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Week Three of Casey Anthony Murder Trial
Aired June 6, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
That now infamous stench in Casey`s car. Last week, I broke down the testimony. This week, the hard evidence. I`m asking, can science confirm that it was a dead body?
Plus, the mind of a jury. Emotional witnesses last week, a mountain of scientific evidence this week. How can the jury possibly process all this? I`ve got some theories about that and the impact it`s having on them.
So, let`s get started.
All right. The Casey Anthony murder trial is now going into its third week and the crime scene evidence is about to take center stage.
All right, guys. We`re about to go CSI here. Take a look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Day 11 of Casey Anthony`s murder trial --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of the key scientists in the Casey Anthony trial, he studied air samples taken from her trunk.
ARPAD VASS, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: I would recognize this as human decomposition odor. The odor was extremely overwhelming strong. I essentially jumped back.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: It smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you recall about the smell of the car?
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: That it was very potent, very strong.
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: Dr. Vass was also shocked at the level of chloroform that was in the carpet samples.
VASS: The chloroform was shockingly high, unusually high.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Experts rarely use that word unless it really fits.
PINSKY: All right. Just like you guys at home, we`re all glued to the TV sets, we`re watching the gavel-to-gavel coverage of the trial.
But again, I want to keep reiterating this -- I`m just trying make sense of this case. I`m certainly not prepared to completely pass judgment. I want people to understand now, there`s no excuse for many of the things we`ve seen here.
We`ve seen horrible, egregious parenting. Even if this was an accident, it`s an accident because of egregious parenting, lying, lying, lying. OK?
I know those few things are for sure the case, but I`m just trying to understand the behavior, I`m trying to make sense of this. I`m trying to understand if this is a cold premeditated killer, as many of you think, or is this a sick person? In either case, whatever we`re seeing here, it isn`t looking very good for Casey.
Now, I today -- if you want to just sort of -- if I can share with you how much this is starting to affect me, I`ve been reporting on this thing every day, and I told you last week how I`d read the transcript of these lies, and I`d literally start reading them, and I was walking down some stairs, and I couldn`t get to the bottom of the stairway until I read all 40 pages. I was so astonished by the magnitude and the sort of convincing lies that I was reading about. It was just sort of entertaining to watch. I couldn`t look away.
Today, I`d heard that Casey went on to some missing persons Web sites. This is, again -- you`re going to hear later in the show, that`s part of the evidence that the jury hasn`t seen yet. So I thought, well, I wonder what she was looking at.
I go on these missing person Web sites, and I really became physically ill. I actually became sick at my stomach thinking the possibility here -- maybe that`s why I keep looking to understand this as a physician and as a human being. When you think about the possibility of how cold-blooded this might be, I literally started getting physically ill.
So if you want to know why I resist going all the way there, it`s almost too much for me to take on. So, please bear with me while I try to get my head around this.
I also want to remind everyone why we are here at this show. and why "DR. DREW" continues to -- and HLN, for this matter -- continues to follow this case closely. You see there the little girl who is no longer with us and whose life was cut short, baby Caylee, and for whom we are trying to serve justice and understand this.
It is, again, both sad and sickening that this young girl -- whatever she went through, it`s not good. It`s not OK.
Tonight, experts take the stand in the Casey Anthony murder trial, and we`re going to go to that now. The jurors heard testimony about what investigators found inside Casey Anthony`s trunk, the trunk that so many said -- repeatedly have said smelled like a dead body.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: That particular smell, whenever you smell it, it`s something you never forget.
SIMON BIRCH, EMPLOYEE, JOHNSON`S WRECKER YARD: The odor that came out of the trunk was even more stronger than the odor that came out of the vehicle. When we opened it, there were a few flies that flew out.
C. ANTHONY: The smell in the car was like something I had never -- it was pretty strong. I mean, I used that expression, you know, "What died?"
G. ANTHONY: I didn`t want to believe what I was smelling to a point. I was trying not to think too much ahead.
PINSKY: One strand of hair found in the trunk had a death band at the tip which experts say shows it likely came from a decomposing body. The hair was light brown, about the same length as Caylee`s, and matched pieces taken from her brush. But there was some testing that could only conclude that it came from a female member of the Anthony family -- that is, Caylee, Casey or Cindy.
Now, investigators tested the air in the trunk. It detected human composition and also found high amounts of chloroform. Now, another sickening speculation is, was Caylee given the knockout drug chloroform?
As one expert testified, he was actually shocked by how high the levels were he found in the trunk. So listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFF ASHTON, PROSECUTOR: Did the amount of chloroform that you found in the chromatogram surprise you?
VASS: We were shocked.
VASS: We have never seen chloroform in that level in environmental samples before. At least I never have in 20 years of shooting these types of samples. The concentration in that sample was in the parts per million range.
ASHTON: And I believe you said that what you have seen in decomposition was parts per trillion?
VASS: Trillion, correct.
ASHTON: So it`s million, billion, trillion --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me now, former criminal investigator John Lucich; and host of "In Session" on truTV, Ryan Smith, who is outside the courthouse, where we speak to him often; and forensic pathologist Dr. Daniel Spitz. He`s joining me by phone. And here in the studio, I have got criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh.
Now, Ryan, first to you, how will the defense handle this? Will they just say, yes, the body was in the trunk after she died accidentally?
SMITH: No, absolutely -- what they`re saying now is they`re just simply poking holes in Dr. Vass`s findings. The first thing they questioned was whether he was even qualified to render these findings because he doesn`t specialize in some of the testing methods that he did.
The other thing is he used other people`s research to form his opinion, so they objected to that. But the key thing for them is to just poke holes in his theories.
See, they figure if they can do that, they can get the jury to say, well, you know what? Maybe we shouldn`t believe Dr. Vass, because even though he had this finding, maybe in a couple ways he made some assumptions that he shouldn`t have, and that`s the key. Because later, the defense is going to bring up their experts and say things like, well, the trash in that trunk was what gave off those high readings similar to decomposition, and maybe some of that smell that he smelled.
So that`s what they`re going to continue to do. And they hit him hard today on that aspect.
PINSKY: Thanks, Ryan.
Chloroform wasn`t just found in the car. The jury hasn`t heard about this yet. Investigators found a Gatorade bottle near Caylee`s body with a syringe inside. And in the syringe was chloroform, testosterone, ethanol and water. Now, Caylee`s doll found in the car also had traces of chloroform.
Dr. Spitz, who is a medical examiner, do you make anything of all this?
DR. DANIEL SPITZ, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, certainly, you can use the levels of chloroform to begin to come to an idea as to what was going on there, and whether it purely represents decomposition, because certainly we all know that you can have high levels of chloroform during the process of decomposition. But can you take the next step and say that the chloroform existed because it was given to Caylee Anthony as a method to intoxicate her and potentially cause her death?
I don`t know if you can do that. What you certainly can do is just, at this point, use all the evidence in conjunction with the levels of chloroform and say that there was very much a decomposing human body in the trunk of the car. But whether you can take the next step and say that it`s related to an actual injection or an inhalation of the drug during life is a different story.
PINSKY: One quick follow-up question for you. My understanding is that there`s plant breakdown products that can interact with chlorine in a swimming pool to create chloroform. Do you think they`re going to try to use that as an explanation for what they found, or were the levels just too ridiculous to even make that case?
SPITZ: Well, certainly there`s going to be an attempt to explain the chloroform. And one way that it might be done is to theorize that the chlorine caused some type of reaction.
But the bottom line is that they`re different drugs. The testing identifies the drugs in different methods. So, really, when you get to the science of it, there shouldn`t be a lot of problem in differentiating the two compounds.
PINSKY: Thank you, Dr. Spitz.
Mark, what would you make of all this? Would you keep poking holes in this the way they`re doing it, or do you think they`re taking the wrong approach?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They did it the wrong way. And I do believe that Jose Baez is doing the best that he can at his level of awareness.
But again, he was a member of the bar for three years before he took on this case. And the problem is, on paper, yes, you always question someone`s motive, their bias, their interests. But this guy specifically, Vass, came across credible and believable.
And so who looked bad? Jose did.
Now, they had the chance to depose this guy beforehand. They knew his demeanor. They should have said we`re not going to attack him the way that Jose chose to do.
PINSKY: All right. Interesting.
Now, was Caylee given the knockout drug chloroform? Where would someone come up with a crazy idea like that, to chloroform a child?
Plus, a heart-shaped sticker, Casey`s pet cemetery, Winnie the Pooh blankets, we`re going to talk to you about all of that. The jury has not heard this yet.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you recognize it to be?
C. ANTHONY: Caylee`s bed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does that photograph fairly and accurately depict Caylee`s bed?
C. ANTHONY: Yes. I mean, there`s a few things that`s normally on it that`s not there in the sheets, not on her pillow -- I mean, the pillow case isn`t on the pillow. But yes, that`s Caylee`s bed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
C. ANTHONY: Caylee is missing. And continue to look for Caylee. She is not dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do you deal with what they`re saying about in the trunk of the car?
C. ANTHONY: There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots? It stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Well, there we are again. Is that more lies, more cover-up, or just a poor, bewildered woman who`s trying to deal with all this?
Tonight, experts testify it wasn`t food or a dead animal making that car smell like a dead body. Air samples were taken from the trunk and there were particles in the air that showed human decomposition.
Now, these tests are not 100 percent conclusive, but I`m just saying.
Hair from the trunk was also tested. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I was looking for were any hairs that exhibited apparent characteristics of decomposition, and then that hair I compared to hair recovered from the hairbrush, which is identified as belonging to Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh is back with us. I also have joining me psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall, and former criminal defense attorney John Lucich.
Now, John, the hair apparently could belong to any female member of the Anthony family, Caylee, Casey or Cindy. But only one of those people was postmortem.
Now, what do you make on the death bands on the hair? And help explain this to us.
JOHN LUCICH, FMR. CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: OK. There`s a band, a dark band that appears just at the base above where the follicle would have been. And if that`s there, according to the experts, that means this came from a decomposed body.
If that is true, and that band was there, then we know it could have only been Caylee`s because it`s not going to come from Casey. She`s still alive. It`s not going to come from Cindy. She`s still alive.
And by the way, who was the last one of either one of those were in Casey`s trunk? So, when you put two and two together, it still equals what`s going on here.
Now, also what you were talking about the chloroform before, let`s not forget about Casey Anthony`s searches on the Internet about how to make chloroform. So that, in and of itself, is not going to stand itself. There`s no doubt in my mind, they`re going to try to link those two pieces of evidence to show that there`s a correlation.
PINSKY: Well, interesting you would mention chloroform, because you at home are not going to believe this. Casey`s ex-boyfriend, this guy named Ricardo Morales, posted this on his MySpace page. Look at this.
Come on now. There -- let`s see. There it is.
Look at that. Isn`t that romantic? "Win her over with chloroform."
This is what he posted -- he posted this photo on his -- or one of his pages. And then someone subsequently from the Anthony`s home computer Googled "chloroform." And then Caylee went missing.
I mean, I don`t know.
Now, listen, people need to be aware that chloroform has become a drug of abuse. Inhalants are out there. I mean, maybe they were just getting high using this drug. Maybe the kid got into their -- who knows.
But Bethany, my next question is for you.
And I was preparing Bethany that I had a tough question for her.
What`s wrong with me that I cannot -- I cannot get my head around how potentially sick this situation is? I literally don`t want to believe it. It`s just -- when I think of the possibility of what might be the case here, I get physically ill, and so I push away from it.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: I think it`s because you have a hard time understanding why a parent would not bond with the child. Because you`re a dad, right?
MARSHALL: You have triplets --
PINSKY: I literally get sick. I think it just makes me -- it kills me. When I relate it in, it`s a very sickening feeling.
MARSHALL: But when you really understand the nature of Casey Anthony`s disorder, what you have to keep in mind is narcissism, borderline and antisocial personality disorder. With borderline, remember, there`s a sensitivity to abandonment.
MARSHALL: So, she would throw her child under the bus in order to frantically reunite with her boyfriends. With narcissism, there`s lack of empathy and playing by one`s own rules instead of the rules of society. But with antisocial, there`s severe lack of anxiety. OK?
EIGLARSH: What about us, though?
PINSKY: What`s wrong with us?
EIGLARSH: Like, I`m dying to know -- I`m a father of three. I --
PINSKY: I get what potentially on paper -- and I`m glad you went through that, too, because we throw along lots of terms on this show, and I want people to understand. And finish with the antisocial, and then tell us about Mark and me and what`s wrong with us.
EIGLARSH: We don`t want to believe this. We don`t want to see it. I don`t --
PINSKY: Yes. And people attack me on the Internet if I don`t go all the way there, because I want to accept that maybe there`s some defense here, maybe this isn`t a monster. I`m open to that possibility.
The public doesn`t want that possibility. And when I think about what might have gone on here, I physically got ill.
Finish with the antisocial. I`m sorry.
MARSHALL: OK. The thing with antisocial is there`s severe lack of anxiety and stress. That`s why she looks so calm in court.
Anxiety is what causes the conscience to form. When we`re little kids, we get in trouble, our mothers get mad at us. We`re like, oh, no, she`s going to withdraw her love. We get anxious and we conform.
So, that anxiety is crucial to the formation of a conscience. Some researchers have suggested that people with antisocial personality disorder do not have anxiety, and because of that, they have no conscience.
Now, the two of you are horrified because you`re both dads, right?
MARSHALL: You`re a dad.
EIGLARSH: Two young kids, yes.
MARSHALL: You should feel horrified. That`s why we`re all watching this case. We know what it`s like to be a child. Many people know what it`s like to be a mother. And the idea that that bond could be disrupted is a very difficult thing for us to wrap our minds around.
PINSKY: Well, it is the matrix of the source of life and then the end -- somebody ending -- it is the source -- also ending life is mind-bending.
EIGLARSH: And don`t you think it`s going to ultimately help the defense in that most people, but certainly jurors, don`t want to believe that a mother, that anyone is capable of doing this?
PINSKY: Would you play on people like me? If you were a defense --
EIGLARSH: Absolutely. I will do whatever it takes to get my client acquitted.
PINSKY: Is that OK with you?
EIGLARSH: The prosecution`s role is to seek the truth. A defense attorney`s role is not the same. It is not.
PINSKY: It`s to give a fair trial?
EIGLARSH: No, absolutely not.
PINSKY: Get them off.
EIGLARSH: In fact, that`s a joke when defense lawyers or even prosecutors -- even prosecutors say we want a fair and impartial jury. That is crap. The reality is the defense wants their client acquitted and will do whatever it takes to make that happen. That`s our system of justice.
MARSHALL: What would you do if you don`t seek the truth?
PINSKY: I don`t -- we`re from a different discipline.
But Mark, please ignore your Twitter this evening. People will be out after you. They`ll be with pitchforks and torches.
EIGLARSH: That`s our system. O.J. walked free after the first case because of that. That`s the bottom line.
What, he`s innocent? No. He was found not guilty, which simply means it was not proven. That`s all.
PINSKY: Do you think that they`ll be able to prove this case?
EIGLARSH: Million-dollar question. We also have not heard the defense case yet. So, deciding right now whether she`s guilty or not based on the evidence is like deciding who`s going to win the basketball game after the first quarter. We`re not done.
PINSKY: But there`s certainly a lot of stuff hooking her up here. I mean, connecting her. And -
EIGLARSH: Listen, the court of public opinion is totally different.
EIGLARSH: Court of law is different than that, OK? So, yes, there`s no question she`s involved. I`ll go out there and say that.
PINSKY: OK. Well, I will say also that t he lying and the egregious parenting is so profound and so difficult to watch, that you can`t help but jump to the next conclusion, which is she capable of anything?
PINSKY: We are taking your calls on this case.
Plus, will the cold, hard evidence link Caylee`s murder to the Anthony home?
Stay with us. We`re going to talk about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, DEFENDANT: My heart is aching because I just want to be back with our family. It beats (ph) my gut every day stronger and stronger. I know we`re going to see Caylee. I know she`s coming home.
I can feel it. I want you to know that. I know. I want her home now.
CINDY ANTHONY: I want her home so we can celebrate her 3rd birthday - -
CASEY ANTHONY: I know.
CINDY ANTHONY: -- as a family again.
CASEY ANTHONY: I know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was from last week. And we know that wasn`t true and just more of Casey`s perpetual lies.
The murder trial is now going into its third week. We`re receiving your calls, comments, questions, and theories on the trial.
If you have questions, we have got some answers here. So let`s go right to the phones.
First up, we`ve got Mary from Illinois.
What`s on your mind?
MARY, ILLINOIS: Dr. Drew --
MARY: -- as a mom, I know how hard it can be to be a mom. But if you have a cauldron of psychological issues, like Casey obviously has, being a mommy is the last thing she needed to be. I condemn what she did, but let`s not demonize her. Like any human being, she is complicated, confused, and in need of compassion.
PINSKY: Maybe. That`s certainly the case that some people have made for her. And she may be a sick person and not an evil person. That`s possible.
The problem is, the prosecution -- rather, the defense is not really making that case. We`ve heard attorneys on this program say that`s what the case they should be making. We`ll see if that ends up being the case. If she is a sick person and nothing more, I do feel bad for her, but it doesn`t look like that right now.
Ashley from Michigan, your thoughts?
ASHLEY, MICHIGAN: Hi, Dr. Drew.
ASHLEY: Casey Anthony`s defense claims abuse. Every person has had hard times in their life, and some are even worse than her claims, but most people don`t kill their children or lie about where they are.
PINSKY: Yes, that`s true. And that`s really what`s at issue here, is that the degree of the outlandishness of the lies and the way she believed them, the egregious parenting, it`s easy then to go to the next step and go, well, she`s capable of anything. And that`s what we`re all sitting here trying to determine, whether in fact that is the case.
I have got a question here from Melissa. "Do you think the letters Casey wrote to another inmate in jail about her brother sexually abusing her was purposely put out there to start the idea about the sexual abuse history?"
PINSKY: I think that we don`t know. Of course that`s possible. But the reality is, if she were really going to make a sexual abuse defense, it should have been a more egregious kind of sexual abuse to explain the kind of behavior we`re seeing in Casey.
Also, a Facebook question. Alison asks, "Is sociopathic personality disorder a physiological or learned behavior?"
Well, a complicated answer to that. All mental health and all characterological phenomenon have a biological basis. They occur in the brain.
I don`t think about it as a learned behavior. I think about it as something which has a genetic liability to it. There`s some genetic linkages to it.
And secondly, something usually happens in the child`s early development to block their ability to develop the part of the brain which develops that high order function we call empathy. Sociopaths don`t have any empathy.
All right. So, up next, what is it like to be a juror on a murder trial and be sequestered from your family and friends? The high emotions, the conflicting testimony.
When we come back, we`re getting into the psyche of a juror. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASHTON: Do you have an opinion as to whether it was a decomposing human body in the trunk of that car at some point?
VASS: I do have an opinion.
ASHTON: And what is that opinion?
VASS: I can find no other plausible explanation other than that to explain all the results we found.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): The psyche of the jury, bombarded with emotional testimony one week --
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: My granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month.
PINSKY: Inundated with scientific evidence the next. They can`t talk about it. They can`t share it. They can`t leave. How do they process it and how do they cope? I`m asking a juror from the Scott Peterson trial. And what about the evidence that they haven`t seen? Caylee`s shirt, the laundry bag, the strip of duct tape, and that disturbing image of the heart-shaped sticker. You`ve heard about it. They haven`t. I`m breaking it down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): We are going to get to more Casey Anthony murder trial in just a minute, but first, breaking news today. New York Representative Anthony Weiner gave a tearful confession in front of television cameras. The news of lewd of online exchanges broke over the last week and came to a boiling point, spilling over with these words today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ANTHONY WEINER, (D) NEW YORK: Over the past few years, I have engaged in several inappropriate conversations conducted over Twitter, Facebook, e-mail and occasionally on the phone with women I had met online. I haven`t told the truth. And I`ve done things that I deeply regret.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Well, everybody getting used to getting lied to? Seems like we`re getting that on all front in media these days, and certainly, plenty of politicians have lied over the years to us. Thankfully, he`s coming forward with the truth here, Congressman Weiner. I commend him for doing that. Here`s my concern. I didn`t hear him talk about really his plan to handle what has happened here and conceptualize this as you will.
In my world, this is usually thought up in the context of sexual addiction, sexual compulsions, and it`s something that needs a lot of treatment for the individual and the partner. They both need to work on this, and people can have good outcomes. I didn`t hear him give that kind of a message. Of course, his own business.
My fear here, and this is, I think, a point of view that only I will have, at least, maybe Bethany, you`ll have a similar point of view, but my fear is when all this really rushes in and those moments that you see him looking so overwhelmed and so ashamed, that he could develop a severe mood disturbance, and to my humble estimation, I would keep a close eye on this man. Things like this can lead to suicides. You have to remember, that`s a human being that you`re all taking aim at there.
I`m not saying it`s OK what he did, but to really vilify this guy can have very severe consequences. Hopefully, he`ll get treatment. Hopefully, he will take care of himself, but there`s a real person there and real people when they`re that deeply ashamed and that profoundly humiliated, it can be an unstable situation. I don`t know this man. So, I don`t know for sure, but let`s all keep good thoughts for him.
At least, he had the common sense, good sense to come out and be truthful. Fortunately, we`re going to spend our time talking about somebody who`s not been so truthful. Indeed, lots of emotional testimony coming out in the Casey Anthony trial. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I overheard her telling the -- that Caylee had been gone for 31 days.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Had you ever sexually molested your daughter, Casey Anthony?
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: No, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: How do jurors deal with all this? Mike Belmessieri was a sequestered juror on the Scott Peterson trial. Scott Peterson, obviously, was sentenced to death for the murder of his pregnant wife Laci. Also back with us is criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh, and psychoanalyst, Bethany Marshall.
Now, Mike, you`re a former police officer and marine corps vet, and you thought you`d seen it all, and yet, even you were affected by the testimony you heard in the Scott Peterson trial, is that right?
MIKE BELMESSIERI, JUROR ON SCOTT PETERSON TRIAL: The testimony, yes, mostly the autopsy photos. They were just brutal. Absolutely brutal.
PINSKY: And the one thing I have read about jurors, that many of them experience posttraumatic stress symptoms for weeks or months or even years after they`ve been on a jury trial. Has that been your case?
BELMESSIERI: Yes, that`s -- that`s very accurate. I saw it and some of my co-jurors. And it -- as a result of what I saw in that trial, I had some flashbacks and brought up some bad memories. Yes, you know, we -- people need help when they`re on these sort of juries.
PINSKY: That`s right. And Mike, let me ask you this. Let me ask you this question, and that is, we`re hearing all this conflicting testimony. When I try to put myself in the position of a juror, my head spins. How do you make sense of these things that seem so contradictory?
BELMESSIERI: Well, you know, that`s what deliberations is all about. And so, as you go through the process of a trial, yes, there`s no question that you`ll form some thoughts, some opinions as to the guilt or innocence of the accused, defendant, but you know, you get into the process of deliberations, and then you, with your co-jurors, go through those things, take it apart, what makes sense, what doesn`t? You know, and it`s a culmination of evidence presented, testimony, and observance of the defendant.
PINSKY: Got you.
BELMESSIERI: To ride at a point where you --
PINSKY: Mark said makes the case in here all the time. Bethany got something to say about this.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: I have to jump in about this posttraumatic stress. People only have posttraumatic stress if a current event reminds them of an earlier trauma.
PINSKY: Yes. Well, at least, you can say maybe acute stress reaction or something to having been exposed to egregious, horrible stuff --
MARSHALL: What I could say is that when they watch this mother who allegedly killed her child, there`s going to be trauma if they were abused as a child, if they see her with a blank expression, and they have a neglectful mother, it could --
PINSKY: Project all that, and Mike you`re --
MARSHALL: And also being framed. If they see George Anthony as being framed and they`ve been framed in their life, that`s going to be very traumatic.
PINSKY: Mark, react to this, too.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, if they see pictures of a decomposing body, the skull, a piece of tape over the mouth, those images, you don`t have to go through anything. Just look at that and that`s it. That`s going to lead to conviction. It more so for the prosecution any day.
PINSKY: Mike, you`re reacting to this. What`s your reaction?
BELMESSIERI: Well, with all due respect to the lady, I don`t think she knows what the heck she`s talking about.
BELMESSIERI: Yes, I was reminded -- I was reminded of things that happened in my past, which, by the way, had nothing to do with sexual -- seeing people blowing up. Yes, you know, but, there were people on my jury, the jury I served on, who never saw those things. And, yes, they definitely got their tree shaken, so to speak.
MARSHALL: But you know what, Mike, I`m not talking about you, in particular. What I`m saying is that there are a lot of people in our society who have trauma, and in a particular way, this case recapitulates that trauma. That`s why we`re all watching it. Dr. Drew and I were talking about it just prior to the show. He`s traumatized by thinking about --
PINSKY: She didn`t mean you, buddy. Don`t take it personally.
PINSKY: I`m traumatized by this case. I get physically ill -- hold on a second. Hold on a second, Mike. I`ve got to talk about something the defense did when they painted a not so pretty picture of Casey Anthony`s father, George. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She could be 13 years old, have her father (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth, and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened. Caylee Anthony died on June 16, 2008, when she drowned in her family`s swimming pool. She saw George Anthony holding Caylee in his arms.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Then George -- after he`s painted as a monster, Casey calls him the best dad in the world in a jailhouse tape. Mark, how does jury deal with these conflicting evidences?
EIGLARSH: Well, an effective argument until you then see the evidence, and the evidence doesn`t support what the defense is alleging, and as cheesy as this might sound, the prosecution get up there and say, look, if it don`t fit, you must acquit. This coming from the prosecution. It doesn`t fit.
There`s no evidence that he molested her so far. Lee wasn`t even asked it at all by the defense. So, who can testify to it? Oh, yes, the defendant. Forget about it. You never want the case to come down to the testimony of the defendant.
MARSHALL: I think most people have the attention span of gnats. So, they`re going to see what`s right in front of them on that particular day, but what they will remember is when it was said that there was a $250,000 reward for Caylee, and Casey said, what about me? That could be put toward my defense. OK? They`re going to remember that.
EIGLARSH: She`s going to - now, she has to testify. I always said that`s the last thing you want to do.
PINSKY: Well, that`s going to be interesting if she does.
Coming up next, evidence the jury hasn`t heard yet but could impact hugely on whether the case is found guilty or innocent, and we`re going to share it with you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m in the wooded area down by the school. I need you like now. I just found a human skull.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Today, we`ve been talking about the forensic elements found in Casey Anthony`s trunk, but we`re also going to talk about what the jury has not heard yet. Residue from a heart-shaped sticker was found on the duct tape covering Caylee`s mouth. God, when I think about that stuff, I get sickened again. And this sticker that fits that residue was found near the body. A similar sticker sheet was found at the Anthony home.
A cold-blooded killer is going to put a heart -- I mean, somebody who`s not invested in that child -- and Casey`s friend told investigators Casey used to bury animals in the same woods where Caylee`s body was found, and when she would do so, she would place heart stickers on the graves. Criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh is here with us and bounty hunter, Leonard Padilla also here. He spent time in the Anthony home.
Leonard, did you see heart-shaped stickers? How significant is that?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: I didn`t, but Tracy, my associate, who spent the nine days, 24/7 with her, did see the stickers. She also saw the beads that were found out at the Jay Blanchard Park in the form of a cross. And other items that were in the house that have been described as like the laundry bag, the garbage bags, and all of the things like that, she --
PINSKY: Well, let`s talk about the laundry bag. Let`s talk about the laundry bag for a second. The jury has not seen the laundry bag or heard about the laundry bag that was found near Caylee`s body. And as you say, there are similar bags were seen in the Anthony`s home. In addition, the duct tape on Caylee`s body is an unusual brand. And that brand was found in the Anthony`s garage. Mark, how damaging is this all going to be?
EIGLARSH: Well, very compelling, but again, pieces of the puzzle, and not one of those pieces equals first-degree murder. For me, the heart- shaped sticker speaks volumes. I have prosecuted and defended many people who do bad things. They don`t put a heart-shaped sticker if they`re a stranger. So, it narrows down the pool of folk who I believe could possibly have done this.
PINSKY: Does it make it less likely to have been cold-hearted premeditated? Does it say that to you?
EIGLARSH: To the public, they could all form an opinion. To me, personally, I don`t know. I don`t think it does, personally. Legally? I don`t think you can make that argument, that leap.
PINSKY: Leonard, how about you?
PADILLA: No, Casey`s a strange person. She`s totally different than people -- like you say, you`ve got children, I`ve got children, Mark`s got children. We don`t think in the same universe as Casey thinks. She is a totally different person, but let me run something past you that`s going to happen as Baez as a defense. He`s going to say that on the night of the 15th after they viewed those pictures from the visit to the grandmother, Casey and Cindy got in a horrible fight.
Casey took off out the front door, left the child in bed. She came back the next day, and woh, she sees her dad carrying a drowned child, the rest is history.
PINSKY: You think that`s going to be the defense?
PINSKY: Do you buy it?
PADILLA: Do I? No, absolutely not, because -- no, no, she gave her chloroform to put her to sleep, and she overdid the chloroform. No, I don`t buy that, but that`s -- that`s where Baez is going.
PINSKY: So, you think -- you adhere to the theory that she used to use Xanax to put her to sleep, Zany the nanny --
PADILLA: Absolutely. Yes.
PINSKY: And then she run out of money and then transferred to chloroform which is cheap and then overdid it. Do you think she got high with the chloroform?
PADILLA: Well, the thing about -- chloroform is a very dangerous item. No, no, it`s very -- no, no she didn`t, but it`s very dangerous. Here`s the other thing, you take a urine in a diaper and you take pool cleaner and you mix it, and you`ve got chloroform. That`s also where Baez is going to come up with how the chloroform got in the trunk of the car.
EIGLARSH: I mean, I love Leonard and I love his hats, God bless him, but again, he`s watching this trial like we are --
PINSKY: He was in the home.
EIGLARSH: He was in the home, so what does that mean? In other words, he -- no disrespect to Leonard, I think he`s doing, again, the best he can at his level of his awareness but that doesn`t mean that he has firsthand knowledge of any of the theories that the prosecution`s advancing.
EIGLARSH: Right. So, let`s not --
PADILLA: Hey, Mark. Mark --
EIGLARSH: Leonard, hi, how are you?
PADILLA: Very fine. Take this for what it`s worth. Why didn`t the prosecution bring up the big fight with Cindy and Casey that night? Why didn`t they say that George wasn`t there? He didn`t see the child the next day because when she ran out of the house that night, she took the child with her. George didn`t see her the next day. And Cindy had a big fight with her. Why didn`t the prosecution press for that? Because they`re afraid --
EIGLARSH: Why didn`t they bring up a ton of things, Lenny? You know, here`s the bottom line. I want to correct something that you just said before the break.
PADILLA: That I said?
EIGLARSH: Yes, you said. You said, you know, will she be found guilty or innocent? That`s the biggest misconception out there. That, somehow, O.J. is innocent of killing two people because he was found not guilty. It`s not. It`s not that. On the verdict form, they`re asked to decide one of two possibilities, guilty or not guilty. Innocent is not a finding that jurors make.
So, Casey could be found not guilty and still be guilty as can be. I`ve had literally jurors come up to my acquitted clients and say, you need to watch yourself, because they just made a finding under the law that the case wasn`t proven beyond a reasonable doubt. That`s the issue.
PINSKY: Leonard, that`s the issue. Can they prove it? You said something about Casey being different than anybody else. What did you mean by that and does that add to the burden of evidence here?
PADILLA: Well, the other day, I referred to her as being insane and you corrected me with the technical terms for what her problem is. Casey doesn`t care what she does, and she has no morality as to what she doesn`t do. As far as --
PINSKY: How do you know that? Leonard, what is the evidence for that? We believe that --
EIGLARSH: On that, I agree. You know, listen, on that, I agree --
PINSKY: We believe that based on all the lies and stuff, but Leonard, I like to know what you saw in that household that led you to conclude that.
PADILLA: You`ve never talked to her in person, so don`t be jumping down -- up and down. You`ve never talked to her in person. I`ve dealt with 4,000, 5,000 fugitives in my life. I know when a person is completely in another universe and they drift into our universe on occasion. I held her freedom in my hand. Right here, Mark.
EIGLARSH: Who killed JFK?
EIGLARSH: Who killed JFK while we`re on the subject matter? Oh, guru --
PADILLA: I`ll tell you one thing. I`ll tell you one thing. One of my associates bailed out the guy one time that said he knew where the magic bullet was that killed JFK.
EIGLARSH: Another show, another day.
PINSKY: But let me ask Leonard. I don`t understand what you`re getting at. So, what did you see? I`m curious. What did she do when she drifted in and out of our reality? Does she just lie so profoundly that it became ridiculous --
PADILLA: She`s sitting there. She`s sitting there watching television one night, and they`re announcing the death band on the hair. And she looks over to Tracy and she says, well, you know it`s not me because I`m here, I`m alive.
EIGLARSH: All right. Add that to the list of things, assuming it to be true, that tends to show that she`s not a good person. And there`s plenty -- there`s overwhelming evidence of that. That doesn`t prove anything.
PINSKY: So, Leonard, I think everyone agrees this is a lying, lying, lying, lying, egregiously bad parent, but the tie-in to the premeditated murder is what everyone is trying to come to. Can you give us something that you saw that really gives us a way to put this away?
EIGLARSH: That you saw firsthand, not that someone allegedly told you, like an associate. Something that you, Leonard Padilla, saw. The answer should be quick. No, right?
PADILLA: What`s that, Mark? What do you want to hear?
EIGLARSH: Absolutely nothing, because I know the answer. I`m a criminal defense lawyer. I know the answer to the question that I asked.
PINSKY: All right. Mark, thank you. Leonard, thank you --
PADILLA: You want to stick to criminal defense, Mark. Why haven`t you got the case?
PINSKY: Leonard, God bless you. Thank you for coming in. I appreciate it. Mark, thank you for being here. Leonard, I will have you back. No doubt, Mark, we`ll have you here all through this week, I hope.
Now, when it comes down to the jury, a jury of one`s peers, in a minute, a mother and a daughter who are in court today, where do they stand on the proveness -- provability or not provability of this particular case of a person who`s very guilty? Next, it`s my "Dr. Drew`s Jury."
PINSKY: All right. Now, all trials hinge on what a jury of one`s peers decide after all the evidence and arguments are done. Today, we begin to ask people like you at home what you see every day and how it affects your feelings about -- well, I want to call it guilt or innocence, which actually does matter to me, but we just heard Mark, the defense attorney, say we should be talking about proveness or not enough proof to convict.
Joining me are Pam Dunn and her daughter, Katie, both of whom were in the courtroom today. Welcome, Katie and Pam. Now, have you guys been following this trial from the start?
PAM DUNN, "WAS AT TRIAL TODAY": Absolutely. From the very beginning.
PINSKY: And you`re in the courtroom. You guys are now in the courtroom. What is your take on Casey? Do you have an opinion? Do you dislike her? Do you believe she`s a cold-blooded killer and does being in the courtroom tell you something that we just don`t get here watching through the cameras?
KATIE GENRICH, WAS IN COURT TODAY: I would say that -- I definitely think she`s guilty. She`s certainly been a hard person to stomach. I don`t have any kids, but I`m currently pregnant with my first. And I can`t even imagine any mother treating their daughter that way and reacting to a loss that way, but, nonetheless, being in the courtroom today did make me feel a little bit more sympathy towards her just because she is a frail young girl that, to me, looked --
DUNN: She almost looks like a child in there. I`ve been following the case since the day the 911 calls broke over our local news. And my opinion has not changed. I feel like Casey is absolutely guilty. Whether it was an accidental death or on purpose, I think, Casey is solely responsible --
PINSKY: Let me ask you this. The fact that you are both mothers, and I think about to be a mom, women are very intense about this case. Is there something about it that really gets you and can you describe that? As a mother.
DUNN: I`m not sure what it is. I tried to figure out why I`m so obsessed with the case, but I just -- I know in my heart that she`s guilty. I just -- I can`t imagine a mother being so careless and reckless with her child. I have four grandchildren that are just within months of Caylee`s age when she died, and we just -- we worship them, we cherish them, and I just -- we just take such good care of them.
I just can`t imagine living that kind of life. I think she had a bad relationship with her parents and wanted her freedom. Caylee tied her down, so she found other ways -- other babysitters, whether it be by chloroforming her and having her sleep or -- I don`t know, but anyway, I just --
PINSKY: Ladies, I want to thank you -- I thank you both for joining me. I think you articulate something that my viewers certainly feel at home which is just this is unfathomable. How could a mother behave like this, and it certainly evokes fantasies in all of us that she is guilty. Those defense say Caylee drowned in a pool. The prosecution says Caylee killed her little girl so mom could party.
This is about the death of an innocent little girl. That`s the other thing on my mind tonight. This world that we want to believe about ourselves as humans sometimes seems to constantly disappoint and amaze. I`ll see you next time.