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Dramatic Day in Casey Anthony Trial

Aired May 31, 2011 - 21:00   ET


DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.

The most dramatic day yet in Casey Anthony trial -- tears, an emotional collapse. What does the courtroom behavior of Casey and her mother reveal? Is it jealousy between a mother and a daughter? Denial?

Well, what I think, just plain old cover-up. I am ready to break it down. So let`s get started.

Some of this is so very tough to watch, and yet we just cannot turn away. I am so interested in the fact that this case resonates so deeply with many of us.

Ask yourselves, why did it grab you like this? Take a look at this, and then I`ll tell you what I think.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the biggest days of testimony that we have seen in this case.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A lot going on. A lot of emotional testimony by Cindy Anthony.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: The smell in the car was like something I had never -- it was pretty strong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Pontiac Sunfire, that`s the car that prosecutors say they believe Caylee was once in.

ANTHONY: Her favorite doll was in the car seat. I sprayed the doll. Then I sprayed Febreze all through the car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cindy Anthony, breaking down as the prosecution played tapes of her 911 calls.

ANTHONY: I found out my granddaughter has been taken. We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl. There`s something wrong. It smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.


PINSKY: Wow. I mean, it`s just such intense material. But even so, I`m still -- not bewildered, but interested in how intense our attention has been to this case and how intense our reaction is to this.

Now, I`m even surprised by the fact of what some of you said to me. I was in New York over the weekend and on Twitter. And believe it or not, on the streets people have been rather aggressive towards me for merely floating theories about the case.

Listen, this is just my job, to sit here and just try to figure this thing out with you all. I`m trying to sort this out as much as anyone else.

I think I understand why the trial is compelling. There`s no doubt about it. The Anthonys really challenge the notion of what a mother is supposed to be, right?

I mean, this is the ultimate protector of a child. It rips at one of the most fundamental relationships. Just the notion of a mother having believed to have behaved in this way threatens all of us. It really threatens the very fabric of our society.

I mean, these kinds of themes have been with us since -- well, throughout culture, throughout the time of civilization. I mean, think of Medea. The idea of a destructive, cannibalistic mother really has such a profound emotional impact on each and every one of us.

And, by the way, women`s aggression, female aggression is another thing, or violence that we have great difficulty with. And if we see evidence of that, we react in very intense emotional ways. And I think that`s what we`re all doing here.

This is day six of the Casey Anthony murder trial. Casey`s mom, Cindy Anthony, breaks down on the stand. Cindy testifies that a doll found in Casey`s car, Caylee`s baby doll -- you`re looking at it right here -- smelled like what she called death. There it is.

So Cindy said she cleaned it with a Clorox wipe. Listen.


ANTHONY: Caylee`s doll smelled like the car, so I took it out, and in our garage we have an ice chest. And I set the doll down and I went and got a Clorox wipe and wiped the face and the hands.

And the body is soft, so it smelled pretty bad. So I went and got some Febreze, and I sprayed the doll. Then I sprayed Febreze all through the car thinking that that might help the odor. I sprayed the front and the back. I used pretty much a whole can of Febreze.


PINSKY: All right. Now, Cindy is a nurse, and she said several times that Casey`s car smelled like something she had smelled before in her professional work, a decomposing body. But then she does a complete 180, changed her tune, blames the odor on a rotting pizza.

Now, I`m a physician. I`ve seen -- been to morgues and things. I don`t usually think about pizza when I go down there. I`m just saying, that`s not usually the kind of -- right?

Well, did Cindy know deep down that her granddaughter was dead, but did she then live for months in full-blow denial?

Listen to this.


ANTHONY: Caylee is missing, and continue to look for Caylee. She is not dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do you deal about what they`re saying about in the trunk of the car?

ANTHONY: There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots? It stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you ever see bruises on Caylee?

ANTHONY: I have a bruise. Am I abused?


PINSKY: Or is she trying to consciously protect her daughter?

Joining me now is host of "ISSUES" on HLN, Jane Velez-Mitchell. Also, bounty hunter Leonard Padilla. He`s here, and he spent a lot of time with the family inside their home, and even at one point bailed Casey out of jail.

And host of "In Session" on truTV, Ryan Smith, who joins us from Orlando, Florida. Ryan is also an attorney.

Ryan, can you give us the latest from the court today?

RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: Dr. Drew, we`re talking about one of the most riveting days of this case that we have seen so far. And the moment you described earlier, with her taking that dolly out of the car, the prosecutors went through the timeline, leading Cindy up to the point where she went to get that car and found that doll.

Then she finds Amy Huizenga, a friend of Casey`s, eventually finds Casey Anthony, and places those 911 calls. And in the midst of those 911 calls, finds out for the first time that Caylee has been missing 31 days. That`s why she was so emotional on those calls and breaking down as she heard them.

Now, after that, the prosecution played a jailhouse call that Casey made to Cindy Anthony and her family. And in those calls we saw a different side of Casey.

Instead of seeing someone who seemed concerned about her daughter, she was asking for Tony Lazzaro`s information. She wasn`t talking so much about Caylee.

Ad the family was pressing her, "Where`s Caylee? Where`s Caylee?" She instead, said, "I want to talk to Tony Lazzaro. Give me his number. You guys are focused on Caylee. I`m here in jail."

And it gave you a sense of a mother who wasn`t necessarily focused on her daughter.

I have to say, also, the 911 calls, this is the first time the jury is hearing this information. And, Dr. Drew, I have to tell you, Cindy Anthony broke down repeatedly in court.

That moment that you mentioned where she was hearing about those calls and asked for a break, she asked for a five-minute recess. They helped her off the stand, and she walked out arm in arm with George Anthony, who helped her get out of the courtroom. A very difficult day of testimony for her.

PINSKY: Ryan, thanks for the update.

Yes, indeed, the prosecutors did play the 911 calls made the day Casey finally admitted to her family that her 2-year-old daughter Caylee had been missing for a month. Watch this. We`re going to look at it.


ANTHONY: I called a little bit ago, the deputy sheriffs. I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Caylee`s missing. Casey said Zanny took her a month ago.

911 OPERATOR: Why are you calling now? Why didn`t you call 31 days ago?

ANTHONY: I have been looking for her and have gone through other resources to try to find her.



ANTHONY: Can I have a break, sir? Can I have a break?


ANTHONY: A break.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Let`s take a five-minute recess.


PINSKY: Brutal. You can see Cindy is emotionally drained.

I guess she asked for a break after that, Ryan.

I want to go now to Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, what is your take on today`s affairs?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES": Well, I think we watched the emotional torture of a human being. This was one of the most awful things that I have seen, because as she collapsed, completely shattered, in the jury box, in the witness stand, like that, just shattered, you can see her hair quivering. And so, obviously, the jurors are going to look at that and have compassion and empathy.

And who are they going to blame? I think they`re going to blame the defendant.

And you mentioned that the mother/daughter issues here are so crucial because we all have mothers, every single one of us. That`s the one thing we all have in common. And there has never been a mother/child relationship that didn`t have some friction.

But you are looking at the worst-case scenario here. So we`re all riveted because there`s that commonality.

And we are looking at the devastation of a family. And nobody, for all the mothers out there, nobody wants to think that their child could grow up to become a monster.

And a lot of mothers and fathers remain in denial about what their kids are really like. I think they call it the "my dog doesn`t have fleas syndrome."

So, again, people are riveted because they see, oh my gosh, am I in denial about my own child? Or if you`re a child, do I have resentment toward my mother?

So there`s so much relatability in this story. It really is a drama of Shakespearean proportions to see this woman completely destroyed by her own flesh and blood.

PINSKY: Thank you, Jane.

And Leonard, I just want to ask you, finally, is Casey capable of this, of throwing her father and her mother under the bus and feeling nothing, and maybe being the murder of her own child? Is that who this is?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: All of the above, and on top of which she is absolutely an insane young lady. When we got back there in August, no mention was made about a lot of the things that are being talked to about now.

At the time, there`s no doubt in my mind that Cindy and George knew that their granddaughter was deceased, and they kept aiming us in the direction of Jesse Grund, as well as Baez. This is before we even bailed Casey out. They kept talking about Jesse Grund, Jesse Grund, Jesse Grund.

And yet, there`s no doubt in my mind that George and Cindy knew from the smell of the car that if it wasn`t Casey that was dead, it was Caylee. Absolutely not. They had to make a decision, do they throw their daughter under the bus, or do they hang in there with her as long as they can?

That`s why the testimony -- Cindy`s testimony is going back and forth between rotting pizza and there`s a dead body in the car. That`s why George himself is conflicted as to his testimony, and some people think he`s lying. He`s not really lying, he`s digesting it, he`s stroking it, he`s massaging it.

PINSKY: Well, thank you.

All right. We`re going to have more on this. More coming up. More on Cindy Anthony`s breakdown on the stand.


PINSKY (voice-over): Cindy Anthony screams in 911 calls that her daughter`s car smells like a dead body, but then later insists her granddaughter Caylee is alive. Is Cindy a classic case of a woman in denial?

And later, Casey`s brother fights to be by his sister`s side.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Today is the day for this family to unite and display their solidarity and strength. This family is united, but this family is incomplete. I am incomplete. I`m broke.



PINSKY: Tonight, the Caylee Anthony murder trial continues.

Cindy Anthony breaks down on the stand. Listen to this.


CINDY ANTHONY: I overheard her tell Lee that Caylee had been gone for 31 days and that Zanny had taken her.



CINDY ANTHONY: I told you, my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today, but I can`t find my granddaughter. And she just admitted to me that she`s been trying to find her, herself.

There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.


PINSKY: Jane Velez-Mitchell, do you think there`s any chance Cindy is so desperate to believe her daughter is innocent that she`s buying the pool theory, or is she just covering something up?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think, actually, she scored some homeruns for the prosecution because she has insisted that after they went swimming the day before the little girl vanished, she put the ladder away. And Jose Baez really grilled her on that -- "Are you sure? Are you 100 percent sure?" And she said, "Nobody`s never 100 percent sure of anything, but to my recollection, yes, I put that ladder away."

So I think that she is really telling the truth there to the best of her recollection. And I think it`s a sign that, yes, she doesn`t buy this idea that her husband, unbeknownst to her, found the child drowned and picked it up -- picked the baby up out of the pool and then covered it all up.

I think she`s been forced to choose between believing the defense, which wants to point the finger at the husband and call him a molester and a cover-up artist, and defending her daughter, and she`s trying to dance this fine line. And it`s a tightrope, and she falls off it every so often. But I do feel that, ultimately, she is committed to herself to try to stay as close to the truth as she possibly can, because she has some --


PINSKY: Well, she actually testified that she never met the babysitter Casey claimed kidnapped Caylee.

Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did Casey tell you about Zanny the nanny?

CINDY ANTHONY: She didn`t call her "Zanny the nanny," by the way. She called her "Zanny." And she said that that was Jeff`s (ph) girlfriend, and that they lived in the same apartment complex.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you had no idea that Zanny was not a real person?

CINDY ANTHONY: No, I did not.


PINSKY: Leonard, she seems so involved in Caylee`s upbringing. How do I understand why she never even wanted to meet the babysitter?

PADILLA: Well, the thing about it is, you have to understand that Casey was a constant lie. The only thing that was standard in her life was lying.

When we were back there, and she lived with Tracy (ph), my associate, in that room for those nine days, there was never one statement made about Caylee. There was never one, "Let`s go look for Caylee." And this is while they were still on this "she was kidnapped by the Zenaida (ph) lady." There was never any mention like that. It was always like she was the cruise director on a tour ship.

Casey is insane and was probably born that way. And then you have a situation where the residence there, totally controlled 100 percent by Cindy, it created an aura of complete control over every participant in that household.

When Judge Belvin Perry said that she was probably planning on -- or why wasn`t she planning on killing the parents? He was probably pretty close to the truth, because she kept telling people that her and Amy Huizenga were going to end up with the house.

She kept saying it was as a result of a divorce, but there was nothing like that going on at the time. So don`t be surprised if it wasn`t the parents that were going to be dead, and then she would inherit the home. Casey`s totally insane. People don`t understand that.

PINSKY: Wow. Well, totally insane -- Jane, I want to go back to you. Totally insane is not a specific diagnostic category. I mean, when you look at and study --

PADILLA: It is for me.

PINSKY: When you study women that kill their children, infanticide, or killing children, you usually find psychotic depressions, you find severe mental illness. And these women go and they actually try to kill themselves usually within 24 hours of recognizing what they`ve done, or there`s some sort of fatal mismanagement of the child and then try to cover it up as an accident.


PINSKY: But, I mean, what are we looking at here in this woman? And then, of course, what`s alleged here is physical -- excuse me, sexual abuse and some sort of personality disorder where she doesn`t know right from wrong.

But what really do you think we`re talking about here?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, you make an excellent point, Dr. Drew, because in the case, for example, of Andrea Yates, who drowned her children, she was found to be very, very psychotic, and found not guilty by reason of insanity. That`s very different here.

It would appear that Casey knows right from wrong. So forget about the insanity defense. That ship has sailed. And she chose to lie.

We don`t like to believe as human beings that somebody can just be evil, can be rational, sane and evil. And it`s very hard for us.

We like to think that maybe they`re just sick, mentally ill. But sometimes people are just evil, and it`s a tough thing to swallow.

In this case, it would appear that this young lady is very rational, knows right from wrong, and makes stuff up to benefit herself, and is callous and blase. She was blase on the 911 call about the disappearance of her daughter.

Her mother Cindy is hysterical. "My granddaughter`s been missing for 31 days!" She gets on the phone with the same operator, and it`s like, yes, my daughter`s been missing for 31 days, big whoop. And it`s just so callous. The contrast is extraordinary.

PINSKY: It`s scary to watch. And it really goes -- thank you, Mr. Padilla. Thank you, Jane.

And the question here is, why are you watching the trial? What do you think about today`s testimony?

I`m going to have your questions next. One of you makes some very interesting observations about the case, Casey`s tears, and when they are turned on and when they`re turned off.



CINDY ANTHONY: It`s a blue collapsible bin from the trunk of Casey`s car. It has Casey`s doll -- or Caylee`s doll, Casey`s purse, and Caylee`s backpack. And there`s a hanger at the bottom of the basket.


PINSKY: Another intense moment from the Casey Anthony trial. We are all over this tonight.

In the meantime, our e-mail, Facebook and Twitter pages continue to be flooded with your comments and questions about it. So let us get to the phones first.

I have got Joanne from Oregon.

Go ahead.


PINSKY: Joanne.

JOANNE: I have two daughters around Casey`s age. I just want to say that I see Casey Anthony as a self-absorbed calculating young woman who`s showing how much hurt she can inflict on another human being.

But my question is, when you know that your adult child has done something terribly wrong, isn`t there ever a point where we should just throw up our arms and say, enough is enough, to protect ourselves?

PINSKY: And it`s not even so much about protecting yourselves, though it`s a reasonable thing to do, to just take care of yourself. But the fact is, what I see so often in families, that they will go to any length to rescue a child who really needs to face the consequences of their actions.

They may not be responsible for some of the circumstances that come to bear in their life that cause the behaviors in the present, but they must bear the consequences and they`re responsible to change. That`s their responsibility, not the parents of an adult child.

Yes, don`t -- every family has to make a decision about this. Some parents want to go to the mat. But I`ll tell you what, at a certain point, I believe you let them take a fall.

We have a Facebook question from Keith. He asks, "Can we blame the trauma in someone`s childhood for the habitual lies they tell in their adulthood?"

I think the operant word there that you use there is "blame." And I don`t think we should blame it, though we can use it as a way of explaining why they are the way they are. But again, they may not be responsible for how they got to this point. They`re responsible to deal honestly with the present now and make the changes necessary to be OK. They`re responsible for that.

Let`s go back to the phones. We`ve got Colette from Tennessee on the line.

Go ahead, Colette.


PINSKY: Colette.

COLETTE: I noticed that Casey cries in court when they`re talking about her, but she doesn`t cry when they`re talking about her daughter, Caylee. I was wondering what would be going on in a person`s mind based on that kind of behavior?

PINSKY: Well, I mean, if we`re speculating that she truly is a cold, calculating, profound narcissist to the point where the world is only there to service her, really what you call sociopathy, where somebody doesn`t appreciate that other people even have agency other than there to serve my needs, naturally enough, my feelings about my world is all that matters. Something that happened to somebody else doesn`t really have much meaning to me.

There are people like that out there. People are making the case that Casey is one of those people.

Hillary on Facebook asked, "Do you often see people diagnosed with some sort of mental illness fail to seek treatment? If so, why to you think this is?"

Well, this is very much a corollary to what I was just saying. This is part of what are called personality disorders.

If the world is the problem, not me, why should I change? And that`s part of certain mental illnesses, where people can`t see that they`re the source of the problem, not the world. They refuse to consider that it`s about them.

Family dysfunction, family dynamics. What role are they playing in the trial? What role might they have played in Caylee`s death?

As we go to break, watch this jailhouse moment between mother and daughter played out in court today.


CINDY ANTHONY: Who`s fault is it that you`re sitting in the jail? You`re blaming me that you`re sitting in the jail? Blame yourself for telling lies.

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not my fault.

CINDY ANTHONY: You mean it`s not your fault? What do you mean it`s not your fault, sweetheart? If you would have just told them the truth and not lied about everything, they wouldn`t --




PINSKY (voice-over): The biggest day yet in the Casey Anthony murder trial. Disturbing testimony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The smell in the car was like something I had never -- it was pretty strong.

PINSKY: Desperate calls.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My granddaughter has been taken.

PINSKY: And Cindy Anthony doubled over with agony. The twists and turns in this baffling family dynamic just don`t stop. Was mother/daughter jealousy responsible for Caylee`s death? And what about Casey`s brother, Lee? What was the true nature of his relationship with his sister?

JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Was the secret that Casey had shared with you that she had been abused by her father?


BAEZ: What was the secret that she had shared with you?

LAZZARO: Lee Anthony tried to sexually abuse her.


PINSKY (on-camera): Tonight, despite being accused of sexual abuse, Casey`s brother, Lee Anthony, stands by his sister asking a judge for special permission to sit in the courtroom even though he isn`t Caylee`s next of kin. The judge approves this, and Lee has been a constant supporter of Casey. Here he is speaking at Caylee`s memorial service.


LEE ANTHONY, CAYLEE ANTHONY`S UNCLE: Today is the day for this family to unite and display their solidarity and strength. This family is united, but this family is incomplete. I`m incomplete. I`m broken.


PINSKY: Incomplete, broken. You listen to those words and you have to wonder if he had any idea just how bad things were going to get. I`m back with host of "Issues" on HLN, Jane Velez-Mitchell. Also joining us is Jean Casarez from "In Session" on truTV and Mark Haushalter, he is a criminal defense attorney with me here in the studio. Let`s talk about Casey`s accusations that her brother molested her. Jean, it all started in a jailhouse letter, is that correct?

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION" ON TRUTV: That`s exactly right. She wrote to an inmate that Lee, her brother, would come into her bedroom with a flashlight, that he would feel her. In the morning, she`d wake up and her bra would be up at her neck and it would be unhooked.

She thought her father may have done the same thing, but in the opening statement, Jose Baez, it was completely reversed. It was that her father had sexually molested her overtly done so, and that Lee had tried to follow in those footsteps but had not.

PINSKY: Oh, interesting. And Jane, you have none of this, right? You don`t believe any of these sexual abuse allegations?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES" ON HLN: The woman is a pathological liar. And why should we believe her about this one particular thing when she`s clearly lied about everything else in her life? And have these people done anything that would indicate that they have devious tendencies up until this point? No. So, there`s no corroboration whatsoever, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: So, Jane, your issue is what`s the evidence. Mark, how are they going to fight that? What is the evidence -- and I think you would probably respond, so there`s two questions for you, in response to what Jane had said, would be, well, that`s how young women that have been sexually abused behave. They lie and they`re inconsistent. So, would that be your defense? And then, what would your evidence be to the abuse itself?

MARK HAUSHALTER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. When I hear your panel start talking, they bit into the media hype right now. I mean, I hear it. And all they`re doing is feeding the frenzy, throwing more wood on the fire, but what it really comes down to, what the prosecution wants to avoid is this whole molestation thing. That`s going to be a defense tool.

And then, something called the child sexual abuse accommodation syndrome. Recognized it`s a prosecution tool. It describes late disclosure of facts, entrapment, why they feel they can`t come forward, powerlessness, and other things.

PINSKY: So, let me just stop you and say that the behavior that Casey Anthony manifested, the prosecution in a trial like this would usually use that as an explanation for why Casey Anthony-type behavior evolved?

HAUSHALTER: Yes. If this was a --

PINSKY: This is a typical molestation case --

HAUSHALTER: If this was a molestation case, the prosecution would be grabbing that syndrome and using it.


HAUSHALTER: They need to do --

PINSKY: Is what?

HAUSHALTER: Is use that syndrome, put it right back at the prosecution and sit there and explain the inconsistency, explain why she`s not acting like a normal, rational person. Of course, she`s a victim of molestation, over years from her father and her brother. Those are the allegations. And of course, she`s not going to behave like a normal person, but you know what, that`s not the way the media is taking it. And what the defense needs to do is grab ahold of this, explain it, and turn the tables.

PINSKY: OK. Well, Jean and Jane, I`m going to ask you both, I mean, we all have this feeling that this might be a cold-blooded, premeditated evil person that we`ve got on our hands here. Our defense attorney saying, no, it all fits together. Is there any evidence that she was abuse or how do we make sense of all this? Jane, I think you made your case that it just this is an evil person. Jean, what do you think?

CASAREZ: Well, first of all, what I was saying before came from the discovery and came from Casey Anthony`s letters. As far as we know, it was never reported. So, it is -- it`s character. I mean, who do you believe? It`s a credibility issue. Do you believe Casey that this is the one time she is telling the truth? Or do you believe George? And probably, the rest of the family to deny it.

PINSKY: Jane, you said you believe the family, you feel like the family, the mother and the father, actually being abused in court. So, you think this is all the mastermind Casey behind all of this?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think that Casey does feel like a victim, but is she a victim of molestation or is she a victim of what she perceives of as her parents` over interference in her life? When she got pregnant, there has been a lot of reporting that she wanted to give her child up for adoption.

PINSKY: Hey, Jane, I`m going to stop you. I`m going to stop you. Hang on a second. I`m going to stop you. I`m not coming to Casey`s defense, believe me. Whenever I just float theories about Casey, people attack me on Twitter and Facebook. It`s crazy. Please, I don`t know who`s lying. I don`t know what the answer is here.

But jealousy between mom and -- you know, I deal with teenagers a lot, and I have a lot of jealous, pregnant young girls I deal with. They don`t want to kill their baby or their mom. They don`t. Jealousy is an awfully -- go ahead.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think the deep resentment comes from the fact that she wanted to give this child up for adoption and her mother said no. You`re going to have the child. And then, basically, tries to take the child from her was the first one to hold the child. So, I think that`s where the resentment comes from. That`s how she feels she`s victimized. And she`s just saying she`s been victimized in another way, and perhaps, making up that story. But all criminals believe that they`re victims on some level.

PINSKY: Jealousy between a mom and a daughter, Mark, I deal with, again, lots of teenagers. And some of them are pregnant, some of them have been forced to keep or force -- or convinced to keep their baby by the mom. There can be lots of conflicted feelings, but that doesn`t lead to murder.

HAUSHALTER: I agree. And when I hear your panel, I mean, like I said, I`m not buying what your panel`s saying, OK? They may be talk show hosts, they may be, you know, in the media, but I`m telling you right now, as it is --

PINSKY: But mark, a lot of people --

HAUSHALTER: There are defensible issues on this case.

PINSKY: Maybe defensible, but there are a lot of people that really do believe Casey is an evil person. And my point at the beginning of the show was that it`s like Madea. It really -- very threatening notion, a woman that is so aggressive, so violent, and so cold-blooded.

It`s not the usual situation that we hear about that I see defended all the time which is it`s a mother become psychotically depressed in some sort of out of her head state, kills a child, goes into sort of a feud for a day and then tries to kill herself a day later. That`s the usual -- that`s the cases that happens. This seems something very different.

HAUSHALTER: I think it`s completely consistent with an individual right now that`s been sexually molested repeatedly. There`s accusations that the father and the brother did it. And now, the father is a retired police officer. That can manipulate the police, that has the ability to sway an investigation based on his credibility. And now, you have potentially, Casey, who sits there and feels more victimized, sits there and says, what can I do and keeps changing her story.

There`s another way of looking at this, and, of course, case like this shocks the conscience of the American people, but we have to look at it from an impartial point of view.

PINSKY: So, don`t rush to judgment. It`s --

HAUSHALTER: And the defense hasn`t even put on their case yet.

PINSKY: All right. All right. We`ll talk more. We got more shocking testimony from Cindy Anthony. Watch this.


PINSKY (voice-over): Casey`s mother takes the stand. She accuses Casey of being ungrateful, selfish, and jealous. Inside details about their twisted relationship, from a man who watched the drama unfold from inside the Anthony camp.

CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE ANTHONY`S GRANDMOTHER: I have someone here that I need to be arrested in my home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are they there right now?

CINDY ANTHONY: A possible missing child. I have a three-year-old that`s been missing for a month.




LINDA DRANE-BURDICK, PROSECUTOR: When you refer to zany, is this a person that you ever met?


DRANE-BURDICK: Is this a person that you`ve ever seen a picture of?


DRANE-BURDICK: Would you be able to describe zany from your own independent observation, to anyone who asked?

CINDY ANTHONY: I never had an observation, so I couldn`t describe it, no.


PINSKY (on-camera): That was Cindy Anthony testifying this weekend talking about the mysterious zany the nanny who never existed, I guess. Cindy was getting so frustrated that she hadn`t seen Caylee she vented on MySpace. Weeks after Caylee was last seen, Cindy wrote this. "Jealousy has taken her away. Jealousy from the one person that should be thankful for all the love and support given to her." Ominous.

Back to discuss this are bounty hunter, Leonard Padilla and criminal defense attorney, Mark Haushalter. Joining us as well is Susan Constantine, a body language expert. Leonard, you were actually in the home with the Anthony`s as we talked earlier. What did you note to be the dynamic between Cindy and Casey?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER UNVOLVED IN CASE: Well, there was a situation where Cindy is a very controlling person. And Casey didn`t want to be controlled. It had to be about her. As you described earlier, I like that, better than the totally insane thing that I have as a layperson. And Casey was like that. One day, they were sitting there with my associate, Tracy, looking at some pictures of Caylee, and she said, oh, how cute and all that.

And Casey immediately takes one of her scrapbooks out and says, yes, but look at me, look how cute I am. And one of the other things that I wanted to bring up. Nobody`s touched on the fight that supposedly took place between Casey and Cindy the night of the 15th after the child came out of the pool and was put to bed. There was supposed to have been a horrific fight over money that Casey had stolen from her grandmother`s bank account. Nobody has brought that up yet during the court proceedings.

PINSKY: That`s interesting to speculate what that might have meant to them. Casey`s defense then grilled Cindy about her mother`s reaction to finding out that Caylee was missing. Take a look at this one.


CINDY ANTHONY: Caylee`s missing. Caylee`s missing. Casey said zany took her a month ago.


BAEZ: You don`t hear George Anthony saying anything other than what on that tape, do you?

CINDY ANTHONY: I was yelling to George as he was getting out of the car. He parked his car on the street, and I was still in the driveway kind of close to the house.

BAEZ: Other than the word what, do you hear him say anything on that 911 tape?

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t hear him say anything. I didn`t hear him say anything.


PINSKY: All right, Susan, what do you make of Cindy`s response here?

SUSAN CONSTANTINE, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: Well, Cindy`s, you know, response, you know, she always answers the question right on cue. I mean, there`s no pausing, there`s no hesitation. You know, she`s very thoughtful. Her information is very relevant. And then, also, too, one of the things is is that we don`t know how far George was. And George could have been, you know, quite a distance away. She was responding, you know, truthfully to this question.

And how do we know how far George was? George could have been 20 feet from there. We don`t know. So, Cindy Anthony, the entire time I`ve been watching her, she`s emotional, she`s panicked about her daughter -- the granddaughter missing, and she`s acting appropriately. So, what we`re expecting is that George is going to act the same way? Well, first of all, we weren`t there.

So, we don`t know what the expression was on George`s face at that time. But without even seeing, you know, Cindy`s expression, you can hear the panic in her voice. So, I can only imagine that she was panicked and riveted by what, you know, she`s learning.

PINSKY: Yes. Maybe she was the last to learn of this. Today on the stand, Cindy Anthony was asked about daughter, Casey`s, feelings of jealousy towards her. Take a look at this.


DRANE-BURDICK: Did you discuss with her your feelings that she was jealous of you in some fashion?

CINDY ANTHONY: It was brought up to me by her ex-fiance, Jesse Grund, when they were dating or engaged.


DRANE-BURDICK: Did you discuss that with Casey?


DRANE-BURDICK: That you had these feelings that you thought she was jealous of you?


DRANE-BURDICK: OK. Did she deny that?



PINSKY: Well, supposedly they were also very close. Leonard, do you think the jealousy issues got in the way of Cindy and Caylee`s relationship?

PADILLA: There was a certain amount of we`re going to raise this granddaughter versus her being in the way of Casey. I think what a lot of times people don`t understand is the child on that particular occasion, whether it was the 15th or the 16th was in the way of Casey being out partying. She had used Xanax before to put her to sleep. She had no money, no prescription.

She learned how to make chloroform. She just overdid it with the chloroform. And then, she`s got a dead child, not purposely, criminally, yes, but not intentionally, according to her. That`s why she feels she`s not guilty of anything. It just happened to be an accident.

PINSKY: So, fatal mismanagement, Mark, do you think that`s a viable possibility here?

HAUSHALTER: It`s going to be a deflection. I think that`s what the defense is going to do. And everyone right now is talking about how do you think the defense is doing? How do you think the defense is doing? Well, it`s the prosecution`s case in chief. So, the defense attorney has just made tactical decisions right now, utilize --

PINSKY: Where are they going to attack?

HAUSHALTER: I think they`re waiting for their case, and they`re going to bring in the molestation, they`re going to flip-flop it, and they`re going to show that Casey is the victim, and the reason the family are all staying together is because, right now, two people in the family are being accused of molestation, and of course, the mother is trying to maintain the family unity.

We`ve heard that from one of your panel members that she was controlling. It all plays into that, and it`s all consistent with the syndrome, child sexual abuse accommodation syndrome which would explain the weird behavior. I think that`s a direction that fact (ph) is going to go in.

PINSKY: Let me ask this. And Leonard, I may put you into this conversation, too, a little bit. If somebody is trying to make the case, that this Casey Anthony is a cold-blooded, severed sociopathic, narcissistic killer who doesn`t appreciate other people have feelings, why aren`t they -- or will the -- why isn`t the prosecution trying to build the case for that?

Talking about her hurting animals when she was a kid, talking about her lighting fires, talking about her doing destructive things that people that manifest this kind of cold-blooded killing do? Why aren`t they doing that?

HAUSHALTER: I tell you, I think the prosecution is probably playing it pretty tight. And what they`re trying to do is stick to the facts. They`re going to try trying their case and not do a shotgun approach, do a very surgical approach and keep it tight.

PINSKY: All right. Leonard, what do you think about what I`m saying? Well, I got a minute left here, but, usually, people that are really cold- blooded killers, they`ve got a pattern throughout their life of being a part of their soul missing. Why isn`t somebody talking about that? We`re talking about lying. We`re talking about partying. We`re talking about really poor mothering and jealousy, but how about something more profound? Why aren`t we hearing that story?

PADILLA: No. No. The prosecution is going after she chloroformed her and meant to kill her. And Casey just overdid the chloroform. She`d never dealt with it before, or if she had, she didn`t have that much experience. She was out of Xanax, didn`t know what to do, used chloroform. The prosecution is going to go for the she did it on purpose to get her out of her life. That`s not what Casey`s about.

PINSKY: So, you think it`s an accident, even though, Casey is a really, not a good person, as you`ve said, repeated times.

PADILLA: Correct.

PINSKY: It was still an accident?

PADILLA: Yes, yes. That particular incident, it was an accident. She just didn`t know how to handle chloroform.

PINSKY: OK. Wow. It`s still pretty devious to think of somebody chloroforming their baby so they can go out and party. That is not a good person.

HAUSHALTER: I agree with you on that. Total agreement.

PINSKY: Mark, Leonard, thank you. Susan, thank you as well. And Mark, thank you for joining us here. Very interesting conversation.

HAUSHALTER: Thank you.

PINSKY: Now, look, I study people. And again, this Madea thing gets at all of us. Now, we are all reacting to this intensely. Please, I`m just floating ideas here just trying to get my head around it just like you guys. And what we witnessed from Casey and her mom today was revealing. And when I come back, I`m going to talk more about what was not just said, but also what we saw in court today.


JOY BEHAR, HOST OF "JOY BEHAR SHOW": Don`t miss my show, Drew. Kathie Lee Gifford is here. We`ll talk about Oprah leaving and Meredith Vieira leaving. I get so emotional about goodbyes. Even ending this promo is hard for me, Drew. Help me.

PINSKY: Joy, we`re going to have to get you some grief counseling. Speaking of grief, welcome back. We`re talking about the Casey Anthony trial. We`ve certainly seen a lot of intense grief on the stand today. Criminal defense attorney, Mark Haushalter is still with me, as well as bounty hunter Leonard Padilla. We`re going to talk about Cindy Anthony`s emotional response on the stand today.

I`m saying, it`s, you know, the grief is what I saw on her. Grief stricken while she was listening, particularly, to the 911 calls that are so central to the case. We`ve been watching her. But now, let`s take a look at Casey`s response as she listened to herself talking to the 911 operator.


CINDY ANTHONY: They want to talk to you. Answer the questions.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Can you tell me what`s going on a little bit?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you tell me a little bit what`s going on?

CASEY ANTHONY: My daughter`s been missing for the last 31 days.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you know who has her?

CASEY ANTHONY: I know who has her. I`ve tried to contact her. I actually received a phone call today now from a number that is no longer in service. I did get to speak to my daughter for about a moment, about a minute.


PINSKY: Leonard, what do you make of Casey`s appearance there during that 911 call?

PADILLA: Well, that`s Casey. I mean, she added the little thing about, I just got a phone call from her. I was on there for about a minute. She said hi to me. The cops checked that out. There was no such phone call, but that`s Casey. She lies when she doesn`t have to, and she always adds on a little something in there just to throw it in there. Zenaida Gonzalez, that`s not her name -- Fernandez, Zenaida Gonzalez, no Fernandez.

She just throws things in there. And if you look at the expression on her face, when she`s sitting there listening to the people testify, especially her mother, it`s like, what am I doing here. I got other things that I could be doing. I`m not supposed to be here. What`s this all about?

PINSKY: I got to say when I deal with patients with certain kinds of personality disorder, their version of reality begs no alternative. You know what I mean? They`ll hear very specific things about reality and go, well, that`s your point of view. You know, they`ll just sort of move on. That view, the way she looked there reminds me of those kinds of patients.

Sometimes, they have histrionic (ph) personalities that are like that. And those kinds of patients do a lot of lying, and those patients can be trauma survivors but not necessarily. Do you make anything of her sitting there stone faced?

HAUSHALTER: You`re talking about a 1,000-yard stare. I know exactly what you`re going into. As a defense attorney, you try prepping your client that`s sitting next to you not to react in a certain way if they hear something good or hear something bad. And, of course, she was told this. Any competent defense attorney would tell her to sit still and sit there and, you know not grab at a pen or do anything like that. So, and the fact --

PINSKY: She is told to sit there stone faced?

HAUSHALTER: I believe so. I believe she --

PINSKY: I have a funny feeling from it, but I got to tell you, that`s not something admissible in court, but I get a not good feeling when I see that stone face.

HAUSHALTER: You don`t want her jumping around reacting and bouncing around also. So, you know, it`s the worst of two evils. Rather have her sit here and, you know, kind of seem calm, and you know, desensitized or do you want a manic client running around?

PINSKY: Well, Mark, Mr. Padilla, thank you so much for joining us. Again, I`m trying to understand this like the rest of us. We`re all having this very intense reaction that something that goes at the very core of the human experience. It`s going to be with us for a while. We`ll have a unique take on the Casey Anthony trial tomorrow on this show, and I`ll see you then.