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Casey Anthony Murder Trial
Aired June 7, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: All right. Here we go.
I`m amazed. Scientific evidence keeps pouring out of the Casey Anthony murder trial. Today it`s cadaver dogs, chloroform, and heaps of trash. I`m reading between the lines and looking at the possible implications.
And now from Casey Anthony to Anthony Weiner, I`m breaking down his web of lies and what lies ahead for the disgraced congressman.
Let`s get started.
All right. Now, on tonight`s show there seems to be a common theme, one we`ve been hearing about for most of the last couple weeks. And that`s lies.
I have been talking about so many people lying, that I`ve been starting to check myself and go -- they lie with such conviction. I have to ask myself, am I being honest, am I OK? Is it me? Do I not know when I`m lying sometimes?
How can these people be like this? How can they lie with such conviction? Have we come to the point in our society where our word means nothing, or we expect other people to lie to us? We don`t value the truth?
I mean, remember in the old West where people would say your word meant everything? I think I`m beginning to understand why that is.
Lying has such massive consequences, and everything -- I mean, the fabric of society unravels when people lie. Now, if you don`t believe that, at least from watching all these stories we`ve been reporting, particularly, obviously, Casey Anthony, lying has consequences.
And, of course, Congressman Weiner is hearing the same thing tonight as well. We`re going to get into that a little bit.
But, you know what? Let me just stop and say, I don`t know about you guys, but I am tired of it.
Aren`t you tired of hearing lies? Aren`t you just tired of it? It was fascinating me for a while watching Casey lie. I mean, I couldn`t take my eyes off it.
Now I`m hearing from congressmen, now I`m reminded of other lies of government officials I`ve heard. And I`m worried about people in my life and whether they`re lying and whether I`m being rigorously honest.
I`d be interested to know if you`re all going through the same kind of thing. I certainly -- it`s important to check ourselves and be rigorously honest.
So, I will tell you, as a physician when I treat addicts and people with mental health issues, the number one message we`re often giving people is be rigorously honest. Just start with that.
All right. So, tonight, more evidence has been revealed in the Casey Anthony trial. Take a look and then we`ll talk some more.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The battle over chloroform continued in day 12 of the Casey Anthony murder trial.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors also contend Casey drugged Caylee with chloroform.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Residues of chloroform were identified.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s not what you would call shockingly high. You were surprised that you got everything off that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There they are going back and forth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The judge has not decided whether he`ll let the jury smell some of the evidence.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: It smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re talking about cans of air sample.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These cans of death.
NANCY GRACE, HOST, "NANCY GRACE": Defense attorney Jose Baez suggests it was pounds and pounds of raw hamburger meat?
PINSKY: Well, that`s right. And experts told the jurors about chloroform found in Casey Anthony`s trunk. But Casey`s lead attorney tried to blame the high levels of chloroform on household cleaning products.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: These levels, I guess residue levels of chloroform that were found and tested, are equal to what you might find in a common cleaning product, is it not, sir?
MICHAEL RICKENBACH, FBI CHEMIST: Yes, from my experience, those levels have been detected in substance that have been used for cleaning products, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. But how is the defense going to explain the fact that someone Googled "chloroform" on the Casey Anthony family computer?
Witnesses also testified about tons of trash found in Casey`s car. The defense says the garbage, not a body, caused the smell of decay coming from the car.
Let`s go straight to my guests. I`ve got criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh. He is here with me in the studio. And again, host of "In Session" on truTV, Ryan Smith, joins us from outside the courtroom.
Ryan, what is the latest?
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: Oh, Dr. Drew, it has been a day focused on chloroform and decomposition evidence.
First, you mentioned earlier, witnesses coming up talking about levels of chloroform found in that trunk. And today`s chemist said that there`s a little bit less than maybe the doctor before, Arpad Vass, said there was, but it was still present in that trunk.
Also, cadaver dogs sniffed the trunk of Casey`s car and found evidence of decomposition. Now, the defense hit hard on that, trying to explain that there`s handler bias and there could have been a number of other things that that could have been. But the prosecution is building the case piece by piece, trying to connect Casey Anthony to Caylee`s death.
PINSKY: Ryan, do you think they had success with that? Or was it the defense`s day successful at poking holes in it?
SMITH: Oh, I think the prosecution had a lot of success, especially with the cadaver dogs, because these dogs have no reason to lie. They simply are told to do a job, and they do it, and that`s what they did.
However, the defense is poking holes. So, I think, overall, the prosecution was much more successful because they`re putting together the pieces of the puzzle, trying to show the jury, hey, here`s the evidence that could lead to a conviction.
PINSKY: All right. Thanks, Ryan.
Mark, do you think they had success poking holes? You said yesterday that that`s their job, is not to set up a big landscape, which they did, and showed their hand in the opening statements, but to poke holes in the prosecution`s mosaic.
Did they do that today?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: A little bit. I mean, ultimately, it`s up to each juror to decide whether they believe the evidence or not.
Keep in mind, we haven`t heard the defense experts. They`ll get up there. And I`m sure they have somebody who says dogs do lie, dogs don`t always tell the truth. They`ll have experts to say whatever they need to say to keep the smell of death out of that car and high levels of chloroform, because that then helps the prosecution.
PINSKY: What was Nancy Grace talking about with the pounds and pounds of meat?
EIGLARSH: Jose Baez -- and I`m no scientist. I`m sure he has somebody to say that having raw meat or maybe in chicken you might find some of the same chemicals that they`re claiming were beneficial for the prosecutors.
PINSKY: In other words, the decaying flesh theory, not the chloroform?
EIGLARSH: That`s what he`s trying to suggest. The problem is, he`s no expert either.
You know, in the O.J. case, you had Barry Scheck. That was his job, expert upon expert. He knew DNA, he went after the DNA hard.
Jose is not. So it`s really problematic for me to watch this.
PINSKY: And then, of course, there`s the chronic problem of her not being very likeable by any of us. And he`s not really seeming to do anything on that front. Go ahead.
EIGLARSH: That does not help. Again, if they`re going to root for the defense lawyer, I think they have to first like the defendant, or at least not have disdain for her.
The minute she started telling lies you have to, if you have a pulse, go, I don`t like that girl over there. He better have some compelling evidence, because otherwise -- even though it`s not their burden, it`s not the defense burden at all.
PINSKY: I understand that.
Now, Ryan, back to you.
Now, that`s my thing today, about all the lying that I`m frankly disgusted and sick of. Anything happen in the courtroom with Casey? Did she change her demeanor? Did the jury seem to respond to her in any interesting ways?
SMITH: You know, Dr. Drew, her demeanor in court is stoic throughout. It never really changes with this evidence.
And it`s interesting, because they`re talking about decomposition and death, and a lot of times you expect a mother who`s lost her daughter to get emotional at some of this testimony. And that doesn`t really happen.
And you talk about the likeability factor, I think that`s key. Look, you don`t want a defendant to kind of fake it in court or do something that`s not natural. But you do want to see some emotion and some connection to her daughter. And you just don`t see that in court with Casey.
PINSKY: I`m actually watching some footage alongside of you, Ryan, where she looked a little coquettish, a little seductive. It was a little weird.
I mean, is she doing stuff like that in court?
SMITH: She is. You know, it`s her appearance. And I`m not trying to cast dispersions on her, but a lot of times she --
PINSKY: Why not? She`s the one that supposedly murdered this kid, this child. Why can`t we -- if we`re really speculating here, why can`t we cast dispersions on her?
SMITH: You know why, Dr. Drew? Because everybody handles adversity differently.
And, you know, it may be just her affect that she`s -- you know, the testimony is a little bit dense, it`s hard to understand, maybe she`s trying to understand it. So we like to think of it that way.
But I have got to agree with you on one point, which is the idea that you want to appear likeable and connected. And when you`re looking around or looking down, or not appealing, people don`t like it.
PINSKY: Yes. I have 20 seconds.
EIGLARSH: Ryan`s right.
PINSKY: Thanks, Ryan.
EIGLARSH: Yes, the court of public opinion could look at her and study every move. But in court, the judge instructs the jury the demeanor of the defendant, whether the defendant testifies or not, these are not pieces of evidence.
PINSKY: Wait. But you said she needs to be likeable.
EIGLARSH: She does because they`re looking over at her.
PINSKY: So even though it`s not admissible, it still affects their decision-making.
EIGLARSH: We`re humans. Of course.
PINSKY: All right. Thank you, Mark.
Thank you, Ryan.
Coming up, a witness testifies about cadaver dogs. What did K-9 dogs find in the woods that investigators then missed?
Stay tuned with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I got within three feet of my daughter`s car, and the worst odor that you could possibly smell in this world. And I`ve smelled that odor before.
It smelled like a decomposed body. And you could smell an odor. You don`t forget that odor no matter what it is. You never, ever forget it.
I believe something was placed in the back of that trunk. I don`t want to believe it was my granddaughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GERARDO BLOISE, CSI EXAMINER, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: I know that smell from a decomposed body. It is, because that smell is unique. For instance, when I had my first case with a decomposed body in Puerto Rico, that smell, once you smell it, you will never forget that smell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Did that unique smell coming from Casey`s car come from little Caylee`s body, or from piles of rotting garbage found in Casey Anthony`s trunk? Witnesses testified today about chloroform and trash found in Casey`s car. Plus, a cadaver dog handler testifies.
Mark Eiglarsh is back with us, and so now is Judge Alex Ferrer, host of "Judge Alex."
Mark, first up here, the dog handler talked about his dog was trained and certified. The dog apparently found bones after Caylee`s initial body finding was uncovered.
What is the significance of this?
EIGLARSH: Dogs are better than humans.
PINSKY: That`s it, period?
EIGLARSH: Further evidence of that. I mean, the humans couldn`t find it. The dog -- this guy was very credible and believable, and Jose tried to, you know, impeach him. And I think that he was not effective.
The dog finds bones that human beings who are looking, who are studying cannot find. That shows something very good for the prosecution.
PINSKY: Judge Alex, this is my first time speaking with you. I`m just curious -- we want to get a little bit into what`s going on with George. We haven`t heard from him in couple of days. But do you see anything particular going on in the evidence that`s mounting here?
JUDGE ALEX FERRER, HOST, "JUDGE ALEX": Well, you know, I mean, I saw Baez trying to chip away as best he could at the evidence of the cadaver dog. But let`s face it, anybody who has smelled a decomposing body -- and I have as a police officer -- it is a unique smell.
It doesn`t smell like rotting hamburger meat. It doesn`t smell like anything but a dead human body.
Now you heard it from the tow truck driver, heard it from George Anthony, who was a police officer, you heard it from the police officers at the scene, and you heard it from Dr. Vass, who`s probably like "Dr. Decomposition. The guy who has smelled more dead bodies than anybody in the world I think.
Everybody has identified it as a unique smell. The dog, quite frankly, was the icing on the cake. And if Baez wanting to say this dog was doing it for his Scooby snack, so be it. But that doesn`t eliminate all of the other people who have clearly identified it as a smell of decomposition in the trunk.
I think it`s a goose chase. A wild goose chase.
PINSKY: All right. So "Dr. Decomposition," as Alex has put it, has a lot of credibility.
EIGLARSH: He was extraordinary. And he got more credibility when Jose tried to attack him. Oh, you`re making money off this deal. No.
PINSKY: And as you said, Jose should not be doing that. He should not be taking on the people that know more than him.
EIGLARSH: Correct, unless you can do it effectively.
Speaking of being effective, you and I were talking a little bit about George and what`s going on with him. We haven`t heard much from Casey`s father, George, recently. And I guess recently we found out that he apparently knew --
EIGLARSH: It blew me away.
PINSKY: -- that these sexual abuse allegations were going to be made against him.
EIGLARSH: It blew me away, because I`m watching as opening statements are going down. And I want to see his reaction to it. And I was amazed at how he wasn`t reacting. And I thought it`s because the judge said anyone in the gallery needs to --
PINSKY: But it wasn`t that.
EIGLARSH: It wasn`t.
PINSKY: He knew it was coming.
EIGLARSH: Six weeks earlier, they said we`re going to accuse you of capital sexual battery for which life imprisonment could result in -- we need you to be cool with that.
PINSKY: But not only be cool to it. If he was cool with it, why didn`t he then, when he got on the stand, co-sign it? Why didn`t he then deny it?
EIGLARSH: I don`t know.
PINSKY: Judge Alex, I`m going to go to you. Were you aware that George was part of this plan to throw himself under the bus, I guess? And if so, why do you think he didn`t really step up on the stand and take it on?
FERRER: What happened was Baez and his co-counsel notified George Anthony`s attorneys two weeks before trial, this is what`s going to come out at trial, so it wouldn`t be this explosion in the courtroom. So they notified him, they let him know what was happening.
He was ready for it. I`m sure he had time to go through every emotion he could, and then he just sat there and took it.
If he was part of a scheme here, he would have done a much better job at getting his daughter off. He would have gone on the stand and let her blame him for the murder. He would have made himself look suspicious, not admit to anything, but make himself look suspicious. Because if the jury walks his daughter, they can`t retry her and he would never be prosecuted. He`s not part of this.
PINSKY: But gentlemen --
EIGLARSH: He took a hit in the court of public opinion. I don`t know that I would have taken that kind of hit. In other words, if I know what`s coming --
PINSKY: But, no, I think people back George up. They feel sympathy for him. I think people wonder whether she`s sick.
EIGLARSH: Some do. But you know how many people believe the abuse?
PINSKY: Well, I think there are enough people that --
EIGLARSH: And if he came out and said they`re going to be alleging so-and-so, or they just alleged that, that is absolute crap, you know? Listen, I love my kids, and I don`t know what I would do, but I would like to think I would say, go to Plan B Jose, do not throw me under the bus.
PINSKY: Or how about stay with the truth? Does anybody every think about that in a courtroom anymore?
EIGLARSH: No, no, no. Please. Don`t let that get in the way of justice. Stop it.
PINSKY: Mark, it makes me like -- Alex, you have something to say about that? I get a little bit of --
EIGLARSH: Alex, who has appeared in front of, understands, knows.
Go ahead, Alex. Tell them what the defense role is.
FERRER: No, what I was going to say is I think he knows where the truth would get his daughter. So I think he`s -- I would hate to be in the position of these parents.
Can you imagine knowing that your daughter probably killed your granddaughter? I think it`s probably beyond probably. And being stuck between helping your daughter or just sitting back and watching this train ride down the track.
And I would never -- I can`t imagine anything worse for a parent than losing their granddaughter and watching their own daughter go on trial for the murder.
PINSKY: It`s funny, Alex. While you`re speaking, there`s video playing alongside of you of Casey having what appears to be genuine emotion. I mean, that`s one of the first clips of her actually having feelings I have seen so far. Even the stuff --
FERRER: You might want to save that. That`s a rare moment.
PINSKY: Well, it is a rare moment. That`s my --
EIGLARSH: I`m not buying into it. They probably didn`t put the cheese in her bologna sandwich. I don`t know what that means. What does that mean?
PINSKY: I thought you were a defense lawyer.
EIGLARSH: You`re buying into that.
PINSKY: Well, I`m just saying, what I saw in the jailhouse videos where she was cantankerous and irritable and hostile, that was hostility, all I saw there. And here I`m actually seeing a sadness. I mean, she actually looks sad.
EIGLARSH: She`s smart enough to know that they`re all watching. I wouldn`t trust anything out of this.
PINSKY: You`re a defense attorney?
EIGLARSH: Yes, I am.
PINSKY: I`m just checking.
Alex, go ahead.
FERRER: I have seen -- at this point I`ve tried probably 1,500 trials. I`ve tried a bunch of murders. I have never, and I`m sure Mark has never, seen anybody who lies like she does. It`s actually very disturbing, how good she is at lying.
PINSKY: Well, I`ll tell you Alex, that`s the part that actually captivates me. I mean, I can`t take my eyes off the lying. It`s like watching some sort of accident unfold.
It makes you -- it bends your sense of reality, is what it does. And it makes it easy to believe that almost anything`s possible here from this young lady.
EIGLARSH: Correct. And here`s the value. None of us have seen anybody lie this much.
Hang on one second, Judge.
We`ve never seen anyone like this who looks believable, but it`s not accurate.
PINSKY: I`ve seen that. I`ve seen that before, but --
EIGLARSH: From addicts.
PINSKY: But also, I deal with very, very, very sick people. And I don`t deal so much with criminals.
And criminals, we know, that`s really the question here. Is she ill or is she a criminal?
And people -- there`s not much evidence that she`s ill. And if she is ill, I hope they can show that, because she will become somewhat sympathetic then -- somewhat. But I done think they`re going to.
Thank you, Alex.
Thank you, Mark.
Coming up, we are taking your calls on this case.
Plus, what the jury has not seen yet in Caylee`s murder.
And what was Anthony Weiner thinking? What made him lie? I`ll tell you what I think.
You need to stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, DEFENDANT: Right now, I`m so hurt by everything. I don`t even know what to say. I`m just as much as a victim as the rest of you, and it hasn`t been portrayed that way, and it probably won`t be, but I know that, and at least there are other people that know that and understand that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: Well, the answer is actually relatively simple. She never was missing. Caylee Anthony died on June 16, 2008, when she drowned in her family`s swimming pool.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Well, it needn`t be said. The Casey Anthony case is very polarizing. I challenge any of you to visit my Twitter page, and you`ll see the kind of commentary I`ve received.
And we`ve received tons of comments from you via e-mail, Facebook and Twitter. Some of you, of course, do not agree with my take on the case. And I want to hear your thoughts and then I`ll offer some of mine.
So let`s begin with an e-mail.
Ann writes, "How can you blame Casey`s behavior on egregious parenting? Sociopaths are born, not created by parenting styles."
Well, first of all, the egregious parenting I was talking about was Casey`s parenting of Caylee. I think we can all agree it`s egregious. That`s the one thing we can all agree on. She lies; egregious parenting.
Now, you have a point though in terms of where sociopathy comes from. There is a debate that has it that it may be a largely genetically determined phenomenon.
In my world, I will tell you, most sociopaths I`ve dealt with have chronic severe trauma. That`s something we talked about tonight, in fact, that I keep looking for that evidence in this case. And we`ll see if we hear it or not.
We have Susan from Honolulu. She is on the line.
Susan, let`s go.
SUSAN, HONOLULU: Hi, Dr. Drew.
SUSAN: I feel that it`s just a shame that her parents didn`t get Casey the proper help she must have needed from childhood, and instead aggravated her illness with her upbringing. The entire family I believe is truly dysfunctional, and now with the reality of the death of the child, Caylee, they are all dealing with saving their own self.
PINSKY: Well, I don`t know if that`s true or not, if there is the kind of dysfunction that we speculate there might be. I have talked to folks who knew these folks back in Ohio, and apparently there was no evidence of dysfunction back then. So we really don`t know what has gone on here and whether Casey is ill and should be -- we should have a certain amount of sympathy for her, or if she`s a hardened, cold criminal who doesn`t have empathy.
We`re trying to figure that out. I`m trying to get my head around that. I have not seen evidence yet of illness. But maybe we`ll see some evidence as we go along.
We have another e-mail question. Maitland writes, "Why do you view most things through the prism of addiction and childhood trauma?"
I would say the primary reason is that we have just moved through a period, sociohistorically, the time in which I practice, in which these two things are exceedingly common. Exceedingly common.
And as a result, I`ve just been inundated with both addiction and childhood trauma issues. So when I hear the pattern that suggests yet again we have another case, naturally enough I conclude that it`s a reasonable -- just playing the probabilities, a reasonable place to start.
One more caller from Gladimir in Massachusetts.
GLADIMIR, MASSACHUSETTS: Dr. Drew, I know you`re talking a lot about Casey today, but I wanted to make a quick comment about Congressman Weiner.
I sort of feel bad for the guy. I think that Internet relationships is a form of communication that`s evolved so fast, that our society hasn`t had a chance to learn how to deal with it. And we`re seeing a lot of the consequences of that.
And I just wanted to know your thoughts on that.
PINSKY: I have just a second here, but to some extent I agree with you. Men and women are getting caught up in this things. It`s almost like having a crack pipe in their office or in their living room for some of these people. And it is sad. I will agree with you on that one.
Up next, a look at some crucial evidence that the jury has not yet seen. I need you to stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF KILLING DAUGHTER: I know that she`s alive. Whether you have a bucket load of evidence downstairs that contradicts that and says otherwise or all you have is speculation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have more than speculation.
CASEY ANTHONY: Has every tip and every lead followed up --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have more than speculation. We have a lot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Lies and lies and lies. We`re talking about also damning evidence that the jury has not yet heard. For example, the prosecution has not revealed that Caylee`s body was wrapped in a Winnie the Pooh blanket. It just gets muddling (ph) when you think about this, but jury has seen evidence that Caylee had the same Winnie the Pooh bedding at home. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: This is Caylee`s bed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was this Pooh theme repeated elsewhere in the room besides Caylee`s bed?
CINDY ANTHONY: Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you have Winnie the Pooh curtains?
CINDY ANTHONY: Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sheets?
CINDY ANTHONY: Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Baby blankets?
CINDY ANTHONY: Yes, ma`am.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It`s getting harder and harder to watch Cindy go through that. We have to see that again and again. Back with us is criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh, also Judge Alex Ferrer, host of "Judge Alex" and joining me is former detective, Stacey Dittrich. Now, Stacey, the fact that this body was wrapped in a Winnie the Pooh blanket, I mean, that`s not a random fact that some killer would just reach for a Winnie the Pooh blanket to dispose of a body. It must be damning for the defense, yes?
STACEY DITTRICH, LAW ENFORCEMENT MEDIA CONSULTANT: Definitely. And keep in mind, when the law enforcement officers served a search warrant, they also took photographs of everything inside that house, so the jury is going to be able to see this Winnie the Pooh bedroom suite and be able to compare it to the Winnie the Pooh blanket. And, you know, I just don`t know where the defense is going with any of this including, you know, questioning the CSI tech today. I`m not quite sure whether their strategy is here.
PINSKY: And for those of you watching, Stacey is joining us on Skype. And the other thing about this particular finding is it`s emotionally -- it pulls on you emotionally. You know what I mean? It certainly doesn`t create more sympathy for Casey.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No question, but the whole defense theory is premised upon the fact that it wasn`t her who disposed the body, but George. That George did all this. So, what does the Winnie the Pooh sheets mean? George got the sheets. Don`t kill the messenger. That`s what they`re saying.
PINSKY: Oh, boy. Now, listen to this, the wooded area where Caylee - - OK, Alex, hold on a second. I want you to listen to this. The wooded area where Caylee`s body was found, apparently, was familiar to Casey. Casey`s friend claims they had actually a name for that area called the zone, and they hung out there with friends. Casey allegedly once buried her pet hamster there, and listen to this, with a heart sticker on it.
The kids in the neighborhood referred to the wooded area as a, quote, "pet cemetery." Alex, you had something to say about this? I mean, this is, you know, it`s not the average killer that puts a heart on a body before they dispose of it.
JUDGE ALEX FERRER, HOST, "JUDGE ALEX": Absolutely not. Mark is right. That the Winnie the Pooh blanket is going to dovetail with the defense`s argument that the child drowned, that Caylee drowned, and that George found the body, and disposed of it. The problem is that nothing of that defense makes sense. You`re asking the jury to believe that George, who`s a seasoned police officer, a former police officer, who knows that accidents happen and that his daughter is not going to get prosecuted because Caylee drowned in a pool.
It`s a tragic accident. That aside, that he loves Casey so much that he actually took his granddaughter`s body and threw it out like a piece of garbage, right? But, when the police find the body and wrongfully accuse Casey of murder, and he knows she didn`t murder anybody, the child drowned, George who loves his daughter that much doesn`t come forward and say, guys, it was an accident, she was found in the pool, I found the body, we should have turned it over.
I wanted to protect -- no, he`d rather sit back and watch his daughter he loves so much go to the death chamber. Makes no sense, and the jury will never buy that.
PINSKY: Totally makes sense, Alex. And Stacey, I want to turn to you at this point. You know, you must have investigated -- the unfortunate thing about this case is it reminds us that adults do horrible things to children all the time. This is the part that I get nauseated when these words come out of my mouth, but isn`t the fact that they didn`t come forward with this one what is unusual?
DITTRICH: The fact that they didn`t come forward, and I can`t tell you how many accidents involving children that resulted in their death where the parents are -- the first thing they do is frantically pick up the phone and call law enforcement. They`re not thinking of repercussions that I left the gate to the pool open, I did this, I did that. They`re not thinking of that. They`re thinking of their child, you know?
And a lot of them, even though the child is clearly deceased, they`re still holding out hope that once they see that ambulance roll up, that they`re going to be able to work miracles and revive that child. And so her story, you can poke a gazillion holes through it and nothing she says will ever come to fruition because the bottom line is this. Any parent that loses a child in an accident, the first thing they`re going to do is call law enforcement, and they`re still going to hold out hope that potentially --
PINSKY: That`s right.
DITTRICH: That she could be saved.
PINSKY: That`s right, Stacey. And that`s the first thing. Now, the last thing that a parent would do, and this is the part that also is so -- makes Casey so -- I don`t have a strong enough word, difficult to like, as you say. There`s party pictures of Casey. Check these out. These pictures were taken while Caylee was missing, and Casey still had not notified the police. Alex, Mark, I mean, this stuff, I mean, how is he going to defend against that?
EIGLARSH: The party pictures to me are the absolute worse. Now, the defense is saying that because her father did what he did by putting his most private of body parts into her mouth every day and sending her to school that somehow that explains it. now, you, I got to call you out on this.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
EIGLARSH: You have said they haven`t alleged their chronic abuse that would cause her -- how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop? How many times does a father have to put his you know what in you know where before she starts acting wacky assuming it to be true?
PINSKY: Wacky is one thing, problematic, mental health issues, interpersonal problems, for sure, but the kind of profound lying we`re seeing here, the chronic lifestyle issues --
EIGLARSH: How many times? How many times the father have -- assuming it to be true. I`m not saying it`s true.
PINSKY: I understand what you`re saying, and I appreciate the question. There`s no number. And you`re right. In the courtroom, that would hold up as, hey, it just happened once, that`s enough.
EIGLARSH: Right. Well, in reality --
PINSKY: In reality, when I see it, it usually ends up being chronic, recurrent over years to create the kinds of stuff that we`re seeing from Casey.
EIGLARSH: They never put a number on it or time period.
PINSKY: Maybe we`ll hear more. Alex, last word for you. I`ve got about 20 seconds.
FERRER: OK. And also you have the tapes of her talking to her father alone and also with Cindy Anthony there saying repeatedly over and over again, I love you so much. You`re the best father anybody could have. You`re the best grandfather and leaving Caylee, her daughter, in the hands of him as a baby-sitter, the guy who supposedly abused her. The jury is not going to buy this.
PINSKY: It doesn`t make sense. All right. It`s not all ending up --
PINSKY: Thank you. And Mark, thank you. Thank you, Stacey. Thank you, Alex.
Coming up, more about lying. What makes a good liar? Now, we know Casey Anthony seems to have cracked that code, but elected officials seem to be just about as good. We certainly hear a lot about elected officials lying these days. We`re going to talk about Congressman Anthony Weiner`s alleged PR advice for a porn star and more Casey Anthony when we get back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ANTHONY WEINER, (D) NEW YORK: I engaged in inappropriate online conversations with people that included, you know, photographs, and it was a mistake to do that, but I didn`t -- I don`t believe that I did anything that violates any law or any rule.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Everyone is certainly aware about this, but I think, actor, Jason Alexander, tweeted it best. Just a few hours ago, he tweeted the following, quote, "Between Casey Anthony and Representative Weiner, I have exhausted my entire`s month supply of holy s**s." Yes, that`s about right. Now, Representative Anthony Weiner confessed yesterday to sexting lewd photos of himself to at least six women.
Now, is that a number that`s going to continue to climb a la Tiger Woods when the women come out of the Woods? Or is it that these lies and it`s always the case with these public officials, that the web of lies that they use to try to cover it all up that ends up bringing them down? Watch this.
WEINER: This seems like it was a prank to make fun of my name, you know, when you`re named Weiner that happens a lot.
I`m not convinced that there`s any value of me talking about it. I understand you got to do your job, and I`m going to get back to work.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You said that you were hacked which is essentially a crime. So, why haven`t you asked the capitol police or any law enforcement to investigate?
WEINER: Look, this was a prank that I`ve now been talking about for a couple of days.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that a photograph of you?
WEINER: We`re trying to find out where that photograph came from. Whether a photograph was manipulated that was found in my account. Whether something was dropped into my account.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those who have said anything about having a friend caught up in a scandal of this nature is finding out "A," he`s packing jumbo heat, and "B" that he`s ripped.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He lied. For ten days. And only came clean today when additional photos like this were released.
WEINER: I`m deeply apologetic first and foremost to my wife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think Congressman Weiner learned his lesson. Oh. You see him leaving the press conference -- look at the car he drives. Look, curiously, look at this. You see right there. Right there. There`s a dead giveaway.
PINSKY: Congressman Weiner, not the Oscar Meyer Weiner, has been married less than a year. It`s really very sad. And his wife is an aide to Hillary Clinton. Weiner was a rising son of the Democratic Party. Now, he`s its falling star. It`s obvious that this is a troubled guy. We`re going to talk about it.
Please welcome senior executive editor of "Star" magazine, Dylan Howard and Gayle Haggard, she stayed with her husband, Ted Haggard, after the well known preacher was caught up in a major cheating scandal. She`s also the author of the book "Why I Stayed." Now, Dylan, you have breaking news about the over 200 text messages. Tell us about that.
DYLAN HOWARD, SENIOR EXECUTIVE EDITOR, STAR MAGAZINE: Well, Dr. Drew, just when you thought things couldn`t get worse, they have. This here is a transcript of more than 220 lewd messages that the representative sent to a 40-year-old blackjack dealer in Las Vegas, Lisa Wise (ph). And notably in here, 5 out of 15 occasions, he was on Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C. when he appeared to be texting this woman. We verified that through official Congress records.
PINSKY: Texting or Facebooking?
PINSKY: Sexting through Facebook. With pictures?
HOWARD: No, just --
PINSKY: Just language.
HOWARD: What`s more? We`ve also established that the most hated conversation occurred just two months after he married his wife, who, of course, is an aide to secretary of state --
PINSKY: What`s in there?
HOWARD: Well, I`m not going to say too much because it`s so graphic.
PINSKY: Why? Really?
HOWARD: I mean, he`s talking about going to Las Vegas to bed her. He`s making plans to do that.
PINSKY: While he`s a married man?
HOWARD: While he`s a married man. He`s talking about the size of his appendage. He`s asking her to send him lewd photos so that he can masturbate to them. This is graphic stuff, something that I don`t think anyone has ever seen.
PINSKY: Have you verified this? Is it substantiated in some way?
HOWARD: These messages were supplied to us by Lisa Wise (ph). That`s been one of the big questions swirling around today is how did this information come out? Well, the woman may be saying today that she`s embarrassed by her actions.
PINSKY: I`m reminded to say HLN, itself, has not independently verified this. So, we`re taking your word for what you have here, but something just came across the wire where she is reported that all of this is ruining her life. She`s not just embarrassed.
HOWARD: She`s said that, but let`s face it. This is a fax from her that was sent on five at 5:10 a.m. to our office when she sent through the messages to us to report these details. She wanted this exposed.
HOWARD: She actually wanted to come forward. She claims she`s a devout Democrat. She believes that Congressman Weiner is a good representative for his constituents, but at the same time, she said that he had to be held to account because he was lying, and she knew that he was lying because she believed that she could have been the intended recipient of that twitpic because she`d been engaging in this nine-month sexual liaison with him online.
PINSKY: All right. Meagan Broussard is one of the women he texted or sexted. She spoke earlier on ABC news. Let`s watch some of that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did he say?
MEAGAN BROUSSARD, EXCHANGED MESSAGES WITH REP. WEINER: Just asking about texts, that sort of thing. I mean, just joking back and forth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How often did you talk?
BROUSSARD: We talk -- I mean, he would instant message me every day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How personal did it get?
BROUSSARD: With me? Not very personal. Him, he`s very personal with his own business. He was eager to hear about if I wanted him or thought he was attractive or that sort of thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Anybody else getting sad? This whole thing officially is sad in my mind. TMZ reports Weiner actually reached out to a porn star he was in contact with and offered her PR help. He allegedly told an adult film star named Ginger Lee, quote, "The key is to have a short thought out statement that tackles the top line questions." He even gave her an example of what to say. He allegedly wrote to tell them, quote, "This is silly."
Like so many others, I follow Representative Weiner on Twitter. I don`t know him. TMZ says he then offered to have one of his PR people help her if need be. Gayle, I mean, this whole show today, I`m sort of incredulity and sadness and I don`t want to quite use the word disgust yet because it`s -- I`m just above disgust. It`s sad, is it not, Gayle? And what do you think this man needs to do?
GAYLE HAGGARD, SCANDAL SURVIVOR: Well, of course, it`s very sad. It`s horrific what he has done. However, you, Dr. Drew, know better than most of us what is going on in our society with the social media and all the activities on the internet and how many people are getting trapped into behaviors that they never dreamed that they would be involved in. And I think what needs to be brought into the discussion is a greater understanding of how the brain works, how people are getting trapped in this stuff so that we can begin finding solutions.
PINSKY: Well, I would say, Gayle, that, you know, the reason it`s so sad for me to watch this is I know this is part of illness, and I know this is somebody who`s, in order to get really caught up in this, you have to have a deep sense of emptiness and you`re really trying to stimulate an emotional life. And think about how desperate you have to need to be for attention to be sexting somebody thousands of miles away and saying, are you into me, are you into me?
I mean, that just -- I just -- now I`m disgusted. I get a little disgusted. It`s sad. But, you know, there is treatment for this. Gayle, can you address that a little bit because I know you`ve been through some awful things, but you`ve ended up in a very good place. I`ve seen many couples do that. We have less than a minute.
HAGGARD: Well, absolutely. And certainly, we don`t know the depth of his need or what drove him to do this. I think that has to be worked out in a therapist office, but I would encourage him to do that. And what I like to bring into the discussion is this is not the whole of the man. This is the most horrific part of him, and we have to remember that he has tried to do many wonderful things. We can`t forget that in the mix.
And for his wife, I would just want to encourage her to try to gain understanding as she`s making decisions as to how to respond, but I do know we have a society that`s promoting these kinds of behaviors in our media and then slapping people when they get involved in them and get trapped by them. And I think we need to look at the broader picture. We need to fight for our marriages.
We need to fight for our families. And it`s going to take coming up against this kind of stuff and understanding it and learning how to deal with it.
PINSKY: Thank you, Gayle. I totally agree with you. This is a marriage that could be saved and could be treated. Dylan, 10 seconds, any last words?
HOWARD: Is he dead man walking? It`s hard to see how he can survive this. Even both sides of the political aisle seem to abandon him.
PINSKY: He`s vulnerable.
HOWARD: He`s vulnerable. Will he survive? I can`t say that.
PINSKY: And for me, I would hope he would step down so he can focus on these issues and salvage his marriage. He may be able to come back someday, but right now, he`s so vulnerable. When we come back -- thank you, Dylan. Thank you, Gayle.
An eyewitness account, when we come back, from a man who spent his fourth day inside the Casey Anthony courtroom. He has strong opinions about this. You don`t want to miss it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: Dad, God, I can`t say this enough to you. You`ve done everything that you possibly can and you are the best father, and by far, the best grandfather that I`ve ever met. I`m going to say that, and I mean that with all my heart. Don`t, for a second, think otherwise because I won`t let you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOY BEHAR, HOST OF "JOY BEHAR SHOW": (INAUDIBLE) or whether he`s actually, you know, dumb like a fox.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is involved in training a single-purpose dog for human remains detection?
DEPUTY JASON FORGEY, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: First, I`m sorry, you have an introduction to the odor to see if the dog will be OK with the odor. You introduce the dog to the odor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Today, prosecutors maintained that a trained canine cadaver dog detected human remains around Casey Anthony`s car trunk, but the defense is already trying to float the argument that the cadaver dog`s hit was a false positive. The testimony is conflicted and compelling, and it seems to have us all hooked. We can`t seem to look away.
Speaking of that, joining me again is Brett Schulman. We met him last week when he became one of the very first people to sit on my little impromptu jury here. Welcome back, Brett. Now, quick question here is, do you see anything new on Casey in the courtroom that we can`t see here with the cameras or on her parents?
BRETT SCHULMAN, FREQUENT COURTROOM ATTENDEE: Yes, I can. As a matter of fact, I`ve been watching her very closely, and I can finally see for the first time in the entire trial, I can actually see some emotion from Casey, and she`s starting to catch on a little bit. It`s adding up. I`m just waiting for her to jump up and say, OK, I did it. I`m done. Haul me away.
PINSKY: Well, Brett, your mouth to God`s ears, but by catching on, do you mean that she`s sort of catching on to the fact that people want to see emotion, and it`s disingenuine or catching on that it`s OK to show emotion?
SCHULMAN: I think it`s basically in the final analysis. I think she`s showing a little bit of emotion because it`s really getting to her. I really believe that, because every single day that I`ve been watching her, it`s just getting deeper and deeper and deeper for her. And I think she`s really showing that, and it`s very obvious to me.
PINSKY: So, she`s getting a feeling of being overwhelmed or sort of - -
SCHULMAN: Overwhelmed. Yes.
PINSKY: Yes, I get it. Now, one more thing for you, I guess, you`ve become the official local Barney Fife. You`ve been deputized and you manage the crowds. So, isn`t that running of the bulls, I call it, in the morning when everyone rushes to the courtroom?
SCHULMAN: Yes, sir. It seems like everybody is getting there about 12 o`clock. I`ve been getting there about 3:00 a.m. And, obviously, as you`ve seen before by the film, that there`s so much chaos out there, it`s just absolutely crazy. So, I took it upon myself to start handing out numbers from one to 50, keeping everybody in line, and guess what? No more injuries. No more trampling. Everybody is good to go. And everybody is happy.
PINSKY: All right, Brett. Well, thank you for that report from inside the courtroom, and I think I`m going to start calling you Barney instead of Brett from now on if that`s OK just to show your deputy badge there Mr. Fife.
All right, now, again, today, we`ve been talking about stories that we can`t look away from, we are fascinated by, and, yet, they are very sad, and I, for one, am tired of the lying. It`s very difficult to hear lying from so many sources. Everybody, raise your kids with the notion of rigorous honesty. It`s important. It`s the very basis of the fabric of our relationships and our society.
Now, the cadaver dogs either did or did not smell Anthony`s -- death in Casey Anthony`s trunk. Chloroform, either were or were not caused by decomposing body. Is it hard science or junk? Conflicting testimony and mix that with a bag of lies from Casey, and we`ve got something that we just don`t even seem to be able to look away from.
Thank you for joining us. We`ll have more on this trial tomorrow.