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Casey Anthony Trial: Dad v. Defense

Aired May 26, 2011 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, another Casey shocker. Dad, George, called back to the stand and grilled by the very man who accused him of being a child molester and a cover-up conspirator. But George isn`t taking it and lashes back.

GEORGE ANTHONY, FATHER OF CASEY: You are trying to -- you`re trying to get me upset. Treat me with a little bit of respect and you`ll get respect back.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`ll see the face off. Is the defense bullying George, and could it backfire? I`m taking your calls.

ISSUES starts now.



G. ANTHONY: You`re trying to confuse me here. You are -- yes, you are. We`re talking about the gas can and you`re talking about my granddaughter. So be specific with one and the other, so I`ll be more than glad to get to this through you. You have to be specific with me. So give me a date and I`ll answer.


G. ANTHONY: You are badgering me and trying to get me upset, sir. You`re going in an area, sir, that -- my life and my wife`s...

BAEZ: Judge, I`m going to object to this narration that let it be stricken.

G. ANTHONY: My life and my wife`s life when this started for us, we were running on fumes, going day by day, just trying to find my granddaughter. And some of these things that you`re asking me to be specific on, I`m trying to do the best I can. And just some things I might not remember exactly. I think that happens to anyone.

But when you get into this thing with you and I, sir, you`re going off in a way to get me more upset, and that`s not fair. I`m just asking you to treat me with a little bit of respect and you get respect back. That`s all I`m asking.

BAEZ: Mr. Anthony, would you like to answer my question now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Commentary.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Whoa! Tonight a slew of explosive developments as Casey Anthony`s father, George, takes the stand again and has that fiery confrontation with Casey`s defense attorney, Jose Baez.

These two have become quite the enemies ever since Jose accused George in opening statements earlier this week of being a molester, claiming he sexually abused Casey from the time she was 8 years old.

Jose also accused George of being a conspirator, claiming he and Casey covered up the accidental swimming pool death of little Caylee.

And a late afternoon bombshell, just a little while ago after the jury left for the day. Jose Baez called Casey`s ex-boyfriend, Tony Lazzaro, back to the stand to ask him about a so-called shared secret that he had alluded to. Now, this was an attempt to bolster Casey`s claims of sexual abuse by her father and her brother, Lee. So here`s exactly what Tony Lazzaro said just a little while ago.


BAEZ: What was the secret that she had shared with you?

TONY LAZZARO, CASEY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: Lee Anthony tried to sexually abuse her.

BAEZ: With as much detail as you can recall, what did she say Lee Anthony did to her?

LAZZARO: He tried to feel her up.

BAEZ: Did she say whether or not he was successful in feeling her up?

LAZZARO: She said it didn`t happen.

BAEZ: Would you relate to us what she said in terms of abuse with Mr. Anthony as in much detail as you can recall.

LAZZARO: Hitting. That`s all I can remember.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK now, this sort of corroborates the defense claims about Lee, but it doesn`t corroborate the defense claims that George forced his 8-year-old daughter into oral sex. Will the jury even hear these claims by Tony Lazzaro?

This jaw-dropping drama comes right on the heels of incredible video showing the second birthday of little Caylee. Look at that precious child. She`s running around and having a good time. It hurts to look at that. We`re going to analyze this heart-breaking videotape coming up and see if it gives prosecutors a motive for murder. Look how close little Caylee is to her grandma.

I`m taking your calls. Is Casey jealous? I`m taking your calls: 1- 877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297.

But first, straight out to Florida prosecutor Stacey Honowitz who knows this case inside and out. You`re down there in Florida. Stacey, late this afternoon, you just heard the jaw dropper. Tony Lazzaro taking the stand and talking more in-depth about this secret that Casey allegedly shared with him, where basically, he said Casey said her brother, Lee, tried to feel her up and didn`t and that Dad hit her. Now, does that corroborate Jose Baez`s opening statement or not?

STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Well, absolutely not. I mean, that`s the downfall. And when you open as a defense attorney and you lay down specific facts, you better have something to back it up.

But the prosecutor at the end of the case is going to stand up and say, "You heard what he told you. Where is it?"

And in this case, certainly, Jose Baez was looking for an answer which he didn`t get. It does not corroborate anything about oral sex with George, and it`s not coming in.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I want to go to Jean Casarez, "In Session" correspondent who was there at the courthouse. George and Cindy were in the room when Tony Lazzaro took the stand outside of the jury`s presence.

I saw George at one point, his head go down. What has their reaction been to this focus again for yet another day on this allegation of sexual abuse?

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": You know, Jane, I think they are just trying to get through it. Whatever the truth is, they`re trying to get through it.

George still has a Bible. He brought the Bible again today. He leafs through it. He reads the Bible. I think the Bible gives him strength. When I look at him on that stand, that`s a different George Anthony than I have ever seen.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He`s tough. He`s talking back. He is saying, "Hey, I`m not going to be pushed around." We`re going to get to that in just a second. But I want to really analyze this whole thing with Tony Lazzaro, because this is going to be so crucial.

Obviously, the defense has made a very, very inflammatory accusation. Is it going to be backed up by anybody else except for Jose Baez saying it? So Casey`s ex-boyfriend, Tony Lazzaro, just testified outside the jury`s presence that Casey once told him -- told her -- told him her brother, Lee, tried to fondle her breasts but didn`t quite succeed and that Dad, George, disciplined her by hitting her. Contrast that with Jose Baez`s claims in opening statements.


BAEZ: This child, who at 8 years old, learned to lie immediately. She can be 13 years old and have her father`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth, and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened. Nothing`s wrong. That will help you understand why no one knew that her child is dead.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Blog Talk Radio, Levi Page, physical hitting is not sexual abuse. What do you make of the contrast between his opening statement and Tony Lazzaro`s comments?

LEVI PAGE, BLOG TALK RADIO: Well, you know, we`re going to have Jesse Grund testify. That`s an ex-fiance of Casey Anthony. He`s going to testify down the road and Casey Anthony had told him something similar of Lee acting inappropriately. She also wrote to an inmate, saying that Lee Anthony and her father would both creep into her room late at night and try to lift her sports bra off of her.

But I think at the end of the day, people are going to evaluate Casey Anthony`s lying repeatedly throughout this case. She even told one of her acquaintances who testified today that she was such a good liar. Oh, my God, I`m a good liar. She bragged about that.

So I think that people at the end of the day are not going to believe anything that comes out of Casey Anthony`s mouth. And I hope she takes the stand. Because then we`ll see a prosecutor such as Jeff Ashton rip her apart and take these inconsistencies and ram them down her throat.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Listen. You referred to what this friend said. Well, we`re going to play that clip right now. The girlfriend of one of Casey`s friends talked about a phone call between Casey and some other friends made on July 3. This clip speaks for itself. Listen closely.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had told the friends that she couldn`t come pick them up to hang out with them, because she was having car trouble or that she got a flat tire or something of that nature. And as she hung up, she said -- she kind of threw the phone down on the dashboard and said, "Oh, my God, I`m such a good liar."




VELEZ-MITCHELL: There you see Casey shaking her head no. "I`m such a good liar."

But Debra Opri, witness after witness, ex-boyfriends, ex-friends, ex- people she slept over at their house have gotten on the stand and said, "She told me she worked at Universal Studios. She told me that the baby was with the nanny then." A litany of people saying she was just making stuff up out of thin air. So why should anybody believe her when it comes to this allegation of sexual abuse?

DEBRA OPRI, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Jane, let`s cut to the chase. Ready? Here`s 101 question if I were the prosecutor. If Casey Anthony was sexually abused, why in hell is she allowing her child to be cared for by her father?

Do I believe her? No! Is she insulting the jury with her defense? Litmus test here of child abuse. Yes. The jury is going to be severely insulted, and if she thinks this is going to get her off the death penalty, she`s sadly mistaken. There`s one thing that gets you off of the death penalty. It`s your remorse. And when she`s pointing the finger at an innocent man and parents, she is not showing any remorse. She`s a pathological liar, in my opinion, and this defense is going to hit them square in the face.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I got to say, you`re making a very good point. But I don`t hear these points coming from prosecutors. They`re very laid back. You`re very passionate. The opening statement, I thought, by the prosecution was very good, but it really didn`t address motive that much. It really laid out...

OPRI: Foundation, foundation.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What does that mean? Is that a rock group?

OPRI: It means that you can -- you`ve been in trials. I`ve sat with you in the courtroom.


OPRI: Before you can get evidence in, you`ve got to lay a foundation.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m talking about the opening statement.

OPRI: That`s right. You`ve got to prove it. You`ve got to prove it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, wait. Stacey...

OPRI: At the end of the day, you know what I`m going to say?


HONOWITZ: Yes. The bottom line is when you`re giving your opening statement, you`re laying a foundation what the evidence is going to show. In closing arguments, the prosecutor will shove it down his throat that he didn`t prove up anything.


HONOWITZ: The bottom line is, you know, the jury -- the judge reads an instruction to the jury. And that instruction is what the lawyers say is not evidence.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s right.

HONOWITZ: So whatever he said is not evidence.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The prosecutor could have emphasized her motive. If they say she killed her daughter, why? We`re going to talk about that, next.

And day three of the Casey Anthony murder trial. Nancy Grace reports live from Orlando, Florida, at the top of the hour. She`s always got extraordinary developments. Hang tight, everybody. We are just getting started on this. And we want you to give us a call. What are your questions?

I know we`ve got Terry in Kentucky. Hang on. We`re going to get to you on the other side, Terry. 1-877-JVM-SAYS.

Also, we`ve got more shockers in this courtroom craziness. Check this out.


BAEZ: This child, who at 8 years old learned to lie immediately. She could be 13 years old, have her father`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened. Nothing`s wrong. That will help you understand why no one knew that her child was dead.




BAEZ: What was the secret that she had shared with you?

LAZZARO: Lee Anthony tried to sexually abuse her.

BAEZ: With as much detail as you can recall, what did she say Lee Anthony did to her?

LAZZARO: He tried to feel her up.

BAEZ: Did she say whether or not he was successful in feeling her up?

LAZZARO: She said it didn`t happen.

BAEZ: Would you relate to us what she said in terms of abuse with Mr. Anthony as in much detail as you can recall.

LAZZARO: Hitting. That`s all I can remember.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Those bombshells dropped outside the presence of the jury. The jury had already left for the day. That is Tony Lazzaro, Casey`s ex. And of course, what the defense is trying to do is get some -- bolster their claim that they made in opening statements that George sexually molested Casey, that Lee tried to follow in his dad`s footsteps. But that didn`t exactly add up. All he said was that George hit Casey. Didn`t say anything about sexual abuse.

Terry in Kentucky, your question or thought. Terri?

CALLER: I do agree with your comment and many of the other comments made that the sexual abuse has not been proven.

But my comment tonight was basically about the duct tape. Even the defense was saying follow the duct tape. Actually, Casey had just as much access to that duct tape as George did. And that wasn`t really brought out from the prosecution at this point. Unless maybe they`re going to comment about that in the forensics

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I think you make an excellent point. Aphrodite Jones, when they`re not arguing about sexual abuse, it seems like duct tape is the second most popular thing to argue about in the courtroom, with the defense constantly trying to show that George had access to duct tape in the house, while Casey lived there, too. Didn`t she also have access to the duct tape?

APHRODITE JONES, HOST, INVESTIGATION DISCOVERY`S "TRUE CRIME": She did have access to the duct tape, but I think what`s happening is first of all, this morning George got so flustered about this duct tape and whether or not he had it on the can or not and how many times he returned this gas can, for me it was a strike against the prosecution. I think that Jose Baez rattled George on the stand, made him -- impeached him to some degree, because remember, George was asked point blank by prosecution yesterday, "Did you ever abuse Casey in any way?" And he said no.

Well, it turns out we find out today from Tony Lazzaro in a proffer outside the presence of the jury, that hey, Casey told her boyfriend that her father hit her. Now, that`s abuse.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s not...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to Casey.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s not putting a private part in a little girl`s mouth. I hate to be graphic, but that`s exactly what Jose Baez accused George of. A very -- probably the worst thing to accuse anybody of, aside from murder and so to say that somebody hit you in discipline, I mean, he could be referring to a spanking for all we know of a child. I`m not saying I agree with spanking, but that`s -- that`s a far cry from what Jose Baez accused -- accused George of.

JONES: Yes. Jane, here`s the thing. Obviously, there`s another issue about this testimony today by Tony. He was asked whether or not he recalled the secret that we all were precluded from hearing earlier today with the jury present. What was the secret that Casey had? And he said, "Was it abuse?"

And he said, "Yes, it was."

"And was it physical or sexual?"

And Tony`s answer was, "Oh, it was definitely physical. It was not sexual. I`d remember that."

Well, Jose Baez goes and gets the transcripts of his deposition. And guess what Tony Lazzaro told the grand jury (ph) in his deposition? He said he didn`t recall whether it was physical or sexual.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Let me get Jean Casarez`s reaction to that. Will that ever, Jean, get in front of the jury?


CASAREZ: Well, that`s a good question. We don`t know that. The judge excused Tony Lazzaro for tonight.

Here`s the challenge, Jane. There were three different versions now. All right? There`s the version the defense had in their opening statement. We know what that is. There`s the version that Tony Lazzaro said, which said that Lee tried unsuccessfully...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: More in a second.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: June 24th of 2008, did you believe that your granddaughter was alive and well and being cared for by your daughter?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you have any reason on June 24 to suspect that your granddaughter was either dead or missing?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, if you believe the defense, he knew all along, ever since the child died, because he allegedly held the dead child in his arms after she accidentally died in the family swimming pool. That`s the defense claim.

We`re going to get back to our fiery expert panel in a second, but first I want to welcome my very special guest, my friend, forensic scientist Dr. Larry Kobilinsky. So great to see you.

Dr. Kobi, in the interest of full disclosure, I know that you are a consultant to Jose Baez in this case. Dr. Kobilinsky, they were arguing on and on about the duct tape, which obviously was found over the child`s mouth, and it was also found on gas cans that George had in a shed and that Casey took at a certain point and then George put a little duct tape over a vent where a plastic cap had fallen out. Why is duct tape so significant?

DR. LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, first of all, duct tape is ubiquitous. Anybody can purchase duct tape any place. And it`s very difficult to match up two pieces of duct tape and say they had a common origin. They were from the same roll.

Some of this duct tape that allegedly is around the face of the skull, that was weathered and is not in good shape at all. So there`s a minimum amount of comparison data that you can come to.

I -- it sounds to me like they`re trying to demonstrate that George Anthony had access to duct tape. The duct tape ends up on the skull of the child, so there`s a connection.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but if you take a look at that duct tape, it says "Panko" (ph) on it. It`s very specific. And what they were saying, if we can show it again, is that it`s very few types of duct tape that have this brand right there on the surface of it. So that if you see this brand in two different places, they can connect the dots that it`s the same duct tape. So my point is, well, Casey Anthony lived at that house, and she also had access to the duct tape.

KOBILINSKY: No doubt about it. I mean, many people had access to that duct tape. And even if it is a unique kind of duct tape, there -- there`s a universe of other people that could have access to that type of duct tape.

I mean, to me the duct tape is a very important item of evidence, because we can ask a question: "Are there fingerprints?"


KOBILINSKY: Is there trace evidence? Is there DNA? Those are all important issues.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, the duct tape dovetails with the gas cans at the Anthony home, and that took center stage this morning. Listen to this.


G. ANTHONY: As I`m starting to walk down the hallway to go out through the garage because the garage door is open, Casey just brushes past me very quickly and says, "Dad, I`ll get it. I`ll get it out of the car."

As she run -- nearly runs to the back of her car, and I`m walking, just thinking, "OK, here we go. A little funny time here between her and I." As I get towards the end of the car, right at the passenger rear, just where the tail light and stuff is at, Casey opens up the trunk, throws the trunk open, and reaches in and grabs the gas can.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. So the battle over the gas cans and the duct tape together. Dr. Kobilinsky, I`d love you to come back soon and weigh in more. Because we`re going to stay on top of the forensics, as well.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Another Casey shocker. Dad George called back to the stand and grilled by the very man who accused him of being a child molester and a cover up conspirator. But George is not taking it and lashes back.


GEORGE ANTHONY, FATHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: You are badgering me. You`re trying to get me upset. Treat me with a little bit of respect and you will get respect back


VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`ll see the face off. Is the defense bullying George and could it backfire? I`m taking your calls.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was the secret that she had shared with you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lee Anthony tried to sexually abuse her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With as much detail as you can recall, what did she say Lee Anthony did to her?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He tried to feel her up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she say whether or not he was successful in feeling her up?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She said it didn`t happen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you relate to us what she said occurred in terms of abuse with Mr. Anthony as much detail as you can recall.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hitting. That`s all I can remember.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jaw-droppers promised, jaw-droppers delivered to the Casey Anthony defense case. That was Casey`s ex-boyfriend on the stand. He was testifying during a motion after court. The jury not present, they`ve gone for the day. But without a doubt, there`s going to be more drama about the inflammatory accusation made by Jose Baez that George molested his daughter and that Lee tried to do the same thing.

Will the jury hear it -- Tony Lazzaro`s statement?

Meantime, HLN has obtained this absolutely heart-wrenching video. You first saw it on Nancy Grace last night. It`s Caylee`s second birthday party. This is the most adorable child. It hurts me to watch this.

This is the most adorable child. It`s just -- it really hurts me to watch this. But I`m sure most of our viewers at home are experiencing the same angst over seeing this precious innocent.

You can`t help but notice as this video plays out. Look at Cindy smiling and the close relationship between Cindy and little Caylee. And I`m wondering if that could be construed as a motive for murder because Jean Casarez, we`ve heard so much talk if not testimony in the courtroom -- so much talk leading up to this trial about how when Caylee was born, Cindy was the first to hold the child and not her own mother, Casey. We`ve heard claims that Cindy wanted the little girl to call her "mom" and not "grandma". But it doesn`t seem like the prosecution is making those points yet.

What`s your take?

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Except -- except we heard in opening statements about the MySpace poem that Cindy Anthony wrote and posted when she didn`t know where Caylee was and it talks about the "jealousy that took you from me and all I wanted to do was love you". So I think it may come in.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, you see video there of Cindy and George in court together sitting together today.

Now, I want to go to Ron Kuby, criminal defense attorney, because a lot of people are wondering, what side is Cindy going to take? Is she going to stick up for her husband or stick up for her daughter? Now they are at loggerheads because the defense is to accuse this guy of molesting Casey and of conspiring to cover up the accidental death.

Isn`t it significant that Cindy is sitting next to her husband and not apart from him?

RON KUBY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, I am very hesitant to read too much into where people sit in the gallery just like I`m hesitant to read too much into a short snippet of birthday party Jane. We will have to see if she testifies at all, which is not clear. And if she does, what she is going to testify to.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He`s got his arm around her, Ron.



KUBY: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Give me a break.

KUBY: So what does that mean though?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: If you felt maybe this guy was a molester, would you let him -- if she was buying the defense argument would she -- help me out, Debra Opri.


DEBRA OPRI, ATTORNEY: Ok. I`m going to help you out.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold it. Debra.

OPRI: Before trial, depositions are taken. Depositions will give both sides clear notice of what the case is going to be on both sides. I can bet you that Casey`s attorney heard the deposition of the father --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t agree with you either.

OPRI: He had the evidence. Let me finish.


OPRI: Can I --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, because I don`t agree with you either. Everybody was shocked by this.

OPRI: All right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Everybody was shocked by it. We heard speculation but there was no absolute guarantee that they were going to accuse George of molestation. I mean there was foreshadowing, but there was no absolute.

Ok. Barb, Texas, your question or thought?

BARB, TEXAS (via telephone): Oh, it`s not a question. It`s a statement.


BARB: I have been a nurse for 17 years in a jail and I have been viewing this situation since the very beginning. My educated diagnosis is that she is a narcissistic sociopathic personality disorder. She is a pathological liar. And she could probably even have that poor defense attorney believing everything she says.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Very good point. Ok.

Debra, I`m going to go back to you on that. Do you think Jose Baez accepts what she says? This girl --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- by her own admission.

OPRI: Yes. He has to.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: She`s a good liar.

OPRI: I said it on the break, she is a sociopath. But the key here is when she heard her father`s deposition testimony if he was going to hurt her, I think they came up with anything that can degrade the father`s testimony and this was it. It`s not going to fly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second.



OPRI: The father and the mother -- the father and the mother are in court with the arm around him. Jane, you are absolutely correct. They are a team.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on. Stop everybody. Stop. Silence. Let`s have a moment of silence, seriously.

I want to talk about Lee. And I want to go to Jean Casarez. Where has Lee been? Because the defense is not only attacking George, attacking Lee as well, so where is Lee?

CASAREZ: What a good point. He hasn`t been there. You are exactly right. You know, he`s going to be an important witness. We`ve already heard a little bit about him. But he hasn`t been in the courtroom, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, I`m going to go back to Ron Kuby because I cut him off. Do you read anything into that? I know you don`t like to read into anything.

KUBY: No, I don`t mind reading into things, I just -- I frankly am having a lot of trouble grasping the significance of why it`s important whether Lee tried to grab the sister`s boob or not. How that plays out into whether either George Anthony committed this crime or allowed this to happen and cover up, or Casey? I think we are getting a little lost in wanting to sportscast every day`s event when George and Lee`s conduct is really sort of irrelevant. Right. How does it make any sense?


OPRI: There you are. Counsel the defense attorney.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Let me go to Aphrodite Jones on that because the whole point was, well, she was trained to keep toxic secrets. And because she was forced to allegedly keep a secret about abuse, therefore she was trained to lie and trained to ignore things. And therefore when her child accidentally died instead of calling 911 and say get the paramedics over here, maybe we can revive her, this is the defense claiming that George and Casey decided to cover it all up.

Do you buy that? And then she is going to go dancing afterwards and participate in a hot body contest. And I think we have those shots of course.

APHRODITE JONES, HOST, "TRUE CRIME": Ok. Let me address a few things here. First of all, to the brother, Lee, trying to hit on his sister, that is a big deal. That`s incest and it`s weird. An apple doesn`t fall far from a tree and it does pertain to the idea that perhaps Casey grew up in an abusive family -- a dysfunctional family and perhaps they did know that little Caylee died and her parents perhaps or George helped her cover up the death of Caylee. That is all on the table here.

KUBY: Why?


KUBY: This guy is a former detective. He`s not going to cover up a drowning. He`s a former detective. Let me just inject common sense in here for a second. I would like to speak. I think we could inject some common --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Stop it. Ok. We cut everybody`s mike. Let me see the panel and we will pick somebody.


KUBY: He`s a man. No man does that at all. Only a woman like Casey does that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second. I want to go to a prosecutor. Florida prosecutor, Stacey Honowitz, take it away.

STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Here`s the bottom line. The sexual abuse is a collateral matter. It doesn`t even exist. It has no bearing, no relevance in this case. It`s a way to explain her behavior for 31 days.

She is a sociopath. If you want to hypothetically believe that this child died by drowning, she is still walking around not crying about it? Now having any emotion, partying out, hot body? You are not trained to keep secrets when you are sexually abused. Many sexual abuse victims go on to accomplish many wonderful things in their life and that doesn`t include killing their own child.


HONOWITZ: It has become a total side show issue to this case. It says nothing on whether she killed the child.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s called --

OPRI: Called the red herring.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- put somebody else on trial.

OPRI: That`s right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me tell you something. George Anthony has been through hell. If these accusations are a lie and I see no evidence that they are true, he experienced a hellish existence. Losing his granddaughter, being attacked by everybody under the sun, having protesters outside his house and yelling things at him. He then tries to commit suicide half-heartedly and doesn`t do it.

And now before the entire world they are accusing him of molestation. If it`s not true, this man has gotten the worst rap of his life.

Quickly, Patricia Maryland, your comment, Patricia?

PATRICIA, MARYLAND (via telephone): Yes, I had a question. They said that the ex-boyfriend had -- Casey had trouble putting Caylee to sleep at night. Did they ask her how she finally got her to go to sleep? Was it bathing or whatever?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Excellent question. And we`re going to play that clip on the other side of the break. We`re going to play that very clip in a second.

Day three of the Casey Anthony murder case. You know Nancy Grace is live in Orlando, Florida. She has a whole slew of details and the very latest developments. You have to check it out in just about 20 minutes. We are wall to wall here people on this major trial. We are all over this case.

Coming up next, we are going to take more of your calls, 1-877-JVM- SAYS, and play the key statements today from the stand.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she tell you that her daughter was missing?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Or had been kidnapped?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Or that she was looking -- she was looking for her?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Or that she needed your help to help find her?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you she ever tell you that her daughter was missing?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she ever tell you that her daughter had been kidnapped?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she ever tell you that while you were out in classes she was out looking for her daughter?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she ever tell you that her daughter had been kidnapped?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That she was missing?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That while you were at school, she was actively looking --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. The prosecution is apparently married to this theme that Casey didn`t tell anybody about Caylee being kidnapped. But is that the right strategy in light of what the defense is now claiming? That the child died accidentally in the pool; she was never missing. And that Casey was too traumatized by her childhood and therefore covered up her death.

I want to go out to Ron Kuby, a criminal defense attorney. I find it kind of odd that the prosecution isn`t tailoring its questioning to the new defense strategy because if the jurors believe that she died accidentally then all this questions about kidnapping, there was no kidnapping.

We all know, everybody`s admitted there is no Zanny, there is no kidnapping. Why are they asking about that?

KUBY: You know what, in some ways the prosecution looks like it is still trying the case it thought it was going to try rather than the case that the defense put on. Because as you point out and I think quite correctly, that given what the defense has admitted, has come forward with then, you know of course, you report her child was kidnapped or missing.

She wouldn`t do that under the circumstances. Of course, she tried to act normal after it happened. That`s exactly what she tried to do under the circumstances. So I think they are just having a little trouble adapting to the defense tactics.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Stacey Honowitz, you are a Florida prosecutor. Do you think that the prosecution could have A, anticipated this because we were speculating it here on ISSUES that they were going to say it was accidental death? We had Cindy and George`s former attorney predict that on our show.

Do you think they should have anticipated it and taken the wind out of the defense`s sails by saying something to the effect of, well, you`re going to hear a lot of kooky theories but consider the source? We`re talking about a pathological liar and she wants to blame her family. Something like that.

HONOWITZ: No, I will tell you why. Because Ron knows that you never know what`s going to happen in trial. You can anticipate, you can hear rumors; you can decide what your opening statement is going to be but you never really know what the defense is going to walk in with.

If the state would have gotten up and said you`re going to hear all these kooky stories and then the defense didn`t, then the state would have been screwed. So the bottom line is they are keeping it to what they know. They will tailor it as it goes along.

And you know what? You never know what a juror is thinking. We could say we have a locked case or they`re never going to believe their theories. The prosecution`s got to get it all out there. You will see later on that they will start tailoring the case as Jose attempts to try to bring it in.

OPRI: Yes.

HONOWITZ: We have sense that it`s really never going to come out, though.

OPRI: And will present their theme.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: There is no time like the present. The clock is ticking. Jose tried to have Casey`s ex portray her as a good mom or at least not a bad mom.

Listen to what actually came out. Did he get more than he bargained for? Check this out.


JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: Did you ever see Casey torture Caylee in any way?


BAEZ: Punish her in a method that would be considered torture?

MORALES: No. She had issues with Caylee going to sleep, but I don`t know. That`s the only time I saw her disciplining Caylee.

BAEZ: You only saw her discipline Caylee once?

MORALES: No, it was re-occurring. (INAUDIBLE) -- when she was trying to put Caylee to sleep.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my gosh. He says it twice Jean Casarez. The only time he saw Casey discipline little Caylee was when she was trying to put her to sleep which is a whole theory that the chloroform was used because she wanted to put the child to sleep so she could go out dancing.

CASAREZ: That`s exactly right. And that`s the only time that any witness talked about how Casey would discipline her or have an issue. It was when she was trying to put her to sleep. And you know what else with Ricardo Morales, he had posted on his Facebook page, I think to Casey, win her over with chloroform. And that picture was introduced by the defense. So the defense put into this trial today, chloroform.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. But how many people are they going to blame? Now, they`re going to try to point the finger at the ex-boyfriend, Ricardo Morales too, Aphrodite Jones?

JONES: No, Jane. I think the point of this is to try to have us understand the possibility that Casey Anthony, why she would have looked up chloroform. Why she would have been silent during the 31 days. That`s the point that they are trying to establish here as they go witness by witness and why they want Tony Lazzaro`s testimony to come for the jury.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Sawgrass Apartments on the other side.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you learn on July 15th that what you had thought on June 22nd -- 24th was in fact not the case?

ANTHONY: That was not the case because Caylee wasn`t with us. Caylee wasn`t home.

On the 24th of June 2008, I did not know that a few weeks later that my granddaughter would be reported missing. That`s answering your question, sir, that`s the best I`ve got.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: He is suffering. The prosecution has brought on witness after witness who were either ex-boyfriends of Casey and/or male friends. Are they trying to telegraph something about Casey`s character to the jury? Listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your relationship with Casey got pretty intense at a certain -- towards the -- June and July time period. Did Casey ever tell you she loved you?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever tell Casey you loved her?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Directing your attention to June 7th of 2008, did you happen to see the defendant on that day?

MORALES: Yes, I did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where did you see her?

MORALES: She spent the night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was Caylee there?

MORALES: She was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: June 9th and 10th, did you see the defendant on those days?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where did you see her?

MORALES: She spent the night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you see Caylee on those dates as well?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Here`s my big issue. Do the math.

Levi Page, what is the prosecution telegraphing?

LEVI PAGE, "THE LEVI PAGE SHOW": Well, you know, I think that the prosecution really is going to try to paint George Anthony as a sympathetic victim in this case, and there`s many people who were very anti-George Anthony in the beginning of this case; thought he was covering for Casey who are now sympathetic to him.

Jose Baez has now turned the Anthonys who were not sympathetic to the general public into sympathetic figures. And I think what`s getting lost in the sauce here while the defense is trying to tie George Anthony to the duct tape; we need to remember that heart-shaped sticker that was on the duct tape. It was pink. Does anybody think a male ex-cop is going to put a pink heart-shaped sticker over duct tape?

No, that`s only something a brat, a narcissistic little girl like Casey would do that`s immature.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Settle down there Levi.

Aphrodite Jones, getting back to all the ex-boyfriends and male friends, what was the prosecution in bringing all these guys up, trying to telegraph if anything?

JONES: I`ll tell you, very pungent in the courtroom, I thought. And I looked at the jury. You could tell. Everybody kind of thought, what is she doing, she`s sleeping with this guy. She`s staying overnight with that guy. She`s got another guy and she`s taking her daughter with her to stay overnight with one of the boyfriends? And they slept the three of them in the bed together? And it just seems so inappropriate.

And you wonder what kind of morals does this woman have?

On the other hand, possibly if -- and I say if, big if -- if she was a victim of sexual abuse then she would only know inappropriate things to do in a bed and not think anything of putting her 2-year-old in a bed with her boyfriend.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Debra Opri. Is this trial going to get even uglier?

OPRI: It`s just starting. We have two cases being tried, two themes. The prosecution is going to stay with the murder case. The defense is going to stay with the father and anybody else is responsible. If we let these two cases merge, it`s going to start making sense. But these are all puzzle pieces to these witnesses and to this case and to their theories.

HONOWITZ: That`s not going to happen.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tomorrow, I`m sure there will be more blockbusters. And we`re going to be right back.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, back in 2008, where were you living?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sawgrass apartments.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know the address?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My current address at the time was 2867 South Conway Road, Apartment 218.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Jean Casarez, there`s a childhood friend of Casey`s saying he once lived the Sawgrass Apartments. Significance briefly?

CASAREZ: Yes, because she knew where it was and that`s where she said Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez, the nanny, lived and abducted Caylee from.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And the interesting thing is that they have now admitted that there was no Zanny the nanny and yet it seems the prosecution is still very intent on proving that she lied about Zanny the nanny and lied about Sawgrass, even though the defense has essentially conceded that. And I wonder that as a strategy.

Thank you so much.

Nancy Grace up next with the very latest.