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Day 15 of Caylee Anthony Murder Trial

Aired June 10, 2011 - 21:00:00   ET


DREW PINSKY, HOST: All right. Here we go. It`s the 15th day of the trial. And the second day Casey couldn`t hold it together. Grisly details about Caylee`s corpse rotting in the woods, animals chewing on bones. Just saying it makes you sick. But in court they`re seeing it. Casey`s emotions looked real. What I want to know is this shock of a grieving mother or a child killer who realizes her day of reckoning is upon her? Let`s figure this out.

Thank you for those of you who are staying with us after Nancy`s great coverage of the Casey Anthony trial. I hope today we`re going to help you figure this thing out from yet another angle and really enhance what your understanding is of this thing.

Now, Casey Anthony apparently recovered from whatever made her ill, I guess she was retching and she had dry heaves. I don`t know what that was. She was sick. However, she`s now only to be confronted by really truly sickening testimony about what animals did to Caylee`s body as it decomposed in the woods.

Watch this. Then we`re going to talk.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Grim testimony, Casey Anthony breaking down while she hears it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: top of the bones. These have actually been chewed on by animals.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The analysis of what was left of little Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had all -- we collected all but one tooth, most of the spine, many of the ribs, all the long bones, tiny bones, hands, feet.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They showed a picture of the skeleton put back together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was carnivore activity in that part of the skeleton.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She also really broke down when on defense it was asked, asked, did you open up the skull?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Debate will ensure whether or not her emotions, what we`re seeing here is an act or if it`s real.


PINSKY: That is the big question. I would have retched. Don`t you guys? I mean, so hard to watch this stuff. Now, many of us have already convicted Casey, calling her a psychopath. I want to remind people, I`m going to go through this every once in a while. We`re tossing these terms around. Let`s talk about what a psychopath is.

That`s somebody who may appear normal, but lacks remorse or guilt, tends to be emotionless about violence and violent behavior, and no capacity for empathy. When people say they`re monsters in our society or pure evil, that`s really what they`re talking about.

A lesser version of that is the sociopath. Again, you`ve heard using these terms interchangeably. Sociopaths are really unable to control impulsive behavior, they`re anti-social. They may be very charming but become easily annoyed and irritable.

And stay with me, now. You have to distinguish that from the narcissist, another term that you hear tossed around about Casey. These are people, and again, you`re going to make your own conclusion about this, who are self-absorbed, often have emotional emptiness from traumatic childhoods, will pursue power to buttress a false sense of themselves. They`re really disconnected from their real selves.

I, like you, am trying to decide which one Casey is. I think what most people have decided is that she is a psychopath. That`s the monster. And if what we`re seeing here today is emotion, maybe it`s emotion that she`s registering because what is before her is so overwhelmingly obviously so much convicting of her guilt, so prone to convict her, that now she`s fearful and crying because of that, not out of empathy for the deceased little girl who, I will remind you, again, is who we`re all here to find justice for.

Now, Casey was comforted by a member of her defense team, as she and the jury heard all of the hideous details that the medical examiner brought forth. Interestingly, the medical examiner was Dr. G., who I`ve known from Discovery for years. They didn`t bring that up. But she has had a TV show. Think about that. That`s interesting. I`m surprised they don`t try to undermine her credibility because of that. But OK.

She determined with great, great effectiveness that Caylee`s death was the result of homicide. Now, we have got a bombshell about this in a couple minutes. But first, joining us to discuss all this, first of all, is Ryan Smith from "In Session." He`s from our sister network TruTV. He`s an attorney. And Marcia Clark joins me in the studio. She, of course, was the prosecutor in the O.J. Simpson criminal trial and author of "Guilt by Association."

All right. Let us watch this. Then we`ll ask these two what they think.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The top of the bones. These have actually been chewed on by animals. This bone here actually is a fragment that you can actually put right back into place there.


PINSKY: Now, Ryan, did the jury appear to be upset by what they were hearing?

RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION": They didn`t. They were focused on the evidence. They have really throughout this trial kept looking at their screens that are right in front of them. That shows pictures of the evidence and what`s going on and the pictures that are being offered into evidence. They focus on that.

The other thing, Dr. Drew, they don`t really look at Casey. Maybe the first couple of days, a couple people would look at Casey when she would get emotional. But I really feel they`re beyond that. At this point they`re focused on the evidence on this case and they`re not as fazed by what they`re seeing. They might have a reaction, but nothing other than trying to figure out what`s going on in the case.

PINSKY: Isn`t that interesting? The rest of us are really focused on Casey. And the jurors, after all, they are supposed to focus on the evidence, are focused on that -- just that. The prosecution`s belief that Casey`s death involved foul play may have been decided today with the testimony of the medical examiner known as TV`s Dr. G. She`s very strong. Get a load of this is.


DR. JAN GARAVAGLIA, MEDICAL EXAMINER: It is a red flag that when a child is not reported immediately to authorities, either with an injury, that`s something we look for for foul play. The body was hidden. A child`s body is thrown out, hidden in a field, it`s often found that these bodies are in -- not always, but closed containers, a suitcase or a plastic bag. Like this child was.


PINSKY: Marcia, not good for the defense. I wonder if also, if this has been your experience, what the medical examiner was saying, that it is consistent with homicide and whether the things like the heart sticker and the Winnie the Pooh blankets are also consistent with foul play.

MARCIA CLARK, PROSECUTOR, O.J. SIMPSON CRIMINAL TRIAL: All of it seems to be. And this is really the nail in the coffin for the defense. Because all along people have been saying, well, you know what, there`s no definitive cause of death, inconclusive is what the coroner said. And if you can`t prove that it was really a homicide, then it plays sort of into the defense that has been outlined for us, that it was an accident, it was a drowning.

But if you believe -- and the coroner was very strong today, you`re right.

PINSKY: This was the medical examiner. Yes. But was she too strong, in other words, was she opining to the point where the defense could start taking her apart a little bit?

CLARK: Well, you know, the defense should have probably sat down when they were ahead. From what I saw, they went after her so much, and this is a very strong witness. You always run the risk with a very strong witness like this, that the more you push them, the stronger they get.

PINSKY: Which is what seemed to be happening here.

CLARK: Exactly.

PINSKY: So rather than pushing the point that there was no cause of death, they pushed her credibility and pushed her into a stronger position.

CLARK: A stronger position, yes. It`s one of those things. You know, the more they hit her, the stronger she got. And she actually established, what reason do you have to have duct tape over a baby`s face?

PINSKY: Well, interesting you bring that up. Here`s some compelling testimony about the duct tape found near the mouth of the skull found at the crime scene and what it then meant to the medical examiner.


GARAVAGLIA: The fact that there`s duct tape anywhere attached to that child`s face is to me indication of a homicide.


PINSKY: Ryan, it seems like she was a very strong witness, right?

SMITH: Oh, she was tremendously strong. I can`t underscore how much I agree with Marcia Clark there, because essentially this witness was on the stand saying the cause of death was homicide by undetermined means.

Cheney Mason cross-examined here, and wanted her to lead to the idea that it could have been an accident. But every time he questioned her on it, she`d come back and say, in all of the cases I`ve seen, for example, an accidental drowning, in every case the parent or guardian has called 911. That`s something he didn`t want them to hear.

And she kept doing that over and over and over again. So what this sets up is, if their theory is an accident, then you almost have to think if they would have brought that up to her in the very beginning, if Casey would have admitted this in the very beginning, you might have had a totally different analysis because she would have factored that into her conclusions.

PINSKY: And what I really like about this testimony is that it`s what I`m looking for. It`s like, you know, experienced people experience these patterns out in the world and you kind of go, like, this is the way these things go. And if Dr. G. has had that experience and is telling the truth, which we have no reason to think she`s not, that`s how these things go. It`s foul play.

The chief medical -- the deputy chief medical examiner, Gary Utz, described Caylee`s remains and the decomposing clothing found on them. The jury saw a photo of Caylee wearing the same shirt before she disappeared and what you see on the left are the letters Dr. Utz was able to recover.

Obviously that`s Caylee on the right in the shirt and that`s the same lettering there, isn`t it? Oh, boy. My goodness.

Ryan, this happened before Dr. G. was on the stand with her powerful testimony. All very incredible, powerful evidence, yes?

SMITH: Yes, it really was. And what they`re doing is they`re piecing together their case. They`re saying Caylee had this shirt, now you see the letters that she had. They also did something that I think is extraordinary, which is they had a picture of Caylee up at one point and superimposed the bone fragments that they found to show that the outline was Caylee`s face and then they showed in a video a piece of duct tape that would have theoretically covered her nose and mouth.

I couldn`t believe the judge let it in. But it was such powerful evidence for the jury to see and it stayed up for about four to five minutes. I mean, they just had a field day with their evidence.

PINSKY: All right. I have got to interrupt you, Ryan, because I`m disgusted. I have to go retch. We have to stop court for a minute. All right. Marcia, of course -- thank you, Ryan, of course. And Marcia will be back with us a little bit later.

Later, a woman trampled in the scramble for seats today. Police had to be called. We`ll talk about that later.

But next, a look at the relationship between Casey and Cindy.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn`t it true that you found no evidence of trauma of any kind of these remains?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did not see any evidence of trauma.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were portions of bone that were disrupted, but I did not analyze them to make the determination as to what may have caused that disruption.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you ever see bruises on Caylee?


You need to have something to go on.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: Mom, I don`t have anything. I`m sorry.

CINDY ANTHONY: I found my daughter`s car today. It smells like there has been a dead body in the damn car.

What do you want me to tell Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: That mommy loves her very much.


PINSKY: That is the Casey Anthony murder trial. It reads like an episode of the TV crime drama "CSI" but this drama is real. I keep reminding everybody the victim is a sweet 2-year-old girl named Caylee Anthony whose body was dumped in the woods.

The killer allegedly, Caylee`s 25-year-old partying mom, Casey Anthony, whom, if convicted, faces a possible death sentence. The prosecution says that Casey murdered her daughter with chloroform. The defense maintains that Caylee accidentally drowned in the pool.

With me now is Daily Beast correspondent Diane Dimond; and criminal defense attorney in the studio here, Mark Eiglarsh joins me again. We`re going to watch a bit of tape and then we will talk.


CAYLEE ANTHONY (singing): You`ll never know dear how much I love you, please don`t take my sunshine away.


PINSKY: Diane, what do we really know about little Caylee?

DIANE DIMOND, CORRESPONDENT, DAILY BEAST/NEWSWEEK: Breaks your heart to see that video, doesn`t it? I`m the mother of a daughter myself. We know that she was an unplanned child. Her mother was just 19 years old at the time that she became pregnant by who knows who. We`ve never really learned who the father is. And, Cindy, her mom, the grandmother of the baby, testified she doesn`t know who the father is either.

But having said all that, by all reports, Casey Anthony was a very loving mother. She never yelled at this child or hit her. She was seen disciplining her a little bit if she got too close to a swimming pool or something dangerous. But somewhere along the line when Casey became, like, 22 years old, something must have snapped somewhere and she would rather have gone out drinking and dancing than taking care of this child. And that`s when all the lying seems to have begun.

PINSKY: Oh, my God. Looking at the pictures of this baby, when you have to look at them in sequence like that, it just -- if she is -- if Casey is the grieving mom, you can`t imagine seeing all this footage and then the gruesome stuff that has followed the last few days, I would expect to see her like Cindy, just shattered.

But when it comes to Caylee (sic), Caylee is the 25-year-old mom we`re talking about, she is the alleged killer. And we`ve learned a lot about Casey, sadly none of it very good. Look at this.


CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know what else to do anymore. If I knew where she was, if something would have happened, I would have admitted that a long time ago.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe thinking up more lies to tell us will help us?

CASEY ANTHONY: This is the first time I`ve truly, truly been angry this entire time, but I`m so beyond frustrated with all of this, I can`t even swallow right now. Can someone let me -- come on!

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, hold on, sweetheart. Settle down.

CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody is letting me speak. I don`t know what`s going on. My entire life has been taken from me.


PINSKY: Well, that`s true. And if she is the person that`s capable of killing that child, appropriately so. But the one thing we know about Casey, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies. Mark, that`s the only thing we know for sure. She is a convincing, consummate liar, but does that mean she`s the one that could murder this child?



EIGLARSH: You answered the question. I`m not saying that she is a murderer. What I`m saying -- I have my strong personal feelings.

PINSKY: Wait, what do my glasses have to do with this?

EIGLARSH: You answered the question. The answer is, yes.

PINSKY: Yes, she could.

EIGLARSH: She could be. That`s it. Here`s what we do know, it`s not just that she lies, it`s that during the time frame, regardless of whether you believe the state or the defense theory, and the defense has laid out a specific theory, she got a tattoo, "the beautiful life," while either she had just murdered her child or her child tragically drowned. She`s out dancing after she tragically killed her child or after she drowned.

PINSKY: All bad.

EIGLARSH: She`s letting everyone, not -- go out there and search for the child, knowing the child is dead.

PINSKY: It`s just -- again, that part, the lying and the egregious parenting certainly leaves open the possibility that it`s a murder.

EIGLARSH: Oh, sure.

PINSKY: We also have a grieving mother and grandmother, Cindy Anthony, following the - and for those following the trial, Cindy`s emotional calls to 911 and courtroom breakdowns are painfully etched in all of my memories.


CINDY ANTHONY: I found out my granddaughter has been taken, she has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she has been missing. She just admitted to me that she has been trying to find her, herself.

There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there has been a dead body in the damn car.

I overheard her tell Lee that Caylee had been gone for 31 days and that Zanny had taken her.


PINSKY: It`s so interesting. I, like you, am trying to figure this thing out. I`m just trying to figure it out. And I know that if I, myself, had not killed the child and I was sitting in Casey`s spot, I would look like Cindy.

Now, Diane, what do we know about Cindy`s relationship with her daughter, Casey?

DIMOND: You know, I was in court during that that time you just showed, Cindy completely fell apart. And it`s interesting that Casey never really looks at her mother. Doesn`t look at her father or her brother, Lee, when they come to testify. She`ll steal a little glance at them, but that`s about it.

Their relationship is strained, as any mother and daughter. You know all about that, I`m sure. As it was with my daughter. They both picked at each other. They I think squabbled over the daughter and how to raise the daughter.

But you were talking about Casey`s lying. This girl lied from the moment she had that child. And maybe even before. But she said she had a job for two years. She didn`t have. She said she had friends. She named them. Juliet, Anabelle. She went through this litany of people to her mother and her mother believed every single word of it.

In court that same day Jose Baez came up to cross examine and said, Cindy, don`t you understand that Anabelle and Juliet and all these people are her imaginary friends?

PINSKY: Diane, they`re more imaginary friends though. They`re flat- out lies. Thank you, Diane, for the report. I have to stop you. We have to go. Mark will be back with us a little bit later. We`ll be back after this.

But first, I`m answering your questions and calls. We have over 11,000 followers on Twitter. Thank you for following us, @drdrewhln. Stay with us here.


PINSKY: All right. Now, my Twitter, e-mail, and Facebook accounts have been blowing up with your comments about the Casey Anthony trial. And by the way, I have now more than 11,000 of you guys following me on Twitter. Thank you for that. And join us if you`re not there, it`s @drdrewhln.

Let`s get straight to the phones. First up we have Loxi in Texas. What`s going on?

CALLER: Hi, Dr. Drew. After reading blog comments, the majority of men think the evidence is not strong enough so far against Casey, whereas women are ready to execute her now. Any thought as to why that is?

PINSKY: You know, you`re going to put me on the spot here a little bit, because I think, and I`m smiling but this is not such a happy thought. That women reserve a very special aggression for other women. And just the thought -- well, I`ll tell you what, another woman seeing a mom act the way she acted is so infuriating that that aggression is just unleashed. And reasonably so, right? Reasonably so.

We have a Facebook question from Bea. She asked if the jury for some reason came back not guilty, what kind of life would Casey have? What do I think? I think she would disappear. And if she is a psychopath which she has been painted as, she will go on, she really won`t care, which is just the sick part of all this.

Let`s go back to the phones. We have Ken from Arizona. Ken, go ahead.

CALLER: Hi, Dr. Drew. That tape was not used to suffocate the baby. This was an accidental chloroform death. Casey was a quote/unquote, "loving mother." A loving mother leaves a favorite blanket and places a heart on the tape. And that tape was placed there, in her mind, to prevent insects and all manner of unmentionable creatures from entering her baby.

PINSKY: Ken, forgive me, but a loving mother does not chloroform her baby. I`m stunned. I`m stunned that that`s OK parenting from your standpoint. She may be a horrible mother who has ambivalent feelings and did feel some degree of regret, wasn`t a complete monster, but come on, now, stop it.

Again, so often during my broadcast I get the feelings of disgust. This is one of those moments. I`m disgusted by that kind of parenting. All right. We have Jan from Minnesota on the line. I`m going to go ahead with her. Let`s go, Jan.

CALLER: Hi, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Hi, Jan. You`re happier.

CALLER: Do most apparently psychopaths typically have some sort of threshold at which they finally break down and display emotion?

PINSKY: Not necessarily. Again, you know, there`s gradations of all these things from sociopathy to psychopathy. And a true psychopath really doesn`t care. They care about protecting their own skin and that`s it. And a lot of people I`ve talked to, profilers on this very show, that believe that Casey is more in that latter category.

Nick writes: "I see people calling Casey a psycho or whatever. How about all of us? Do we have some psychosis ourselves about the way we are treating another human being?" And, boy, that is a great question. I have got to tell you, it`s one of the things that sort of captivates me about this case is us, and why we are so interested in this thing and why we can`t get enough of it.

I mean, look, there`s a -- first of all, I think it has something to do with the fact that we want justice for the little girl, which is appropriate. But by the same token, there`s a car accident here, and there are people really suffering. Whatever the truth is, we have got to check ourselves a little bit and think about, you know, why we jump to conclusions, OK? Be careful. We may be right, but just be careful. I`m trying to make sense of this. I really am. We`re all trying to do it together.

And up next, Casey accuses her father and brother of molesting her. Are George and Lee Anthony sexual predators or victims of a desperate defense and more of Casey`s lies?

And later, a woman who prosecuted O.J. Simpson for murder, Marcia Clark, she joins me right here.



JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the answer is actually relatively simple. She never was missing. Caylee Anthony died on June 16th, 2008, when she drowned in her family`s swimming pool.


PINSKY: That was lead defense attorney, Jose Baez, dropping a bombshell on day one of the trial, claiming that Caylee had accidentally drowned. The explosive allegations continued when Baez said George was part of the cover-up to dispose of Caylee`s body and then accused him of molesting daughter, Casey, when she was a little girl. Watch this.


BAEZ: This child, at eight years old, learned to lie immediately. She could be 13 years old, have her father`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened.


PINSKY: So, is George Anthony a sexual predator or is he a grieving grandfather who became trapped in yet another of his daughter`s lies? Lies, lies, lies. Watch this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever sexually molested your daughter, Casey Anthony?


CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER DAUGHTER: You`ve been a great dad, and you`ve been the best grandfather.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You love your daughter more than anything in the world?


I got within three feet of my daughter`s car. It smelled like a decomposed body.


PINSKY: So, where are the lies? I actually spoke to George`s ex- wife, people didn`t know there`s an ex-wife, who actually thinks very highly of George but thought he had a lying problem but also believed Casey had a lying problem. Only thing for sure in this trial, packed with lies, guys. Packed with lies. Again, I`m trying to understand this the way you are now.

So, joining me to help us out with this is criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh. Also back with us is bounty hunter, Leonard Padilla. He actually spent time in the Anthony home. So, Leonard, is George a monster or a grieving grandpa who got thrown under the bus by his daughter, who, herself, is the monster?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: He`s a grieving grandfather, and if you talk to anybody in that neighborhood around his house, they`ll tell you he loved that granddaughter more than anything else in the world. And he always spent as much time as he could with her. No doubt about it.

PINSKY: And Leonard, you --

PADILLA: Casey --


PADILLA: Is a monster. She`s a monster.

PINSKY: Now, you spent time with both of them. Can you give us a little insight what you observed to bring you to such a clear distinction between George being who he seems to be and Casey being the monster?

PADILLA: We spoke to probably 50 individuals in the neighborhood that saw George constantly with the child, pulling her in a little red wagon, walking her down the sidewalk, sitting out in the front yard with her. We also spoke to about 50 of Casey`s high school friends, post-high school friends, and they all said she`s a monster, she`s a liar, she doesn`t tell the truth, she doesn`t tell the truth when she doesn`t have to lie.

When we were there with her, like the one day she was showing off the tattoo, saying, it was in honor of her daughter, Caylee. Now, she knew Caylee was dead at the time. We didn`t. That was before the FBI came out with the announcement that there was decomposition and the hair band, death band on the hair. So, we are somewhat gullible about the fact that, OK, the child`s not dead, she had a tattoo made in her honor. And she said so.

PINSKY: But George, let me ask you this. When -- when did she switch from, as people are testifying, being this good mom to being this horrible, lying, egregious mom?

PADILLA: I think she always had -- I think she always had a face that she dealt with the public. I think she loved her -- I think she actually loved her daughter. I don`t think she had a problem. That particular night, though, she used chloroform to try to put her to sleep. She overdosed her. The thing with the prosecution --


PADILLA: Stop it.

PINSKY: Hold on, Leonard, just one second. Mark`s got something to say. Hold on.

EIGLARSH: Well, no, what are you afraid of, Len? I mean, what is this based on? Your four minutes of bailing her out? I don`t understand where you can conclusively say certain things that you do.

PADILLA: You know, that`s what I like about the Mark Brothers. All they want to do is not be sensible and listen to situations and say, OK --

EIGLARSH: I`m listening.

PADILLA: Are you listening?

EIGLARSH: I mean, no disrespect, but Drew could probably back me up on this. I think you suffer from what they call spotlightis enviosis.


PINSKY: Mark, what`s Leonard saying? Leonard, do you have response to that?

PADILLA: Hey, grasshopper, listen. You might learn something.

PINSKY: You there?

PADILLA: I`m here. Now, there`s no doubt there`s a lot of chloroform in the trunk of the car. Tremendous amounts. Tremendous amounts of chloroform. She was looking up chloroform on the computer. She learned how to make chloroform. When she mentioned to Tracy that she knew what chloroform was about as far as putting people to sleep, she wasn`t joking about it. She says, yes, I know about chloroform. I know it puts people to sleep. This was after we had bailed her out. And it`s not --

PINSKY: All right. Hold on a second, George -- Leonard. Hold on a second. George Anthony isn`t the only person that Casey accused of molesting her. Jailhouse letters she wrote to a fellow inmate in 2008 also incriminate her brother, Lee, who surprisingly has remained one of her staunchest allies. Watch this tape.



She told me that she had been kidnapped. That the nanny took her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you recall about the smell of the car?

LEE ANTHONY: Just that it was very potent, very strong.


PINSKY: Now, Leonard, I`m trying to get you and Mark to play nicely in the sandbox here, but I`m going to ask you first. Do you think that there`s evidence that Lee molested Casey?

PADILLA: No. None whatsoever. He`s not that kind of kid.

PINSKY: All right. Hold on. Mark, what is your response?

EIGLARSH: I`ll play nice with him. First of all, I`ll join -- listen, we can join forces. We`re OK because I do agree with him on that point, OK? There is no evidence of Lee at all molesting because they never asked him the question.

PINSKY: You`re right. First of all, I didn`t hear what you said because I`m distracted by the hat and actually a little envious, I want to wear a hat, myself. By the end of the segment, you have to put the hat on my head (ph). But Leonard, we`re joining your team, buddy. We`re trying to get what we can from you, but we`re concerned. We`re concerned. Mark raised concerns about sort of, you know, what you were basing your conclusions on rather than just the collecting of evidence.

EIGLARSH: No question. If I want to know how long it took you to post the paperwork to get her out of jail, you`re an expert, but I don`t know about anything else beyond that.

PINSKY: How do you respond to that, Leonard?

PADILLA: Did you go to law school, Mark?

EIGLARSH: Yes. That`s what my parents tell me.

PADILLA: Did you go to law school?

EIGLARSH: Yes, I did. Yes.

PADILLA: Well, did you go to law school? OK. I went to law school. Do you have a law degree?


PADILLA: Do you have a law degree?

EIGLARSH: This is blistering. You should join the defense team.

PADILLA: Yes or no, do you have a law degree?

EIGLARSH: Go on. Yes, I do. Yes, I do, Leonard.

PADILLA: Yes. I`ve got a law degree. Are you the president, chairman of the board of a law school? Are you?

EIGLARSH: No. So, you win. That`s it. You win. You win, I guess.

PADILLA: I`ve been for 28 years.

EIGLARSH: You got me.

PADILLA: Is that what you want to base anything on? Absolutely not. Base it on my experience of 36 years of being involved in hundreds, hundreds of situations like this. Hundreds.

PINSKY: All right. Leonard, all kidding aside, I do want to get --


PINSKY: I do want to say that I appreciate you coming on the show and sharing what you`ve learned, because look, the reality is what I`ve said repeatedly -- I can`t take myself seriously. I`m sorry. Leonard, maybe you ought to take the hat off so we don`t keep putting the hats on, but the one thing I keep saying is -- you know, kidding aside, there`s a -- there we go. That`s what I`m talking about. That`s what I`m talking -- oh, shoot, I`m distracted again.

But the fact is, listen, we have to get serious here. Oh, there we go. We have to get serious here because I got to keep bringing it back to two things which is, I want to understand this and Leonard was there, he was on, you know, ground level, eyeball to eyeball with these people. He`s got something to tell us. I want to figure this thing out and understand what`s true, even though -- hold on a second, Leonard.

PADILLA: When he came on the scene, it was all over. She was being watched --

PINSKY: But even though you reminded me many time the truth doesn`t matter, it`s about whether you can prove or not prove her guilt. I`m interested in the truth. But, remind ourselves that this is really about a little girl, ultimately. This is a little girl whose life was -- the words don`t describe how disgusted I get when I think about what happened to this little girl, OK? So, remember that, always stay focused on that.

And when we return -- Leonard, thank you for joining us, and Mark, of course, always, thank you. He`ll stay with us.

When we return, the growing mountain of evidence and heap of lies, lies, lies, lies. After this.


LEE ANTHONY: And Zany`s opinion, Casey was not being a good mother to Caylee or wouldn`t be a good mother for Caylee. And she was taking her, taking Caylee from her to teach her a lesson and also told her not to go to the police or anything like that.




CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I called a little bit ago. The deputy sheriff. I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing. Finally admitted that the baby-sitter stole her.


PINSKY: Just torture. Casey`s mom, Cindy, called 911. It is, perhaps, one of the most defining moments in this entire story. The call is made after Casey finally admits to her mother that Caylee has been missing for 31 days. That, of course, leads to that desperate search for the toddler. Sadly, the search ended six months later when Caylee`s remains were found in a wooded area near the Anthony home.

Marcia Clark, prosecutor in the O.J. Simpson criminal case is here as well as Attorney Mark Eiglarsh. They`re both back with us. Marcia, Cindy might loved her daughter, but her 911 call could be what actually convict her.

MARCIA CLARK, FORMER PROSECUTOR: It may be. It may very well be. And don`t forget, though, I mean, to me, one of the most compelling pieces of evidence in this case is the behavior of Casey, herself.

PINSKY: The lying and the horrible parenting.

CLARK: Not just the lying but the behavior that`s euphoric. In the 31 days that her daughter is lying dead and she well knows it, she`s behaving in a manner that is absolutely joyful, gleeful. And if there`s any single thing that other than the duct tape, which I think is the murder weapon, that will convict her, it is the knowledge that jury now has that while she knew the child was dead, she was out there partying, hot body contests and all the rest of it.

EIGLARSH: I thoroughly disagree with Marcia.

PINSKY: What do you say?

EIGLARSH: Not because I do.

PINSKY: Go ahead.

EIGLARSH: I just always wanted to say that.


PINSKY: Go ahead. You bring up the duct tape as a murder weapon. Have you seen a case where duct tape is a murder weapon?


PINSKY: Has anybody seen that?

CLARK: I don`t think so.

PINSKY: That seems weird. So, to me, I mean, I had --

EIGLARSH: Crusher once --

PINSKY: But no, not --


PINSKY: Seriously?

PINSKY: Well it`s a serious bodily injury case, and apparently, --

PINSKY: To the skull? OK. But, duct tape, I mean, I`ve handled dead bodies before, and the one thing that`s problematic is stuff comes out of their mouth and nose for quite a while. And I can imagine someone taping up to sort of cover what they`re doing. I mean, if somebody is trying to cover their tracks, whatever they did, they may be trying to cover up.

Casey has remained a suspect all along, but she refused to break. This is the part that I found captivating. Despite intensive and threatening police interrogation. Watch this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything you told us is lie, every single thing. Yes. And you can`t keep sitting here and telling us the same thing and getting constantly over and over and over again we`re disproving everything you`re telling us. You`re telling us that you lied to us. You`re telling us you`ve given us misinformation. Everything you`re telling us. OK? This needs to end.


PINSKY: Mark, don`t you find this committed, fearless, convincing lying incredible?

EIGLARSH: It`s unbelievable. And the defense is hoping that, first, they`re going to believe that George molested her. Here`s the problem. So far, we haven`t heard one piece of evidence that can seal the deal for the prosecutors. There was a note written by Casey while she was in jail, and it says that Lee did such and such to me, and I think that my father did it to me when I was younger, too.


EIGLARSH: I think my father might have done it to me.


EIGLARSH: Wait a second. That`s entirely different than this alleged chronic, you know --

PINSKY: Huge, tremendous, overt sexual abuse.

EIGLARSH: You don`t get past the first hurdle then.

PINSKY: Yes, right, exactly. Now, among the most damning information that we heard about was the smell of death coming from Casey`s car. Watch Cindy talking about that.


CINDY ANTHONY: So, I went and got some Febreze, and I sprayed the doll and I sprayed Febreze all through the car thinking that that might help the odor. I sprayed the front and the back. I used pretty much a whole can of Febreze.


PINSKY: You know, although, Leonard has said some sort of damning things about Cindy, she`s the only one in this whole thing that I believe. I mean, she seems genuine. That`s how I would behave if my life had been shattered like that. Now, the one thing everyone agrees, a lot of experienced people, the smell of death was in the car.

High chloroform levels in Casey`s trunk, intriguing searches on her computer about death and bodily injury, and chloroform. The list goes on and on, and of course, the amazing, amazing lies. Marcia and Mark, what do you, guys, think -- I`ll start with Mark -- is the most single damaging bit of evidence or testimony we heard?

EIGLARSH: What the defense did. I don`t mean to trash the defense any more than I have to.

PINSKY: But you`ve been doing it all along, so you might as well.

EIGLARSH: Well, it comes from the heart. I`m a defense lawyer. And I know some of these lawyers involved. They shifted the burden unnecessarily. The prosecutors have the sole burden of proof, and they came up there and they said, here`s exactly how it happened. Unfortunately, there are so many flaws in their version and all the jurors have to do is say, well, we believe the prosecutor`s side more than the defense. That should never happen. That`s a violation of the constitution, what they did.

PINSKY: I don`t know about that.

EIGLARSH: It is not. A little too much.

PINSKY: But the fact is they shifted the burden of proof on to themselves, and there`s no proof (ph) --

EIGLARSH: They didn`t have to do it. No one knows how this happened. Let it be.

PINSKY: All right. All right. Fair enough. Marcia.

CLARK: All right. But they don`t have to show it yet. We are not in the defense case. I would expect, actually, with that opening statement, and I have to agree with Mark, you know, you don`t give that kind of detail --



EIGLARSH: Mom, Marcia Clark agrees with me.


EIGLARSH: She prosecuted O.J.

CLARK: As much as I wanted to thoroughly disagree, I tried. The truth is, they shouldn`t have pinned themselves down that way. It`s one thing to say that you`re going to see at the end of this case, the prosecution didn`t prove it, but they didn`t do that. They gave an actual scenario, and when it comes right down to it, now, they`re going to have to deliver, because this jury will not forget those promises that they made.

So, they`re going to have to put at least a mental health expert up there to say this is a child abuse accommodation syndrome. She made up these lies because she is delusional and all the rest of it. Unfortunately, in my opinion, what we see so far is these are opportunistic lies. They do not just coincidentally all help her. They help her because she`s a liar, pathologically.

EIGLARSH: They`re claiming Lee abused her. He said that in opening statement. They didn`t ask Lee the question.

PINSKY: Did you abuse her?

EIGLARSH: And you know what, that was the smartest thing they did, though.


EIGLARSH: Because quite frankly, because he would have said, obviously, no, and now, the jurors are looking at him, and they`ll believe he didn`t abuse her either potentially. That was a smart move, but the point is there won`t be any evidence of it.

PINSKY: That`s my thing. The only evidence we have heard is that she had her shirt up or something, there`s something vague, and that certainly doesn`t lead to what you called a combination syndrome where people have very, very serious character problems, severe lying, addictions. I`m starting to wonder if addiction is a bigger part of this, too, because, you know, we hear she was OK, then suddenly, things got really bad with her. Let me ask this. Both you guys. I know Mark -- I`ve given you grief about this the whole week --

EIGLARSH: Thanks for having me on by the way.

PINSKY: It`s been a pleasure.

EIGLARSH: The suite`s been fabulous.

PINSKY: It`s not just about guilt or innocence, but it`s about proven or not proven. Let me ask you something.


PINSKY: Do you think when this is all done, those of us that are sitting trying to make sense of this? Everyone that`s watching with us tonight wants to make sense of this and wants justice for this little girl. Do you think we`re going to know the truth when this is all over? Is that going to happen?

EIGLARSH: I have strong feelings about that.

PINSKY: And will there be justice for this child? Go.

EIGLARSH: One hundred percent absolutely no. We will never know exactly how this happened because of her. That`s the problem.

PINSKY: Because of the lying.

EIGLARSH: And everyone`s got a theory.

PINSKY: So, I just got to move on. Go on to something else.


CLARK: OK, wait. We`re not going to know. We`re never going to know. You know what we will know? We`ll know for sure when the defense is done whether we believe fully that she did it, and it was homicide by her as opposed to --

EIGLARSH: How did this happen, Marcia?

CLARK: No, no. We`ll never know.

EIGLARSH: We`ll never know. That is so frustrating.

PINSKY: So frustrating.

EIGLARSH: Everyone has a theory.

PINSKY: Why do I finish every show feeling like Casey allegedly did yesterday wanting to retch and close the courtroom down and --

EIGLARSH: Fake tears. It worked for her.

PINSKY: I`m not faking. I`m going to retch. I`m going to have dry heaves like she does. I mean, it`s very tough. It`s very tough to really watch this and think there might not be the satisfaction we hope to get from this and on behalf of this beautiful little girl. Mark, Marcia, thank you.

When we come back, I`m talking with my jury.


BAEZ: You`ll hear evidence that Casey has a brother and he, too, wanted to follow in his father`s footsteps, and on certain occasions, when he was a teenager, he attempted to also touch his sister, although, it didn`t go as far.





PINSKY: Really? People want to see the Casey Anthony trial in person that badly? It`s crazy. Joining me on the Dr. Drew jury here is Shawn Chaisson. Shawn was in the middle of that commotion today and even took a photo of a woman who had to be taken out on a gurney. Here is that photo. Shawn, welcome. What the heck happened today in line?

SHAWN CHAISSON, FREQUENT ANTHONY TRIAL ATTENDEE: Dr. Drew, it was very, very scary. We compare it to the Hu concert in Cincinnati, and a lot of your younger viewers probably won`t get the reference, but 12 people were trampled in Ohio back in the 1970s during the concert, and that`s exactly what it was like today. It`s like being at a rock concert.

PINSKY: Let me ask you something. Let me ask you something. This isn`t a rock concert. This is people`s lives being acted out for us all to enjoy. Is that the word that these people are looking for? Enjoyment? I mean, what`s the fascination? Why the intensity of feelings?

CHAISSON: People are enjoying it. They`re coming from miles away. They all feel connected to this little girl. They`ve been following the story. There`s a lot of TV cameras here. I`ll tell you, one of the reasons I`m here is I`m in love with all the court TV women, Beth Karas and Janine Pirro and Ashleigh Banfield. They`re all just nice, they`re excellent reporters, very inspiring to watch them in the courtroom and doing their thing, but as far as the rest of people, yes, they`re here for enjoyment. Absolutely. It`s reality TV.


CHAISSON: It`s all about reality.

PINSKY: So, I get it that you have a crush on Ashleigh Banfield. I get it. Starting to make sense right now. But, Shawn, you actually were involved in the search team for the child, is that right?

CHAISSON: Yes, I was. Yes, I was.

PINSKY: All right. And is that what sort of got you sucked into this thing?

CHAISSON: Yes. I moved from Albany, New York down here to Orlando three years ago just as this all started. And the first thing when I opened the paper, I saw they were looking for volunteers to look for someone`s lost child, and I said, of course, I would do that. So, I joined the team. It`s Tim Miller`s Texas EquuSearch team that searched for Natalee Holloway. I joined that team. There were thousands of wonderful people out helping. It was an incredible experience.

PINSKY: Well, let me say this.

CHAISSON: It`s hard to explain.

PINSKY: Other than your affections for Ashleigh, it makes sense to me that you would be motivated to see this thing through given the attachment you had in this.

CHAISSON: Absolutely.

PINSKY: And indeed, you know, when you do think about the child that has been sacrificed to this, it`s hard to turn away. It`s hard not to want to see justice fulfilled.

CHAISSON: Absolutely.

PINSKY: I have 20 seconds left. Give me one quick answer to this question. Why are women so much more interested than men?

CHAISSON: I don`t know if that`s true. I don`t think it`s true at all. I think it`s pretty equal, to be honest. I think everybody`s interested.

PINSKY: OK. Well, all right. Fair enough. From here it looked like --

CHAISSON: Very nice talking to you.

PINSKY: OK, buddy. From here, it looked like there were mostly women in line. I know, a lot of women are interested in this, and I think to some extent we all have such disavowal of female aggression and the fact that this is -- we`ve all been helpless in our mother`s arms, to think that a mother could destroy a child, it`s just -- it bends our sense of reality.

Another incredible week in the murder trial. Remember, this is the child who we are here to serve justice for. Just don`t forget that. If you stay focused on that, this whole thing starts to make at least a little sense. Thank you for watching. We will see you next time.