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Computer Forensics Front and Center in Casey Anthony Trial
Aired June 8, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: All right. There are big stories tonight. We have some huge news about Representative Weiner. You will not believe it. I`m going to get to that in a second.
But first, we`re going to stay with the Casey Anthony trial. There`s so much going on tonight.
Computer forensics are front and center -- Web searches for chloroform. I`m going to ask, is there hard evidence on the hard drive?
And later, we`re going to get to a Weiner bombshell. "The New York Times" reports Representative Anthony Weiner`s wife is pregnant.
Now, cheating breaks hearts. How will it affect things if a baby is on board? Let`s go figure this out.
All right now. I know a lot of you have been watching Nancy`s great coverage of the Casey Anthony trial, the "Tot Mom." But I hope you will stay with me tonight, because I want to get into this further and look at things maybe from a different angle, learn something even more about this case.
I for one cannot get over Casey`s lying. And this is me talking. This is me, who deals in the world of addiction, where people lie to me every day. And even I am still stunned by the lying.
And I know a lot of you out there are moms, or have been moms, or dads. I mean, think about the fact that we`re all being lied to so much these days. Right?
I mean, we hear it from Representative Weiner now, who has lied for a couple of days. And now we hear from Casey Anthony, these stunning lies. Let`s pay attention to this stuff. Right?
When I`m working with addicts, the first thing I get them to do is to maintain rigorous honesty. Even though they have an illness that makes them lie, they still can, when they pay attention, attempt to be honest. You can be honest even when you`re sick.
But Casey`s defense team seems to be making excuses for her, excuses for her lying especially, saying she is ill because of sexual abuse. Now, it`s interesting.
It`s easy for me -- I was telling somebody this just a few minutes ago -- that as a doctor, to sit in with a patient, it`s easy for me to empathize with them and understand their lying, their illness makes them lie. But to stand back as a member of a society and to be lied to all the time, it`s funny. I have a completely different kind of feeling.
Let me challenge you with this. What if we had a concrete case of something that made somebody lie? Like, let`s say that Casey Anthony had a brain tumor, for sake of argument, pushing on a part of her brain that made it unable for her to contain impulses and caused her to engage in diabolical behavior? We had a concrete example of why it was happening. There`s a tumor there.
What would we do with that? Would it still be OK, or would we still be angry and sitting in judgment?
And as I feel right now, still outrage and wanting some sort of justice to be served, remember, for the young girl who really is who we are here to serve. There`s a child that`s lost her life.
I want you to think about this. Bottom line, pay attention to the truth.
Raise our kids to be honest, those of you that are parents. It makes a difference. Our society holds together based on your words. Please, think about it.
All right. Now let`s get on to the case. Let`s take a look at what happened in court today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Day 13 of testimony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cadaver dog searches --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was an area of interest that he kept going back to and sniffing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two alerts were by the two different dogs.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What police found on Casey`s laptop --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The "chloroform" keyword search hit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s Jose Baez`s best attack plan?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s going to say lots of people had access to this computer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anyone else can come use the computer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Zanny the nanny --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Google Web searches also referencing Zenaida Gonzalez.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is probably Cindy Anthony to find her daughter Casey and her granddaughter Caylee. But it also raises the question, was that Casey looking for a straw person and blame it on this fictional character?
PINSKY: Tonight, a computer forensic detective takes the stand in the Casey Anthony trial. She says someone searched the word "chloroform" on the Anthony computer.
Just make note of that. We`re going to talk about that later in the show today. I have some astonishing new evidence about the role that chloroform might have played in this case.
But that search was on the day that Casey was arrested. Someone searched the Internet for the name "Fernandez-Gonzalez," the last name Casey gave to her fictional nanny, Zanny the nanny.
Another expert testified the words "internal bleeding," "ruptured spleen," "death," "chest trauma," "inhalation" and "hand-to-hand combat" were also searched. The jury was shown videos and photos taken on Casey`s cell phone and camera.
Now, home video of Caylee with her great-grandfather was the last time anyone saw Caylee alive. I believe that`s the picture right there. It just -- your heart wants to burst when you see those pictures.
Let`s go to my guests. Criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh is with me in the studio, and host of "In Session" on truTV, Ryan Smith.
Ryan, give us the latest from the courtroom.
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: Well, the latest is this computer forensics witness, the owner of this software company, gave this stunning testimony this afternoon because he went through point by point everything that was found on Casey Anthony`s laptop. And as you mentioned some of them there, things like neck breaking, how to make chloroform, all of these things critical, because the prosecution is trying to build that bridge between the chloroform that was found in the trunk of Casey`s car and Casey Anthony.
See, right now, they don`t have a lot of hard evidence. But when you have her computer saying that someone on her computer searched for chloroform, and then you detect it in her trunk, according to some of their witnesses, not a good picture for the prosecution. Of course the defense is going to hammer home the point that anybody could have accessed that computer but, still, it built that link in the chain for the prosecution`s argument.
PINSKY: And Ryan, it seemed like yesterday we were starting to see some more emotion from Casey. Did that continue again today?
SMITH: You know, not a lot, because I think she was really transfixed most of the day on the screen that was right in front of her that showed her these e-mails. And she`s looking at each and every -- not e-mails, but Web searches. And she`s looking at each and every Web search as this guy brings it up and talks about how to make chloroform, neck breaking, all these things, and she is just literally stone-faced, as I think she was just really trying to listen to what was going on.
But I`ve got to tell you, this is very tough evidence for the defense to deal with at this point.
PINSKY: Thank you, Ryan.
Mark, tough evidence?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It can be. I think it cuts both ways.
The prosecution is going to argue, look, there were searches done months before the child went missing, clear evidence of premeditation. She died because of chloroform, she is doing chloroform searches.
The defense did a fairly nice job saying, wait a second, we do not know, first of all, who it was that was on the computer. That`s the first problem. And then, secondly, there were a lot of searches that had nothing to do with the facts of this case.
PINSKY: On that same day?
EIGLARSH: On the same day -- self-defense. I mean, when you go through the list, what does that have to do with anything?
PINSKY: It sounds like somebody that`s into ultimate fighting or something.
EIGLARSH: Yes. Or a guy doing a search. I don`t know.
PINSKY: It did seem like a guy doing a search, doesn`t it?
EIGLARSH: It`s only about reasonable doubt. Does the evidence support what she was searching? The chloroform, yes. So the prosecution`s got that. But these other things?
PINSKY: I think there`s been some evidence presented, however, though, that everyone was out of the house except her at the time. But it did make me wonder, could she have had one of her party friends around searching at the same time?
EIGLARSH: It`s possible. And keep this in mind -- it only takes one juror to start to speculate, to create reasonable doubt. If they can hang one juror up, and they can`t come to a unanimous verdict, that`s a victory for the defense.
PINSKY: To be not proven, as you said.
PINSKY: Not proven, yes.
Ryan, you got something to say there?
SMITH: Yes, that`s right. Dr. Drew, there was another piece of evidence that came in.
Apparently, her ex-boyfriend, Ricardo Morales, put a picture on his MySpace page that said something about how to drug a woman with chloroform, or how to use chloroform on somebody. And shortly after that posting, there was that evidence that came in about searches on Casey Anthony`s computer for chloroform.
So, a lot of people are speculating, hey, could it have been that Casey Anthony saw this MySpace posting off her then-boyfriend and then went to search about what chloroform is all about on her computer? So I think Mark brings up a good point. There are a lot of alternative explanations, and the defense in this case doesn`t have to prove anything. It`s the prosecution that has to make that case that there is that hard connection.
PINSKY: I understand the logic, and Mark is nodding his head. He would make that connection.
EIGLARSH: Ryan laid it out brilliantly. If there are other explanations for it, who gets the benefit of the doubt? The defendant does.
PINSKY: Let me -- speaking of benefit of the doubt -- put my hat on and say, I challenge everybody at home, how many of you are searching chloroform, just out of curiosity? How many of you are sniffing glue? How many of you are using other inhalants to get high?
I mean, that happens. Some of you, maybe. I don`t know.
But that`s not a usual thing to go -- first of all, it`s weird of the boyfriend to come up with that sort of as a funny idea. That`s not funny.
EIGLARSH: Dr. Drew, you`re doing something that you shouldn`t do. You`re letting -- one cop once told me, "Don`t ever let the truth get in the way of justice."
PINSKY: My insides twist every time you say that, Mark.
EIGLARSH: I know. It`s what they can prove. If there`s a reasonable hypothesis of innocence, if they can come through with that, or muddy the waters, it has to be not guilty.
PINSKY: All right, Mark. Fair enough.
Ryan, thank you so much. I`ve got to go right now, but thank you for that report.
Mark, we`ll be back with you as the show moves along here.
Inside Casey`s defense dream team. We`re going to talk to an attorney who is a consultant for Casey`s defense. She says she knew Casey was hiding something.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did the reference to Zenaida Fernandez- Gonzalez present itself in the temporary Internet files?
SANDRA OSBORNE, COMPUTER FORENSICS EXPERT: There were several searches out on the Internet done that I could tell.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you see any references anywhere on the computer to "Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzales" prior to the morning of July 16th of 2008?
OSBORNE: No, I did not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were you asked by Detective Yuri Melich to perform a keyword search for "chloroform"?
OSBORNE: Yes, I was. I input that word into, in case, spelled correctly and spelled incorrectly, and came up with keyword search hits for both.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Tonight, experts testify about photos and videos from Casey Anthony`s cell phone and incriminating searches on the Anthony home computer.
We`re going inside Casey`s defense team. With us still is Mark Eiglarsh. He is in the studio with me.
And now joining us attorney Jennifer Barringer. She is a consultant for Casey`s defense team.
Jennifer, you have said that you were upset that people are presuming Casey is guilty. Tell us about that.
JENNIFER BARRINGER, CONSULTANT FOR CASEY ANTHONY`S DEFENSE TEAM: Absolutely. I think, you know, in this country, we thrive on innocent until proven guilty. And what we`ve got here is we have all of the press and everyone saying that she`s guilty. And, of course, there are a lot of facts that just are missing in the state`s case.
They have gaping holes that they need to fill that they haven`t filled. And I know it`s a horrible, horrible crime, and it`s just a disaster, and it certainly creates a lot of upset feelings in a lot of people, but you can`t jump to conclusions like that. It`s never a good idea.
PINSKY: Well, Jennifer, I`m going to interrupt you and say I think you can understand why people might go down that path given what we do apparently know about the kind of parenting she was doing, the partying, the partying after the child went missing, the unbelievable web of lies. I mean, just stunning lies. Like, really like Academy Award-winning.
You can understand that people could at least fantasize that this might be a guilty person.
BARRINGER: Oh, absolutely. I think, you know, the shame of it is --
PINSKY: OK. Enough said. Enough said. Enough said.
So you understand why people go this way.
Now, do you have any evidence that can dissuade us from that? What is the case from your standpoint that makes it so outlandish that people would be judging her in the court of public opinion?
BARRINGER: Well, you have to remember, we`ve got two competing circumstantial stories here. When in doubt, you`re going to have -- the jury is going to need to find for the defense team.
And I don`t think that there`s anything more outrageous about the defense`s story that there was an accident that was covered up versus a previously very good mother spontaneously killed her child without any apparent motive. So I don`t think those two stories are in any way -- one is more bizarre than the other. If anything, I think it`s probably more likely.
PINSKY: All right. Let`s go to bizarre. Let`s go to bizarre and let`s talk about the sexual abuse issues.
I actually have spoken to George Anthony`s ex-wife. And do you know there`s an ex-wife? And she spoke to me this afternoon and she gave me permission to talk about the conversation.
And what she felt, she felt George was -- and this is her words -- that George himself has a lying problem, and she actually believes Casey did something, but that there`s some sort of genetic disturbance that George has that went through to Casey that made her sociopathic and a liar. That doesn`t make him a sexual abuser.
So what about that issue of her being sexual abused?
BARRINGER: Well, I mean, that`s the thing. As a defense attorney, in order to effectively defend someone, you have to find out -- especially when your client is lying as compulsively as this client was lying, you have to ask why? What is she covering up? Who is she covering up for?
And none of those things make sense until you find the answers to those questions. So, here we have the answer to the questions. And what Jose said was, you know, this is somebody who has not taken care of his daughter since she was 8, someone who molested his daughter, does not care about her welfare.
PINSKY: Well, OK. Hold on. Mark Eiglarsh has a question for you.
Go ahead, Mark.
EIGLARSH: Can I ask you something? Are they paying you to do this? Why are you here? I`m trying to understand your function.
PINSKY: Here on this show or --
EIGLARSH: No, no, no. She`s out there now. Did the defense put or out there and say try to change public opinion?
That`s the first question I have for you.
BARRINGER: Well, I think that public opinion is always -- recently that you`re guilty, and that somehow the defense has to prove that you`re innocent.
EIGLARSH: That wasn`t my question. That wasn`t my question. We`ll get to that.
BARRINGER: The last couple of cases I`ve had have seemed to be that way.
EIGLARSH: Jennifer, my question was -- you`re on this show. You`re a consultant did. They hire you to go out and try to change public opinion and get people to presume her to be innocent?
BARRINGER: Absolutely not. Absolutely not, no.
PINSKY: All right.
And so I am interested too. What motivated you to come out today to talk about this?
BARRINGER: Well, it -- like I said, it concerns me that people rush to judgment during the state`s case before they have heard the defense case, and I have been seeing this happen quite frequently. People may make judgments about people`s behavior afterwards, whether it doesn`t comport with what they think you should be behaving as.
PINSKY: All right. Jennifer --
EIGLARSH: I thoroughly disagree with her.
BARRINGER: These aren`t things that you should be doing.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
EIGLARSH: Let me just say, this is coming from a defense lawyer. I want all my clients to be presumed innocent in a court of law.
What makes this country great is our First Amendment. We have free speech. We can say whatever we feel about someone.
The presumption of innocence applies in a courtroom. We need 12 people to presume or believe that she is innocent and decide the case solely based on evidence. We have the right to look at whatever we want to look at and decide how we feel about her.
PINSKY: And as you said in the last -- you don`t care about innocence, which I`m almost vomiting when I say that. But there you go.
But, Jennifer, are we going to learn something from what the defense has to tell us that`s going to blow our minds, that`s going to, you know, change our attitudes? Again, at the opening of the show, I tried to make people think about, what if is she is severely ill? What if she is severely ill? But we still see these horrible lying, and this terrible parenting, and maybe an accident, whatever.
It`s still hard to excuse many of the behaviors. What is the defense -- not all my sexual abuse patients behave like this. What is the defense going to tell us?
BARRINGER: Absolutely. But, you know, just because she`s -- she`s clearly not mother of the year. This is a very difficult client to represent, because she does so many things that upsets so many people, especially the lying and all of those things.
But there is some things that I think Jose is going to bring out that he discussed in opening that will explain what happened. And I think something very interesting that happened today was that the dogs were showing up that there was a cadaver in the back yard. So why would the cadaver be in the back yard?
EIGLARSH: Jennifer, I`ve got to ask you about the defense theory?
BARRINGER: What`s that?
EIGLARSH: Jennifer, we`re all anxious to get the defense theory. So, George, a retired detective who knows that his daughter is not going to get prosecuted if this truly was an accident, somehow then takes the body -- I just want to understand the defense theory -- and then disposes it like a piece of garbage?
It wasn`t Casey, it was George. And then when they know, when he knows that the government is trying to kill his daughter, he still remains silent and pretends like he doesn`t know? Is that something that you truly believe?
BARRINGER: Well, you know, it`s irrelevant what I believe. What is important is that it is certainly plausible that somebody who molested their own daughter would maybe not be so concerned about her welfare. And when the heat got turned up, threw her under the bus.
PINSKY: Well, again, thank you, Jennifer. I really do appreciate you being here.
And Mark, thank you as well.
And it`s an interesting conversation. Again, we`re just trying to make sense of all of this. We`re trying to really get -- I`m trying to get to the truth.
I know the truth doesn`t matter to you, Mark, but it matters to me.
EIGLARSH: No, it matters in this arena.
PINSKY: Here it matters. It doesn`t matter in a courtroom, which I find bizarre.
EIGLARSH: It`s about whether it`s proven or not. That`s it.
PINSKY: OK. But again, I want to point out that I did speak to his ex-wife today, and I do thank her. And she had an interesting theory about a genetic potential which does exist. There is such a thing.
We`re going to keep this conversation going.
Up next, your calls and comments continue to pour in. I`m sharing them. And you can always reach us on Twitter, @DrDrewHLN.
Plus, there is still evidence the jury has not heard. Will it boost the defense`s theory that little Caylee drowned or will it doom Casey Anthony?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDA DRANE BURDICK, PROSECUTOR: Casey Anthony, Caylee`s mother, appeared to all outward observers a loving mother working hard to provide support for her daughter. That was the illusion.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAYLEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S DAUGHTER (singing): -- know dear how much I love you. Please don`t take my sunshine away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It`s hard to believe that is Caylee Anthony, that adorable little girl. That`s who this trial is really all about.
That`s why at least I, and I believe most of you, are so fired up, the tragic, senseless death of a child, perhaps at the hands of her mother, which just is mind-bending. That`s what I think.
What do you think?
Let`s go to the phones.
Diane from Tennessee, let`s go.
DIANE, TENNESSEE: Dr. Drew --
DIANE: -- I have noticed that Casey seems very flirtatious with her attorney at the times. But I want to ask this -- due to her narcissistic tendencies, do you think in some ways she is enjoying all the attention of the trial?
PINSKY: She does have a narcissistic quality about her, doesn`t she? And there is no doubt there is some secondary gain.
But the reality is there`s so much on the line here, as we saw yesterday, when the tears came flooding out, when the reality of it comes through. It ain`t fun for anybody, no matter how narcissistic they are.
Olga writes to me, "Can some people be addicted to conflict and drama? Casey looks upset if no one is worried about her."
And they`re not really addicted to drama, but it seems like they are. There are certain character constructs where they are constantly creating drama in their life. They are certainly drawn to drama, and they`re only comfortable in drama. People with something called borderline personality disorders tend to do this, but all of what we call the Cluster B personalities, the narcissists, the antisocials, sociopaths, all the stuff we have been speculating about Casey, those types do tend to like drama generally.
Let`s go back to the phones. We have Susan from Pennsylvania.
What`s up, Susan?
SUSAN, PENNSYLVANIA: Dr. Drew --
SUSAN: -- I wanted to know if you noticed the same thing as I have, how Casey always acts happy, cheerful, and flirty when the jury is not in the courtroom, and then how Casey`s stone face appears as soon as the jury enters? Is there anything to this?
PINSKY: I have noticed things like that from her. And that`s why I have been asking the defense attorneys particularly we`ve had here on the studio with us, is she being instructed to do this? Because it seems so deliberate and it seems so uncanny, you know, disconnected.
And yet, I don`t get the sense that she is truly disconnected, because sometimes I see that, too. I think that`s something she`s being coached to do.
Here`s another writer. This is somebody from Facebook. It`s Lerr. "I believe a sociopath can be created by spoiling a person and making them believe they don`t have to follow the same rules of society. Your thoughts?"
Well, you know, listen, spoiling kids and not getting them to understand that things have consequences, to feel insulated from the consequences of life, is a terrible parenting style. And, listen, make note, we all do it a little bit too much of this these days.
But to create a sociopath that way, it`s not really thought of as a learned behavior. In fact, there are many that would argue that it`s a genetic piece that really causes sociopathy.
I`m not convinced. I think there are environmental issues as well.
But interestingly, I did talk to George Anthony`s ex-wife today. You know, there`s an ex-wife. And she told me that she thought George had a lying gene. Not that he was a bad guy. She actually spoke very kindly about him, but he had a lying gene that he had transmitted to Casey.
Isn`t that an interesting theory? And I appreciate her talking to me and letting me speak about that.
Now, I want you all to remember you can "like us" on Facebook.com/drdrewhln.
Up next, we will hear from a fellow former inmate of Casey`s who claims Casey told her that she had been using chloroform on Caylee to sort of knock her out. You`ve got to see this.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Computer searches for "chloroform" on the Anthony family computer. Forensics experts testify today that someone researched that chemical just months before Caylee disappeared.
Plus, the last images that George and Cindy Anthony saw of their granddaughter alive.
My jury weighs in on what they witnessed today.
Later, friends and colleagues are deserting Congressman Anthony Weiner. This is serious stuff. I`ll tell you why I`m worried about his well-being.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): The prosecution established today that someone in the Anthony home was Googling the term "chloroform." Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BRADLEY, COMPUTER FORENSICS EXPERT: The search term is ampersand Q for query "how to make chloroform" spelled with an A.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. So, if I`m understanding you correctly, the user at the time had their Google search engine up, typed in "how to make chloroform"?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: What the jury did not hear, and what I want you all to remember at home, is an interview with Maya Derkovic. Now, Maya is a former inmate of Casey, a fellow inmate, who claimed that Casey told her, I guess, in jail that she was using chloroform to knock Caylee out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYA DERKOVIC, CASEY`S JAILHOUSE FRIEND: She would pour it on like a rag, like a wash rag, and put it over the baby`s face, so she`ll inhale it and that will knock her out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did she say what she used to knock her out?
DERKOVIC: I can`t pronounce it. Chlora -- foam.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Again, we can`t confirm that report, but that`s interesting, isn`t it? And even though it makes -- whoever is joining me next, criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh jump out of his skin.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Are you kidding me?
PINSKY: Hold on. We all have your day. We also have with us criminal profiler, Pat Brown. Pat, I`m going to start with you since I know what mark`s position is on that woman. How believable do you think that woman is?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: They like to make up crap just to get attention. So, I don`t think that`s a really strong thing for the prosecution to use. I`m much happier with the fact that she`s somebody at the home looking up chloroform, and what a co-incidence, the child ends up in a trunk with chloroform fumes around her. You know, what`s really interesting, Dr. Drew, is that when people plan crimes, they`re in the thinking stage.
This is before they`re actually planning a crime. They`re just ideating. Hmm, you know, I wonder about this, I wonder about that. Kind of like you`re thinking about a trip and you put it into your computer. You haven`t planned the trip yet, so you don`t really think of that as evidence. And then when you do decide to go ahead with something you forget, that you`ve already put all of those searches in and you really left a trail behind you.
PINSKY: Do you -- does she fit a profile of someone who was a premeditated killer? Or do you think, perhaps, as my old theory is, the chloroform was, you know, what she used to substitute for Xanax or something else and just things went too far?
BROWN: No, no. I absolutely believe this was a premeditated homicide. I think she gotten to the point where she wanted that child out of her life, just causing too much trouble, and she was sick of her mother interfering. She wanted Caylee gone. And I believe she strategically looked up how to do her in, especially with that duct tape. I believe she basically euthanized her child, like you`d take your dog to the vet and say, OK, put him down.
You know, got her child -- put the chloroform on her, child went out nice and quiet, then she just wrapped that tape around her. Child wasn`t breathing anymore, took her away.
PINSKY: All right. Listen, a self reveal here. When I hear Pat say that, I literally disassociate myself. I can`t get my head around that behavior. It`s just too gruesome even to think about, but --
BROWN: Even more psychopathic than you, is that it?
PINSKY: Well, I guess so, but one thing I want to remind people is, listen, I can be wrong. I`m happy to be wrong that my little theory about the Xanax and the chloroform is too kind and gentle a theory. I`m happy to be wrong and learn from my mistakes. I mean, --
BROWN: Something with that tape. What are you doing with that tape, though? Why is there duct tape around this child`s nose and her mouth?
PINSKY: Well, and then, why if you kill you kid in premeditated way, you then put a little heart sticker on it and then wrap her in Winnie the Pooh blankets and things? I mean, that`s --
BROWN: That`s how a psychopath, when she finishes with her job, says I`m not such a bad person. I`m now going to give her a nice little burial and treat her well. And then, she can justify what she has done and then go on her way, cleaning that --
PINSKY: Between you and Mark telling me the truth doesn`t matter, I`m nearly apoplectic, but let`s keep going here. In addition to the chloroform and neck breaking searches found on the Anthony home computer, what the jury has not heard are the other equally bizarre findings on the laptop. This is Casey`s laptop. Now, in July of 2008, police found a cartoon drawing of little girl staring at a teddy bear, hanging from (INAUDIBLE) under a tree. There it is.
Caption reads, why do people kill people who kill people to show people that to kill people is bad? Mark, do you make anything of that? I don`t think about things like that, about killing people and what are people going to do when I kill people. Is that what she`s thinking?
EIGLARSH: Just a coincidence. And let me just say this. If the prosecution is relying on that piece of evidence or we got to get back to that snitch, that woman, Maya, again, I was trying to read the tattoo on her neck. I think it said not worthy of belief. I`m not sure.
EIGLARSH: So, I couldn`t see for sure. But that`s a rat who`s willing to say anything to get her cheese. You do not put her on the stand. This case should not come down to that type of evidence.
PINSKY: So, you think if those sorts of evidence -- I have some other evidence. Here`s another piece the jury hasn`t seen yet. It concerns a picture of Casey with Caylee dressed in a pink T-shirt that said, quote, "Big trouble comes in small packages." The embroidered words shredded from the T-shirt were then found with the skeletal remains of Caylee. Now, apparently, the states attorney`s office in Florida, authorities revealed they believe Caylee was intentionally placed in the shirt because of what it said. Mark, if they start getting to that stuff --
EIGLARSH: The defense will salivate. You take away from the solid evidence that you have and you start to speculate and you let Jose Baez go off and say, what? This is what the prosecution is grasping at? Don`t do that. Don`t undermine this fillet mignon with fat on the end of the steak.
PINSKY: Pat, anything you make of that T-shirt. I`ve got just one minute left here.
BROWN: Yes. I`ve got the same thought on the cartoon and the T- shirt. You don`t want to put anything out there that somebody on the jury says, well, heck, I have that cartoon because I`m anti-duck (ph) family person. That little shirt, I bought that for my child. You don`t want to have them to relate to what Casey is doing to something that`s actually normal and thinking the prosecution is desperate. No, I would not bring that stuff up either.
PINSKY: Pat, one more thing for you because I only have this one second with Pat here is that people tend to behave in patterns. I mean, that`s why you`ve been practicing. It`s like medicine. You know, break through my denial. Tell me again. People behave like this. There are people out there that are psychopathic and do this and you`ve seen this.
BROWN: Absolutely. I mean, psychopaths do not care about other people. When those people get in their way, they get rid of them.
PINSKY: All right. Thank you, Pat. Thank you, Mark, again, of course.
Astonishing news being reported right now by "The New York Times" tonight. Congressman Anthony Weiner`s wife is pregnant. That adds a difficult twist to this entire story. I have grave concerns about where this story is going. Please, folks, keep in mind, there`s a human being at the end of this drama, and we`re going to talk about it after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ANTHONY WEINER, (D) NEW YORK: He`s entitled to his viewpoint. Careful.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you consider it?
WEINER: I`m not resigning, no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. I`ve been saying that we all need to kind of back down and give Anthony Weiner time to deal with these issues and repair his marriage, especially now that "The New York Times" is reporting that Weiner`s wife is pregnant. That just adds to the stakes here. Now, maybe, that`s why his wife has been so clear that she`s going to stand by her man.
In the midst of all of this, she, however, has flown off on business with her boss, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. I have really concerns for the man here, especially with this news coming from the "New York Times." This once powerful Washington player appears to be in freefall. Watch this.
WEINER: I`m not resigning, no.
WHOOPI GOLDBERG, HOST: His wife of less than a year, Huma Abedin, is sticking by Weiner. She`s sticking by her Weiner.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not here to defend Weiner.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you think?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s all I`m going to say.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What advice would you give him if he asked you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Call somebody else.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have a huge staff.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s one of the biggest in all of New York.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Weiner has a problem.
DONALD TRUMP, ENTREPRENEUR: Anthony Weiner is a bad guy. He`s a psycho.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the photos Congressman Weiner apparently forgot to wear his shirt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did this picture come to be sent?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He just sent that one day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what did you think when you got this?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was like wow, because I could see the background. I mean, anybody can zoom in to that. It`s not that hard.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the background, pictures of Weiner`s wife and President Clinton.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I knew he`d have something to do with it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks, guys. I appreciate your patience.
PINSKY: Well, I particularly appreciate Donald Trump`s very sophisticated psychological analysis there. Very good. Well, speaking of a psychologist, joining me now is Michelle Golland. She is a clinical psychologist who works with couples in distress. Also with me by satellite is Steve Santagati who says, takes the position all men are not designed to biologically be with just one female.
Steve, the baby news coming from "The New York Times," does this add anything to your feelings about this case?
STEVE SANTAGATI, "THE MANUAL.A TRUE BAD BOY EXPLAINS": No, Dr. Drew, because anybody can have a baby. It doesn`t mean you`re in love. He had sex with his wife. Maybe they wanted to have a child, but they probably shouldn`t because they`re both too busy to actually raise a child effectively anyway. But, no. Like I said to Cameron earlier today, the number one thing in a man`s bio-behavioral imperatives is sex.
It will control him more than anything else in his psyche. And so, this guy who`s screaming, shame, shame, shame, on the House floor, is the same guy now that needs to point that finger back at himself. I mean, come on. He shouldn`t be getting caught doing this stuff. That`s the big problem.
PINSKY: Well, right. So, you`re saying, it`s OK to do it, just don`t get caught. But Steve, what about your position --
SANTAGATI: It`s stupid. I mean --
PINSKY: Go ahead.
SANTAGATI: We are -- listen, if you look at nature, Dr. Drew, we as human beings, we have -- the only thing that separates us from animals really, and you know this, is the frontal lobe of our brain which is simply a filter to tell us not to do certain things, but the bottom line is our foundation as man, we are programmed to want to mate with as many females as possible. That`s millions of theories of evolution. That`s not my theory. That`s just the way it is.
So, when you get a guy like Weiner, and all of a sudden now, he`s got power and girls are saying, oh, I`m attracted to him, and he has very unnatural technology that exposes him to thousands of millions of women possibly, he can take access to that. He`s, basically, all he is doing is acting on his natural instinct. That`s it. It`s that simple.
PINSKY: All right. Hold on. I`ll have my response to that in just a second, Steve. Michelle, your response?
MICHELLE GOLLAND, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I have to say, one of the things that I think is so interesting in his point of view is that`s right, we all have natural instincts, right?
GOLLAND: But it`s the babies of the world, actually, infants that need instant gratification.
GOLLAND: They are the ones. Our frontal cortex is actually the one part of our brain that helps us regulate emotion, too, and understand consequences for one`s behavior.
GOLLAND: And so, to me, his position is just simply a very infantile position.
PINSKY: Steve, you`re a little boy.
SANTAGATI: Are you kidding me? Let me tell you something. Why don`t you study people like Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan where a book called "The Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors," and you`ll see that it`s the foundation. Just as a women (ph), listen, ladies, try to stop wanting an alpha male, try to stop not wanting a strong guy, you are programmed to want the best, strongest man you can get with. That`s just science. That`s nature.
This is nothing we can fight against. It`s who we are as animals. We all put on these suits and this air conditioning, et cetera, et cetera, but at the foundation of all of us, we are animals, and we will respond to what nature tells us to do.
PINSKY: Hold on, Steve. She`s going to interrupt. Go ahead.
GOLLAND: I have to say that the thing, Dr. Drew, is what I believe that couples are for each other is that we actually if we are partnered with someone who is willing to do the emotional work with us, meaning willing to be committed and willing to go through the conflict, if that means also birth and traumas, good and bad traumas, we actually can become our better selves through our marriages. That`s what I do.
PINSKY: OK. So, you`re interested in having a stable, monogamous relationship as being healthy and better. Steve --
GOLLAND: So as my husband of 20 years, by the way. He is a very alpha male.
PINSKY: Steve, let me address it. You, I believe, are talking about the behavior of young men who are under the influence of a drug called testosterone. I get that. Young guys need to get that crap out of their system early so when the levels start falling, and they`re not under the influence of that drug so profoundly, they can do something healthier, which is form an intimate, stable, monogamous relationship that sustains over time that`s healthy for children so they can raise kids in that environment.
Every measure of male health shows that men are better off in a stable, monogamous relationship. Every measure for children shows that they`re better with a stable family, with a husband and wife are together and love one another.
SANTAGATI: For how many years?
PINSKY: It is possible. I`m here to tell you it`s possible.
GOLLAND: Me, too.
PINSKY: I`m not sure I could have done it at 23. I don`t think I could when testosterone was making me crazy. I understand that biology.
GOLLAND: I have to say, but you`re also missing is that women cheat as well. To me, cheating is about the inability to control one`s impulses.
GOLLAND: And the need for instant gratification.
PINSKY: Well, and that`s where the addictive piece gets in. Steve, one other thing here. Now, I think that cheating is whenever you`re engaged in a behavior that if your partner walked in the room and saw you doing it, he or she would not like it. It would harm them. It would hurt them. That`s -- everybody think that way. When you`re doing something, imagine your wife or husband watching you do it. See how -- think how they would feel.
SANTAGATI: That`s a good policy.
PINSKY: OK, good. Do you think men and women differ in terms of their response to, say, online texting, online intimate conversation? Let me ask you. If your girlfriend or your wife is online chatting with some guy, does that bug you?
SANTAGATI: No. Not at all. And I`ll tell you why. Because first of all --
PINSKY: What if she`s sending pictures?
SANTAGATI: I`ll tell you why. Well, we might have an issue with that, but listen --
PINSKY: All right. So, the --
SANTAGATI: Women consider going to a strip bar, if their boyfriend or husband goes to a strip bar, women consider that cheating. Women consider emotional cheating --
GOLLAND: First of all, I absolutely disagree with you. I have to interrupt you, Steve.
SANTAGATI: Hold on. You can in a second. zipit.com. One second. One second. The bottom line is that it`s only cheating if there`s physical contact. That`s how I define it. I think flirting is healthy. I think we shouldn`t take it too far.
GOLLAND: Steve, I feel like you`re really -- you have a tendency to lump an entire group or gender into these statements. And it`s very -- how do I say it? It`s very base. It`s very base level addressing these issues.
SANTAGATI: Men are base. We`re all the same. We`re all the same. First of all, this is a television show, not a documentary. I only have a certain, a finite amount of time, so I have to speak in generalities. That only makes common sense. The fact of the matter is, plumbers, politicians, carpenters or architects, we`re men first. That`s why Clinton did it. That`s why Schwarzenegger did it. I can go on. Tiger Woods --
PINSKY: I got to stop you, guys. I got to wrap this up and say, you`re right. Some men do do that all the time. Some men don`t develop the capacity -- hang on, Steve. There is a richer thing for men to achieve, and it is real, intimate conversation and connection with another person. And when you`re in a deeply committed, genuinely intimate connection with another person, it`s hard to do that to them. It is hard to -- even though you may still have those impulses, your frontal lobe will contain them.
Steve, thank you so much. Michelle, thank you so much as well. I do think Steve at an important point is that women do see intimate conversation on the internet as cheating. Men aren`t as prone to see that, sending pictures men see as cheating, touching men see as cheating.
Eyewitness account next from two women who`ve been inside the Casey Anthony courtroom. They have strong opinions about this case. They are part of my jury. And we`re going to be talking to them when we get back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I created two reports for, I believe, March 17th and March 21st.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And why were those dates filtered out?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those dates contained information relating to chloroform searches as well as other searches that were done on the internet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOY BEHAR, HOST OF "JOY BEHAR SHOW": Check out my show tonight, Drew. We`ve got more on the Casey Anthony case, including what investigators found when they searched Casey`s personal computer. Also, the very funny Ray Romano joins me. You don`t want to miss this one. It`s good.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDRA OSBORNE, COMPUTER FORENSICS EXPERT: When in case reported back to me that it found the word "chloroform," spelled correctly or not, I was able to look at the language surrounding that word, and I realized -- I recognized it immediately as an internet file.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: As we`ve been telling you, experts testified about internet searches on a computer at the Anthony`s home. Forensics found searches for the word "chloroform." The evidence is compelling, and it may be incriminating. So, let`s find out what my jury observers in the courtroom today thought. Joining us are Judy Irizarry and Belynda Christie who are friends. They`ve been following the case very closely. So, ladies, who wants to tell me who had a better day today, prosecutors or defense?
BELYNDA CHRISTIE, IN ANTHONY COURTROOM: Dr. Drew, I would say the prosecutors.
CHRISTIE: Actually, they had some detailed information that they pulled up on the searches that the analyst was looking at on the computer. That and then they also had --
PINSKY: Let me ask you something. I`m going to interrupt you and say, what is it about this case? I mean, Belynda, you were actually on the search team for Baby Caylee three years ago. Either of you tell me, what - - this is one thing I`ve been trying to wrap my head around the entire time I`ve been talking about this case, is why, particularly women, find this case so compelling. What is it?
CHRISTIE: I guess Casey just basically -- she looks like a normal, pretty young lady, but on the other hand, she just has so many different stories. And it has just grabbed the nation. And so --
PINSKY: Judy is the one on the right there, correct? Yes, Judy --
JUDY IRIZARRY, IN ANTHONY COURTROOM: Yes, yes. Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Judy. Watching Casey in the courtroom every day, do you get any feelings about her?
IRIZARRY: Well, yes. Let me tell you about my personal experience, Dr. Drew. I feel like it was a sense of reality, being in there. As the difference of being on TV, it was like a fiction. Being in there is like, wow, real things that are happening to real people. And I was able to connect with them in the sense of -- as the human beings. That when we cannot help ourselves, we have a God that can help us, that can forgive us.
He doesn`t condone our sins. Like He is not -- if Casey Anthony did that, He`s not happy about it, but He also loves her. And if she does confess and if she repents, God can save her. God can give her a brand-new life. It doesn`t matter.
PINSKY: Well, I`m not sure. I don`t know that she`s into getting -- the life she may get may not -- if she gets a life at all, may be life in prison, but thank you, ladies. Thank you, Judy and Belynda for joining us.
IRIZARRY: No, no, no. I agree.
PINSKY: Yes. Now, the prosecution is building a very methodical case against Casey. Listen. First, the strand of hair, then the canine cadaver dog detected a smell in the car, now we have the computer forensics with the searches and the word "chloroform." Will all these evidence prove that Casey killed her daughter? And please remember, it`s a little girl who we are seeking justice for here today. Think about her. That`s really what`s at the center of this case. See you next time.