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Casey Anthony Murder Trial
Aired June 13, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go now.
More and more grim testimony in the Casey Anthony murder trial -- a ring of death on hair samples, flies that feed on rotting flesh, and a haunting heart-shaped imprint from Duct tape found with the body.
I`m also asking what jailhouse letters say about defense claims of sexual abuse.
Plus, the cult of Casey. I`m going to analyze her infamy.
Let`s go get this figured out.
Hair and print experts presented some strong testimony in the Casey Anthony trial today. Two people testified about strands of hair and Duct tape which were found with the 2-year-old Caylee`s remains in the woods.
Let`s take a look at this and then we will talk.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An insect expert testified Saturday about tiny flies found in Anthony`s car trunk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you recognize the substance on the towels to be?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Decomposition of fluid.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The flies suggest that something began to decompose in the trunk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was little Caylee in the trunk of that car?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jose Baez said any insect larva could have been there because of the trash in the car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was talk of a heart-shaped residue on the Duct tape.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An outline of a heart appeared on the edge of that piece of Duct tape.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Heart-shaped stickers similar in size found at the Anthony home.
PINSKY: We`re going to get to more of today`s testimony in just a second, but I`ve got to address something that just cut through me from Saturday`s testimony. It was from an entomologist.
You know what an entomologist is? It`s a bug expert. And he said this on the stand -- hold tight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEAL HASKELL, PH.D., FORENSIC ENTOMOLOGIST: The source of the decomposing fluids, in my opinion, that were in the trunk could not have been in the trunk very long. Three, four, five days in the trunk of that car with that heat would have certainly produced enough of the purged fluids from the remains to have had the amount that would have been present to attract the flies that we had.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. This is the deal. There was a decomposing body in the trunk of Casey`s car for days.
Now, the skull was one thing, and it was disgusting, and I wasn`t about to air that so your kids could fumble into it. But you`re going to hear from an entomologist who says with great confidence that the kinds of larva and flies that were found there show for sure that a body -- and it was really very convincing testimony -- a body was there for three days, decomposing in the trunk of Casey`s car!
When you really -- if that gets through to you, if you really start to take that testimony and evidence in, it`s no longer sort of vague ideas about fluids and how long -- you really hear the fact that there was a body in the back of the car for three days. I don`t care if this was an accident. I don`t care who was involved in this. It takes your breath away. It takes your breath away.
And it`s back to -- again, I just want to remind myself and everybody else that there`s a little girl who needs to have justice served for her. And I get the feeling -- when I hear about that, I get the feeling there`s more than just Casey involved in this. I`m just saying. That`s sort of my latest thought, but certainly, Casey has got some explaining to do.
All right. You just heard a little bit about a heart-shaped residue which -- God, this stuff just gets so emotionally taxing to hear about somebody killing somebody, or being involved in the death, and somebody decomposing in the trunk, and then they throw them in the woods and put a little heart over the Duct tape. Isn`t that quaint?
Here`s another expert witness.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELIZABETH FONTAINE, FORENSIC PRINT EXAMINER: During my examination of Q63, an outline of a heart appeared in one of the corners on the edge of that piece of Duct tape. The outline of the heart resembled that glue or debris that, if you had been wearing a Band-Aid for an extended period of time --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Now here to discuss the significance of all of this is Ryan Smith, host of "In Session" on our sister network, truTV. Ryan, of course, is an attorney who has been in the courtroom since the trial began.
Also joining me is Stacey Honowitz. She is a Florida prosecutor. Stacey is also an author.
Ryan, I`m going to start with you. We`re going to get to the hair in just a minute.
What about the tape and that heart? Is that a big deal?
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: It very well could be a big deal, because this witness analyzed the Duct tape that was with the remains and found residue that emulated that heart. Now, just two days ago, on Saturday, somebody testified that these similar heart-shape-type sticker was found in the Anthony home near Casey Anthony`s room. So this could be big for the prosecution because it allows them to connect heart stickers that Casey Anthony may have had to Duct tape and residue on some of that Duct tape that was found at the scene.
You see the prosecution here trying to make that connection between Casey Anthony and Caylee`s death.
PINSKY: Ryan, anything cut through to you in the testimony over the last couple of days?
SMITH: Yes, it really did. The entomology that you mentioned really ends up being very important, because not only does it show that there was a body in that trunk -- at least that`s what the prosecution wants to show -- but the entomologist then said that the body then could have been in the woods for six months.
And, Dr. Drew, this is why this is a death penalty case, because you think about a body being in the trunk of a car, as disturbing as that sounds, and then put in the Woods, and being there for months, that`s the kind of thing where prosecutors say this is heinous, atrocious and cruel. This is the kind of thing that we need to address if somebody is found guilty with the death penalty, and that`s why this becomes so disturbing.
PINSKY: And a mom who is partying and lying, and that`s where you get -- that`s where you all end up looking at this case and being unable to turn away.
The judge, Judge Belvin Perry, indicated that the trial is ahead of schedule, believe it or not, despite recessing earlier today. He cut the courtroom short today.
He said the prosecution should be able to wrap up its case in a day or two, and attorneys could begin their defense of Casey Anthony as early as tomorrow. He believes the jury could get the case as early as June 25th.
We, of course, will be there every step of the way.
The timetable could change if Casey takes the stand.
So, Stacey, my question for you is -- this is something that keeps coming up over and over again in -- do you think it`s likely that she will take the stand?
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Well, quite frankly, Dr. Drew, I don`t see how she`s going to get out of taking the stand. And that`s because of her attorney`s opening statement.
Now, remember, in any criminal case, the defense has a right not to do anything. They could sit there, they could read the newspaper, they could do crossword puzzles. It`s the state`s burden to prove the charges beyond to the exclusion of every reasonable doubt.
But in this case, as all of your viewers know, Jose Baez stood up in front of this jury and basically told his theory of the case. And his theory of the case can only be brought forth through Casey Anthony. Everything else is hearsay, everything else is speculation, everything else is not to be considered.
It`s not evidence when the lawyer stands up and says it. It`s only evidence that comes from the stand, and that`s the testimony, photographs, expert witnesses. So it`s my opinion that she`s probably going to have to testify.
PINSKY: Stacey, well, let me interrupt you. Let`s say she gets up there and she gives a gory description of horrible, long-standing sexual abuse at the hands of her father and brother, and the father and brother get up and go, hey, that didn`t happen. Who do you think the jury is going to believe?
HONOWITZ: Well, we know, Dr. Drew. I mean, basically, I said she`s like the Joran van der Sloot of the United States because she`s been telling different stories every single day.
Her credibility is shot. So, realistically, if she gets up and takes that stand and starts telling these stories, from all that we`ve seen, it will be hard for the jury to listen to her and to believe her. So she really is caught between a rock and a hard place. And her lawyer really put her in this position, because instead of just attacking the state`s case by saying there`s no cause of death, and fighting through the evidence that`s presented, he put a theory out there, a theory that`s got to really be spoken about only by his client.
PINSKY: Right. Thank you, Stacey. You`re going to stay with us.
And, of course, thank you, Ryan.
So that`s the deal. There`s going to be no evidence, no cause of death, and a witness, or a -- Casey herself, who is a lying, lying, lying, lying, lying, lying, lying, despicable, as far as the jury is concerned, person. They`re going to believe her?
I don`t even think it`s going to serve any purpose if she takes the stand anymore, even though I don`t see where she can get around it.
All right. So we`re going to get back into the bugs in the car trunk in a minute, and at the crime scene, what that meant to Casey, the case against Casey Anthony.
And later, Casey`s jailhouse letters. We`re going to take a close look at those in just a second.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFF ASHTON, PROSECUTOR: Over your career, would it be fair a statement that you`ve seen thousands of hairs?
STEPHEN SHAW, FBI HAIR AND FIBER EXAMINER: That`s fair, yes.
ASHTON: Aside from this particular case, the Q12 hair, have you ever seen a hair with the decomp band that didn`t come from a corpse?
SHAW: No, I have not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASHTON: Let me present to you a hypothetical, that the body of a young child was stored in the trunk of that car for a period of time and then removed and deposited in another location. Does that fit with the entomological evidence you found?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That, again, is the forensic entomologist, bus specialist. And he, for some reason, cut right through to me today. Watching that footage is just -- certain stuff in this case, it just overwhelms you as it comes through. And then you get feelings of disgust and upset.
I think this is what keeps us all watching this thing. That, and the fact that Florida has this open policy where you can watch and see everything.
All right. His point was that Caylee`s remains were in the trunk of her mother`s car for days, and in the woods for months.
Here, more of what expert Neal Haskell told jurors on Saturday. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HASKELL: The specimens from the scene suggested in the absence of large numbers of the blow flies, that most likely, there had been an initial placement that had excluded these guys right off the bat. Because had the body been placed initially, immediately upon death out in this environment, we should have seen literally thousands of blow fly puparium left behind. And we didn`t find that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It is just so hard to listen to this.
Back to talk about this is Florida prosecutor Stacey Honowitz. And we welcome now Judge Alex Ferrer, host of "Judge Alex."
All right, Judge. The science here is compelling. What do you think we learned from the entomologist?
JUDGE ALEX FERRER, HOST, "JUDGE ALEX": Well, you know, from the entomologist, I got just another piece of evidence that convinces me the body was in the trunk. I mean, frankly, I didn`t need to hear from the entomologist.
We have heard from so many other witnesses who have identified the unique smell of decomposition in the trunk. We had the dogs alert on the trunk. We had Dr. Vass do his chemical test on the air in the trunk that confirmed the presence of chemical markers found in decomposition.
The entomologist, I mean, is just yet another piece of evidence saying the body was in the trunk. And that really hurts the defense, because it`s kind of hard to believe that a former police officer, George Anthony, would take his granddaughter`s body and put it in the trunk of a car in Florida. He knows what`s going to happen to that body in the trunk. That`s the action of an experienced person like Casey Anthony.
PINSKY: And Alex, I sort of put myself in the position of a juror, and I ask, why did this get through to me so much? Somehow the idea of the smell and the fluids and everything else were sort of abstract for me. Let`s say I`m a juror before, and I could have -- sort of thought to myself, well, maybe somebody threw something in the trunk and then took it out. This is evidence that something was in the trunk for several days.
And there`s just no avoiding that. And if I were a juror, is it common that certain things kind of cut through to some jurors and other things cut through in other ways?
FERRER: Absolutely. And a piece of evidence like that, where you have bugs basically feasting on the remains, or some of the remains of little Caylee Anthony, that reaches to the heart of the jurors just like the evidence that came out about the animals crewing on the bones of Caylee Anthony. So that`s powerful stuff.
PINSKY: Yes. Right. Each of us, I guess, respond in our own way, and this one got to me.
All right. Now, according to the expert who testified today, there were no fingerprints -- we`re back to the Duct tape that they found around the skull -- no fingerprints found on that Duct tape. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: In the report, you indicate that Q62 through Q64 had no fingerprints whatsoever.
FONTAINE: That is correct.
BAEZ: And this is including your thorough examination of each piece, backwards and forwards, correct?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right, Stacey. That has to have been at least one little good piece of news for the defense. Yes?
HONOWITZ: Well, listen, the state has been adding and adding and adding to these pieces of puzzles every single day, and certainly the bug expert coming in and all that abstract of hearing about a smell actually came to life with the bugs. In this case, with the fingerprints, yes.
I mean, I`m sure for a split second, Jose can think to himself, that`s one little step forward for us. But the bottom line is, the expert has reasons for not having fingerprints there. Certainly, it could be explained away, and certainly in closing argument a prosecutor can get up and say why certain fingerprints might not be found at scenes.
It happens in every case. Usually you will have a fingerprint person, even when you don`t have prints, just to be able to tell a jury of lay people why fingerprints might not be found. And in this case, that`s what you have. So, they might have thought that they progressed for a little bit, but in the big scheme of things, and this big puzzle --
PINSKY: Not a big deal.
HONOWITZ: -- and all these pieces coming together, I really don`t think it`s going to make a difference.
I`m polling all of my illustrious guests. For both of you, do either of you have a theory, for good or ill, what the tape might have been? I`ve heard many say it might have been the instrument of death. Are there other possibilities that you guys have thought of?
FERRER: I don`t know what Stacey`s view on it is, but I think it`s probably the instrument of death. I don`t see any reason -- you know, people say, well, maybe she chloroformed her so she could go out partying, and then put tape over her mouth in case she woke up. I don`t understand that. What are you going to do, Duct tape her hands, too, so she can`t pull the tape off?
I don`t see that. I think it is the instrument of death in this case. And it is consistent over her mouth.
PINSKY: Stacey, any theory? Stacey?
HONOWITZ: No, I agree 100 percent with Judge Alex. I agree 100 percent.
I never thought any differently. When the prosecutors brought their theory forward, and in their opening statement they talked about it being the weapon of death, the bottom line is, I absolutely think that`s what it was used for. It`s premeditated, it`s calculated. It`s cold and calculated.
PINSKY: Oh, my God.
All right. Well, decomposing bodies do tell tales, as we heard in court. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HASKELL: The source of the decomposing fluids, in my opinion, that were in the trunk could not have been in the trunk very long. Three, four, five days in the trunk of that car with that heat would have certainly produced enough of the purged fluids from the remains to have had the amount that would have been present to attract the flies that we had.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Judge Alex, they seem to be going at the forensic science from every which way. Is that absolutely necessary? Is that typical for the state`s case?
FERRER: Well, I`ll tell you what, the prosecution wants to win. And this is a circumstantial evidence case. And the last thing they want to do is leave a stone unturned and have an acquittal or a really small lesser.
So they`re going to go with guns blazing. And, you know, people say, well, I can`t believe they put this evidence in, or that evidence in, because that could result in a mistrial. If I`m them, I`ll deal with the issue of a reversal later on. I want to put on the best case and go for the win. And that`s what they`re doing.
PINSKY: Stacey, I have just 20 seconds left. Any last -- go right ahead.
HONOWITZ: Here`s what I think is -- oh, I`m sorry. I just think that nowadays -- I mean, I`ve been trying cases for over 20 years. People watch CSI New York and Miami, whatever. They want that CSI. Jurors want that forensic science evidence.
Like the judge said, in a circumstantial case, that is what really hits home, and that`s what they can hang their hat on. And that`s why I think it`s so important for them to admit all of this evidence.
PINSKY: Thank you, Stacey.
Thank you, Judge Alex.
I`ve got to tell you, it just cut through to me today all of a sudden.
Next -- thank you, guys.
Next, I`m going to take your questions. I`ll have some answers about Casey. Do you believe her story? If you do, tweet us at Dr. Drew HLN.
And later, the cult of Casey. This is cult-developing. Her status is sort of -- well, it`s not a rock star. It`s more nefarious figures.
I want to understand what`s going on here. We`re going to look at that, the cult of Casey.
And, you know, by the way, we`re all kind of contributing to it. So we`re going to take a good look at it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, DEFENDANT: I, as a mom, I know in my gut. There`s the feeling as a parent. You know certain things about your child. You can feel that connection. And I still have that feeling, that presence. I know that she`s alive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: (INAUDIBLE) flies to be found in trash?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Garbage.
BAEZ: Garbage. And they were collected from a garbage bag?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It says trash bag.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Well, that was one of the lighter moments in the trial, if you could call it that. I`m going to analyze that a bit later.
It`s interesting. No matter what the testimony, you all have really made up your minds about Casey. I kind of have, too.
Let`s get your calls.
Maggie in Florida, what`s going on?
MAGGIE, FLORIDA: Dr. Drew, do you think Casey is trying to bring focus back to her when she shows emotion? It seems like she`s saying, poor me, I`m upset to the point of being ill. I think she has been the center of attention in the family so long, she can`t stand to be pushed aside.
PINSKY: Well, the one thing, Maggie, I would say is, just compare her behavior against Cindy`s. Don`t we all feel like we would behave the way Cindy did on the stand in the face of all this shattering testimony, rather than the kind of cool way that Casey seems to be behaving? That`s the one thing, that`s the one acid test for me.
Jo commented on Facebook, "We won`t know whatever really happened in this case, but at least we can recognize what psychopathic behavior is and how to protect our children from those persons."
Great point. I think, as always, media is a an opportunity to go to your kids and say, let`s look at this together, let`s try to learn from it. There are people out there who lie and distort and manipulate and are dangerous. And look, they may not look so dangerous on the outside.
Good learning opportunity. I agree.
Let`s go back to the phones.
Cynthia, in Florida, go ahead.
CYNTHIA, FLORIDA: Dr. Drew, let me tell you something.
CYNTHIA: When a woman is seriously crying, she does not dab gently at just the underside of the eyes. That`s what you see when an actress attempt to conjure up the appearance of emotion without disturbing her eye makeup. Women jurors will immediately pick up on this poor performance.
PINSKY: I think I heard you say will jurors pick up on the poor performance? Yes, I think they will.
Cindy tweeted this: "I think Zanny" -- that`s Zanny the nanny -- and, of course, my old theory is that it`s Xanax -- "took over Casey`s personality when she killed Caylee. Your thoughts on Multiple Personality Disorder?"
Well, we usually don`t even call it Multiple Personality Disorder any longer. It`s called Dissociative Identity Disorder. And although people with DID evoke fantasies of violence, they are not typically violent. And so, to sort of jump to that I think is quite a reach.
Lastly, on Facebook, "I think Casey is narcissistic because her parents keep fixing her mistakes."
Let me not read the rest of it and just go to an answer here and say look, you guys, if you have kids out there, this is a great example of what potentially might happen if you rescue your kids from the consequences of their behavior. Your job as a parent -- remember this, guys, parent is not a fun job. You`re not the friend. You need to bring the ax down as a parent many times and create consequences so kids can learn to struggle with life and not get this grandiose sense of entitlement that we all believe Casey has.
Remember, you can reach us 24/7 on Facebook and Twitter.
Later, Casey and celebrity. Does she love or hate all the attention?
But first, Casey and the shocking allegations about sexual abuse. Look at this tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: This child, who at 8 years old learned to lie immediately, she could be 13 years old, have her father`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth, and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOICE OF JEFF ASHTON, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: Have you ever sexually molested your daughter, Casey Anthony?
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: No, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: One of the biggest bombshells of the Casey Anthony trial was the defense attorney`s declaration that Casey had been sexually molested by her father, George and her brother, Lee. Now, this claim has not only been substantiated with any evidence, both claim this is completely untrue.
So, my question is, can an attorney simply make such a claim in court or must they, at least, make an attempt to prove this? Is this defense strategy a good or real strategy or just a distraction? Here to take a closer look at the law and this strategy are criminal defense attorney, Meg Strickler and Lisa Boesky here with me in the studio as clinical psychologist, as well as Stacey Honowitz, Florida State prosecutor. She is still with me.
Stacey, all right, now, tell me, can an attorney, while defending his client, make any claim he wants without any attempt to substantiate it?
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Well, I mean, certainly, they cannot because that`s a fraud (ph) upon the court. If they`ve spoken to their client and their client has informed this information, this is what they`re going to get up and say. Do they have to substantiate it? They don`t have to do anything, like I said in the beginning, but the bottom line is, if they want to try to get their client off of the charges, they`d better be able to back it up somehow, because like I said earlier, the judge reads an instruction, and the judge says what the lawyer say is not evidence.
The only evidence you`re allowed to deliberate upon is what comes from that stand through testimony and through other evidence. So, the prosecutor has a very precarious position. He can`t get up and closing and say, you never heard, you never heard, you never heard from, because he can`t comment on the defendant`s right to remain silent, but certainly, there is a way for a prosecutor to convey to the jury that whatever the lawyer, the only evidence you heard about this is from the lawyer`s mouth, and that`s the way to --
PINSKY: Let`s say they do get Stacey up on the stand. Stacey, is there any way to rehabilitate Stacey`s -- I mean Casey -- rehabilitate her to make her believable on the stand?
PINSKY: Go ahead.
HONOWITZ: I don`t know how you go about doing that. The only -- I don`t know how you go about doing that, but the bottom line is it has been a series of lies, lies, lies throughout this entire thing. She can get up and say what she wants. Well, they can ask for million questions or she can testify (INAUDIBLE) to how she was sexually abused, but those jurors are well aware of what`s transpire for 31 days, what went on, all the lies that she told her parents. And so, I don`t know how you really go about rehabilitating a client like that.
PINSKY: All right. So, Meg, let me go to you next. Meg, I hope you don`t mind me saying that you shared with me on this program before, that you, yourself, have been a victim of sexual abuse, and that you do believe you`re seeing the symptomatology of an abuse survivor here in Casey. What strategy might you use to bring that to the juror`s attention?
MEG STRICKLER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: To answer what Stacey is said, when I have a case like this, I have a theme of the case from the get-go, and that`s what Jose Baez has tried to do from the get-go in his opening statement. Now, generally, one brings that back in after every single witness, tries to censure some aspect of my theme in every single witness.
I haven`t really seen that here, but I`m hoping, still hoping, that in the defense part of the case, we`ll get to hear from opposing experts -- with respect to the scientific evidence, which isn`t very much, thank you, but also, hopefully, about her mind and what`s behind it. And I do think, as I`ve already said before, that she does absolutely show signs of abuse. How could she not? Look at her. She shows no emotion at all.
PINSKY: Well, help people understand what the implications that is, because I tell you what, one of the things about some people that have been severely victimized is that they bring on further victimization. And so, is she bringing that upon herself from all of us? And if so, how do we, as viewers, understand that?
STRICKLER: No, I don`t think she`s bringing on the victimization. I think that she`s so off kilter from what`s happened in the past. Now, remember, the entire family has shown signs of being off kilter, George, Cindy, and Lee. And might I add, when George was asked, have you ever sexually abused his daughter, all he said was, no, sir. Now, if you would ask me that, I would have said absolutely not, and I would scream at the jury so that they knew.
And you know, it`s also the prosecution did not ask that on cross, either. So understand, Casey is a mess from a long time ago. And I`m hoping that Jose Baez brings that out as part of what the defense`s case is going to be. And that is what one does when they do an opening statement. He does that. He says, you are going to hear.
The evidence will show when you hear my case, this is what transpired and this is what`s going to happen, and this was an accident, and I really fundamentally do not think she`s going to be convicted of first degree murder. No way.
PINSKY: Wow. Very interesting. Lisa, do you agree with what Meg is saying?
LISA BOESKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I`ve got to say, the chances that she`s been sexually abused are actually pretty high. One in four young girls had been sexually abused. So, it`s possible that she has been, and often times, it`s by the father. But even if we find out she has been sexually abused, that doesn`t mean she didn`t murder little Caylee.
It`s might not even be related to the case at all. What the defense is doing is actually pretty smart, because they only need one juror who may have some experience with sexual abuse who might look at Casey and say, you know, I don`t know but --
PINSKY: Like Meg.
PINSKY: Or some of the way Meg is looking at it.
PINSKY: But let`s talk about that for a second, because I know every time I bring up the possibility, again -- I want to keep reminding everybody that like you all at home, I`m just trying to understand this thing. I`m disgusted, I`m angry, I have all the same feelings that you have, but, you know, I can be wrong. And if I`m wrong, I learn something. So, let`s keep an open mind periodically even within our outrage and disgust --
BOESKY: But think about what the defense is trying to do. Not only is George a molester, not only did he molest her which may or may not be true, but they`re also saying that he is basically throwing his daughter under the bus, letting her go on trial towards the death penalty, and he`s just sitting back letting that happen. That when he, you know --
PINSKY: And participated in hiding something in outrageous way --
BOESKY: He`s the one who said I smell a decomposing body. If he was trying to cover it up, he probably shouldn`t be making statements like that. So, although, he may not be father of the year, I think it`s going to be hard to convince this jury that he`s that much of a monster, but, the defense is smart. If there`s someone on that jury who has experience with sexual abuse, they may be empathic towards her, and maybe, it will keep her from getting the death penalty.
PINSKY: You`re the mental health profession. You`re working for the defense. What are you going to tell the jury that`s going to create that doubt?
BOESKY: Oh, to create that doubt, you can say, well, what the research shows is that a lot of women behind bars has been sexually abused. That she shutdown her emotions, that she is numb, that she is under his control, that she is at high risk. We know that some women who have been sexually abused use drugs or alcohol, which we`ve seen her partying, that they get into trouble with criminal behavior. We know of her forgery and stuff with money.
PINSKY: OK. So, you`re going to bring all that -- again, more circumstantial stuff. Stacey, what are you going to do if that of a mental health professional gets up and starts casting those sorts of questions?
HONOWITZ: Really, well, I`d like to know where their data is, where their research is from. I`ve been prosecuting sexual battery cases for over 20 years. I don`t think I`ve ever had an expert say that this is the type of reaction -- that their child might die accidentally and they go off partying and do everything to avoid having to deal this. I mean, quite frankly, you`re going to be hard pressed to find a medical expert, I think, in the state of Florida, that`s going to come on and say that all of these are symptomatic of a person who`s been sexually abused.
And also, I might remind you, there is a letter that she wrote in jail that saying that she doesn`t know if her father ever -- she thinks maybe he might have done something to her, which is a little bit different than Jose Baez getting up in front of a jury and saying that he put his private --
PINSKY: I have that letter.
HONOWITZ: His penis in her mouth.
BOESKY: OK. Well, that`s something you might --
PINSKY: OK. You`re right. You`re right. And Lisa is jumping out of her -- I got to say. Lisa is jumping out of her skin. OK. Let`s see the letter. Let`s put the letter up there. It`s wrote while she was in prison. This was to a fellow inmate.
Here it is. "I was to blame for my own brother walking into my room at night and feeling my breasts while I was asleep." I was to blame? "I think my dad used to do the same thing to me, but when I was much younger, I woke up feeling both sore and sick to my stomach the way I used to feel growing up." Now, Lisa.
BOESKY: Now, again, remember, even if she was sexually abused, and we don`t know whether she has or not, she still could have murdered her daughter. The two are not connected.
PINSKY: Yes, yes. I get it. That`s what Stacey said, but Stacey, one last thing before I let you go. I`ve got about 30 seconds here. What is with this sunshine law in the sunshine state of Florida which is the reason we`re able to look in at all these nefarious aspects of this case. Everything is open to the public in Florida, is that right? The sunshine law, really?
HONOWITZ: Yes, it`s a hundred percent -- yes, you hear about everything. You`re allowed to go in. You can sit in the trial. That`s why there`s a stampede every day of people wanting to go in. We are fascinated. It`s very interesting. People always try to get out of jury duty. You always find people raising their hand, I don`t want to sit. I have news for you. There`s people that are dying to sit on juries that want to sit in on a case like this. It`s fascinating, it`s interesting, and it`s real-life dysfunction of what you see, and it`s from -- it`s interesting.
PINSKY: Well, we tend to keep that stuff confidential usually in my world, but thank you, Stacey Honowitz. Thank you, Meg. And, of course, thank you, Lisa. You`ll be staying with us.
Coming up, the cult of Casey. Some say she`s playing to the cameras. I`m asking what`s her relationship with the media and her fame? We`re also going to hear from my jury later in the show.
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VOICE OF JENNIFER WELCH, CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATOR: On the scene of suburban drive, I collected over 390 pieces of evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did the majority of that consist of bottles and other types of trash?
WELCH: Yes, it did.
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NEAL HASKELL, PH.D., FORENSIC ENTOMOLOGIST: I have no question that body has been out there for many, many months. Based on the recovery from the scene, I believe I stated June and/or early July.
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PINSKY: Well, we struggle every day on this show as we all try to figure out Why Casey Anthony is so difficult to read. We watch her every move. Did she look at the mom on the stand? Was she coached? Were her tears sincere? Is Casey aware of what has been called her cult status, I wonder. Well, I think she is, and we`re going to hear about that.
Lisa Boesky is back with us, and we`re also joined by Matt Semino. He wrote a piece for the "Huffington Post" called "The Casey Anthony Trial: A cult of Infamy." In it, he says, quote, "Despite the proclaimed hatred of the media in Casey`s part, Casey has relished in its glare since the real- life thriller began." All right. Matt, I want to know what you make of Casey and her behavior of late.
MATT SEMINO, ATTORNEY AND LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Dr. Drew, I mean, I think she definitely knows that the cameras are there, that the public is watching. Every emotion in that courtroom is playing to those cameras, and it`s playing to the public. I really don`t see sincere motion there, and I see only emotion that`s being played to the media and for Casey Anthony, herself.
PINSKY: Were you a prosecuting attorney, yourself?
SEMINO: No, I`m not. I`ve done defense work, and I`m also a corporate attorney, and I`ve done white collar crime work as well.
PINSKY: I always like to take all my attorney`s, I guess, pulse on this. Do you have a read on Casey yourself? I mean, you see her play into the public. You see her sort of relishing the glare, but do you have a sense of what this is all about? One of the things that, for instance, Lisa and I were talking about is we both get this distinct feeling that there was an accomplice somewhere, too. Do you have any take?
SEMINO: I honestly don`t think there`s an accomplice. I mean, I think Casey is a self-absorbed woman. I think that she would stop at nothing to do, what she wanted to do. And she very much premeditated all the actions in this case, all the actions towards Caylee, and she covered up her steps. She didn`t do it in a very good manner, and now, she`s facing the consequences of it.
And I think the tears that she`s shedding in court are not, one, only for the media, but also, for herself. She shows no remorse towards her daughter. So, it`s really a perplexing situation, and think that`s why the public is so captivated by this story, because it seems as though, how could this woman who has a child not even care for the child but care more about the attention that`s placed on her.
PINSKY: Well, as long as you brought that up. My team here can do this for me. Rather than going to the letter, I want to go to this footage of her laughing that everyone has been talking about. There`s been a lot of sort of - I`ve heard -- this has been brought up to me several times in the last 24 hours or so that, in today, she was caught laughing in court at a bizarre moment where there were trying to distinguish between trash and garbage. There they are. Now, watch her.
I want to take a good look of this, because Matt was bringing up -- was questioning Casey`s -- sort of the voracity of her emotion. Now, here she is laughing and laughing, and she keeps covering her mouth, which is interesting, Lisa. It`s sort of a sign of shame, right? She`s ashamed of herself. Covering it again. Now, maybe, she just doesn`t like her smile or something. That happens, but the amount of glee that she is showing here, Matt, I want to go to you.
The amount of glee is almost kind of disturbing. I have a hard time - - I mean, I was criticized last week for putting a cowboy hat on in a moment when I just was trying to create some levity just to try to lighten the mood in this room. If I were Casey Anthony, I`m not sure I could even have that much glee. Do you have any comment on that, Matt?
SEMINO: I mean, I think that Casey Anthony knows, like I said before, that everyone is watching her. And her emotions are not born out of any remorse or sympathy for what has happened. She`s a very self-absorbed, narcissistic person. You can see that from the moment this case began. She would come out of her house when she was handcuffed, glaring into the media, into the cameras as though she is a superstar.
And in our culture, in the media, where we can focus on an individual with such intent as we have done in this case, Casey Anthony is absorbing that, and she has become -- personified that.
PINSKY: Yes. And narcissists certainly do -- certainly, they are pumped up by all that. Lisa, do you have a reaction about that, too?
BOESKY: Well, I think it`s a variety of things. I mean, keep in mind, this case has been going on since 2008. She`s been barraged with letters. She knows people are following her --
PINSKY: Well, listen to this. I mean, it`s funny you would say that. I`m going to show you some jailhouse letters. There`s something that`s interesting. She says, here`s a letter, let`s put it up full screen here. It says, quote, "I`m up to the thousands with positive letters and cards," meaning people love me. There are a couple of fellas who`ve either become infatuated with the celebrity that she has achieved. One is more hooked than the other. Is this what celebrities really have to deal with? Yikes, it`s sweet in a strange sort of way.
BOESKY: That`s what I`m saying. If you think about it, she`s this young, immature girl which we know. I mean, keep in mind, hundreds of kids are murdered by their parents every year and half of those are by the mothers. And a profile we often see is they don`t want the baby, they hide their pregnancy, they`re unmarried, they`re immature. And so here, she`s not unlike some of those mothers who`ve disposed of their child or killed their child, but the difference is, she has become a celebrity.
She has got cameras. She`s had cameras around her for years. People are watching every move she make. And the thing about America is that we feel like we know her. Even though, she doesn`t show us much, we project on to her.
PINSKY: That`s for sure.
BOESKY: So, some people think she`s a monster, some want to save her.
PINSKY: You`re right. Well, Matt, I`ve got one minute. Any last comment?
SEMINO: Yes, I mean, looking at the jailhouse letters, if you read them intently, it`s very obvious that Casey Anthony knows that she is a celebrity. She even talks about writing a book. She talks about all these people writing positive letters to her. And that`s really what this case is about. It`s how the media has transformed this woman, and she has transformed herself into a notorious celebrity.
And that`s really what the end game is. And unfortunately, Caylee, the innocent victim, has become lost in the whole shuffle.
PINSKY: Yes. Matt, please, well put. Thank you, Matt, and thank you, Lisa. Well put, Matt. The fact is it is about justice for a little girl. It`s the lovely sunshine law, though, that has shining a bright light on that little corner of Florida.
Now, when we come back, a grandmother who just spent her third day inside the Casey Anthony courtroom. She`s she`s also trying to bring some order into the line outside of the courtroom where there`s tons and tons of chaos. I think she may, in fact, be the Anthony Griffith to my Barney Fife that I`ve had in there.
Maybe, she`s the real muscle that Barney has been using, but again, always out to remind people at home that, ultimately, this is about a little girl whose life was just inappropriately cut off and cut short. It is one of the saddest things I`ve ever heard of. And today, with the entomologist brings it all the way home. Be back after this.
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PINSKY: It is everyday outside of the courtroom. And I, myself, have evidently become so consumed with the Anthony family that I just referred to, before we went to commercial break, Andy Mayberry, Andy Griffith as Anthony Griffith, without realizing it. So, my apologies to the fans of that television program, Andy Griffith. Anthony Griffith. Wow.
OK. Well, that`s the chaos outside of the courtroom and someone, besides my Barney Fife friend, back to Andy Mayberry stood up and took control of the confusion in the line outside of the courthouse. She is our guest and a member of what I call my jury.
Kathy Jennings is a grandmother of five who has been following the case very closely from the beginning. Kathy, welcome. You just spent your third day inside the courtroom. Now, first of all, how did you get the nickname, Sharpie Lady? Tell me about that.
KATHY JENNINGS, DR. DREW "JUROR": Well, I came to get a ticket for the courtroom on Wednesday, June 1st. There was no play (ph) in place. The security guards could not handle the crowd. It was mayhem. So, when I came on Saturday morning, I brought -- armed myself with nothing but a sharpie marker, and we started numbering our hands, and we came up with our own honor system.
So, we would allow people to leave and go to the bathroom, to leave and go move their car, and they were welcome to come back and get in line. When the Orlando police came, they honored our number system, and it worked. So, I came again this morning. You can see I`m still wearing my number. I was number 14. There was absolutely no chaos, no drama. Very orderly. Everyone who waited and got a number got in.
PINSKY: I hope you met my friend, Brett, who`s been deputized and hope he can help you out as well, but before I hear about that --
JENNINGS: Yes, I did actually -- I did.
PINSKY: Hold on. But I do have something actually very serious I want to talk to you about. You apparently have actually spoken to George and Cindy Anthony. I mean, I have not really spoken to anyone who`s made contact with them other than George`s ex-wife. How did you find them?
PINSKY: What kind of people are they? What do you think their emotional reaction has been to all this ugly testimony?
JENNINGS: Actually, I spoke to them very briefly in the lobby last week. And when my eyes met Cindy`s, the only way I can describe it is I could look through her painful eyes right into her soul. There`s no doubt in my mind the only thing she`s guilty of is spoiling her daughter and loving that baby.
PINSKY: And how about George? Anything there?
JENNINGS: Actually, when I held Cindy`s hand and told her that I wished God would give her strength, he patted my hand and told me thank you. I thought that spoke volumes.
PINSKY: And one last thing, Kathy, guilty or not guilty? Murderer, monster, or sick abuse survivor?
JENNINGS: I think she`s guilty. I don`t think it was premeditated. I think it was probably accidental, but I do think she`s guilty in any sense of the word.
PINSKY: All right. Kathy, thank you for joining me. Keep up the good work. Get my buddy, Barney Fife, in there with you. It`s going to be barney and sharpie, and you guys are going to create your own little utopia right there outside the courtroom.
JENNINGS: We are.
PINSKY: OK. Again, I want -- thank you, Kathy. I want to -- wow. What a scary notion, but, all right, anyway, I want to remind people, all levity aside that we are here trying to serve the justice of a little girl. Let`s see her pictures up here. Please, guys, show -- here we go. And that`s what we`ve got to keep in mind whenever we think about this case. That is what this thing is about. Thank you for watching. We will see you next time.