanding, compassion, and acceptance. Let's make this a better world for all of us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALES: Because we're all in this together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NUGENT: Amen. I like that. We're all in this together.

MORGAN: Well, yes, except that Kobe Bryant was fined 100,000 dollars for using a gay slur during a Lakers' game. And Ted, you wrote a piece after and I'm going to read what you said here. You said that homosexuals are the most protected class of people in America.

And you said, and I quote, "The NBA should hold homosexual night during halftime and homosexuals could come down on the court, hold hands, prance around the court to music by The Village People." You also said that homosexuality was morally wrong.

NUGENT: Do you have a problem with that?

(CROSS TALK)

NUGENT: That's like Clapton trap. No, let's put it this way. If you're gay, have a nice day. I could give a rat's ass. I don't --

MORGAN: Are you homophobic?

NUGENT: Not at all, no.

MORGAN: Would you be happy if one of your --

NUGENT: I'm heterophiliac.

MORGAN: What's a heterophiliac?

NUGENT: It means I'm hopelessly addicted to women -- woman.

MORGAN: Right. If one of your children came up and say, Dad, I'm gay. How would you react to that? NUGENT: I'd say, get the gun, let's go kill a dear. Inconsequential.

MORGAN: You wouldn't mind morally?

NUGENT: Not at all. I am repulsed at the concept of man on man sex. I think it's against nature. I think it's strange as hell. But if that's what you are, I love you.

MORGAN: But do you believe it's morally wrong? You have suggested that before.

NUGENT: You know, I'm not going to judge another's morals.

MORGAN: You judge people all the time.

NUGENT: Yes, sometimes you have to. I have to judge my bass player, and that's why I've got the greatest bass player in the world. No. I say live and let live. Like I said, gay? Go nuts. Martians? Cool. I really don't care.

MORGAN: If one of your kids -- for argument sake -- came up and said, Dad --

NUGENT: I wish you could meet all my kids. They're all wonderful.

MORGAN: I'd love to. I'd love to. I'm sure they'd be very entertaining. If they came back and said, Dad, I've got some bad news. I'm gay. I'm a vegan. I don't believe in hunting. I don't believe in firearms.

NUGENT: Go nuts.

MORGAN: Happy.

NUGENT: Absolutely happy.

MORGAN: Welcoming, family values guy.

NUGENT: Ultimately -- ultimately, all that stuff is inconsequential for the spirit of an individual. I have friends that are vegans, and we love each other. I have friends that are gay. I have friends that hate guns, but I'm going to fix them.

MORGAN: What is a quaint old thing where if there aren't any guns nobody gets shot?

NUGENT: And if there isn't any water, no one will drown. I tell you what. You work on the guns and stop the government. I'll work on the water so no one drowns anymore. I'll see you at noon.

MORGAN: You're right. Wait.

NUGENT: It's impossible.

MORGAN: If there is no water, nobody does drown.

NUGENT: Wow! All right. Then let's ban water, Piers.

MORGAN: No sunshine, nobody gets sunburned.

NUGENT: You're weird. That's impossible.

MORGAN: I'm not weird.

NUGENT: You can't ban water and you can't ban guns. Can't do it.

MORGAN: Why would you ban water?

NUGENT: To stop the drownings. We want the poor, fat children to float.

MORGAN: Now you're just be facetious.

NUGENT: No, I'm being absolutely -- if you can ban guns, I'll ban water. If you can get rid of guns, I'll get rid of water.

MORGAN: I don't necessarily want to ban guns.

NUGENT: Impossible.

MORGAN: What I don't like is the kind of violent rhetoric of the gun lobbyists to say that their way is the only way and actually all these --

NUGENT: Well, let me put it this way really loving. My way is the only way. How gentle was that? My way is about I, as a free man, have the right to defend myself and I got to tell you, I'm scared to death of people like you who might tell me I'm not allowed to defend myself because write this down -- I am allowed to defend yourself.

MORGAN: I didn't say you couldn't.

What do you think makes a proper American?

NUGENT: A proper American? Start with a positive spirit, really a Herculean work ethnic -- not just a work ethic but one that drives. If you met all my family and all my friends, my band, my team, my management, everybody, they get up early, they kick ass all day long, they cover every detail, they wallpaper, carpet, get the job done and then, boom, we go to bed later at night. And we set the alarm and we get up and start over again.

That is the quintessential American knowing that by efforts and by dedication and focus and the drive for excellence that the rewards will come your way according to your dedication. That's the American dream.

MORGAN: I like passionate people.

NUGENT: I'm a passionate son of a bitch. MORGAN: I reserve my right to disagree with you on a few things, but I like the passion with which you argue --

NUGENT: And especially when the passion is founded on such positive forces. I just want to play killer rock and roll. Perfect. I just want to go hunting and balance the --

MORGAN: Why don't we end on a moment of accord where you play a bit of rock and roll which I know I will enjoy?

MORGAN: Let me thank you first.

NUGENT: All right. Piers Morgan, sing this with me, would you?

MORGAN: A fascinating encounter.

NUGENT: All right, you ready?

(SINGING)