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Did Casey Search "Death"?

Aired June 8, 2011 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Casey Anthony forensic files, a slew of damning details uncovered on the Anthony family computer made for an explosive day in court.

JOHN BRADLEY, COMPUTER FORENSICS EXPERT: Inhalation, death, self- defense. How to make chloroform.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Plus, TV star Mackenzie Phillips joins me live tonight to weight in on the Casey case. A self-proclaimed incest survivor who claims that her famous father had sex with her. Mackenzie gives her take on Casey`s claims that her father and brother sexually abused her. Does Mackenzie believe Casey is telling the truth or lying again? We`ll take your calls.

ISSUES starts now.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nine-one-one, what`s your emergency?

CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY: I found out my grandfather has been taken. She has been missing for a month.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, where`s Caylee? At least where`s her remains?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She couldn`t have found a key to the shed and wanted to know if she -- if I had a shovel she could borrow. I said, "Yes, I have a shovel that you can use."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He came back to that same area after making another lap of the yard and gave a final trained indication in one location in the back yard.

CINDY ANTHONY: I started yelling at Casey, "What -- what do you mean, she`s gone?"

CASEY ANTHONY, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER: My God, I know she`s still OK. I can feel it.

CINDY ANTHONY: I overheard her tell Lee that Caylee`s been gone for 31 days.

What do you want me to tell Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: That Mommy loves her very much.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m on Alder (ph) Lane down by the school, and I just found a human skull.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY`S ATTORNEY: She never was missing. Caylee Anthony died on June 16, 2008, when she drowned in her family`s swimming pool.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yet another explosive day in court in the Casey Anthony trial. Now we`ve learned that two cadaver dogs hit on the Anthony family dog. Did Casey try to bury her daughter there? Is that why she borrowed a shovel from a neighbor?

But late this afternoon, the prosecution delivered a flurry of potentially fatal jabs. A prosecution expert revealed someone using the Anthony family computer in March of 2008 plugged in a slew of highly incriminating search terms. Check this out.


BRADLEY: Inhalation, death, self-defense, hand to hand combat, head injuries, middle under score meningeal artery, ruptured spleen, chest trauma, and internal bleeding. How to make chloroform.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Then, Jose Baez, the defense attorney, got up to cross-examine the same witness. Did he tear this guy apart? Well, actually, the witness then proceeded to list more incriminating searches from the Anthony computer. Check this out.


BRADLEY: Chloroform habit, weapons made of household products. Neck breaking. There`s reference to the words "zombies are coming."


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Zombies are coming? Whoa. Why all the sinister searches just a couple of months before little Caylee vanished? And we now know why. Was Casey plotting her little daughter`s murder, trying to come up with an innocent storyline, like perhaps self-defense, one of the terms Googled? For example, "We were attacked and engaged in hand-to-hand combat," had Caylee died of internal injuries from chest trauma.

Right there, I have put together an explanation using some of the sinister words that were searched on the Anthonys` computer. What do you think? Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.

Straight out to "In Session`s" Jean Casarez, who has been in the courtroom in Orlando.

Jean, perhaps the most damming evidence revealed today, one site searched 84 times. Eighty-four times.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tell us what that Web site was about.

CASAREZ: That`s right. Well, prosecution says that that is chloroform searches, 84 times. The defense is saying, "Hun-huh. It was searched the site 84 times but chloroform only once."

But Jane, it was really something to hear this. The jury listened, took some notes. Chloroform, how to make chloroform. But so many searches centered around the neck and the head. Neck breaking, head injury, trauma to the head, but the defense countered with as strong a cross-exam as they could.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`ve got to say, this 84 -- 84 -- times, OK, that is a lot. Now, Midwin Charles, what innocent explanation could there be for searching? My understanding was that it was a site about chloroform that was searched 84 times. Now, Jean Casarez, you`re saying something different?

CASAREZ: Well, the defense is saying the site was searched at Sci Spot -- -- This was searched 84 times for very short periods of time but only once for chloroform.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But isn`t the site about chloroform?

CASAREZ: I can`t confirm that. I haven`t looked on that site.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, this is part of a problem. And in fact, why don`t we go to -- we have this sound bite, actually. OK. Now you`re going to hear a little technical mumbo-jumbo. It`s called insert tooth (ph). Let`s check out this sound bite. OK? Because this is very important. You can decide for yourself what the heck they were saying. What possible innocent explanation could there be for this jaw-dropping revelation, about the number of times, 84, something happened? You decide for yourself what they`re saying. Listen.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (ph), chemistry/chloroform, how many times was that site visited?

BRADLEY: According to the history, 84 times.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Midwin Charles, you take a stab at the significance of that.

MIDWIN CHARLES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the thing is, I`d like to know what is the time frame within which these -- these visits were made 84 times? And who else had access to that computer? Remember, this was a home computer.

At least if I am the defense attorney on this case, that is how I am thinking. In order to get the jury to think perhaps someone else was visiting these sites, and it was not Casey Anthony. That is the only way you could explain it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jayne Weintraub, you`re a Florida criminal defense attorney. I know you`re very close to the defense. Jose Baez didn`t say, "Well, how do we know that it was Casey searching on that computer?" And perhaps one of the reasons why is that there`s testimony that these searches were done at the time that her father, George, and her mother, Cindy, were at work.

WEINTRAUB: Well, we don`t know where they were and according to whom. Because whoever was doing the searches isn`t going to get up there now and say, do you think George is going to get up there and say, "I admit I was doing it?" Of course not. It`s up to the state to prove who was doing the searches to tie it to the defendant that is charged with this crime.

No matter what you say, Jane, you`re two weeks into a murder trial without a medical examiner, without an eyewitness, without forensics matched to the charged defendant, and you don`t have any admissions. So meanwhile, they`re trying to get the death penalty with drama and dysfunction, and that`s not going to cut it in a court of law in America.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you can call it drama and dysfunction. I`m calling it my big issue, sinister searches.

Let`s listen, once again, to the prosecution. OK? Computer forensic expert lists the Internet searches done on the Anthony family computer in March of 2008. You decide. You hear the testimony.


BRADLEY: Inhalation, death, of body (ph) death, self-defense, hand- to-hand combat, head injuries, middle underscore meningeal artery, ruptured spleen, chest trauma, internal bleeding, how to make chloroform.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. If Casey was the searcher, I think, in my humble opinion, it would point to premeditation. OK? She`s searching this a couple of months before her daughter vanishes and we now know died. What about the timing of these searches in March of 2008?

I have to ask, could the pressure of leading a double life have gotten to her? Was she sick and tired of maintaining this charade that she worked at Universal Studios, getting dressed every day, pretending to go to a job she didn`t have, pretending to drop her child off at a nanny she didn`t have? Debra Opri, lies are a burden that can create stress. Does this go to premeditation?

DEBRA OPRI, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Yes, it does. When you have a computer search looking for these things, chloroform, forms of injury, you have to assume that someone who is interested in this wanted information.

This is just one step in this two-week trial so far. This is just one step towards the completion of a puzzle. And even though this attorney on your panel has said it doesn`t prove anything, well, I can assure you, this was a very, very big step today that was taken by the prosecution in moving towards the premeditation.

I am stuck at this point in time as to whether it was maybe a negligent homicide, an accident, or a planned cover up or just she wanted to get rid of her. But at this point in time, we`re not really there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Helen, Florida. Your question or thought, ma`am? Helen?

CALLER: OK. You know, with all the searches that were done and if it was done by Casey, is it possible that her anger towards her mother tempted her to find ways to maybe snuff her mother out, and then down the road poor Caylee was caught up in something, possibly an accident?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Jean Casarez, briefly, there was obviously mother-daughter friction.

CASAREZ: Yes, there was. We did not hear that. We didn`t even hear an opening statement to the motive of jealousy by Casey against her mother, who loved Caylee so much. But we have heard that in testimony. It seems like they`re trying to build that as motive. But as premeditation to kill her mother? Well, it`s interesting to think about, but there`s nothing alleged in that capacity.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I will say I`m going to give Jayne Weintraub and the defense something. I don`t know that the prosecution really laid out a very good story line in their opening that allows the jury to connect the dots when all this stuff comes down. I don`t know that they set the framework for them to put all this -- this evidence into a story line and connect the dots.

Hang tight, fantastic panel.

WEINTRAUB: Because they can`t. It`s just speculation.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Nancy Grace live from Orlando with all the latest developments. Nancy at the top of the hour on HLN. Now we`re taking your calls: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. Give me a shout-out. Your theories. The question: could the astonishing computer evidence search damage the defense`s entire case?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On Friday, March 21, 2008, between the hours of 2:16 and 2:28 p.m., Google searches were conducted for, quote, "how to make chloroform." Quote, "how to make chloroform" with a different spelling. Quote, "Self-defense." Quote, "household weapons." Quote, "neck breaking." Quote, "shovel."




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you indicate to the members of the jury where you got the trained final alert?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Basically in that area right there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What happens after you get the trained final alert?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I had put bones up. I spoke to Deputy Forgey, who indicated to me at that time that his dog had alerted in probably six to eight feet of where Bones` alert was.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Today in the Casey Anthony trial, we heard about a second cadaver dog that hit on human decomposition in the Anthony family backyard. There are now two dogs, Gerus and Bones, hit in the same general vicinity in front of little Caylee`s playhouse, within a few feet of each other.

Take a look at those two photos. That`s where the two different dogs, the cadaver dogs hit.

The neighbor`s already testified on June 18, two days after little Caylee vanished, Casey borrowed a shovel from him, even though Casey`s dad testified he had four shovels of his own. There are reports Casey she backed her car into the garage on June 17.

So Midwin Charles, defense, could the jury be trying to figure out, well, did she try to bury the child in the backyard but the dirt was too hard to dig up so she abandoned that plan and then put the body in the car to transport her to the woods, less than a mile away, where little Caylee`s body was eventually found?

CHARLES: I mean, they certainly could be thinking that, Jane. I mean, human decomposition is a very specific odor. It`s a very specific thing. It`s not as though there were chicken bones decomposing in that backyard.

And I think as a jury member, if I`m listening to that evidence and I hear that, that is pretty strong. Again, there are key details here that are not linking directly to Casey Anthony as the defendant. But once they start piling up evidence after evidence after evidence, it`s going to be very difficult for this jury to say, "We`re not sure that she did this."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Jayne Weintraub, two dogs hitting...

WEINTRAUB: Same thing. Same thing.


WEINTRAUB: I`m sorry.


WEINTRAUB: I was going to say, it`s the same thing, to add to what Mid was just saying, is yesterday we have Dr. Vass with shockingly high amounts of chloroform. The next expert that says very little chloroform, as a matter of fact, the same as in a cleaning material. There`s just too much stuff thrown on the wall...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, no, no. I`m asking you about these two dogs. Let`s show the photo again. Two dogs hitting in the same general area.

WEINTRAUB: It doesn`t connect to Casey, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What do you mean it doesn`t connect to Casey? There`s two dogs...

WEINTRAUB: Why do you say -- moved the body?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me say this, Jean. Jean, it`s her house. Jean Casarez...


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I was watching coverage that, well, maybe it was when little Caylee drowned in the family`s above-ground swimming pool and then George set the child down near the playhouse.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: What do you know about that, Jean?

CASAREZ: That can`t work. That can`t work. And I looked into it. Because it takes time for a body to decompose so the odors come out for the dog to hit. So it could have been placed there at the time of the drowning, but remember the shovel that Casey Anthony tried to get from the neighbor several days later? That`s where I think the prosecution is going to tie in that dog hit.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I -- I`ve got to say, when you try to dig something up, try to dig holes, OK, I`ve tried to do that, not to -- not for any sinister reasons, but once I had to do some -- what do you call it? I was getting water going into the...

WEINTRAUB: Gardening?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, it was a mold situation. And I couldn`t dig it. It was hard. It was like rocks. You think you can dig something...

OPRI: Can I jump in?

WEINTRAUB: It may be too hard for somebody Casey`s size.


OPRI: Can I jump in?


OPRI: Here`s what I have been looking for, and I`m not seeing it. The defense, in their opening statement, has a theory, a theme. But they should be waving that theme in every witness, the prosecution, like golden threads to plant their story and the story of every prosecution witness, as well as planting the seeds of doubt. I haven`t seen that.

I expected a question today on the computer expert. Is any of these things that were searched show that it was a perfect crime being searched? How to hide up a murder, how to commit murder? Any of these searches show you this? The question he gave, he said...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He said something like, do you have any information that these searches are connected to little Caylee`s disappearance?

Quickly, Jennifer, Colorado, your question or thought?

CALLER: Jane...


CALLER: ... thank you for taking my call. I -- you brought this up before. You`re the only one that brought this up, and I love this question.


CALLER: Casey tried to give, No. 1, her baby to a friend. And secondly, she wanted to adopt the baby, and Cindy refused her that choice. So from the get-go, she didn`t ever want the baby. And...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you raise a very important point, Jennifer, and we haven`t heard about that at trial. No reference to it whatsoever.

Stay right there.

Now, the defense team`s bombshell claims George Anthony sexually abused Casey when she was a child. We`re going to talk live with my very special guest, actress Mackenzie Phillips, who says she is an incest survivor, for her insights into the Casey Anthony case. That`s in just a couple of minutes. Stay with us.



BRADLEY: Chloroform habit, weapons that are household products, neck breaking. There`s reference to those words, zombies are coming.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, surprisingly dramatic testimony from a computer forensic expert who lists a slew of highly incriminating search terms entered into the Anthony family computer in March of 2008. I want to go out to Jean Casarez, correspondent for "In Session."

There was also testimony that there were attempts to delete some of these searches. What do you know about that?

CASAREZ: Yes. There was. And that`s why they couldn`t get all the information on some of them, just the header pages. But some were deleted, which is very interesting, because that was a conscious choice. You know prosecutors are going to use that because you don`t have to delete something.

Other searches, Jane, were book marked. And so in other words, you might want to go back to see them again.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Debra Opri, is that incriminating? Is that a guilt sign...

OPRI: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... if you`re trying to delete the search?

OPRI: Yes. When you`re trying to delete harmful information like chloroform and whatever other sites she was trying to delete in those searches, absolutely. It shows the murder; it shows the premeditation. But the question becomes the premeditation for what? To cover up an accident? Negligent homicide or an actual plan to murder a child? That`s where we`re still...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How can you cover up an accident that hasn`t even happened yet? These are searches being done in March, two months before...

OPRI: I`m just giving you a number of -- I`m just giving you a number of different options.

But the point here is the prosecution is doing their job. They are taking the steps to lay the foundation.


OPRI: I think there is premeditation. I think there`s going to be enough here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jayne Weintraub, you are close to the defense. Give me an innocent explanation for why anybody would Google these following words that were Googled on the Anthony family computer: death inhalation, self defense, hand-to-hand combat, head injuries, ruptured spleen, chest trauma, internal bleeding, weapons out of household products, neck breaking, and chloroform.

WEINTRAUB: It certainly wouldn`t be how to commit a murder, would it? I mean, let`s be honest. Nobody in their right -- nobody in their right mind would do that three months before killing a child like this. Nobody. Not Casey Anthony. Please, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Why? Why? What other reason would there be to search for head injuries, chest trauma, internal bleeding, weapons out of household products?

WEINTRAUB: Maybe somebody who was studying for a medical exam. Or a nursing test. Maybe it was somebody who was a police officer.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you`re saying that -- that George and Cindy searched those, because he used to be a cop and she`s a nurse? Midwin Charles...

WEINTRAUB: Maybe this, maybe not. That`s not evidence that you need in a court of law. That`s not truth.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Midwin, weigh in, please. Take it away.

CHARLES: Well, one of the -- one of the things that I think is missing here is the who. The searches are clear. We understand from the expert what words were searched. Are they damaging? Yes. But have they been linked to Casey? No. And therefore, you are not going to get a conviction that way.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. E.J., quick question. E.J.? E.J.?

CALLER: Yes, hello.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hi, there. How you doing? Quick question.

CALLER: Yes. My thought is that this really stuck out to me today, that if someone is looking up chloroform and then they jump from there to Facebook, and then they jump from there to MySpace, and they jump from there to neck breaking, to me that points right to Casey because...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Mackenzie Phillips next.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nine-one-one, what`s your emergency?



911 OPERATOR: 911, what`s your emergency?

CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CINDY ANTHONY: I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, where is Caylee? At least where is her remains?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She couldn`t find a key to their shed and wanted to know if she -- if I had a shovel she could borrow. I said yes, I had to show her what she can use.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He finally came back to that same area after making another lap of the yard and gave a final trained indication in one location in the backyard.

CINDY ANTHONY: Started yelling Casey, I said what do you mean she`s been gone?

CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF MURDERING HER DAUGHTER: In my gut, I know she`s still ok. I could feel it.

CINDY ANTHONY: I overheard her tell Lee that Caylee`s been gone for 31 days.

What do you want me to tell Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: That mommy loves her very much.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m in the (INAUDIBLE) down by the school. I just found a human skull.

JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: She never was missing. Caylee Anthony died on June 16, 2008 when she drowned in her family`s swimming pool.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: Tonight, another astounding day in court as experts laid out just how many incriminating searches were made on the Anthony family computer. Why would anybody make so many searches about this? Listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Inhalation, death or value death (ph), self- defense, hand-to-hand combat and injuries, middle underscore meningial artery, ruptured spleen, chest trauma, internal bleeding, how to make chloroform.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Plus neck breaking. Perhaps the most damming, one site, reportedly about chloroform, was visited 84 times.

All right. Straight out to Michael Christian, senior field producer, "In Session"; Michael we`re having some debate about what the significance of this 84 is. Try to explain it to us in people terms.

MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, SENIOR FIELD PRODUCER, "IN SESSION": Well, you know, we only heard that at the very end of the day, Jane. It didn`t even come up during the direct examination of this witness, John Bradley. It came up actually during his redirect.

But 84 times he says that they found evidence on that computer through search histories that she had researched the word "chloroform", or something having to do with chloroform. At one point it was specifically how to make chloroform. It`s interesting, a lot of times she misspelled the word "chloroform" and then the computer would apparently respell it for her and do a search.

But 84 times, that`s a lot. And the prosecution is going to say, that`s because she was trying to find out its effects, how to make it, what she could do it with it, and she intended to use it on Caylee Anthony.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Midwin Charles, why wouldn`t the prosecution have laid it out with more specificity in the opening statements because a lot of people have said listening to all this, their heads swimming and spinning and we of course know much more than the jurors because we have been reading stacks of newspaper reports and other wire copy for years now. They`ve got to connect all of these dots themselves.

MIDWIN CHARLES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think it`s indicative of the fact that they cannot connect the dots, at least not right now. I mean I listened to what Michael said and he said she made the searches. The prosecution has not established that. That is the largest hole right now at least with respect to this evidence.

Damaging, yes; conclusive, absolutely not.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Janine, Minnesota, your question or thought ma`am.

JANINE, MINNESOTA (via telephone): Hello, Jane. Thank you for taking my call. I really appreciate what you do.

My question, I guess, is regarding Casey`s claim to have been molested by her father and brother. I thought that normally when someone was molested, that they stop taking care of themselves, they want to look less attractive, they want to -- they stop showering because they don`t want to appear womanly and she seems to have been attractive and taking care of herself and happy all along.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think you`re making some excellent points and in a couple of seconds, we`re going to be talking to Mackenzie Phillips, who is the author of the incredible book, "High on Arrival" and she says that she was forced to have sex with her father.

And so we`re going to find out -- I`m going to hold your thought until we talk to Mackenzie in like two minutes, because she can tell us whether that`s what people do. She looks very well-groomed to me. So I don`t know if that`s necessarily how people react.

Another very odd revelation is that somebody searched the name Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez on the Anthony family computer. Check this out.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On the morning of July 16th, 2008, I found Google web searches also referencing the name Zenaida Gonzalez, looking in particular for an age range in Orlando and in Jacksonville for a person by that name within the age range of 22 to 29, either in Orlando or in Jacksonville, Florida.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you see any references anywhere on the computer to Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez prior to the morning of July 16th of 2008?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, Michael, what is astounding about that is the only time Zenaida is searched is after the cops have already entered the picture. What do you know?

CHRISTIAN: Yes, that`s right. You know, and you`ve got to say, who is doing this search? Is this Casey searching for Zenaida Gonzalez Fernandez to prove to these guys that she`s looking for her? Is it Cindy perhaps or Lee looking on the computer for this woman? We don`t know that at this point. We only know that somebody used that computer to do the search.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Again, the prosecution is going to have to connect the dots. Thank you so much, Michael and Midwin.

Now this.


BAEZ: You see, this family must keep its secrets quiet and it all began when Casey was 8 years old and her father began to touch her inappropriately and it escalated.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Explosive allegations of incest at the very heart of Casey Anthony`s defense. Her attorney claims she was so damaged by being molested by her dad George and her brother Lee that she made up elaborate lies to cover up little Caylee`s accidental drowning in the family pool.

On the witness stand, George said, flat out, he never molested his daughter. So is Casey`s story believable?

Well, my very special guest tonight is actress Mackenzie Phillips, daughter of the Mamas and Papas founder, John Phillips. Really great to have you tonight, Mackenzie. You made national headlines when you spoke out and said that your famous father had molested you. You laid out these allegations in your really amazing book, "High on Arrival". It`s an incredible read.

Mackenzie actually read an excerpt on the "Oprah Winfrey Show". Listen to this.


MACKENZIE PHILLIPS, ACTRESS: I woke up that night from a blackout to find myself having sex with my own father. I don`t remember how it started or thankfully how it ended. Was it the first time? Had this happened before? I didn`t know and I still don`t.

All I can say is that it was the first time that I was aware of it. For a moment, I was in my body in that horrible truth. And then I slipped back into a blackout.

Your father is supposed to protect you. Your father is supposed to protect you, not (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Powerful, powerful stuff.

Mackenzie, I`m so thrilled to have you back on our show. Tell us, what happens to a family, a family dynamic when a female member of the family says, "I was molested by my dad"?

PHILLIPS: Well, what happened in my family I think is pretty well documented. You know, I was called a liar. I was called crazy. I was called mentally ill. You know. I mean there are many ways that families react to these types of allegations and I know that I suffered pretty much a textbook reaction from a family.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, ok. Now connecting your case to the Casey Anthony case, jailhouse videotapes and witness testimony have established that Casey is a pathological liar, has been for a long time. Pretended to have a job when she didn`t, pretended to have a nanny when she didn`t.

When it comes to this crucial question of sexual abuse, I think the big question is: are jurors going to believe that Casey is being truthful this one time?

Now, listen to her father.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever committed any sexually inappropriate act with or in the presence of your daughter, Casey Anthony?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: So Mackenzie, how do you know who to believe?

PHILLIPS: Well, you know, I`ll tell you something, the fact that -- I mean I don`t know whether it`s true or not that Casey Anthony was molested by her father. What I will say is that if it`s untrue, it is a pathetic and horrible thing to bring out because the truth should always be treated with reverence.

And, you know, I mean this is a really ugly situation and she lied and lied and lied and is probably still lying and that little baby is dead, you know.

And how do you know who is telling the truth? Well, you know, you look into their eyes and we really haven`t had an opportunity to hear from Casey`s own mouth in present time. But I have a feeling that it wouldn`t be very believable.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Interesting.

PHILLIPS: I don`t know though because I was the one that was called a liar. So I`m in a very difficult position here. I mean obviously this woman is damaged, deeply damaged; whether it be from sexual abuse or just being a cuckoo nut killer, I don`t know.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I appreciate your courage in discussing this because it is. It is awkward for you. And I appreciate it extra because of that.

Stay right there Mackenzie.

We`re going to have more on these head-spinning allegations of incest and Mackenzie`s insight.


BAEZ: This child who at 8 years old, learned to lie immediately. She could be 13 years old, have her father`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m taking your calls on this; 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877- 586-7297.


BAEZ: This family must keep its secrets quiet.

When Casey was 8 years old and her father came into her room and began to touch her inappropriately and it escalated. And it escalated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever sexually molested Casey Anthony?

G. ANTHONY: No, sir.

CINDY ANTHONY: So there you go. You want to fight it?

BAEZ: Casey has a brother. And he, too, wanted to follow in his footsteps. He attempted to also touch his sister.

CASEY ANTHONY: My own brother walking into my room at night and feeling my breast while I slept.

BAEZ: What does a sex abuse survivor look like? Do they wear a scarlet letter?

CASEY ANTHONY: I think my dad used to do the same thing to me but when I was much younger.

BAEZ: She could be 13 years old, have her father`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened.

CINDY ANTHONY: You were the best father.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I am here tonight and talking with my very special guest, Mackenzie Phillips, author of the amazing book, "High on Arrival".

Mackenzie says that she had sex with her own father who is a famous singer from the Mamas and the Papas. And we are asking her to comment on Casey and her defense attorney`s claims.

Now, here`s my problem, Mackenzie. Listen to this. Casey wrote a jailhouse letter painting a different story than what her defense attorney laid out in court that you just heard.

Here`s her letter. Quote, "My own brother walking into my room at night and feeling my breasts while I slept. I think my dad used to do that same thing to me but when I was much younger. I woke up night after night with my sports bra lifted over my chest or if I had a regular bra it would be unhooked.

When I told my mom about it two years ago, she made excuses saying that he was sleep walking. Not only did she say I was lying, her reaction was literally like a knife in my chest. Then my mom asked me, `So that`s why you`re a whore?`"

Now, here`s the problem with that is the attorney is accusing in court, in open court, in opening statements, Casey`s dad of much more serious sexual abuse, involving oral sex with his child, Casey Anthony, the defendant. And yet in this letter it`s not spelled out that way.

It spelled out, well, the brother is feeling her breast and maybe my dad did it, too, when I was much younger. Your thoughts?

PHILLIPS: Well, let`s get this straight. I mean sexual abuse is sexual abuse and I don`t think there are any lesser forms of it, really. It`s all very damaging emotionally and mentally to the victim.

But at the same time, how -- and look, I`m coming from a place of being told I was a liar for speaking my truth. But I can`t speak up for Casey Anthony because she has been proven to lie over and over and over again and that little baby is dead.

But different people react in different ways to surviving this type of abuse.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask you this Mackenzie. Does it hurt real incest survivors, people who have actually experienced it, if she`s using it as an excuse to try to get off a murder rap and pulling this out of a hat?


PHILLIPS: If she`s using this as an excuse to get off a murder rap, and that it`s all fake, it is absolutely pathetic. It`s insulting to the survivor community.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I would agree with you there.

Teena, Oklahoma, your question or thought for Mackenzie?

TEENA, OKLAHOMA (via telephone): Yes. So many people are calling in and saying that they believe sexual abuse survivors react in a specific way. And they need to understand that that is not true.


TEENA: I was sexually and mentally and physically abused from the age of 3 to 7.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m so sorry.

TEENA: And I did not grow up like lying. I did not grow up promiscuous. I was in an abuse marriage for three years but as soon as I child I said I can take this but my baby deserves better and I got out of it because my baby --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Teena, let me say this because you raise some important points. Mackenzie, the stereotype of oh, if you had incest, you`re going to have to do this, you`re going to have to keep lies. Some woman just called and said people who were incested (ph), they are unkempt. There`s these crazy stereotypes that abound.

PHILLIPS: Well, and look at it Jane. I mean there are crazy stereotypes about addicts and alcoholics as well and they are not necessarily true for everybody. So we as a society need to be careful about how we pigeon hole people.

So I don`t -- like there is no scarlet letter for an incest survivor. Do I look like an incest survivor? Do I look unkempt? Do I seem like a liar?


PHILLIPS: I don`t think. You know. But at the same time, using this type of defense, if it`s not truth it`s absolutely pathetic and if it is true, then we shall find out.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. But that lying had to come from somewhere. The intense dysfunctionality of this woman had to come from somewhere.

On the other side of the break, we`re going to be joined by a clinical psychologist who`s also going to weigh in -- unbelievable -- with Mackenzie.



BAEZ: You`ll hear evidence that Casey has a brother and he too wanted to follow in his father`s footsteps and on certain occasions when he was a teenager he attempted to also touch his sister, although it didn`t go as far.

It got so bad that the FBI did a paternity test to see if he was Caylee`s father.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Lee is not little Caylee`s father but what`s the likelihood of both father George and brother Lee molesting Casey and for that we go to Michelle Golland, clinical psychologist. Michelle?



GOLLAND: You know, I think what I wanted to point out, Jane, is that do you all remember the Susan Smith trial?


GOLLAND: One of the things that came out about her was that her stepfather had been molesting her and having sex with her almost up until the last year, right before the murder of her two children.

So, I think what we need to know is that this sort of thing does happen in the sense of the boundary violations and what gets created in someone, not all the time, but what can get created through this sort of trauma is this ability to disassociate, to disengage and to not be able to form bonds and connections in the same way that let`s say you or I would be able to with our child.

So, we need to understand that those are real issues. And I want to applaud Mackenzie for coming on and, again, addressing these very challenging issues and painful issues.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, of course. Now, Mackenzie --

PHILLIPS: I have a 24-year-old son with whom I`ve been able to create a very, very special bond. And we`re so close. And I thank you for saying that because it doesn`t happen to everybody. But it certainly seems to happen to some.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mackenzie you were on "Celebrity Rehab" with Dr. Drew. And we`re going to show a little video of that when we talk about this. Your drug use you say I believe was connected to the fact that you say you had sex with your father. And we know that Casey Anthony also was out partying like crazy; doing hot body contests and dancing and going to nightclubs and drinking at the very time where she should have been devastated about her daughter vanishing and now she admits dying.

PHILLIPS: Think we need to make a distinction here, Jane. Please forgive me for jumping in. It was not that I had sex with my father. I was sexually abused by my father. We need to put that out here because I can`t sit here without needing to say that.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes absolutely. Absolutely and you`re right. We have to be careful about our terminology.

PHILLIPS: Thank you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you see that her partying, though, might be explained by this alleged molestation?

PHILLIPS: It certainly could be. But I mean -- then also she was a beautiful young girl, you know, out partying as many young beautiful girls do. So six to one -- you know, how do you know? Doctor?

GOLLAND: Well, you know, I think that what happens -- if I`m going to be on the assumption that something happened within that home, Jane, these things, the way this entire family responded is not a family that is without dysfunction. Serious trauma occurred in this home of some kind.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And the question is: what was the dysfunction? Was it just co-dependency and enabling and the usual or was it something far more sinister? Final thoughts on the other side of the break from these two ladies.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mackenzie Phillips, what can we learn from the Casey Anthony case?

PHILLIPS: It makes me think of the old Crosby, Stills and Nash song, "Teach Your Children Well". Let`s teach our children well and we`ll be doing a good thing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Michelle, your takeaway.

GOLLAND: I think we need to be able see that there is -- when trauma happens in families, we need to do something about it. We need to get help, get support. This family was in crisis before the death of Caylee Anthony.


And I guess my takeaway is that every single family has secrets and as they say in programming, you know this well, Mackenzie, you`re only as sick as your secrets.

PHILLIPS: You`re only as sick as your secrets.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to thank you Mackenzie for coming on. I know it was difficult because you`ve had a horrific ordeal and you`ve written about it so eloquently in your book. I hope everybody checks it out.

Nancy Grace is up next.