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Jury Sees & Hears Casey`s Lies

Aired June 2, 2011 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, mind-blowing jailhouse videotapes between Casey and her parents and brother are played in open court and blow the lid off this already extraordinary trial.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: I`ll take your pain away from you. You can tell me anything.


G. ANTHONY: I miss you, sweetie. I wish could I have been a better dad and a better grandfather.

CASEY ANTHONY: You`ve been a great dad, and you`ve been the best grandfather. Caylee has been so lucky.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The videotapes have Jose Baez demanding a mistrial, again. Did it work?

And jurors see and hear Casey`s litany of lies from her own mouth on camera.

CASEY ANTHONY: Pictures of Caylee in Zanny`s apartment.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: Is Zanny`s apartment the ones with the drums?

CASEY ANTHONY: She had a drum set, yes.

CINDY ANTHONY: Is that Zanny`s apartment, because I know whose apartment that is.

CASEY ANTHONY: That exact apartment, that was Ricardo`s apartment.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The lies have detectives exasperated and warning Casey they will learn the truth eventually.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) HERE, who`s concerned and who`s now afraid of what`s going to happen because of something bad that happened before. Or we can look at you as cold, callous and a monster who doesn`t care.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m taking your calls.

ISSUES starts now.



CASEY ANTHONY: My only concern is that Caylee comes back to us, and she`s smiling and she`s happy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where did you drop her off?

CASEY ANTHONY: I dropped her off at that apartment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, you didn`t.

CASEY ANTHONY: That`s exactly where I dropped her off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, you didn`t. And who did you drop her off to?

CASEY ANTHONY: With Zenaida.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, you didn`t.

CASEY ANTHONY: Can someone let me -- come on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get out of the way, cameraman. Yes.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: Caylee has been gone for 31 days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever sexually molested your daughter, Casey Anthony?

G. ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Eye for an eye.

G. ANTHONY: You should know better. You should know better.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got to pull these lies out. OK? All these lies are out. We know everything you told us is a life. Tell us what happened to Caylee.

CINDY ANTHONY: What do you want me to tell Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: That Mommy loves her very much.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, explosive new developments in a trial that has America`s head spinning. Jailhouse videos of Casey Anthony played in open court today. Jurors watch as Casey`s frantic parents try to make sense of their daughter`s elaborate and conflicting stories about little Caylee`s disappearance. And Casey, in turn, accuses the cops of twisting her words.


G. ANTHONY: You ever thought about even just reaching out to the guys at the sheriff`s department, just talking to them?

CASEY ANTHONY: The few times that I have, Dad, you`ve seen what`s blown up in my face. They`ve misconstrued things that I said to them, resources that I gave them they haven`t used.

The babies never spoke to each other. I never even put Caylee on the phone.

CINDY ANTHONY: No. Listen, Caylee...

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not getting mad at you.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know you`re not.

CASEY ANTHONY: Listen, people like Tara, people like Jesse who are maybe trying to help, even Christina, God bless her, don`t know what the hell they`re talking about. They may have talked to me within the last few months or seen me within the last -- oh, I don`t know, year, and will say, "Oh, yes, this was during this such and such time" because they`re trying to help.


CASEY ANTHONY: Well, mom this is why stuff is getting misconstrued.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Today may have been the strongest day for prosecutors yet, as jurors heard a litany of lies from the defendant`s own mouth. We hear how cops followed her to Universal Studios, where Casey claimed she worked. Once there, she finally admitted she had not worked at Universal in two years. Then, exasperated cops take Casey into a room at Universal, and they grill her. Listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything that`s coming out of your mouth is a lie. Everything. And unless we start getting the truth, unless we start getting the truth, we have two possibilities with Caylee. Either you gave Caylee to someone and you don`t want anyone to find out, because you think you`re a bad mom; or something happened to Caylee, and Caylee is buried somewhere or in a trashcan somewhere and you had something to do with it. Either right now is not a very pretty picture to be painting.

Either way -- either way, right now, with everything that you`re telling us, you`re painting yourself as a very bad person. Your family is going to suffer for this. Your friends are going to suffer for this.

Remember what I told you about all these people coming out, they`re going to crucify you for this because of all the lies that you`ve been telling us. We need to stop that right now. Everything you told us is a lie. You`re looking at me in the eyes. You`re looking at -- everything you told us is a lie and what happened to Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.


CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something happened to Caylee. We are not going to discuss the last time you saw her. I`m guessing something had to happen to her some time ago and you haven`t seen her. So that part is true if you say you haven`t seen her, because she`s somewhere else right now.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s somewhere else.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s either in a Dumpster right now or she`s buried somewhere. She`s out there somewhere, and her rotting body is starting to decompose because of what you`re telling us. And here`s the problem, the longer this goes, the worse it`s going to be for everyone.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Will jurors empathize with the extreme frustration of these detectives? I`m taking your calls: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877- 586-7297.

Straight out to "In Session" correspondent Jean Casarez.

Jean, you`ve been in court today. What was it like to watch Casey sit there and hear lie after lie coming out of her own mouth on video and audiotape?

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": You know, she just sat there but had this expression on her face that was just so unpleasant. The jurors had their monitors; they were watching. One, I thought, was sleeping for a while...


CASAREZ: But he woke up, and he kept watching. Yes. In the front row. And I asked somebody else, "Am I wrong on this?" But he seemed to be dozing a little bit.

But this was when she took them to Universal. She said she worked there and Jane, the defense fought like heck for the jury not to see this tape.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, these explosive jailhouse tapes can help jurors judge for themself if they believe the defense claim that little Caylee drowned in the family pool accidentally and was discovered by George, who then covered it all up and pretended not to know when his daughter, Casey, was arrested. Listen to this


G. ANTHONY: Hey, gorgeous, how are you doing?

CASEY ANTHONY: I look like hell.

G. ANTHONY: We got to get that little girl back any way we can, and we`re doing everything we can. I want to take your pain away from you. So you can tell me anything.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know that, Dad.

G. ANTHONY: I miss you, sweetie.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know that. I miss you, too.

G. ANTHONY: I wish I could have been a better dad and a better grandpa. Would you like talking to an FBI guy or something?

CASEY ANTHONY: Anyone that you guys want to bring in, I`ll talk to.

G. ANTHONY: OK. That`s great. That`s great news. OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: What`s that T-shirt. I didn`t get a chance to ask him, you know, other things.

CINDY ANTHONY: Caylee`s picture`s on the back.

CASEY ANTHONY: Is it? Can Dad show me the shirt?

CINDY ANTHONY: Turn around so she can see. It`s the Never Lose Hope Foundation. Do you see it?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: HLN law enforcement analyst Mike Brooks, did you see that shirt? It says "Where`s Caylee?" Does George look like a man who already knows his granddaughter is dead and covering it up?

MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: No, absolutely not. And she`s -- I wish I could have been a better Dad, a better granddad.

She says, "No, you were a great dad. You`re a great grandfather. She`s lucky to have had you as a grandfather." No, not at all.

And again, we hear the lies and lies and lies. And Jane, it was interesting today, too, during that Universal grilling by those three detectives. And Sergeant Allen, he brought it up. He says, "Look, I`ve had to sit down with mothers that roll over on their babies accidentally. I`ve had to sit down with mothers who have drowned their children in swimming pools, with children who have -- did she flinch? She didn`t flinch when they mentioned about children drowning in swimming pools, Jane. She didn`t have a bit of...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That was her opportunity to tell the truth.

BROOKS: That was her out. Absolutely.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what? Dr. Dale Archer, she looks zoned out. She`s listening to her own lies in court, and she`s like, like this, like not really even focused on anything. Take a look at that. What do you make of it as a psychiatrist?

DR. DALE ARCHER, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, Jane, it`s very hard to fake your emotion, but it`s very easy to block your emotion. And poker players know this. That`s where the poker face came from. So Casey is blocking all emotion, and she is, indeed, playing a poker game. She`s playing a poker game where the stakes are her life or her death.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. We actually thought at moments this was a still shot, because she`s not even moving. I wonder -- you have to wonder if she was coached to kind of seem a little bit in a fugue state because she`s -- listen...

ARCHER: Jane, she looks like -- she looks exactly like a high-stakes poker player that you see on TV. They block their emotion out completely. I don`t think she had to be coached for this. I think that is her natural ability that is coming out, to be able to block all emotion out of her face, out of her body, and just sit there with nothing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen to this fascinating jailhouse tape played before the jurors today. Mom Cindy tries to corner Casey into the truth, asking her if one photo is of Zanny`s apartment, when Cindy apparently knows it`s somebody else`s apartment. Listen to this.


CINDY ANTHONY: I know the pictures of Caylee in Zanny`s apartment. Is Zanny`s apartment the ones with the drums?

CASEY ANTHONY: She had a drum set, yes.

CINDY ANTHONY: The one in the picture?

CASEY ANTHONY: I think there are even other pictures. I totally need to look through everything.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. Is that Zanny`s apartment? Because I know whose apartment it is. Is it Zanny`s apartment?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, that exact apartment, that was Ricardo`s apartment. It`s set up a lot like Zanny`s apartment.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dancing around the lies. Here`s my big issue. Suspicious timing. The defense claims little Caylee died accidentally, and Casey hid the truth because she was molested by her father, George, and brother, and had to keep that secret so this trained her to lie.

But what`s so suspicious about this, defense attorney Debra Opri, Casey snaps out of her lying trance on the eve of trial. If she`s really sick in the head, wouldn`t she still be sick in the head and lying forever? Why does she conveniently come into the truth right at the moment the trial starts?

DEBRA OPRI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Because she didn`t. You`re absolutely correct. It doesn`t go that way. I`m very impressed with the prosecution. They are giving you a trickle down of all these witnesses. I`m very impressed with Jeff Hopkins, who basically said, "I met her. I never referred her to a nanny. I don`t know who she`s talking about."

But with those videotapes that we`re watching this is the liar`s lament. You are watching Casey Anthony testify without ever taking the stand. And what really is...


OPRI: ... impressing me...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what? But she`s going to -- I think a lot of people think she`s going to have to take the stand now, Aphrodite Jones, to...

OPRI: She won`t.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... to explain herself.

APHRODITE JONES, HOST, "TRUE LIES": I think you`re right, Jane. I think that it would be perhaps the only way that she`s going to be able to explain this defense theory, the opening statement.

But one of the things I want to mention is I watched Casey very carefully when they were playing the interview from jail and also the one with the police. And you know, she did actually use body language and was moving her arms, wrapping them around, like rolling them around like this under the table and having her hands wrapped into the sweater as though she was consoling herself or...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Well, who knows what that`s all about?

JONES: Nervous energy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nervous energy? Yes, I`d be nervous if I were her.

All right. You`ve got a Casey question, call me right now: 1-877-JVM- SAYS.

Coming up, a criminal defense attorney to the stars joins me to talk about this very extraordinary case. He`s represented Chris Brown, Michael Jackson and convicted murderer Scott Peterson. You`re going to find out what this star attorney thinks about Casey`s murder trial.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You fall into one of two categories. No matter how you think people are going to look at you, they`re going to look at you a lot worse if they show -- if you continue showing that you`re callous or not caring and that you just show complete dispassion, disregard for human life.

Or they are going to look at you as someone, you know what? I can understand how a young mother -- well, she`s a young mother, first child. Something horrible happened. She`s thinking, "Oh, my God. My life isn`t going good right now. I already know my life is struggling. People don`t see me in that great of a light. I know I got problems at home. I`ve got problems with friends. I`ve got problems at work or lack of work. All of a sudden, something bad happens to my child. People are going to think, oh, I`m just the devil."




CINDY ANTHONY: You never really got a full description of Zanny. I know she`s got brown, curly hair.

CASEY ANTHONY: About shoulder length. She wears it straight.


CASEY ANTHONY: It`s curly, but she also wears it straight. This is what I`m telling you. It`s called a straightener, remember?

CINDY ANTHONY: How tall is she?

CASEY ANTHONY: About 5`7"-ish. She`s like maybe an inch or two shorter than Dad, so 5-6, 5-7. Very thin. Brown eyes. No tattoos that I`ve ever seen that I know of. I`ve seen her in a bathing suit, so unless it`s something beyond that.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The imaginary Zanny.

What is so extraordinary about these jailhouse tapes is that everything coming out of Casey`s mouth is a complete and utter lie. It`s similar, some say, to another infamous case, Scott Peterson, on Death Row. He was convicted of killing his wife and unborn child.

And tonight, our very special guest is famed defense attorney Mark Geragos, who represented Scott Peterson. Mark, first of all, great to have you here. Some are saying, hey, this is the biggest day for the prosecution yet. Is there anything in this caught-on-tape litany of lies that the defense can salvage to help Casey Anthony`s case?

MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I -- I think that the defense, they have to deal with it. Obviously, the way I assume they`re going to deal with it is to talk about the fact that, look, she can lie, she can lie. That may fit in from a defense standpoint with the fact that she was -- you know, she covering up, and she was covering up for her parents or that she knew that she was on tape and -- the biggest problem you`re going to have is what do you do with her? Do you put her on or do you not put her on?

That`s what every defense lawyer loses sleep over because ultimately, at the end of the day, there may be an explanation. But how do you get that explanation out? Who`s going to be the person who`s going to sit and talk to that jury and explain what the heck was going on? That`s -- that`s where you earn your money.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: If you were her attorney, would you put her on the stand, given everything?

GERAGOS: Well, at this point, you know, there`s obviously the two schools of thought, if you will. One is, look, how could you put her on the stand? There`s so many demonstrable lies and so many things that are at odds with what the evidence is going to be that that -- and what your position is that she`s going to be impeached from now till new year`s.

The opposite argument of that, I suppose, is, look, you put her on and she embraces it and says, "Yes, I was lying. Yes, I was lying, but I didn`t kill her. She accidentally drowned," or whatever the defense is going to be.

How much more can the prosecutor beat up on her at that point? And ultimately, if -- if she convinces that jury or at least one of those jurors, because that`s the standard, that the -- that there was no homicide -- and, remember are that`s one of the things that the prosecution has to prove. And so far, people can talk about how this is the biggest day. But you can be the biggest single liar on the planet, but if they haven`t proven there`s a homicide, you can`t -- you can`t convict somebody of murder.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but Mark, she`s not just hiding the truth and saying, "I don`t know" and rocking back and forth. She is proactively inventing -- sending people on false leads, creating characters that don`t exist. That would speak to me of a real cover-up, not just being in a fugue state because you`ve been molested.

GERAGOS: Well, I -- look, I think that there`s an argument to be made that, yes, there`s a cover-up, but who is she covering up for? If there`s this -- who knows what the truth is. But if there was some kind of a molestation, I`ve defended and I`ve prosecuted enough cases involving people who have been molested to know that you`re going to hear a million different reactions to it. There`s no one set playbook for how somebody reacts. If she`s covering up for her father...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mark, your reaction to key video in a moment.



CINDY ANTHONY: Well, I would think if anybody around her knew her, they he would have come forward by now.

CASEY ANTHONY: That`s what I`m thinking. That`s even what I told Jose. If it was anyone that especially has known me that knows Caylee, that at least knows of us...

CINDY ANTHONY: Did anybody ask you to describe her and they did a composite drawing of her?


CINDY ANTHONY: Well, they told us that you couldn`t pull her out of a lineup.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, she`s dropping "F"-bombs and all sorts of other profanity.

So tonight, we`re talking to attorney to the stars, Mark Geragos. How is this woman playing before the jury? Beyond her lies, she is coming off as callous and vulgar and dropping all sorts of profanity in these jailhouse tapes. Could that hurt her even more than her outright lying, Mark?

GERAGOS: Well, people do look -- there`s no escaping it, jurors look at a defendant`s demeanor. They look for the reaction. They want to see - - there hasn`t ever been a murder case that I`ve tried where I don`t talk to jurors afterwards. And one of the things that they focus on is, when autopsy photos, for instance, get shown on the screen, they want to see how the client reacts.

So yes, that is something, no matter what a judge tells them or instructs them about demeanor in a courtroom, the jurors still look at it.

That having been said, I go back to -- and I don`t want to be a broken record, but I go back to the main point. The prosecution has to prove that there was a homicide. And at a certain point, if they can`t do that...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they haven`t even gotten -- they haven`t even gotten to the forensics. They have not gotten to the forensics yet. This is just like the appetizer before the main course.

GERAGOS: Well, it`s actually in reverse from the way the modern prosecutorial presentation. Usually, prosecutors in this day and age, they go through the forensics first, and then they end with what I call the character assassination block.

This time, they`re front-loading the character assassination block and then, apparently, leading to the forensics. My guess is that they feel like the forensics are so weak that they want to demonize, show that she`s, you know this awful, lying person first so that then, you`ll look at the forensics through the prism of kind of that antipathy towards her. There`s no other explanation I can think of for doing it or presenting it in this order.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me go back to July 16. Now, cops give Casey every single opportunity to come clean. They even talk about, "Hey, we`ve covered children drowning in swimming pools." Listen to this exchange, as cops grill her.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve had to sit down with mothers whose kids have drowned in swimming pools. I`ve had to sit down with mothers who had boyfriends who beat their kids to death, you know, who felt horrible about what happened and then had to go to -- try to explain to their families. OK?

And then I`ve also had to deal with people who have done horrible unspeakable things to children and then lied about it and lied about it and lied about it.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mark, they even talk about a child drowning possibility. Ten seconds, your reaction to them offering her that opportunity to come clean?

GERAGOS: I know a lot of psychiatrists who can`t get somebody to come clean after years of therapy, so I`m not so sure that a cop is going to get somebody to come clean in ten seconds.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, listen, Mark, I want to thank you for coming on our show. This is going to be a long trial. We hope you come back real soon, because you are the attorney to the stars, and we appreciate your input.

We are all over this case, giving you the very latest on everything Casey Anthony. On the other side, we`re going to play more of the astounding video and audiotapes played in open court today. You`ve got to hear them.



CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF MURDERING DAUGHTER: Well, I would think that if anybody around her knew her, they would have come forward by now.


CASEY ANTHONY: That`s even what I told Jose. If it was anyone, that specially has known me that knows Caylee, that at least knows of us --

CINDY ANTHONY: Did anybody ask you to describe her and they did a composite drawing of her?


CINDY ANTHONY: Well, they told us that you couldn`t pull her out of a line up.



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: Tonight, explosive new developments in a trial that has America`s heads spinning, Casey Anthony, telling a litany of lies, making cops almost want to tear their hair out in exasperation and they warned her she better come clean.

Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything that`s coming out of your mouth is a lie -- everything. And unless we start getting the truth -- unless we start getting the truth, where we`re going now there`s two possibilities with Caylee. Either you gave Caylee to someone and you don`t want anyone to find out because you think you are a bad mom or something happened to Caylee and Caylee is buried or in a trash can somewhere and you had something to do with it. Either way right now it is not a very pretty picture.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mike Brooks, these cops try everything. They try the good cop/bad cop routine. They try empathy. They try scaring her. They warn her. They confront her with her lies. Nothing works. She is -- as I think you said -- the tough nut to crack.

MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, she is, Jane. She really is. And I have talked to other detectives who`ve been watching the case all along from the very beginning and they go, "I wouldn`t want to have to interview her because you get absolutely nowhere."

But you know, Appie Wells, one of the detectives, he tried the good cop today, talking about pressure that maybe her mother might have exerted on her like his mother used to do on him that she could never be the perfect mom. She almost got to her, Jane, almost -- then she went right back to the lies, only lasted for a moment.

But when she talked to her mom and dad in those jailhouse tapes, she talked about the three detectives, Sergeant Allen and Appie Wells who drove her to Universal and she liked Appie Wells because he listened to her. So maybe he did get to her a little bit but it didn`t last for long.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I want everybody to really study Casey`s zoned out expression as she basically listens to the audio recording of her interview with cops on July 16, 2008, the very day after that infamous 911 call where her mom says it smells like a dead body in the damn car.

Now look at this. I`m starting to wonder, is it possible that she was coached to remain stone-faced to kind of imply that she is in some kind of fugue state. Here`s the thing. If they are playing the sort of cuckoo for cocoa puffs card, A, I have to wonder why they didn`t go for the insanity defense or diminished capacity. That`s something we have to think about as well.

Michael Christian, you`re out there, what about those possibilities? I would think that this whole accidental death thing, that ship sailed. Why do they -- why does she suddenly snap out of her fugue on the eve of trial? Why didn`t she snap out of her fugue earlier when she had the opportunity to avoid going to a death penalty trial?

MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, SENIOR FIELD PRODUCER, "IN SESSION": You know, when I was listening to testimony earlier this morning, Jane, they are talking about how she gets to Universal and she points out a building where she says she works. And she goes into the building and she gets halfway down the hall and says, "Ok, I don`t really work here."

And I`m thinking to myself, at this point in her life with what she`s got behind her and the lie she told she would have been better off to just walk around and say, "My office used to be here. Where`s my office? Somebody took my office." Insanity seems to be the way to go at that point. That would have been her best bet, I think.

Instead she stuck with this litany and litany and litany of lies and they are not doing her any good.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And when you add the forensics on top of that which the prosecution undoubtedly will; wow, that could be game, set, match. But we don`t know, we never predicted these cases.

Leah, Florida -- thank you for your patience. Your question or thought, ma`am?

LEAH, FLORIDA (via telephone): Hi, Jane.


LEAH: You know, the accidental drowning it is yet again another Casey Anthony lie. This child did not drown. The duct tape is key, Jane. If your child accidentally drowned in a backyard in a pool, would you take your dead child out of the pool, go get some duct tape and duct tape her nose and her mouth?

If your child accidentally died from heat stroke in the back seat of a hot car in the summertime in Florida would you pull her out go get some doesn`t tape, put it across her nose and her mouth?

It is very odd. It doesn`t add up. I think they need to test the duct tape for chlorine, any kind of pool chemicals. I think that that child died from the duct tape. If you put duct tape over a child`s nose and mouth, that will kill you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Leah, sounds like you could coach the prosecutors for their closing arguments. Dr. Dale Archer, she makes an excellent point.

DR. DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: Yes, I think she makes a great point, but what you have to understand with Casey is you can`t comprehend her --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: No I want to talk about the duct tape. You`re a doctor. Why would anybody put duct tape over a child that drowned? Because actually I heard Dr. Drew say the other night that water comes up when you`ve drowned, there`s water in your body, so if you want to keep the water from spilling everywhere, you might duct tape. He said it.

ARCHER: I know, Jane, but -- ok. So the duct tape had to go on either before or after she drowned. If it was before she drowned, then she was drowned on purpose. If it was after she drowned, it`s just beyond comprehension to think that that would be in her repertoire to think "I`m going to put duct tape on top of her mouth in order to keep water from dripping out."

So, I don`t buy that at all. And I don`t buy the accidental drowning story either. I think that`s another lie.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Speaking of lies, we have heard the big lie that Casey told, the one where she says she dropped Caylee off with Zanny the nanny on June 9th and that that was the very last time she saw her daughter and she was insistent. Oh, really? Today the jury heard this.


CASEY ANTHONY: I have not seen my daughter. The last time I saw her was on the 9th of June.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what happened to Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.


CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Now, here`s the problem. See the videotape you`re looking at? That is little Caylee, the victim, on June 15th, Father`s Day, with her great-great-grandfather.

So, Debra Opri, criminal defense attorney, she has gotten her dates mixed up and she is swearing to something that they have video proof of is not true.

DEBRA OPRI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I have done criminal defense work and I`m telling you to me this was the key evidence today that she says on this date, I dropped little Caylee off at this place, a nanny, and a witness gets up and says, no, I never introduced her to this nanny, which means we have a phantom nanny, a litany of lies as you`ve been saying.

And this girl -- I don`t think unless she takes the stand she`s going to be able to get out of this. And Jane, unlike Mark Geragos who didn`t tell you yes or no, I`m telling if I were defending her, you are not taking the stand because no way you are going to be able to repair yourself. No way.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lynn, Rhode Island, your question, or thought, Lynn?

LYNN, RHODE ISLAND (via telephone): thanks for taking my call, Jane. My question was, I heard on the interview with Lee and Casey today that she asked -- he asked her where they might begin to start looking and she told her brother, look close to home, places where we are familiar with. I just thought that might be a little interesting.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes, absolutely.

OPRI: It is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: In fact, we have that clip. Lee Anthony, a frequent visitor, of course, when Casey was first thrown in jail. Here he is gently trying to cajole the truth from Casey in this jailhouse tape. Check this out.


LEE ANTHONY, BROTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: One thing I want you to keep in consideration, based on the context, you know, based on what I know right now, what has been able to be conveyed to me, you have to know that everything has changed from, you know, a month ago.


L. ANTHONY: And that, you know, even if we`ve been used to or, you know, acting a certain way or following a certain thing that those, you know, in a sense, that those rules may have changed.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Aphrodite Jones, there`s Lee, I think gently trying to say, hey, your story, it may not add up anymore, honey. What`s weird is that nobody in the Anthony family, the most co-dependent, enabling group of people I have ever met, seems to be able to have the guts to confront her and say, hey, honey, you`re my flesh and blood, but you`re lying.

APHRODITE JONES, HOST, "TRUE CRIMES": You`re right, Jane they don`t have the guts to confront her. But I think part of it might be that they have lived with a liar for a long period of time.

Clearly, she didn`t start being psychopathic liar and pathological just at the moment that Caylee disappeared. This has been a life-long habit of hers and I think we are going to find that out. Part of what the problem -- she says to her brother, Lee, I`m not going to talk to police because they misconstrue everything I say and they twist my words.

Jane, the truth is she twisted her own words. She twisted and turned everything around on Lee, on her parents and we saw it again and again in the courtroom today. And I got to tell you the jury, they were not liking Miss Anthony today.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, and I heard earlier, one of the jurors fell asleep but then I heard that another juror was rolling her eyes or his eyes at Casey.

Michael Christian, ten seconds, do you think the jury is reacting with a lot of negativity to these incredible videos?

CHRISTIAN: I don`t think -- I don`t think it`s overly negative, but clearly, anybody in that courtroom isn`t liking what they`re hearing. These are lies. Nobody wants to hear lies, including the jury.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Boy, I had a lot of empathy for the detectives and their frustration in trying to get the truth out of this young woman who is the hardest nut to crack that I`ve ever seen.

HLN`s extensive coverage of the Casey Anthony trial continues at the top of the hour. You got to see Nancy Grace and her analysis live from Orlando, 8 p.m. Eastern.

And we are continuing with playing clips of tape from court today that really, I think, is one of the most extraordinary displays of pathological lying that the nation has ever been exposed to because, let`s face it, everybody`s watching this.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you a person who is scared about the consequences that happened or are you scared about something would happened or are you really this cold, callous person who doesn`t care about what happened? Is it one of these two options?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In an attempt to try to help find your daughter, you`ve given bad addresses, ok? You drove me all the way out here. We walked from the gate back here all the way to your office, right?

Ok? To an officer that you don`t (INAUDIBLE) we got all the way into the building in the hallway here before you finally said I really don`t have an office here. We thought we were walking to your office. So is anybody -- does any of this make sense to you?

By hiding this, by burying this ok, you are not going to get yourself to a better place, ok? What you`re going to do is you`re going cause everybody else around you to suffer, ok? And at some point this is going to come out. It always does.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Detectives trying to corner Casey Anthony and get her to spill the truth after this pattern of lies emerges. This is on July 16th, 2008, the very day after Cindy has called 911 saying it smells like a dead body in the damn car.

Now, Michael Christian, the defense in their cross made a big deal out of the fact that they claim at this point the Miranda rights had not been read to Casey. Why is that significant now, because I would think that would only be significant before trial when you`re trying to argue whether or not these tapes could be put in evidence?

CHRISTIAN: I think they are just trying to show for the jurors -- they`re trying to help jurors maybe imagine that she has been coerced into this, that she didn`t really want to talk to them and they should have mirandized her. She is just this poor little girl against these seasoned police officers.

And that might work under different circumstances, Jane, but we heard clearly she agrees to talk to them. She is not under arrest. She has talked to them at home and she has talked to them at universal. She is very cooperative. But to Casey Anthony, cooperation means more lies.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I have to say, when teenagers lie -- and she is basically a glorified teenager, she is now 25, she was 22 at the time -- they are often proud of their ability out to pull one over on the adults. I know because I was kind of one of those teenagers -- not like this, don`t get me wrong. But I think she might have been stuck in her pride over her ability to lie. I really do.

The arrogance -- and also knowing that she had gotten away with so many ridiculous lies with her parents gave her a false sense of security that any adult, anybody over 20, is going to believe anything I say because they are clueless and Debra, what do you think of my theory?

OPRI: Well, Jane, I agree with your theory. I have been wanting to tell you on this entire show, those police, jailhouse videotapes, let it be a lesson to everybody out there who has someone in jail and you`re coming to visit them, don`t talk. Don`t do double talk. Don`t be honest. Don`t gut yourself out. Don`t say anything because you`re being taped and you`re being listened to. As far as the arrogance of Casey Anthony, let`s be very clear. This is a girl who does it as she goes along. She thinks on her feet as she goes along. I think this entire crime and Mark Geragos may be right. It may be difficult to prove murder, but everything is leading up to a woman who does not plan anything out. She goes as she goes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: A sociopath.

OPRI: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Megan, Connecticut, your question or thought, Megan?

MEGAN, CONNECTICUT (via telephone): Good evening.


MEGAN: And thanks for having me on your show. I have a quick question actually --


MEGAN: -- that I was hoping you or your guests could address.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead, what`s the question?

MEGAN: In regard to the judge`s order that there should be no emotion in the courtroom, Caylee (SIC) is seemingly crying on cue. She is nodding yes, no, gesturing. She is testifying, in effect, without having to take the stand. And I think that`s unfair.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Excellent question. Aphrodite Jones, have you seen a lot of that and why doesn`t the judge put a stop to that, because it`s the defendant?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, partial I believe he can`t control her from the bench and stop the proceedings and say, oh, by the way, defendant, Casey Anthony, stop your tears. The tears are not crocodile tears, they`re not audible tears, she is welling up, she is turning red in the face. It`s real. I mean I`m sitting there watching the girl and it`s not constant, certainly.

It`s at moments when it seems to me, Jane that she is just feeling sorry for herself, that she`s feeling sorry also that she has lost her daughter. That is genuine.

And there`s something that she said to Lee in one of these bombshell tapes that we heard today and saw the tapes from jail, she said I know in my heart she is not far and she said, I can feel it -- about Caylee.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Not far. Yes. Yes, she was found less than a mile from the Anthony home.

More in a moment.



CASEY ANTHONY: It`s the truth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s not the truth.

CASEY ANTHONY: This is the honest to God`s truth. The truthful thing is I have not seen my daughter. That is the God`s honest truth.

I was completely truthful about those places we`ve been to. Honestly, I want to come up and try to talk to security. Honestly that`s all I care about at this point.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was a lie?

CASEY ANTHONY: That was a lie.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All of her lies, which she insists vociferously, are the truth.

HLN law enforcement analyst Mike Brooks, what I find is going to be difficult for the defense is explaining why she suddenly had an epiphany and decided on the eve of trial now I can tell the truth that it was an accidental drowning. How are they going to explain that? Why did she snap out of her fugue on the eve of the trial.

BROOKS: It`s going to be very difficult for them to prove it. You know I think they`re going to have to put her on the stand. If they do, to prove all this, they`re going to have to. How else are they going prove George Anthony and everything else she`s saying?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Debra, your turn. Debra.

OPRI: I`m sorry, Mike, but I disagree with you, because if they put her up, you know, it`s really, really bad. Cut to the chase. They`re going to struggle just to keep her off of the death penalty. I mean I don`t think they can save her from the death penalty at this the point.

Jane, you`re right. With the forensics coming out, I disagree with Mark. I think with this strategy of putting her credibility at issue and Mike, with that police investigation and those tapes, that was a great opening.

With the forensics it may not be as strong, but I think it`s going to be enough to tie her in. And then this last minute it was the pool or my daddy`s a child molester, it is think as you go along. And her defense attorney unfortunately may have adopted her habits.

BROOKS: It sure looks that way, Debra.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me get to this real quick. Cindy Anthony frantically tried to see her granddaughter Caylee. Casey tells Cindy she and Caylee are of with this wealthy suitor in Universal Studios, colleague Jeff Hopkins who has a son Zach around the same age as Caylee and by the way, who introduced Casey to Zanny the nanny.

Well, today the real Jeff Hopkins testified. This is wild.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When did you work at Universal Studios?

JEFF HOPKINS, WITNESS: Approximately 2002.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How long did you work there for?

HOPKINS: One year.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever work there at the same time that Casey Anthony worked there?

HOPKINS: I don`t think so.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t recall ever seeing her there?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever introduce Casey Anthony to a woman by the name of Zenaida Gonzalez?

HOPKINS: I did not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever use Zenaida Gonzalez as a nanny?

HOPKINS: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have any children?

HOPKINS: No, sir.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Dale Archer, Casey knows that her mom would be likely to be a little more lenient. She`s off with a wealthy suitor, so suddenly this guy she barely knows becomes the wealthy suitor. What are the defense psychiatrists going to do to try to massage that behavior into something that the jury can accept?

ARCHER: I would hate to be a defense psychiatrist on this case -- just let me say that. Because clearly you have a pattern of pathological lying that is so severe that I`m going to jump in and say from a psychological perspective, she has to testify to be able to give some reasons why she said all this. Otherwise, she`s going to be a liar no matter what and I think it`s hopeless for her.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: By the way, Jose Baez asked for a mistrial again today, and the judge said again, no mistrial.

Thank you, fabulous panel. My final thoughts on the other side.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The Casey Anthony murder trial has gone beyond just judging the guilt or innocence of one individual. It`s become a national case study about the danger of lying.

Has anyone in the history of America been caught on tape spewing so many lies? The entire nation is watching as Casey is caught in a lie after lie after lie. We feel the frustration as police and her family are trying to squeeze the truth out of this very tough nut.

Come on, we all lie. It may seem innocuous enough, "I`m running late because" and we make up a lie. "I can`t make the party because" and we make up a lie. But this is a teachable moment. When you start to lie, the lies can snowball. Lies build up, and sometimes they explode in your face and we are sitting front row watching that happen to Casey Anthony.

Honesty is always in almost every case the very best option.

Nancy Grace up next.