Return to Transcripts main page


Witnesses Contradicting Each Other in Casey Anthony Trial

Aired June 7, 2011 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Tonight, Casey Anthony`s defense team talks trash. Jose Baez questions whether the garbage bag could be to blame for the so-called smell of death in Casey`s car trunk.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY`S ATTORNEY: You had no idea that later on this -- this trash would become a disputed item in this case?


BAEZ: So it was not your intention to intentionally destroy any type of evidence, was it, sir?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Baez goes on a fierce attack against the prosecution`s experts, accusing them of sloppy work, incompetence, and is he even accusing them of destroying evidence? Is Jose taking a page from O.J. Simpson`s infamous Dream Team?

Plus, Cindy and Casey`s disastrous mother-daughter dynamics. We`re diving deep into their catastrophic relationship.

And what about Casey`s body language? Does it signal innocence or guilt? We`re taking your calls.

ISSUES starts now.



CASEY ANTHONY, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER (via phone): My daughter`s been missing for the last 31 days.

GEORGE ANTHONY, FATHER OF CASEY: Hi, gorgeous, how you doing?

CASEY ANTHONY (on camera): I look like hell.

BAEZ: She could be 13 years old, have her father`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth, and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened.

CASEY ANTHONY: Good morning.

G. ANTHONY: Good morning, beautiful. I love you.

CASEY ANTHONY: I love you, too.

I am upset now. I`m completely upset. One, the media is going to have a fricking field day with this.

Laughter is one of those things that can get you out of whatever you`re feeling.

Can someone let me -- come on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When she told you she was in Jacksonville, what was your response?

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: I knew it was a lie.

CASEY ANTHONY: You want me to talk, then give me three seconds to say something.

I`m just as much of a victim as the rest of you.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tears, giggles, frustration, rage. Casey Anthony has been all over the map during this trial. Her extreme, unpredictable emotional outburst begged the question, what`s real? What`s fake? Is Casey acting to manipulate the jury?

A body language expert will analyze her behavior in just a moment. But, first, the prosecution scores a big win today with testimony that the cadaver dog hit on Casey`s car trunk. Here`s the dog handler in court, talking about the overwhelming stench as they approach.


DEPUTY JASON FORGEY, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: I asked the detective to open the driver`s door.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what was Gerus` response after the driver`s door was opened?

FORGEY: When the driver`s door was opened and we got -- we got to that part of the car, he dove into the car in between the driver`s seat and the back seat and jumped back in there, looking to the back seat trunk area. Trying to get back in that area.

LINDA DRANE BURDICK, PROSECUTOR: Would you say that, having had exposure to those training aids, that you`ve had an opportunity yourself to be able to detect the odor of human remains?

FORGEY: Yes, definitely, I can smell it. I smelled it clear as day.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Clear as day. How many is that? Six, seven people who smelled the stench of death, they say, coming from that car?

Meantime, whoa, fireworks over forensics exploding in court today. Jose Baez goes on the attack and rips holes into the prosecution`s evidence. Tonight, there is a real question: if Jose keeps exploiting prosecution blunders, will Casey -- could Casey walk out of that courtroom a free woman? It could happen, because it`s happened before. Remember, a certain defendant named O.J. Simpson?

One of the key pieces of evidence is the chloroform found in the trunk of Casey`s car. The prosecution believes Casey used chloroform to knock out and then murder her 2-year-old daughter, Caylee Anthony. Yesterday, it looked like the prosecution hit a home run with the testimony of Dr. Arpad Vass. Listen to this carefully.


DR. ARPAD VASS, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: The reason we progressed was because the chloroform was shockingly high, unusually high.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: But today a new witness for the prosecution seemed to contradict Dr. Vass. Listen to Jose Baez`s piercing cross-examination.


BAEZ: These levels, I guess, residue levels of chloroform that were found and tested are equal to what you might find in a common cleaning product, is it not, sir?

MICHAEL RICKENBACH, SCIENTIST: Yes. From my experience, those levels have been detected in substantives have that been used for cleaning process.

BAEZ: And it wasn`t the most chloroform you`d ever seen in 20 years, was it?

RICKENBACH: It was not the most chloroform I`ve seen in 20 years, no.

BAEZ: And it`s not what you would call shockingly high levels of chloroform, would it?

RICKENBACH: No, it`s not.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Whoa. OK. I`m hearing a contradiction there. Who has got the upper hand? Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.

Straight out to "In Session" correspondent Jean Casarez.

Jean, you`re there at the courthouse. What`s the buzz about two prosecution witnesses giving two completely different insights into the key piece of evidence in this case, chloroform?

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know what? I think many people are saying they`re conflicting. And the jury, that`s what we care about, right? You know, Jane, and they`re hardly writing any notes at all, and it`s confusing.

But, Jane, what Arpad Vass was talking about was the chemical composition of air. But this was today, it was fabric on the spare tire cover. So it`s apples and oranges in a sense.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, OK. I see what you`re saying. Now, let`s talk about the importance of chloroform. Prosecutors claim Casey used chloroform to essentially knock her daughter out before killing her.

One of Casey`s jail mates has gone on record, claiming Casey admitted her she used drugs to knock little Caylee unconscious so she could go out partying. Here is that inmate in her own words. Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She would pour it like on a rag, like a wash rag, and put it over the baby`s face so she`ll inhale it and that`s what would knock her out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did she say what she used to knock her out?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t pronounce it. Colifoam?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The word is "chloroform," lady. Now, she might not be able to pronounce chloroform, but this woman is claiming Casey used chloroform on little Caylee. We also know that somebody used Casey`s computer to Google all about chloroform: how to make it, also neck breaking. Huh, OK.

Now, Jeff Brown, you think this -- this jail mate would be a witness for the prosecution. Actually, this jail mate is on the defense witness list. I don`t get that.

JEFF BROWN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. I don`t get a lot of what Baez did. I don`t think his cross-examination is piercing either.

Chloroform is huge here. It`s on a computer. They can argue that it`s somebody other than Casey, but what`s it doing on a computer in March if this is supposedly an accidental drowning in June? I mean, that just doesn`t make sense. This whole defense, there`s huge gaps and holes in it that Baez has never explained. And I just don`t see him ever tying any of this up.

Who`s -- who are the witnesses that are going to tie all this up if it`s not Casey?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but nevertheless, you have to admit that he did score some points in showing inconsistencies in expert prosecution...

BROWN: But not with...


BROWN: But not with what jurors care about. And, you know, what we`re talking about here is, we have two experts. One is doing a chemical analysis, and the other one is talking about an odor. The very fact that there is even anything in this can in the air is shocking, because it should have been dissipated. It should have been gone a long time ago. Jurors get that. You know, we lawyers, we nitpick on things. But in the overall picture, jurors are going to come back, and they`re going to completely understand that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, maybe that`s why they`re not taking notes.

But let me go further in this chloroform. The chloroform found in Casey`s car is obviously key, because it could prove that it wasn`t an accident but rather premeditated murder.

Today, a prosecution witness admitted, as you just heard, that chloroform residue can come from everyday household products. Now, before cops actually got to Casey`s car, Casey`s mother, Cindy, did this. Check this out.


CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: So I went and got some Febreeze, and I sprayed the doll. Then I sprayed Febreeze all through the car, thinking that that might help the odor. I sprayed the front and back. I used pretty much a whole can of Febreeze.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Famous forensic specialist Dr. Bill Manion, could the high amounts of chloroform have come from Febreeze? There was also a drier sheet in the car.

DR. BILL MANION, FORENSIC SPECIALIST: I don`t believe it could come from Febreeze, but it can come from the pool solutions, like sodium hypochlorite and pool water could have chloroform in it. And this amount of chloroform that they`re detecting, using the most sensitive detection equipment -- gas chromotography, mass spectroscopy -- what does it mean?

I mean, there was some chloroform there, and I believe Lawyer Baez did say, could that come from the swimming pool water? Could it come from a bath towel? When we go swimming, we absorb some chloroform from our swimming pools. So I`m not -- I`m not sure what that means, having a little bit of chloroform in that trunk.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re saying -- Dr. -- Dr. Bill, let me go to Jean Casarez. He`s saying, Dr. Bill, that, "Hey, maybe the defense could argue that she died accidentally in the pool, as they have argued, and the chloroform came from the swimming pool." But I have not heard Jose Baez raise that suggestion, have you?

CASAREZ: No, no. The defense does not want the body in that trunk. They do not. They want the trash in the trunk to account for the smell, for the chemicals, for everything. And so that`s really critical as they`re pushing away.

But I think they made a lot of points today, because now the jury says, "Wow, Febreeze has chloroform in it."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, really? Wow. Leonard Padilla...

BROWN: That helps the prosecution.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, it does not. It does not help the prosecution.

BROWN: Yes. Because the reason she`s using this...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: She sprayed Febreeze all over the car.

BROWN: Why, though?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Because of...

BROWN: The odor.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Smelly, yes. We`ve heard...

BROWN: No, not just smelly. It`s the -- it`s the odor. That`s the truth.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: They smelled the stench of death. But...



BROWN: That`s why she`s using this, it`s because it`s not just an odor. It`s just not garbage. It`s the stench of death that everybody is saying, including the canines. That`s the main point.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, Leonard Padilla, weigh in here. Who do you think won today? Prosecution or defense?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, when you look at it from my perspective -- and I try to put myself in the jurors` chair -- I would say that the conflicting statements that Jose brought up regarding the one individual saying he`d heard that there was -- he had seen higher amounts of chloroform, and the other gentleman saying it was strikingly huge and all that.

Well, the jury sits there and looks at that. And at the end of the day -- at the end of the day, the jury is going to say, "Well, there was chloroform there."

Now, obviously Jose scored some points today because of his ability to zero in on the cross-examination. Now, Jose is still going to have to prove -- and which he doesn`t. He doesn`t have to, but he made statements that he`s going to have to back up. If he had not made his opening statement at the time and saved it for -- to make it when he presents his case, he`d have been better off.

But now the jury has got those statements he made in their mind, and they`re saying, OK, what`s he proving? What`s he proving?

Jose`s got an uphill climb.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, he does. I`m just saying, given what happened today in court, did they start chipping away at the prosecution? Remember, this is the prosecution`s case. It`s supposed to go swimmingly for the prosecution at this point. Prosecution witnesses aren`t supposed to contradict each other.

We`re just getting started. We`re taking your calls. We`re going to talk about the garbage. We`re going to talk about a mistake involving the cans today in court. So much more on the Casey Anthony murder trial.

And give us a holler. We`re talking about it.

We`re also going to talk about Cindy and Casey`s volatile relationship.

Plus, a body language expert is up next. And she`s going to really look at the body language of Casey and Cindy and George. We`re going to analyze it top to bottom.


BAEZ: You`re going to hear all kinds of interesting behavior from all parties. Not just Casey. And once you see some of this behavior, you`ll realize that the apple doesn`t fall very far from the tree. We are what we are because of who brought us into this world and how we were raised. Casey was raised to lie.




CASEY ANTHONY: Can someone let me -- come on.

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, hold on, sweetheart. Settle down.

CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody`s letting me speak. You want me to talk, give me three seconds to say something.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Casey Anthony`s trial turning into a huge, dramatic production. The jury is getting a front row-seat to the many, many emotions of Casey Anthony. Check it out.


CASEY ANTHONY: My daughter has been missing for the last 31 days.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Hi, gorgeous, how you doing?

CASEY ANTHONY (on camera): I look like hell.

BAEZ: She could be 13 years old, have her father`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth, and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened.

CASEY ANTHONY: Good morning.

G. ANTHONY: Good morning, beautiful. I love you.

CASEY ANTHONY: I love you, too.

I am upset now. I`m completely upset. One, the media is going to have a fricking field day with this.

Laughter is one of those things that can get you out of whatever you`re feeling.

Can someone let me -- come on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When she told you she was in Jacksonville, what was your response?

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: I knew it was a lie.

CASEY ANTHONY: You want me to talk, then give me three seconds to say something.

I`m just as much of a victim as the rest of you.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, you`re not. Casey`s emotions seemed to run the gamut. Tears, anger, giggles, faster than you can say "chloroform." She`s cried so many times since little Caylee was reported missing. It begs the question: when is she crying for real and when is she faking it? Remember the waterworks when Jose talked about her alleged abuse in the opening statement?


BAEZ: This child at 8 years old learned to lie immediately. She could be 13 years old, have her father`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mark Edgar Stevens, body language specialist, why do you think Casey was crying at that moment? Was she crying because the molestation was real or because she knew she was doing the ultimate betrayal of her father?

MARK EDGAR STEVENS, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: It really could have been both, Jane. It really could have been, because she just didn`t know how to react. Often, what Casey is doing when we look at her is she`s looking down for her feelings. That`s where we find her feelings.

And she`s often looking for "How should I feel in this moment"? So it`s really difficult to tell: is she crying for herself or is she crying for the betrayal of her father?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Casey Anthony, I believe, has really perfected the art of mugging for the camera. That`s what you`ve got to call it. She`s crying and fist waving.

But not all of Casey`s body language is in your face. What about her repeated head shaking? Just look at this. OK? She`s always shaking her head. I think we got it. There we go. Little head shaking. Anybody somebody says on the witness stand something she doesn`t like, a little head shaking there, Wendy Walsh. What`s that about?

WENDY WALSH: I see a lot of head shaking, and I think she`s smoldering with anger. I think she`s very angry that she doesn`t have a voice in this, because the one thing, Jane, that always gets her out are her lies, and now she can`t talk.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Mark? Ten seconds. What were you going to say?

EIGLARSH: Yes. Whenever we shake our head, we`re saying no to whatever is there. What Casey does is she actually will say one thing, and then she`ll do the opposite with her head. Which, if it comes to a case of believing the words or believing the body language, believe the body language.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Everybody, hang tight. We`re just getting started, examining Casey`s body language. It`s a piece of work.


CINDY ANTHONY: I need to find her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your daughter admitted that the baby is where?

CINDY ANTHONY: My daughter has been looking for her. I told you my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today but I can`t find my granddaughter and she just admitted to me that she`s been trying to find her herself. There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I will never forget, nor will you, the gut-wrenching testimony from Casey`s mom, Cindy. You see her, basically, breaking down on the stand, listening to her own infamous 911 calls. She seats so low in her seat it`s almost like she`s trying to hide behind the witness stand.

Wendy Walsh, psychiatrist, what was this body language about?

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHIATRIST: This body language was clearly a grandmother in anguish, reliving the tragedy of the moment when she realized that her granddaughter was definitely missing and maybe even dead. I mean, this -- on some levels she knows her daughter has been a liar her whole life. So now her daughter is saying she`s been looking for her for a month? I don`t think grandma buys it entirely.

Now, she`s listening to this whole tragic moment again.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: To me it was when she sank so low. Because she kept singing even lower than this, lower, lower. It was like, "I can`t face the world. I`m crushed. I just want to sink almost into the earth, because this is too much for me to handle.

Now, what about the body language from Casey`s dad, George? Why was George so totally stone faced when he was accused of sexually molesting Casey during the opening statements? Listen.


BAEZ: Her father came into her room and began to touch her inappropriately. And it escalated.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And then George takes the stand and denies ever molesting Casey. Let`s watch.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever sexually molested your daughter, Casey Anthony?

G. ANTHONY: No, sir.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mark, he looked down. What do you think?

EIGLARSH: I think he knew this question was coming. Otherwise, we would have seen a greater reaction from him. So obviously, he knew this piece of testimony was going to come up, and he was prepared for it.

He also knew that he was going to say no when he -- you know, said no. But what we do when we look down is, again, we`re looking for our feelings, but it`s also the place that we look down for whenever we`re hiding ourselves from shame.

You`ll see children do it. You`ll see this behavior in animals, which dogs. And obviously, there is some shame there. We don`t know what the truth of it really may be, but there`s definitely some shame and some remorse going on there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And, again, I think that Casey crying hysterically when those charges were made. I personally think it`s her going, "Wow, I`ve have really stuck the final knife in my dad`s back..

Cindy, Texas, you`re question or thought, ma`am? Off comment?

CALLER: Yes, to me her body language is just reinforcing the demeanor that she just displayed during the first 31 days before she ever -- before we ever knew Caylee was missing. If I had a daughter who died by accident and I`m on trial for my life, I would find nothing to be sitting there laughing and smiling about.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And Wendy Walks, she giggles sometimes. What`s that about?

WENDY WALSH: Yes, she`s really, really manic. She`s bouncing all over the place with her emotions. And I think the really doesn`t know her feelings. She doesn`t know what she`s feeling, so she`s just reacting.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Disassociated. No feelings? Disassociated. All right. More Casey.




JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: And this speculation is part of your testimony today?


BAEZ: Yes.

DEPUTY JASON FORGEY, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: I testified that my dog alerted the one day and then they scraped the area and then the dog did not alert the next day.

BAEZ: My question is, since you can`t pick -- since you don`t know one of the three, you`re speculating? You don`t know which one of the three it is? So that`s part of your testimony, is it not, sir?


FORGEY: And it`s an unknown factor to me, yes. That`s correct. It`s unknown.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: The case against Casey Anthony steam rolls on. The defense came out today with guns a-blazing. But the prosecution scored major points thanks to Orlando`s police canine unit. A cadaver dog name Gerus (ph) was put to work sniffing for remains and Casey`s car sent this highly-trained nose into total overdrive.


FORGEY: I asked the detective to open the driver`s door.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what was Gerus` response after the driver`s door was opened?

FORGEY: And when the driver`s door was opened and then we got to that part of the car, he dove into the car, in between the driver`s seat and the back seat and jumped back in there, looking to the back seat trunk area, trying to get back in that area.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would you say that having had exposure to those training aids that you`ve had an opportunity yourself to be able to detect the odor of human remains?

FORGEY: Yes, definitely. I can smell it. I smelled it clear as day.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: As you just heard, it wasn`t just the dog that smelled something in the trunk of that car, it was his handler. So now the count is at least six humans and one canine catching a whiff of the smell of death emanating from Casey`s car.

Michael Christian, you`re there at the trial -- senior field producer, "In Session" -- did the jury, do you think, find the dogs convincing or was Jose Baez able to distract with all the stuff we`re going to talk about in a second; accusing everybody who was testifying for the prosecution of incompetence.

MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, SENIOR FIELD PRODUCER, "IN SESSION": Well, you know, people love dogs, Jane. You know that.


CHRISTIAN: So I think just the fact that a dog was involved, people are paying attention. But yes, I think the jurors found this testimony credible. They weren`t taking a lot of notes; that`s normal for this jury. I did see one woman who never takes a note actually taking some notes. The people I observed taking the most notes were actually alternates who may never end up deliberating on this case.

But clearly, from my perspective in the balcony, yes, the jurors were paying a lot of attention.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Nicole, Connecticut -- you`ve been very patient -- your question or thought, Nicole.

NICOLE, CONNECTICUT (via telephone): Hi Jane. Thanks for taking my call.

I have a question. Until today, I didn`t think the defense had a leg to stand on with the drowning situation with Caylee. And (INAUDIBLE) with the canine officer sister testifying that the dog had hit in the backyard, if you think the defense is going to take that and run with it and say he alerted because the baby had drowned?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jeff Brown, yes, the dog alerted in the backyard but my understanding is it was towards that play area where they have a little playhouse for the child but not near the pool. Tell us.

JEFF BROWN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Exactly. It didn`t alert near the pool. You know the defense is that she drowned while you would think that the dog would alert somewhere by there and it didn`t. It alerted on the other side of the yard and a piece of grass.

And then there`s an explanation as to why the dog didn`t pick up that same alert the next day. It`s because they had scraped that area away. So this does not fit in with the defense case at all and you know, it`s just another layer here. You have six people, now you have a canine -- all detecting the odor and they are detecting the odor in the same part of the car.

I mean how do they get the dog to be a part of this conspiracy?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there was testimony or there has been some analysis that perhaps these dogs sort of take a cue from their handlers and if the handlers really want to find something and they want to please the handlers, they end up sort of doing what the handlers suggest and that was brought up in court.

Now, let me ask you this.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The defense I think did have a winning moment today. The prosecution made a big boo-boo yesterday. They entered the wrong death smell can into evidence. The witness failed to notice it was the wrong can. Jose Baez took that and used it to attack that prosecution witness. Check this out.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Morning, doctor.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I apologize for bringing you back here. I need to correct a mistake of mine from yesterday. IR for identification -- do you recognize that as the can that you were sent?

VASS: Yes. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yesterday you mistakenly admitted the wrong piece of evidence in this case.

VASS: Apparently, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this was after reading the label on the can that you were handed by Mr. Ashton?

VASS: Yes.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Famous forensic pathologist, Dr. Bill Manion, how big a mistake is this? How big of a blunder is this?

DR. BILL MANION, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, it`s sure a mistake I wouldn`t like to make it when I`m testifying in a homicide case because you act so confident saying, "Oh, yes, I recognize this. Of course, of course." And then the next day you look like a big dope, that you`re just going along with whatever the prosecution says. So I sure wouldn`t like to make a mistake like that.

I`m sure it`s easy to happen because there`s hundreds of pieces of evidence here. But they better slow down and be very careful. I think the attorney could have been more careful handing it to him and identifying it himself and in that way maybe prevent getting that error happening.

But I`ve been handed exhibits in court when I testify and normally they are labeled very carefully with a description on them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Dr. Bill, you`re making a good point.

Michael Christian, this is what I call an unforced error. It was a gift handed to the defense.

CHRISTIAN: Right. But Jeff Ashton, the prosecutor did handle it very well. I mean he made the point that it was his mistake which takes some of the onus off of Dr. Vass certainly. So they handled it as well as they could. They got it out there; they`ve got the right can in evidence now. Hopefully the jurors won`t make too much of it, at least from the prosecution point of view.

BROWN: And Jane -- Baez missed it, too. If he was alert and on his feet on cross-examination before the government realizes it, that`s the time to say, hey wait a second now. You just made a mistake and mistake is the name of the game here. He missed that as well.

The prosecution actually looks like they have all of the credibility because they are the ones coming back the next day saying, "Hey, guys, we made a mistake. I handed you the wrong can. They look identical." I think it`s a big point for the prosecution to look credible.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The crime scene investigator who processed the garbage from Casey`s trunk put it in a dry room -- standard procedure because when wet evidence comes in, they have to dry it to keep it from molding. So says he. But defense attorney Jose Baez took this and suggested the prosecution witness might have tainted the evidence by drying it out. Listen to this. Fascinating.


BAEZ: When you testified about your inventory and all of the things that were empty you were testifying to an inventory that you did subsequent to then coming out of the dryer and you had no idea that later on this trash would become a disputed item in the case?


BAEZ: So it was not your intention to essentially destroy any type of evidence, was it, sir?


BAEZ: But ultimately that`s kind of what happened? Correct?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. My big issue -- remember the line, garbage in, garbage out from that O.J. Simpson? Yes. It was repeated over and over by the defense during the trial and during closing arguments. When you can`t win on the merits of your defense case, what do you do? You claim the police evidence was sloppy, incompetent, unreliable; it worked for O.J.

Bounty hunter Leonard Padilla, could it work for Casey Anthony, this garbage in, garbage out, which they are clearly doing, taking a page from O.J.?

LEONRAD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Quite well. Because we have one thing that the state has already messed up on -- Casey and Cindy had a fight Sunday night the 15th. All Baez has to say is that after the fight she took off out of that house and the next day, the 16th she came back up and that`s when she saw her dad carrying the baby around, had drowned. That`s where the chloroform in the trunk of the car comes and all that stuff. I mean, after that it`s just one big confusion.

Jane, put yourself in a juror`s seat and you`re hearing Baez ask Cindy, didn`t you have a fight that night? Yes. What happened?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I have to say this. You make a very good point and this is just alleged. There has been published reports, Michael Christian, that there was a fight the night before the child vanished where Cindy lunged, allegedly, according to these published reports --


PADILLA: Physically.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- at Casey. Why didn`t the prosecution bring that up, Michael?

CHRISTIAN: You know, it may not be true in which case they are not going to bring it up. I know it has been published. But as you know, not everything you read is true. It may not be true.

It also maybe something they are saving. You know, they have called George Anthony a couple of times now. We think Lee may be coming back again tomorrow. It`s very likely that we`ll see Cindy on the stand again at some point. So it could be something in theory that we`ll be hearing about later but is it necessary yet?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I heard that --

PADILLA: Jane --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- go ahead.

PADILLA: Ok. Here`s another thing. Michelle, Kronk`s girlfriend, the meter reader that found the body, he says to his son and his ex-wife and his sister and relatives, November, right before Thanksgiving, he knows where the body is. Why haven`t they brought her in?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think that Roy Kronk is going to be a witness for the -- in other words, the whole attack on Roy Kronk is going to be part of the defense case.

PADILLA: That`s correct.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you raise a very good point. All we need is one juror to say reasonable doubt. That`s why this is so tricky. That`s why I never predict the outcome of criminal cases.

Stay right there. Fantastic panel.

Nancy Grace all over this story following all of the drama live from Orlando in just a couple of minutes. Stay with us. She`s just minutes away at the top of the hour.

Cindy and Casey collide. We`re exploring this very, very strange mother-daughter relationship. I want to hear from you about Cindy and Casey and Caylee -- their relationship. 1-877-JVM-SAYS; give me a holler.


CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Casey was on the floor crying and I overheard her tell Lee that Caylee had been gone for 31 days.




CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know what your involvement is, sweetheart. You`re not telling me where she`s at.

CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF MURDERING DAUGHTER: Because I don`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) know where she`s at. Are you kidding me?

BAEZ: Mrs. Anthony, is it fair to say you and Casey are very much alike?

CINDY ANTHONY: In many ways, yes.

You slandered me on TV. And you perjured yourself with this.

BAEZ: Did you raise Casey always to tell the truth?

CINDY ANTHONY: I thought I did. Yes I did. I tried.

BAEZ: It never occurred to you that these stories and these people that Casey was talking about were not real.


CASEY ANTHONY: My mom flat-out told me yesterday, she will never be able to forgive me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey told me she was crazy. I remember there was a time when she told that her mom had told her that she was an unfit mother.

CINDY ANTHONY: Who`s fault that you`re sitting in the jail? You`re blaming me that you`re sitting in the jail?

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t want to talk to you right now, forget it.

GEORGE ANTHONY, FATHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: This is destroying your mother. She hurts so much.

CINDY ANTHONY: This is my granddaughter.


CINDY ANTHONY: Yes. I`m extremely involved in this case. This is tearing me up every single day.

CASEY ANTHONY: I called to talk to my mother and it`s a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) waste.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m absolutely petrified. Absolutely petrified. I know my mom will never forgive me.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Many of the most electrifying moments in the courtroom have been when Cindy Anthony has been there and sometimes she`s not even saying a word.

Then there was the day she testified for the prosecution during the pre-trial hearing and didn`t even make eye contact with Casey as she left the stand. This has got to be hell for her, but is this also a dysfunctional mother-daughter dynamic?

Remember that infamous clip from the jailhouse video where Casey explodes in frustration? One thing nobody ever talks about is Cindy`s response to Casey`s behavior. It would seem to me that sometimes she`s trying to placate Casey who just responds with rage and more rage. Check it out.


CASEY ANTHONY: Can someone let me -- come on.

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, hold on, sweetheart. Settle down baby.

CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody is letting me speak. You want me to talk then --

CINDY ANTHONY: All right. I`ll listen.

CASEY ANTHONY: -- give me three seconds to say something.

CINDY ANTHONY: Ok. Go sweetheart.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not in control over any of this. I can`t even say anything to you guys besides telling you that I love you.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is the dynamic between Casey and Cindy seriously troubled? I would have to say I believe they`re enmeshed. In other words, there are no boundaries. Another way of putting it is they are co- dependent.

Cindy`s problem seemed to be Casey`s and Casey`s problem seemed to be Cindy`s. Cindy was, let`s face it, in denial about her daughter until six weeks ago when she learned, she says, that there was never a Zanny the nanny. Up until six weeks ago Cindy believed that there was a Zanny the nanny. When everybody in the world was saying basically that`s a joke, including her own brother.

All right. So we`re talking about family dynamics. I want to go to Wendy Walsh, psychologist. What would you say if I say my theory is that this family is enmeshed? They don`t know boundaries. They are co- dependent on each other and therefore there is a lot of enabling of Casey to sort of exhibit her worse self.

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: I agree with you. I mean, Jane they`re fused. I use the term "fused" instead of "enmeshed" where nobody can really remember whose problem is whose. So what you`ve got here -- but at the same time, they are each as individuals screaming, what about me, what about me? Nobody is paying attention to me. So it`s all about you`re putting your mother through this terribleness. Your mother is worried about her granddaughter and then there`s Casey, "Nobody is listening to me."

So while they`re all trying to get their needs met, the message is the overall need is that the family stays ok and intact but it`s falling apart. They lost a big piece, which is Caylee.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Maria, New Jersey, your question or thought, Maria?

MARIA, NEW JERSEY: Hi. Well, you were talking about family relationships with the mother and the daughter and I believe that they had a really, really good relationship. It just seems that they were overindulgent to her, they pampered and pouffed (ph) her. She was just the greatest little daughter in the whole block until the baby was born.

Once the baby was born, I think that Cindy`s eyes started opening up and seeing that her daughter wasn`t doing the right thing as a mother taught her daughter. I know she said she was a great mother and everything, but I don`t believe that that was so. I believe that she saw these things happening and Casey was --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I hear you. I hear you. And I think you`re making some points. Tomorrow here on ISSUES, you won`t believe who we are going to have on, Mackenzie Phillips.



CINDY ANTHONY: I have someone here that I need to be arrested in my home.

911 OPERATOR: Are they there right now?

CINDY ANTHONY: And I have a possible missing child.

911 OPERATOR: Ok. Who is the person that you need arrested?

CINDY ANTHONY: My daughter.

911 OPERATOR: For what?

CINDY ANTHONY: For stealing an auto.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Our hearts go out to Cindy, but she has been a mom who has been, I believe, in total denial about her daughter Casey.

For example, back when Casey was very pregnant for little Caylee they all went to a family wedding. Take a look at a photo I`ve got here to show you.

They go a family wedding. There is Casey. She`s visibly pregnant, visibly pregnant. And yet Cindy her mom doesn`t believe she`s pregnant, everybody is coming up what`s with your daughter. She`s pregnant. Cindy said well she would have to have sex to be pregnant. She`s not pregnant.

Leonard Padilla, you were there with the family. Did you see this dynamic of Cindy in denial about what her daughter was really up to?

PADILLA: Constantly. She first -- the first thing that Cindy tried to feed us was Jesse Grund kidnapped the child and all that. Understand, this is two months after the 15th of June -- two months. She`s trying to feed us this Jesse Grund thing.

Then a couple of days later she`s trying to get us into the Zenaida, the nanny thing. Constantly, constantly into this thing.

Things like the stain in the car, in the park -- at the smell s in the character. All of that stuff that we found out about within 48 hours of arriving, she never brought them up. She never discussed these things. It was always somebody had done something but it wasn`t her child that was guilty of it. It was always something else, somebody else. And she`s in constant denial of it.


PADILLA: And that`s what caused Casey to grow up the way she is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy, is that a sign of co-dependency when you`re in total denial about your child`s real behavior because you`re co-dependent on them?

WALSH: Exactly. I mean she idealizes her daughter and in the same sense her daughter sort of idealizes her. What`s interesting to me is that first she tells 911 it smells like there was a dead body in the car. And then she tries to cover up for her daughter by spraying this Febreze everywhere.

So we`re seeing this system of "I want my daughter arrested" to "Oh, no she couldn`t possibly" be pregnant or anything. So she vacillates between reality and then being in these places of deep denial or trying to protect her daughter.


PADILLA: It`s not uncommon.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And then you have -- yes, it`s not uncommon. But then you have to wonder did Cindy have sort divided loyalties because she had a very close relationship with Casey`s daughter, Caylee.

And in fact, we have some videos here to show you. It seems that all the videos we have, it`s quite often Cindy in the video. There`s -- we have on one side the second birthday party and there`s Cindy with the little baby. And then on the right you see the elderly gentleman, the great grandfather.

Again, where is Casey? So, there`s a co-dependency that extends to this little child and also a tug-of-war over who really has the power over this child -- Jeff Brown?

BROWN: That`s true. Bu you know, in doing this for over 20 years, Jane, I`ve yet to see parents that don`t come in and are in denial about their child, their son. You get it all the time. Nobody wants to believe that their children are anything but perfect.

What parent ever wants to believe their own daughter murdered their granddaughter? I mean that`s just tough for anyone to get pass. And I think that`s what we see with Cindy; that`s why Cindy is so compelling and credible. In front of us we are watching a mother having to deal with the death --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: More on the other side. Hang in.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Psychologist Wendy Walsh, we`re going to get to you in a second.

But tomorrow here on ISSUES, we`ve got Mackenzie Phillips. She says that she was molested by her famous father from the Mamas and the Papas. And she`s going to weigh in on the Casey Anthony case for us.

Wendy Walsh, what is the lesson of this trial for mothers and daughters?

WALSH: Autonomy. Let your child -- let them take a fall and skin their knees. Let them take responsible for their actions all the way through. Don`t cover their butts. Console them if they`re going through a hard time trying to take that responsibility. Kids need to take the fall sometimes along the way so they can learn personal responsibility.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think you`re right, the tough love came but it came too late. Her pattern was already set and she was emboldened to lie but my heart does go out the Cindy and George both. They were trying to do their best.

Thank you.

Nancy Grace up next.